[SPEAKER_03]: Have you hit pause in your relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: Today we're talking to Dr. Lee Bakham about how to bring your marriage back together even if there's only one of you who's really interested in doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Alan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Relationship Innovation podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am Tara Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my name is EJ Kerwin and you know, one of the primary things we have heard over the years and whether that's at our center or people writing into the podcast or social media or whatever is like, what do I do if I want to change our relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not happy in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: but my partner isn't there.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't want to deal, they don't want to get help, they don't want to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so today we're super excited to talk to Dr. Lee Bokham.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's the creator of the Save the Marriage System and he's a nationally recognized expert on relationship resilience and marital recovery.
[SPEAKER_03]: For more than 30 years, Lee has helped couples around the world navigate crisis, rebuild trust and create stronger, healthier relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is super impressive.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's the author of multiple books, and I like I said earlier.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's the host of the Save the Marriage Podcast, so welcome Lee to a relationship renovation.
[SPEAKER_02]: AJ, thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to be here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and what, what not better expert to ask this question to, than to save the marriage for coach?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you help people when you have someone coming to you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, my partner doesn't want to get help, but I am just like, so miserable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we've seen it through the 10 years we've had our practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, help, what do you do, Dr.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to back up a little bit to get to that place because we've got to go with what happened and then we can talk about how you undo what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's let's start with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have this theory of the Paul's button marriage.
[SPEAKER_02]: And most of the time, well, let me say this almost always.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an accident that it happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: People mean to do what they do, but they don't know what's coming from that and so,
[SPEAKER_02]: If we track back, you know, people get married because they are so meddling in love with this person and they want to be with this person, the rest of their lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they have to get on with life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And life could be the kids or a career or lots of other things, you know, dealing with aging parents, that kind of thing that we kind of touch on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they hit the pause button thinking, we'll get back to us down the road once, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the problem is that's a creep, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's once the kids are in school, once they're at a school, once they're in college, once they're at a, you know, keeps on rolling out until time has passed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the problem is you can't pause a relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so as you are in any relationship, it's either growing and expanding or shrinking and really dying.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that pause button isn't a suspended animation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like the rocket ships that are in the science fiction movie where they punch the button and then people come back awake and everything's just right where they were.
[SPEAKER_02]: It begins to recede.
[SPEAKER_00]: Darn it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the problem is generally both people, now they're on these parallel paths and they talk about being roommates and all of that, but they're not touching base with each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when one person says, this is really painful.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other person may not be at that point because they're still distracted or because they're still thinking will be okay down the road.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we're already out of sync if that makes sense that already you're going to have one person realize that there's a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: really is it both kind of looking at each other and going hey we've got a problem let's work on it it's generally one person won oh gosh we're in trouble so that's what sets up the scenario you're talking about is that make sense absolutely it's like the way you set it is perfectly and it also reminds me just like in individual metaphor like after the holidays I'll get back on track
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, back on track after the holidays and I'll get my exercise and my healthy eating and then like you go so far over the holidays and you're just like why what's the point is that's a lot of work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, after the next holiday, after vacation, after an exact extending.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we do that lots of places in life and we do it with the best of intentions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So first that is a thing to understand for couples because a lot of times when a relationship is in trouble,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of finger pointing and they want to assign who's at faulted this and so just to clear that up Usually both people hit the pause button and both people are Responsible not at fault because you didn't know what was coming but responsible to decide what to do from there But one person can say hey, I'm going to start this process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that kind of brings us currently to your question
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love like the frame you did there is responsible versus at fault because I think that that's what you know, I mean we have a counseling center and and couples come in and it's they want us to tell like tell them who's fault it is right and I and I a big part of the process is getting people to come back to.
[SPEAKER_03]: individual accountability and and and looking at a system though that like you know this and there's some relief there I would assume right in that like no it's it's not anybody's fault it's just you're both responsible for not taking care of your relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we can even change it a little bit further, fault is always re-looking.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're looking at where you've been.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really find it helpful for me to be trying to get somewhere and be staring in the rear view mirror going, well look at what happened back there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at that curve back there.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just doesn't get us any further down the road.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are times when we have to say, how do we do some repair work for whatever happened because people do act out.
[SPEAKER_02]: from that painful disconnection, and so a lot of the symptoms we see that people point as the cause of their problems, their symptoms, the fights about money or kids or all these other pieces that can be the puzzles that people then want to say, who's thought was that?
[SPEAKER_02]: You've probably had the same experience I had in the office with people where
[SPEAKER_02]: you know they'll tell you one will say well this is what happened and the other goes oh yeah well this is what happened oh and there's just this ping pong match going on about oh yeah well and and I'm pretty sure if I just let them run it don't let it all the way back to the first fight they had in fact that's one of the questions I've often used is what is the first serious fight you ever had and when we get to the underlying issue behind that whatever it is about feeling like you don't have a voice or don't have control or you're not getting connection
[SPEAKER_02]: It's usually the same one they're still fighting about, they never solved it, and they just dragged it along, and so now we're playing the game of blame, which is always rearview mirror.
[SPEAKER_02]: Responsibility is saying, how do I want to move forward?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of my analogies often uses, you know, if your house is on fire, it is rarely helpful in that moment to be asking who lit this fire.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is much more helpful to be going, how do we get out of here safely, and what do we take with us?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: So after that, sure there can be some place of saying we need to do some repair or work about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in the moment of the heat, it's not particularly helpful or particularly accurate.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, but that kind of gets back to the topic a little bit, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, what happens if there's a fire in your marriage?
[SPEAKER_03]: And you want to get to, you know, safety and change and put the fire out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other person is like, there's no fire or they're warming their hands by it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, or this is comfortable.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm, I'm, I don't know about you, but I'm okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've heard that, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We've heard like, no, well, this is your problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what has happened is the established distance for one is maybe not what they want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you probably heard the same thing I've had where people are like, well, I knew we weren't where we needed to be, you know, I knew we weren't connecting the way we needed to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just didn't think we were that bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the other person's going, it's time to divorce.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that mismatch is often because of one person's become okay with the distance and the other person has become attuned to the disconnection.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we've got to,
[SPEAKER_02]: work to find that, which brings us to the question, so what do you do if you're the one who wants to?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about a couple of things I think are not particularly helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: One is forcing connection, trying to force the person to get closer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, that persevered distance or thing that we all learn somewhere and training.
[SPEAKER_02]: I call it the chase or spacer.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's your one person is doing the chase and the other is doing the
[SPEAKER_02]: where you move to it's the pacer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're a chaser or spacer and you want to be a pacer on either place, whether you're the chaser or the spacer, the better place is to be the pacer or going, how can I pace along and increase the connection?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the forcing connection is what we often hear, where some by says we need to do day night, we need to go on a big romantic trip, you know, they do something that's
[SPEAKER_02]: too much for the container to hold right then.
[SPEAKER_02]: The connection is just not strong enough to manage that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Down the road, absolutely that might be something.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in that moment of disconnection to say, I want super connection.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually mean to whoever was kind of comfortable and warming their hands by the, you know, the fire going on is suddenly going, whoa, and they move further away and they distance further.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have to work more from an invitational place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of that is about self-management because we can easily get pulled into the panic and that fight flight mode that is so easily triggered when you feel like something's threatened.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you feel like your relationship is threatened, this thing that you feel a commitment to is threatened, it can put you into fight flight and the unfortunate part of that is
[SPEAKER_02]: fight flight always needs you know an enemy yeah there's something not to some something out there but somebody beside you absolutely and so that's where we see a lot of the distancing and the over-engaging that happens in that process absolutely
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's just such a thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talk a lot about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like what a horrible thing it is to feel towards the person that you want to feel the most connected to the one point you are just on fire for to literally see them as a threat.
[SPEAKER_03]: See them as unable to, you know, to make you feel special like all of those things like it's it's heartbreaking, you know, it's heartbreaking when it happens and and, you know, as people who help couples it's heartbreaking to see where you can see these two people are like, oh, I see you love each other, but you perceive each other is the enemy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and it's going back to, yeah, the self management piece, because I remember 2014, Dr. Bachum, our twins are born, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been a marriage, they're a pest for 20 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, we're totally good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we're having twins, and we had, you two had two boys from his previous marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had four kids under five in a matter of a year and a half, because I fell in malleal on with this guy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just never forget this because this is a big part of like our model that we developed like EJ came through the door, and I'm like, I hate you I despise you, this is awful.
[SPEAKER_00]: You freaking gave me this stressful environment.
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you do to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: What did you do to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd never been so overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our twins had colloc by the way, and then EJ had to take over my entire case load, so he would work until nine at night
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember thinking, like, I am a monster, like why am I so angry?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, E.J., I literally said the word burnt toast.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's code word.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, when I say burnt toast, that means I'm not good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to say anything good.
[SPEAKER_00]: My body feels really bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just going to like excuse myself because I don't want to hate you and I don't want to resent you and I know this isn't your fault.
[SPEAKER_00]: But my brain is telling me that it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember like that was like the beginning of like we have to help other couples because that self management piece to go and walk away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wouldn't reinforce that resentment and overwhelm was so huge and it didn't matter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I could go and do like meditation or I could go and read in us magazine or I could go listen to a little Miles Davis which I love like brings me down.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was like that first part of my own self management is what
[SPEAKER_00]: even gave us the, we're here 11 years later, twins are 11, we're doing great, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Had to go through a lot of stuff, but I just remember that was like, I didn't want to be who I was in that moment, and I was like, I've got to stop or this isn't okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you're technique for that was to disengage so that you can then re-engage and from a different state.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is in the state many people use.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't even though they can fill the body ramping up, they're not able to disengage that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they're stuck in this overwhelm.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then they're either doing battle with their spouse or pulling hard on their spouse, which when those were happening,
[SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, it's pretty confusing for the spouse that you're trying to get back into connection.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's interesting, too, in that using your language here, the racer and the spacer.
[SPEAKER_03]: The racer, probably.
[SPEAKER_03]: The racer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chaser, spacer.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's correct.
[SPEAKER_03]: Chaser, spacer, or pacer.
[SPEAKER_03]: I imagine that the person who wants to get help, who wants to talk about it, is always going to be the chaser.
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, it's always going to that that's the person which then would make the other person want to go away.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've often said that the the chaser who is who is often watching if you're the spacer, you're not likely going to be looking up stuff on how to save your marriage or you're not listening to podcast or books.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just going, hey, I'm good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just need some space here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So almost always they're the chaser that's looking to get help and so they have to find a way of going, okay, I acknowledge what I'm doing, my intention of wanting to work on this, positive, the way I'm doing, maybe not helpful and I've got to learn how to pace.
[SPEAKER_02]: So back to your discussion, Tara, that process of going, I've got to disengage to bring down my own internal
[SPEAKER_02]: compass.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was a second piece that you kind of pointed to is you didn't want to make him the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you J didn't need to be the enemy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a it's such a temptation when they're just two.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so let's talk about a mindset shift that is really simple and is going to be as plain as day when I say it, but that is that the couples a team.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to always be going, what's the game that we're in?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we trying to win?
[SPEAKER_02]: For the two of you at that moment it was how do we get through this parenting craziness together as a team?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a different thing than why are you not helping me, you know, why are you not following me?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on here to have that mindset?
[SPEAKER_02]: I call it being a we, we are in this together, we're a team.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when teams are working at their best, they are covering for each other's weaknesses and set up pointing out what you're doing wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're trying to shore it up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I play Pickleball was playing way too long this morning and you know, when I'm playing with my partner, I'm like, we're the team and you make a bad shot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna go, hey, let's try again.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to criticize it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also going to be aware that maybe their bad shot was because my two shots back was the bad set up, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have to take some responsibility.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also going to just be watching going, what do I need to cover here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the team.
[SPEAKER_02]: The team's shift is important.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then when the chaser recognizes, oh, I need to learn how to paste.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then what do you notice about the dynamic?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it pull in the space or more?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you see?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, maybe couples coaching couldn't be good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or like, what do you notice when the chaser does start to do the internal pacing, if you will?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the space that the spaceer is creating, the faster somebody chases, the faster the spaceer is gonna go.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like, you know, on a highway, you need more lead time than you do on a road.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're gonna increase the time because the speed is up.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're gonna increase the distance there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you slow it down, they can also feel safer about coming back.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's an easier place to shift to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to, like, I have just a different identity now with space or chaser and pacer.
[SPEAKER_00]: A.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like, wreck the pacer in your 5k now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be thinking about Dr. Bokeham.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it, it, it also reminds me a little bit of like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes when we talk about the tool that Terry used the code word is that for the chaser that the code word is almost a loss for the chaser because it's like oh no I want to engage I want to engage and then that that space of like no like calming yourself down thinking about it coming back They don't like that because it because it halts them trying to get closer
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so scary because they're afraid they're going to lose this other person.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the balance in any relationship is two built-in fears that we both carry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Both people would carry the fear of intimacy, the fear of losing yourself to the relationship, and the fear of abandonment, of losing the person you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so those are intention and the chaser at that moment has their fear of abandonment activated.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so if they're hearing from me, you've got to back off.
[SPEAKER_02]: Part of their brain is going, I'll lose this person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not recognizing that exactly what they're doing is accelerating the loss.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're already doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's one of the kind of re-understandings that I try to help people understand, is that by pacing, they're actually increasing the potential
[SPEAKER_02]: for creating that connection they want.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's creating a safe energy for, yeah, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: So with that dynamic, does it put a lot of like more pressure on the chaser to be the person who becomes the pace or versus the spacer, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, so if the chaser needs to pace, what is the spacer need to do?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, in some ways, that's a question a lot of the time because the space is not listening, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not a part of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if both people can go, you know what, we really do want to get somewhere, just don't know how to do it, then to recognize that they're spacing is creating a distance that is counterproductive to getting to a long-term loving relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can also go, okay, I do need to do a pacing.
[SPEAKER_02]: years ago, I was doing a trail marathon for whatever reason I don't know was in my head, but I was doing a trail marathon out in the middle of nowhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my adrenaline was kicked in and I was running my pace way beyond what I should have.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm like, oh, this is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you're first a little bit and I went down and went, I'm going to cook myself here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why that pace are so important that both people have to find something that is a manageable pace together.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at this point, it may not be the closeness that either want.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they can begin to build, can they, can the person who has been chasing tolerate space better and can the space or tolerate closeness a little bit better if they're working together?
[SPEAKER_02]: If they're working alone, then the chaser needs to draw back to the pacer.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the big mindsets is can I be invitational with connection rather than feeling forced?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always telling people, if you hear yourself say, how do I make, get calls, force, my spouse to do anything, you need to back off, because that's not it, all invitational.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I like those words that you use.
[SPEAKER_00]: That actually is a good point because when we introduce code word to the couples that come see us for therapy, like some, I guess the chase would be like, oh my gosh, they're going to use their code word and never come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like actually there's an agreement, right, a agreement like, hey, we're going to take 30 minutes an hour and that both agree that they're going to come back and talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that fear of abandonment, like initially when they're like, oh my gosh, you can use code word and then leave and never come back and it's like no actually hang out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to agree that it looks like this, so you're not out of your window of tolerance and creating more toxic, anger, whatever, but you're going to agree that you come back and you're going to talk about in a way that feels more invitational like you said.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and it also creates a way to agree on what is actually a good pace, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, because one person would probably rather be 10 minutes and the other person would be 10 days three days and it's like, okay, can we agree together of what's a reasonable middle point here about coming back together?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think one of the things that is missing in the understanding of the chaser about the spacer is that same anxiety that they're feeling that their body isn't in a hyper-vigilant state.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true with their spouse too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they think that their spacer's like, oh, I'm cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to stay distant.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're doing it out of their own panic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the same way I was like, oh, each I used.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so bad, but I once called them a Buddhist mother effort.
[SPEAKER_00]: How dare you be so calm and really like when we started to process it?
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like flooded in his own way and he was more frozen.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but in that moment I would never have thought that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought he was just this cool calm collective or punishing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you will.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or punishing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or punishing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or punishing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That piece you put in there about they think they're punishing them or they think that so rarely is that actually true in A relationship that has the potential for health.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean there are toxic people out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really are Punishing but that's not general.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not the kind of common ordinary every day
[SPEAKER_02]: unhappy marriage that's disconnected.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a whole different level.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so to be able to also assume the better of your spouse is important in the midst of that teamwork.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's something, okay, here's something that's always been challenging for me when I'm working with an individual who's there because of relationship issues, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: and knowing exactly what you were talking about because you're dependent upon their report, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're dependent upon what they're saying is happening at home.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's like, how do you sort of like, how do you help that person know whether they are dealing with a toxic person?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you said, yeah, there are toxic people out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and there are, you know, abusive people out there, like when it's in that subtle sort of emotional communication realm, like how do you help them discern whether they just have a pacer versus they have somebody who know they're a stone wall or they're they're doing this to manipulate you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to tease out just for a minute before we get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You said the stone waller and a lot of people are going to relate that to John Gottman.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I've come to appreciate about Gottman's thing about stone wallers is that stonewalling is because you're flooded and what?
[SPEAKER_02]: has been twisted in the kind of the popularization of that is the stone waller has to change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Gottman's whole research is that if somebody is flooding, you have to be aware of what's going on from your side that's flooding that other person.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a dance together.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the stone walling is not a
[SPEAKER_02]: in the true sense of that word is not an aggressive thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a defensive, I don't know what to do here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that changes a little bit about, but I think the more telling is use the term manipulative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a better one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody to have clear evidence of the manipulation is more evidence of the potential for toxicity.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think unfortunately a lot of times in troubled relationships, there is a lack of clarity for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so if somebody feels like their spouse is toxic, it is often a good thing to talk to a therapist, to check that out, to see if somebody from the outside is going,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, this defense mechanism versus that sounds like there's a toxicity there.
[SPEAKER_02]: We just not real good in the middle of a marriage crisis of assigning a fair level of responsibility slash or blame on the spouse.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another kind of cousin of that is when I hear people say gaslighting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And helping them understand like, okay, like,
[SPEAKER_03]: what's gaslighting versus what's just a very different perception of an event.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that doesn't mean your partners like trying to manipulate you or is trying to make you crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: They might literally, I mean, because we've had moments where once we get through it, we realize like, wow, we just had so
[SPEAKER_03]: uniquely different perceptions of what happened in that exact same moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I truly feel and felt and perceived it in that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's perpendicular to the way you experience it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that doesn't mean that that I'm being manipulative.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just to take it one step further, there is dishonesty.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I research shows that we're all dishonest every day in some way, and so we've got that as a baseline, but gaslighting has, if somebody will say, well, you know, they, so they're spoused, something it wasn't true, and they said, well, they're gaslighting me, I'm like, no, they lied to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's not okay, but that's not the same as somebody cooking up evidence to make you feel something.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's so true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll say this because I've this couple of so far back, nobody would know who they were, but I had his guy who pretended to go to work every single day and this isn't the only one that's happened, so there could be multiple accounts of this.
[SPEAKER_02]: He go to a just to a parking lot and read a paper and just goof off all day and come home and talk about his workday.
[SPEAKER_02]: no work life ran through their savings ran through their retirement finally when the house was being foreclosed on and he kept saying oh no no no I put payments on it his wife finally went away maybe this is wrong he then had himself sent a creator the letter on letter hit and had himself sent
[SPEAKER_02]: a job proposal and he did that three times to keep her from taking action.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's gaslighting.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was building evidence to mess with her reality as opposed to him saying, oh, you know, I quit instead of I got fired.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be a lie.
[SPEAKER_02]: And still not helpful, but a whole different thing than what he set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Building.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see a lot of that on D-line under a mystery.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow, that's why I watched it, E.J.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, I just think that is, those are a couple of things, actually, even though that's a little bit off topic.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think we're incredibly useful for people to hear because there is like this sort of like real dysfunction in the pop culturalizations of certain terms.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think you're absolutely right about stonewalling and that was a great clarification on
[SPEAKER_03]: on gaslighting as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's useful to people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so funny because I can't tell you how many times we do consultations first to make sure a couple's like appropriate that it'll be, you know, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not like active DV or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll have like a little like sticky note slipped into my pocket, like my partner's a covert narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, okay, I see this like, but I do think like when you're watching things now like love is blind and all like the new date I could count like a hundred times a word gaslighting and narcissist is used and I just feel like I love that you're clarifying it in that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: because it just feels like that's just your go to now and it's like and then as I okay now I'm out of here and our whole thing is like listen you guys are in a place of despair suffering I don't know if this is gonna work but at least have some clarity first don't make a decision out of a flight fight freeze bond all the stuff for spons let's get some clarity let's see what's happening right and and then let's make that choice yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think a great sort of like wrapping up sort of way to look at this is because our originally topic was like, what do you do?
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're the one who once changed, your partner doesn't, we use that, that chaser and spacer metaphor to help people have sort of a construct to look at it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then so maybe the last question, because we hear this so often, is like, well, how do I know when I should just give up?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes, that's what you know when I should just let
[SPEAKER_02]: that is that is the tough question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get the question many times if somebody saying I would do your program work with you whatever do anything you say if you could guarantee me that I could say my marriage and my responses I can guarantee you what's going to happen if you continue on the track you're on that's that's what we can guarantee and the only way to figure out is something will work
[SPEAKER_02]: is to take action and there are two possibilities as it goes forward and that is that things start moving in a positive direction and that the other is that you get clarity and at some point you say, I've done all I'm willing to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think an important stopping point along the way is the point when you can look in the mirror and say, I feel good about what I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not every marriage is going to be saved, but what I think is incredibly tragic is people going, I regret I didn't try hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can walk away and go, I did what I could, much better than I regret that I didn't take action.
[SPEAKER_02]: So action leads us to the place of finally being able to say, okay, that's just as far as I'm going to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just remember feeling that about E.J., like I wanted to leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was so overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Bookham, like I wanted to.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, no, like, I am a therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to figure this out.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is information.
[SPEAKER_00]: So is E.J.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I, I mean, I was compelled to do it, but I'm just so grateful because so many people like leave because that suffering feels like so much, but if you can get through that and feel like I'm so glad I did that, whether that works out or not, like it just builds resilience and it builds, it just builds like confidence that like no matter what, I can handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we also know right, and I know you know this research, first marriage is about 48% 40 whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second marriage, it raises divorce rate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Third marriage is the highest divorce rate, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It follows us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So no matter what relationship you're in, like it's all about like recognizing what is it that I'm doing, that keeps following me, I could marry someone totally different, and the same stuff is happening, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love your work, and I know that we usually ask this in the beginning, but like what made you specialize with couples?
[SPEAKER_00]: We have so many therapists like why would you want to work with couples?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I love it, I've loved it for since I was 20 years old, but what made your heart want to do couples work?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I got to watch my parents and my grandparents have very loving connected relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: My parents are still happily married in their mid-80s, and so I had that experience growing up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I watched my cousins come out of broken-hunt.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, there are some cousins.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: They disconnected from the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: You talked about the lower rate as people go on.
[SPEAKER_02]: My uncle, I think, made it to six, and his possible seven.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not quite sure about one person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then he finally figured out something at the end of his life, he stayed married, but six or seven divorces and lots of pain and lots of other things along the way and watching that with my aunts, I watched the impact and how it extended really right there for three generations.
[SPEAKER_02]: It affected my grandparents, it affected my aunts and uncles, it affected by nephews, my cousins, and then I had
[SPEAKER_02]: one of my cousin's kids contact me wanting information about the family because there's been so much cut off.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a fourth generation effect from that original divorce.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that may be quite clear about the importance of marriage.
[SPEAKER_02]: Watching my parents may see the power of a strong marriage.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when I decided to be a therapist it just kind of I kind of routed to marriage and family work just because of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that because I came from a very broken, broken, traumatic childhood and I was like I know it doesn't have to be this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you came from like the secure, I know it could be this way and I was like I know it doesn't have to be this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love that I just always am so inspired by other humans that want to help.
[SPEAKER_00]: couples suffer less because it truly does impact our children, our families, and and we're change agents now in the generation all passed down, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's huge.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you thinking, E. J. I can tell you're deep?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just thinking about a couple things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, one thing that's always been cool is that I feel like primary relationships are just like the building blocks of our community.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's like, and when those are healthy,
[SPEAKER_03]: then all the other relationships is splinter out of it and that's kind of what you're saying what you witnessed within your family was that this portion of your family who didn't have those good foundations, just that it's like the whole building your house on sand.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just nothing to root into.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking about that and I was just also thinking about
[SPEAKER_03]: working with an individual is great.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when you work with a couple, it's like, it's happening right in front of you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is like just so compelling.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also like, you can really make an impact.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can make it right there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's just like super, you know, super cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's always great to meet another kindred soul in this, uh, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is, so if people like, oh my gosh, I love Dr. Bokam.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really want to like do his program.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to read some of his books.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how do our listeners will obviously have everything in our show knows, but how do they get in touch with you?
[SPEAKER_02]: So one of the cool things we just started is an app for people who want to unpause their marriage.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it's unpause your marriage.com that goes to the app and that is we created in ways a deliver content to them and keep them moving forward, which is what I really wanted.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you change those habits?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the pieces that has been helpful for people and we've gotten great reviews on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: A good starting point just to kind of touch several of the things I have because I have also have an assessment for people who are like, is there a possibility in my marriage?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, how do I know whether my marriage has capacity or not at all the GPS assessment?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can find that plus a link to my system at savethemarriage.com slash podcast you're listening to us on a podcast So savethemarriage.com slash podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll get you actually to all those possibilities and put you right on my web page Great all of those will be in our show notes So please if you're if you're listening to this and you're really connecting Please go ahead and check those out
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and thank you so much for being on our podcast today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your wisdom, your amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can feel your passion for couples, which I love.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as always, listeners take care of yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take care of each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.