WEBVTT 00:12.100 --> 00:16.083 [SPEAKER_00]: Pornography today looks very different than it did even a decade ago. 00:16.823 --> 00:29.111 [SPEAKER_00]: Algorithms now shape what people see, extreme content is more accessible than ever, and emerging technologies like AI are creating entirely new forms of exploitation and abuse. 00:30.212 --> 00:39.719 [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we're joined by Claire Maglin, professor of law at Durham University, and one of the leading experts on violence against women and girls. 00:40.519 --> 00:56.450 [SPEAKER_00]: Together, we discuss how pornography influences cultural norms, why certain behaviors are becoming increasingly normalized, the rise of voyeuristic and non-consensual content, and what AI could mean for the future of online harm. 00:57.584 --> 01:06.469 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever wondered how pornography shapes the way people understand sex, consent, and relationships, this conversation is an important one. 01:07.250 --> 01:08.550 [SPEAKER_00]: With that, let's jump in. 01:09.071 --> 01:12.733 [SPEAKER_00]: We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 01:14.476 --> 01:16.319 [SPEAKER_03]: Claire, thank you so much for joining me today. 01:16.379 --> 01:18.422 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you. 01:19.463 --> 01:27.615 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you introduce yourself and the work that you do as an expert on violence against women and girls telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got into this work? 01:28.036 --> 01:29.178 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you very much. 01:29.418 --> 01:31.199 [SPEAKER_02]: for having me on the podcast today. 01:31.499 --> 01:36.381 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Claire McGlin and I'm a professor of law at Durham University in the UK. 01:36.861 --> 01:45.024 [SPEAKER_02]: My expertise is around violence against women and girls and particularly online abuse and the legal regulation of pornography. 01:45.644 --> 02:02.621 [SPEAKER_02]: What I've done really for the last 10 years or so is I've seen how there's so many gaps in the law and the largest fails women so many times and what my work is doing is trying to identify those gaps and then work with others to strengthen the law to better protect women and girls. 02:03.802 --> 02:05.644 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, um, it's amazing. 02:05.684 --> 02:15.813 [SPEAKER_03]: And this work is so needed in the work that we do out fight the new drug, educating on her full effects of pornography, violence against women and girls is certainly a large part of the scope that we address. 02:16.694 --> 02:25.322 [SPEAKER_03]: When you look at the current digital landscape, you've talked about how porn today operates more like a tech industry than something niche. 02:25.862 --> 02:29.405 [SPEAKER_03]: How do algorithm shape what people see on porn platforms? 02:29.965 --> 02:33.989 [SPEAKER_03]: And why does that matter for the kind of content that becomes quote-unquote normal? 02:34.609 --> 02:37.451 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is a really important point, erase. 02:37.491 --> 02:43.176 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's really it vital that we understand that the porn landscape today 02:43.656 --> 03:02.373 [SPEAKER_02]: is so different from what it was 10 or 20 years ago and the algorithms are key to that as you see because 20 years or so ago an individual would maybe think about what sort of pornography do I want to watch and they then have to go out and find it and it would take quite a lot of effort but now 03:02.953 --> 03:13.336 [SPEAKER_02]: The pornography that most people watch is what's fed to them by the algorithms of these big porn companies and all of their aim and motivation is to make money. 03:13.876 --> 03:26.260 [SPEAKER_02]: So you get them trying to keep you engaged in the platform and they do that by feeding you more extreme content, more abusive content, very different content and 03:27.160 --> 03:43.877 [SPEAKER_02]: Just like with social media, this is what we get fed, so it's not necessarily an individual choice, so I think that's what's really important to understand it's the very large companies choosing what we want to see and then we're almost getting sucked into it. 03:45.157 --> 04:09.386 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the thing is, and you've probably found this in your work, people don't really like to acknowledge that, you know, everyone likes to think that, especially in pornography, they're looking at what they really like and what they want to see, and, and if you say to them, that's actually just what the big platforms are wanting you to watch, it doesn't feel right and it doesn't feel good, so it's sometimes quite a challenging message to get across. 04:11.059 --> 04:38.392 [SPEAKER_03]: right and it's so interesting because so many people accept that that's true for social media where they understand the algorithms rhythms a bit more but there is a gap that we've seen as well and understanding how that is true within pornography and we'll talk about this a little bit more in a moment but when we consider the age that so many people are exposed to pornography today those algorithms are dictating sexual templates rather than the other way around as you have mentioned 04:39.432 --> 04:43.916 [SPEAKER_03]: You've written about recurring patterns in mainstream porn today. 04:44.036 --> 04:46.818 [SPEAKER_03]: What are some of the most common patterns that you're seeing? 04:47.559 --> 05:07.055 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's, so when we talk about the patterns, I think that follows from what we've just been discussing as well, because instead of mainstream pornography being this kind of vast range of all sorts of different types of pornography, in fact, it's a relatively narrow, 05:09.596 --> 05:14.438 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I guess my work focuses on what we might call some of the more extreme material. 05:15.699 --> 05:27.524 [SPEAKER_02]: So patterns, you know, material around family relationships and incessed around adult actors who made to look like very young girls. 05:28.164 --> 05:39.996 [SPEAKER_02]: some of the material around strangulation, sometimes people call it choking particularly, and then, I guess, there's the whole range of kind of rape porn or non-consensual porn. 05:40.076 --> 05:48.284 [SPEAKER_02]: So, but I mean, that's just, you know, scratching the surface, as it was rough sex, rough porn would be another kind of category, really. 05:48.684 --> 05:51.688 [SPEAKER_02]: that could actually cover quite a lot of what I've just described. 05:52.149 --> 06:02.662 [SPEAKER_02]: But some of that will include the material, you know, to do with that spitting and gagging and, you know, the facials, lots of that sort of, yeah, material. 06:02.823 --> 06:03.023 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 06:04.924 --> 06:05.124 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 06:05.184 --> 06:13.327 [SPEAKER_03]: And so many people often think of those kind of categories as niche things, but really what we are seeing is they are patterns. 06:13.787 --> 06:25.671 [SPEAKER_03]: They are patterns that we're seeing across so much pornographic content that is so easily accessible online, which is different from, you know, pre internet pornography. 06:25.751 --> 06:28.592 [SPEAKER_03]: It really has escalated and changed in such a dramatic way. 06:29.332 --> 06:56.438 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to go back to choking specifically that you mentioned, I'm going to go, you've pointed out in your work that choking is often introduced without warning in real life encounters and that's something that we've heard about as well from individuals who have been, you know, on a first date with someone and they kiss and the teenagers and then the boy chokes the girl and says, well, I thought that's what she wanted because this is something that has been presented them as normal. 06:57.278 --> 07:03.654 [SPEAKER_03]: What does that tell us about how people are interpreting cues or expectations in the moment? 07:04.241 --> 07:28.163 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think this is a really interesting issue, especially when we talk about it in relation to younger people and maybe even teenagers, because some of the data, I mean, there's a survey from the United Kingdom that around a third to a half of those who are engaged in choking or strangulation aren't seeking consent in advance for that activity. 07:28.783 --> 07:56.994 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, on the one hand, that is shocking, it's really concerning, but on the other hand, it's also not surprising when you think about how just how common it is, because in pornography, it's presented as just like an ordinary, you know, another kind of standard part of sexual activity, not something that is so particularly serious, you need to discuss and get consent in advance. 07:58.054 --> 08:05.259 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess what I mean is I, it's not that I understand when people, it's mostly meant, don't ask for consent. 08:05.699 --> 08:12.444 [SPEAKER_02]: It's more just that in the cultural world we're living, of mainstream pornography, it's kind of understandable. 08:13.224 --> 08:13.384 [SPEAKER_02]: But, 08:14.640 --> 08:38.798 [SPEAKER_02]: But I guess the other point about that is that for for many women as well, though, they say they feel uncomfortable in this, you know, being choked or strangled, but it's still consensual, you know, so it's not that many women are seeing I was, you know, you know, forced or assaulted, but they're saying they're uncomfortable, and they didn't really want it and for me what this tells me is that. 08:40.189 --> 08:44.872 [SPEAKER_02]: Consent is not the be all and the end all around sexual activity. 08:45.533 --> 08:47.734 [SPEAKER_02]: Consent is like a minimum floor. 08:47.854 --> 09:01.824 [SPEAKER_02]: You need consent, but consent doesn't actually tell us what is ethical, what is good, what is positive, and any of those other things that one might look for in sexual activity, for example. 09:02.224 --> 09:06.728 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think people often talk about what we're going to like, to the dentist or something. 09:06.828 --> 09:07.188 [SPEAKER_02]: It's sense. 09:07.568 --> 09:12.151 [SPEAKER_02]: I can consent to getting my teeth drilled and adenters, but I don't really want it. 09:13.112 --> 09:21.397 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm so consenting that it's not actually wanted and I think we maybe need to think about consent in that way in some of these contexts. 09:22.882 --> 09:23.182 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 09:23.702 --> 09:35.888 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think there's, um, I'd love your take on the idea that some women, especially young girls will consent to having an intimate, um, experience with a partner. 09:36.569 --> 09:47.034 [SPEAKER_03]: And so because they consented to having an intimate sexual experience, there's this idea that they've blanket consent to any and every act that that may occur. 09:47.674 --> 10:12.435 [SPEAKER_03]: in that instance and, you know, someone's idea of what they're consenting to might be kissing or making out and then suddenly they're being choked or something they certainly didn't consent to but they've consented to this experience and if that just is what they believe is part of it without knowing, especially for young girls, I think that's where things get really messy in terms of understanding consent within those instances. 10:12.496 --> 10:13.897 [SPEAKER_03]: What are your thoughts about that? 10:14.417 --> 10:31.286 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right and I think what it means is we don't have and many young people don't have as rich enough and understanding that consent isn't just something that yeah you give it say the beginning of an of an encounter and that's it forever after. 10:31.826 --> 10:41.171 [SPEAKER_02]: It does need to be something that's ongoing and you know you're checking in with with your partner about about what's 10:43.432 --> 10:47.515 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it also goes to, you know, when we've just talked about a rough sex. 10:47.575 --> 10:51.639 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's there's research that's done with, with, you know, younger people. 10:51.679 --> 10:53.480 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, what do you mean by rough sex? 10:53.640 --> 10:59.485 [SPEAKER_02]: And people give all sorts of different answers, you know, and because it's such a huge sort of category. 10:59.985 --> 11:19.833 [SPEAKER_02]: But what that means is that even if you had a discussion with someone about, you know, Ross Act, or just like, that means so many different things to different people that, you know, you would need to, or what ought to happen is deeper engagement and what that actually means, because, yeah, what Ross Act means, I mean, let alone weather. 11:20.453 --> 11:29.681 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's, you know, so much of that can be problematic, but even putting that to one side for now, you know, there's just no agreement on what that actually is. 11:29.701 --> 11:44.695 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I mean some of that's about education isn't it, it's about trying to get young people to better understand what consent is, although like I say, then going beyond just the minimum consent to what what does someone actually want to do? 11:46.377 --> 11:59.261 [SPEAKER_03]: right and I'm glad that you brought up terminology specifically because you've written about how using a language like choking can actually soften what's happening physically. 11:59.741 --> 12:04.703 [SPEAKER_03]: So how does that kind of language shape how people process the experience afterwards? 12:05.523 --> 12:18.447 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so many people before me have talked about this, the use of the term chalking, which is what's often really common, but actually what we're talking about is triangulation. 12:19.927 --> 12:22.608 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that term is not used because 12:23.268 --> 12:27.689 [SPEAKER_02]: Frankly, it sounds concerning, doesn't it? 12:27.829 --> 12:37.711 [SPEAKER_02]: What you called someone who engages in that, you called them a Strangler, and we're used to that term being used in kind of scary movies, isn't it? 12:38.171 --> 12:43.413 [SPEAKER_02]: So chalking is kind of used almost to minimise it in a way. 12:43.673 --> 12:45.593 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think what that is, 12:46.084 --> 12:49.969 [SPEAKER_02]: It just adds to the sense that this is okay, and this is normal. 12:50.550 --> 12:56.016 [SPEAKER_02]: And then if you are, say, a young woman who afterwards is thinking, you know, this is really uncomfortable. 12:56.057 --> 12:57.238 [SPEAKER_02]: I really don't like this. 12:58.380 --> 13:10.111 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's called Chalking and everyone talks about, you know, Chalking me on TikTok or or, frankly, you know, you go on to Amazon and it's Chalking me Daddy T-shirts and all the rest of it. 13:10.592 --> 13:13.414 [SPEAKER_02]: But am I supposed to actually want and enjoy this? 13:13.474 --> 13:17.618 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, I think the language of Chalking doesn't help us in that debate. 13:17.658 --> 13:21.042 [SPEAKER_02]: We need to try and talk about strangulation, frankly. 13:22.563 --> 13:22.823 [SPEAKER_03]: right. 13:23.244 --> 13:28.587 [SPEAKER_03]: And for someone who may be thinks those two terms are interchangeable, can you describe the difference between the two? 13:28.887 --> 13:34.470 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so strangulation is the technical term for the external pressure on the neck. 13:35.051 --> 13:39.673 [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas choking is described getting something stuck in your throat. 13:39.813 --> 13:45.417 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, if you, you eat something and you're coughing, that's choking. 13:46.117 --> 13:55.487 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, whereas, uh, yeah, the external pressure on the neck is the strangulation, um, so that's the, that's the medical difference between between the two. 13:57.209 --> 14:07.214 [SPEAKER_03]: right, and that really is a very significant difference in what someone's experiencing, especially without any discussion about it or knowledge about it prior to it occurring. 14:08.114 --> 14:16.998 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're just seeing rates of this type of pornographic content and the influence it's having on individuals increase pretty dramatically. 14:17.038 --> 14:20.840 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it is really important that we're having these nuanced conversations about what that is. 14:21.340 --> 14:35.143 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask you about there's a recent study that assesses rates of self-reported sexual aggression of men and not highlights behaviors like persistence or continuing to escalate physically even when there isn't clear verbal agreement. 14:35.984 --> 14:45.246 [SPEAKER_03]: It says that 91.5% of 18 to 34-year-old men quote reported having recently used at least one of the strategies to get a woman to have sex 14:49.747 --> 14:56.393 [SPEAKER_03]: Most of these occasions, 65% resulted in successfully forcing the women into sex and quote. 14:56.954 --> 15:02.799 [SPEAKER_03]: So in your view, what shaping what are those behaviors are seen as normal versus crossing a line? 15:03.868 --> 15:20.555 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, without a doubt, I mean, the pornography and the pornographic landscape is quite likely shaping those behaviors because what we see in mainstream pornography and it's important to keep emphasizing that in a way, isn't it? 15:20.595 --> 15:28.138 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the, I'm talking about the pornography that's on the largest porn sites that's fed to millions of people every day. 15:33.840 --> 15:46.394 [SPEAKER_02]: sleep, waking someone up after the sleeping or someone who's perhaps drugs or sexual activity starts without consent and then the the woman is seen to to enjoy it. 15:46.474 --> 15:48.957 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a and it's 15:49.483 --> 16:00.469 [SPEAKER_02]: and the kind of, sorry, what else that that study is emphasizing is the kind of, it's aggression, it's the pressure, it's the consistent pressure that eventually you'll get there. 16:01.089 --> 16:05.111 [SPEAKER_02]: And, and of course, that's a key factor of a lot of pornography. 16:05.551 --> 16:09.794 [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, even when the women are seen to object at first, 16:10.795 --> 16:11.936 [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually they love it. 16:12.276 --> 16:19.666 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the kind of story and so again in a way that's that's what men are taking on board now 16:21.338 --> 16:31.004 [SPEAKER_02]: If you were talking about much younger men, I'd be slightly more understanding in the sense of, you know, that not yet developed a sense of what more of what's right and wrong. 16:31.064 --> 16:42.232 [SPEAKER_02]: But by the time we're getting to, you know, older men, late teens and into their 20s, and they're, they're using these strategies, they know what they're doing, you know, they do. 16:42.392 --> 16:46.575 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though they're getting the, the norms and the ideas from porn, they're still know what they're doing. 16:47.255 --> 16:49.897 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a, it's a really disturbing study in that sense. 16:51.410 --> 16:59.174 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you brought up the concept of sleep porn and there has been more attention recently on sleep porn and voyeuristic content. 16:59.934 --> 17:05.077 [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think allows that kind of content to exist on mainstream platforms without pushback? 17:06.080 --> 17:07.381 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very interesting isn't it? 17:07.442 --> 17:16.231 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a sense that sleep porn is not actually rape porn, but that's what I was call it. 17:16.651 --> 17:21.737 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's been lots of, you know, working campaigns around to get, um, 17:22.977 --> 17:29.800 [SPEAKER_02]: to criticize rate porn and actually on some of the mainstream sites, you can't actually search now for rate porn. 17:30.040 --> 17:32.581 [SPEAKER_02]: It will bring up an error message. 17:33.041 --> 17:37.543 [SPEAKER_02]: But what you can find is this sort of material you're talking about sleep porn. 17:37.563 --> 17:40.865 [SPEAKER_02]: So they're asleep and you wake them up with sexual activity. 17:41.505 --> 17:41.605 [SPEAKER_02]: And 17:43.317 --> 17:48.938 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I suppose it's cyclical, so you see that in porn, so people don't take it as seriously as, as if it's rape. 17:49.399 --> 17:55.820 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't take it as seriously as if it is rape, and so you see it, you see it on the porn sites. 17:56.680 --> 18:10.424 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think what I find most surprising about it as well is that some of the largest porn sites, they have terms and conditions in porn hub, has this where they actually mention it, and they say that it's not allowed unless 18:11.144 --> 18:15.085 [SPEAKER_02]: that actor wakes up within a reasonable timeframe. 18:15.705 --> 18:17.205 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, do you know what? 18:17.365 --> 18:19.106 [SPEAKER_02]: No sexual offense law, I know. 18:19.126 --> 18:22.386 [SPEAKER_02]: It says, it's only rape. 18:22.606 --> 18:26.167 [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't wake her up within a reasonable time, it's always rape. 18:26.667 --> 18:30.108 [SPEAKER_02]: If you have sex with someone, when they're asleep because they've not consented. 18:30.848 --> 18:34.089 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I don't understand it. 18:34.209 --> 18:40.230 [SPEAKER_02]: You're right that there's slightly more attention on this now, particularly in Europe, 18:41.130 --> 18:52.193 [SPEAKER_02]: a case in France of Giselle Pellico, who's husband, Dr. and, you know, large numbers of Mayan had sex with her while she were raped her, rather, while she was asleep. 18:53.053 --> 19:00.915 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was looking at, you know, her ex husband was looking at sleep porn and talked about that in advance. 19:01.015 --> 19:03.135 [SPEAKER_02]: So, there is more recognition 19:09.437 --> 19:17.440 [SPEAKER_02]: But for some reason, yeah, it's still on those websites and there's all sorts of versions, you know, it's kind of be asleep sleep. 19:17.460 --> 19:23.603 [SPEAKER_02]: There's also things called time stop porn where, you know, the woman kind of stops and freezes. 19:23.883 --> 19:28.005 [SPEAKER_02]: And the man could do anything to her which is just kind of another variation of it really. 19:29.835 --> 19:50.703 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think with these things, you know, with Josel's case and, you know, the recent CNN piece has covered this drug facilitated rape essentially stories about how many different women have experienced these horrific and horrific things with a partner they trusted and then. 19:52.083 --> 20:03.661 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, finding out what has been happening to them that they're not even aware of because they are drugged or medicated to the point where, you know, they know something has happened to them, but they don't know what. 20:04.642 --> 20:07.446 [SPEAKER_03]: And certainly there is an influence from 20:08.087 --> 20:17.630 [SPEAKER_03]: from pornography and in many cases, those women are being filmed by their partners and then that content is being uploaded to sites. 20:17.690 --> 20:30.494 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we've seen a lot of media attentioner in that recently following that piece where, you know, there was for a week or two, there was upper or online from people who were learning about this for the first time and learning about 20:34.195 --> 20:46.401 [SPEAKER_03]: communities of men were encouraging each other to participate in this behavior and then it kind of dissipates again, you know, people are up in arms about it and then kind of forget and it doesn't it's not going away. 20:46.681 --> 20:49.583 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that we've tackled the issue and it's gone now. 20:49.663 --> 20:56.486 [SPEAKER_03]: So what would what would your advice be for anyone who kind of learns about these things in a shocked and then, you know, 20:59.287 --> 21:11.087 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, at one level, it's understandable that some people do move on because living with an understanding, as you know, from your work, from 21:12.368 --> 21:32.821 [SPEAKER_02]: working every day in the reality of this sort of thing happening is really hard, so at one level I kind of understand why some people do want to move on and and also for many women as well, it's almost a safety mechanism, you know, who of us wants to really think that this is happening on such a mass scale. 21:33.321 --> 21:39.786 [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, that it is, you know, the men around us who could be doing this, 21:40.744 --> 21:46.511 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I guess that's just to see I can understand why people would want to move on. 21:46.751 --> 21:51.016 [SPEAKER_02]: But at a political level, it's unacceptable, isn't it? 21:51.537 --> 21:58.505 [SPEAKER_02]: It's our politicians need to act and our regulators need to act. 21:58.965 --> 22:18.143 [SPEAKER_02]: because this is happening at scale, and it's on them to take action whether that's relating to the sexual assaults, whether it's the websites that are taking and sharing this material, prosecuting men where they can find them, but also then targeting this kind of material being on mainstream porn sites. 22:19.139 --> 22:19.379 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 22:19.720 --> 22:20.680 [SPEAKER_03]: That's very well said. 22:21.321 --> 22:29.108 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask you a little bit about kind of legal processes and responses to these types of events. 22:29.188 --> 22:38.015 [SPEAKER_03]: So you've written about cases where quote unquote rough sex is used as a legal defense and how does the framing of plausible 22:45.278 --> 23:02.670 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we've seen this in many countries, again around the world, a kind of development over the last 20 years when, for example, women of died at the hands of men whose defenses, this was just rough sex gone wrong. 23:02.790 --> 23:05.372 [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, they weren't, therefore, responsible. 23:05.392 --> 23:06.753 [SPEAKER_02]: It was an accident in a sense. 23:07.374 --> 23:11.637 [SPEAKER_02]: And the problem is, as you highlight, is that over recent years, 23:12.437 --> 23:38.951 [SPEAKER_02]: that that defense has become more plausible because people are more used to the that rough sex being normal and so they're more used to the idea that in fact it could it could have been rough sex gone wrong and and of course that might just be the case in in some instances it's possible I'm not saying it's not possible but what we've seen is an alarming rise in the use of that kind of of defense and 23:40.108 --> 23:58.180 [SPEAKER_02]: What you have is the closer the criminal trial just kind of almost mirrors the stories that you've seen in mainstream pornography and so jury sitting there are not thinking oh my god that is extraordinary behavior they're thinking 23:58.800 --> 24:06.809 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're probably not even rationalizing at this way, but it just sounds like, you know, almost every day normal sexual activity. 24:06.909 --> 24:13.336 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's played into those debates in really difficult and harmful ways. 24:13.396 --> 24:16.399 [SPEAKER_02]: And we've had cases in the United Kingdom where 24:17.120 --> 24:37.840 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, some of the acts have been so vicious and extraordinary, but the men have still been let off and we never really know why, because we can't investigate what the jury thinks, but without to doubt, there's a real concern that this normalization of, of rough sex online is part of that issue without a doubt. 24:39.353 --> 24:39.633 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 24:40.233 --> 25:01.898 [SPEAKER_03]: And just the idea too that if, you know, if that can even be used as a legal defense, it takes away the responsibility to get consent, to have those conversations when engaging in any kind of sexual encounter, but especially one that is, you know, maybe more physically violent or more risky. 25:02.658 --> 25:03.979 [SPEAKER_03]: And if it's like, well, 25:05.019 --> 25:23.727 [SPEAKER_03]: I can just say it was an accident or something goes wrong, it removes the responsibility and accountability of having sexual encounters in a safe way and a responsible way, seeking enthusiastic consent, seeking continued conversation about what is. 25:24.447 --> 25:28.990 [SPEAKER_03]: what is happening, and that's really concerning as younger people are having this normalized for them. 25:29.211 --> 25:44.862 [SPEAKER_03]: When you look at figures like Piper Rickell or Lil Taylor or other, quote, barely legal, only fan stars, where there are questions around sexualization or grooming, what stands out to you about how audiences respond or seek out that kind of content. 25:45.810 --> 25:49.011 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a number of, yeah, there's a number of issues. 25:49.131 --> 25:50.731 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're raising there. 25:50.811 --> 25:54.572 [SPEAKER_02]: This kind of barely legal content. 25:54.813 --> 25:56.213 [SPEAKER_02]: I find deeply troubling. 25:56.273 --> 26:04.955 [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the types of pornography that I think is most disturbing and actually kind of most unacceptable in a way. 26:05.435 --> 26:10.077 [SPEAKER_02]: We have been doing a lot of work around that in the UK over the last number of months. 26:11.257 --> 26:20.155 [SPEAKER_02]: And in my book I try and go into quite a bit of detail about this because I just don't think people understand what we're talking about when we are seeing these are 26:20.907 --> 26:27.089 [SPEAKER_02]: They are actors who are 18 or older, but look some of them incredibly young. 26:27.369 --> 26:38.553 [SPEAKER_02]: So on the mainstream sites, I don't know about some of the videos on only fans because I've not been able to access that material. 26:39.073 --> 26:42.675 [SPEAKER_02]: But I can talk about what's on the mainstream pornography sites. 26:42.935 --> 26:43.015 [SPEAKER_02]: And 26:43.695 --> 26:50.237 [SPEAKER_02]: They are images of very young looking girls, 12, you know, they might, the girls might look 12, 13 years old. 26:50.617 --> 26:55.478 [SPEAKER_02]: They're in children's underwear, children's bed clothes, surrounded by children's toys. 26:56.558 --> 27:00.279 [SPEAKER_02]: The language is, you know, you know, childified. 27:00.619 --> 27:09.161 [SPEAKER_02]: And many of these scenarios are, you know, the kind of older men sneaking into, you know, late night into this child's bedroom and, um, and raping them. 27:13.422 --> 27:36.698 [SPEAKER_02]: This is legal and, you know, well, it has been, it's about to stop being legal in the UK and in in many countries and it's just it's mimicking child sexual abuse, I mean that that's what it's doing and it's legitimizing you gaining sexual gratification from sex with a 12 or 13 year old looking girl and what I find staggering is that that is just not. 27:37.618 --> 27:43.004 [SPEAKER_02]: automatically assumes and recognize, and that of course that's problematic, so we shouldn't allow it. 27:43.825 --> 27:53.816 [SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't seem to be the approach, but like I say in the UK we have just the law is just about to change that kind of pornography will no longer be lawful. 27:55.421 --> 28:04.751 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, which is it's really incredible and you know, as you mentioned, so many people just accept this idea that well everyone involved is over the age of 18. 28:04.791 --> 28:12.619 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is totally fine and actually in many cases, there's no way for them to guarantee that the person on the other side of the screen is over the age of 18. 28:14.501 --> 28:23.824 [SPEAKER_03]: even if they see something on a more mainstream stream site where they get to assume and say, well, you know, this has got to be legitimate. 28:23.864 --> 28:41.570 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no way for them to guarantee the age of the person on the other side of the screen, especially when they're looking younger and younger, especially when we know that that pornographic content exists of individuals who were trafficked into the set of circumstances or, you know, it was someone who was under the age of 18 28:43.262 --> 28:46.883 [SPEAKER_03]: forced into a scenario where this is what was filmed with them. 28:46.943 --> 28:49.344 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's one piece of this. 28:49.424 --> 29:02.808 [SPEAKER_03]: And the other is it's alarming that even if someone can say, well, they're over the age of 18, but they look 12 and they're meant to be infantilized, they're meant to be encouraging this type of behavior 29:04.783 --> 29:09.764 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, when people are existing in the real world, not everyone over the age of 18 looks 12. 29:09.844 --> 29:15.385 [SPEAKER_03]: And so if that's what they're looking for, they're going to find that in a 12-year-old, right? 29:15.465 --> 29:28.348 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I guess I want to ask you what impact does having this type of content, or pushing this type of content have on people, how people interpret youth and attraction and boundaries? 29:29.108 --> 29:35.332 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think this content, yeah, well, normalizes and legitimizes child sexual abuse. 29:35.392 --> 29:40.234 [SPEAKER_02]: So it, in terms of boundaries, it removes those boundaries. 29:40.554 --> 29:46.838 [SPEAKER_02]: I think frankly, it doesn't it because it, it sends a message that it's, it's, um, 29:47.418 --> 30:02.721 [SPEAKER_02]: Not as harmful because many of these videos are about, you know, so I've talked about the ones, you know, waking up a sleeping girl, but some of the other videos like that are where the, you know, these very young looking girls are very enthusiastic about having sex with with much older men. 30:13.063 --> 30:15.205 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it reduces those boundaries. 30:15.465 --> 30:18.887 [SPEAKER_02]: And it blurs any of those lines of consent. 30:19.648 --> 30:37.381 [SPEAKER_02]: But what I think it also does is that what we've seen from work with those who work with child sex offenders and who work in the air of child sexual abuse, what these and sexual abuse images, what they see when I've been speaking to them is that 30:38.402 --> 30:47.826 [SPEAKER_02]: It used to be the case that you would have us, well, there is a small group of men who have a very direct sexual interest in children, you know, what you might call pedophiles. 30:48.506 --> 30:57.410 [SPEAKER_02]: But with the growth of the internet and this type of pornography, you've got a whole nother group of men as well who didn't necessarily even set out. 30:58.190 --> 31:03.753 [SPEAKER_02]: to look for child sexual abuse material or these very young looking girl images. 31:03.994 --> 31:10.598 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what they end up at because they're pushed that content or it becomes more extreme or they get more desensitized. 31:11.258 --> 31:22.125 [SPEAKER_02]: And then what we have is there's some research that suggests, you know, about 40% of men who watched some of this type of material, then go on to try and make contact with children. 31:22.485 --> 31:25.227 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't say that they're then assaulting them, but they're trying to 31:27.428 --> 31:28.969 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a real risk. 31:29.189 --> 31:45.541 [SPEAKER_02]: So this type of content, I think, really raises the risk of child sexual abuse and child sexual abuse material, but it also for everyone else, it legitimizes it and normalizes it so that we just don't take it seriously. 31:45.621 --> 31:47.102 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not as bothered when 31:47.602 --> 31:48.744 [SPEAKER_02]: There's high rates of it. 31:48.784 --> 31:51.328 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not as bothered when the police don't investigate it. 31:51.569 --> 31:55.094 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not as bothered when the government doesn't put any money into children's charities. 31:55.355 --> 31:56.036 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, etc. 31:56.056 --> 32:01.605 [SPEAKER_02]: It then filters into all sorts of aspects of our culture and our life. 32:03.253 --> 32:03.533 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 32:03.954 --> 32:05.695 [SPEAKER_03]: And we know that for young people as well. 32:05.755 --> 32:07.616 [SPEAKER_03]: We know young people are seeing pornography. 32:07.676 --> 32:10.899 [SPEAKER_03]: We know there's, you know, this content is easily accessible. 32:11.479 --> 32:17.564 [SPEAKER_03]: And in some cases is used deliberately to groom young people to say, see, this is totally normal. 32:17.644 --> 32:21.026 [SPEAKER_03]: So not only is it normalizing that 32:22.027 --> 32:34.957 [SPEAKER_03]: behavior, instigation from a perpetrator and adults, but it's normalizing the behavior to children who don't know any different liat and they're being groomed to accept this child sexual abuse as well. 32:35.277 --> 32:38.660 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's causing a lot of harm in ways that I think 32:39.828 --> 32:44.550 [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes adults will watch pornography and say, well, you know, I'm an adult. 32:44.650 --> 32:48.032 [SPEAKER_03]: I can tell that this person's over 18, even though they're looking younger. 32:48.112 --> 32:50.333 [SPEAKER_03]: So I can make this educated decision. 32:50.393 --> 32:52.874 [SPEAKER_03]: But young people can't always decipher that. 32:52.954 --> 32:54.835 [SPEAKER_03]: And nor can adults quite frankly. 32:54.975 --> 32:58.857 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it is really, really important to sound the alarm on this. 32:58.917 --> 33:07.881 [SPEAKER_03]: And I am so glad to hear that, you know, actions had been taken where you're at to make this type of content illegal moving forward. 33:08.061 --> 33:09.002 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. 33:09.022 --> 33:11.664 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're absolutely right about young people as well. 33:11.724 --> 33:17.468 [SPEAKER_02]: They won't necessarily be able to tell to tell the difference as well as adults. 33:17.548 --> 33:19.610 [SPEAKER_02]: You're right, not necessarily being able to tell the difference. 33:19.630 --> 33:23.713 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, some of these actors are well known porn actors. 33:23.753 --> 33:27.876 [SPEAKER_02]: So some people watching them do know that this person is over 18. 33:28.216 --> 33:28.377 [SPEAKER_02]: But 33:29.237 --> 33:40.766 [SPEAKER_02]: even if you know that they're over 18, it's still a message that it's legitimate and okay to gain sexual arousal from watching sex with someone pretending to be 12 or 13 years old. 33:44.433 --> 33:57.678 [SPEAKER_03]: Looking a little bit at where technology's gone with tools like X's, Grown, or other AI chat bots, we've already seen harmful, non-consensual contents circulate before guardrails were in place. 33:58.218 --> 34:05.021 [SPEAKER_03]: What does that reveal about how reactive versus preventative these systems are? 34:06.330 --> 34:24.068 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we knew across the board, whether we're talking about social media, porn platforms and with AI, that they're only ever reactive to public outcry and legal cases, they do not take action. 34:24.348 --> 34:27.190 [SPEAKER_02]: to prevent and reduce harms. 34:27.871 --> 34:42.042 [SPEAKER_02]: And the grok case is just one of the the the worse in that sense, because it was so obvious that if you introduced the image capability into grok, it was going to be used in that way. 34:42.423 --> 34:46.926 [SPEAKER_02]: And they just simply did not put in place any guard, well sufficient guard 34:49.608 --> 34:53.089 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, well, it really is really concerning. 34:53.669 --> 34:58.890 [SPEAKER_02]: And what's interesting as well about that case, because obviously, Grop was a, is an EI chatbot. 34:59.390 --> 35:05.152 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're seeing the development from deepfakes and then into EI. 35:05.432 --> 35:17.455 [SPEAKER_02]: Because what also happened in lots of the Grop cases is, although in many of them, you do have an individual at the one end who says to Grop, you know, like, please, on dress her, if you like, and it'll, it'll then 35:19.575 --> 35:26.964 [SPEAKER_02]: But what grock was also doing was sometimes adding to that image in other kind of sexual ways. 35:27.004 --> 35:30.469 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was doing it itself almost, this was the chatbot. 35:30.929 --> 35:33.572 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have those cases in which. 35:34.579 --> 35:42.481 [SPEAKER_02]: a prompt was surround this woman by a group of men and it did surround her with a group of men but also made her nude. 35:43.221 --> 35:56.865 [SPEAKER_02]: So you've got the chat box and I've done some research just recently talking about how this is like chatbot driven violence against women and girls because it's the chatbot that is because of how it's been programmed is driving this type of abuse. 35:57.885 --> 36:01.847 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is a very concerning development. 36:02.187 --> 36:07.108 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to see with AI becoming so common and so dominant. 36:07.168 --> 36:11.050 [SPEAKER_02]: But this is what we've seen in other areas of social media as well. 36:11.090 --> 36:12.030 [SPEAKER_02]: Isn't it great? 36:12.430 --> 36:19.512 [SPEAKER_02]: They only, many of these large platforms, they only ever act and change the rules once the alarm bells have been sounded. 36:20.053 --> 36:23.994 [SPEAKER_02]: And the people who most suffer from that tend to be women and girls and other, 36:28.667 --> 36:28.947 [SPEAKER_03]: right. 36:29.448 --> 36:35.536 [SPEAKER_03]: And you've looked at, as you mentioned, how these chat bots are essentially reshaping violence against women and girls. 36:36.277 --> 36:43.647 [SPEAKER_03]: Where do you see how these systems are introducing entirely new dynamics versus intensifying ones that were already there? 36:44.147 --> 36:53.952 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so one of the particular areas and it connects to our discussions around pornography is what my colleagues and I have been talking about, 37:00.935 --> 37:06.838 [SPEAKER_02]: Many of you may know that you can now create characters on some of these chat box. 37:06.878 --> 37:10.539 [SPEAKER_02]: For example, there's platforms like Character AI or Chob AI. 37:11.099 --> 37:14.461 [SPEAKER_02]: And you get a choice of how you design your character. 37:15.301 --> 37:19.343 [SPEAKER_02]: And in some of these platforms, you have a drop-down menu. 37:19.423 --> 37:28.467 [SPEAKER_02]: For example, and you can choose that your character is going to engage in Insist or sexual violence or child sexual abuse and your character could be a 12-year-old girl. 37:29.147 --> 37:34.975 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the individuals are then engaging sexually with these characters that they've just developed. 37:35.156 --> 37:43.367 [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I'm deeply concerned about this because this is again an area that seems to be going on to the radar. 37:44.108 --> 37:59.018 [SPEAKER_02]: There have been some reports, you know, for example, in, you know, Washington Post New York Times, particularly when meta introduced a chatbot and one of the characters, they allowed and created what's called submissive schoolgirl. 37:59.918 --> 38:02.679 [SPEAKER_02]: And this does cause some, you know, outcry. 38:02.819 --> 38:04.560 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's since been changed. 38:04.640 --> 38:11.623 [SPEAKER_02]: But character AI and job AI, you can still create these deeply troubling characters. 38:11.683 --> 38:15.745 [SPEAKER_02]: And so you're simulating these forms of abuse. 38:15.885 --> 38:19.366 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, much of that is text based at the moment. 38:19.907 --> 38:23.928 [SPEAKER_02]: But I would anticipate very quickly in a few years. 38:23.968 --> 38:25.289 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be talking about 38:26.129 --> 38:31.892 [SPEAKER_02]: creating characters that are probably very life-like, and could actually also resemble real people. 38:32.332 --> 38:34.633 [SPEAKER_02]: But then you're engaging in a sexual chat with them. 38:34.673 --> 38:38.334 [SPEAKER_02]: You might then, I don't know, record a video, it, share it online. 38:38.474 --> 38:40.655 [SPEAKER_02]: It's, yeah, it's deeply disturbing. 38:40.695 --> 38:47.218 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think any of our legislators are yet acting on what's happening here. 38:47.958 --> 38:49.599 [SPEAKER_02]: And we need to have a conversation as well. 38:49.619 --> 38:52.020 [SPEAKER_02]: We need to decide what, what are we going to do about this? 38:52.780 --> 38:54.081 [SPEAKER_02]: Do we think it's acceptable? 38:54.761 --> 39:04.588 [SPEAKER_02]: that you can engage a creator, a chat person, a chat bot that's like a 12-year-old girl and engage with her sexually, it's okay. 39:05.009 --> 39:07.130 [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, it's certainly not. 39:07.330 --> 39:08.851 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's something I want to 39:10.008 --> 39:27.239 [SPEAKER_03]: ask you about because it's something we've heard before is this idea that well if someone who would perpetrate you know sexual violence against a child has another outlet to do that where they're not actually perpetrating against a child then we'll eliminate that problem and what would your response to that being. 39:27.359 --> 39:29.041 [SPEAKER_02]: just don't think that adds up. 39:29.081 --> 39:33.785 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no evidence to prove that that's the case, and I think it's quite the opposite, frankly. 39:33.845 --> 39:44.035 [SPEAKER_02]: And especially when we're talking about chatbots, because what we're already learning about chatbots in a very short space of time is they're so immersive. 39:44.475 --> 40:04.052 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they really, and any of us, probably using even chatGPT, get this, you know, when they, they tell us we've asked them a very good question and, you know, and we get sucked into it and, you know, and we start talking to the chatbot a little bit and so they're very immersive, they're very intense. 40:04.672 --> 40:29.269 [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you're then engaging in any of these discussions and of course we've seen the repercussions sometimes with you know the suicide of young of young people and adults and AI psychosis is very easy to get sucked in and so I think if you're engaging in chat with one of these chat bots that is say sexually violent or is you know reproducing 40:34.312 --> 40:39.658 [SPEAKER_02]: in trust rather than trying to eradicate it. 40:39.678 --> 40:40.859 [SPEAKER_03]: Great. 40:41.120 --> 40:49.189 [SPEAKER_03]: Looking ahead, what concerns you most about more immersive technologies like virtual reality in this space? 40:49.838 --> 41:08.305 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think virtual reality and and the chat box now are obviously beginning going to begin to to merge and virtual reality as well is is one of the fastest growing areas of of pornography and that's because it is also sold on the idea of being more intense. 41:08.825 --> 41:09.907 [SPEAKER_02]: and more immersive. 41:09.967 --> 41:11.929 [SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, almost more real. 41:12.090 --> 41:16.175 [SPEAKER_02]: So it adds that that extra dimension. 41:16.195 --> 41:22.444 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not just watch, so with virtual reality, you're not just watching porn on a screen, but you're kind of in it. 41:22.845 --> 41:23.966 [SPEAKER_02]: You're kind of living it. 41:24.587 --> 41:32.853 [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing to remember about virtual reality, in case people who don't realize, you can get physical sensations from it. 41:32.953 --> 41:39.738 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's this technology, it's called haptic technology, and it can be gloves that can actually be a whole body suit. 41:40.258 --> 41:48.825 [SPEAKER_02]: And when the other person in a virtual reality game, for example, goes to like touch you, you can actually feel it on yourself. 41:49.265 --> 41:51.527 [SPEAKER_02]: It might sound peculiar if you've never used it. 41:51.587 --> 41:51.707 [SPEAKER_02]: But 41:52.267 --> 42:05.687 [SPEAKER_02]: So this physical touch in virtual reality, and so if we're talking about engaging in this very real feeling, immersive intense pornography, you're actually, you're kind of living it more as well in a way. 42:06.227 --> 42:06.628 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, 42:07.529 --> 42:24.609 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, that might be fine for a lot of areas, but again, a my concern is when that is about sexually violent, non-consensual or, you know, incest, child sexual abuse, you know, stories, and then feeling that much more intense and real. 42:24.870 --> 42:27.052 [SPEAKER_02]: I find that deeply, deeply disturbing. 42:28.577 --> 42:47.207 [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely and you know as you mentioned earlier what we do know from research about pornography and you know frequent or compulsive pornography consumption is that individuals because of the algorithms because of the vast array of content available to people over time tend to seek out 42:48.127 --> 43:00.593 [SPEAKER_03]: this content more often and more hardcore versions of this content to kind of get that same release, which is what often leads individuals to transition from something they've consumed in pornography to acting that out in real life. 43:00.653 --> 43:12.038 [SPEAKER_03]: And so if that same research were to apply in this instance, where something has been so visceral and so real for someone, it is certainly concerning to think of what what could come of that. 43:12.298 --> 43:12.559 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 43:12.839 --> 43:13.179 [SPEAKER_03]: Next. 43:13.239 --> 43:13.479 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 43:13.759 --> 43:14.379 [SPEAKER_03]: That's not that. 43:14.659 --> 43:14.740 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, 43:15.900 --> 43:25.757 [SPEAKER_03]: When you zoom out, what feels most misunderstood about how pornography is not just behavior, but how people interpret their own experiences. 43:27.357 --> 43:28.698 [SPEAKER_02]: That's such a good question. 43:29.078 --> 43:36.801 [SPEAKER_02]: I think what's most misunderstood from what I've been looking at and writing about it. 43:36.841 --> 43:40.782 [SPEAKER_02]: So I've been terming what I'm looking at, patriarchal porn. 43:41.682 --> 43:48.225 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the porn on these mainstream sites that's the most popular, the most commonly accessed. 43:48.885 --> 44:02.971 [SPEAKER_02]: And I describe it as patriarchal porn because it does reproduce these ideas of male dominance, men's priorities, men dominating women, women basically accepting and liking almost anything. 44:03.471 --> 44:13.515 [SPEAKER_02]: And my point is that that's not just in porn, but that is what sustaining what I see as a patriarchal world were still living in. 44:14.160 --> 44:18.202 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not that every single man dominates every single woman. 44:18.242 --> 44:25.445 [SPEAKER_02]: It's about a structural level that there is still no equality between women and men. 44:26.045 --> 44:28.326 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what people misunderstand. 44:28.346 --> 44:35.750 [SPEAKER_02]: They think porn is just this world of, you watch a bit of pornography and then you stick back into the real world. 44:36.210 --> 44:37.851 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just don't think it's like that. 44:37.931 --> 44:42.473 [SPEAKER_02]: I think your ideas and your way of thinking about the world, 44:43.093 --> 44:47.016 [SPEAKER_02]: is shaped by pornography that then impacts on your daily life. 44:47.356 --> 44:56.382 [SPEAKER_02]: How do you react to your neighbor, to your boss who might be a woman, to anyone you encounter your family members? 44:56.803 --> 45:02.847 [SPEAKER_02]: It impacts on those behaviors, I think, and I think that's what's not understood enough. 45:04.538 --> 45:04.778 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 45:05.299 --> 45:06.640 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not as separate. 45:06.740 --> 45:11.043 [SPEAKER_03]: This happens over here privately and no one else is affected and then I exist in the world. 45:11.484 --> 45:24.454 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, research has shown us this and I mean we've spoken with our nonprofits, but around for 17 years, we've spoken with tens of thousands of individuals, many of whom have struggled with pornography. 45:25.275 --> 45:45.082 [SPEAKER_03]: compulsive pornography have itself or something that escalated into a fears or acting out in a sexually violent way and the common thread between all of them is how much pornography shaped their view of the world externally, including their view of women and how much they 45:46.743 --> 45:55.845 [SPEAKER_03]: learned to see women as objects rather than people, as objects for their sexual gratification, and that really is what is modeled in mainstream pornography. 45:55.885 --> 46:02.587 [SPEAKER_03]: So when you mention it affects the systems that we live in in this world, it's so true. 46:02.687 --> 46:07.948 [SPEAKER_03]: It affects the way that, you know, women are sexualized in media broadly, and 46:09.720 --> 46:15.145 [SPEAKER_03]: Certainly there are male victims of sexual violence and abuse and men are sexualized in media as well. 46:15.185 --> 46:23.092 [SPEAKER_03]: But when we look at the statistics of sexual violence against women, women are largely victims and men are largely perpetrators. 46:23.152 --> 46:29.197 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it is something that we have to look up stream at this root cause of pornography to truly understand. 46:30.238 --> 46:45.744 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're absolutely right 100% and I think one of the other other things that I think actually, another point that I think isn't understood enough is that even outside some of the really violent content I've been talking about. 46:46.404 --> 46:54.588 [SPEAKER_02]: When I look at some of this and you know doing the research for the book, I think one thing that comes across to me is that although this 46:58.009 --> 47:10.317 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not even that the men look like they're actually aroused because I think there's a sense of loathing from some men of women in many of these videos. 47:10.977 --> 47:21.824 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not an exciting thrill, it's real and used a word visceral loathing of women and that comes across in so many of these kinds of videos. 47:21.944 --> 47:22.044 [SPEAKER_02]: And 47:23.305 --> 47:44.344 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can think of some in particular, but that's, um, so again, that I'm just trying to reinforce that idea that it's not just about it's not just about sexual arousal it isn't it is about, you know, exercising power in rotisizing power exercise by men over women in a lot of these videos. 47:45.955 --> 47:46.175 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 47:46.195 --> 47:47.275 [SPEAKER_03]: That's very well said. 47:48.456 --> 47:56.678 [SPEAKER_03]: If someone listening wants to think more critically about what they're seeing and unlearned some of these patterns, where's a good place to start. 47:57.358 --> 47:59.939 [SPEAKER_03]: My book. 47:59.959 --> 48:00.959 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 48:01.960 --> 48:02.200 [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry. 48:02.220 --> 48:02.600 [SPEAKER_02]: I. I. 48:05.513 --> 48:07.774 [SPEAKER_03]: No, please, please tell us about your book. 48:07.894 --> 48:09.254 [SPEAKER_03]: I would love our listeners to know. 48:09.955 --> 48:11.435 [SPEAKER_03]: I was a perfect answer. 48:14.836 --> 48:18.778 [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many places that people can go to to learn more about this. 48:18.818 --> 48:21.739 [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many organizations like yourself. 48:21.819 --> 48:28.081 [SPEAKER_02]: There's organizations in many countries that are trying to raise awareness about this. 48:28.161 --> 48:29.762 [SPEAKER_02]: And that includes organizations 48:30.202 --> 48:39.267 [SPEAKER_02]: that directly target pornography, but also many women's organizations that I've worked with again over the years, no one understands these links to pornography. 48:39.607 --> 48:44.710 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the book that I've just written that just published called Exposed. 48:45.898 --> 48:53.622 [SPEAKER_02]: tries to set out what's really out there on these platforms and and then what we can do about it. 48:53.742 --> 48:57.824 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's trying to say what is the truly awful stuff that's there. 48:57.984 --> 49:04.488 [SPEAKER_02]: How we got there talking about these big porn platforms and then what we can what we can do about it. 49:05.128 --> 49:12.513 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wrote it because there are many of us having these conversations and, you know, organizations like yourselves doing this work. 49:13.013 --> 49:20.577 [SPEAKER_02]: But no matter it still doesn't feel like it's enough of a national or international conversation or understanding of what's really going on. 49:21.038 --> 49:23.579 [SPEAKER_02]: So I wanted to just play my part in that. 49:23.699 --> 49:32.625 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd hope that any reader of that book would gain a better understanding of what's going on and some ideas and suggestions about how we might 49:33.425 --> 49:35.968 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, take some steps to try and challenge what's happening. 49:37.510 --> 49:39.172 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and I'm so glad you mentioned your book. 49:39.933 --> 49:45.999 [SPEAKER_03]: It really does cover these issues in such a helpful and articulate way. 49:46.100 --> 49:53.748 [SPEAKER_03]: But I want to ask you in doing the research preparing for your book, releasing that, what do you think is kind of the most compelling 49:55.055 --> 50:13.108 [SPEAKER_03]: information for someone who's maybe new entirely new to learning about this topic, or has never seen pornography, something that is connected to violence against women, or who doesn't understand the degree to which violence against women and girls is affecting our societies. 50:13.569 --> 50:20.674 [SPEAKER_03]: What do you, whether it's statistics or stories, what do you really feel is the most compelling thing that came out of that for you? 50:22.463 --> 50:27.905 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, gosh, it's difficult to pin down to be honest, I think, unfortunately. 50:29.545 --> 50:43.790 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the research studies and statistics are important, whether that's about research I did, which should, you know, how common, sexually violent material is on the mainstream 50:52.353 --> 50:57.417 [SPEAKER_02]: amongst of porn, of porn use for those going on to commit sexually violent acts. 50:58.098 --> 51:15.731 [SPEAKER_02]: But the stories are powerful too, you know, it's when young women and I've spoken to a number of young women in my work and they feel the sense of unease or just uncomfortable and things don't feel right, but they think it's only then. 51:16.952 --> 51:19.433 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, without realizing, there's it. 51:19.693 --> 51:20.673 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just them. 51:21.593 --> 51:23.954 [SPEAKER_02]: It's because of these messages that are being fed to them. 51:24.034 --> 51:26.435 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I'm sorry. 51:26.455 --> 51:28.956 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I don't think I've got a straight forward answer. 51:28.976 --> 51:31.496 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, because it's a very complicated topic, isn't it? 51:31.536 --> 51:32.237 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's face it. 51:32.417 --> 51:33.117 [SPEAKER_03]: It is. 51:33.337 --> 51:33.577 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 51:35.053 --> 51:37.616 [SPEAKER_03]: it is and I'm I appreciate that answer. 51:37.696 --> 51:53.774 [SPEAKER_03]: I do think it's you really spoke to all of the facets that we often speak to in the work that we do is, you know, the research is so compelling and there's research about this side of this and about this side of this and then stories about this side of this and this is such a complicated issue that it affects so much. 51:54.515 --> 51:55.535 [SPEAKER_03]: more than people think. 51:55.655 --> 52:12.199 [SPEAKER_03]: So many more areas of our society of the way we view gender, of the way that we coexist, the way we think about sexual violence, the way we think about sexual experiences in general, about healthy sex, about relationships, about, you know, even domestic violence, 52:19.380 --> 52:36.392 [SPEAKER_03]: Even, you know, we've heard from individuals who worked with law enforcement in the United States that were actually related to, you know, pursuing violent gangs or, you know, focusing on drugs and, in almost every instance, 52:37.092 --> 52:41.894 [SPEAKER_03]: they encountered the individuals who were violent pornography was part of the equation for them. 52:42.034 --> 52:47.616 [SPEAKER_03]: And not something I think about so often because I think for many people that would feel really untethered. 52:48.156 --> 52:53.378 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is really something that's just at the root of so many different ways people are affected by this. 52:53.438 --> 53:02.662 [SPEAKER_03]: So it makes sense you couldn't think of an individual instance when you wrote an entire book to really convey the most compelling information. 53:04.122 --> 53:15.060 [SPEAKER_03]: You mentioned earlier that being in the weeds of this all the time is, you know, heavy and can be so difficult and certainly writing a book about this and doing the work that you do. 53:16.320 --> 53:18.801 [SPEAKER_03]: you're in the weeds of that a lot. 53:19.041 --> 53:25.143 [SPEAKER_03]: What gives you hope when you think about the future, what gives you hope that these patterns can shift? 53:25.723 --> 53:39.567 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think the very, the very idea of hope, I think is really important and that's what I hang on to the writer Rebecca Solner talks a lot about how we need hope. 53:40.167 --> 53:42.988 [SPEAKER_02]: and she talks about, well, she doesn't use these phrases. 53:43.008 --> 53:46.928 [SPEAKER_02]: This is my phrasing of it, but hope being like a political act. 53:47.408 --> 54:05.271 [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, we don't give into the despair, because our opponents, whether they're the large porn platforms, the social media giants, they want us to feel hopeless as if there's no point in acting, there's no point in doing anything, because that's great for them. 54:05.451 --> 54:06.532 [SPEAKER_02]: They would win with that. 54:06.632 --> 54:08.072 [SPEAKER_02]: So having hope, 54:08.532 --> 54:33.157 [SPEAKER_02]: that we can make some changes is absolutely critical because it's it's it's a political act that we're going to carry on and we're going to keep making those changes because we can, you know, we can and every it might not be on the scale we want to and I can certainly see that one of the more challenging aspects of writing the book is realizing that over 20, 30 54:39.298 --> 54:47.322 [SPEAKER_02]: You can feel despair without a doubt and looking at some of this porn does make you feel despair. 54:47.862 --> 54:55.045 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do try and balance that with hope because in the work you're doing, you're helping individuals. 54:55.245 --> 54:59.666 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm supporting individuals, each individual makes a difference that we can help. 54:59.947 --> 55:05.789 [SPEAKER_02]: And we are making some strides in some gains and we have to just keep hoping for that. 55:06.989 --> 55:07.249 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 55:07.669 --> 55:15.432 [SPEAKER_03]: And I love just to reinforce that idea, you know, these major mainstream porn giants really. 55:16.052 --> 55:23.874 [SPEAKER_03]: They do benefit by normalizing this to a degree that it's actually your, your not normal if you have a problem with pornography. 55:23.934 --> 55:25.054 [SPEAKER_03]: It's so normalized. 55:25.554 --> 55:32.656 [SPEAKER_03]: And so they do want individuals who are working, you know, to combat these harms to feel alone in this. 55:35.337 --> 55:39.319 [SPEAKER_03]: millions of people over, you know, nearly two decades now. 55:39.439 --> 55:45.302 [SPEAKER_03]: And as you mentioned earlier, there are so many organizations working on so many different facets of these issues. 55:45.342 --> 55:53.987 [SPEAKER_03]: There are so many people doing their part individually having one conversation here that can change, you know, the outcome of something down the road. 55:54.027 --> 55:57.349 [SPEAKER_03]: And the ripple effect of that is really, really significant. 55:57.529 --> 56:00.471 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's so important for all of us, I think to remember, 56:03.472 --> 56:08.094 [SPEAKER_03]: Once that said, when I asked him this question, he said, this is a human problem with a human solution. 56:08.934 --> 56:15.277 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think about it so often because it really is something that we can actually make a difference about. 56:15.577 --> 56:21.579 [SPEAKER_03]: But it does take all of us to kind of stay aware and engage and push for that change that we believe can happen. 56:21.599 --> 56:21.719 [SPEAKER_03]: 100%. 56:21.739 --> 56:21.920 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 56:24.619 --> 56:27.481 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining me today. 56:27.501 --> 56:37.029 [SPEAKER_03]: I, your, your book is so wonderful and I would love to continue this conversation for several hours to utilize your expertise on these topics. 56:37.069 --> 56:41.013 [SPEAKER_03]: I would encourage any of our listeners to look into your resources. 56:41.113 --> 56:44.936 [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anywhere you want to direct our, our listeners today to learn more about your work? 56:45.656 --> 56:53.962 [SPEAKER_02]: So I have a website that is www.claremaglind.com, I'm also on Instagram. 56:55.303 --> 57:00.166 [SPEAKER_02]: I try to use TikTok, I'm not a successful on TikTok, I'd like to see. 57:00.786 --> 57:05.749 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, Instagram or LinkedIn, I'm there and they can follow some of my work and ideas. 57:05.809 --> 57:08.071 [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously the book that's just come out. 57:08.231 --> 57:08.431 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 57:09.988 --> 57:10.429 [SPEAKER_03]: wonderful. 57:10.829 --> 57:12.511 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you so much and for our listeners. 57:12.911 --> 57:19.738 [SPEAKER_03]: We encourage you to continue considering before consuming and for more conversations like this, please like and subscribe. 57:22.180 --> 57:24.862 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 57:25.443 --> 57:28.385 [SPEAKER_01]: Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight The New Drug. 57:28.906 --> 57:45.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. 57:46.400 --> 57:49.163 [SPEAKER_01]: Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. 57:49.783 --> 57:53.309 [SPEAKER_01]: If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. 57:53.770 --> 57:54.872 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening. 57:55.393 --> 58:02.605 [SPEAKER_01]: We invite you to increase yourself awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.