[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Silmarillion Stories, where the lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm John, and this is our podcast for the second part of Turin Turin Bar, the 25th portion of the Silmarillion.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we're going to be discussing the darkest tale of Tolkien's legendarium, and if you want to get in on that Tolkien talk, send an email to L.O.T.
[SPEAKER_00]: ArthurLorhounds.com or head to our discord server, which is linked in the show notes, and you can chat with all of your fellow Tolkien nerds.
[SPEAKER_00]: One more note, if you want to support us directly, we are an independent podcast network.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can click on the link tree, the same link tree in the show notes and follow it to Patreon where you can get ad-free access to your podcasts, plus bonus content like second breakfast and 11's.
[SPEAKER_00]: Today, you'll be pleased to know that our returning guest is Marilyn Arpukila, our favorite Tolkien scholar, Marilyn, welcome back to some early in stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, John.
[SPEAKER_01]: As always, it's just great to be back and thank you for those kind of words.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very happy to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're going to be seeing more of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be doing Projectile Marriott sounds like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to hear you take on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's quite the ride.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm excited to see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have watched the trailer, but I've never read the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's in the site, guys, to know so that I know the basic what happens already.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the how it happens to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not the destination.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're here to talk about tour in Turinbar.
[SPEAKER_00]: We discussed this last month when we did the first part of the chapter, but we wanted to divide it up, because one, I think, the darker parts of it are, the first part's plenty dark, but the darker parts of it are in the second half, and it's just a long story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we didn't want to make it not a bite size chunk, like we tried to do these episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your take on, I mean, it's kind of weird to say what your hot take on this, but what's your your overall feelings on this section of the chapter upon reread?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is probably the most Calamala like if I may invent a turn of the whole story because this is where it comes to its dreadful conclusion and
[SPEAKER_01]: still has some additional points here and there that point back to the original tail that Tolkien first found and fell in love with around the age of 16 and identified with so strong I think it's really important to remember that that the hapless nature of children was something that he really resonated with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Turin is
[SPEAKER_00]: you want to be, you want to shake him and go, Turin, what are you doing for most of this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, he is being dutped by supernatural equals.
[SPEAKER_00]: Indeed, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are you going to do about it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he is, he is the product of his upbringing, he is the product of everything that has happened to him, and you can't blame him for some of his trauma response.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can blame him for a lot of his actions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Choices, you know, they're humans every will, free choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this world as well as in our world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he does make some really lots of choices.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said you want to shake him because according to the gullabella, that's the problem with Gordon level.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was shaken at birth.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was brought to badly in his cradle.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know, you never shake a baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know we know that now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: When you go, you know, I've had two kids as you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the listeners don't know, when you go to have a baby in the hospital, they have you sign a paper saying you watch the video about not shaking your baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good, discretionous.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is, I mean, it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can do so much damage to your baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, and a adult who's going around killing all their friends, sure I'll give you a little shake.
[SPEAKER_00]: and uh... may i say vank goodness torn never started a band because he would nobody would have ever been able to follow their shows because he could keep changing the name we've got and just in this section of the chapter we have agarwan son of umarth which is the bloodstains son of ill fate i don't know the elf man more magil the black sword uh... the wild man of the woods
[SPEAKER_00]: And another one, Torimbar, which, of course, is part of the title, Master of Doom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Five new names in just this section of the chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we had like three to four in last section.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_00]: This guy needs to pick an even stick with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, part of the whole thing with that is she's trying to avoid his fate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is a sort of out-of-istic belief that if you change your name, you can change your fate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, it's not just out-of-istic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's, isn't that in Jewish practice?
[SPEAKER_01]: That when you have very sick people, or children, or whatever, if you change their name, then maybe death will pass them by, because you can change the name.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can trick death.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can trick death.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and Jordan is trying to trick fate in the form of morgoth.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can I can just see the death of Discworld being like a nice try.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, seriously or nice try.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I've been reading some Discworld lately, so it's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's in my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: I read pyramids recently and then I'm currently reading which is a broad which is a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is a broad was the very first one I ever read.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an odd place to start and yet for me it was a perfect place to start because it's all about the power of story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I actually taught it once or twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Already having piled on way too much reading for my students, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, that's trying to talk me into a discord podcast Marilyn because one day you'll succeed I was gonna say I thought we already had that on the back burner somewhere somewhere I'm still getting I have about six things that I want to do a series on I know you do I think the amount of reading you do is is phenomenal in praiseworthy and maybe just put it on I get this for a while so we can do a discord series fair enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so For now, let's talk Tolkien and our many named protagonist
[SPEAKER_00]: Turing goes to Nargathrond, he influences or address the leader of Nargathrond to attack more openly against Margot's forces.
[SPEAKER_00]: They build a bridge to get their arms out better, and of course he draws the attention because he's motor maguilla.
[SPEAKER_00]: and uh... and he's causing a lot of problems in front of the orcs and morgoth that's like and we suddenly send a dragon over there to to deal with him so glauron comes the orcs destroy narketron glauron kills all the orcs because you you know there are no friends among the servants of morgoth and uh... glauron sits upon it just like smouges out upon the misty mountains right
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I'm sorry, the heap is in the, yes, the lonely mountain.
[SPEAKER_00]: The lonely mountain, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, it's not, it's not the pasty mountain.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go over the misty mountains.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, my point is, we have Glarum sitting on a heap in Narga thrond here.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... or a dreading gilder were of course killed in the efforts fined will last was taken prisoner and torn runs off to breathy all finds out fined will last died and becomes torn barred befriending the leader of the breathy all people uh... brindier yes so i have the whole big reveal the quindor does and i don't need to read the whole text but he does say
[SPEAKER_01]: that, because Findoias loves Toren, against her will, because initially she had loved Windor before with no one away to the battles and came back and ruined.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Windor tells her, go where their love leaves you, yet beware, it is not fitting that the elder children of the Luitar should wed with the younger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nor is it wise for they are brief and soon pass, to leave us in Windorhood
[SPEAKER_01]: Neither will fate suffer it unless it be once or twice only for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive, but this man is not barren.
[SPEAKER_01]: A doom indeed lies on him as seeing eyes may well read in him, but a dark doom and turn not into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you will, your love shall be trey you to bitterness and death.
[SPEAKER_01]: For Harken to me, though he'd be indeed out of the way in son of Umarth, his right name is Turin, son of Huren, who've mortgoth holds an ing-ban, and whose kin he has cursed, doubt not the power of mortgoth-bowgbear, is it not written in me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's really interesting to see a different take right where you know, we're all when when when when when we're in Doria and we see thing all giving that bear in a hard time we're like this guy he's got it you know stick up his butt he doesn't he's a racist he doesn't want his daughter being with that kind
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we're listening to Gwendor and I don't know about you, but I'm like, can you house a point?
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Torn is not barren, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He has not exceptionally noble man.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a lot of issues, it's not, you know, if you are going to sacrifice your immortality make sure you do it for someone who is worth it, I think that's what he's trying to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: of barrens can.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not completely out of cabinets that he might in fact be some kind of a hero but the question is what kind and I was recently reminded while reading Dr. Verlin Fleeyer's amazing book, Splintered Light, if you love Tolkien and you have not read this book, Rod and Don't Walk and find a copy and read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a fourth hero that I didn't mention
[SPEAKER_01]: and that hero contributes significantly to children's depiction and a great deal of Tolkien's worldview.
[SPEAKER_01]: This would be Bablef.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're familiar with good heroes who do wonderful things like Baton and succeed beyond our expectation and continue on to more or less happy ends.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for Tolkien, Bablef was the ultimate hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: He defeated the monster, Grendel, by literally pulling out the monster's own arm and beating him with it.
[UNKNOWN]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: When Grendel's mother's, yeah, seriously.
[SPEAKER_01]: When Grendel's mother came for revenge, he chased her back to her underwater grove and killed her with a sword that, conveniently, I'm gonna war the cave.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in his old age, Baya Wolf died, wait for it, in the act of killing a dragon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the scene actually could remind breeders of the death of the Aden King.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gordon managed to survive his attack of the dragon, but his end was also dark, and flea rights.
[SPEAKER_01]: Frodo stands with all those heroes who, with courage as their stay, went forth to that battle, with the offspring of the dark that ends for all, in defeat.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this was Tolkien's own conception of the hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: character behavior, all the rest of it just doesn't really come into it for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's knowing that the outcome is likely to be dire and you do it anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like this conception of the hero and you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: Did, did good come out of touring's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think that's a question I want to ask by the end of the chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, was there a net good from touring's life?
[SPEAKER_01]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will have to take the rest of his recording to think about that question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not sure the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely not sure the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly there were consequences.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if all of them were good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if the good outweighs the bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a tricky judgment to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, measuring up.
[SPEAKER_01]: good outcome versus bad income.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what sort of scale are you going to weigh them on my own?
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, one that works.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you bring up the bridge in Nargathron that they get a warning from Umo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in your notes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you talk about that a little bit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is, you know, direct from the Umo's mouth as it were through to
[SPEAKER_01]: intermediaries, both else, hear the words of the Lord of the Waters, said they to the king, thus he spoke to Kiritan the shipwrecked.
[SPEAKER_01]: The evil of the north has defiled the sprangels of Siviriana, my power withdraws from the fingers of the flowing waters.
[SPEAKER_01]: But a worse thing is yet to come forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Say therefore to the Lord of Nogarthron, to shut the doors of the fortress, and do not go abroad,
[SPEAKER_01]: cast the stones of your pride into the loud river that the creeping evil may not find the gate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ordoth was troubled by the dark words of the messengers, but Turin would by no means harken to these councils, and least of all what he suffered, a great bridge to be cast down.
[SPEAKER_01]: For he was become proud and stern and would order all things as he wished.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's the fatal flaw of the hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: pride, hubris, uh, hold it in self and his wife, more than and his children all suffer from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also, of course, a very, very Greek concept.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had just read.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you were commenting on the book channel on our discord.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had just read Stephen Fry's retelling of the release.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, I mean, compared to Achilles,
[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, very Achilles this character, you know, Achilles, of course, you know, can't, can't serve his king because he's been insulted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And his king, in his hubris, can't just write the wrong that he committed upon Achilles, and therefore start losing the war.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was definitely runs very much through Greek myth and through Tolkien story as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was the crux of the Greek tragedy, the catharsis.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have that term now for all kinds of things, but within this context, it applied specifically to the emotional dissent and return, hopefully, of the audience, from the very beginning, knowing full well that the hero is going to get it in some of the worst ways possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a hero story, and somehow there is some kind of release in hearing, you know, whatever that release might be, hearing about the downfall of the very great, maybe it's a comfort of well, or if a kill is good and manage it, I guess, you know, I'm not so bad after all in my various flaws and feelings in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that does add a level of realism to these fantastical stories, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is these flawed characters who are who are they had mixed results in how they act, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They make their mistakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do good things like touring, made an area, safe enough to travel across.
[SPEAKER_00]: It hadn't been able to travel across for a really long time, which happened in the next section a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, he leads to the fall of Nargathron.
[SPEAKER_00]: And something else I want to bring up is why is touring able to kind of rest control of all these cities from these people, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, or I think it gets the ear of or a breath away from Gwendoor and all the other advisors, and Vendulas, or the Vendulas is kind of, you know, into him anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the next area, Breathill, Brindor basically, Brindir, sorry, basically loses control of his city.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, is this the shininess of the hero?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they say that he's proud and stern and will not work any kind of interference.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So unless you're willing to go head to head with a dude like this and neither order, dress or brindir are portrayed as being
[SPEAKER_01]: And by strong, I don't necessarily mean muscular, but just, you know, this is my decision I'm going to stand by it and willing to argue with somebody else who is very popular and let's face it a very fierce and successful warrior.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really interesting, and I'm glad you brought up the Greeks because I'd never actually consider to kill these being a parallel veteran.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm thinking about it and the fact that, you know, a lesser warrior would have
[SPEAKER_00]: been thrown in prison by his king for acting the way he did.
[SPEAKER_00]: But because Achilles was the key to winning that war and everybody knew it, just like Torrid is the key to defeating the Orcs here, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the only one who can stand against him.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're losing until he goes to battle.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that in both Nargothron and Brothale, he's able to be so competent that they can't turn him away and they have to treat him
[SPEAKER_00]: with special privileges.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe the lesson is, don't treat your heroes with special privileges because it will bite you with a bite.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a wonderful comparison, John.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure I've heard anybody else make it before, but you're absolutely right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's again, more of the hero and the fact that at the end of the day, you know, you've been hanging out in your caves or hanging out in your forest and hoping that no works will come along.
[SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly you have this
[SPEAKER_01]: famous figure, whatever name he's calling himself right now, who, you know, if he really wanted to remain anonymous, should probably find a different sword because having the back swords are out there now, just one I believe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, just the very fact of his intense martial abilities kind of marks him out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shell, we talk about the other members of the Horan family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, indeed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got Morwin and Nianar.
[SPEAKER_00]: They because of the path that was cleared by Torin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, all these consequences of the actions whether intended or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because of the path that's clear now, they get to Doriaf.
[SPEAKER_00]: And after the fall of Nargath around they learned about Turin and they say we got to we got to find our friend or our family member Yep, and they're all busy, you know, they're all attacked by works, of course, and more when goes missing in the struggles Nianor is found by Klaurung and her memory is wiped Yep, she runs away from the elves because she's just so confused kind of a talk
[SPEAKER_00]: Rips all her clothes off and has found, make it by Torin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he names her Ninyel, which was, what was the Tier Maiden?
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't pull it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: That sounds right, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tier Maiden, yep, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to pull a couple things here.
[SPEAKER_00]: They came upon Morwin by the banks of Syrian and Mablong besought her to return to Menagroth, but she was Fay and would not be persuaded.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where have we heard that someone was Fay before?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, now you're testing you, John, that's not fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Faye Norr.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, of course, duh.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have Faye Norr last as one thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for he was Faye consumed by the flame of his own wrath when he was fighting before.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's so interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did a control F in my copy of the song or something on my Kindle.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the only people ever
[SPEAKER_00]: with use that the adjective for is Fainer, Morwin, and later touring in this chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Huh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why did I think that who is the Elvin King who wrote up to more God's Gate in charge of the single combat?
[SPEAKER_00]: Fingolfen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Fingolfen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought he was also referred to his favorite one point, but you know, apparently not in here, not in the
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna trust this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's really interesting that that we have more on being fair here and being this immuable object.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well as I say again, you know, he comes to a tour and comes by and honestly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a fairly trait.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is sufferable.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, to be fair.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the insurability is part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not saying that both of them are not insufferable because of different times in little places they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, but I point that back to hubris to pride rather than being
[SPEAKER_01]: you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, run away both but it's interesting because you know her memory is wiped all even her language is wiped right twice both before and after the memory wipes she runs off from safety to go find her family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure because deep down whatever she's forgotten.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Klauron.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are still these fundamental drives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of them is I know that I have a big brother and I want to find
[SPEAKER_01]: because I can't find my mother.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's really important to remember that lies are the essence of dragon speech and the power of dragon speech.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what causes so many of them to look at the world and themselves with crooked eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Tudon's own shame that Glaudon awakens in him at all the horrible things that he has done, which of course,
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them, yes, some of them know, but when it's the dragon speech, everybody, everything you've ever done is just discounted.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what's interesting is he hurts him here with lies, and later it's the truth he hurts him with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's because of the earlier lies that torn assumes.
[SPEAKER_00]: that this is not the truth, that this is just more lies to hurt.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just so tragic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that one you almost can't blame him for, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tragic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and again, that's part of the tragic heroes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Half.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I find myself wondering,
[SPEAKER_01]: Gwendoa seems to be convinced that the only way that Turin is not doomed is if he varies from Duilas and that this is staving off the doom and I'm wondering if he had married
[SPEAKER_01]: Would that ultimate horror have happened or not?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, this case is, I think the subtext of all this is he wouldn't have very disistered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So was this just a moment of minor prophecy for Gwynor?
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Gwynor said to Torn, let Baring pay for Baring, but Ilfated was mine and Vayne is mine.
[SPEAKER_01]: For my body is Mard Beyond Healing and I must leave Middle Earth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And though I love these uniford and yet I ruin the day that I took thee from the Orcs.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for thy prowess and thy pride still I should have love and life, and to Nugger thrond should yet stand well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now if thou love me leave me haste to Nugger thrond and save and do y'all.
[SPEAKER_01]: This last I say to thee, she alone stands between the end I doom, if thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee.
[SPEAKER_01]: Farewell.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought he might say something that I speak to the with the eyes of death or something because this is, you know, this death speech, if you will and often times people who are profissating dooms on their deathbeds are given this ability to tell truth, but I'm putting that against the power of mortgoth and the fact that Glauhron is still kicking around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a counterfactual sub-tab that's fun to play with those.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, yeah, it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where we're here for, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to fill in some podcasts, then.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, it is because it is Master of Doom, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, it is him trying to flip his feet on a tent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Say, okay, because remember the end of the last episode that we did.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the middle of chapter, he finds out from Gwendoor about the curse that was put on for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's trying to say, okay, there might be this curse, but I'm the Master of that curse.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's trying to out out with the Valor, out with a corrupted Valor.
[SPEAKER_01]: which is the classic Greek hero response.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and again, Tommy, my doom, I'm still gonna do what I'm gonna do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I bring in the prophecies of the Achilles now?
[SPEAKER_00]: About how either he will live a quiet life in a long life or he will be the same as life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is short.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know which one he chose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here too, he tries to have a Achilles try to have both.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here we have somebody trying to, you know, get beyond their feet, get beyond the prophecies of the gods.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could read this as this is the only son of a hero of men who defied the gods himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can be pretty sure that Morduin talked to her son about his father.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, she might not have known the whole defying Morduin got himself piece of it, but we don't really learn about that until we talk to Windows for the first time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he is raised in pride.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is steeped in pride.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he knows that he is the son of a famous father.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to think that's a burden.
[SPEAKER_01]: as well as a responsibility, maybe he can take comfort from it on occasion as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he's fostered by the most powerful Elf on Middle Earth, if you set aside an old order.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you look at just the elves who didn't ever leave Middle-earth, Fingle is the most powerful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ow, and by the way, his foster mother, you know, was a Maya.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, whipple that Fingle did leave Middle-earth for a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he came back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he said no.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just ain't out of returning to, you know, to...
[SPEAKER_01]: He rejected the two trees because he saw their light in the face of Maleon.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: that he feels he has to live up to you somehow.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't envy him.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't either.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's take a quick break.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll come back and we will continue our journey with our new happy couple.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just bringing rice to throw Maryland.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that was a custom at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Besides, given the dirt of food, I doubt that anybody would approve of throwing food away.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's probably right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Turin marries N'Niel and conceives a child with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Glowerung hears rumors of Turin and goes on a rampage to go attack him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Turin goes off in Slee's Glowerung and is knocked out for a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: N'Niel and the rest of the breathy-ill men follow and N'Niel has her memory restored by
[SPEAKER_00]: Sheave there was herself in the river and dies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, it's certainly very ancient Greece, and it also, again, fits right in with the cool level story, which I still think of as the origin of children in many respects.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really interesting because I always hear people say, well, Tolkien is unrealistically optimistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, oh, his world is very dark.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, people who read, and I was like, it's before I really dove into the writings of Tolkien.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was really into Game of Thrones, and that whole world sounds like, you know, I really like Lord of the Rings, but there's something about the grit of a song of ice and fire that I find more realistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I read this song, Merlin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I went, okay, Tolkien Scott game.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, look, is it emphasized in the Lord of the Rings?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, although there's quite a lot of darkness in the Lord of the Rings, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there really is this level, like this is a grim dark story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would call this in the grim dark genre.
[SPEAKER_00]: because it's just suffering after suffering in accidental incest, murder, accidental murder of friends and family and suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a ton of very dark material here in a way that one doesn't expect when they hear the Lord of the Rings.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard to think of even one crum of redeeming
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, with so many others, you can say, well, you know, the downfall of Gondolin brought her and go down to the Melso-Siri and where he met his wife in the summer, you know, all those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's still further destruction, which you'll use slash possibly, we, I don't know yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: will come to in the following chapter when Horton comes along with his final assessment of things and does a few things that brings about through under the final game of the else.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody getting involved with the family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing ever goes right when you get involved with the family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, once Horton makes fun of Avala, which I will always point to as being the initiating moment of all of this really, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, when you mentioned Niniar running wild to the woods and tearing off her clothes, and so forth, that reminded me very much of Sara Ross' original time of Totten.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then told him that it'd revenge what he said was so dear to your women folk run around naked, quote in their hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly what she wins up doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, um, I couldn't help but think of you when I read.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, one because we were going to record this tonight, but I couldn't help but think of you when I read about Nianor and her tears on the wounds of Torin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because of course, Nianor is quite close to Nianna, probably based on that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the root of it is Nianna.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the healing tears, the healing of the grief, I think is very abocative there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And really goes back to the way grief is treated as a healing thing and talking rather than a negative thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that is a common theme of his, and yet you have that your noise and our joy to death.
[SPEAKER_01]: That'll have a number of tears.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what those tears heal.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this whole business beginning to end is just as, as Mandel says, here's a number, shall you shed?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think they're the tears of the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the tears of Nianna do a cameo here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is, there is a level of healing here is here and it's, I think, part of what wakes Torn up in the end and it allows him to come back from, this is just a stupor of, of, of, uh, Glaurung.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the only positive of this whole chapter is basically just that, uh, Glaurung is dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He kills, he kills the great dragon, the great
[SPEAKER_01]: by Elher on himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I say to you though, he does it quite easily, like it seems like I feel like a group of elves could have also snuck upon this track and in his sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they'd have the courage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: sure it's just it's just interesting that you know we work up towards this and there's no like maybe I'm I think I've been poisoned by modern fantasy where we have to like go through the whole planning stage and all that and like yeah yeah yeah and but but here it's just like I'm gonna go get them in a sleep and then he just does
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really love how, again, evocative, the scene is where Glaurung is stabbed and he's dying, but he just thrashes and destroys everything around him and roars fire everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very, I mean, you know, people say, you know, talking, talking, we'll describe his trees in detail, and then, you know, he got a yada, other stuff, but man is this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this really like an action scene that really left me with like a while I would love to be an animated version of this tale?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is the ziggord side of Torin, because this is exactly how the Chirpandic
[SPEAKER_01]: after Boffner was dead and his hand was burnt by the dragons blood and so he put his hand into his mouth.
[SPEAKER_01]: But instead of following it to a swoon, Ziggord could understand the conversation of these words.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas, you know, total just in that allows, you know, subsequent things to occur.
[SPEAKER_00]: is knocked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just out of commission for a little bit long enough for Nianna order to come around and here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you want to remember everything?
[SPEAKER_00]: Here you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's everything back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and can I say also, it's really interesting that you know Tornin's responses rage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very very very much in line with patriarchal norms for men and women
[SPEAKER_00]: self-harm, not outward-harm, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She turned inward.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, actually her complete loss of memory of everything did not get removed until Glamouram died.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't that he took it away.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was that he died because he died all of his spells were no longer valid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I thought he basically released her in his dying breath, too, maybe it's just at the same time, so I'm conflating it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Glauhrung died, and the veil of his malice was taken from her, and she remembered all the days of her life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Looking down upon Toren, she cried, farewell, oh, twice blemared, ah Toren Toren Bar Toren
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Brandeer, who had heard all standing stricken upon the edge of Rue and hasten toward her, but she ran from him to stroth with horror and anguish, and coming to the brink of Cabet and Arras, she cast herself over and was lost in the wild water.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, this exactly mimics the death of Kuro level sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the worst of his deeds, thou shalt feel in myself, that's dark, I mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no holds barred here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, one wonders why did Tolkien pick up on such a dark story?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really fascinating, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is obviously like the language and the world-building is still very much in line with the rest of the summer lane, but the story itself feels like an aberration.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was retelling it at the age of 16.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that say anything to you about the kind of grief of trauma that he was dealing with?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're absolutely right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lost his mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was he ten when he lost his mother?
[SPEAKER_01]: He was 12 and lost his mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was three, no four when lost his mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's he did not leave it leading an easy early life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, and maybe it's a question of, you know, if I've had it really horrible, but at least not good level.
[SPEAKER_01]: I sure feel like I'm, I sure feel like I'm, some days more than others, but, you know, there it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got our happy couple back together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really do appreciate to, you know, she recognizes Niana, sorry,
[SPEAKER_00]: she didn't know any better and that they didn't know that they were brother and sister and so she does call him twice beloved right you know as once as brother once as has love and I you know when she she made her choice to to cast herself into the sea and
[SPEAKER_00]: It was quite a darkness in that, but I did appreciate that she acknowledged her true feelings from her two lives, right, you know, that it didn't return of her memory, did not erase her subsequent memories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, and to be able to say that and not reject it out of shame or loathing or whatever you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, Gulavo is trying to entice a woman to have sex with him in a sledge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he more or less forces the third one that he sees.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm glad that we had at least a consensual relationship here.
[SPEAKER_00]: If not an appropriate one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, however.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we could ask questions about how consensual is it if this is a woman who has had to be taught language and that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: All the rest of the power dynamic there in advance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we'll move on from that debate because we can go on for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Tornawakes, and Brenda is like, I have some gossip to tell you, Brenda is, look, he shouldn't have been killed for this, but he is a shit starter, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, can we agree that he is, he is, he is, yeah, this is what I heard, he's a helpful, he's quite a gossip, I will say.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's never been a fan of Torn, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he felt like he took, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And quite frankly, touring again, kind of usurped his role.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like kind of, you know, took his leadership away from him and forced him into a position where he had to abdicate his role.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like our address.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the order of the least didn't have to abdicate.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just said this is my close advisor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not on the way that Sauron kind of destroyed the leadership of Alpharism, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although that was intentional in Torrance was more, you know, in good faith, at least.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, probably, I mean, again, you could argue that if he was not so consumed with pride, he would have been, perhaps, more acknowledging what our death is later.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's always told on his leading the army's out, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Turin, for all his faults, did not seek the destruction of these people's family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sauron did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sauron, you know, spoken Elfaras on's ear, directing to destroy.
[SPEAKER_00]: him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Turin, you know, he, he is not very happy about Brenda, you're telling him what Clarong said.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't believe him because of the lies of Clarong in the past, and he kills Brenda here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Turin meets the elves of Doria Athlete by, uh, GLABLONG, is that what it was?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, is it, Mablon?
[SPEAKER_00]: Mablon, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, there's too many, there's too many names on this, Mablon, not GLABLONG.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mablo.
[SPEAKER_00]: Touring me sales of Doria led by Maglong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he tells him, yeah, you know, Nian or went out with Marlon and she got lost.
[SPEAKER_00]: We never found her again.
[SPEAKER_00]: She went north and he's like, oh shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is that is exactly where I was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Touring knows exactly what Clarong did and he asks the sword, girthang to kill him, which he gladly does.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm thinking what you said before about a brand-new being a gossip and what not, it reminds me of the old Buddhist advice if you have something to say to somebody, always ask the three questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it kind?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it true?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it necessary?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good policy to have, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's a good standard to meet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even true gossip, you don't need to spread that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in this instance, you know, bread you're paid with his life, but it's not as though children just are going to learn the truth sooner or later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, one way or the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was brandy as wanting to be,
[SPEAKER_01]: fresh with the hot goss that got him killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we've got our talking sword ready to kill toward this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This reminds me we're, you know, we're working on our cosmic recovery right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to have you on to talk about talking swords at some point, not not salmon because we're not up to that book yet, but there's a few books where talking swords so is up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that sword's mission is
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it in the eye of the Maholder?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it in the hand that wields the sword?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to read the description of this event first from Jordan's story, and then from God's.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he fled from them like the wind, and they were amazed wondering what madness it's used him.
[SPEAKER_01]: With torn and far outrand them, and he came to cupboard an artist, and heard the roaring of the water, and saw that all the leaves felt sear from the trees as the winter had come.
[SPEAKER_01]: There he drew forth his sword that now alone remained to him of all his possessions, and he said, Hail Gourthang, no Lord or loyalty just down-known, saved the hand that
[SPEAKER_01]: From no blood will that shrink, will thou, therefore, take torrent torrent bar, will thou slay me swiftly?
[SPEAKER_00]: And from the blade rag a cold voice and answer, ye, I will drink thy blood gladly.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so I may forget the blood to pay thee thy master.
[SPEAKER_01]: then Jordan said the hell it's upon the ground and cast himself upon the point of good thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the black blade took just life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the black blade breaks there too, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that is the last thing that ever does.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that's the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they put the shards, they bury him with the shards of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They bury them with the shards.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't include that in my quotes, and I haven't read it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not part of the quote.
[SPEAKER_00]: They say it's a couple minutes later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: A couple pages later, rather.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's the last thing that this sort of does is kind of cleanse its own sins with the blood of the sinner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the blood of the deceived.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I suppose that gets into the whole question of, you know, intention.
[SPEAKER_01]: To what I've never intended to make his sister pregnant.
[SPEAKER_00]: In order to kill Beleg.
[SPEAKER_00]: In order to kill Brendier unjustly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how much of that was the influences sort of?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because remember, Malian always listened to Malian.
[SPEAKER_01]: She tried to tell Beleg, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I really think you should pick a different sword because the malice of its maker is still with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, no, I'm good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like this sword.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, again, we're going to have their media, but we're going to cover in one piece, me and Alicia.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this season, there is a swordsman who picks up a sword and a sword, and the guy says, that sword is cursed.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should not buy that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he goes, let's try my luck against the sword's curse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he throws the sword up in the air and spins it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it hits the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: And instead of him, it goes point to the end in the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is like, was he stupid to do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or was that, you know, he was?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, if he was already talented at swords, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess he was pretty safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's trying his luck against the curse of the sword.
[SPEAKER_01]: or tried his skill.
[SPEAKER_00]: True.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, or testing out the words of this, of this, of this mythy, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, did this mythy make this word cursed?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was, it was, it was so, why did he do that, please?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was confirmed cursed by somebody else there.
[SPEAKER_00]: That, that it was, it was a curse sword.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's it doing in this in the shop where you can hear us can go by their sword?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great question never answered as many things are at one piece.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know, these curse swords there everywhere and I'm we're going to talk about this sword again when we get into it in the Cosmere, I promise you we're working in the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm called.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've already agreed to it for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully we can find a convenient time for all of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's important to remember to know if you don't know anything about the call about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is an oral tradition and you can usually identify oral tradition running pretty quickly because you'll have a line and then another line that basically says the same thing the first line did but in a slightly different way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's because you have two singers going back and forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first speaker will sing or say the first line.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the second one will repeat it back to him in a different form while he and it was almost always he.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, sometimes she has a minute or two to not a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he has a little moment there to say, all right, what's the next line?
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, it's really interesting, it reminds me of the legal, legal doublets, you know, the way that, uh, because, because in early England, French and English were both used, and so you would have a cordon satisfaction, uh, you know, arbitrary and capricious, uh, season-discest, like these are all from roots of English and French together, that way everybody in the court would understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is fascinating John.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I suspect it's something that Tolkien probably knew too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a sort of knowledge that he would love if he didn't know it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's bring him on the pot.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be delightful, but I don't believe in Necromancy, and I am not going to use Crystal Balls or table tapping or anything else.
[SPEAKER_00]: Professor First of All, who is Tom Bambadela and what is he?
[SPEAKER_01]: I already answered that question, and the two my letters and three of my discussions next.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what if I answered it the different way for times?
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, anything else on this chapter you have?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just the reading of the same section here so you can hear the echoes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gurudevog, Galavosung, took his dog with him, trudged off of the road, up into the wilds, and he went a little way, stepped a tiny bit of road, and he came to that island.
[SPEAKER_01]: He happened upon the place where he had ravished the wench, and spoiled her his mother's borne.
[SPEAKER_01]: There the fair turf was weeping, the dearest glee complaining, the young grasses were grieving, the heather flowers crying for that ravishing of the wench, spoiling of the motherborn, and no young grass sprang, no heather flower grew, came up in the spot on that evil place,
[SPEAKER_01]: Gurudevall, Galavavall's son, snatched up the sharp sword, looks at it, turns it over, asks it, questions it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He asked his sword what it liked, did it have a mind to eat guilty flesh, to drink the blood that was to blame.
[SPEAKER_01]: The sword followed the man's drift, it guessed the fellow's chatter, and answered with
[SPEAKER_01]: I should I not eat what I like, not drink eat guilty flesh, nor drink blood that is to blame.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll eat even guiltless flesh, I'll drink even blameless blood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Turn the point towards his breast, rammed himself upon the point, and on it he brought about his doom, met his death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the young man's doom, the cool level fellow's death, the end for the fellow death for the ill-fated.
[SPEAKER_01]: uttered a word and spoke with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do not focus the future, bring up a child crookedly with someone stupid, lulling a stranger sending to sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: A child brought up crookedly, or a son lulled stupidly, won't come to grasp things, have a man's understanding, though he should live to be old, or should grow strong in body.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can definitely see where it's coming from.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a few residences there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tolkien of course was was all over those tales, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see them all over the Silberalian.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was the origin of so many things, not least of which is the character of tools in Taudenbach, but also of the Gunnier language.
[SPEAKER_01]: because the minute he found a 1917 translation, he was off to the library to see if he could find a finished grammar, and starting to get an original, and see if he could translate it from the original, which he was not able to.
[SPEAKER_01]: So nevertheless, he loved the sounds and so forth and thus the elvish language was born.
[SPEAKER_00]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: and the name that they carve on Turin's... gravestone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Turin Torimar dangiel glaurunga is Turin Torimar bane of glaurum.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to the else, Turin was a hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: In all senses of the word.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was courageous, he was fearless and battle, he was skilled and battle, he killed a dragon.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only our more recent contemporary audience that decides to, you know, if he's a hero or she's a hero, they have to act nice too.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is an interesting thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about separating the art from the artist, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm rereading.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I keep bringing up different books and whatnot, but I am also moving now through the foundation books again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on foundation's edge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I look back at his personage, and he, you know, is a flawed human as we all are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we're talking about, there's the Harry Potter show coming out soon, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of... Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of issues with the author over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: No kidding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, do you celebrate the art for its own sake, and do you celebrate the deeds of the hero for its own sake?
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that I'm saying that you're a hero just by making art.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a similar thing of what separating the art from the artists separating the deeds from the hero.
[SPEAKER_00]: This kind of thing, can we celebrate the one thing without celebrating all of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even when you look back on past presidents, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You look at somebody like FDR, who I so admire for saving the country from the Great Depression.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, I detest what he did with the tournament camps and developing nuclear weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: What, how do you, how do you reconcile that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you're looking for a perfect human being, you're going to live a life of frustration.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there are degrees and degrees of perfection.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying there are not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my own favorite example of this, and I know I've said it before, Wagner was an absolute wart of a human being.
[SPEAKER_01]: and his music and his philosophies were taken up by the Nazis with devastating results.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was also the most significant composer of classical music in the 19th century, and utterly changed that form, moving forward, and has written some of the most transcendently beautiful music on earth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, can a dog keep also produce a diamond?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the answer seems to be yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a, you know, I majored in music.
[SPEAKER_00]: My first year I took a more classical curriculum.
[SPEAKER_00]: My second through fourth years in college, I was more into pop music.
[SPEAKER_00]: But my first year was into classical music and my music history professor was Jewish.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we got up to Wagner.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, I'm going to talk to you now
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but he is also one of the most influential composers of all time, and so we have to talk about him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was 18 years old, you know, and it was just really interesting to see that dichotomy and action.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was, but it was, because that's, you know, around the time when people start really thinking seriously about these kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's also something to be said for
[SPEAKER_01]: people who say I will not make any more financial contribution to this author by viewing any more products that's been from their original stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do that while there's still living, how long do they have to be dead before you decide it's okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I too actually have thought recently that's been my policy of like if there is a living artist that is profiting from my purchase of their
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... there are things that i want to know that they're not at least donating to bad causes right i think that's that's part of it is like where is my money going is it going to or hateful things i i don't want that if it is someone who is long dead like i's a gazzamov i am very critical of his life but i know that he's not he's not enjoying the dollars that i spent to buy foundations at i mean sure sure
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, my one published book, self-publish admittedly, but still my one published book is about Harry Potter and the amazing things that JK Rowling did in that series.
[SPEAKER_01]: She also did a bunch of really not great things in that series, even setting aside her personal life and her horrible anti-trans stances, which have harmed many, many people and disrupted lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think everybody really has to meet their own choices in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You decide what they are and are not willing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I will respect those choices.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we're off the rails now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this not the lower house?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's return back to Torin for a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are there any other final thoughts on Torin?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know that we have plenty more to go in the summer early in.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is one of the three great tales.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a really big deal here in the summer early in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a very, overall.
[SPEAKER_01]: the instigator, if you will have told him, of toward him, on Tolkien personally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why did he include this story as a major part of his legend out of him?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good question, especially like you could have made Nargathron fall a million ways and you could have done it in a much smaller chapter, but he really did.
[SPEAKER_00]: focus in on this story in tragedy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and again, I think back to what I view is, first cause.
[SPEAKER_01]: Holden's incredible defiance of what he assumed would be death, holding the passes and allowing Toron onto escape, and you know, I say to the Lord with the
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody loves Aurei and Dullava.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a really important thing to hold onto.
[SPEAKER_01]: Day will come again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet that he turns around and absolutely causes the devil of his own family by being stupid enough to taunt, not just to resist, not just to defy, but to make fun of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mordgoth, who, you know, clearly was not going to stand that lightly, and maybe he thought he was going to be killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just didn't stop to think, you know, what there could be worse things than death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And oh, by the way, I might not be the only one who suffered.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a result of that, every, no, two of the three elish kingdoms were destroyed.
[SPEAKER_01]: or the slash tour and Gondolin, that I think was as much, well, that the two contributing factors there, one is Megland and the other is towards not as refusal to, once again, just like nobody listens to the alien, nobody listens to Olmo, his warnings first in Gondolin.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, love not too much the work of I know in hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's another form of possessiveness, and we all know how talking felt about possessiveness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's not, let's not go hoarding anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Never going to leave it to any good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and if, you know, one of your deities tells you through intermediaries, true, but still gives you the message.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is going to result in the ruin of all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pay attention to that, please.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Oradruth tear down that bridge.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we can leave it at that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can, Adi.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad that you were here with both of these parts of the chapter because it is a deep story.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are such an expert on mythology, especially talking source mythology.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I appreciate you being here and sharing that expertise with everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes it a richer experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, John.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just wonderful to think
[SPEAKER_01]: people want to hear this kind of knowledge and listen to me notering on about these things that are so dear to be in that I've lived with for 60 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, next month, we're going to have another special guest on, I want to confirm with them before I say it now, but I will have a guest on and yeah, we'll see you for more of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: For now, let's just do a quick outro on the rest of the network.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have never run the music doing their weekly coverage of music and psychology, and I think they just did a male bag a couple of weeks ago, and now they're back on their weekly regular
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm prepping an episode for them sometime over the summer we're going to be doing a crossover episode that we lot of fun and we also have properly Howard still going on there newly newly wed yes newly wed season so they're there cover movies you don't even have to watch some movies you can just listen to them kind of make fun of them
[SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, if you want to hear my talking, you can go over two rooms and rituals, go back to season one of rings of power and re-experience it with Marilyn and Dr. Sara Brown, and I think season two is going to happen sometime this year, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Once we, once again announcement for season three of the actual show,
[SPEAKER_01]: it will.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the critical clause there is what's we get the adjustment and they've been kind of cagey and there's all kinds of, oh no it's this, no it's this, so...
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of putting my preparations on pause until I have a definitive date and then we can go schedule backwards from that point and I'll know how much you're how little work I have to create and and how much I'm short of space.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, well looking forward to hearing more from you and Dr. Sarah Brown.
[SPEAKER_00]: For now, quick thank yous.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have our Discord server boosters, Aaron Kay, to live with the Riller.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have 71 Athena A. Lestu, Nancy M. Goast of British and Radioactive Retrochered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Madreon, I think Brian also just boosted it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brian 863.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a bunch of boosts recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to leave him out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man, another boost for Aaron.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, Brian the two.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was Aaron.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I boosted this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had it boosted for a long time, and then I guess I think because I switched back from Android to Apple it like canceled my discord subscription so that I had to redo it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and our lower basters or discords, sorry, our Patreon and supercastle or masters who are top tier supporters.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for supporting us in doing all these fun projects like Tolkien and uh, and having all our guests on like Maryland.
[SPEAKER_00]: Samarjan, Michael G, Michelle E. S.C. Peter O'H, Nancy M. Duf71, Brian Levy 63, Frederick H. Sarah L. Garrett C. Andrew B. Kwong-U, Nathan T. Sub-Zero, Aaron K. Delevy, Mother Ship 61, Naurals.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kathy W. Lestu, Jeffree B. Elisee U, Ben B. Scott F. Stephen N. Julia F. Collias, Ill-Mario, Rocky Zim, Jessica A. Ridzipi, the TCS, Dope, Amini.
[SPEAKER_00]: Catch it, L-N-R, Mrs. Tenant AC Wilson, Eli W. Cassicae, Chambaruni, Katia, Josh Liu, Pingdom PDX, CoriG, Quinch, and Adrienne.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to everybody who supports the program.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll see you all next month.
[SPEAKER_01]: See you next time.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Lorhound's podcast is produced in published by the Lorhounds.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.