WEBVTT 00:08.644 --> 00:15.169 [SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome to Folk Files. 00:15.670 --> 00:25.298 [SPEAKER_00]: A folk music history podcast that takes a combed the snarled and matted history of traditional folk songs from all over the English speaking world and occasionally beyond. 00:26.692 --> 00:30.413 [SPEAKER_00]: A couple months ago, I talked about the ballad the two sisters. 00:31.233 --> 00:39.595 [SPEAKER_00]: It's only appropriate then for cosmic balance that we discuss the two brothers, which is currently playing in the background sung by Lizzie Higgins. 00:40.715 --> 00:49.597 [SPEAKER_00]: The two brothers is also known as twob brothers, two little school boys, the rolling of the stone, two pretty boys, and many other names. 00:50.377 --> 00:52.318 [SPEAKER_00]: or to make it easier to categorize. 00:52.839 --> 00:57.641 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the 49th child ballad and number 38 in the route, folks on index. 00:58.822 --> 01:11.369 [SPEAKER_00]: Unlike the two sisters, which in most versions has a pretty straight forward plot with a motive and a murder, and sometimes even paranormal revenge, the two brothers is frustratingly vague. 01:12.210 --> 01:13.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Who are these brothers? 01:13.991 --> 01:15.492 [SPEAKER_00]: Why did one of them kill the other? 01:16.232 --> 01:16.692 [SPEAKER_00]: Which one 01:18.819 --> 01:28.727 [SPEAKER_00]: Over the course of this episode, we'll explore the murky answers to these questions, discover how the ballad survived for so long, and discuss the many different endings of the song. 01:29.848 --> 01:38.755 [SPEAKER_00]: Along the way, we'll learn about the importance of nomadic groups to the folk process, and discover the surprising ways in which this ballad tugs at one's heartstrings. 01:40.690 --> 01:43.891 [SPEAKER_00]: But here's what's consistent in essentially every version of the song. 01:44.871 --> 01:50.692 [SPEAKER_00]: Two brothers have a discussion, usually about some sort of sporting activity like playing ball or throwing stones. 01:51.573 --> 01:53.613 [SPEAKER_00]: Then one brother kills the other brother. 01:54.753 --> 01:57.214 [SPEAKER_00]: So to begin, who are these brothers? 01:58.234 --> 02:05.596 [SPEAKER_00]: As you might guess from a few of the titles, like two pretty boys and the little school boys, sometimes they're described as young children. 02:06.752 --> 02:15.657 [SPEAKER_00]: Texas Gladon, who has one of the earliest recorded versions of the song, was interviewed about the ballad and talked about how she imagined the main characters as little boys. 02:16.257 --> 02:33.926 [SPEAKER_01]: Say it towards, I could see these little boys, and they're all gathered, and one would ask the other if they could play ball or roll a marble stone, then I could see him when he grows in time and health and has him grows to breathe, I could even see where it carries him and needs at home, and puts him in everything just at the perfect pitch. 02:34.486 --> 02:35.247 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's her singing. 02:37.323 --> 02:44.031 [SPEAKER_12]: No brother, can you play ball, are all a marble stone? 02:44.792 --> 02:52.140 [SPEAKER_12]: No brother, no brother, I can't play ball, nor only marbles. 02:53.772 --> 02:57.934 [SPEAKER_00]: It is especially common in American versions of the song for the boys to be very young. 02:58.715 --> 02:59.996 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not always the case. 03:00.776 --> 03:10.182 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes at least one of the boys is old enough to have a sweetheart, and sometimes one of them is at least old enough to own a sword, who knows which of those milestones comes first. 03:11.222 --> 03:11.823 [SPEAKER_00]: As A.L. 03:11.863 --> 03:23.013 [SPEAKER_00]: Lloyd says about the ballad, tracing its sundry versions, we find that it concerns not merely a violent bit of schoolboy horse play, but a murderous quarrel over a patch of land. 03:23.994 --> 03:26.456 [SPEAKER_00]: There's more to that quote, but I'll get into that later. 03:27.537 --> 03:33.621 [SPEAKER_00]: The two boys have relevantly consistent names, which is surprising given their lack of other clear qualities. 03:34.381 --> 03:36.823 [SPEAKER_00]: They are usually William and John. 03:37.844 --> 03:51.792 [SPEAKER_00]: In the version that Texas Gladden sings, one boy hacks his brother in the chest with a Tomahawk, and then says, now, brother, I reckon you can't play ball nor roll a marble stone, which seems like an odd bit of dark humor from a schoolboy. 03:55.895 --> 03:57.276 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not always the case. 03:58.157 --> 04:02.741 [SPEAKER_00]: There are plenty of versions, especially in Scotland, where the brother's death is an accident. 04:03.742 --> 04:11.569 [SPEAKER_00]: In most of those versions, the boys begin to wrestle, and then a knife slips out of one's pocket delivering a deadly wound to the other. 04:12.310 --> 04:15.553 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's Bell Stewart's version, which features an accidental death. 04:21.923 --> 04:40.426 [SPEAKER_07]: Beneath the spreading moon, the little pen knife slipped out of William's pocket, which give a John his a deadly wound, which give a John his a deadly wound. 04:41.040 --> 04:45.983 [SPEAKER_00]: But in other similar versions, the brother just whips out his pen knife and stabs the other guy. 04:46.743 --> 04:58.451 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is, of course, speculation about whether the accidental deaths are truly accidents, considering the second half of the song, when the dying brother starts coaching the other brother on what he should say to the rest of the family. 04:59.291 --> 05:06.335 [SPEAKER_00]: The very last verse of Bell Stewart's version reads, but what will I tell to your stepmother dear this night when I go home? 05:07.155 --> 05:14.099 [SPEAKER_00]: You can tell her I'm dead and in grave lead, for she prayed I might never come home, for she prayed I might never come home. 05:15.520 --> 05:18.141 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people have found this verse very suspicious. 05:18.930 --> 05:26.059 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this one of those instances where it's an evil stepmother and she's somehow plotted the death of her steps on using her own son as a pawn? 05:26.900 --> 05:29.884 [SPEAKER_00]: Did she plant a knife in her biological son's pocket? 05:30.204 --> 05:32.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Somehow knowing it would fall out and kill his half-brother? 05:33.369 --> 05:33.669 [SPEAKER_11]: Hmm. 05:34.570 --> 05:39.392 [SPEAKER_00]: In versions where one brother deliberately stabs the other, does the step mother put him up to it? 05:40.393 --> 05:53.560 [SPEAKER_00]: Multiple people in the folks' fear have suggested this might be the case, including Jordi McIntyre, who writes, the unusual conclusion of blaming the step mother for the event has strong echoes of the common mother curse motif. 05:54.380 --> 06:05.624 [SPEAKER_00]: Silly wizard in his album notes also suggests it's the obvious conclusion, writing, with his dying breath he curses his stepmother who he realizes is responsible for plotting his death. 06:06.644 --> 06:09.305 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if I'm as certain about that conclusion. 06:10.505 --> 06:14.668 [SPEAKER_00]: But if not to appease his stepmother, why does one brother kill the other? 06:15.428 --> 06:18.850 [SPEAKER_00]: Is he just really angry that the other brother is beating him at wrestling? 06:19.531 --> 06:23.193 [SPEAKER_00]: Or angry that his brother won't throw stones or play marbles with him? 06:24.073 --> 06:27.115 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some versions where an element of jealousy is hinted at. 06:27.816 --> 06:30.738 [SPEAKER_00]: Never really confirmed in any satisfactory way. 06:31.358 --> 06:34.520 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a little bit of rolling of the stone by Oscar Brandt. 06:35.462 --> 06:39.524 [SPEAKER_05]: Or will you go to the rolling of the stones? 06:40.064 --> 06:43.845 [SPEAKER_05]: Passing of the ball? 06:44.206 --> 06:47.087 [SPEAKER_05]: Or will you go and see me? 06:47.107 --> 06:54.590 [SPEAKER_05]: It is cozy and some on them all. 06:55.130 --> 07:02.493 [SPEAKER_05]: I will go to the rolling of the stones, A tossing of the ball. 07:03.499 --> 07:11.504 [SPEAKER_05]: And I will go and see British newsy and some on their own. 07:13.185 --> 07:20.390 [SPEAKER_00]: As an aside, I think it's interesting that there are so many sets of lyrics where Susie is given a name, but neither of the brothers is. 07:21.150 --> 07:27.034 [SPEAKER_00]: This is refreshing, since there are so many folk songs out there where the woman is just the wife or the daughter. 07:28.544 --> 07:34.565 [SPEAKER_00]: in rolling of the stone, one brother kills the other after he confirms that he's going to go see pretty Susie. 07:35.365 --> 07:37.846 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I can imagine this scenario. 07:38.426 --> 07:42.567 [SPEAKER_00]: One brother asks, when I leave, are you going to go hang out with my sweetheart? 07:43.207 --> 07:48.288 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other one says, yep, once you're out of sight, I'm going to go spend some quality time with your sweetheart. 07:49.068 --> 07:53.649 [SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine a fight breaking out over that kind of audacity, leading to a deadly wound. 07:54.209 --> 07:56.050 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not what happens. 07:56.870 --> 08:02.772 [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the lyrics of Rolling of the Stone Carefully, the man who is killed is Susie's sweetheart. 08:03.372 --> 08:11.155 [SPEAKER_00]: So, in theory, the man who answers that yes he will go see Susie is Susie's lover and has every right to spend time with her. 08:12.135 --> 08:20.678 [SPEAKER_00]: There are lots of possible explanations like maybe Susie was dating one brother but actually in love with the other, but it's just very messy and unclear. 08:21.998 --> 08:24.660 [SPEAKER_00]: There's similar messiness in versions without Susie. 08:25.460 --> 08:32.144 [SPEAKER_00]: To return to Bell Stewart's version, the first verse reads, says William to John, can you throw a stone? 08:33.164 --> 08:38.567 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the second verse reads, says William to John, I cannot throw a stone. 08:39.568 --> 08:39.748 [SPEAKER_00]: What? 08:40.568 --> 08:42.750 [SPEAKER_00]: Why is William answering his own question? 08:43.530 --> 08:48.593 [SPEAKER_00]: At first, I thought it was a typo, but Bell Stewart's daughter sings it the same way as you can hear. 08:49.415 --> 08:54.677 [SPEAKER_08]: Sad William T. John, can you throw a stone? 08:55.938 --> 09:00.080 [SPEAKER_08]: Or can you play it a ball? 09:00.100 --> 09:04.662 [SPEAKER_08]: Or can you play it a ball? 09:06.262 --> 09:12.985 [SPEAKER_08]: Sad William T. John, I cannot throw a stone. 09:18.520 --> 09:28.983 [SPEAKER_08]: But if you come down to your merry green woods, I'll try your wrestling full. 09:29.823 --> 09:33.684 [SPEAKER_08]: I'll try your wrestling full. 09:34.524 --> 09:37.865 [SPEAKER_00]: I love Oscar Brand's quote describing the confusion of the plot. 09:38.485 --> 09:45.387 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, although many verses of the Rolling of the Stones are missing, somebody killed somebody, and it's a very lovely song. 09:46.690 --> 09:50.177 [SPEAKER_00]: But could there be a reason for the song's moments of incoherence? 09:51.299 --> 09:55.788 [SPEAKER_00]: As you'll see, my research eventually led me to a pretty sinister hypothesis. 09:56.980 --> 10:00.041 [SPEAKER_00]: It could be that the songs confusing because it's supposed to be metaphorical. 10:01.081 --> 10:13.605 [SPEAKER_00]: In where is St. George, pagan imagery and English folk song, Bob Stewart writes, A clear link connects this ballot with the early ritual practice of the sacred king and his tenest brother and successor. 10:14.686 --> 10:21.888 [SPEAKER_00]: Although actual practices in specific times and places are known to have varied enormously, the general pattern was this. 10:22.908 --> 10:28.953 [SPEAKER_00]: At a certain time of the year, one chosen man superseded the present king, usually by killing him. 10:30.054 --> 10:42.583 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how much I buy into Bob Stewart's theory, because there aren't specific features about the song that are shared by enough versions that would indicate that this was about the death of the sacred king and time passing and the seasons. 10:43.564 --> 10:45.545 [SPEAKER_00]: You could just as easily say that this song is 10:49.288 --> 10:50.790 [SPEAKER_00]: and some folklorists have. 10:51.551 --> 10:59.298 [SPEAKER_00]: Peleus and Telemon both killed their half-brother, possibly during a hunting trip or a game, and then tried to claim it was an accident. 11:00.159 --> 11:02.882 [SPEAKER_00]: Their father discovered the truth and banished the two brothers. 11:03.802 --> 11:09.528 [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting that, like in the song, the death happens during some sort of playful sporting activity. 11:10.269 --> 11:12.991 [SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, there aren't many similarities. 11:13.912 --> 11:18.237 [SPEAKER_00]: After all, there are three brothers in the myth, and in the song, no one is banished. 11:19.218 --> 11:22.642 [SPEAKER_00]: Parallels have been drawn between the ballad and the story of Cain and Abel. 11:23.663 --> 11:31.933 [SPEAKER_00]: In the Bible, God accepts Abel's sacrifice, but not Cain's, and so Cain becomes jealous, lures Abel out into the field, and then kills him. 11:32.813 --> 11:39.377 [SPEAKER_00]: But there doesn't seem to be much Christian imagery in the two brothers' song, and importantly, Kane lies to God. 11:40.158 --> 11:45.641 [SPEAKER_00]: When God asks him where Abel is, he responds, I do not know, am I my brother's keeper? 11:46.801 --> 11:52.005 [SPEAKER_00]: In most versions of two brothers, the murdering brother tells the truth to at least one person. 11:53.065 --> 12:02.391 [SPEAKER_00]: There are a few exceptions where the murderer tries to lie, but a lot of folklorists think that those versions have borrowed parts from a different ballot called Edward. 12:03.592 --> 12:09.636 [SPEAKER_00]: In Edward, the murderer at first tries to lie, claiming the blood on his person is from a hawk or a hound. 12:10.517 --> 12:12.378 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a little bit of Edward by Jean Richie. 12:22.574 --> 12:30.798 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it is the blood of the old grey mare that plowed the fields for me, me, me. 12:31.678 --> 12:35.180 [SPEAKER_02]: That plowed the fields for me. 12:36.661 --> 12:44.925 [SPEAKER_02]: It does look to pale for the old grey mare that plowed the fields for the thee thee. 12:45.785 --> 12:48.046 [SPEAKER_02]: That plowed the fields for me. 12:49.175 --> 13:01.201 [SPEAKER_00]: In some versions of Edward, also known as my son David or Henry, the man has killed his brother, sometimes for reasons as similarly bizarre as those in two brothers, like that his brother didn't want to go riding with him. 13:02.322 --> 13:04.523 [SPEAKER_00]: But there are other more sinister versions. 13:05.568 --> 13:14.010 [SPEAKER_00]: You might remember that I've talked about Edward in another episode of Folk Files, the women without choices episode, where I discuss in-sessed ballots. 13:15.070 --> 13:17.691 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where the other half of that A.L. 13:17.731 --> 13:19.031 [SPEAKER_00]: Lloyd quote comes into play. 13:20.032 --> 13:30.834 [SPEAKER_00]: After mentioning versions of two brothers where the quarrel is over a piece of land, he says, in the oldest versions of all, we find that the root of the dispute is in incestuous jealousy, 13:34.768 --> 13:43.571 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, to be clear, I could not find those oldest versions that A.A. Lloyd was talking about, even among all the texts that Francis Child collected. 13:44.231 --> 13:50.413 [SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like he may have been jumping the gun or simply confusing two brothers with Edward, a common mistake. 13:51.654 --> 14:09.705 [SPEAKER_00]: The main argument for the incest motive seems to come from the folk music scholar Philips Barry, whose entire argument relies on his assertion that, twobb-rothers, Edward, and Lizzy Wan, a valid that is obviously about incest, all descended from the same ancestor valid. 14:10.740 --> 14:13.841 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not certain, so it seems very tentative. 14:14.701 --> 14:21.724 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a specific line that Philips Barry points to when discussing the incest theory, but it's not an obvious admission of incest. 14:22.704 --> 14:27.846 [SPEAKER_00]: The line in question is, breaking of a little bush that might have been a tree. 14:28.907 --> 14:33.248 [SPEAKER_00]: When Cecil Sharp collected Edward, a singer told him that that line was a canning, 14:37.930 --> 14:42.911 [SPEAKER_00]: While that makes sense metaphorically, it seems like that's basically all we have to go on. 14:43.752 --> 14:47.893 [SPEAKER_00]: And that line suggests that the brother is a pedophile, not that he committed incessed. 14:48.713 --> 14:55.335 [SPEAKER_00]: And keep in mind, the line only occurs in versions of two brothers that seem to have merged into the Edward Ballad. 14:56.315 --> 15:05.438 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some versions of the Edward Ballad that make it clear that incest occurred, but they seem to be all modern rewrites, like in the case of Fay Hield's version 15:08.128 --> 15:37.212 [SPEAKER_03]: One, two, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four, three, four 15:39.505 --> 15:43.887 [SPEAKER_00]: Here, the brother finally admits that he's killed his sister because she was going to have his baby. 15:45.248 --> 15:55.093 [SPEAKER_00]: The most compelling argument that I found for the Incessed motif, which still isn't that convincing, comes from Tristrum P. Coffin's article, The Murder Motiv in Edward. 15:56.033 --> 16:07.159 [SPEAKER_00]: Coffin explains, Incessed is a motif that has consistently tended to drop out of valid plots to be modified and rationalized into something less sorted, less specific. 16:08.239 --> 16:17.449 [SPEAKER_00]: Coffin says that there are multiple ballads that child collected with incestuous themes that have lost those themes in the less than 200 years since child wrote them down. 16:18.370 --> 16:30.602 [SPEAKER_00]: So the argument is that when a ballad is very vague and seems to be missing something like two brothers, the answer might be that there used to be a taboo subject that was erased for the sake of propriety. 16:31.623 --> 16:39.889 [SPEAKER_00]: So, in the original two brothers, whatever that might have been, did one brother kill the other because he was having impure thoughts about their sister? 16:40.670 --> 16:43.091 [SPEAKER_00]: Frustratingly, there was really no way to know. 16:43.972 --> 16:52.118 [SPEAKER_00]: We just have the versions that exist now, and there isn't insist in any of those, except for a couple that have been fused with an Edward Ballet. 16:53.573 --> 16:56.256 [SPEAKER_00]: Now let's turn to the matter of those versions that exist today. 16:56.897 --> 16:59.159 [SPEAKER_00]: Where did they come from, and how did they survive? 17:00.300 --> 17:05.065 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems that most of the earliest versions, like with Twa sisters, come from Scotland. 17:05.946 --> 17:15.976 [SPEAKER_00]: There have been some arguments that the song is based on an incident from 1589 in Drum's Scotland when William Somerville accidentally shot his brother John while cleaning his pistol. 17:16.937 --> 17:27.921 [SPEAKER_00]: But aside from the names, William and John, two extremely common names, and the fact that one brother killed another, there is no connection between the unfortunate tale and the ballad. 17:29.122 --> 17:36.064 [SPEAKER_00]: So the ballad originally existed in Scotland, and then it obviously was brought to the United States since there are so many American versions. 17:36.825 --> 17:39.946 [SPEAKER_00]: But many people thought that the song died out in Scotland. 17:40.926 --> 17:51.155 [SPEAKER_00]: In the late 1800s, Francis Child wrote, all the Scottish versions were obtained within the first third of this century, and since then, no others have been heard of. 17:52.396 --> 17:54.878 [SPEAKER_00]: Folk collectors couldn't find the ballot. 17:55.759 --> 18:02.564 [SPEAKER_00]: Even thorough Scottish collectors, like Gavin Greeg and Reverend Duncan of Lintirk, were unsuccessful in trying to find it. 18:03.165 --> 18:06.127 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's because they weren't looking in the right place. 18:06.928 --> 18:13.194 [SPEAKER_00]: They were completely ignoring an incredibly rich source of folk music, nomadic communities. 18:14.595 --> 18:24.564 [SPEAKER_00]: As folk music expert Hamish Henderson, who did manage to collect the song rights, few could have expected us to land as many versions as we did in the mid-50s. 18:25.405 --> 18:27.587 [SPEAKER_00]: The reason appears to be a social one. 18:28.307 --> 18:33.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Practically all Greeks' informants came from the farmer or farm servant section of the community. 18:34.077 --> 18:43.224 [SPEAKER_00]: Practically none came from among the traveling folk, the tinkers or tinkler gypsies, who have proved such an invaluable folklore source in the last 20 years or so. 18:44.204 --> 18:50.529 [SPEAKER_00]: Many of the singers that I've played so far, Lizzie Higgins, Bell Stewart, Sheila McGregor, are Scottish travelers. 18:51.489 --> 18:56.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's another version from a traveler, Jeannie Robertson, who happens to be Lizzie Higgins' mother. 19:02.705 --> 19:29.183 [SPEAKER_10]: of glory in heaven, in heaven, in the eyes of the Lord, in heaven, in heaven, in the eyes of the Lord, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, in heaven, 19:37.076 --> 19:40.577 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a moment to talk about nomadic communities in the British Isles. 19:41.597 --> 19:52.220 [SPEAKER_00]: There is an umbrella term in the UK, GRT, which stands for Gypsy, Roma, and Traveller, and encompasses many of the ethnic groups associated with itinerant lifestyles. 19:53.060 --> 19:58.402 [SPEAKER_00]: It is important to note that Gypsy is a complex term that in many circumstances is now a slur. 19:59.362 --> 20:05.486 [SPEAKER_00]: In 1971, the World Romani Congress voted not to recognize the word gypsy as a description of their culture. 20:06.126 --> 20:12.910 [SPEAKER_00]: However, there are nomadic groups that do use the word as an identifier, and so some institutions still use the term. 20:13.771 --> 20:24.257 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, the English folk dance and song society has an archive of gypsy and traveler voices, a term that they have adopted after careful discussion with the appropriate communities, 20:29.260 --> 20:30.480 [SPEAKER_00]: who helped create the collection. 20:31.401 --> 20:38.483 [SPEAKER_00]: But unless you've carefully researched the term or belong to a community that claims it, it's probably wise not to use the word gypsy. 20:39.743 --> 20:45.865 [SPEAKER_00]: Scottish Travelers, Capital T, are a non-Romani ethnic group traditionally associated with traveling. 20:46.782 --> 20:59.588 [SPEAKER_00]: While many formerly nomadic people now reside in permanent homes, at the time when Greek was failing to find versions of two brothers, the travelers were probably moving around Scotland, learning songs, and bringing them from place to place. 21:00.688 --> 21:03.830 [SPEAKER_00]: Travelers are essentially a catalyst for the folk process. 21:04.670 --> 21:08.392 [SPEAKER_00]: As Peter Hall explains, none are better placed than the members of the 21:12.247 --> 21:20.874 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that now, and since the folk music revival of the 1950s and 60s, many scholars now know to seek out GRT people when collecting songs. 21:21.734 --> 21:26.618 [SPEAKER_00]: But in the early 20th century, no one thought to contact them, so some songs like 21:42.415 --> 22:10.652 [SPEAKER_09]: said the big ears boy to the little and boy oh can you throw a stone oh can you throw a stone that was a version from Lucy Stewart also a traveler but not related to Belle Stewart who we heard earlier the final thing I'd like to talk about to return to the plot of the ballad is the two major 22:12.750 --> 22:21.838 [SPEAKER_00]: One could argue that there are three if we include the Edward variations where the brother lies about the blood on his shirt, but I'll skip over those since we already chatted about Edward. 22:23.079 --> 22:31.087 [SPEAKER_00]: In most standard versions, the second half of the ballot is concerned with what the remaining brother will tell his family after burying the dying brother. 22:32.292 --> 22:37.854 [SPEAKER_00]: I find that there's something very human and almost sweetly sentimental about this discussion between the two brothers. 22:38.914 --> 22:45.957 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though one of them is actively bleeding out, they're running through a list of their loved ones and deciding what is best for each of them to hear. 22:46.977 --> 22:50.138 [SPEAKER_00]: You can hear a little of their conversation in Alice to Robert's version. 23:01.535 --> 23:24.851 [SPEAKER_06]: This night to when I go You come tell him I'm away To all of them to go I'm the good scar you'll come 23:27.112 --> 23:34.276 [SPEAKER_06]: Come home, I'm the good scholar, I'll come home. 23:36.597 --> 23:41.860 [SPEAKER_00]: In this version, the little brother will be told that his brother has gone off to school to become a scholar. 23:42.700 --> 23:46.282 [SPEAKER_00]: The little sister will be told that he's running in the fields with his schoolbooks. 23:47.438 --> 23:51.160 [SPEAKER_00]: Often the father is told the truth, perhaps he can handle it. 23:51.861 --> 23:55.503 [SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully, the sweetheart Susie is usually also told the truth. 23:56.043 --> 23:56.764 [SPEAKER_00]: She deserves it. 23:57.724 --> 24:04.729 [SPEAKER_00]: There's just something so heart-wrenching about a man or boy's final thoughts being about how to break the news of his death to his family. 24:05.649 --> 24:11.673 [SPEAKER_00]: In my opinion, this is where the true value of the song can be found, and it might be why the song has survived so long. 24:13.329 --> 24:14.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Back to Susie. 24:14.750 --> 24:17.331 [SPEAKER_00]: The other common ending for the song is Witchcraft. 24:18.232 --> 24:28.878 [SPEAKER_00]: In some versions, especially those called the Rolling of the Stone or the Rolling of the Stones, Susie reacts to her sweetheart's death by going to his grave side, working her magic, and bringing him back to life. 24:29.898 --> 24:31.859 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's my band, Music the Gathering's version. 24:32.580 --> 24:36.602 [SPEAKER_00]: By the way, a tablet is a wooden grave marker, not an iPad. 24:38.280 --> 24:51.741 [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty Susie, she came wondering by With a tablet under her arm Until she came to a true love's grave But she can hurt her child 24:58.290 --> 25:11.521 [SPEAKER_04]: She charm the fish from out to sea The birds from out there nest She charm the true love, how does great Where he was intended to rest 25:13.059 --> 25:17.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Any of you who are very familiar with the child ballots, however, might recognize this ending. 25:18.627 --> 25:21.630 [SPEAKER_00]: The corpse speaks, asking what Susie wants from him. 25:22.432 --> 25:25.976 [SPEAKER_00]: She answers that she just wants a kiss from his cold clay lips. 25:27.058 --> 25:30.342 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the same as the song known as the Unquiet Grave. 25:31.223 --> 25:35.969 [SPEAKER_00]: So like with Edward, it seems like some singers decided to fuse two ballads together. 25:36.950 --> 25:43.477 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some scholars who claim that the rolling of the stone should not be considered a version of two brothers because of these differences. 25:44.545 --> 25:46.466 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure where I personally stand on this. 25:47.206 --> 25:56.871 [SPEAKER_00]: I can see why they are categorized under the same number, since both songs have a discussion about recreation and then one brother kills the other, but I can also see their stark differences. 25:57.932 --> 26:00.113 [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a strong opinion, I'd love to hear it. 26:00.893 --> 26:07.957 [SPEAKER_00]: Send a new message at folkfilespodcast at gmail.com or send a direct message on social media at folkfilespodcast. 26:08.557 --> 26:11.659 [SPEAKER_00]: That's also where you can reach me if you have any corrections or questions. 26:12.979 --> 26:19.063 [SPEAKER_00]: Each month, I've been highlighting a specific folk resource, including festivals, folk sings, and podcasts. 26:19.803 --> 26:28.548 [SPEAKER_00]: A couple months ago, folklorist and vocalist Derek Peter reached out to me to let me know about his fieldwork archive, an amazing collection of source recordings. 26:29.609 --> 26:39.595 [SPEAKER_00]: You can search through this resource by song title, singer, and geographic arithmetic tags, or you could click here, a random recording, and maybe learn a new song. 26:40.763 --> 26:46.985 [SPEAKER_00]: While there are no recordings of two brothers, there are a ton of examples of other songs that have been featured on Folk Viles. 26:47.766 --> 26:50.087 [SPEAKER_00]: I've linked to the fieldwork archive in my episode notes. 26:51.167 --> 26:53.408 [SPEAKER_00]: A big thank you to Derek for this amazing resource. 26:54.068 --> 26:58.510 [SPEAKER_00]: If any of you have a resource that you'd like me to highlight in a coming episode, send me a message. 26:59.591 --> 27:05.213 [SPEAKER_00]: Folk Viles is now an official member of the Bluegrass Situation Podcast Network, which I'm really excited about. 27:06.053 --> 27:07.716 [SPEAKER_00]: None of my episodes are going to change. 27:08.257 --> 27:13.544 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll still be talking about whatever songs or themes interest me or are recommended by listeners. 27:14.543 --> 27:19.567 [SPEAKER_00]: But now I'm connected to an amazing community of other folk music lovers and history buffs. 27:20.547 --> 27:23.270 [SPEAKER_00]: You may have heard some promotions at the start of this episode. 27:23.830 --> 27:33.297 [SPEAKER_00]: That's new too, but luckily I get to hand-pick what you hear, so it should all be information about other bluegrass situation podcasts, small businesses, and good causes. 27:34.018 --> 27:37.080 [SPEAKER_00]: I highly recommend checking out the other podcasts in the BGS network. 27:38.492 --> 27:49.492 [SPEAKER_00]: We're coming up on the second anniversary of the death of Heather Wood, a member of Folk Revival Group, the Young Tradition, and an absolute inspiration to many in the Folk Music community, including myself. 27:50.787 --> 27:55.212 [SPEAKER_00]: She was a pillar of exceedingly good songnight, which I've mentioned on this podcast multiple times. 27:56.173 --> 28:07.084 [SPEAKER_00]: While her voice is currently resounding at the fantastic party that she believed greets us all after death, I'd like to end this episode with her short but bewitching version of the Rolling of the Stones. 28:08.025 --> 28:08.706 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening. 28:12.440 --> 28:17.062 [SPEAKER_11]: Or will you go and see pretty Susy? 28:17.382 --> 28:20.843 [SPEAKER_11]: Don't so long now, will you? 28:21.883 --> 28:25.845 [SPEAKER_11]: Will you drink of the plot? 28:26.265 --> 28:29.966 [SPEAKER_11]: The white wine and the red? 28:30.886 --> 28:35.488 [SPEAKER_11]: Or will you go and see pretty Susy? 28:35.888 --> 28:39.349 [SPEAKER_11]: When the tie am dead? 28:40.332 --> 28:57.050 [SPEAKER_11]: Susie chunned the birds from this sky, the fish from above the bay I'd been there she had a jewel on top, and there was content to stay