[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to feeding them out the bite you.
[SPEAKER_00]: A weekly podcast guide on parenting teams and launching them into the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Cynthia Gannonff, and as always, I'm joined by psychologists and author, Dr. Ken Wilgus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Ken, how's it going over there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Doing well.
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you, Cynthia?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know what, we're getting by.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's summer, Dr. Ken, and it's summer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's summer.
[SPEAKER_00]: All the kids come home from college.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about that in another show coming up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kids are home from college.
[SPEAKER_00]: Little ones out of school.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just doing all the things, but it's going well.
[SPEAKER_00]: How's empty nesting?
[SPEAKER_00]: Same in the summer as it is in the winter.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the best thing ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's all good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: We all, we all are real thrilled for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, we're talking about sneaky teens today and um, just things they do that are sneaky and or we think they're sneaky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they don't think it's sneaky and I was thinking back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, was I sneaky as a teen and I'm just going to get everybody to the heads up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really was pretty much I was a role follower and did what I supposed to think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what our guess is yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I did skip school, like, you know, a couple times every spring in the high school because I wanted to tan, but am I did not have permission?
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have, you wanted to tan, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is only fun, because I lived in El Paso.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a desert.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was always tanning, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would call my mom when I got to wherever I was going and be like, hey, just once you know I'm skipping school and she's like, okay, well, you don't have my permission.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I know, but I just didn't want you to worry
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was a conscientious.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not sneaky.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is the.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a conscientious sneaky I've ever heard.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the sneakiest thing you did?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm not going to be any much more help.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in my room, this is hard to describe, but my bedroom had a laundry shoot.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was this little door you could open, there was a box, but the box actually stuck out into the attic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one time when my parents were gone, my friend and I,
[SPEAKER_01]: It took longer than you'd think, but found how to pop the top of that box off so that I could get out into my attic and then out of my house without being detected.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I built an escape route.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually had the movie, what was the greatest scape in mind, and so I made an escape route.
[SPEAKER_01]: But just to send the other whole story, I never used it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's...
[SPEAKER_00]: We couldn't be later.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were a fail.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're a big fail.
[SPEAKER_00]: One time I was in my son's room and he had, um, I found these like, watered pieces of paper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of, I mean, he, we're burned.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, on the end, and I go, what am I looking at?
[SPEAKER_00]: You go, start laughing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I forgot.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a middle school.
[SPEAKER_00]: When me and my friend Noah would fake smoke, but we just rolled up notebook paper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll try that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk a little bit about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sneaking around just a normal part of adolescence or do we need to assume it's just a deeper issue and they will serve time one day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to start by really thinking about what are we calling sneaky.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, there's a podcast called The Rest of History, Great Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's British guys and they any time the American Warfare Independence comes up, they call it the tax revolt because their brits and they still think they own America.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: as they would say during that period in the 18th century, American colonists were sneaky.
[SPEAKER_01]: they were not sharing everything like they should.
[SPEAKER_00]: So strategic, but sneaky.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think those guys are so British, they might talk about the pathology of, that's just the way Americans are because they don't, they don't tell the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would say, no, you were over-controlling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so sneaky, you always want to think about, what is the purpose of it?
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you are a teenager turning off your location on your phone, for example, that is sneaky, but the idea of what we want to talk about is, do you sit down and say, hey, we're concerned about your character because you lie and I hear that all the time, Dr. Wilson, he looks me straight in the face and lies because you're an occupying army.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of sneaky for that goal is not surprising and shouldn't be that it also does not overlap into kids that lied to their parents end up in jail for, you know, for fraud.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, my youngest, I'll tell him often.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, this is a much younger child than what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he'll do something that he wouldn't do if I was watching.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will say sneaking is lying and we don't lie and we don't sneak.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we talk to us all time sneaking is lying.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you fast forward to adolescence and we're as as part of your book, what we're doing here is trying to have independence in these where we're raising them to be independent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And go do the things that they're called to do in their life and live normal lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that line between sneaky is lying and really sneaky, what we think is sneaky is independence on their part, like how do we walk that line with them?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I should add that when I am talking to a teenager who the parents complain that we ask him to do your homework and he says yes and whatever, when the parents are there, the teenage side of that is they're still an option.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to lie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you have the courage to tell your parents?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not wish to answer that question because I don't think that's your concern.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they always look at me wide-eyed like, oh,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, life's tough.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're battling for your independence, and you know, we already talked about you should be doing your homework before they ask anyway, and I'll fund what that be to say, yes, and I don't need you to ask.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so, but the point is even though they're often trying to get around your authority, they can still remain have character and be honest people if they had the courage
[SPEAKER_01]: to tell you the truth that I do not want you to be monitoring this aspect of my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's still a good thing to aim for.
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely think before adolescence, especially young children, really, really need to learn
[SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, if you cannot be trusted and most every parent knows this, that you really got to talk to your kids about, if you develop any kind of reputation of someone that isn't honest, it will subtly, like, termites really kind of eat into your relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: People will not count on you and will not trust what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: with teenagers that's not a great time to pull out that speech because even they won't even say then that look I don't lie to other people and just lie to you they never think about that they'll just sit quietly and it'll register as another speech that we've talked about that they don't listen to it they don't remember well and it's hard because would you you have to be prepared
[SPEAKER_00]: To hear, if you really don't, if you want to know all the things and that's sneaky you didn't tell me then you have to be prepared to hear that and so for example, let's say drinking, well, if you're going to drink, I want to know it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, then that feels like you can don't it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you're sneaking around drinking, then you can't be trusted like I think it's a hard mix because there's a lot of things that you're like, you better be lying to me if you're doing it because that's not allowed in our house.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we do with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's this conundrum of we deserve to know everything you're up to yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't want to know everything you're up to probably.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I figured out then you're a liar, like how do we have these conversations that foster open communication?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yet at the same time not at the expense of letting go of the things that we say we're not doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's a couple of levels.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first one is I'm not a big fan of as a good parent, that means that your kids trust teenagers, trust to tell you everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because number one, they don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, trust me, if there's anything they think about sexually, you don't want to hear everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're thinking about sexual, that's just kind of weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not essential for their independence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I need to know it as the primary thing, especially with something like drinking, is a very slippery slope because then you end up not holding them accountable because I want to make sure they keep telling me that's a whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, though, when they are getting back to what they're sneaky about,
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think there's a difference between, um, I told you I was going to sell in so-so-so, but actually went to sell in so-so-so-so, or I told you I don't have any homework when I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are your plain old, I'm trying not to be monitored because I think you're monitoring me as unfair.
[SPEAKER_01]: then you get into something like drinking, which is illegal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not just your mother and me that are saying this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's illegal and they end up having to do quite a bit of sneaking just to participate in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a hidden side effect to regular, illegal stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I've even known teenagers that you know he and his friends drink a lot but he really likes this girl and she doesn't do that very much so he'll sneak around her and so you really want to be able to I think part of it is accepting that hey I get it that you lied because you you don't you don't like us monitoring that
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the same as these other situations where your illegal activity, it really starts to work on your character when you get used to line to someone and you're not even bothered by it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, really, if you think about it, feeding the mouth helps parents not put their kid too much in that situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they don't want to, you're help with when are you going to do your homework, then just don't ask.
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps them not to have to get into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I don't want to minimize that if you do come across pretty regular pattern of
[SPEAKER_01]: illegal behavior, then it's not an all a small thing to talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do recognize how much lying you have to do to be involved in this and what, you know, these things that you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, you guys, I have to tell you something happened over here at our house the other day and I'm not proud of it or maybe I am, but I cleaned out a separate drawer in my kitchen just for my careway pants and it wasn't because I needed the space or there was a drawer that was empty but it's because these pants are better than being lumped in with all my old cookware.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's ridiculous, but what cracks me up is it originally I wanted the care away because it was so pretty.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have that black set with a gold hardware in
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty fancy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It looks like it belongs to one of those kitchens where people casually make pasta on a Tuesday night.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am very much not that person, but the other night I was making broccoli with parmesan cheese and somehow I managed over cook it which tells you all you need to know about my culinary abilities and I'm not kidding.
[SPEAKER_00]: even with the Parmesan cheese cooked onto the pan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing stuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I stared at for a second because I was already mentally preparing for the scrubbing session, but it wiped right out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I realized at that moment that my relationship with cooking is changing because there is no longer
[SPEAKER_00]: the punishment when it comes to cleanup.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, Careway is made without PFAS, PTFE and PFOA.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel good about using it every day for my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I become a person who talks about cookware.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I become a person who is dedicated an entire drawer in my kitchen to care away.
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, I have no regrets.
[SPEAKER_00]: So join me in this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Plus, also you'll receive a free airtight duo valued at $125, with qualifying purchases over $675.
[SPEAKER_00]: Visit carawayhome.com slash FTM, again, carawayhome.com, backslash FTM, to take an additional 10% off your next purchase, or use the code FTM at checkout.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's a new segment we call to freak or not to freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you know when to freak out or not?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean really because we're not gonna really freak out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to freak or not to freak is this new segment just today and I'm sure it'll never come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need a music.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need some sort of bumper music to freak or not to freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kate jump on that please.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, our editor.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, here's the question.
[SPEAKER_00]: You figure out they've created fake social media accounts or at the end account.
[SPEAKER_01]: Freak.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fence to.
[SPEAKER_01]: A fake Instagram, a fake Instagram is called a fence to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe all teenagers have a fence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember the percentage, but I think it's all.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do not freak because that is a very good example of a teenager who really thinks that this is none of your business.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, not freaking does not mean that you don't do anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for young teenagers, if you're still trying to manage that, then you should have a consequence for up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Found out that you have a fake Instagram account, so you were restricted for this amount of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But freak out is in, uh, I need to call a psychologist or get an extra system over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something horrible is happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I wouldn't freak out about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: To freak or not to freak, your teen is, uh, in a secret.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to speak, I'm an air-coating secret relationship, whether that's deeming, Boyer girl or meeting up with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here and there, and you don't know anything about it, and I mean, and by the way, why wouldn't you tell me it has to be bad?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because otherwise you would tell me all the intimate details of this crush or this new relationship like
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all right, so you don't freak if it is this boy because you told me I can't have a boyfriend and so Again, you got to look at have you been clear about when will you allow that when it'll be up to them?
[SPEAKER_01]: you do freak if it's an increasing relationship with sending pictures and so forth to someone who they've never physically met claims to be a high school student in Belgium.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then yeah, you can freak over that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, hidden relationships with
[SPEAKER_01]: I would deal with it pretty firmly, but hidden relationships with people that are just online, that's much more dangerous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: When my brother was in high school, he got an F and typing, which is hard to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is back when we all took, like literally, only fashion sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: F and typing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he went into the typing class and tried to fix his F with the typewriter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was so bad that he actually put a hole in the report card where the F was trying to put an A in, which leads to the next Frick or not to level of irony in that story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of our favorite stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: To freak or not to freak, hiding bad grades, skipping class, and not calling your mom when you skip class, all of those school-related activities, thoughts on that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first, Cynthia, nobody calls their mom when they skip school.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're the only human I've ever heard of, that skip school, and talk to your mom, so, hiding grades.
[SPEAKER_01]: not good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's, it's very short-sighted because it, it, it doesn't work very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's, I would rethink, especially with a teenager, that's a good example of,
[SPEAKER_01]: are they only concerned about your thoughts about grades and no disappointment for themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't freak, but that's not a good thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Skipping school, you can freak earlier because skipping school, especially with friends, can become almost like an addictive habit where you definitely should shut that down.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'll just say, I am not always but often disappointed,
[SPEAKER_01]: is that it seems to me I don't know what other people have experienced, but many of our high schools have seemingly given up on trying to monitor where their students are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's disappointing because it's it's way helpful for parents to know that the school is going to take care of giving consequences for that and often they don't, and that that's always been strange to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you can freak out a little on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and then the last one, and this was a question which kind of brought up this whole topic that we receive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talked out body piercings, tattoos, all those things, and this particular listener question related to figuring out their childhood, gotten a piercing of some sort, or maybe as a tattoo, or maybe both, and they'm not knowing.
[SPEAKER_00]: What about that to freak or not to freak?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it had to be a piercing, because you can't get a tattoo, unless it's a prison tattoo, you ever seen those?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it says that I have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing says that I'm right-handed and been in jail like a across on my left-hand, right, the crooked my thumb and first finger just.
[SPEAKER_01]: But piercing, yeah, that's, I mean, again, never, I don't think you ever freak out, but you definitely want to think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: When are we going to tell this teenager it's your body?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think even piercings, technically, you could, you know, if you go to a place where they do piercings, you have to have your parents permission if you're under 18.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can still stick with that's illegal, but in a tattoo, definitely, that's, you know, not really legal, but then after 18, you know, hopefully you'll have enough, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: credibility established that that young adult will listen to you because I have I could tell you stories of how many tattoos and piercings kids have shown me that their parents did not know about because it's not that hard to hide it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and, you know, saying this kind of ingest about freak or not to freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: But on these situations where it is more of like, hey, yeah, maybe it's time to freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't mean literally freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not helpful to anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's this under the feeding the mouth plan.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is we're having hard conversations around it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're adding it to the things, the expectations that you will or will not do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're adding consequences.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, can you just delineate that force rope?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we want to really freak.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that is what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So things like a tattoo after your kid is 18, even if they're still in high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I always think about what is the most effective thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've had parents say that if I ever find out you got a tattoo, I'm not paying for college, turns out.
[SPEAKER_01]: they didn't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They actually, you know, you're not going to have your kid at 35.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go, yeah, well, I was going to be pre-med, but I got a tattoo.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my parents kicked me.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one actually does that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So try to be realistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as we always say, respect that, you know, at 18, if it is legal, then what, what are you gaining by,
[SPEAKER_01]: trying to over control that, piercings has always been a different issue because on a Friday night when girls are together, if you have a cork and ice and a needle, then that might happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you want to pick carefully how much you want to respond to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: an over-respond because you really want them thinking about how they manage their own body and less thinking, oh my mommy and daddy are making me do all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're getting too old for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And are there parenting styles that are more likely to lend itself to sneaking teens versus other ways you handle it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, is it, if my kids sneaking, I must be over controlling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, I noticed these kids over here, they don't seem sneaky like mine as it must because the parents have a better relationship, they communicate better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a certain like parenting attributes we're looking at that we can consider within our families if we are like, yeah, my kid is totally sneaking around doing
[SPEAKER_01]: There's really two, the one that is much harder to sneak around would be the authoritative parent with clear expectations, consequences for the things that they have said no to, and clear freedom for the things they've said yes to.
[SPEAKER_01]: The authoritarian, the parent that loves to give speeches, angry, really, it's all about me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe you're doing this in our family, all that stuff, that definitely promotes a kind of sneaky because of the extra fun of watching your dad once again, give his drunk and speech about how much better we have it than he had it while you are sitting on your tattoo or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other one is chaotic parenting or disorganized, where we talk like we know what's going on, but we're actually so busy and distracted with other things that we don't know anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that definitely encourages sneaking is because for a different reason it's because you said that I can't do this, but I don't even know that you remember that you said that so you don't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and we get questions on this a lot too, and so thoughts on families where there's divorce and maybe moms say, and yeah, get the pair sings and dad sing absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do in those kind of situations best advice on that, whether it's piercings or anything else, when there's not unity among parents, especially in the divorce situation, we get a lot of questions on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, divorce is hard, it's very difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's where things like, it's probably why we have laws on things like piercing and so forth, because, you know, hopefully you can at least be in agreement until 18, one of you can't go, well, I'm fine with it, you probably shouldn't be able to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But with teenagers, as we say in all those kind of settings, you really want to be seriously open with your teenager that, hey, I understand that at your father's house, they don't restrict this, and we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to say that out loud.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in some cases, this, I don't know that sneaky, for some reason we've landed on piercings and stuff, but when they're allowed to do certain things, say the phone is in the room all night,
[SPEAKER_01]: at the other house.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not unreasonable by the time they're in an adolescence for you to reconsider your rule because of the really hard landing every time they come back to your house and making some kind of compromise.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the thing you don't want to do is to just know that that's what happens over there and I don't want to hear about it because you and I both know that we're doing it right over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the least effective kind of stand to take on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if I want to make sure that we're all falling new on after 18, because in my mind, I kind of would want to say to my post-18 year old, my one in college, maybe, or out we're working for us, that once it's tattooed, no, let's not say working for us, once in college, it's still on my payroll, or living at home, or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they want to tattoo.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my inclination is
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're not doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they are older than 18.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's the philosophy on whether it's piercings or tattoos or whatever thing is after 18, do we have to step out of it if they're not in our home?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you can assess it for yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would always assess the balance of on the one hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is my real ability to make sure this thing is not happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's a lot of, you know about a white, you ever seen a white tattoo, white ink?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's, yeah, it's kind of cool, but it's also pale easily hidden, but, you know, so, on the one hand, after 18, do I have a lot of ability to make sure this doesn't happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then balance that, also with the side effect of, do I want to add to my 18 year olds feeling of it being in,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, over-controlling.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if it comes down to, I can't make sure it doesn't happen, and it adds to their resentment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then most of the time that means it's not very effective to just make a rule you can't follow.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I think there's variations in that if you've got a kid that's working on a half sleeve with some guy that he's paying $5,000 to, yeah, you can definitely talk about wait a minute, where are you getting all that money because you still, we let you live here in the summers, you know, all that stuff, you know, is essentially supporting them financially.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you could, but ultimately, it is their body at that point in
[SPEAKER_01]: you want to be respectful of that even when you watch them making choices that you really worry about and communication is supposed to be is usually extremely helpful with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then last question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was did you refer to as Fenster or fake Instagram?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fenster.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fenster.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fake Instagram account or a sneaky one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm ending with this because you always say that phones are like the bane of your existence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so probably very common that a parent figured out there is a fake offense to if you will, or they're messaging with someone that you didn't know, or this, this, that, or the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we have a right to have access to their phones whenever we want it, if they're under 18?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, your phone is it helpful and effective?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we know now from the anxious generation, Jonathan Height, everyone should read at least a summary.
[SPEAKER_01]: We now have almost a definitive answer that really parents should be restricting social media until your teenager is 16.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's not talked about is that once they are 16, at that point, I think you do best to not be monitoring it, and other than I want to be able to, you have to friend me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would be careful at that point if you're going to enter in at that stage, that the whole point here is that we expect them to have some reasonable judgment about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: pretty patronizing to have parents say okay we'll let you have this but we're going to check this and all the and like the fence to things how in the world did that become a thing because it's very easy to get in there and set up your own thing that has unrestricted stuff and secret stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when they do frenge you when you require that, it's been my experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should totally then start putting up like baby pictures of in different things and tag them.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, I think we're going to edit that out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably the best thing to do at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, Cynthia makes choices that are not the best.
[SPEAKER_00]: This whole podcast is really, it's really come down to kids just trying to intervene in my family.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to rain it in.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all I'm trying to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we appreciate your expertise.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're looking forward to next week's show.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about when the adultish kids come home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm home from college as adultish.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: So come back everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Dr. Kim.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Cynthia.