[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the NoBad Dogs podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is incredible because we dive into a really particular common situation with Air Quartz separation anxiety and we kind of defined like, okay, should we correct the dog?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is medication appropriate?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is this happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: What can we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is taken from a question out of the Tom Davis online academy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I go live every week with my students on there and this question came around and I just recorded it because I thought it was going to be really helpful for you guys and I know it is it's absolutely like such a great segue into separation anxiety and how to work with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you guys are watching this on YouTube or even on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Spotify, you'll notice that it's not 100% in 4K because it's just recorded through my thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you are watching the video, but it's still amazing information.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't talk about it hardly at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was just a snapshot out of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the questions out of the live.
[SPEAKER_00]: So enjoy this guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you will.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's going to be helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it was for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a two-year-old female, spade, pity mix named, as a potential boarding dog in July.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's really sweet, manner dog, but used to be reactive due to over-excitement around other dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I've only experienced her to be neutral with her owners, or sorry, her owners are currently in training program at the facility I work at to deal with her separation anxiety.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a rescue who's bounced around until she was adopted by her current owners.
[SPEAKER_00]: After seven months, they were able to leave the house for up to three to four hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did an overnight trial with my own Alas Knight and, or last week, and while she was finding the crate, the moment I stepped out with my dog, she went to a full panic, essentially back to square one in that new environment or that situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was watching 100 camera and almost immediately she started to bark how and then tried to break out of her crate, but either biting it or headbudding it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, given that, I wouldn't be able to leave the house during the stay, the boarding stay, and the owners have agreed to a few more trial nights before their vacation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I have been working on stepping out and then back inside several times and rewarding the calmness, but as far as correcting her, especially when she's trying to break out of the crate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm contemplating my options.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would like to consider maybe the e-collar, which she's never experienced, and wanted your opinion on whether that would be fair for her, or if, if so, what level would be effective?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would ensure that the balance of the adverse of measure of the e-collar would be with with positive experiences, like Creighton Games, she doesn't fear the Creight, any advice would be appreciated.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good question, Monica.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I would recommend for a dog that, I mean, there's a couple of different options here, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking about a dog with what some would say clinical separation anxiety, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a dog that actually is harming themselves when you are not present.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the interesting thing is, is your relationship monica as the trainer,
[SPEAKER_00]: is not the same as the owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the owners can get away with three to four hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't get away with three to four minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that tells you that the relationship between the dog and the person who's conducting this exercise matters.
[SPEAKER_00]: And or the environment could also matter too, because the other variable here is that the dog is at your house and not
[SPEAKER_00]: their house.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's an interesting concept too that it could be the environment, it could be the relationship with the person that's leaving and or both.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so as far as what you can do, I think that there's
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a couple of different options.
[SPEAKER_00]: If applicable, you, I mean, and I don't know if this is, but obviously that trying to do this exercise at their home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't even have to do it overnight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just go over in a day when maybe the owners aren't home and just see if that separation is the same there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning if you step out of the house and the dog freaks out,
[SPEAKER_00]: then you know that it's probably the relationship between you and the dog and it's not just you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably just somebody else that's not the owners because the owners have spent the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it tells me, says the first thing I would do and then the other thing to to point out is if the owners can go from assuming the same situation of not being able to leave the home without this severe panic attack and they can now go up to four hours,
[SPEAKER_00]: getting to a point where you can leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know in your question, you said, well, now I can't leave at all, which under these circumstances and contexts is probably true because we don't want the dog to hurt herself or get out and then cause more damage to your home or the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also just tells us that there actually is an opportunity for progression there because the owners have done it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my first question would be to the owners
[SPEAKER_00]: But then there's the reality of reality, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where it's like, these owners want to be humans and go away and leave their dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is that possible?
[SPEAKER_00]: So my first, the low hanging fruit would be making the dog the most comfortable as possible would be assuming going to their home if that's an option.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second would be asking the owners, you guys have done that with the same thing and you have accomplished four hours and you're not trainers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what have you done?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as far as outside of those things like what can we do for training or whatever options, this is a dog that would like the quality of life for this dog when you leave starts to deteriorate, which is something I'm always mindful of as a professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now again, very, very often we see people say separation anxiety, my dog has separation anxiety and that just means that the dog winds a little bit or doesn't want you to leave and scratches at the door for 30 seconds when you leave and then goes and lays down or a dog might bark for 20 minutes and then goes and lays down that's just separation anxiety like clinical separation anxiety is a dog actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: self-harming themselves to try to get out of a crate to get to you or get out of a house to get to you jumping out windows, headbudding the crate, like you've said, and that's something that you have to take very seriously because we don't want the dog to be hurt obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we also have to have a reality of like we have to leave, like the dog, we can't be around the dog at all times.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not healthy for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not healthy for the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's certainly not healthy for the relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to figure out a way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I would say, again, low hanging fruit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lots of exercise.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure Monica, that you've done treadmill work, or, I mean, that's the first thing I would do.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I was at my facility, I would do treadmill work.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would do we need to get some demons head of that dog and work the dog for as long as we comfortably and safely can on the treadmill.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be doing walks, I would be doing exposure, and just seeing if that puts a dent in some of that separation, you know, trying to tie the dog out in lamus terms.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've done that successfully, then the next step would be like CBD, I think that, you know, again, CBD is a very generalized thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but it does work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is helpful for sure if you get the right CBD.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're looking at CBD products, make sure you get a certificate of authenticity.
[SPEAKER_00]: on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what it's called, but it's like, it's a sort of a, I don't know, I'm at a CBD expert, but I know it's like, it's like the dosage is actually what's in the bottle and it's actual CBD, like it's, it's going to help.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know like for Lakota recently, we've been given her that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been really helpful for her with thunderstorms and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then outside of that, then you kind of split
[SPEAKER_00]: or talk about medication, and as you guys know, like medication is widely widely over prescribed to dogs that do not need it.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, medication is life-changing for some dogs who actually need it, but the amount of dogs who are medicated that actually need it, very slim to none, almost.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a whole other thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just looking at your notes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the owners did the same thing that you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's taken them about seven months to get that duration of, okay, so that you did say that after seven months, they were able to leave the house with what you're doing, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that makes sense, that's good context.
[SPEAKER_00]: So obviously, like that's not a realistic timeframe.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the owners want to leave any time soon, and even then four hours is not enough time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's reasonably, you know, likely for anybody to leave,
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me it would be at the end of exercise potential like natural CBD to chill the dog out which there's certainly again like levels to CBD so make sure you do your research about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can put some links for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: of Angela who makes my codog, which she makes like legitimate stuff that actually is helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: But outside of that, then we start talking about correcting the dog for this behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, obviously, so when we talk about correcting a dog for behavior, the reason why we would correct a dog outside of communicating to the dog what they're doing is wrong, but it's also to help them become less stressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if a dog is reactive, we correct them and say, hey stop, they go, oh life's better when I don't do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You think?
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is very similar, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where the dog is headbutting, anxious, scraping, whining, not good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then what you would do is you would say, OK, if I can stop this dog by correcting it, and then the dog spins around a couple of times and lays down since sleeps, I think we can use our critical thinking here and say, that's obviously a better opportunity for the dog, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: We should do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the long-term effect and the long-term stress of this dog is significantly minimized by being able to sleep and or the owners or even you Monica who's working with this dog don't have that way on your shoulders of like, oh my gosh, what's the dog doing when I'm gone, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're checking the camera and the dog sleeping.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we talk about this type of correction, it can be helpful, Monica, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously the remote collar, given that it is using modern technology to communicate with a dog wirelessly, isn't beautiful opportunity to do that, because you can be out of the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be in your car in the driveway and correct the dog for headbutting the door off like a dinosaur and drastic park.
[SPEAKER_00]: or hurt themselves or both.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so obviously, again, we can all use our critical thinking skills here and say, correcting the dog and finding discomfort in the reaction is going to be far less aversive long term than the dog suffering from anxiety when you leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: For an example, if we use the vibrate on the e-collar and the Tom Davis 2 ADC, Monica, that I know that you're familiar with and that you use them blue, because I saw it on the Instagram the other day.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good correction to start off with.
[SPEAKER_00]: My question in my own head would be, do we verbal, do we use a verbal correction and can junction with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would lean towards no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just say,
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, the dog probably isn't going to exhibit this behavior until you're outside anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're not going to be able to verbalize or vocalize the correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning we're not going to say no correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think once the behavior starts, we can start testing around with some sort of corrections to see if we can just rub the behavior more than anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the dog is going,
[SPEAKER_00]: And they stopped and they're looking around and everything's chill and they're going what the hell is that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they take 30 seconds.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course you guys have watched my videos enough to know sometimes that's enough they go I'm not doing that again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we're going to get that lucky Monica.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then the next step is like we're going to be bang bang bang bang.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you might have an opportunity for the dog to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this door is creating this thing and I'm not going to go near the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to your point in your question, Monica, you said, I don't want the crate to be the bad experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, our jobs as dog trainers and dog owners is to be clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, that's not going to be the reason, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: The behavior in which the dog exhibited is what turned the correction on, not the crate.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that because we're humans, and that's what we are planning on doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we got to be careful about the dog having that suspicion of, I think, the crates doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't want that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But considering the dog's comfortability and the crate,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that that's going to be an issue, but I think if we're clear enough, and you have your camera directly on the dog in the moment that they do, you know, I think we can get away with whining.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I wouldn't be correcting whining.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not even correcting barking, but once the dog starts to self harm themselves, trying to get out of the crate, head buddy in the crate, etc.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we can start disrupting and correcting that behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the front end, it's definitely a verse if it's definitely stepping in and again disrupting the behavior potentially suppressing the behavior, but again, if we look at the risk and reward assessment here, the dog had buddy in the crate and tell their unconscious or bleeding or pop the door open and then do it again on another door or whatever, again, you know, we're all.
[SPEAKER_00]: normal rational human beings.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can all say that that is not good.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like 10 out of 10 out of like misery for the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Disrupting the behavior for two seconds or less throughout a duration of 30 seconds or 30 minutes is definitely going to be far less versus it and far less punitive and far less frustrating and stressful for the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure, and see how it plays out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then the next question is, like, would you use the stimulation aspect of the e-collar?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's another conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're finding that the dog is responsive to devibrate,
[SPEAKER_00]: and then they start to phase out the vibration and not care about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you see some results, and again, I'm looking at the sustainability and the long term effects, this is going to have on the dog's mental state of mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, the owner, we have to weigh out our options.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I always, any time I'm doing any type of training or behavioral cases with any my clients, I'm looking at risk reward assessments, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If the dog doesn't get better, what's the risk?
[SPEAKER_00]: Owners can't go anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dog is stressed significantly for long durations.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a loose loose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Owners can't leave dog can't chill.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lose loose, not realistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a win-win, a very subtle momentary bit of discomfort to create long-term effects of happiness and calmness.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to any human listening and watching could we could all agree like, yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be my answer to that as far as the association to the crate, yes, you just have to make sure that
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the dog doesn't have that association with the crate by, but I don't think that's going to happen because the only time the corrections going to come out is if the dog does it not when they go in, if the dog went in there and we corrected them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, the dog goes in we're good nothing happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you spend 20 minutes in the crate nothing happens as soon as the dog starts headboarding the crate it happens dogs are smart enough to know it's the behavior dogs are also smart enough to know like
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they get put into the crate and they're like, I'm going to try to get out and I'm going to get corrected and I don't want to so they can, you know, I've seen dogs do that where they're like, that's the thing that controls me and I'd rather just do what I want.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you just again, you have to, you know, it's like bedtime for kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: They start crying because they got to go to bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, a few bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, but it's also what you have to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what we have to do to, you know, I can't let you stay up to 12 o'clock at night, one o'clock in the morning, and you're gonna be miserable and tired and your brain needs like, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be my answer to you Monica is to start there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then again, just to split hairs on the medication so medication,
[SPEAKER_00]: has a lot more side effects than just correcting your dog with a remote collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's way long lasting, but again, it could yield the same results that the e-collar could.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you find medication that chills the dog out, we also have to realize that
[SPEAKER_00]: However, it's still yielding us results.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if the e-colour fails, still a good option, because inevitably, we don't want the dog owners to feel like they can't go on vacation.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only downfall to that is if the dog has to be created often, the dog's pretty much going to have to be medicated the whole time they're gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, pleasure over pain, risk over reward here.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I were the owners and I said, Hey, I'm going on a honeymoon with my wife once in a lifetime, literally opportunity here, I'll medicate my dog for a week and come back and the dog is not, you know, everything is going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, if they have to do this for a long period of time, I feel like that's not a good quality of life because the dog is going to be a puddle because when they come home from
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever, the medication is lasting, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if they laughed at eating the morning, medicated the dog and then, you know, came back at four, the dog's still gonna be really medicated and hungover and not themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not a good way to live with the dog sustainably.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you saw that, so that would be,
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be my answer on all that is I think medication short term if the owners are like, hey, we go on one vacation a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just what has to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would agree with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's a snapshot in time that the dog is comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fake comfort, but it's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like taking pain medication after you broke your arm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, that's needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're not going to take pain medication for the rest of our life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not sustainable.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not real, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that that's how you would kind of split the hairs of the medication options.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, there's multiple steps before you get to medication.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's my answer, and hopefully that's helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the questions do we have?