[SPEAKER_00]: This episode and the entire season of episodes is proudly brought to you by California Cryobank.
[SPEAKER_00]: Use Code Quirfam 26 for a free, level 3 subscription to their donor Catalog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she talks about when they compare people who have donor openness, meaning they have an open donor, they know who the donor is, and they compare the levels of functioning of those families, compared to the people who have communication openness, which they define as being able to talk to your kids and have this open dialogue, they can come to you at any time, they know they're not going to get shut down,
[SPEAKER_01]: they know you don't feel any sort of itch about it, they know that you're happy to talk about it whatever they're curious and there's that openness that they can feel my parent feels comfortable with this topic and the kids who had the communication openness did even better than the kids who had the open identity donation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to share that fact with certain people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome y'all to the queer family podcast, to show all about family, but with gay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your gay host, Jamie, and this is the show that highlights celebrates uplifts and normalizes.
[SPEAKER_00]: LGBTQIA plus families in all of our fabulous identities.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this episode is a good one, because you know when it's happening, it's happening during our wonderful pride extravaganza.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means for the entire month of June, Pride Month, you're not only getting one weekly episode every Monday.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're getting two weekly episodes, one on Monday, one on Thursday, and this one is a really good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is part two of the conversation that I had with Lisa Schuman, who I lovingly referred to as Lisa.
[SPEAKER_00]: therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you haven't listened to part one yet, it's the one right before this, go take a listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's the founder of the Center for Family Building.
[SPEAKER_00]: She used co-author of building your family, the complete guide to donor conception and she is host of the podcast building your family with Lisa.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's also an adoptive mother of two.
[SPEAKER_00]: And did I mention she's a therapist and she always makes me feel better about anything that's going on in my life not going to like and we had this fun idea that we would kind of share and episode together.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this episode in her form is going up on her podcast this week and mine part one and part two is going up on mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're doing like a little prior celebration about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And part two of my conversation with Lisa is really awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: We kind of flip the chairs and I'm the interviewer this time, whereas in part one, she interviewed me about many things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now in part two, we flip the chairs, I interview Lisa and I interview Lisa about her decades long work in reproductive medicine and in donor conception and how things have changed and the things that she's seen
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really awesome because whereas my answers are all kind of based on heart and like what I've noticed talking to all the wonderful people I've interviewed and my own family journey, Lisa comes in with facts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Lisa comes in with statistics and Lisa comes in with studies that prove things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a really fun conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to hear some really affirming things about our family.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're going to hear some things that might make you relax about some of the fears you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I hope you all enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I hope you're having a wonderful pride and keep keep the celebrations going because we all deserve it right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stay safe out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get Lisa in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's roll Lisa in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: Helen, Bula, can you come roll this tape please?
[SPEAKER_00]: They get right up.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're coming over with cigarettes in hand whiskey glasses in hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just kidding.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a assistance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sitting here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm yelling at my dog on the couch basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's roll the tape.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Helen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Bula.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have some questions for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: As a person who has been advocating reproductive medicine and queer families for decades, what was it like to be in those rooms early on and what did you have to fight for that people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Take for granted today.
[SPEAKER_00]: What am I taking for granted?
[SPEAKER_00]: Be so the therapist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll start by sharing something personal, so when I was growing up, I grew up in New York City and I went to school in Greenwich Village in the late 60s or early 70s.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go to PS41?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I went to Village Community School.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so west-tenth street.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew queer families.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the most people I would imagine that you would see out there in the world probably didn't know a lot of queer families back then, but I always did and my mother's best friend was my gay man and so this was part of my family, part of my culture, part of the way that I
[SPEAKER_01]: experience the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I started working in reproductive medicine, I was on the board of a group called the American Partility Association, which was displayed off from resolve at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very active in ASRM.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I first started in this industry and everywhere I looked, it felt like there was a part of my family missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could talk about all these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: lack quality and the importance of understanding how to make sure that you can develop an ovary and develop the follicles enough so that you can retrieve the eggs and there was no discussion in any part of this about how to build queer families and in addition to that, there were a lot of clinics, even
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the university-based clinics that require that there was a male and female partner in order to have children, no single people, no queer people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was shocking to me and very upsetting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I did a lot of pushing ahead, back then, towards groups that were really not very responsive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of where it all started, reproductive medicine for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then throughout the years, I've been working in different spaces, trying to do all I can to help.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I developed all sorts of programming, I've run workshops for queer families.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've done lots of things within different communities to really try to help the queer community.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was director of mental services for a group called gay parents to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, over the years, fortunately, I've been lucky enough and it's not certainly not because of anything I've done to be able to watch where families feel more normalized in the world, which has been the most beautiful unfolding, that is just something that was completely out of my understanding,
[SPEAKER_01]: Really, this tough system that felt intractable, but over the years it changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel very luckily to be able to participate in it, and be witness to it, and build for me, which what feels more like my own family, which is inclusion of everyone, and the reproductive community.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been a trailblazer for for the queers and just the elephant in the room here, Lisa, you are not clear and we forgive you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We forgive you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I help you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are one of us honorarily and you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're basically raised by queer people.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like so you're basically like a donor conceived child.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to go with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, let's go with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You put me in that slot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, yeah, you've been a trailblazer for us and you've been doing it for so long.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you're insight into what has changed is actually really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you know better than me, what has changed because I've only been hearing the stories of my community for nine years at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have my experience out in the world and that's what I have.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you have a lot of actual degrees and stuff for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I we appreciate you, Lisa, the therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I have another question for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You ran workshops for donor conceived children for years at the LGBT Center.
[SPEAKER_00]: What did those children teach you that no research paper could?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is one that we're all gonna lean heavily into because queer parents, all of us, if we're being honest, worry that our children might be upset about the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: they can see.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're conceived.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they will be.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't seem like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's always that little nagging fear, like, oh my God, what if?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, what if those people are right who say the things they say?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to lean into this answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's something you've learned?
[SPEAKER_00]: We've learned from the children.
[SPEAKER_01]: with the research and we can talk about this later.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did publish research for same-sex male couples and same-sex female couples because I was really curious about some of the things that were happening in the reproductive medicine community and certainly read the research and have been for a very long time on donor-conceived families and many of those families, particularly the ones that
[SPEAKER_01]: the families that were studied in Europe are from the queer community because they were the most open about their experience, as you said, the intentionality, most open from day one with their children about their origins and really helped give us a lot of information.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the workshops that I ran, so I ran a workshop called Tip Top, which originally was created for the adoption community and I re-created it with my partner at the time for the donor-conceived community.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it really helps children find ways to share their story or not with other people because as we were talking about before, your feelings about having donor-conceived children and your issues around it may be very different than your children, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Your children may
[SPEAKER_01]: have the same opinions about it that you do, and you may be a so-box person and want to get up until the world everything, or you may be a more private person, but your children might be different, and so how can they own who they are, and also go out in the world in a way that feels comfortable for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this workshop really focuses on helping kids,
[SPEAKER_01]: understand different ways to do that, understanding themselves and understanding their community and how they really want to show up in the world as a donor-conceived person from a queer family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they were great workshops, unfortunately I had to end them after COVID and hopefully one day I'll bring them back.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I really learned a couple of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: One is we had three groups of kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had the young kids starting at five up until and up until adolescents.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then the kids pre at a lesson just starting at a lesson and the kids in at a lesson and a little bit older.
[SPEAKER_01]: And out of all three of those groups, the kids that the parents were most concerned about were the little ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were the largest number of attendees we had at all of these even when I ran the adoption workshops for nine years.
[SPEAKER_01]: was the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think parents do worry about their kids and if their kids are going to be connected to them and how their kids are going to feel about it and how their kids are going to feel about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think once they get that established and as you're saying,
[SPEAKER_01]: you get out into the world and you're a parent and you're parenting your child and once you put in the work to help them understand their story, you can go have a life and so I think the older kids really didn't have as much to talk about with regard to this during adolescence or might be some things but for the most part the parents felt much more settled in their
[SPEAKER_01]: And the second thing has to do with what you talked about before Jamie and that's the role of genetics and how parents start to think about their kids differently when they're in their lives that there isn't this same fear what's it going to be like because now you're loving your child, now you're feeling connected to your child and your partner may have some issues
[SPEAKER_01]: If maybe the in laws are not very welcoming, if they are in a situation where they don't feel really taken into the community, there can be all sorts of extending circumstances that can lead into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think being able to feel like this genetic issue doesn't have to be in the forefront of their mind all the time, that they can go to the business of being parents, is really important for people to realize and to see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, you, you told me early on when we first started this show, the first time we had you on, you talked about the drop the seed, method or the drop the seed theory, and I took that to heart and I dropped that seed constantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I dropped the seed of how they were born and there's a humor right there, like, that seed was dropping all the time and they picked it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: when they were ready to pick the nuggets up, you know, and I think that that is the important distinction when it comes to queer families as opposed to non-queer families when it comes to donor conception.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that
[SPEAKER_00]: The majority of us are very, very open and honest from the start because we actually have to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no way to hide it that something happened to make that kiddo of yours.
[SPEAKER_00]: You did something that didn't use both of your bodies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's no way to hide it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we need to give our children the tools to live out in the world when the questions start getting asked.
[SPEAKER_00]: They need to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that that's something that's unique to not just our community, but we tell our kids from the start because we have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to, too, but it really comes from a necessity.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to, we have to prepare them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, except to that point, Jamie, I just want to say one thing about that I have met with families and I know that this is not everyone who said, I don't have to talk to my kid, it's going to be obvious, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is not really in the best of just sort of child.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, and I say all the time, I show you got to talk to your kids about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to tell your kids about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're to ever be a shock.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want them to ever have a betrayal moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope, you got to talk to your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a, I actually have a really close friend, who doesn't talk to your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, one of my best friends actually gave them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just keep saying, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: You got it, you got it, and she recently comes, came to me, asking me, like, asking me, I guess, because her daughter's like 10 now, like, how does she bring up a certain thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, well, like, she knows how she was conceived, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, she's not all the enough to know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hasn't she, like, figured it out?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, hasn't she asked?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: To your point, not all of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we all need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every single person with donor conceived children, please talk to your kids about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please tell your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to hurt them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to make them better for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And wiser and smarter on the playground to be quite honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And actually, we had someone on our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can take a look at this episode with Masante Jadba who's
[SPEAKER_01]: And she talks about when they compare, people who have donor openness, meaning they have an open donor, they know who the donor is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they compare the levels of functioning of those families, compared to the people who have communication openness, which they define as being able to talk to your kids and have this open dialogue, they can come to you at any time, they know they're not gonna get shut down.
[SPEAKER_01]: they know you don't feel any sort of itch about it, they know that you're happy to talk about it whatever they're curious and there's that openness that they can feel my parent feels comfortable with this topic and the kids who had the communication openness did even better than the kids who had the open identity donation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to share that fact with some people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, talk to your kids about it, like, for real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my kids know they can ask me anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was this one time my daughter at what she was like four or five and she was asking, well, what does he look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: What does the donor look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: What does he look like as an adult?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we had baby pictures that she had seen.
[SPEAKER_00]: That we shot, we would show regularly any type of talk to if she wanted to see him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to see what's like as an adult and I got this idea from a guest of mine on my podcast who was donor conceived, who had two moms.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said when she asked that question, her mom said, well what do you think he looks like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's draw a picture to draw a picture.
[SPEAKER_00]: of what she thought her donor looked like and she named the picture and because it was a really anonymous owner because she was conceived in 80s.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like through NYU like very anonymous.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I did that with my daughter and she drew a picture of him.
[SPEAKER_00]: She put him in a rainbow, tank top shirt, he looked very gay.
[SPEAKER_00]: She named him, she named him Jake and he's still on our fridge to this day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jake is on her.
[SPEAKER_00]: It satisfied her curiosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: She felt like I was open with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked it through.
[SPEAKER_00]: We drew them together.
[SPEAKER_00]: We imagined what he might look like based on what she looks like and all the things and and then we were done with it and now just lives on our fridge and that's a funny story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now that's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great story.
[SPEAKER_01]: My kids know they can ask us anything and we're not going to be upset by it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they feel safe at home and they feel trusting of you because that's where kids broke and write us a trust like.
[SPEAKER_01]: if my parents feel uncomfortable about the subject, I can never talk to them about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I get the vibe that they feel uneasy when I raise it, then maybe I have to stay away from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if there's something wrong with the subject, that means that even if I'm, I feel like I'm just like my parents, I've got part of that person inside of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe there's something wrong with that part of me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really have to worry about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, if my parents are telling me this, maybe there's something else they're not telling you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just say that goes with, like, as the kids children get older and honesty about sex, sexual education, you know, the communication has to continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want my children to come to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want them to feel comfortable to come to me for anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if I'm doing it right, but I'm trying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Will be right back.
[SPEAKER_00]: As we're going deep on donor conception, I think it's a great time to bring up my promo code with California cryo bank.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to use Code ClearFam26 and it's going to give you a level three subscription to their donor catalog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're thinking about this being your path, if all this talk we're doing about donor conception and all the things that go with it has got you thinking, hmm, maybe I want to check this out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go use this promo code and just check it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an amazing, amazing opportunity to see kind of what's out there and get a feel for if this is the right path for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: California cryo bank has been around for almost 50 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have been helping the LGBTQIA plus community build the families of their dreams for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: They offer special services that are uniquely tailored.
[SPEAKER_00]: To our community, I say it every time they really do think about the things that matter and they think about the new ones things that go into LGBTQ family building, which is why I love them, which is why I chose them to make my babies and you might like them too So what you should do is go to cryobank.com Use code queerfam26 and you're getting a free level three subscription to your donor catalog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go check them out Then go make those babies and then come tell me about them
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's get back to the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I have another question for you, Lisa, the therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, as a therapist, you sit with people in some of their most vulnerable moments or surrounding family building.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there, like, a moment without naming any names, is there a moment that sticks with you, something that changed how you see your work, is there any big moments you can share with us?
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't name anyone, obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can, if you want, I'm scared.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I often say that, you know, as we were time up before, that people feel so different about building their families and back to our conceptions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I saw one woman who said, if I take a cake with a Betty Crocker mix,
[SPEAKER_01]: or I bake it from scratch, it's going to taste the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I worked with another woman who really struggled with the idea of using a donor, was upset the whole time, was upset through her pregnancy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she had twins.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when she had her twins, the boy, she named the girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: She had a lot of trouble in me, and had to name her second time just to feel her sense of ownership over a parenthood.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's really important to your point
[SPEAKER_01]: different feelings about these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is not an indicator of how much work we're going to love our child.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just because we have these issues that bother us about the way we build our families or how we've had to navigate any of these things, doesn't mean we're going to love our childing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I second that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also think we can make a distinction, a little distinction between that the queer world and the non-clear world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to other than non-clear, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any non-clear is out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Straight families out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome at the table.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that I'm just tired of being the one that gets other.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, I think there's the distinction between us queer families is that when we get to the point where we're choosing a donor or we're choosing the adoption path,
[SPEAKER_00]: or any of those things, it's a joyous moment for most of us because we've already done that we've already gone through the baggage of realizing that we're going to have to use something else, we're going to have to get help, that we did that work a long time ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we get to the point of actually, all right, the path is donor conception, it is a very exciting time for us, so that that sadness and that fear is not as prevalent for us and the
[SPEAKER_00]: the fears and doubts surrounding the biological connection can very much be for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think there's a distinction there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you know, straight people who had a dream their whole lives and had to pivot because it wasn't working out with their own genetic material or they didn't meet the person they were supposed to meet or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have to go through that morning process of realizing that it's not going to be the way they thought it was going to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is a really hard thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard to do and I think to your earlier point, Jamie, about struggling with fertility treatment, this is something that I see so much in the queer community is that people come in, not prepared for biology.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they say, okay, well, you know, we're going to have a baby and we'll do I-U-I and it'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just need this part.
[SPEAKER_01]: and maybe there's something wrong with the floating tubes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there are chosen sperm donor, sperm is not a good shape and they've been trying at home with a turkey baste and it's not working.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not thinking that's maybe not going right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It may not go right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe partner number one who has a baby at 33 and by the time she's 35 partner number two says you know when I think I'd like to do it also and now are already she's 35 years old and it's gonna be harder for her So I've been seeing more and more couples who've been thinking ahead, you know for those of us who have eggs and if you're in a
[SPEAKER_01]: and the same sex female couple as opposed to the same sex male couple, you have to worry about this because you have eggs.
[SPEAKER_02]: For men, they don't really have to think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're getting an egg donor who's 25 years old, regardless.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for people with eggs, it's going to make a difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's important to think about all of these things ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is your partner going to want to have a child with their genetics?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there even a chance?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to freeze embryos ahead of time?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to start thinking about this early?
[SPEAKER_01]: to be proactive about it is so important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I say this all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is one of the first questions I ask, especially queer families, when was the first time you talked about like having babies?
[SPEAKER_00]: When was the first time in your like in your relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: Every couple I talked to, when did that conversation first come up for us?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's usually the first date.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's not just, do you want kids?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, do you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're good.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can carry on.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then it's...
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless you're ideal way, what would you do, yeah, it's an ongoing conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the first questions I ask because it always leads me down a path of like, how their conversations went, how they had to pivot to make things work for both of their ideal worlds, you know, because it's something we create together as opposed to just like, yes, we want it, we're going to try it when it's time, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not trying.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, we're not.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also I think it's helpful, you know, to advocate for ourselves and be proactive in general, but it's so important here too, because even if you have the most lovely doctor in the world,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very possible that they could be thinking of you, like, is this couple, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we'll do three or four IUIs.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it doesn't work, we'll do IVF, and that's how we're gonna go.
[SPEAKER_01]: But maybe that doesn't make sense because you're paying for a sperm, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the end, doing five or six IUIs before you do IVF, maybe it's not sensible.
[SPEAKER_01]: because this firm is not free for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we all have to think about our own circumstances and not just hand over all the responsibility to the physician because we have to advocate for ourselves and our own families and our own situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Truly, 100% couldn't have said it better, Lisa, couldn't have said it better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Lisa, like with all the intentionality that Ligipata Qual folks bring to clear family building that we've just been illustrating, the burning question I have, Lisa, is do you think as a therapist that Ligipata Qual parents show up differently as parents because of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it change the parenting?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about the parenting that comes from all the questions and the fighting we have to do to make our families as a therapist?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, number one, I'll echo everything that you said Jamie about being intentional.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also think it's really important to be careful about any internalized homophobia
[SPEAKER_01]: It comes up in all sorts of insidious ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I often see same sex male couples who say, well, I need a baby nurse and I need a nanny and I need, like, to take all these courses.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I say to them, well, why is that that you need all to start, well, you know, women just have babies and they know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're thinking, well, just because a woman is can birth that she on the baby comes with instructions.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the baby does it come with instructions no matter whether you use a surrogate or use your own body.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I see sometimes it.
[SPEAKER_01]: these questions which are so beautiful and well thought through.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes can go a little too far.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're parents or parents to be really questioned themselves so much because they're so worried about doing the right thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to say to everybody out there, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Being intentional is beautiful and wonderful and so thoughtful and yes, we the research do all the things but also trust in yourself that you're a beautiful human and you're going to be a wonderful parent and everything's going to be great and I don't want you to worry that much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I hear that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought you were going to say we're like the best parents out there, but I'll take this answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lisa, just give me that too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I hear that 100% and I've actually talked to many gay males who, I like, yeah, you're not wrong in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And many gay males have said to me, they, they had to learn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I have this in me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: and internalize homophobia as a thing and we ask the whole work through it and it's a it's a constant but we're doing a good job.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last question for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, Lisa what do you want?
[SPEAKER_00]: Little bit to call our families or little bit to call our families to be or children of little bit to call our families to just the same question you asked me what do you want them to take
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did some research, as I said before, about the families that we were seeing, and many of this, same-sex male couples really, really wanted to have a child with each of their genetics.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so important to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we wrote some papers about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that came out of that was that we felt that it was so important for reproductive endocrinologists to understand that these guys are spending a ridiculous amount of money to have these babies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that if they walk into the doctor's office and say, I want twins, doesn't mean that's the right answer
[SPEAKER_01]: problematic, it can be to have twins, but not to dismiss them because it's so expensive and so difficult to go through two gestational carrier journeys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think we need to be more compassionate, certainly, about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: With the same sex female couples, we saw that they didn't really feel the same way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so at first we thought, well, maybe it's just because women are more sensitive or compassionate than then, maybe they didn't care.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my genetics.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your genetics.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't really understand why there was such a difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what it turned out to be, at least with the people that we saw, was that it really made a difference for some family's rather than others.
[SPEAKER_01]: who carried and who used their eggs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, finance being separate because of course, it's easier just to use a turkey based or if you can and use your own eggs and use your own uterus.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if money is not an object, some people really have a preference about carrying or using their eggs, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we've saw a bit of a difference with the queer female couples.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's important not to put just like we don't want to put judgment on ourselves
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important not to put any judgment on yourself about that either.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to use your genetics and that's important to you embrace it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be the way that, you know, your grandmother thinks you should do it or whoever thinks you should do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to do what's right for you and not to feel critical or self-critical about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I say this all the time as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're whatever path is right for you, is right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as your path, and you need to stand in the truth and power of that, and there's no shame, there's no shame in any path, any of us choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing it as long as you're doing it intentionally and with a lot of love.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: good on you, you keep going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had, for instance, we were talking about a certain person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had guests who have been judgmental about certain paths over others.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always say, ah, that's not, that's not allowed here.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to get creative and if the way anybody does it, is there way as long as, like, I want to say this with the caveat, as long as you're doing this with intention and love and we're nobody's going to be hurt in the end, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, you know, or so.
[SPEAKER_00]: But whatever path you choose is right path for you and there's, and there is absolutely no shame.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I agree 100% we got to support all of us in all the ways we create our families.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, except I get jealous of the guys who can afford the wet nurse and the night nurse and all the stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: knowing that you're not genetically connected to the child.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want to tell her, probably leave your 90-year-old grandmother out of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to, you don't need to get on a soapbox and tell the world if that's not who you are, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to live your life in a way that's best for you and your family, and that has to come first.
[SPEAKER_00]: But don't worry, if your child gets old enough and your grandma is still alive, that child's gonna tell her anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're doing it the right way.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're doing it the right way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, if we're doing it the right way, our kids are gonna tell everyone anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: No shame.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, this has been great Lisa.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's happy pride.
[SPEAKER_00]: Happy pride, happy pride.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Lisa, thank you for coming on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for sharing all your awesome wisdom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lisa, the therapist has dropped some more wisdom bombs again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lisa, tell everybody where they can find you.
[SPEAKER_01]: On Instagram at the Center for Family Building on YouTube, or this podcast of building your family podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: my book, Building Your Family, the complete guide to donor conception and also all over social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, the most important thing is that you take a look at our new and wonderful platform.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called the Building Your Family Community.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has everything from 30 years of my work right in there, pass for donor conception, pass for surrogacy, help for every type of family
[SPEAKER_01]: you will see the answers there that you won't find anywhere else and it's very reasonably priced so you can sign up and answer to your questions, get some support and join a welcoming community.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright folks, you heard it here, a happy pride and everybody enjoy this month, it's ours.
[SPEAKER_00]: Happy pride.
[SPEAKER_00]: A huge, huge thank you to our sponsor of this year episode, California Cryo Bank.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget to use Code ClearFam26 to get that free Level 3 subscription to their donor catalog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com, slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.