[SPEAKER_01]: Warning, this episode includes details of violence and murder that some listeners may find disturbing.
[SPEAKER_01]: June 13, 1901, Montreal, Canada.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two or three gunshots ring out in the halls of the mansion that belonged to the wealthy Red Path family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Almost immediately, members of the family and house staff were shocked to find Ada Red Path and her youngest son Clifford Red Path, both fatally wounded.
[SPEAKER_01]: Police were never called nor investigated the scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: A coroner held an inquest the day after the incident and determined this to be a murder suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: But is that really what happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would normally say something here about examining the evidence and theories to ask if the encwest was correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: And did a killer get away with murder?
[SPEAKER_01]: However, without a proper investigation, all the evidence is conjecture.
[SPEAKER_01]: Based on the word of people, we may not be able to trust, but as one of the most bizarre murder mysteries I've ever come across, it's worth taking a look.
[SPEAKER_01]: This case is shrouded in secrecy, which only fuels the mystery.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a study of strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the show, I'm Michael May, and today we are discussing a Canadian mystery, a real Canadian mystery.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have as a guest my second favorite Canadian of all time, Jesse Ikeman, hey Jesse, Michael May, so good to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for coming on.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not even curious who my first favorite Canadian is?
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was gonna say Margo your wife is my favorite Canadian.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, she'll be very happy to hear that thing Yes, but now I don't know if I should be disappointed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I now now I want to be your first favorite Canadian I mean, I honestly know that I think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're my third favorite because Michael J Fox again I have Michael J Fox up there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe who else is Canadian Brian Reynolds?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're out.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all top you Jesse now
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for being on Jesse and yeah, I wanted a Canadian on this because we're dealing with with this murder mystery that takes place in Canada in 1901 before I get into that though.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are a film producer and you've been sort of informally called the VP of Christmas at vortex media.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell us about what you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I run a studio here, a boutique studio here in Canada.
[SPEAKER_00]: We distribute and produce films in various different genres.
[SPEAKER_00]: For your audience, we actually did a film called Anything For Jackson, which was a horror currently on shutter.
[SPEAKER_00]: So perhaps your audience might check for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we also do Christmas movies and romances in feature films.
[SPEAKER_00]: We did a film called The End of Sex, which is in the Toronto National Film Festival this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really fun movie with Emily Hampshire.
[SPEAKER_00]: People might know her from shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shit's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big job, but this is more fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, I'm excited about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's absolutely lying, but I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Jessie and I go way back and yeah, it's a delight to have you on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're listening to the show, please make sure to subscribe, rate and review, follow us on Instagram at a study of strange and in the coming weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: We actually have a couple of big episodes coming up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So next week is an off week because I have a lot of research to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be going into the Connecticut Witch Trials and also some episodes on the history of zombies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, so I'm very excited about those and make sure to subscribe and follow.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, Jesse, we're going to delve into this truly mysterious case, a real murder mystery called the Red Path Mansion murders.
[SPEAKER_01]: This took place on the evening of June 13, 1901 in Montreal in Canada.
[SPEAKER_01]: And two people were shot and killed in bizarre, like truly bizarre circumstances.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were Ada Red Path.
[SPEAKER_01]: who was a 59-year-old widow, and her youngest son, who was in his mid-20s, Jocelyn Clifford, Red Path, who went by Clifford Clifford.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were both found in Ada's bedroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two guns were found with them, and the investigation that followed, was it, basically there was no investigation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The police were never called to the scene, and it was quickly deemed a murder suicide by a local
[SPEAKER_00]: I've not heard of this, but my mind is racing, I'm trying to figure it out already.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good luck, good luck, because we're going to need like a real Sherlock Holmes to do it, because there is so few details.
[SPEAKER_01]: It honestly was very frustrating to research, because I was like, oh, this one will be a quick little episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be super easy to research, but there's so few details that it gets really frustrating, but it is an incredible story, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you heard of Red Past Sugar?
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, past red paths sugar all the time is a huge red path sugar mill actually on the way to work nice so that is the same family so this the red path family they are It's a huge family of sort of industrialist and they were one of the wealthiest families at the time in the early 1900s
[SPEAKER_01]: and they started the first sugar mill in Canada, Red Pass Sugar, which is still going.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and this also takes place in Montreal, which if I remember, click correctly, you were born in Montreal, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Born and raised, I lived there for, uh, now a little less than half of my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at 20 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: see I thought you moved to Toronto as a kid that's really interested you were born and raised in Montreal that's amazing yeah and what's the famous smoke meet restaurant that you took me to one time what is there are sports is sports yes yes yes a Montreal staple that was fantastic
[SPEAKER_01]: So this story shares a lot of similarities with the graystone mansion murder suicide that I did a handful of episodes ago for listeners that have tuned into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was also a very wealthy family strange circumstances of a murder quickly kind of a quick conclusion by the police and as much as I was telling you that there are not many details in this case Jesse so it's hard to figure out.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's still as a question that I think we can.
[SPEAKER_01]: think about, which is like how privilege and wealth affects these police investigations, and because we don't know what really happened that night, it really could have been a murder suicide, like they all say, but because of the wealth and privilege associated with this family, we just don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everything was kind of hidden and not shown to the public, which leads to a lot of conjecture and a lot of mystery.
[SPEAKER_01]: A quick clarification before I dive in,
[SPEAKER_01]: Normally when you read about this case, people say it happened on June 14th, that is not corrected happen on the night of the 13th.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just wasn't known publicly until the 14th.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where that mistake happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, there's a lot of red path mansions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was really hard to actually research, which mansions this took place and the mansion in question was built in 1870.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of mistakes are made claiming that this was part of a different red path mansion and Montreal that actually was torn down in 2014.
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets a little confusing, because there's a lot of red paths.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all have a lot of money, and there's a lot of red path mansions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to go into some background, Jesse, just so we can build up who the people are, who the players are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because maybe we'll do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe someone in there did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, there are some websites that set this up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a game of clue.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, here's the potential suspects.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the potential motives.
[SPEAKER_01]: To start, this guy is not a suspect because he passed away before this happened, but the patriarch of the family, John Redpath, he was a Scottish immigrant into Canada in 1816.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was English-speaking, because he settled in Montreal, which Montreal is predominantly French-speaking, correct?
[SPEAKER_00]: predominantly, but I don't like to get into that argument because, you know, I think it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, definitely an argument.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, I'm interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was English speaking and settled in Montreal.
[SPEAKER_01]: He started working in construction, and you're going to have to help me with my pronunciation, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: He constructed the Lachine chant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Lachine?
[SPEAKER_01]: Lachine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lachine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, he was one of the, I guess, contractors that helped build that canal and some other major commercial buildings and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is not, you know, it's not the Panama Canal, but still a canal is a huge, and that's like that's a big feat that cuts right through the island of Montreal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this sort of the southern end if I'm thinking about a map correctly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can imagine somebody that gets the deal to build a canal is going to have political connections.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to have connections with financial institutions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he's building himself up to be quite an industrialist.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in 1818, he married Janet McFeed.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had seven kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: McFeed later died of cholera.
[SPEAKER_01]: He remarried and had...
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 more kids with his next wife, Jane Drummond.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the 1800s.
[SPEAKER_01]: People had a million kids back then, and there are a lot of red paths because of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's just interesting to think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: By 1836, he was
[SPEAKER_01]: just one of the wealthiest people in Canada and he purchased 235 acres of land near the slopes of Mount Royale in Montreal and he built a home and then he divided up that land and started selling it off and made a lot of money and from that money it said he took the proceeds from those land sales to actually start Red Pass Sugar in 1854.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is still running strong and this became it became like a family business because he got his kids in he had a brother and law They're all working for the sugar mill and and all very wealthy Which I'm gonna say 20 more times in this episode now his son John James
[SPEAKER_01]: married Ada, one of our victims in our tale in 1867.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had five kids, Amy Peter Reginald, Harold, and Jocelyn Clifford or Clifford as he goes by.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to primarily talk about Peter and Clifford today, because the other brothers weren't in town when the murder suicide happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amy
[SPEAKER_01]: lived at home, so did Clifford, so they lived with their mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: John James, their father had passed away in the years leading up to it, so he wasn't around anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: but Amy and Clifford lived at home and Peter, the other son, would travel around a lot for health reasons, which I will get into in a moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So question so far, I've thrown a lot of information just to get the background out, but it's so it may be hard to follow Jesse, how you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Questions?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm doing okay, there's 17 kids flown out there and we got Amy and we got Clifford and we got Peter and these are the ones we need to think.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the ones we need to focus on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the 17 kids was actually their the the previous that was their grandfathers kids, but they're five kids in this immediate family and it is confusing because there's they're both John there's two johns that are dead, so but yeah, a lot of red paths and focus on Amy Peter and Cliff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Ada, the mother herself, was from an affluent family, as well, her father had been mayor of Montreal, and she famously had kind of like a pre-nup, and I don't know if they called it a pre-nup back then, but when she got married to John James Redpath, she retained
[SPEAKER_01]: money and everything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of I was reading her will and then also Amy her daughter's will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amy was in a similar situation where when she got married, she retained her fortune as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had access to their wills.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find their wills.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like where you find somebody's will from the 19 out of the 1800s.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a secret.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't keep it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's honestly just a lot of searching online.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a relit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is kind of a famous case.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I wouldn't have been surprised if you had heard of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are sites that actually have done the research and posted out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll be links in my show notes to stuff like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not all of it is complete, but you can find bits and pieces of these things, which are really fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't find any books on this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did find a book about the history of Red Pass Sugar, and they skip over the murder suicide, rightly so, because it kind of feels a bit like a fluff piece about the family and the company.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I'll link to that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found that with the LA library, the e-books on there, but yeah, it was really interesting how they skip over this murder, which is a topic that we will also talk about and how no one seems to talk about this case until 100 years later.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the neighborhood this takes place on, I'm really curious if you know this one, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the square mile, does that ring a bell?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are the golden square mile?
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also read it called.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would know it probably better by street or,
[SPEAKER_00]: no, I don't know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's near Mount Royale.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's where that the land that John Redpatt the senior, the grandfather had bought.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think McGill University is near there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, yes, the University is actually the top of Mount Royale.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that area that whole area, I believe, is called the Square Mile, or the Golden Square Mile.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they called it that at the time, but it was like the Ritzy neighborhood and the late 1800s and early 1900s, and as you know, Jesse, I grew up in sort of a country club community for a period of my life, and it makes me think of that because it sounds very incestuous, these like wealthy families all living in this neighborhood all close together where they're all in business with each other, the daughters are marrying the sons,
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all connected socially and blooded marriage now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can only imagine the gossip after something like a murder potentially takes place, like it had to be completely insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: What the people talked about, and if anybody has watched the guilty age on HBO, the guy that made Downton Abbey makes that show,
[SPEAKER_01]: The way your image to your neighbors and your social circles is like the most important thing in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that leads to some of my theories about what happened in this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because yes, it was all about image, all about image, which may have something to do why this was quickly swept under the rug.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's most of the background.
[SPEAKER_01]: The one sort of last bit of background I'll share is health because health plays a major prominent role in this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clifford, the son who was found dead, supposedly suffered from epilepsy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And today, epilepsy is a, a neurological disorder, but historically, especially the time of this murder,
[SPEAKER_01]: People associated it with insanity.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, oh, if you're epileptic, you're going to be a violent criminal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's just the way you're going to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're completely nuts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, so we think about that very differently today.
[SPEAKER_01]: and Ada, his mother, who was also the other victim, she suffered from tons of health problems, most of which we don't really know for certain what they were, but like there's journal entries from her daughter Amy, there's newspaper reports which are predominantly like gossip,
[SPEAKER_01]: but like she had everything from ulceration of the eyes, garage of the jaw, painful joints, melancholya, arthritis, like she had lots of health issues, and she would spend time away from the family and upstate New York and various sanitariums.
[SPEAKER_01]: And melancholya is interesting because back then, like it's kind of associated with the four humors that medieval medical practice of like
[SPEAKER_01]: This woman's got melancholia.
[SPEAKER_01]: She must be completely insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: We did put her in bed rest for the next two years or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's yeah melancholia is very old school.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I don't trust doctors back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she primarily stuck to her bedroom in the last few years of her life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she didn't venture out very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't socialize very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was kind of just underbed rest.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was only in her fifth mom, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So mom, and she died when she was 59.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in her 50s, which is still just young to think about being just stuck in your bedroom because of health reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: the other son that we will talk about Peter.
[SPEAKER_01]: He eventually succumbed to tuberculosis just a year after all this, so he was probably suffering from tuberculosis throughout this period of time, and he actually would spend time
[SPEAKER_01]: outside of of Montreal because the recommendation, the treatment for tuberculosis at the time was air.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they'd send you to places like New Hampshire and Vermont and Colorado and some, I don't know, nice places in Europe to try to get good air to treat tuberculosis.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he wasn't, that's one of the reasons why Peter did not live at home because he was spending time in various places trying to treat his own ailments.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, a lot of health problems in this family and
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Amy, because we're going to talk about Amy, the sister.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I mentioned earlier, she lived at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: She took care of the mother of Ada, primarily.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was reading about kind of the social expectations for a woman who's unmarried because she is an adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she was in her 30s at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the expectation was to take care of your sick relatives before you can get married.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she was at home living as a spin-trace, I believe, as with a Goddard, and she would take care of her sick mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever she wasn't home, Clifford, the youngest son who was also living at home would help take care of the mother too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, Amy Clifford and Ada, the mother, were all
[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were all close and got along and trusted each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was that's that's a lot of background Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the tragedy here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is the night of June 13th or sort of the evening afternoon sometime around 5 or 6 p.m.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the story goes that Peter was back home in Montreal staying at the Red Path Mansion, his family's home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Clifford graduated law school a handful of years before this happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: He went to McGill, all the red pass are all big McGill.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all donate money and there's buildings and stuff named after them on McGill University.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Cliff had gone to law school at McGill, and he was clerking for a local law firm.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he returns home in the evening around five or six, he sees Peter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter sees Clifford go upstairs or to the mother's bedroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it was upstairs or downstairs to be honest, and quickly after Peter hears two gunshots.
[SPEAKER_01]: He runs into Peter runs into his mother's bedroom and he finds his brother Clifford on the floor dead, a gun nearby, and his mother also nearby
[SPEAKER_01]: What's interesting about this is there's kind of two versions of the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other version is similar thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter sees Cliff come home, go to the mother's bedroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's gunshots.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you hear two gunshots, sometimes you read three, depending on the source you're reading about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter and servants, because there were three, live-in servants, run to the bedroom, and they all see the scene of Clifford on the ground dead
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sorry, it also two guns, the servant sees two guns on the floor, in the two guns thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something about the two guns thing, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just think about that because it's driving me nuts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that to me is the weirdest part of the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like, you know, did they kill each other?
[SPEAKER_00]: That just seems weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe it.
[SPEAKER_00]: already.
[SPEAKER_00]: I doubt that I doubt the variety of nobody you haven't said that's what happened yet, but that's the first thing that certainly you think about, right, and double suicide, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a really.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah, it's it's super bizarre.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: There are letters between the two brothers, Peter and Clifford.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just again, to clarify, because there's a lot of names and a lot of background I gave.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter is the older son who doesn't live at home, but was in town at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter, as the oldest son, did not work because of his health reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was like a big thing in the family, like he had uncles and people that all kind of looked down on him because he didn't work, but as an oldest son, he's supposed to be in charge of the families.
[SPEAKER_01]: wealth and finances.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of his responsibility as the eldest son.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of the letters that we actually have letters between Peter and Clifford, since Clifford's living at home, and they do talk and they sound very friendly.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't sound like they dislike each other, but they are predominantly just talking about business when they communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because Peter's away from the family, Cliff like Relays information to him, like, oh, we had a board meeting
[SPEAKER_01]: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had to pay the the bank our loan amount or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's there's talk back and forth about money, very not intimate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess not intimate is a good way to say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's primarily business.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, actually let me let me read one of those letters.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's probably a good idea for a podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jesse, look at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's think it on my feet, trying to produce this content.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm going to read here a letter from Clifford to his brother Peter, just to give you a sense of their relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: At a recent general meeting, the directors were authorized to increase the capital stock to $300,000.
[SPEAKER_01]: The issue of this new stock is nothing more than a means of wiping out the present bond issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: The personal guarantee of the present debt to the bank was not signed by all shareholders in order to secure the bank, where to put those shareholders who may be so unfortunate as to be called upon to pay on their guarantee in a position superior to the other shareholders.
[SPEAKER_01]: It will be necessary to have some first mortgage bonds.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is proposed to form a new company to run a steamer down the North Coast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Drummond is getting outsiders interest in the scheme.
[SPEAKER_01]: This morning, he has asked me if I had any intention of joining this company.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course I said it is not intended to do so, and he then wanted to know if we would be willing to sell our interest in the Labrador company.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please let me hear your views about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enclose with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Herewith, powers of attorney to enable me to vote in your behalf or to sell out any stock in the if the occasion arises, I am your affectionate brother, J.C. Red Pass.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of these letters, and I will have links to my show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can read a lot of letters between the family members.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's primarily talking about business, but Cliff is reaching out to the older brother, who's supposed to be more in charge of this, to be like, here's the situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me know your thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are some theories, which I'll get into later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because some people suspect that Peter was jealous that Cliff,
[SPEAKER_01]: was getting all these opportunities and going to the meetings and felt like Cliff had too much charge of the family's finances.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it sounds like Clifford there was was basically saying that he wants like voting rights.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wants to basically take people's votes in the power of attorney.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which would give Clifford a lot of power, actually, in the situation, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just keep that in the back of your brain, there, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds like Peter's jealous, but okay,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my curiosity than Pete.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's where things start to get really strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: Police were never called to the scene of the crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I can't find any evidence that they ever went to the house even in the days after this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like police are just not there, not called, not investigating.
[SPEAKER_01]: I even read somewhere that the police found out about it by accident, like
[SPEAKER_01]: However, the family says that Cliff was actually still alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He could not communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when they found him, he was still breathing, so they rushed him to the nearby hospital where he died that night, so on the night of the 13th.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no record in the hospital of that happening, but that is what the family says happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does all this information, if there's no police record and there's no investigation who's documenting all this stuff, but already you've got a decent amount of information to guns, three servings, either running through the stairs, where does this even start?
[SPEAKER_00]: What does the chain of evidence of this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this doesn't, like, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: fantastic question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the chain of evidence or the documentation starts on the day of the 14th.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the day after the the murder suicide quote, murder suicide because on the 14th, the coroner comes and brings doctors who are all friendly with the family and he the coroner holds an inquest.
[SPEAKER_01]: to determine what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that inquest is accounted for.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is documented all the jurors present for the inquest are named and documented.
[SPEAKER_01]: They interview witnesses, which I'll get into in a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then from that inquest, because that has to get released, then the newspapers are all writing articles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're all predominantly getting information probably from neighbors gossiping.
[SPEAKER_01]: So none of it can be verified, but they're all getting information.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, they buried the bodies on the 15th.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that also has to be like people noticed that.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they hadn't heard about it within the last day, they're noticing that wait a second, the red path family is putting two members of the family in the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, so word spreads.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of gossip, newspapers, but because of the end-quest, that's where we actually get some sort of formal documentation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The inquest I want to talk about a bit so the coroner comes the day after like I said and he concludes very quickly that what happened was his cliff went insane because of a of a fit of epilepsy you know has a seizure doesn't know what he's doing shoots and kills his mom then he sort of snaps out of it realizes what he did feels regret kills himself that is what the coroner concludes
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting thought because he did have epilepsy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we think anyway, but it doesn't really fit a lot of our modern understanding of epilepsy, which I've had to read a lot of because I didn't understand it myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are accounts where people with seizures, they kind of, they don't know what they're doing, but when it comes to violent crime, it's such a tiny percentage of a percentage of any of that ever being an actual case that it definitely leads to some doubt in that conclusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: the jurors at the end quest of the co-owner put together from what I can tell are all neighbors and friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not it's people that may have they they're easily influenced by what the the red path family may tell them to say or think and we are actually going to
[SPEAKER_01]: Read a scene here, Jesse, this is a little recreation of what the corners and quests might be like.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you pull up that email, okay, I got it, who am I?
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's have you read, why don't you read, you're gonna read two parts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you read Peter and Dr. Roddick.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, I'll read the descriptions and the corner before we get into this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me also set this up with the corner holds this in quest at the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where the murder took place?
[SPEAKER_01]: He calls in the jury of peers of neighbors and friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: He calls up witnesses, which is not just Peter and Dr. Roddick, but other local well-known respected doctors that probably all live in this golden square mile area
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm ready, go for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, it's the afternoon of June 14, 1901 a day after the discovery of the bodies of Cliff and Heta Redpatth.
[SPEAKER_01]: A group of neighbors, making up the jury of an inquest, stand around in the foyer of the large home, and the corner, talks to the group.
[SPEAKER_01]: He soon gestures for Peter Redpatth to come stand next to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Redpatth, can you make your statement regarding the events of last evening?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sir.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please speak loud enough for the jury to hear you, and please include as many details as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: like we prepared the corner wigs at Peter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pardon me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, uh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday evening, I saw my brother that is ceased arriving home at around 6 o'clock.
[SPEAKER_00]: He seemed ill and was tired working hard to prepare for his bar exams.
[SPEAKER_00]: He went up to the room of my mother, Aida Marie Mills, age 62, and a few seconds later, I heard a shot from a firearm, followed by two others.
[SPEAKER_00]: I ran up and broke down the door, I saw my mother lying on the floor and several feet from her my brother, also lying in a pool of blood, a revolver, a foot away from him near his hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: My brother had been very nervous for some time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I please have Dr. Roddick come join me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Roddick and older gentleman with a full head of gray hair steps forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Can you please provide your statement for the proceedings?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was called upon to confirm the death.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a doctor as you all know, and I've known the Red Path family for nearly two decades.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I arrived, I found the son, Jocelyn Clifford, on the ground near his mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ada Red Path.
[SPEAKER_00]: Due to the wound on the Clifford's left temple and the wound to the back of Mrs. Red Path's head, it's obvious Clifford pulled the trigger first his mother, then himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clifford is epileptic and not responsible for his acts before during or after his attacks.
[SPEAKER_00]: As a close family doctor, I am aware of his mental afflictions and had devised him to get rest.
[SPEAKER_01]: very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're well done, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a couple of things that I want to close to for fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to point out a couple of facts.
[SPEAKER_01]: One Peter got his mother's age wrong, which is hilarious, because she was 59, not 62 or 64 or whatever he said in the Inquest.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to let everybody know, Peter's words are from the official record, Dr. Roddick's words.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually didn't have his specific, I know what he talked about, but I didn't have his specific language, so I wrote the Dr. Roddick part and other doctors that were there corroborated all these facts.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all came and gave short testimonies like these other guys and said there were two revolvers.
[SPEAKER_01]: They said there's a gunshot to Clifford's left temple.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a wound to the
[SPEAKER_01]: whose name by the way was Ed McMan, which I just loved the corner was Ed McMan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the same Ed McMan way all know, because he was he's an old guys, was around a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the corner Ed McMan confirmed two guns and he actually had them in his possession according to the end quest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he found one of the guns was missing one bullet, so one empty chamber, the other gun had two empty chambers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And apparently, so some newspaper articles say that Clifford was shot twice, some newspaper articles say the mother was shot twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust any of the newspaper accounts.
[SPEAKER_01]: The inquest doesn't say anybody was shot twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is one of those details that's like missing that we don't know for sure from this case that just makes it even more baffling because there's two guns, three rounds have been fired.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think only two wounds according to the end quest.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what if somebody missed?
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to know where that bullet was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like did they find a, you know, a bullet shell, a third bullet shells?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they find a hole in a wall somewhere?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we know which gun?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's fired.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know if it was the gun that was close to Clifford or closer
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't even know if they were one was close to the other that could have been right next to each other We have no idea because no one took crime scene photos no one mentioned exactly where they were.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just said near Clifford They didn't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it gets this is where it gets frustrating Like I was talking about it was really frustrating to investigate this Also something I'd never thought about until we were reading the scene Peter says he had to kick in the door Which if that's true?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an interesting thing because that means there may have been some pre-meditated planning by Clifford to actually cause harm to his mother or himself, because he locked the door behind up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Peter, of course, you're saying that that came directly, that's a direct quote.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a direct quote, yes indeed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, I ran up and broke down the door in that quote.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then the rest of the end quest some of the these servants were interviewed and they I have their direct testimony as well And they said they went in with Peter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think any of them said they had to break down the door, though That doesn't mean they didn't have to break down the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means they were like, oh, I went up and you know, we found the bodies and they also confirmed two guns So I want to read the verdict of the end quest
[SPEAKER_01]: We, the undersigned jurors, have heard the evidence declare that Aida Marie Mills died at Montreal on the 13th day of June, 1900 and won from a gunshot wound apparently inflicted by Clifford, Clifford, Jocelyn Redpath, while unconscious of what he was doing and temporarily insane, owing to an epileptic attack from which he was suffering at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, our understanding of epilepsy today is different than what they did back then,
[SPEAKER_01]: So it seems like an easy out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think looking at it from like a modern medical eye, it seems like they're just blaming him very quickly for this terrible, terrible situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually, I wanna read here another thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is from a paper that I found it was published by a handful of academics from Harvard and McGill University and a few others.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what they sort of surmise, I just could never say it this well, so I wanna read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the official record, but it is far from the whole story.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Red Path Mystery is defined by secrets and contradictions, barely legible today in a trail of material and textual clues.
[SPEAKER_01]: If the coroner's inquest solved the mystery, why are there no suicides on record in the city of Montreal for June 1901?
[SPEAKER_01]: Wires are no mention in family documents of Clifford's epilepsy, before the shootings, especially an Amy Red Pass extensive diaries, is Peter's testimony trustworthy, and where was Amy at the time of the shootings?
[SPEAKER_01]: Still, the coroner's report is the only official record of the double shooting both bodies were buried within 48 hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, the other point there is Amy, who lived at home and took care of her mother, there's no mention of her in anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: She lived at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where was she?
[SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't seemed to be at the end quest.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't seem to be there when all this happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is one of the other baffling pieces of information with this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Seeing never investigating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rizami, Amy, so no record of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just in case you're thinking, somebody wanted to off the mother and, you know, maybe Clifford tried to or Peter caught Clifford trying to hurt the mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there's a financial gain, right, to inherit money from the mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the will, Ada left her fortune split it equally with all her kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just think not that that prohibits somebody from doing something terrible to inherit money, but you would think if somebody was doing it, at least my initial thought is they want control over the whole fortune, not just in equal peace of what all the kids get.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, Amy lived in the house until she died.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Amy actually inherited the property.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not Peter, because a lot of people think Peter may have done this for financial gain.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Amy actually inherited the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, Jesse, what happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: Solve it for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you're here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a Montrealer.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got this.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, here.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, I've got a couple theories so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm wondering if there's information that you're holding with holding from us, though, Michael, never do something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, so maybe I am.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I need a little bit more information.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, I do have some theories.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the mom kills Clifford, drops a gun there to make it look like it's that there's like a you know set up a situation where it's like a double suicide and then she kills herself I'm not sure about the financial gain around that necessarily but I have a feeling it has to do with something about family power.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the dynamics and the family and obviously I don't know the moms psychology because we haven't really gotten into that but three number one is the mom did it
[SPEAKER_00]: Theory number two, since we've got two bullets discharged, because that doesn't really answer the two bullet discharge thing unless mom misses the first time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know what you could see, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, maybe one, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could see that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There'd have to be a reason for this, but that's kind of out there, theory, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's mom, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a kid, so I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But still, that's theory number one.
[SPEAKER_00]: theory number two is the third man theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's somebody else, somebody else went in there, and he didn't, he missed the first time.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets maybe Clifford, maybe Mrs. Ada, or the verse of the vice versa, and then eventually gets the second person.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's three bullets discharge,
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, just so that, you know, they don't know what happened or why.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, but I'm going for the single shooter theory on this one that's not one of those two.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interestingly, even Peter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because Peter's the one who ran upstairs and kicked up in the door, he's given his own account.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nobody else there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Peter's in the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Clifford's upstairs with the mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter fabricates this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter goes up off, you know, the brother because the whole financial thing that we talked about before,
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe mom walks in, sees him shooting, and then oh shit, in like, you know, his panics, shoots his mum by accident, you know, and gets the first shot off, but, but, you know, the two shot theory there again, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, John kind of goes misses or something, but he pretty panics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a Peter, so that's the Peter shot in both theory.
[SPEAKER_01]: nice those by two theories no i those are fantastic and what i love about this is those are kind of the predominant theories and that's so interesting because you didn't know this case before today and that i think that's an important thing to note when somebody's new to the case and they bring up the theories that kind of already existed gives them a little more validity that they may you know something like that may have happened there is uh the only
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a ton of notes and kind of accidentally skipped it, but it is a little bit about the headspace, the mental makeup of Clifford, which again, because details are scarce, this family also after this happened, they were tight-liped, they did not talk to newspapers, they didn't put this information in diaries, there is a family member that wrote a play, like a fake version of what happened that night, but she based it on other popular stories, like it wasn't,
[SPEAKER_01]: But outside of that, the family never talked about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even that red past sugar book that I told you I found in the library that did the whole history of the company skips over this, like just completely skips over it because the red past family wants to keep it quiet.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, the mental makeup of Clifford.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, he was a clerk at a law firm.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had graduated from law school.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had actually just signed up very I think two days before the murder suicide happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: To take the barricade exam.
[SPEAKER_01]: and he was studying for and had been studying it for it for some time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there are people that theorize, maybe the murder suicide is a real thing because the amount of stress and pressure that he was feeling with the bar exam, with work, and also taking care of his mother from time to time could have
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, he felt like it was too much and he was overcome with something and he had health problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't necessarily buy into that because I know plenty of people that have been stressed out because of the bar exam and have kids and jobs and everything at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: it doesn't automatically mean you're going to go and off somebody.
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, it's a bit of a leap, especially when there's no other records to say that he was suffering from depression or crazy stress outside of Peter at the end quest being like, oh, he's had a rough go of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He went upstairs, gunshot.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, it's, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just an important detail to know, though, that he, he was getting ready to take the bar exam.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this, this predominant theory is Jesse,
[SPEAKER_01]: is the mother did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was suffering from, again, quote, unquote, melancholia had a lot of health problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she didn't know what she was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she was a totally gay dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a totally gay dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they're all guesses, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all guesses because it's a little details, but the mom could have started it, Clifford retaliates or tries to protect himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything does haywire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peter did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, those are those are the main things Peter two guys think that's throw two guns They too gun thanks throws it all out of whack if it was one gun I might just be like look simple answers usually true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably a murder suicide We don't know what they were dealing with we don't know the truth about their relationship Maybe Clifford really did go in and kill his mom and then turn the gun on himself But the two guns said there was who said that let's rewind for said who said there was two guns?
[SPEAKER_00]: What, where's that evidence?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the end quest.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's one of the servants, says it, as well as I think every doctor mentions two guts and the more smart multiple people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Multiple people.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, because you are questioning it and because details are scarce,
[SPEAKER_01]: All those, none of the doctors were there that night, even Dr. Rodik, who claimed that he went to investigate the bodies, he didn't show up till the 14th, when apparently Cliff had already gone to the hospital, which we also don't have any kind of.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if anybody really saw the two guns except for Peter potentially and the servants, but they all say two guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, yeah,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, let me read some of the newspaper accounts because the newspapers came up with all their own theories.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first one I'll read here is from the Calgary Harald, and this is on the 14th, I think it was published before the end quest happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: The son of Mrs. Rand Redpath died at the hospital shortly after midnight.
[SPEAKER_01]: The family refused any information, and even the police only heard of the matter by accident.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Redpath was afflicted with nervous trouble, and it has surmised her mind had become affected and she attempted to take her life.
[SPEAKER_01]: The sun probably losing his life in an attempt to save her.
[SPEAKER_01]: The son was a bright fellow of 24, had just graduated at McGill deceased, was the widow of John Redpath founder of the Big Sugar business.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that newspaper account is thinking the mother may have been committing suicide and cliff tried to stop her.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, two guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they just all carrying everybody in the family?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't understand you two guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another paper writes, surprised by the sound of shots the family immediately ran into the room and found the mother dying and the brother fatally wounded.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Red Path was taken by ambulance to Victoria Hospital as quickly as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: On arriving at the hospital he was cared for by Dr. Bell and the absence of Dr. Roddick, the family doctor.
[SPEAKER_01]: But notwithstanding all of the resources of science, the young man did not regain consciousness, so it was impossible to obtain an explanation.
[SPEAKER_01]: He died at around 11.30.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that one I wrote down because that was one that says he went to the hospital, which we have no record of that actually happening from the hospital itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this last one I'll read, this was published in Halifax.
[SPEAKER_01]: Investigation by the coroner's jury today put a new light on the Red Path tragedy of yesterday.
[SPEAKER_01]: The evidence showed that Mrs. Red Path had been shot twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is one that says shot twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once in the back of the head in the second time of the right shoulder, while the bullet had entered young Red Path's head to the right of the left
[SPEAKER_01]: The jury brought in a verdict that the young man had killed his mother in a fit of temporary insanity, brought on by an epileptic, epileptic, there we go, that's the word fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then taken his own life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so you see some some various accounts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And all the newspapers, they're not getting this from the Red Path family.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not getting this from the police, because the police were never called.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're getting this from gossip and potentially the people that were in the jury.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, theories, theories are everywhere, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thieries are absolutely everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the epileptic thing, just, it's just, it's a bit of a faux paw to say somebody went insane and killed somebody because they were epileptic.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is just not like a stretch for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Back then, that was considered kind of the normal thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in the 19th century, especially people thought people that suffered from seizures were born criminals.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a quote I read somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: so yeah modern studies do do contradict that that theory though and if anybody knows any bit more about violent crime with people that suffer from that I would love to hear more I did a lot of reading on it I won't go into all of it now because it's it's just over my head but if anybody out there has stats on that please email me at a study of strange at gmail.com
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, there is, there's some other theories to think about Jesse that other people present.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll just run through some of those real quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are rumors that Cliff was homosexual.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have that societal pressure, not just because of their wealth, but also just the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that could have contributed to a situation where he probably wanted to come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to his mom, who disapproved and he commits suicide and she tries to stop him and gets shot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in between all that,
[SPEAKER_01]: There is that theory that I mentioned in paper where the mother tries to kill herself because she is suffering for so many health ailments Cliff tries to stop her the gun accidentally goes off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Cliff gets shot and the mother still commits suicide something like that There are people that suspect that Amy was involved because she is the one that is not brought up in any of this and she's also was wondering that actually After you you noted that I was thinking myself
[SPEAKER_00]: and they just kept it quiet.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting thing to think about because Amy is who a lot of people think kind of kept this all quiet.
[SPEAKER_01]: People think that she's the one with the logo connections that was able to get either the hospital, like if Cliff went to the hospital, she didn't want to record of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she told him not to keep a record.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's also the one that sort of had the family keep quiet about the whole thing so that no one was talking to the papers and spreading rumors and she also basically organized the whole burial at the cemetery just a day after the inquest and got that going to sort of put pressure on and haven't moved very quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Amy is interesting and she's also the one that we have a lot of details about family life because she kept diary.
[SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of her diaries are I actually think they're kept at McGill University.
[SPEAKER_01]: So her diaries are still there.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've published a lot of her posts both in the years leading up to this and after it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So but she never says anything bad about her mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: She never says anything bad about her brothers.
[SPEAKER_01]: She never has any sort of ill will towards her family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, so
[SPEAKER_01]: says the diaries, but she seems to be a very caring person.
[SPEAKER_01]: She even talks about like crying, seeing her brother off to the train station when he leaves town, like she seems very connected to the family.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just it seems to be a leap for me, but it is interesting that she's the one that's not in any of the documentation around the river, which he lived at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, the theory that Peter may have been up to something, some people suspect that Cliff actually went to Ada's room to tell her a secret about Peter, so maybe there was something Peter was doing that was a big no-no and the mother would have disapproved and he ran in and often both, you know, in a fit to keep his secret quiet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't I feel like that's such a jump however Peter was there two guns two guns again two guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just it's so weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so weird So yeah, those are those are kind of the main theories around it Amy Peter Cliff the mother
[SPEAKER_01]: There doesn't seem to be a theory built around some unknown gunman that we don't know like a break-in or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: There seems to be no evidence for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, we don't know the evidence, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know the evidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ugh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a bit frustrating, but it's it's fun to think.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get to the end of this podcast and not figure it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't get to know the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, you're going to write a bad review on Apple podcast about this, aren't you?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we are going to know the answer because there's literally no way to figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one that it just, it was such a strange mystery.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to spend time on it and see if I could get a different perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think I can because there's so much missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, unless we can actually time travel.
[SPEAKER_01]: or hire a real Sherlock Holmes who can just like listen to information from a room and solve a crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's so it's impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll simply put it that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is impossible to solve.
[SPEAKER_01]: But two guns, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't give up on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going with Peter did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I, you know what, that's my theory, after all of this talk, I'm going with Peter did it, and it was covered up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He did it, but Peter did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's what's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote down for myself and my outline here that I think cliff did it, that there is some truth to the murder suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, after doing this with you today, I actually disagree after going through all this a second time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually am kind of leaning towards Peter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think something was going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't work.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had his own health issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was jealous of some kind of, you know, all the breaking down the door thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what made that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the piece because it feels like that's the kind of thing you make up when you're making up a story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I had a bust in and get the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the mom that didn't get like the mom that didn't kill Cliff and then I don't think went up.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Clifford doesn't go up there and says, oh, wait a second, Peter, we'll see you down.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be back in seconds and he goes upstairs, pop, pop, and then he's dead, that doesn't make any sense either.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, and I think if it was a murder suicide from Cliff.
[SPEAKER_01]: If Cliff went in, he was either the fit of a seizure, or whatever else, whatever mental reason for him wanting to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: If that was true, I don't understand two guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: The two guns think throws that out of whack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also if the mother was committing suicide and he tried to stop her why is he whipping out a gun the first is he does he carry guns that doesn't seem likely and why would he have pull out another like yes, so that doesn't fit either so I think Peter had something to do with this
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Peter his own influence, he can influence how the servants see the scene, he can influence what they say, he can influence what the doctors say.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's something here to Peter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that brings me to kind of our last point, Jesse, which is what can we learn from this by studying this case?
[SPEAKER_01]: And look, I don't know for certain, but I do have to say there is something to consider with class and wealth and privilege, especially back then in a situation like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can keep the reporters quiet, you can influence the determination of the corner, you can influence
[SPEAKER_01]: how close the the police will investigate if this if this wasn't a wealthy family what would the police have done if they didn't find out about it for two days I think they would have still come in and bust the door down and drawn sketches if they couldn't take pictures and really look at it but because it's the red paths I think they were just like well the coroner says it was a murder suicide so let's move on let's go to Tim Horton said get a donut coffee
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Canada, come on, give us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't seem to be existed back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, they definitely did not exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got on their moose and rode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just trying to think of stereotypical Canadian things.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got on their moose and rode to the crime scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: You all have pet moose, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a moose.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a single pet moose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice, nice, good for you, good for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so in also I think it says something the book that I've mentioned that I found about the history of the red paths and the red past sugar company How it just skips over this entirely because I think they would have had influence over someone writing a book about the family too And I think that goes into some of it as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, Jesse, what are your thoughts?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your final thoughts?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you didn't get to solve the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it definitely feels like a cover up of sorts.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no question.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I I I I I agree You're theory around wealth and privileges.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: feels very well-founded and well-bought through and researched.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, obviously, we're not going to solve it here today, but I think we've gotten, we've gotten kind of far in the case, I feel like I can leave with at least a little bit of satisfaction that I think I know what might have happened and that maybe that's good enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it has to be, and I'm sorry, because I thought, yeah, I just, it has to be, but that's kind of what drew me to this case is the craziness of the lack of details and how frustrating it was to research.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think I feel like you, I feel like we understand it a little bit better, and a little bit better than most, because there are so many contradictions to the details out there, so I feel like I understand it a little bit better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I feel like you did your research.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there was a lot to research this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what you're bringing forth is clearly, I mean, they are all the archives and stuff that you would have had to read just to present, the information as it's presented.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel good about my theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel good about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on that note, listeners, if I got anything wrong and you know more information than me, I am always okay with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to hear about it because we can do a follow-up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So email me at a study of strange at gmail.com and let me know what I missed or got wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's a lot of other details in this case that I had to skim over for time sake, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I tried to focus on what I thought was the most important, but there are other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is other information about the family and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but there you have it.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, Jesse, thanks again for joining me and do you want to plug anything you want to share share with people where they can find you find movies find some of the the stuff that you're doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_00]: This has been super fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on TikTok at my name, Jesse.
[SPEAKER_00]: I come in and I like putting a content about film.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if anybody's interested in in film, you can find me there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you can find four text media's movies a lot of places like lifetime in hallmark and You guys got a lot of movies
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool, well, thank you so much, Jesse, and I will talk to you soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that'll do it for the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to make one quick clarification here before I wrap up.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I mentioned that Clifford had signed up to take the bar exam, some theories present then as a reason why Clifford would not have committed suicide because he was putting so much effort and thought and time and money into signing up for the bar exam, let's just another side of the coin that we didn't get to talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to mention it because it is a
[SPEAKER_01]: a very good point and something to think about in this truly bizarre case that I don't think we're ever going to fully solve.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you all for listening.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And as usual, please email me, thoughts, ideas, suggestions, things I got wrong, things I got right.
[SPEAKER_01]: All sorts of fun stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Feel free to reach out.
[SPEAKER_01]: A study of strange, all-one word at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are going to have a down week, the week after this episode publishes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am in the throes of a lot of research on some really fun episodes, including the history of zombies and the Connecticut Witch Trials, which I am just honestly, I'm very excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been talking too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again and good night.