[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast.
[SPEAKER_02]: The show that explores the background of Tolkien's amazing world, from the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the Lord of the Rings lorecast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have with me this week, our patrons.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is our second official VIP patron chat.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's growing.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have three VIP members with me this week.
[SPEAKER_02]: In order to discuss, if we could ask talking one question,
[SPEAKER_02]: If we could, if we could send it back in time, or if we could, I don't know, bring them back from the dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: That sounds kind of gross and weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if somehow we were able to get a question to him, and you could answer our question, what would we ask?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know so many of us have so many questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes the standard stuff that comes up all the time, like, Who is Tom Bombadil?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe there's something that you've been wondering that doesn't get asked very often, but it's still a really interesting question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Asle, how's it going?
[SPEAKER_01]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad you're able to make it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have Daniel Knight.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've been joining us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Al Darian was right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have a nice day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I'll Darian, you, in the pre-show we were talking, and you said you had something I think is very interesting that you would ask Tolkien, why don't you go ahead and explain to everybody what your question is, why you're asking the question, and then we'll kind of speculate about maybe what he might answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what were you thinking?
[SPEAKER_03]: So my kind of initial thought only brought up the topic, and I think I've asked it before, in the comments, was kind of like if he had any intention behind breaking up his, you know, world and into different, like there were different ages the way he does the story.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if that was somehow, you know, kind of a reflection of like the evolution, you know, of humanity in a sense of the our technological evolution as it were.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because you have kind of the before, you have before time even existed at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you have the making of the world and you have the before there were ages part, which is who knows how many hundreds of thousands or millions of years of the crafting of the earth and the initial conflicts with Melcourt and all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you have the first age, the second age, the third age.
[SPEAKER_02]: A fourth age,
[SPEAKER_02]: which she even started writing a story about and then gave up on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you guys are familiar with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't go very far.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then he also speculated in some things that this was like eventually his world would have evolved into the world that we're living in now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that would have been like, hold history, that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have some speculation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there are a few different things that might answer that question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have, you said, it kind of reflects our own ages of the world, are you thinking,
[SPEAKER_02]: of the Bronze Age or the Stone Age or like the Iron Age, things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know he was obviously a big, you know, a history, you know, was a big part of his human history that is it was a big part of his influence and he was very much thinking when he was writing about like the other reflection of our own past and how he could pass that on through
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so I would assume that it did in some way have some influence, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Possibly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's it's a categorizing feature, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he was an academic and academics like to categorize thing and put put them in the little, you know, little piles.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is what happened here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what happened here and divided up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, reality is always more complex than just like, oh, well, there was like a, there's not a definitive line between, say, the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the two kind of blended together depending on the culture and where you live and all that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's some of my speculation about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a few things going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: First,
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that he even intended to get into the later ages of the world initially.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that the first age was kind of that was the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the story branched out bigger than he was expecting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And especially when he got to writing the Hobbit and then realized that the Hobbit was in fact going to be part of his greater mythology.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he had to place it in that world in a place that made sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: the third age.
[SPEAKER_02]: And had to come up with, okay, well, why is the world the way it is during the time of the Hobbit?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you have the invention of a dark lord and the downfall of that dark lord.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when he gets the fellowship of the ring, he's like, oh, well, the dark lord had a ring, because the dark lord was a massing power again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there must have been a second age where he fell at the end of the second age.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a feeling he kind of worked backwards from that when it came
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that ages of the world also have to do, like if you study religious texts, even in the Old Testament, there's a lot of language around ages, the beginning of the age, the end of the age, and that kind of language, you find it in the Gospels to, in fact, in the Gospels of Matthew, he talks a lot about how the kingdom of heaven will come to earth at the end of the age.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that kind of language, and we interpret that different than early Christians did, but early Christians would have interpreted that as this kind of cyclical pattern.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that being like the ages of the world, you have kind of the, there's always a new beginning and then an end and a new beginning and an end.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that would be the final end where heaven comes to earth.
[SPEAKER_02]: That sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have a feeling he's probably pulling from that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's open this up.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the rest of you guys think?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that there's other influences on this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I got intrigued with the biblical references, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think there's definitely a piece of that evolution of human entity in that, and the kind of the ascendancy of mankind, the kind of the story of how humans in some ways reached
[SPEAKER_00]: the pinnacle where elves would seem to have held that position in his universe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I can certainly see that piece of the evolution.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, just, yeah, like I said, I think it just reflects a lot of our own development and history.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know, I was listening just thinking of the warning of the ring and how it's
[SPEAKER_00]: in his own time where he sees that transition from kind of that idyllic pastoral world of the green shire like England into the industrial kind of wasteland that he came to know and how much he hated that and it seemed to really influence his notion of what the ring was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Almost as the human or mankind
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can still get to this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you may have destroyed the mechanism of the enemy, but like...
[SPEAKER_00]: it still has the power to destroy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And because he's seen that that's the evolutionary step, his, the humans have taken in his own day and age.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you wonder where that might have led in his fourth story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I remember I think you had mentioned that in one of the podcast about some unnamed evil that he was still toying with and what that might have actually been in the
[SPEAKER_00]: Last for power like would right going back and fight it on the old noonorian story or The rings and the mechanism of the ring and our propensity to want to kind of take that next step at the destruction of everything Maybe whether that's a positive step or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can see that at work and It was all the ring becomes like a warning of
[SPEAKER_00]: We're progressing, but what are we progressing to?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: In our own current world right now, there's a lot of, um, I don't know, nervousness about AI and how technologies developing and what that's going to do to us as human beings are society, all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's not new.
[SPEAKER_02]: And every time we've gone through a technological revolution, we have those types of dilemmas and his was post-industrialization.
[SPEAKER_02]: that's the dilemma he went through and this idea and he was very much on the side of we think this is progress but it's not and hey we would all be better off if we were just you know kind of chilled it with you know with destroying nature to make the world easier for ourselves or whatever the justification is to get to a mass wealth and power whatever is usually the actual reason
[SPEAKER_02]: from what he would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I can see that as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And going back to the question about the ages of the world, you can kind of see in our own world that oftentimes, those ages are divided by the type of technology that was prominent or most potent at the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why we call it the Bronze Age, because it was bronze technology.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the technology to craft instruments that made farming easier and warfare easier and things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it continued on.
[SPEAKER_03]: are diagnosed and they're, yeah, and they're generally marked by huge conflicts.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, not like you said, there's not a direct, you know, this is a, this day decides the new age, but generally a huge conflict, which leads to a lot of technological advancement is where those kind of are demarcations for the beginning of a new age as it works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I see that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as I say that though, I could also imagine a professor being like, it's just a writing mechanism.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, don't don't look.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I'm ready to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the other thing that popped in my head is like, it's actually very useful as like a, like you said, a writing mechanism to be able to say, well, all of this have happened in what we'll call the first stage and ends with a climax.
[SPEAKER_02]: Imagine that your story teller you're going to end up as the story of the first age with some sort of might be overthinking it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, it starts with a, hey, everything was fine until and ends with there's a big climactic moment and then the second age everything's fine until and then a big climactic moment so that does feel like something an author would do
[SPEAKER_02]: But it also, you're right, it also kind of matches history like we go through these phases.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you could say, like, you know, when did the ancient, when did the ancient world disappear?
[SPEAKER_02]: And become, I don't know, the middle ages, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll probably the fall of Rome, a big climactic moment, you know, something like that, you know, so the classical world, I guess you could call it.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a result, what do you think?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any thoughts about the dividing of the world?
[SPEAKER_02]: And does any of this stuff resonate with your perspective?
[SPEAKER_01]: There has been something I've wanted about in the past, but I don't know if I've really given it too much thought more so than just the big climactic moments that just kind of Like the world was, is something just to be remembered but change history Host significant event and it's always just interesting just to see what changes and what doesn't changes and what lessons people do and don't want to learn from it, but
[SPEAKER_01]: with all the ideas that have already been said, perhaps it is just a giant culmination of references to religion, well at the same time, toolfully author, well at the same time reference to our own history, and it's all just coming together to
[SPEAKER_01]: to form the story that we all love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times these kinds of ideas are not intentional, at least in my experience, being a creative person who's tried to do a number of different things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you don't really think about why you came up with the idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just go, oh, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you just use it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's only post, yeah, that you have to justify it and be like, oh, well, I guess I was drawing from this and I guess I was, I was doing like this sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you can also see the the effect of it on other fantasy authors, I mean, how we either fantasy authors use ages of the world or video games, you know, like in this age of the world, this thing happened and then this, you know, it's, it's, it does seem like an easy way to categorize stuff though.
[SPEAKER_02]: little pockets.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So does that help you answer your question all during?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we can't call up the professor and be like, hey, we've got a question.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no line harder, but you know, it's kind of like, it's one of those things that I always thought about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, I guess yeah, his thought on it would most likely be like as I was all said, a little combination of all three things, but I think it's just, I think it's
[SPEAKER_03]: of our own history and the way things have kind of changed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not something that really came to mind for me, like thinking through this, but that's part of why these chats are so fun is because we get to have other people jump in and say, hey, I've always wondered this and I go, oh, it's also why I like when you guys ask questions and post comments on the episodes,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I can only see things through my perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I have to, you know, oh, that's a good.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I should address that people probably want to know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's move on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who would like to go next?
[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel?
[SPEAKER_02]: Asle?
[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel, do you got something?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the one that's been kind of weighing just because I read an article on Substack about it recently and then have heard Christopher Tolkien's take on the movies and just everything that's come up of recent within the last 20 odd years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is I wonder what Tolkien's like Papa Tolkien's
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, over the last number of years, I wonder what he would really think of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like, I remember here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was a bonus episode about Tolkien and Louis going to see Snow White and theaters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one of the best images I've ever had in my whole life.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the two of them sitting in the theater watching Snow White.
[SPEAKER_02]: It must be amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would love a movie that was just Tolkien and Louis's go to Snow White.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is just them walking to the theater and then having a conversation and like a coffee house or a bar afterwards about like about the movie I would love that because it's so funny to think about.
[SPEAKER_00]: It really was.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that image.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I was driving home and I laughed out loud at that one, so But I would just be curious because I know a Christopher's take on the movies was like he loathed them like he had nothing positive to say about them at all But I would be curious to know What what Jared talking might have thought about about these movies that Yeah talking of Christopher has points, but there's also like
[SPEAKER_00]: it's introduced a whole mother generation to this work that they may not have engaged with at all if it had just been left to his books and so yeah maybe it's not as preferred version but it's still is an introductory point for them and a lot of them did go on to read the books and engage with the world in a much deeper fashion so yeah I would be interested in in that and his
[SPEAKER_00]: It is taken on all of that and even it kind of a second here question just because it is part of the movie industry is whether he saw it or what he would be making of AI and all of that jazz.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he would like to have won a bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but here it's talk about the movie thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're on to something.
[SPEAKER_02]: My gut instinct on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: based on everything I've read and and all of that and his other reactions to Snow White is that he would hate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He would hate every little change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the same way that he would when he was working with his editors in the publisher, the way that like even if they just changed one little thing like he has his reasons for why he puts things in his stories, why he writes them in a certain order, why he uses certain words, all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you have to translate his works to something else, whether it's a movie or a TV show or a video game, I have a feeling he would have just, like, he would have considered it a, I don't know, a shadow of the thing that he was creating.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, um, but the flip side is,
[SPEAKER_02]: what you said without that how many people would have missed out on then becoming fans of his work and then digging deeper and reading the novels and seeing the version of the stories that he wanted us to have, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it is kind of a double-edged sword, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it really is a benefit there, but at the same time, I don't know that he would have stood for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I think it would have driven him nuts.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's my sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: assume that Christopher Tolkien kind of spoke for his father's will on that one, but yeah, he had nothing positive to say, even though it did lead a lot of people to his father's properties and engaging with the work, but he just couldn't, like you said, stand the idea of it being so altered, and the elegance of the words being taken away and
[SPEAKER_00]: They earlier were saying about the ages and whether that was just a plot device or intentional, and I think of the fact that it hurt like with him being a literary professor and a linguist in his own right.
[SPEAKER_00]: There wasn't a single word that wasn't intentionally chosen that everything was intentional from start to finish.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like
[SPEAKER_00]: Robert Jordan, who I've read in multiple times and you get the sense that sometimes his world got away from him and he couldn't quite brain it back until it was such a big monstrosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: He almost had to leave things alone because he couldn't ever wrap everything up properly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking that never seemed like every single word, every single
[SPEAKER_00]: there was no accident.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was no plot devices left unexplored because it didn't work in the grand scheme.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, to watch so much of that have to be put on the cutting room floor would, yeah, probably not have suited him well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I wonder how he would have reacted the fact that it did introduce it so many people to his work though, like, would he been appreciative of that fact or just said, no, it stands for itself or it doesn't stand at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well I know he wasn't he wasn't big on fame.
[SPEAKER_02]: He didn't do this in order to become famous to get him to sit down for an interview was always a little bit of a pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he wasn't in it to be a celebrity.
[SPEAKER_02]: He didn't want that.
[SPEAKER_02]: He did like the fact that people enjoyed his work.
[SPEAKER_02]: and he did like that people would write questions and became even more curious about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he would answer those questions and write letters back and things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, there is a little bit of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if having a conversation with him,
[SPEAKER_02]: argue from the moral stance.
[SPEAKER_02]: You could pitch something along the moral lines of, but your works have such great moral importance to society.
[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't it worth it to make something a little bit less authentic, but more easily digested in order to bring people into the work in order to share this moral perspective with them?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he might go,
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, that's, that's fine, but it's not the art that I was created or something like that, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he, but I think he actually probably would have.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, taking a little more, or giving them a little less creative liberty and involved them so far is what I would like to think, but also probably cut a deal for, like, listen, if you're going to do this, then maybe you allow, you know, we somehow figure out a way to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you've said before, probably be very difficult, but some version of the Summer Olympics, because that he would feel that that would be just as important as telling a third age.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the other, the other idea, when Daniel, when you were talking, we as fans will learn something like Peter Jackson and his team decided to take the lines from this character because it didn't fit in where that part of the movie was, and they took those lines and they gave it to another character in order to convey that information just through somebody else's mouth or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like I feel that would have easily have done the wrong thing even though like you say like I see the benefit having those those authentic lines still included in there Right, I think that he would have enjoyed the at least the different characters saying it because it would have ruined
[SPEAKER_01]: is meaning behind them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because he would have been like, that was error gorens.
[SPEAKER_02]: So error gorens the one who said that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did you give that to Gandalf?
[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gandalf wouldn't say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like he's he's he's definitely the kind of thinker, the kind of professor, who is everything is so zoomed in and every reason, every time he does anything, it's it's as if he fortifies the ideas from all angles.
[SPEAKER_02]: if that makes sense and so we as fans go, oh well maybe he won't like it because of this one thing, whereas he would probably sit there for an hour and say, well that violates this and that also it also breaks this and then there's this the reason why that character in that moment like the nuance of his argument would have been such that we wouldn't have been able to predict it but it would have made a lot of sense by the time he got through all the all the reasoning, that sort of thing like that's the sense I have.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel it's similar to, as you've been talking recently with Gendelf and Frodo discovering the ring and the whole idea that he's almost riding in his past plot holes into the story in order to cover them and make them no longer blood holes, Bill Murray's story no longer being the truthful story that he told everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it does make me wonder if, like what you're saying with your point there, if that's how he would actually approach this reasoning for why he does it doesn't like something about the alternative medias, making you versions of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But one question I've obviously wanted for that is, would there be at least, I understand a lot of people feel as differently, but books you have your entire imagination to pull from.
[SPEAKER_01]: would there be a single depiction of any of the scenes or the moments of the characters where he thought actually, I think I prefer how the black gate looks there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I enjoy the delivery on AMA's armor or something like that, just something dread any of these pieces of media, whether that's films or television, or games that he might go actually didn't mind how you guys did that and that it was very similar to what I was
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind, I think that's an interesting question too, is that like a lot of the things he would have been like, well, like he would have, you know, you bring up a character like fair mirror, who is distinctly different in the movies or aeragorn, he would have that he would have been like, no, no, no, no, you did those characters wrong redo it, but
[SPEAKER_02]: The first thing I think about is the way the items, the locations, the buildings, the armor, of Rohan looks.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think is probably one of the closest things to his vision of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that they were basically Vikings with horses.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the way that that is shown in the film is feels very authentic to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wonder if he would feel the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, well, long house is the horse heads at the ends and like on the pommels of the swords and on like the head of the like the helm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, even the helmet and the armor as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely everywhere and right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go to point there and he's really sort of depicting that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly as it's been described in the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, the fact that, like, the majority of their forces are on horseback all the time, like when we say Eomer and his men surround Le Galoss and Gimli and Eragorn, and they'll have spears out which they would have used.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like that kind of stuff, I feel like he would have probably been very, very happy with, I think, like that feels the most authentic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe even just like the vision of the Shire, the way the Shire looks,
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it's pretty authentic.
[SPEAKER_02]: The round doors, the grassy fields, the farming, the ruralness of it, the bright sunshine, the nice weather, all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you guys think?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a really interesting question.
[SPEAKER_02]: What parts of the films do you think that he would be happy or excited about?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else that stands out?
[SPEAKER_03]: The, I think for me, I mean, it just kind of comes from the movie, but not really the newest animated
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that one was very, it felt very true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It felt very like something that was a little closer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, given that it was animated, it was a little more leeway to be a little more exact, you know, with the scenes that they can add in and take out.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I felt like that was, I think that he would really, would have really enjoyed that telling of that story, that the men stories, men alone story pretty much, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I don't think I saw such that,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I still don't know if somebody asked me recent there like have you watched it and like you know what I just have and I haven't made time to do it Which sounds crazy because I do it talking podcast, but like I just haven't sat down and like pulled it up and and watched it I haven't watched much of anything recently and like the last few years I just kind of moved away from watching a whole lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, what do you think Daniel?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would
[SPEAKER_00]: the brotherhood or the connection between Frodo and Sam, I think they captured that well and I think it translated well.
[SPEAKER_00]: well onto the screen, um, it was in some ways maybe on the screen, it was even more just because you could see it being played out between, um, the two actors, um, it was so pointed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, it made you realize again how amazing the carrot sounds character was, and, and, and their bond of friendship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he would have appreciated
[SPEAKER_00]: the fact that that translated so so well, uh, a onto the screen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And although Erdogan was different, I think there was still that inherent nobility about him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was still very much present.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is a person to want to be like, like, he's just the the greatest guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in both the book and the movie,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they did well in the movie to Emmy they they had its story are different on obviously more Dawding himself not nearly is certain about his destiny as he was in the books but he was still inherently noble and still inherently kingly right if he wasn't certain about himself in the movie so I think those two things and I person from a personal perspective Gandalf facing the Valoralk that moment on the bridge
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a pretty amazing visual and I don't know if he ever had it fully flashed out in his mind But man that one just when you read the book and then you see it on the screen It's like I can't imagine that otherwise.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's pretty solid a debate about wings
[SPEAKER_03]: the score of that moment I think would have also been the way it ties in all of that movie magic coming together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's super super iconic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and then you bring up Gandalf.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he in McCullan, Kellan's McKellen.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how you say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: His portrayal of Gandalf.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel it's pretty solid.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like he's he's wise.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's patient.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's also grumpy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: He's all of the Gandalf things, and he does it very well, and that fits very well, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: He even bore a mirror.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sauron.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so, okay, Sauron.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sauron, yeah, he would have been upset about Sauron on story getting changed, and like the whole end of the booking being removed, the scouring of the shire, and all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think maybe, maybe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, that one's tricky because Saraman went, uh, nobody realized that he was corrupted until so, so late.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, uh, Christopher Lee's performance is always, there's something just in his nature that comes across a little bit, a little bit sketchy from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, maybe that's just a choice of the actor kind of thing that really fits the way a lot of, you know, kind of the things that he would probably, I think that he would be of set that it wasn't, they couldn't simply find a way to make it much clear that Gandalf left for numerous years before he turned to Frodo.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that was for me that was one thing that stood out initially, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was like what that was kind of an oversight like they don't have calendars that you can just change the date on in the background for Hobbits or something like that Yeah, make it a little obvious Yeah, and Hobbit like spans are confusing to like I get the struggles that you go through trying to pitch this to like in the average audience who never read the books at all And like you know to say like well Frodo or Bilbo leave on their journey at 50 years old like before what you like
[SPEAKER_02]: 50 are you sure like not a younger and it's like well 50 for Hobbits is not really, but like you don't have the time to really explain that You just have to kind of like The hope people start to get it, you know, and then cast an actor doesn't look 50 because you know that kind of thing Yeah, that's always a little funny
[SPEAKER_00]: the other piece I mean as you were talking and Eldarian I was remembering the first time I I watched the movie and I really liked it but I had some reservations about it that was one of them how compressed that that first part of the story felt but then also there's struggle on weather pop.
[SPEAKER_00]: and how will Ergon warns them how deadly these creatures are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he basically is able to scare them off by himself in the movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet is
[SPEAKER_00]: is it not, my memory is not serving, is it not the photos calling out for alberia, alberia, yeah, yeah, that sounds right, scares them, it's he's used of the of her, like calling out for her and the powers of balonore that scare them more than air gorn ever did in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they had to make changes like that in order to set our, it's so weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: As people who watch movies, we expect every movie to work and function the way the mechanics of other movies work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to set up a character whose heroic with a heroic moment to prove that they're a good guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you have, of course, the, you know, scary introduction of strider being the guy in the back with the hood and looking all creepy and then he shows up to save them from the the rathes who show up, you know, to try to kill them and
[SPEAKER_02]: if you're a movie watcher you're still going yeah but is he bad in another way so you have to have a moment the insert into the film that goes no he's a good guy he saved their lives and fought that and and i'm not and he's a badass because he can fight all these ring rates but like when he actually back up and look at it again you go wait a minute what how did he fight with some pillows yeah you know was just a great little night i won't point like you know
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's its movie logic, but you know, and in the same reason why you would like shortcut the beginning of the film is because the average movie gore doesn't want to sit there for 20, 30 minutes in the shire before the story gets going, you know, that's sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is, I'm heck going back through the first three chapters of the fellowship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it does take a while for things to just kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: Start moving because like you guys said Gandalf has to give his explanations for why certain things are the way they are and why the Hobbit makes sense in this world and all of that So it is it is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is interesting All right, well, let's go ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you want to I want to move on to the next question, but if you have something more to add Really real last on something I think that that would have been kind of those those little editorial things that
[SPEAKER_03]: Tolkien, well, as I said, Papa talking what about it into these movies to make it very clear that there is a history here, but you're right, right, and I think that that's kind of, you know, the only thing that the public would have, he would have been able to change because it's probably, it's a lot going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I would love to see his version of the movies.
[SPEAKER_02]: They would, it would be like, I don't know, 30 hours long, but, but it would be really interesting to see what he would put together.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know that you can ever get that funded.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that would work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, all right, let's move on to Azorazal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any any questions you would ask the professor?
[SPEAKER_01]: But finally enough, the question I was going to come up with was the same one that Daniel asked about what do you think of the external media just because it's not just you know the animated films of the last century or the sort of the main ones we know with the Peter Jackson films it's just spread to video games it's spread to I guess even more artists just during the depictions of things and it's just
[SPEAKER_01]: change and so many different ways, like even with a video game, it doesn't work the same way that a book or film word has sort of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It will sort of have the same structure, but there's a lot more external factor coming into play there from the player.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, makes me wonder if he'd be just completely against something as simple as that, even if it is doing the benefit of introducing more people to deeper of his world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't sure, I have one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome to just kind of hang out and chime in as you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like Daniel's got a few other questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel, do you want to toss this one of your other questions?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was intrigued of recent read and article again, might've been the same person.
[SPEAKER_00]: About, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: how when he was, he was denied this, I think that his name was put up for a Pulitzer Prize in literature.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it really the Nobel Prize, the one I talked about recently?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that's right, not the Pulitzer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he wasn't seriously, they looked, but they didn't seriously consider him.
[SPEAKER_00]: They thought his writing was,
[SPEAKER_00]: was unimportant and and belonged in the realm of children's literature, not serious literature.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and overly verb verbers, and the poetry wasn't very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't very good at all the rest of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember that I don't even remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh.
[SPEAKER_00]: was actually one that year.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a book I've ever heard, and then they listed the books that were up alongside of Tolkien's work and it's just ridiculous, like this is the powerhouse of authors who were snubbed that year in favor of this
[SPEAKER_00]: hyper realistic European novel that nobody remembers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I did an episode bonus episode about this recently if I can pull it out of the back of my brain.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, it was like, uh, it was, it was a book about, uh, it was the history of Poland or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was, it was something very, I don't know, and domestic in comparison to, you know, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: out of that's even the best description.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, but yeah, I get what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is kind of amazing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But my question to him then would be like, here he's got this world that's obviously lived in his head for so long.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's polished it and he's looked at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's he had like earlier versions of the Silmarillion or version of the prehistory long before he'd even written the Hobbit.
[SPEAKER_00]: All that stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the idea of putting down in paper some of the ideas that float around in my head, but I always think that nobody's going to want to read that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to just ask him like what was the driving force that kept you motivated to tell the story even when your peers outside of your best friend were telling you this is literature that's unimportant.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're a serious professor, you're a flitter chair and all the rest of it, and that he did, you're highly regarded, and yet what drove you to tell this, what ended up being a remarkable and revolutionary type of storytelling, but it was so easy for him to say,
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm up the wrong path here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I should just keep these stories to myself and not share them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to just ask him that question of what kept you going, like what propelled you to tell this story because it changed the world with it, but at the time it didn't look like that was gonna happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a pretty good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have some speculation that comes to mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the first piece is probably influenced from his children, especially Christopher Tolkien, saying, hey, hey, dad, the world needs to read these, like, get these out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the second piece is, by the time Louis submitted him to the Nobel Board, the...
[SPEAKER_02]: Lord of the Rings had, it was already out for two years, I believe, something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in that time, from the Hobbit, he got letters.
[SPEAKER_02]: People would write him, but especially after the Lord of the Rings, if I recall correctly, and I'm sure I could make some of this stuff up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But after that came out and started building, surprisingly, building a fan base.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was getting more and more letters from fans.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if...
[SPEAKER_02]: If what I do with this show is just a tiny little spec compared to the greatness of what he's done, and the kinds of things that you guys or like other people will just send me, sometimes I get just emails out of the blue, sometimes I get people signing up on Patreon saying, thank you so much for doing this show.
[SPEAKER_02]: It means so much to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love these works.
[SPEAKER_02]: They they changed my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: the little glimpse that I can see of the way that people praise what he did.
[SPEAKER_02]: If he was even just getting, you know, any letters that were like that, I would imagine that that probably meant the world to him to hear that like, like people, the right people were enjoying the work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like maybe it's the Nobel Board isn't the right people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he knew that like his fellow academics weren't all going to understand because he already got feedback from them and they
[SPEAKER_02]: But when it came to other people out in the world, I think he probably was like, okay, there are people who understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's worth it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That'd be my guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say, and as you were talking, yeah, just the mutual support perhaps from the group, he was like, his wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I was her name was escaping me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah, I'm names fall out of my brain all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I used it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just talked about her recently.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like her support.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, seemed like they were just kind of a couple that always had each others back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just love the fact that on her tombstone, she's refers to her as Lothian.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then also the inklings, like that group of authors, he was part of and, like, Lewis, and I did a class in seminary on Dorothy L. Sayers, and she was part of that same group, and how much they would have supported each other, and encouraged one another to keep writing, and keep doing what they're doing, because their stories needed to be told, and
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm, those kinds of groups would probably go a long way to keep, you push you forward and keep, help you tell your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: The closest thing I can talk about that resonates with me with that, Apple 2 things, is being a podcaster and having a network of other hosts, other podcasters.
[SPEAKER_02]: And being able to help and support each other and say, hey, you're doing a great job, keep it up, you know, like that is big.
[SPEAKER_02]: But even more so,
[SPEAKER_02]: Back when I was playing music, so I started playing music in high school through college and then into my 20s and pursued touring with a band trying to get record deal all of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I hadn't had the other musicians not only in my bands that I'd been playing with, but the other bands we played with as well, if we didn't have this built-in community of what you're doing is awesome, keep doing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: then I don't know that like would have kept doing it because I like today the world is very different I still plug into forums where musicians and guitars talk and things like that and you go back 20, 25 years and it was very common that most musicians were playing out publicly.
[SPEAKER_02]: The most musicians were getting together in jamming with other musicians and
[SPEAKER_02]: But the advent of the internet, COVID, maybe the ability to just record on your computer or play along with something you've downloaded.
[SPEAKER_02]: Means that a lot of people are just, they're just bedroom hobbyists.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're always were bedroom hobbyists, but I feel like that's almost flipped.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like if you actually get together with other people and do this with other people, that's rare.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that feels weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know like like talking with like you're saying without the inklings, would he have continued working on this stuff?
[SPEAKER_02]: Would he have put it out into the world?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're right, that community is important.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like to think he probably would have been a little less inclined to do it as quickly, but he probably would have, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm sure you guys all have a copy of the similar
[SPEAKER_03]: And in that he kind of speaks about how this was in his mind the way to create, you know, a alleged legendarium, you know, for England that he felt didn't have one.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that was one of the biggest, the kind of influences or inspirations to keep him.
[SPEAKER_03]: uh, you know, going to have something that you could leave that was both new and refreshing to give a little background, you know, but a tale of fairy as it were.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: A public reason, like there's public value to this, like that sort of Frank.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that does make sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, any other thoughts on this?
[SPEAKER_02]: As a result, I've had any thoughts on this one that you want to chime in.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not too much for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just enjoying the conversation, but I do agree with
[SPEAKER_01]: forward in the film, really, and it does sort of tend to mention the lack of sort of faith for Fengland and wanting to make a zone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that was just enough of his drive as well as the the children's stories he would have with the Hobbit as he would making them up before they became bubbly and I guess just doing all this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, it is very interesting that he did just
[SPEAKER_01]: in so much depth, it wasn't just a sort of a light draft.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was notes upon notes with different stories all over the place.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't even just a single story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've barren and Lutheran, but then you also have these other external ones, which aren't even to do with anything with sort of a lot of the rings.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet he just kept going and clearly just had that creative nature inside him, despite the world of the fact and on fiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: right yeah he's not he's not the kind of person who is a creator because he was pursuing it for a career or trying to make a living doing it he did it or at least this is I think this is my personal perspective he did it because he could not not do it right yeah like that like he was compelled to continue writing his stories and writing about his world and going back and revising things and and the picture in my head is
[SPEAKER_02]: he would get done with a day as a professor and he hated grading papers and like he'd get through grading papers and the first thing he would do would be to put that aside and then turn you to turn to his desk with his other writings and then finally be like okay now I can relax and then he would get to like creating more of his world.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how accurate that is as a picture but it's kind of the way it works in my brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oops out of window like Indiana Jones goes home to write on this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very much.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would imagine, um, yeah, it's, it is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, you know, living back in his time would have been different too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, uh, as, as a modern father, if my son is home, I feel like I should be obligated to give him time and to be available to him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but oftentimes, you go back to that time period.
[SPEAKER_02]: And,
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, these trends are always funny to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: This idea that like, you go back to even the 1960s and 1970s and the majority of men would go to the bar after work.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's weird, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you don't go home and say, like, you've been gone all day working your job, but you don't go home to visit your family and spend time with your kids before they go to bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: You go to the bar.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, that's weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not saying Tolkien necessarily went to the bar,
[SPEAKER_02]: He was the man of the house, if he felt like he had a hard day and just wanted to bury his head and creating stories, he probably could do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was socially acceptable at the time, you know, that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of funny to think about, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, all right, any other questions, any other things Daniel, any other things that pop in your head?
[SPEAKER_00]: or many, but is anybody else's got a question?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to monopolize.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that we're talking about this creation of stories, who would he like as an author?
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, who would he enjoy reading?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, because I assume his reading habits were a little more.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was a little pickier.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would imagine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm a sure person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have to want to, I guess if to reframe that question, I wonder if he would like any of the authors that felt inspired by him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, which ones, you know, like, I don't know that he would like George R. Martin, for example.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't do anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he would, because George R. Martin is kind of the antithesis in some ways of talking as an author.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think he would like the way he has
[SPEAKER_03]: continued the expansion of the audience of fantasy.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think his works specifically, most likely not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now I enjoy both, but I enjoy it both in very different ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't expect the same things from both, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that he would be, I mean, honored to have Stephen King call him an influence, because I think Stephen King in his own right is quite very
[SPEAKER_03]: books have become movies that quite to the success of a lot of the rings, but you know, I think that that would be someone that he would say, oh, this, this guy's doing something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: What did the rest of you guys think?
[SPEAKER_01]: The tough one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel he was, because he's very particular about his writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes very deep into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I feel that there is certain authors not to put anyone down where it feels they're a little.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shallow, despite the popularity that I'm just there and have that depth that other worlds have and I'm not too sure if he would look down upon that or want something just as
[SPEAKER_01]: media is what his own work is or whether he would be willing to even enjoy some of the lot of stories of all of those authors just as much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, my guess is that he doesn't, he wouldn't require a story to be massive and deep and even world-building.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I have a feeling that any of the modern work that he would have enjoyed might be very distinctly different from the setting and the stories, the qualities
[SPEAKER_02]: features that he found compelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, the repetition of classical themes that show up in his work in maybe in a different format show up in another work, or really interesting creative use of poetry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have feeling he'd probably be really into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know, like I think this is a tricky question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't like I'm trying to think of times that he mentioned
[SPEAKER_02]: rather than critically, you know, for as much as he was friends with Lewis and supported what Lewis did, he definitely had some very critical things to say about Lewis's work.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that didn't necessarily mean that he didn't like it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just meant that he, you know, as an academic, you can do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can say, well, I have a bone to pick about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really love your work, but I really have a bone to pick about this, you know, at the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and then the fact that he
[SPEAKER_00]: he doesn't want to tell a student still waste your time with Chaucer and and Shakespeare going read the old Icelandic lace yeah yeah i mean that gets very particular yeah still worry about Shakespeare that that guy's a hack
[SPEAKER_02]: right and he didn't like Dune.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dune was another like massive kind of world.
[SPEAKER_02]: He hated it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my sense of that is because it very, I don't know, stories like Dune do not play the same way with the themes that he uses in the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, one example of this would be the use of Messiah figure in Dune is very different than it is and say the Lord of the Rings.
[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of thing is like he takes, he takes issue with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think there's something about his perspective on these things that says there's some shudds there.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're going to have a Messiah figure, it should do these functions and if it doesn't,
[SPEAKER_02]: did it wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel that any of the allegory of Duryan is also part of the issue?
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he didn't like allegory.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and I mean, that was one of his issues with loose his works.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, he's like, Hasland is Jesus, and he's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: like that's a little on the nose, don't you think?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is a slight tangent, and I don't know how true it is, I just remember hearing it on the, when the first of the Narnia movies came out, and they were talking about its relative success, but then they spoke about how
[SPEAKER_00]: Lewis, when he wrote the line of the witch in the wardrobe, and maybe it came at a different point in his own faith journey, I'm not, don't know his timeline that well, but when he wrote the story, he was unaware of the fact of how closely the story aligned with the story of the resurrection, and it wasn't until he was pointed out to him that he realized that he had created this allegory for Christ in the, in the Aslan figure,
[SPEAKER_00]: something he didn't intentionally lean into from that point on, but when he first wrote it, or so I've heard he didn't actually know, he didn't intentionally allegorize Aslan as Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't still somebody pointed out to him and he went, oh, okay, yeah, you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, let me look at the details here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, lined them up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all right, cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I guess I did that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is like this opens up all sorts of other doors.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like so much of literature has been influenced by the Bible and Bible stories that he may have been using subconsciously inspiration of other Christ-like characters in stories that he had read, not realizing that what he was then pulling, went dated back to Christ and then, you know, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: like if you're referencing something that references something that references something that references something and you didn't know the original reference then maybe like yeah I can see why that would be accidental you know like you may not even realize it in the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was very intentional about it later.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was very specific about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I heard in the original.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, wouldn't it be great to be able to just sit down and just have a conversation?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure, for all the things that we can predict and all the things that we can think about, like, we've read so much over the years.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've studied this or that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure we would all be surprised.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure he would throw a hot take in current language at us about something.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'd be like, wow, really, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he would spend, like I said, an hour explaining the nuance of the justification.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we would leave going, okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, I can see that.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, didn't think about that way, but got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well guys, this has been a wonderful conversation where we're hitting close to the end here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else you'd like to share or any, any ways that you want people to reach out to you or things you want to put out into the world?
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to go kind of in order here and give you each a chance to kind of shout some stuff out or even just like leave us with a question or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: As well as I'm just going to go in order on the screen as well as I'll
[SPEAKER_01]: And he thought, any lesson again for having me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Considering some of the topics we discussed earlier, I'll say leave us with the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is everyone's favorite age of the ages of the world?
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe that's what we should do.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all come up with questions to end these episodes on so that we can pick up those questions on the next episode and think about them a moment, you know, and then come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: More people will join us next time and then more questions and answers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got 30 VIP patrons.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is just a tenth of the audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're all welcome to join or sign up and join us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, good question as a result.
[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel, what would you be your question to like pose to the world and like maybe come back and discuss again on a future episode?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's a good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, a question I didn't ask but thought of, I mean, how much, how much influence do we not literary influence but like real world influence do we see trickled into tokens work like his experience not just in industrial England and the shaping of the world that he wants new, but also his experience in world war one and.
[SPEAKER_00]: all of the horrors he went through.
[SPEAKER_00]: How much of that really do we see on the page when we read Lord of the Rings and the other epic works of his and how much of it in some respects is he even whether he knows it or not kind of working processing the stuff that he experienced in his life, the loss of his England, the horrors of World War I, how much of that is
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I didn't love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you talked about Lutheran on Edith's grave.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the more I study him, the more it seems like he was maybe even subconsciously but processing the things in his life and putting them on to into these works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's that's a great question and i'm sure there are things that i haven't even thought about so i would love to hear people's thoughts on that as well uh but thank you for joining us again anything anything that you want to leave for people to reach out to you or anything like i forget to ask as a result for that but we'll get back to it if you want people to reach out that's fine but if if not that's fine too yeah not really at this point yeah okay as a result you want to get people way to reach out on social media or just on i don't know on the patreon or whatever i'll just
[SPEAKER_02]: same name on the on the patreon as well as the discord awesome awesome and then al daryan is right thanks for joining us this time I'm so glad you made it and thank you for bringing your questions and discussion that was a lot of fun any Any way people can reach out to you or question that you want to leave for everybody
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, nowhere to reach out, I mean, I'm obviously part of the chats here and there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I always tap it to discuss things on the Patreon or I'm on the discord as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say no, no question, but if, I mean, just kind of, I know referring back to myself, but I was saying, one of the bigger topics that I found after finishing one of the rings was the Dark Towers series by CDK, so if you guys are looking for any read, that's a good one
[SPEAKER_03]: Very different, but they're kind of the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, anyways, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a different type of story, but yeah, I can see where you're like, yeah, I'm a kind of, yeah, yeah, awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you guys for joining me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's against you, Eldarian is right, as a result, and dangling late, we were for joining me on that chat.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was always a lot of fun to get together with people and just kind of nerd out about everything.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your week, I'll be back talking more about Chapter 3 of the Fellowship of the Ring next time, and I'll see you then, stay safe out there.
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