WEBVTT 00:11.962 --> 00:26.730 [SPEAKER_01]: In today's episode of Consider Before Consuming, we're joined by Dr. Nicholas Lawless, a clinical psychologist and couples therapist who works closely with individuals and couples navigating the impact of pornography on relationships. 00:27.115 --> 00:39.788 [SPEAKER_01]: In this conversation, we explore how relationships are shaped by where our attention goes, and how even subtle shifts in focus can either strengthen connection or lead to disconnection over time. 00:40.729 --> 00:53.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Lawless shares both research insights and real experiences from his work with couples, helping break down how porn can influence expectations, intimacy, and relationship dynamics. 00:53.862 --> 01:03.896 [SPEAKER_01]: We also talk about the impact on partners, why porn can feel like a betrayal in some relationships, and what it looks like to begin rebuilding trust and connection. 01:04.777 --> 01:06.499 [SPEAKER_01]: With that, let's jump in. 01:07.500 --> 01:11.326 [SPEAKER_01]: We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 01:13.969 --> 01:17.314 [SPEAKER_02]: Well Nick, thank you so much for joining me today on Consider Before Consuming. 01:17.334 --> 01:23.582 [SPEAKER_02]: To get started, can you share with our listeners a little bit about who you are 01:24.710 --> 01:26.092 [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, thanks, Natalie. 01:26.293 --> 01:27.635 [SPEAKER_04]: So my name's Nick. 01:28.737 --> 01:35.589 [SPEAKER_04]: I am a clinical psychologist in a couple of therapists, running my own product practice in Melbourne, Australia. 01:36.851 --> 01:46.347 [SPEAKER_04]: I work a lot with individuals who struggle with all forms of sexual addiction, pornography included. 01:46.327 --> 02:01.872 [SPEAKER_04]: use that term loosely, knowing that it's not a technical diagnosis, compulsive sexual baby disorders, what would be kind of actually talking about clinically, but people don't know what that means, so sexual addiction is kind of what we refer to it locally as. 02:01.852 --> 02:14.509 [SPEAKER_04]: I also work a lot with couples who are struggling in this area, be that one of them has, you know, being struggling with pornography use or some other form of sexual addiction and the other ones just found out betrayal, trauma, etc. 02:15.750 --> 02:22.459 [SPEAKER_04]: So I mean this space a lot in fidelity in general because 02:22.439 --> 02:34.660 [SPEAKER_04]: space, and just this year started to work with groups as well, of men struggling in such a addiction, which is new for me, but has been very powerful. 02:35.618 --> 02:35.899 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 02:36.420 --> 02:36.841 [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing. 02:36.861 --> 02:50.529 [SPEAKER_02]: You're really seeing this issue, how pornography affects relationships from all facets and I'm so excited to get to have this conversation with you today before we dive into talking about some of the research you've done and your experience. 02:50.549 --> 02:56.682 [SPEAKER_02]: What first drew you to studying romantic relationships and the role that pornography can play in them. 02:57.640 --> 03:09.496 [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, so when I was kind of trying to work out what career I wanted to, what path I wanted to head down, I wanted to do something that would make a real difference to the world, to people's lives. 03:09.596 --> 03:16.345 [SPEAKER_04]: And I was trying to think, you know, what's the way I can make the biggest impact, essentially, was my thought process. 03:16.406 --> 03:19.049 [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, people's mental health, right? 03:19.069 --> 03:23.395 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, yep, I could be a doctor or something and help people with their broken legs, but 03:23.813 --> 03:26.038 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you could be really happy with your broken leg. 03:26.399 --> 03:33.595 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, impacts you absolutely and you're whatnot, but, you know, there are lots of people that are physically very well and very miserable regardless. 03:33.655 --> 03:41.873 [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, okay, psychology is kind of the path and we're down that path and, you know, the many years of study and whatnot. 03:41.853 --> 04:02.393 [SPEAKER_04]: But I also had a particular kind of pull towards working with couples because when I'm thinking about mental health and thinking about what impacts mental health more than anything else, relationships and in particular romantic relationships, we know kind of the biggest predictor of people's mental health quality of life. 04:02.373 --> 04:20.753 [SPEAKER_04]: so I wanted to get into this couple therapy space and when I finally got qualified and I was working with individuals but then couples as well what I found a lot of were couples who were using a lot of porn and having next to or no. 04:20.733 --> 04:43.433 [SPEAKER_04]: 6 and so this high point, no sex kind of dynamic seem to be playing out across almost all the couples that I was seeing and at that point I was not in any way specifically you know specialising in this field or this area any more than anybody else and so when I got the opportunity to do a PhD 04:43.413 --> 04:47.138 [SPEAKER_04]: and it happened to be, you know, I was working with Relationship Researcher. 04:47.999 --> 04:48.679 [SPEAKER_04]: So I was like, great. 04:48.840 --> 04:49.701 [SPEAKER_04]: I want to be a part of this. 04:50.422 --> 04:53.866 [SPEAKER_04]: And then he said, what do you want to kind of do your thesis on? 04:54.927 --> 05:04.839 [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, well, I'm really curious about the interplay between porn and sex and relationship functioning, sexual functioning in general and how this impacts relationships overall. 05:04.919 --> 05:07.783 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's kind of how I ended up in that space. 05:08.405 --> 05:09.246 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 05:09.266 --> 05:15.272 [SPEAKER_02]: And your relationship, research and the work that you've done studying couples is so important. 05:15.352 --> 05:19.496 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm excited for our listeners to get to hear a little bit about that. 05:19.516 --> 05:28.465 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you tell us a bit about what you've learned about outside influences or some of the most common ways that outside influences are affecting relationships? 05:31.107 --> 05:38.074 [SPEAKER_04]: From my research perspective, one of the 05:38.695 --> 05:43.925 [SPEAKER_04]: and how that is kind of wired to operate in a relationship. 05:44.606 --> 06:00.535 [SPEAKER_04]: And essentially, the theory goes that, you know, we have this sexual system in built in us for the purpose of relationship, as well as procreation, obviously, in reproduction and the continuation of the human race. 06:00.515 --> 06:02.016 [SPEAKER_04]: But it's more than that. 06:02.176 --> 06:03.898 [SPEAKER_04]: It's more than just, you know, baking making. 06:04.699 --> 06:10.064 [SPEAKER_04]: There is a real unity of aspect to sex in general. 06:10.864 --> 06:22.715 [SPEAKER_04]: And so one of the things that I was curious about, particularly giving that background with the no sex and the high porn, was what's going on with people's sexual system here and how does that play out in terms of relationships? 06:22.735 --> 06:30.522 [SPEAKER_04]: So when we started to look at sexual arousal, which is like an indicator that your sexual system is activated, 06:30.502 --> 06:38.749 [SPEAKER_04]: We started to kind of go, okay, well, you know, it's clearly being activated by porn, which is sexually rousing material. 06:39.450 --> 06:47.777 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not being activated by the partner given the lack of sex that, you know, these people having. 06:47.797 --> 06:50.720 [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, does it still play out the same? 06:51.901 --> 06:55.364 [SPEAKER_04]: How does that mess with the unity of kind of aspect of this sexual system? 06:56.285 --> 06:58.787 [SPEAKER_04]: And so that's kind of where the research started. 06:59.476 --> 06:59.817 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 07:00.438 --> 07:05.830 [SPEAKER_02]: You often describe relationships as moving either toward connection or toward disconnection. 07:05.850 --> 07:12.826 [SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the more subtle ways that couples might start drifting toward disconnection without even realizing it? 07:14.209 --> 07:14.650 [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm. 07:16.334 --> 07:39.338 [SPEAKER_04]: I really, I want to highlight a word that was used in the Brain Heart World series that you guys put out there which I thought was fantastic and which, by the way, I watched after all of this kind of research that I was doing, but which I think fit really beautifully with it and that was the word focus. 07:39.318 --> 08:01.731 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think when people's focus starts to shift away from their partner and towards whatever it might be, you know, that might be work, it might be, you know, the kids, you know, so often that happens when kids come along and people's focus shifts or in the instance of porn, porn, right, or, you know, anybody else that they find attractive. 08:03.044 --> 08:08.133 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where start things start to kind of fall off from the disconnection itself to grow. 08:08.153 --> 08:27.786 [SPEAKER_04]: So if you start to notice that focus, like, you're not really thinking a whole lot about your partner, or they're saying to feel a little bit unseen, or forgotten, or unheard, not really important, warning signs, you know, but start to do something about it. 08:28.390 --> 08:31.575 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's like the grass is greenest where you water it, right? 08:31.615 --> 08:35.201 [SPEAKER_02]: Where your attention is going, that's where the impact is going to be. 08:35.963 --> 08:36.444 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 08:37.065 --> 08:37.265 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 08:37.525 --> 08:48.223 [SPEAKER_02]: And for any of our listeners who haven't heard of our BrainHeartworld documentary series, that Nick mentioned where we talk about how love is focused and how pornography is something that can pull you away from that focus. 08:48.944 --> 08:54.634 [SPEAKER_02]: You can watch that for free online at BrainHeartworld.org or on our website, 08:55.340 --> 09:02.770 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a, you know, a quick plug you haven't set me up for this or anything, but I do highly recommend that I think I think it was really, really good. 09:02.970 --> 09:06.255 [SPEAKER_04]: And again, I listen to it after doing all this research. 09:06.816 --> 09:14.506 [SPEAKER_04]: It was really refreshing to go, ah, like there's nothing that you said in any of that that was, you know, wrong. 09:15.047 --> 09:17.590 [SPEAKER_04]: It all fit with the research and everything that's out there. 09:17.610 --> 09:19.292 [SPEAKER_04]: So, and it's actually very engaging. 09:19.312 --> 09:21.195 [SPEAKER_04]: It's pretty high quality production soon. 09:21.175 --> 09:30.608 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for that and I hope our listeners will take this opportunity to watch that and look into some of your research as well. 09:31.489 --> 09:36.195 [SPEAKER_02]: We just talked about disconnection and how porn and where your focus is can pull you away on the flip side of that. 09:36.676 --> 09:42.964 [SPEAKER_02]: What tends to help couples stay connected or rebuild that sense of connection? 09:44.986 --> 09:47.010 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, let's roll with the same idea, right? 09:47.030 --> 09:49.074 [SPEAKER_04]: This, this idea of focus, right? 09:49.094 --> 09:51.319 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm turning your attention back towards each other. 09:52.040 --> 10:05.087 [SPEAKER_04]: And I would say this, there's something about, when you turn your focus away, there's a sense of, like, missing out on something, in a relationship, like, you're not, 10:06.248 --> 10:10.933 [SPEAKER_04]: You're not sharing everything when your attention turns to other things. 10:11.774 --> 10:15.278 [SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that we can do when it comes to, just connection, for instance, is just talking. 10:16.279 --> 10:26.590 [SPEAKER_04]: That sounds really basic, but the amount of couples that don't talk, or don't talk about anything meaningful, more specifically, that is a recipe for disconnection. 10:26.650 --> 10:35.580 [SPEAKER_04]: So, to actually start to connect, to start to open up, and you see that a lot in a couple of therapy, when people start to actually go like, wow, I had no idea that this was going on for you. 10:35.560 --> 10:38.305 [SPEAKER_04]: like that that's how you saw things that this is what was going on. 10:39.047 --> 10:41.692 [SPEAKER_04]: All of a sudden you have something to connect over. 10:42.373 --> 10:45.719 [SPEAKER_04]: You can actually see the person for who they are in their entirety. 10:46.881 --> 10:51.510 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's a very basic starting point, but I think it's worth staying there. 10:51.558 --> 11:06.381 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it is too because I think so often when we have these conversations of where people are feeling like, okay, I'm not having intimacy in my relationship, I'm not having sex in my relationship, they don't zoom all the way out to think of where that disconnection might be starting. 11:06.822 --> 11:17.498 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think it's worth mentioning just a lot of that has nothing to do with sex actually or intimacy, but that connection and building that safety in intimacy elsewhere. 11:18.102 --> 11:18.643 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. 11:19.104 --> 11:19.645 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. 11:19.665 --> 11:30.747 [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, you see it all the time with couples, um, this dynamic between, you know, like, I don't, I don't want to have sex for you because, you know, we don't, I don't feel emotionally connected to you. 11:30.767 --> 11:31.569 [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't feel safe. 11:32.270 --> 11:37.240 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and yeah, too often we, we go, okay, why don't I know how to do that it? 11:37.340 --> 11:39.925 [SPEAKER_04]: So I'll just go and try and meet my needs also. 11:40.411 --> 11:40.692 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 11:41.394 --> 11:53.745 [SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think the idea of how our attention can be directed either toward our partner or away from our partner hasn't been talked about more in conversations around porn and relationships? 11:55.835 --> 11:56.616 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a good question. 11:56.676 --> 12:04.348 [SPEAKER_04]: I think there is the intersection between different kind of domains of research, if you like, different fields. 12:06.371 --> 12:16.746 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a number of fields that kind of coalesced around my thesis topic, which did make it quite confusing at times and had to kind of 12:16.726 --> 12:28.570 [SPEAKER_04]: Integrated all because, you know, it's, it's romantic relationship literature isn't it what's kind of social Psychology, actually it's it's kind of the sex literature, right? 12:28.971 --> 12:35.224 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's all of them and usually researchers kind of following one of those camps 12:35.204 --> 12:42.559 [SPEAKER_04]: more than the others and so there's a bit of biology kind of going on, there's a bit of psychology, there's definitely some social elements to it. 12:44.183 --> 12:56.368 [SPEAKER_04]: That's where I think maybe there's been a bit of a lack of trying to kind of bring those fields together because I wasn't especially wedded to either one of those to begin with, you know, as fresh if you liked. 12:56.348 --> 13:09.784 [SPEAKER_04]: I think I didn't really notice that there was actually any sort of a difficulty there until I was right in it and well I kept going obviously with once I was there but I think that might be part of the reason why we haven't really tied it all together like this before 13:10.355 --> 13:11.236 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that makes sense. 13:11.917 --> 13:15.984 [SPEAKER_02]: In your research, you also talk about help-borne can-shave expectations. 13:16.524 --> 13:21.652 [SPEAKER_02]: What kinds of expectations are people picking up often without realizing it from pornography? 13:21.692 --> 13:27.842 [SPEAKER_02]: And how can those expectations start to create tension or dissatisfaction in real relationships? 13:28.983 --> 13:30.726 [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm, absolutely so. 13:30.925 --> 13:32.727 [SPEAKER_04]: Where do we start? 13:32.847 --> 13:38.154 [SPEAKER_04]: It's so really different expectations that kind of come from porn. 13:38.834 --> 13:58.738 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, look, the broader ones that I won't go into a whole lot of detail with, you know, we know that you know, a violence in pornography feeds into expectations and attitudes and also behaviors when it comes to how appropriate violence is in real relationships and sexual contexts. 13:58.718 --> 14:01.863 [SPEAKER_04]: We know that infertility is a big thing as well. 14:02.865 --> 14:14.244 [SPEAKER_04]: It's such a fantasy for so many people that it becomes like it's a full genre, when it comes to pornography, and that can feed into real relationships, absolutely. 14:16.067 --> 14:16.828 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think... 14:18.142 --> 14:20.306 [SPEAKER_04]: more broadly than that, right? 14:20.406 --> 14:23.693 [SPEAKER_04]: For those people who kind of go, okay, well, I'm not looking at the violent stuff. 14:23.713 --> 14:30.926 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't look at infidelity, you know, just look at the good stuff, the healthy stuff, the more natural stuff, that kind of thing. 14:31.708 --> 14:39.643 [SPEAKER_04]: There is still a focus on self, just by virtue of what you're doing with the poem. 14:39.742 --> 14:48.294 [SPEAKER_04]: So take away whatever is being shown by it in the content, you are using these other people for your own game. 14:49.116 --> 14:53.742 [SPEAKER_04]: And that is not a very healthy kind of approach to relationships from the get-go. 14:53.762 --> 15:09.225 [SPEAKER_04]: So just by virtue of that, that's one thing that I've mentioned, but over and above that, there's this emphasis when it comes to pornography and everything that's kind of depicted 15:09.880 --> 15:28.952 [SPEAKER_04]: focus is on the mechanics, the performance, the practical literal act or acts that are being depicted for people's sexual gratification rather than 15:29.067 --> 15:32.713 [SPEAKER_04]: the relationship, the connection, the unity of aspect that we were talking about before. 15:33.094 --> 15:33.995 [SPEAKER_04]: There is a lack of that. 15:34.636 --> 15:46.857 [SPEAKER_04]: And so when it comes to actual real sexual relationships, right, that expectation is not there, that we're going to feel close and connected, and we're going to talk about things beforehand, and you know, build some emotional safety. 15:47.444 --> 16:03.597 [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of like, no, when I want this, you're going to be there and we're going to have sex and it's going to be mind blowingly, you know, pleasurable and everyone's going to love everything that, you know, it happens no matter how full on or extreme it might be. 16:03.577 --> 16:04.418 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 16:04.538 --> 16:07.742 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I can't go, but I think I've brought it into a few different topics there. 16:07.762 --> 16:08.002 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 16:08.643 --> 16:11.085 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to double click into one of the topics you brought up. 16:12.066 --> 16:24.680 [SPEAKER_02]: Something really important about your research is that you talk about, you know, a lot of the other research about pornography's harms speaks to the content in pornography, speaks to, as you mentioned, that it's violent, that it's graphic. 16:25.041 --> 16:28.465 [SPEAKER_02]: We know how that influences young people, we know how that influences expectations. 16:28.845 --> 16:33.330 [SPEAKER_02]: But something really important about your research is that, as you mentioned, 16:33.310 --> 16:39.900 [SPEAKER_02]: content aside the act of engaging with pornography can still harm relationships. 16:39.981 --> 16:43.947 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you dive a little deeper into that idea for us? 16:44.107 --> 16:44.748 [SPEAKER_04]: I would love to. 16:45.790 --> 16:53.902 [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I mean this comes back to we kind of alluded to it before without really getting into it and I appreciate that I didn't realize that at the time. 16:53.922 --> 16:58.710 [SPEAKER_04]: But what my research kind of looked at is that when you are aroused by 16:59.990 --> 17:15.249 [SPEAKER_04]: people that are not your partner, and in some instances, and obviously every time we use porn or being aroused by someone that's not our partner, that very arousal has an impact on the relationship. 17:15.269 --> 17:29.507 [SPEAKER_04]: And it does that because that sexual system, that we spoke about before of which sexual arousal is just a part, it is directed towards the target of that sexual arousal. 17:29.757 --> 17:39.674 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a case that, you know, you get aroused by porn and then you can go, okay, I'm just going to direct all of that arousal towards my partner. 17:40.435 --> 17:54.820 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that's that's a plausible explanation, but we tested it literally in the research we had hypotheses around that and that's certainly not what we found across multiple studies and many hundreds of people. 17:54.800 --> 18:09.358 [SPEAKER_04]: What you found is that when you are aroused by somebody who is not your partner, your focus, your attention, your motivations, your behavior is directed towards the object of your sexual arousal, the perception of the arousings stimulus. 18:10.119 --> 18:13.824 [SPEAKER_04]: And obviously in the case of porn, that's not your partner, that's away from your partner. 18:14.424 --> 18:21.313 [SPEAKER_04]: So the way that I kind of frame it sometimes for people is that you can always think of sexual arousal like a magnet. 18:22.728 --> 18:33.621 [SPEAKER_04]: And if it's kind of being pointed towards porn or anybody else that's not your partner for that matter, it will pull you towards those people. 18:34.262 --> 18:39.168 [SPEAKER_04]: And therefore away from your partner, whereas we found on the opposite right directed towards your partner. 18:39.769 --> 18:44.734 [SPEAKER_04]: And it'll actually draw you towards them, which is obviously what people want in a romantic relationship. 18:45.235 --> 18:51.823 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm so curious from your perspective with the research you've done. 18:51.989 --> 19:05.974 [SPEAKER_02]: pornography cheating is watching pornography cheating and we have a response to that that we've shared but I would be curious to know how you would respond to that with this idea of connection and disconnection what your thoughts are there. 19:06.836 --> 19:08.479 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. 19:08.780 --> 19:21.275 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, certainly, I would have a lot of partners that would be very much arguing that watching porn is cheating and they're dealing with the potential trauma as a result. 19:22.416 --> 19:28.083 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's very, very real and I certainly don't want to take away from that at all. 19:29.424 --> 19:31.767 [SPEAKER_04]: I would be suggesting that if you are not 19:32.320 --> 19:49.050 [SPEAKER_04]: any time you are throwing in your efforts, your energies, your attention, your focus, your time into things that are not going to be good for the relationship, then in some way you're doing the relationship with the service, absolutely. 19:49.732 --> 19:52.236 [SPEAKER_04]: And if those things are things that 19:52.520 --> 20:01.333 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, in your understanding of your relationship should be kind of solely for your relationship, I like your sexual system, right? 20:01.353 --> 20:08.944 [SPEAKER_04]: If you go, you know, I wouldn't want my sexual system directed towards anybody else, like because that's unique for us, like that's why we're in this relationship. 20:09.725 --> 20:12.629 [SPEAKER_04]: Then if you watch him porn, you're doing that. 20:13.551 --> 20:17.937 [SPEAKER_04]: So absolutely I think in those instances, it would be a king teaching. 20:18.727 --> 20:24.176 [SPEAKER_04]: And to give a comparison, maybe, just for those who don't uncomfortable about that response, maybe. 20:24.637 --> 20:30.827 [SPEAKER_04]: So let's say there's a couple where one of them has a very close emotional connection with some of the opposite sex. 20:31.408 --> 20:35.675 [SPEAKER_04]: They're at a sexual couple, and they share a lot. 20:36.036 --> 20:36.216 [SPEAKER_04]: Right? 20:36.236 --> 20:37.458 [SPEAKER_04]: They share their feelings. 20:37.518 --> 20:40.583 [SPEAKER_04]: They spend a lot of time talking and connect in, whatnot, 20:42.200 --> 20:48.022 [SPEAKER_04]: that to some people will be okay, you know, the other person will feel okay with that. 20:48.945 --> 20:53.020 [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't necessarily mean it's not having a negative impact on the relationship. 20:53.185 --> 20:58.957 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's that's the other thing like whether we call up cheating or not, that doesn't mean it's not having a negative impact on the relationship. 20:59.739 --> 21:14.029 [SPEAKER_04]: In the same way as that emotional connection with somebody when, you know, ideally we want that emotional connection with your partner is possibly having a negative impact on us, without even realizing it, even if even if 21:14.009 --> 21:16.011 [SPEAKER_04]: the partner doesn't have an issue with it. 21:16.471 --> 21:21.616 [SPEAKER_04]: And I see that a lot as well where couples come in and they go, well, everybody uses bull and that kind of thing. 21:22.057 --> 21:24.259 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I can't be upset at them for it, can I? 21:24.479 --> 21:27.863 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, well, you know, it doesn't bother me kind of thing. 21:27.883 --> 21:32.167 [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't mean that it's not actually pulling you away from your partner. 21:32.507 --> 21:42.717 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would love to just for anyone who feels like maybe porn hasn't really affected their relationship, what are some of those things that they 21:43.034 --> 21:43.877 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. 21:43.917 --> 21:52.588 [SPEAKER_04]: So essentially what we found with my research and that doesn't mean there's not other things there, but these are the things that we saw play out with couples. 21:54.020 --> 22:06.975 [SPEAKER_04]: When you use porn, the more aroused you are by the more often you are aroused by the more likely you are to pay attention to attractive alternatives. 22:07.356 --> 22:10.539 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's a technical term for other people that aren't your partner. 22:11.180 --> 22:21.512 [SPEAKER_04]: The more likely you are to see those people as viable options. 22:22.724 --> 22:30.678 [SPEAKER_04]: The more likely you are to engage in fidelity, surprise, give them those first to I just mentioned. 22:31.640 --> 22:33.563 [SPEAKER_04]: So straight away, sexually, we know that. 22:34.185 --> 22:38.813 [SPEAKER_04]: We also know you're more likely to sexually objectify other people that are your partner. 22:39.234 --> 22:46.707 [SPEAKER_04]: The outside of this sexual component, though you're actually more likely to engage in destructive conflict. 22:46.872 --> 22:47.814 [SPEAKER_04]: with your partner. 22:48.355 --> 22:51.100 [SPEAKER_04]: You're more likely to be kind of aggressive and domineering. 22:51.741 --> 22:59.857 [SPEAKER_04]: And again, that's not that's not about a content thing that's just by virtue of like there's a disconnection process going on here. 23:00.518 --> 23:04.746 [SPEAKER_04]: You're more likely to neglect your partner's feelings and needs. 23:05.789 --> 23:08.212 [SPEAKER_04]: Those things are obviously outside of the bedroom. 23:09.113 --> 23:14.779 [SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing sexual per se about those things, but that is one of the things that we found. 23:14.819 --> 23:34.362 [SPEAKER_04]: And so we actually, we did this really cool study, which is yet to be published, but hopefully in the not too distant future, where essentially we were able to, given all of the stats that we were able to come up with in the analyses that we ran, we did something called a causal mediation analysis. 23:34.628 --> 23:44.622 [SPEAKER_04]: where essentially we can, because of what we do with the stats behind the scenes, can replicate an experiment. 23:44.737 --> 23:46.639 [SPEAKER_04]: that we couldn't possibly run in the real world. 23:47.821 --> 23:49.283 [SPEAKER_04]: We were able to go, okay. 23:49.323 --> 24:02.439 [SPEAKER_04]: So if we increase people's arousal to porn by XML on this scale, what happens at the next time point to their engagement in these relationship disconnection processes. 24:03.079 --> 24:13.292 [SPEAKER_04]: And then what happens at a later time point following that to their relationship well being overall, so their relationship quality and stability and sexual satisfaction. 24:13.272 --> 24:18.878 [SPEAKER_04]: And what we found is that you increased that corner hours of a baseline. 24:19.280 --> 24:31.175 [SPEAKER_04]: A month later, there is an increase in relationship disconnection processes, but one that I just mentioned, and then, a month after that, there is a decrease in relationship well-being. 24:32.056 --> 24:48.797 [SPEAKER_04]: So this causes this, causes that over time, and because of, yeah, this, it's just cool analyses and the way that it's able to control for so many different variables, I can't remember 24:48.777 --> 24:57.113 [SPEAKER_04]: um uh you're able to kind of say with some level of confidence that this caused this which caused that. 24:58.396 --> 25:08.676 [SPEAKER_04]: Actually an increase in point arousal increases your relationship disconnection processes are engaging those behaviours which will have a flow on effect to your relationship will 25:09.078 --> 25:20.436 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is so important because so many people think it's the disconnection, their relationship, that drives them to pornography in the first place because, you know, well, they don't, my partner doesn't want to be intimate with me. 25:20.556 --> 25:22.500 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll seek it out somewhere else. 25:22.920 --> 25:28.349 [SPEAKER_02]: So that for many people is the, the reason they believe they're consuming pornography in the first place. 25:28.429 --> 25:34.579 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's just interesting to see that actually it's kind of a cyclical process, but. 25:34.559 --> 25:40.595 [SPEAKER_02]: But certainly that consumption is fueling this disconnection, which is just keeping us in that cycle. 25:41.477 --> 25:42.480 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. 25:43.863 --> 25:44.485 [SPEAKER_04]: And 25:45.207 --> 26:15.012 [SPEAKER_04]: it's true that it can go the other way and it's not something that I looked at in my research per se as to like how does the relationship well being being not great feed into porn arousal for instance but it certainly something that we kind of considered and put out there as yeah absolutely that's a viable thing as well and it is something that I see in my practice when things you know people come in and they go you know like I wasn't using porn at all 26:14.992 --> 26:25.356 [SPEAKER_04]: So, it's possible it can absolutely happen, you know, the other way, but that doesn't take the way from the fact, but yes, it then just builds on the disconnection and doesn't make it better. 26:25.808 --> 26:26.128 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 26:26.529 --> 26:32.637 [SPEAKER_02]: And also, you know, really taking that one step further to say, okay, well, if you stopped having sex, why did you stop having sex? 26:32.697 --> 26:36.442 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, because there was some disconnection in the first place. 26:36.462 --> 26:44.473 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's really going back to this idea that that you said many times relationships are either your actions are moving you toward connection or toward disconnection. 26:44.513 --> 26:46.315 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, um, 26:46.295 --> 26:53.223 [SPEAKER_02]: If we keep building on the disconnection and getting further and further, then we'll find ourselves in that very disconnected place. 26:53.783 --> 27:10.041 [SPEAKER_02]: And when we look at what we know about the way pornography affects the brain, with a compulsive habit, with frequent consumption, it's often those watching pornography will need more often and a more hardcore version of it to kind of get that same. 27:10.021 --> 27:13.107 [SPEAKER_02]: gratification or that same arousal in the brain. 27:13.147 --> 27:24.047 [SPEAKER_02]: And so with that escalating and then this continued behavior, feeling this disconnection, it's certainly, as you mentioned, harming the relationship. 27:24.432 --> 27:24.732 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 27:25.013 --> 27:28.677 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just adding more pain on me in some respects, right? 27:28.697 --> 27:32.041 [SPEAKER_04]: In the same way as, you know, you're struggling to emotionally connect. 27:32.701 --> 27:34.904 [SPEAKER_04]: So let's just, you know, get smashed. 27:36.045 --> 27:38.949 [SPEAKER_04]: And that will help me kind of with my emotions. 27:38.969 --> 27:43.794 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, sure, it will help you in that moment with your emotions, but it will not help you connection over time. 27:43.854 --> 27:47.959 [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, it's just adding more issues to the relationship, not less. 27:48.631 --> 27:49.012 [SPEAKER_02]: great. 27:50.016 --> 27:58.185 [SPEAKER_02]: When someone starts to recognize that there is that disconnection in their relationship, what are some of the first steps they can take to reverse that? 27:58.672 --> 28:11.404 [SPEAKER_04]: I mentioned before talking and it's the first thing that I would be starting with talking to your partner about how you feel, in fact, that you are feeling disconnected in the first place. 28:11.724 --> 28:13.866 [SPEAKER_04]: First step, 100%. 28:14.627 --> 28:18.991 [SPEAKER_04]: The second thing and this is like, okay, talk to you partner. 28:19.031 --> 28:20.032 [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes that's enough. 28:21.674 --> 28:26.078 [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't realise that you can come up with kind of a solution to reconnect. 28:26.818 --> 28:28.560 [SPEAKER_04]: If you 28:28.540 --> 28:32.931 [SPEAKER_04]: uh not sure what the heck to do about it though, right? 28:32.951 --> 28:34.876 [SPEAKER_04]: You share it with them and they go everyone now what? 28:35.617 --> 28:38.685 [SPEAKER_04]: That's where I would suggest like, um therapy. 28:38.918 --> 29:06.732 [SPEAKER_04]: And that might be individual therapy if you feel like a lot of it is kind of on you and kind of your own experiences, like maybe you struggle with, you know, emotional regulation or emotional expression, maybe you've got a maybe you've got a really long standing compulsive behavior going on here to pull on or something else, or maybe it's a couple therapy when you go actually need of us really know how to do this, we just want to work on kind of the dynamic. 29:08.078 --> 29:09.941 [SPEAKER_04]: and how we can reconnect. 29:10.883 --> 29:12.145 [SPEAKER_04]: I see it happen all the time. 29:12.285 --> 29:13.548 [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's definitely possible. 29:14.048 --> 29:16.393 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just going to be willing to actually do the work. 29:16.873 --> 29:17.434 [SPEAKER_04]: Do it takes. 29:18.316 --> 29:19.218 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 29:19.238 --> 29:29.175 [SPEAKER_02]: In your research, are there any specific statistics or measurements that we haven't spoken about yet that you think are really interesting that you want to be sure to share today? 29:30.033 --> 29:30.674 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. 29:30.734 --> 29:52.041 [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, we've shared about kind of what happens, or what the research found as far as when there's porn involved, and the disconnection and the impact negative impact on relationship will be, but what we also tested at the same time was what happens when we increase arousal to your partner. 29:52.021 --> 29:58.047 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, like this isn't about how the sexual system kind of goes wrong and it's all about the bad stuff. 29:58.067 --> 30:03.733 [SPEAKER_04]: This is like, well, what, what is it, what is it kind of intended for and how does that play out in relationships too? 30:04.534 --> 30:19.429 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and obviously relational creatures and so we, we had to look at that and how that impacts so increasing sexual arousal 30:19.409 --> 30:36.135 [SPEAKER_04]: and then a month after that, an increase in relationship will be, and again, the same kind of definitions for those first two, but those relationship connection processes, this is interesting because again, stuff in the bedroom and stuff out of the bedroom. 30:36.115 --> 30:52.198 [SPEAKER_04]: So some of the stuff in the bedroom, so you're the frequency with which you had sex, the pleasure with which you had sex, the extent to which you are thinking about the other person and their experience of sex. 30:53.079 --> 31:00.770 [SPEAKER_04]: So what we call like communal sexual communal strength or some of the sexual kind of aspects that were part of that relationship connection process. 31:01.270 --> 31:05.937 [SPEAKER_04]: But on top of that, your capacity to engage in constructive conflict 31:06.018 --> 31:22.013 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you're a willingness to compromise your perception of the other person, and that might sound like an outcome rather than a process per se, but what we think about our partner is actually a process. 31:22.073 --> 31:25.396 [SPEAKER_04]: It's something that we can change or, you know, for the better or for the worse. 31:25.937 --> 31:30.181 [SPEAKER_04]: What you found is that the more or more aroused, you are sure you find them more sexually attractive. 31:30.201 --> 31:35.586 [SPEAKER_04]: We found that, absolutely. 31:36.173 --> 31:54.216 [SPEAKER_04]: and also intelligent like this is this is having an overall positive impact on how you view your partner your thoughts about your partner and then yes you're more likely to want to spend time together and to meet their needs, be kind to them, etc. 31:54.196 --> 32:06.535 [SPEAKER_04]: a number of in-bedroom, out-of-bedroom processes that are all leading to connection, trying to maintain enhanced that relationship with them, that unity of aspect. 32:07.016 --> 32:10.862 [SPEAKER_04]: That's it played out when it came to the steps very much. 32:10.922 --> 32:14.888 [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, the more you're doing those things, the better your relationship is in the end. 32:15.273 --> 32:36.370 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is so great to have research on that because so often we're focused on these are the harms and this is the negative spiral that can put your relationship in, but it's so nice to be able to say these are very real tangible ways that not consuming pornography can help your relationship and strengthen your relationship and your connection, which is really wonderful to have. 32:36.738 --> 32:37.179 [SPEAKER_04]: That's it. 32:37.199 --> 32:38.081 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not all bad news. 32:39.244 --> 32:39.484 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 32:39.584 --> 32:50.649 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm certainly some people depending on kind of what they hear me talk about, other in a therapy context outside of that, like like like the impression that I'm like anti-sex. 32:51.551 --> 32:51.912 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 32:51.892 --> 33:12.735 [SPEAKER_04]: Far from it, like sex is a fantastic, wonderful thing that so often, I mean, I do sex therapy with people trying to help them have better sex, and that is not just because sex is good in love itself, but because it's just so fundamental to um, relationship obeying um, which is yeah, what we're all about. 33:13.272 --> 33:24.552 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we often say about our organization, obviously we're specifically focused on educating and raising awareness on the harmful effects of pornography, but we often say we're anti-pornography because we're pro sex. 33:24.993 --> 33:37.795 [SPEAKER_02]: It's because we're pro healthy intimacy and healthy relationships that we are anti-pornography because we know the ways that it harms relationships and more and more research as yours has just continues to validate. 33:37.775 --> 33:42.223 [SPEAKER_02]: But we've known from research and personal experiences for decades. 33:42.303 --> 33:46.570 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, pre-internet, but especially in this digital age that we're in today. 33:46.610 --> 33:49.676 [SPEAKER_02]: People are experiencing really significant negative effects from this. 33:50.176 --> 34:01.997 [SPEAKER_02]: And there are wonderful positive effects of overcoming this and not allowing or not having pornography be something that has control within your life and influence within your life. 34:02.718 --> 34:03.259 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 34:04.100 --> 34:22.527 [SPEAKER_02]: And we say that with all of the empathy and compassion for how difficult a struggle with pornography can be certainly, which is something we also speak about often, and know that there are resources available to those struggling or partners of those struggling as well to make sure that everyone is taking care of in the ways that they need to be throughout these journeys. 34:23.228 --> 34:24.570 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely, absolutely. 34:24.590 --> 34:27.154 [SPEAKER_04]: And maybe just building on that, 34:28.282 --> 34:55.150 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, there are resources out there to help those people that are struggling in this space and more than that to kind of go a little bit further and go this in the same way as it can happen with other forms of infidelity this like identifying this and working through it in a relationship can actually be the catalyst for a much greater relationship than you even thought was possible. 34:55.788 --> 35:06.022 [SPEAKER_04]: The amount of times that somebody has like a couple has come in and gone like our relationship is better now than it was prior to the affair, better than it ever has been. 35:06.062 --> 35:15.455 [SPEAKER_04]: Even though there's this massive hurt and struggle and we've got to overcome all of that in process all of that, that's all true, like it's not to take away from that at all. 35:15.895 --> 35:22.504 [SPEAKER_04]: But to say like there is, this isn't just like so we'll get back to baseline kind of thing like there is an opportunity here to be 35:22.484 --> 35:33.418 [SPEAKER_04]: more intimate, more known, more seen than ever before, if you're able to make the most of those resources in, like I said, do the way. 35:34.019 --> 35:39.967 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's something we hear often from couples who have overcome this together, individuals who've experienced that within their relationship. 35:40.588 --> 35:49.960 [SPEAKER_02]: While also noting, we've certainly heard from individuals who disinfected their relationship, 35:49.940 --> 36:16.318 [SPEAKER_02]: pursue healing or both partners were unwilling to do the work in the same way whatever that looks like um and to know that that is also okay right there's not a right or wrong way for anyone to navigate this but certainly noting that um peeling back those layers and having honesty can on you know finally in transparency on everything can certainly be that fun foundational starting point to build a stronger relationship within 36:16.940 --> 36:17.260 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 36:17.440 --> 36:17.821 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. 36:17.841 --> 36:18.321 [SPEAKER_04]: Very true. 36:18.762 --> 36:43.386 [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I mean, we're wounded in relationships and we're healed in relationships and whether that's that relationship, like I say, you know, it might not be depending on the circumstance, but there's so much goodness that can come from, you know, starting the journey and working through it with someone, be that a therapist or your partner or 36:43.923 --> 36:44.664 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 36:44.685 --> 36:47.250 [SPEAKER_02]: Can I ask you about non romantic relationships? 36:47.871 --> 37:00.396 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you see in how those relationships are affected friendships, parent, child relationships, you know, other types of relationships that are non romantic, how are those impacted by pornography? 37:01.287 --> 37:19.515 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so disclaimer that, you know, I didn't research this at all, so this is more, you know, just anecdotally from my clinical experience rather than anything that I looked at with the research, but I think there is definitely a tendency towards 37:19.782 --> 37:35.642 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, what I often see with individuals that are using this, so they're not in a relationship, they just come in and they know they're struggling with it and they're trying to do something about it or they don't know and they're here for something else and we happen to go, oh wow, use a fair bit of porn, okay, like what's going on there. 37:36.583 --> 37:48.237 [SPEAKER_04]: So often it's been used as a coping mechanism, an emotion regulation tool, which you know, it's a very powerful one of those version 37:50.309 --> 37:54.958 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not helping people to learn how to regulate their emotions. 37:55.178 --> 37:57.924 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just medicating it, essentially. 37:58.144 --> 38:06.220 [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't actually build tolerance to be able to sit with or healthily express that emotion in any form of relationship. 38:06.240 --> 38:09.065 [SPEAKER_04]: Be that, you know, your siblings, your friends or your parents kind of thing. 38:10.268 --> 38:13.093 [SPEAKER_04]: It just kind of helps to numb. 38:13.073 --> 38:29.327 [SPEAKER_04]: And that in of itself is the root of so many relational difficulties with different people because either you're numbing and disconnected or when you're not able to do that you are totally dysregulated. 38:30.370 --> 38:32.753 [SPEAKER_04]: And so, not necessarily the nicest person to be around. 38:33.674 --> 38:39.461 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not super great for relationships, and you know, you just cannot handle anything emotional. 38:40.162 --> 38:42.345 [SPEAKER_04]: And so, I think it certainly plays in that sense. 38:42.986 --> 38:48.032 [SPEAKER_04]: It also plays in similar ways, like we spoke about those relationships, disconnection processes. 38:48.532 --> 38:54.640 [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, we're looking out in the context of those in relationships, but many of those things, 38:55.362 --> 39:01.574 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not necessarily unique to relationships like sexual justification of others, for instance. 39:02.796 --> 39:10.772 [SPEAKER_04]: It's very hard and I've had many people report this to me that it's very hard to have a good relationship with 39:11.022 --> 39:18.852 [SPEAKER_04]: Again, talking heterosexual people here with the opposite sex when you're undressing them in your mind, right? 39:18.872 --> 39:24.479 [SPEAKER_04]: When you're only see them for their sexual value and nothing else. 39:24.499 --> 39:25.561 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't see them as a person. 39:25.581 --> 39:34.893 [SPEAKER_04]: You see them as an object and that will impact your relationship with them, your capacity to connect with them, your capacity to love them, empathize with them, etc. 39:35.714 --> 39:36.034 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 39:37.634 --> 39:38.535 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing that. 39:38.875 --> 39:49.725 [SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else from your anecdotal experience working with so many clients or perspective that you have through this research and the work that you've done that you'd like to share before we wrap up today? 39:52.767 --> 40:06.139 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there are a lot of people who probably the biggest conversation that I have with people in this space outside of what we've already spoken about today. 40:07.739 --> 40:12.698 [SPEAKER_04]: think that their ponies is relevant to them and to health or their relationships. 40:13.641 --> 40:14.765 [SPEAKER_04]: I can't see the connection. 40:14.805 --> 40:17.034 [SPEAKER_04]: They don't see there's a problem where they think it's fine. 40:17.074 --> 40:18.981 [SPEAKER_04]: They don't think it's impacting them all those things. 40:20.024 --> 40:28.896 [SPEAKER_04]: to those people, again, based on the research, like my research was not looking at what people thought about how it impacted on their relationship. 40:29.016 --> 40:35.125 [SPEAKER_04]: When you look at that research and there is literature out there that looks at, you know, people's perceptions of the impact of porn. 40:36.266 --> 40:44.057 [SPEAKER_04]: Surprise surprise, people don't think it's a terrible thing for the most part when they're using it and they don't want to stop using it. 40:44.037 --> 40:48.223 [SPEAKER_04]: that would be a whole lot of cognitive decisions going on there if they did. 40:48.283 --> 40:52.770 [SPEAKER_04]: So they start to go, hang on people, people don't think there's anything wrong with this. 40:53.371 --> 41:03.987 [SPEAKER_04]: Well yeah, that's true, people don't often think there's anything wrong with this until they experience the impact of it and usually that's in a relationship context to some extent. 41:03.967 --> 41:11.536 [SPEAKER_04]: all because it's just gotten so extreme that they sound to go, oh, or they listen to a podcast like this and go, oh yeah, actually maybe this isn't affecting me. 41:12.958 --> 41:20.107 [SPEAKER_04]: But one thing that I challenge people to do when they're in that circumstance is to try stop using porn. 41:21.529 --> 41:24.613 [SPEAKER_04]: And because most of them haven't, why would they? 41:24.673 --> 41:29.839 [SPEAKER_04]: If there's not a problem and they like it and you know, they've, you know, 41:31.490 --> 41:35.614 [SPEAKER_04]: The amount of people that I've said that to, and they've come back and gone, I couldn't do it. 41:38.017 --> 41:43.162 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's clearly having an impact on you if you can't live without this thing. 41:44.703 --> 41:45.004 [SPEAKER_04]: Why not? 41:45.384 --> 41:45.925 [SPEAKER_04]: What's going on? 41:46.846 --> 41:47.887 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's address that. 41:48.587 --> 41:53.052 [SPEAKER_04]: And so if you don't think that this is impacting it, or trying to live it out of it. 41:53.072 --> 42:00.079 [SPEAKER_04]: And if your life doesn't change it, or maybe it's maybe your, you know, maybe you're right, maybe it's not impacting you. 42:00.295 --> 42:15.799 [SPEAKER_04]: That, again, that doesn't mean it's not impacting other people and, you know, they sound that impact of, you know, porn on society, et cetera, like, why do it then if it's not really having an impact positive on negative, but what you'll probably find is when you stop, you'll start to notice things change, right? 42:15.819 --> 42:19.384 [SPEAKER_04]: And either you'll really struggle or you'll go out. 42:19.364 --> 42:41.389 [SPEAKER_04]: like I'm so much more free, I have so much more capacity to think about stuff, I'm more productive at work, you know, I'm more attracted to my partner, like wow, where having such a great relationship now, the proof will be in the body, so go get the evidence kind of foreign against, but you never get the evidence if you don't try. 42:41.470 --> 42:44.173 [SPEAKER_04]: And it was actually, it's a bit of a bug bearer mine. 42:44.233 --> 43:06.381 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it's going to be a bit geeky here, but coming from a research perspective, when you're looking at these studies that kind of try and assess what porn addiction is and how pozlin it is and whatnot, usually those studies are based on people reporting how much they struggle when they're not using porn. 43:07.677 --> 43:12.608 [SPEAKER_04]: but it presupposes it assumes that you've actually tried to stop using porn. 43:14.022 --> 43:23.672 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think the numbers would be far different to what they find, because they find that the levels of pornography addiction or problematic pornography use are quite low in the general population. 43:24.914 --> 43:29.539 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think if the whole population tried to stop, those numbers would be far higher. 43:30.440 --> 43:34.925 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just if you haven't stopped or then I would never problem, that's what everybody says. 43:35.986 --> 43:37.988 [SPEAKER_04]: So go and try and see how it goes here. 43:38.896 --> 43:58.145 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's great advice and certainly what you've mentioned, we have heard from many people how their lives have improved and how they have felt so much more free without pornography, having so much control in their lives and having healthier coping mechanisms for emotions and, you know, all of those things. 43:58.425 --> 44:03.132 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, noting we also know how difficult it can be to overcome a struggle with pornography. 44:04.495 --> 44:05.357 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. 44:05.377 --> 44:08.143 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not to say stop using and you'll be able to stop using. 44:08.183 --> 44:15.038 [SPEAKER_04]: No worries, and I won't have an impact, but stop using your workout, whether you can do it easily or not, and if you can't, will then this help. 44:15.920 --> 44:16.742 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. 44:16.942 --> 44:19.909 [SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else that you wanted to share that we haven't spoken about yet? 44:20.329 --> 44:22.875 [SPEAKER_02]: Before I ask you, our final question about hope. 44:23.598 --> 44:26.385 [SPEAKER_04]: for final questions. 44:26.405 --> 44:36.190 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you hope our listeners take away from your research and from this conversation when it comes to building healthy and connected relationships? 44:37.553 --> 45:05.518 [SPEAKER_04]: So the answer's kind of too old here, the first part is that if pornography use or any kind of sexual acting out behavior is present in your life, in your relationship, then it is probably having an impact on that feeling of disconnection between the two of you, or even if you don't even notice that there's a feeling of disconnection, it's still probably there that you're just not picking up on. 45:06.528 --> 45:12.637 [SPEAKER_04]: whether you realize it or not, whether your partner has an issue with it or not, whether you have an issue with it or not. 45:12.878 --> 45:20.570 [SPEAKER_04]: So give it a try, not, and again, the proof will be in the putting, get the evidence for against that. 45:22.152 --> 45:24.756 [SPEAKER_04]: And then the second kind of aspect to that is, 45:25.445 --> 45:53.410 [SPEAKER_04]: I would hope that again you're taking that sex is a really great thing, this sexual system is actually super duper powerful when it comes to relationship well-being, it's just going to be directed in the right way and so we want to kind of turn that magnet back towards our partner and make sure that you know everything within us is being kind of funneled in that direction so that we can make the most about relationship it's absolutely 100% worth it. 45:54.098 --> 45:57.287 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well thank you so much for joining Nick. 45:57.368 --> 46:02.383 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so grateful we were able to connect with you and share this conversation with our listeners. 46:02.483 --> 46:06.334 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to share if anyone wants to learn more about your research or your work? 46:06.354 --> 46:07.939 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to share where they can do that? 46:09.252 --> 46:11.975 [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, research. 46:11.995 --> 46:20.785 [SPEAKER_04]: So look, just googling my name will come up with some of the published studies that don't already out there as far as other resources, et cetera. 46:21.425 --> 46:36.822 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, googling my name will also come up with, you know, my my practice details, et cetera, so they can contact me through email and whatnot if they would like additional resources that kind of thing. 46:36.842 --> 46:38.584 [SPEAKER_04]: But you'll 46:40.083 --> 46:44.628 [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you've got to tell you as well. 46:45.452 --> 46:46.397 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. 46:48.942 --> 46:51.665 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 46:52.265 --> 46:55.168 [SPEAKER_00]: Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight The New Drug. 46:55.728 --> 47:12.664 [SPEAKER_00]: Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. 47:13.205 --> 47:16.468 [SPEAKER_00]: Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. 47:16.448 --> 47:20.137 [SPEAKER_00]: If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. 47:20.578 --> 47:21.701 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening. 47:22.222 --> 47:29.580 [SPEAKER_00]: We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.