[SPEAKER_02]: and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today's guest is an American writer living in Vienna, Austria.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is known for her New York Times model of essay, two kisses we never talked about.
[SPEAKER_02]: As part of extensive book research, she left her career as a pastry chef and became a receptionist at a traditional hotel.
[SPEAKER_02]: She has the full support of the real hotel Orient and has been granted access to all of its rooms, even the hidden ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Murder at the hotel Orient is her debut novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's a bit of flat copy for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't be shy darling, ring the bell.
[SPEAKER_02]: In modern Vienna, American sterling Lockwood is the loyal concierge at the infamous Hotel Orient, where cameras are banned, aliases are required,
[SPEAKER_02]: After a double murder, Sterling must turn detective to clear her name, but uncovering the truth will require breaking the Oriental sacred code of secrecy while keeping a few secrets of her own.
[SPEAKER_02]: For those of you who aren't watching on YouTube, I'm showing you a very battered, very lived in copy of this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know there's a lot of people out there who think it's sacrilege and a gossiping at how I could
[SPEAKER_02]: Miss handle the book like this, but this is what a book looks like to me once I've loved it and I've loved it and I've loved it and let it live in me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will link to it on a book shop or a clear page.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Alessandra is holding a much neat cover.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, I love, I love both covers, they're stunning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you guys must watch on YouTube so you can see them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I loved this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to dive into this book as much as we possibly can.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to go through this whole journey with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: From when you got the idea to write this book to when it's sold.
[SPEAKER_02]: Take us through everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think we have time for everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a great story, but it really begins in one of the worst weeks of my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: fire in German dumped via text and then rejected from grad school by ghosting via email.
[SPEAKER_03]: So things were not looking great for me in Austria when you lose a job.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the first time I really got fired from a job.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you lose a job, you still work two weeks.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I had my last shift.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I decided to go out on a high note.
[SPEAKER_03]: I put on a cute dress, this polka dress, a kind of demanded trouble.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was a cute line cook, and I was like, baby, maybe I'll get some luck on the way out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did not get the line cook, but I got home and I thought this dress needs more fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I went out to the low spar, which is an American style cocktail bar in Vienna.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had this really wild evening
[SPEAKER_03]: weird characters.
[SPEAKER_03]: And at the end of that night, this theater director in his 70s said, you know, if I were a younger man, I would invite you to the hotel orient.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I assume that he assumed I didn't know what that means.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I said, first of all, I'm assuming you think, I don't know what that means because I'm American, but I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: So how dare you?
[SPEAKER_03]: And second of all, would you please take me?
[SPEAKER_03]: I won't have sex with you, but would you take me?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he really thought that he would stand a chance once we got there and all of the romance took over.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was like, you know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: Fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why not live a little?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in my 70s.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we took a taxi over to the hotel or any hell in my hand the whole way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we walked in and I had heard about the legend of this place for a long time, but I'd never been brave enough to go because I knew that they weren't very welcome to outsiders or if you're too curious.
[SPEAKER_03]: And while he booked the room and it was the room I dreamed of seeing, which was the Arabian night's suite.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just kind of took a look around.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we went into the Arabian night's suite, which is modeled after the book, and it has this mural of Shahirazad and this big marble bathroom.
[SPEAKER_03]: with a domed ceiling.
[SPEAKER_03]: It looks like the night sky and I took off my stockings.
[SPEAKER_03]: He took off his socks and rolled up his pants and we soaked their feet in the tub and he told me legends of old Vienna and the hotel and said the last time he'd been there was 20 years earlier and it was exactly the same and we had this really interesting night eventually like he put a real move on me
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm out of there because I realized when we checked in no one took our names and this guy could have murdered me, taken my wallet and walked out of the hotel and I would have just been a nameless body in a room and you know, that would be the last anybody ever heard of me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I realized I had to go, I grabbed my shoes and my stockings and I ran into the hallway and I stopped at the front desk to chat with the concierge while I put my shoes on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember, I said, I had a great time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't sleep with him.
[SPEAKER_03]: She looked at me like sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she wouldn't have cared, but I think my, my protestations just made it sound like I was lying.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and I, I said, you must love working here.
[SPEAKER_03]: She smiled really big and said, I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, you must see a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she got more serious and she was like, I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I left.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the sun was rising.
[SPEAKER_03]: I fell asleep and I slept four hours and I woke up with a champagne headache and the idea for a book amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: You never know where these things are coming from and this is what I always say to people to be a writer you need to live.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to go out into the world, you need to interact with the world, you need to get messy with the world because this is where some of your best ideas will come from.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so how long did it take you to write this book?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was this the first book you ever wrote?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then after that I want to find out like you're getting your agents, getting your publisher, take us through that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the very first draft of the book took me 13 months to write.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, at the time, I had just been fired and I assumed I've been rejected from this grad school program.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been working for years to get into because the acceptance date had come.
[SPEAKER_03]: and came and went and I didn't hear anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I sat with the idea for a few days because I had never written a novel before.
[SPEAKER_03]: Kept a blog, I did live storytelling and poetry and I did professional storytelling but as a side project never is a means worth of income.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'd never written anything long for or that wasn't autobiographical in some way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So after sitting on the idea for a few days, what I actually did was I called my father who is an Italian-American accountant and he's very tough love.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I need to just sit down.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to tell you something and you're gonna be mad at me.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was like, oh God, what did you do?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, everything's fine, but I need you to listen to the whole story.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, I need your advice.
[SPEAKER_03]: and then I said, there's this love hotel in Vienna that I went to the other night with a stranger.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fine, it's fine, don't worry.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's so annoying.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'm telling him, like, and I realized it could have been murder.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the place feels like walking into an Agatha Christie.
[SPEAKER_03]: because your cell phones are banned and the entire place is like a time machine.
[SPEAKER_03]: They actually have rotary phones and all the rooms in a switchboard system.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I explained just the initial seed of the idea which was a murder in the hotel because it solves the cell phone problem and would feel like an agathochristy mystery could be set today.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then my dad got very quiet and he said eventually start saving your receipts because they're going to be a tax deduction, which was his way of saying he believed in me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So with his blessing, I took my mother died when I was 19 and she had life insurance policy that left me something that I'd been very careful not to use up and this was what I used it on.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I, with my dad's blessing, took some time before jumping into a new job and tried to write the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And because I'd never written a novel, the first thing I did was for about a month, I spent time just reading how to write a novel.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was the following week I was sitting
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was sitting at the counter writing the character sketch for who would be Fernando, who is the bell hob and I think a character that everybody loves in the book and I showed it, I showed the paragraph to the bartender.
[SPEAKER_03]: And while I was sitting there, I got an email that I'd been accepted to the grad school program.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I asked the bartender, I was like, do you have champagne?
[SPEAKER_03]: He said, no, we per seco, why?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I guess, I guess I'm celebrating.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got into that grad school program and he said, I thought you were writing a book, and he poured himself a little per seco.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you gonna go?
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you, he said, are you gonna go?
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you were writing a book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, yeah, I thought I was writing a book too.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I guess I should go, you know, I've worked for this for years.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we clean glasses and he said,
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you're gonna write the book, so yeah, I did it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was the biggest risk I ever took.
[SPEAKER_03]: I threw away, or I asked them to hold my spot for one year.
[SPEAKER_03]: I gave myself a year to try and get it together.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when that year came up, I still didn't have an agent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I still hadn't quite finished the book, but I had just published an essay in the New York Times.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I felt confident enough at that point to take the risk, but it was the biggest gamble I've ever taken in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, how do I love all of that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it that the essay in the modern love did that make it easier for you down the line?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you find an agent or not really?
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I really thought it might, but my modern love essay, which I'm very proud of, is autobiographical, it's closer to the work I've been doing as a storyteller and it's obviously a more moving subject matter.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think murder at the hotel arrange is what I call a spicy who done it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's deeply on serious.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's humorous, it's over the top.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's reality amplified and put in a vintage soft focus glow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the modern love piece did earn me one agent who requested the full.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when I sent it, it was A and early draft.
[SPEAKER_03]: But B, I think if you came into the project from reading the essay,
[SPEAKER_03]: The book was always going to disappoint because the essay was seven and a half years of a marriage boiled down into 1,500 words and confronting mortality and what it means to love someone and be married.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it was a huge thing in a small amount and I do think math of has some things to say under all the humor, but it's a very different beast.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I found as well that later on had a wave of requests before I got an agent and many of them requested, I think because they were curious because there'd been such a big wave and a lot of them started by reading my essay and any agent who emailed me and said, my God, I've just read your essay, ultimately didn't sign me because they were expecting something different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is interesting how some time that works in your favorite and sometimes it actually works against you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so so when you landed your agent, what did that the club?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I finished the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: It took about 13 months and in that time I want to pitch prize the Bluepens Agency, pitch prize which gave me a half hour meeting with an agent I loved.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had entered the prize specifically because that agent was judging it.
[SPEAKER_03]: and she had been recommended to me as a potential match from the only writing course ever took which was a Curtis Brown crime writing class.
[SPEAKER_03]: which was taught by the SeamCon and then had a bunch of mentors who kind of managed the class.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Seam recorded the lectures.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the only writing class I've ever taken.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I met with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She believed in the project.
[SPEAKER_03]: She mentored it a bit on the way and took a peek at some of the drafts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And by the time the book was ready, she was pregnant and about to go on maternity leave.
[SPEAKER_03]: So,
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a heartbreaking moment, and I'd had some people who said they'd like to see it after the dragon's pen, pitch contest as well at Harrogate, where I got four yes votes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I sent it to them when I had earlier drafts, but I think I hadn't quite figured it out at the time, and it was actually your podcast,
[SPEAKER_03]: was part of the aha moment that really changed things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in summary, I had halfway through creating I had created about 30 agents.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had four full requests, one near miss with his agent who I adore and things just weren't quite clicking and I wasn't able to figure it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I said, okay, I'll take the 500 bucks I got for the modern law of essay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm, I decided to hire two editors just to look at the opening chapters because that agent had given me feedback that there were some character inconsistencies and I was looking and I could not see them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just wanted to be honest about this with the listeners.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do not think you need to hire an editor, but I hired one, her name was Sarah D'Sauza.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was amazing and I hired two.
[SPEAKER_03]: What she did was interrogate the opening chapters with the relentless curiosity of a toddler and point it out that the book was supposed to be modern with a golden age feel and because the setting is so old fashion and there are no phones.
[SPEAKER_03]: it was confusing because it felt historical, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that wasn't cheeky and different.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was actually just unclear to the reader.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was one change I made was I sign post that in the beginning that Sterling crosses off the date on a calendar that sits between a rotary phone and a typewriter, a Ryan Middle typewriter.
[SPEAKER_03]: And
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what happened was I sent it off to the editor and then a week and a half later I had a breakthrough and realized what I was doing wrong and I restructured the chapters by the time I got her notes back had a completely different structure and I had to look at her feedback fundamentally so that's my advice when taking feedback is don't focus on the small picture focus on the big picture, but the two points she made were this feels historical.
[SPEAKER_03]: I earth three points were this feels historical I want more and I put back a lot that I had cut out based on other readers who had looked at things or being told it was too slow.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had pretty much everything there in my drafts and I threw it back in and she said, why is Sterling my main character judging this couple for having in a fair?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's because I am judging them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I am anogamous and I think you should ideally not cheat on your partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are options.
[SPEAKER_03]: We live in a modern world.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are open relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think consent is important.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was judging the characters.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was so my worldview, I could not see it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Sterling is what I would call an unethically non-monogamous
[SPEAKER_03]: lust demon.
[SPEAKER_03]: So love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it definitely feels accurate.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've written it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she wouldn't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's her job to protect adulters.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's an anonymous love hotel.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the majority of the clientele who are going to be going there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so once you took your views out of it and made sure it was hers, then it felt more organic.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it was really just that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't change much of the rest of the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, because I tried to look for inconsistencies because the timing worked out that I won another pitch contest.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'd also been the aha moment I had was listening to the podcast, your podcast, and somebody was talking about how do you say it's like where you're meeting the pitch, does it?
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a phrase.
[SPEAKER_03]: that you're fulfilling the promise of the pitch to the reader and that really sat with me where I was like, what am I missing?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because the pitch was going over and winning contest after contest.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I realized that it wasn't going to be getting it on the head.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just restructured the chapter to add more curiosity seeds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Love that term.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's always on the podcast as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And basically, by having Fernanda, having one character come in and their conversation be interrupted by the action that happens so that it created some natural suspense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a little changes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it changed everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: After the pitch prize, I had a few requests.
[SPEAKER_03]: At the same time, my now agent, Harry Ellingworth reopened.
[SPEAKER_03]: And somebody slid into my DMs and was like, you should query this agent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, oh, he's on my list.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's right on my list top of the, thank you for letting me know he reopened.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had had, I think three requests at the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I said that in the first line of my email too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, great timing that you reopened.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've had a wave of requests.
[SPEAKER_03]: of a block, given the query letter, he requested it right away and I was shaking when that happened because I really wanted to work with him.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I knew it was a long shot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And suddenly the wave of requests got bigger and then I realized something was happening because I used to not get any responses and
[SPEAKER_03]: almost a hundred percent of the agents that I've reached out to were responding within hours.
[SPEAKER_03]: Suddenly, requesting it and then I started, I realized what was going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: I talked to my friend and at that time, I had been having such trouble querying.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd almost given up.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it seemed like it was happened and I had said, I'll send it off to this last wave of agents and if nothing happens, that's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to give up on the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: But everything was totally different this time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I sat down in over one day I queried all of the agents on my list because I just had a feeling that somebody was going to offer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I felt like you can't really query after you've had an offer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now is the time to reach out.
[SPEAKER_03]: So out of those 30, I think it's 30 queries.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had about 26 full requests at the end of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it turned into
[SPEAKER_03]: I had nine offers when I signed with Harry and then one came in after the deadline.
[SPEAKER_03]: and Harry was the last, he was one of the first people to request, but then it was fun in book fair and he got sick, and then he was like the last one to offer.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was glad I waited.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, it feels like it was completely meant to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to just touch quickly on the actual selling of the book to publishers, but then in our time, I want to really pick your brain about
[SPEAKER_02]: you have been with everything you've done since announcing the deal announcement like you have run this like a professional in terms of everything so I want to pick your brain about that but first tell us about the selling of the actual book to the publisher.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well actually that started before we sold it to the publisher and I really have to credit Harry for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a friend
[SPEAKER_03]: who had made a trailer for his book that was coming out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I really liked it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I, you know, I love doing creative things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I made a little trailer for murder at the hotel at war end.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I was proud of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I sent it to Harry and I said, what about I planned that we planned that I should go on some right after capital crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: because it would give me a chance to maybe talk to a few people in person before and that was really our last chance to go on sub in the summer because things shut down.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was a risk as well to take the book out in June because you're just at the end of that time and things can start dragging on and you lose momentum.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think we just had a feeling it would go fast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that was bold, but I guess we're right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I went to Capital Crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: I met some really lovely editors and one of them was just on your podcast, Leah Dora.
[SPEAKER_03]: I met her at Capital Crime.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's so nice and person.
[SPEAKER_03]: had this interesting weekend.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what I planned was that I know London trains get delayed all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I asked Harry, can I put this trailer out?
[SPEAKER_03]: And he sort of thought, this isn't really done.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this isn't really a thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he watched it and he was like, you know what, why don't we do it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do the thing that at that time was just not done because you're supposed to very quietly go on sub and say nothing about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, OK, let's put it out on the first morning of capital crime when everybody's trains are delayed and they're stuck waiting and scrolling on Twitter.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was very strategic about the timing of putting the trailer up.
[SPEAKER_03]: and we shared it and it seemed to go over quite well and I think my my now editor was already messaging Harry saying like you know send me a private message the second that you've sent out the submission because I want to jump on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that was great that he let me take the risk and he let me post a few graphics from sterling's perspective kind of in the lead up to the book going on submission and we talked about how and we did it all in character.
[SPEAKER_03]: that it would be a check-in to the hotel and that the reservation started on the date that we went on submission.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as well, also just I was being cheeky when I sent my agents the edited draft.
[SPEAKER_03]: I sent them a little invitation for a private tour of the hotel area because I like to do creative things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they love that so much that they asked to use that when we also went on submission.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I spent
[SPEAKER_03]: I worked until seven in the morning, customizing every invitation for each publisher so that it had their logo worked into the design because I decided to be very extra about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a paid off, everything I saw after you let me know that you had your book deal because we always say in the podcast, if you listen to the podcast, you land your deal, you have good news.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please let us know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, I started following you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was just amazing to see that the buzz you were building.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew it to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I knew it wasn't your publisher.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so much of you was coming through in that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, you are
[SPEAKER_02]: your greatest asset as an author.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have written this incredible, incredible book with these amazing characters.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're at the end of our time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't even gotten to read from the book guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: This book is mocked up like everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had killed myself laughing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've chuckled so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been sexy, it's been insane.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stooling is amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are so many characters here who are my favorites.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I was just like loving everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, okay, I think we've got like time for me to maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just funny lines like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, just like that said the Russian woman.
[SPEAKER_02]: The man immediately sped up, spring,
[SPEAKER_02]: It just needs to throw away lines that had me laughing and his whole, like, his whole, again idealizing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her voice was so tree-and-deep but loud, her entire personality was loud.
[SPEAKER_02]: Achso, he thought realising what was wrong with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was American, which was
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like these little bits in there, and the point of view when it comes to the detective, you know, we change POVs between her and the detective, and he begins with everything with soap, but I love how you build so much of the culture of the place into the book so that not only does the hotel become a character.
[SPEAKER_03]: Secting becomes character as well because we learned so much about this culture of this place and house constantly Googling is this place real is this place real where is this place where were you up from here today it was amazing the map and the locations are all real except for the swingers club I've changed the name of the club because I give a slightly less than stellar representation of it and it's a combination of locations and the theater as well
[SPEAKER_03]: is also not a real theater name, but...
[SPEAKER_03]: 95% of the locations are real.
[SPEAKER_03]: And during research, I became the writer and residents of the hotel or and so I've seen every one of the rooms and I worked in them as my writing space.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if readers will be so interested in the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're probably more interested in the marketing stuff because they're right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our listeners, rather, if listeners will be interested, but it's a spicy who done it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is my one warning for anybody who's reading it
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not your typical crime novel from romance standards.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's like two or three chillies on a one to five scale from crime standards.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like six.
[SPEAKER_02]: So now it's it's one of my favorite books of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: So please everybody added to your lists.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can link to it on our book shop.org affiliate page.
[SPEAKER_02]: You end up falling so desperately in love with sterling with the detective with Fernando.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just like obsessed with all of these people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm afraid that we didn't get to
[SPEAKER_02]: chat much about the book, but I knew that Alessandra could add a lot of value in terms of her intentionality that campaign she came up with and how masterful that was.
[SPEAKER_02]: We wish you so much like with this, please keep us posted on how it goes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thanks everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone!
[SPEAKER_02]: Today's guest is an Australian journalist based in New York City by Way of France and Spain.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is the author of the collected regrets of Clover, which has been translated into 20 by languages.
[SPEAKER_02]: She also writes about design, architecture and art for publications such as architectural digest, dwell and L they call.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my pleasure to welcome Mickey Brammer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mickey, welcome to the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Bianca.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such an honour and can I just say on the record thank you to you for this podcast because I've been listening since I was even clearing my first novel and it's helped me so much and I have so many friends that I know it's helped and I know that you put so much time and thought and effort and probably your own money into it so I just wanted to appreciate you on the air so to speak.
[SPEAKER_02]: My goodness, okay so now you've made me weepy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we even started, thank you so much for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really, really means a lot to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is exactly why I started the podcast in the first place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I absolutely adored the collected regrets of Clover.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I adored the book we're chatting about today.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for those of you who aren't watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the cover which is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: The book is called Good Joy, Bad Joy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so here we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: For more than 80 years, Joy Bridge Port has followed the rules, devoted wife loving mother, steadfast neighbor, in her small Hudson Valley town.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when her best friend Hazel is given only months to live, Joy is forced to confront the truth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hazel has lived fully, while she has only played it safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: determine Joy Bars to live boldly in the time she and Hazel have lived together.
[SPEAKER_02]: What begins a small rebellion, soon snowballs into petty crimes, and Joy must decide whether she can embrace the freedom of bad joy without losing the life and legacy she's built.
[SPEAKER_02]: With humour, heart and irresistible mischief, good joy, bad joy is a wise, big hearted celebration of friendship, second chances, and the courage to become
[SPEAKER_02]: who we were always meant to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So goosebumps reading that before we go into the book itself, there's a whole bunch that I want to ask you, Mickey, because one our readers love a good journey to publication story.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you take us through your starting before the collected
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Joel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am a journalist by trade and never actually planned to write a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And ever since I was a kid, I had quite an intense fear of death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as part of that, I was trying to, instead of avoiding everything, I tried to get curious about it and part of that was going to a lot of talks and things like that and events and you're exceeding listening to podcasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's when I came across the concept of a deckdooler.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just fascinated and I thought
[SPEAKER_01]: or the profession to essentially watching people die and then I thought oh actually who would do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be a really interesting character like what would lead someone to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I wanted to incorporate everything I'd learned from this kind of immersion that had helped me overcome my fear and I thought what if I could do that with a later coming of age story
[SPEAKER_01]: as this awakening, I'm also weaving in all of these themes that I learned from the death cafes and all of that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, yet there, I was clearing in the pandemic, a lot of people said, you know, I did think a book about death can sell right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of agents said that, and I was like, really, you know, if you just couldn't give a time,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then luckily the agent who was my dream agent Michelle Brow at Trellis, she, he was exactly what I was trying to do and that I was writing an uplifting hopeful book about death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she sent it to the editors at Winter Auction and I got a two book deal with St. Martin's and it sold in a lot of territories.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's actually 27 languages now that it's in I'm not sure, but
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been great.
[SPEAKER_01]: The response has been amazing, the word of mouth, you know, that's kind of the one thing you can't orchestrate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been really nice to see that three years later, people are still talking about it and connecting with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the second book, Good Joy, Bad Joy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I thought I was actually done with death and turned into death wasn't so it has a little bit of that, but hopefully it's, I would say, more existential than, you know, there is, there are,
[SPEAKER_01]: is that theme of her losing her friend, but hopefully there's still that uplifting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a very late coming of age, she's 89.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I believe that, you know, coming of age doesn't have to be that traditional late teens early, twenties venturing into the world for the first time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think life sometimes delays when you get to be a coming of age, especially if you become a mother or wife, young or you're perentified, if you lose a parent and have to kind of take care of
[SPEAKER_01]: the other parent or your younger sibling.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really interested in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, and it's coming out on make it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can be really petty sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I let it motivate me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when, you know, when your book went to auction, I think for me there would be an apartment.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was like these agents who were like, yeah, you turn me down and I'm a book's gone to auction.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been translated into 27 languages.
[SPEAKER_02]: So dearly, people wanted a book about debt.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think you're a nice person then I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wanted to ask, the collective regrets of Clover was so successful, especially for a debut.
[SPEAKER_02]: So did that put a lot of pressure on you for your sophomore novel?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or was it that you started writing this before the collective regrets of Clover was so successful?
[SPEAKER_02]: How did that work for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's an interesting question because two book deals, you know, everybody wants a two book deal and it is a wonderful thing because you know, you get a second shot regardless of how your first one does.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the other side of that is that you've kind of already, you know, I sold the second book just on them like a two line synopsis when I sold Clover and then when it came time to write that which I did try to start before Clover came out, but it was kind of around that
[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't really working, but I was like, well, I committed to this idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to have to see it through.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did it, send it to my editors, because I had three editors at once.
[SPEAKER_01]: So UK, US Australia, because they all bought it simultaneously in in two book deals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which again is a great thing, but also you have three cooks in the kitchen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they were kind of like, you know, this isn't quite it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You and have another girl, and I did, and then still wasn't it they're like, do you want to try again?
[SPEAKER_01]: And my heart wasn't really in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said, no, actually, I have this other idea I'd like to try.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am quite a quick writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that comes from journalism.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I did this one, good joy bad joy, which was something I'd had in mind for like, I didn't really want to do the two death books in a row.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I did this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, I,
[SPEAKER_01]: believe things happen as they should, not necessarily for a reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, maybe I needed to have that time between the books in order for this one to come into being.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I kind of trust that the journey was hard, but I learned a lot from my own, a lot about publishing and what two book deals mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that can be challenging in how when a publisher does
[SPEAKER_01]: Streams that come attached to that, you know, it's not the freedom of when I was writing Clio where I actually didn't know anything about publishing your podcast was the first thing I listened to that helped me dip my toe in and so I wasn't really writing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: with the idea to get published because they'd never really planned on writing a book and then so I think there was no pressure on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was writing it just to explore my own fears essentially and to see if I could write a book for someone like me who wouldn't read a book like that normally.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a lot different with that pressure of how
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't feel pressure because Clareva had done well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt very satisfied that the book I wanted to write was out there and people were connecting with it and I think that's a nice thing to have and also it wasn't like stratospheric success which I think that can be different when someone's book is, for example, the corresponding which is everywhere, you know, the whole different pressure like mine did well but, you know, not that well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's different kinds of pressure that come with a successful
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know what the whole tubic deal thing is so interesting because most authors do want that they do want that, you know, safety net or that is assurance that the next book is going to sell I've never had a tubic deal my last book, most puzzling murder they tried to do a tubic deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I was over the moon with it and you know CC and I really went over it and we were like publishing is in so much flux at the moment and I had very specifically chosen the editor that I wanted to work with for the witches of moonshine manner and she was my editor on the most puzzling murder but at that point CC was like we're not quite sure what's going to be happening in the publishing industry I think you should take a one book deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was very hard to say no to that, you know, two book deal, but I'm so glad I did because Blossomah editor, the publishing house completely rearranged my imprint became romance only it would have been well quite messy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's wonderful that it worked out for you, but I do just want listeners to keep that in mind, you know, there's some things where it really works out and it's great, and there's others that it can be quite messy.
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you feel writing to a deadline the second time?
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's where you're being a journalist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just kicked in and you were like, I got this, I got deadlines.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do love a deadline.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I don't work as well if I don't have a deadline.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with, I will say even with the story, you know, I did get to write this book that I had the idea for, but it, you know, it was directed by the editors in a way that I, you know, I love the finished product, but it's not, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: something that I would have written had I not been under contract I probably would have written a different book and I think what they were bringing to it was there awareness of the market and you know making it more.
[SPEAKER_01]: in this climate where publishing is very uncertain.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I understand all of that logic, but it does, that's another thing to keep in mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you're very attached to a certain idea and you want it to go a very certain way, a two-book teal doesn't always give you the room to do that because you've got these people who are along the way are,
[SPEAKER_01]: weighing in on your decisions, whereas if you're selling a book that's completed, yes, obviously there's going to be edits, but if you don't agree with their vision for it, you can potentially go somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and also, you know, a lot of the times, well, for me, I don't know what the hell the book's about until I finished it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I need to be able to write the book and make the mistakes myself and go, okay, this isn't what it's about, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we'll be
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd just be able to write it, so maybe I don't know if it's something you're going to come back to later.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I have also never had the experience of working more than working with more than one editor at a time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you speak about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like do they have completely conflicting views or is it that they are pretty much aligned?
[SPEAKER_02]: How does that go?
[SPEAKER_02]: Depends?
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of varies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think with COVID, I were mostly aligned.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being Australian, I kind of wanted whether Australian, which is very similar to British humour, and I think maybe South African humour.
[SPEAKER_02]: We Australians and Brits, they all got the same humor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was wondering how that would translate to American humor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: But mostly we quote everyone with a line.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were kind of differences of opinion with a good joy bad joy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for when that happens, you kind of do have the opportunity to say, well, these are my options.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I see your feedback here is what I think we can.
[SPEAKER_01]: how we can accommodate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, you can write as with any artist who you can be strongly believe in something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I don't think this is the right direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as a journalist, I'm so used to being edited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love being edited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually don't think everybody is a great writer alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that and having Web doesn't edit her as well, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: you have that objective perspective that can make your writing even better and I think that's definitely what's happened with my books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate these are veterans of the industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very lucky to have three in three different markets and they all have different perspectives of in life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it is challenging kind of to have so many voices sometimes, but overall you are getting three expert eyes on your book too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's the positive of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if like books have ever changed, depending on which market they are, like maybe the UK ones are happier ending or the US ones, or that side, be interesting to see if they are books out there that are on different markets, edited by different editors who request slight changes according to those markets.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I look quite short that do you mean that they would have different endings depending on the market.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that would be very interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you've also got like all of the translations and so it's interesting to see which one of the she's in, but then exactly, you know, maybe a place that's translating is like, we'd prefer the happy ending.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, go with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be an interesting experiment, I think, and then they are the readers who clicked every version of the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're now clicked each of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, so getting into this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, what I love is when I see authors breaking so-called rules and doing them really well because I hate on the podcast that we so rule prescriptive.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, do this and do that because those are tried and true methods and really good authors pull things off and so emerging writers like, well, so and so did it so I can do it and it's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: So in terms of working 20 bucks, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what we generally say to begin with is either conflict or giving the character something that they desperately want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we generally say open opening pages, but have conflict or what they desperately want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet you begin kind of with neither.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is no burning, burning thing that you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: There isn't huge conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's just this
[SPEAKER_02]: lovely kind person who adapts to everybody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's speak about the intentionality of that choice, especially considering her character arc because who she is at the end is rightfully so very different to who she is at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you started herself more with the stasis than the character wanting something or they're being conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you would have done that intentionally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and actually I will admit that I thought of you when I was writing the opening chapter because she wakes up and I'm pretty sure you've said don't start a book with a character waking up and so but in her case it's very particular because she's 89 every time she wakes up it's a surprise that she's still alive and in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a reason why her waking up is meaningful element, just like here's the average day in her life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, I started it slowly because, you know, when you're 89, you've, one of the themes of the book is how elderly people, especially elderly women, are rendered invisible by society or useless.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she's kind of, she's outlived pretty much everybody, she's
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, society doesn't take much notice of any more because she's an old woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: So her life is very slow and she is in that reflective stage of her life and so
[SPEAKER_01]: It does, I feel, it is that gentle at the time, you know, I don't, there are go get us at that age, but generally people are more in a looking back phase and I really wanted to capture that, especially to contrast where she is at the end and the final line of the book is also about waking up, but it's about waking up to life rather than physically waking up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's, it's lovely when you brought those two things together.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for our lessons out there who are like, I need my damn character to wake up and these hosts keep saying they can't read this book and you can see how it's done really well and with intentionality.
[SPEAKER_02]: So one thing, Mickey, I also want to read out your is writing descriptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: about things that tell us about the main character.
[SPEAKER_02]: So often when we have a main character describing things are the people settings etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: they just describe those things and you have a way of writing which it took me a while to figure out and then I became obsessed with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it goes here, it goes, a wet nose, nozzles at my arm as Hettie's head sticks out of her bag.
[SPEAKER_02]: Delighted, I scratch her ears.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, they're little one.
[SPEAKER_02]: She snuffles at my open palm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeti has great tasting people, Rowan says, stroking her wiring coat, which is almost the same color of my morning coffee, just a dash of milk.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a genius description, because she could have just said the dog is a light brown color, but she says,
[SPEAKER_02]: the same color as my morning coffee just a dash of milk.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is ways to show have descriptions of other characters, settings etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell us more about the main character as opposed to just focusing on different things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were like multiple times throughout the book that I saw that and I was like I'm going to need to steal that from Mickey and start focusing more on describing characters that
[SPEAKER_02]: you set out to do is this maybe part of the journalism that comes through?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it actually comes from I was a travel journalist for a while, and I was also a photographer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, part of travel journalism, especially I wasn't too much like a straight reporting, it was more creating the experience of being in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: and the stories that I would write for a particular magazine would be in the first person to really trying to make the read a feel like, go in this destination with you, and part of that is, you know, really, which I think you often speak about it and what God says is tapping into the senses.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, what can you see, feel, hear taste.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it's just more interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a very visual person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love reading books where I can, you know, really imagine something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Conversely, if someone goes a little bit to over the top with a description or the metaphor doesn't quite work, I find that really hard because I have to stop and really try to think about it because I am such a visual person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also think it helps to have been a photographer as well because you're always looking for you know patterns or colors or geometry or just the simple beauty and I think being able to bring that into writing is to me it just makes it more interesting but I often you know when I'm walking out and about I'll look at something and think of how I can describe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also when I'm editing sometimes I will just say how can I make this more interesting because it's just a lot of
[SPEAKER_01]: description that this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think evocative is that where I want to stimulate people's imaginations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but also, okay, you said that you wrote from like first person, was that more like alter fiction reporting or no, like your journalism?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just like a travel magazine and so writing there, it was still journalism, but with that, it was just the style of their travel, you know, I would do most, that's the only time I've ever written in first person in journalism, but they really didn't want to create that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of like a day in the life wherever you were and you were walking through a space and just to really make the reader feel present rather than here, you know, listing all of the things you can do and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've spoken to a lot of journalists who went on to write fiction and they found it really difficult because, you know, writing journalism is one thing it's sticking kind of to the, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: the fact that Tetra is not a lot of emotionality, it's not a lot of interiority, and so the writing tends to be quite dry, and it's the same for people who've written academically.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you look at their work and you're like, okay, no, you are not writing a thesis, you are writing a story, and we need entry into the characters psyche and their feelings of Tetra, and this is something you've never struggled with, because you just throw us right into this character, and we feel like we've known them forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think also, like, I was a magazine journalist, I think we do have a bit more leeway than if you're a newspaper journalist.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do apply a few things from journalism to that, you know, you're taught to keep your sentences quite short and economic or to vary the length.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I always try to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot in rhythm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always reading for rhythm and cadence and just intuitively I can tell when a rhythm is often then I'll tweak it and I think that might come from the journalism as well because you're looking at the article as a whole and you want to make sure you end on that right note.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a similar reason, I keep my chapters very short.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can kind of have that feeling of satisfaction and propulsion as you move it as a reader.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to, you know, that feeling when you're in bed and you're like, I should go to sleep, but I'll just finish this chapter and you see you only have three pages left.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the chapter leaves you on a note where you want to read the next chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you've read five chapters, whereas it's a really, really long chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're like, oh, well, I may as well stop here because I'm not going to read 50 more pages and so I love that feeling and I try to create that for the reader as well and I want them to have that feeling like my books both books I think start off slow and people mention that I know that's a thing some people say they don't but I think a lot of people do but I do like that contemplative start especially in both cases these people are feeling out of step with the world and really not they're a little bit less.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's also there in sighting incidents, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we talk about it, sighting incidents, we tend to think of big things, like a fun call in the middle of the night, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, you know, they're in sighting incidents or will I wake up tomorrow?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what am I grappling with here?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it can be a little bit quieter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly, and I do want to, you know, we talk a lot about likeable and likeable characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love, I'm likeable characters if they're written well, you know, I love a woman who's navigating a mess of her own making, but I think also, I do want my characters to frustrate you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I do want you to, in both cases, I want you to be like, ah, why can't she realize that she can, you know, this is in her control when she's gonna like, oh no,
[SPEAKER_01]: societies put me in this box.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not like, and so you really are frustrated and you really want her to break out of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is the journey that you're about to see, hopefully.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I pull up, but I do try to increase the pacing as the book goes on, so you do feel like it's a kind of not a sprint, but it's a very easy ride to the end rather than plowing through it, because I do understand what that's like as a reader.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I like being frustrated but in the beginning, so long as I'm starting to see changes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Joy was just lovely, she was so lovely, but so self-effacing, so would give up something she desperately wanted, like the lemon cake.
[SPEAKER_02]: She would give that up for the woman behind her, be even thanked her, like the amount of this book is so much about how women have to keep
[SPEAKER_02]: giving up parts of themselves, giving up they once and they need to constantly serve other people and so she's doing that so I mentioned the beginning even as a mother as a grandmother all these kinds of things and I was like starting to get frustrated with her because I was like come on, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: because I'm probably hazel in the books.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: The hazel's of the book are like, come on, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't want to give away plug points, but as soon as Joyce starts going off the rails and she starts doing these, well, illegal naughty things, I was like, yes, now I'm here for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: This woman is like finding herself and then we walk to the races.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I do, that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you picked that up because it was very much about how women, you know, make themselves small or for everybody's needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I also did one head to have a tiny bit of a matter complex, you know, that comes through that is a bit frustrating that she's like, or where I'm a good person, not that she consciously thinks that, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, there is that validation that comes from giving up mental and when cake as well, which, again, I wanted to be frustrating, like, I don't want you to, because I think our protagonist that you just love the whole way through and you're cheering for them everything they do is not that interesting because then you don't get to experience their growth and to me, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: The growth is always the most interesting part of the novel, even if they don't necessarily get the thing may one, as long as they were involved, then that makes that satisfying for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: lovely seeing all the characters on the page like you say coming of age, doing their thing, really, really love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you've structured it so that we have a few flashback chapters as opposed to having a flashback in a scene, they become their own chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I would call a sort of dual timeline novel, although it's not equally balanced.
[SPEAKER_02]: So those decisions where you're like, okay, I can't just do a flashback in the scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really have to go back and
[SPEAKER_02]: contain this piece from the past in its own chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that again comes from the travel writing thing of really embarrassing you in that moment, whereas if it's in the scene, then you kind of have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: move into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They become reflective.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I remember when whereas he just turned the page and you're in that moment and I did the same in Clover and I just wanted to make those feel like really vivid reflections and moments and even in the the audio book of Good Joy Bad Joy, there's two different narrators.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a younger
[SPEAKER_01]: person who does the younger ones and I think also just in a way because they provide context especially to the friendship or to all of her relationships that you're seeing in the present and so I like to kind of have those as little snippets like flashback I think because I think so visually like flashbacks.
[SPEAKER_01]: in a movie rather than I think when they're in the chapter, you know, in those old reviews that you used to do like the wiggly lines when someone flashed back like I kind of like, yeah, I feel like I just find that those separate ones are much more efficient.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you know, like when a chapter ends you're out of that and you're back in the present.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay, one last question which we have to do quickly is I love your exploration of tricky family dynamics and how good intentions don't equate to good outcomes because we have joy who cried really hard to be a good mother but her daughter really restraints for a whole bunch of things and so they have to figure that out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you speak a bit about like writing that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm very interested in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I touched on an forbidden clever, but I love thinking about how our parents shape us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I came to the realization that I was the age, and now I'm older, then that my parents were when they had me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just realizing how little I knew about life, and how I was winging a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, wow, they were probably winging a lot of those with them may gave me, but I took it as gospel, and it really shaped to me, and I still, a lot of the things my mother told me still do come through.
[SPEAKER_01]: In my daily life, and I have a great relationship with her, but I'm like, well, she probably got that from her parents when they were really young and didn't know that much and it's a generational thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
[SPEAKER_01]: Often we parent the way that we wish we were parented but that's not necessarily how that child needs to be parented because you're not taking into account Different personalities until I love that conflict especially joy comes from a generation where if we speak in love language is acts of service are really.
[SPEAKER_01]: important, and that's how she showed her love, but she also comes from a generation that don't express their love verbally, very often.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but that's what her daughter needed and had daughter, and she also tried to seek her daughter to think on the positive side, and that whole toxic positivity thing that,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it doesn't leave room for vulnerability or to express your emotions and that's what her daughter really needed and so that created this conflict and now joy sees because she lost her mother young and kind of had to grow up quickly and take care of her father.
[SPEAKER_01]: She sees the way her grandson.
[SPEAKER_01]: is having to take care of his mother, who's a single mother, and wants to stop that from happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she's parenting or grand parenting him in a different way, and then that causes conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really love that, you know, we're all just winging it and I love to see what the emotional aftermath is of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I loved as well that there was this jealousy that her daughter rather wanted to speak to her best friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, then her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, it was just, it was really fascinating.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we are at the end of our time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm holding up the book again, good joy, bad joy.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're linking to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you buy the book there, you support the podcast and an independent bookstore.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to read
[SPEAKER_02]: the two books together.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are not, you know, sequel or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you haven't read the collected regrets of Clover, read it and read Good Joy Bad Joy, we wish you so much success with this Mickey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Bianca.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's it for today's episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the meantime, keep at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember, it just takes one yes.