[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everybody, welcome to shooting the shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, see now we're about to go on a rant without hitting record.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's not just do the whole show before we hit record.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because then I was, you know, chat about what we're going to chat about.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I made, I made a stop and freeze and pause.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, hi.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for doing that show.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that was good.
[SPEAKER_05]: That was good.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, you know, it was about to go off.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: The thing we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how, how was your week been?
[SPEAKER_02]: I always feel like when we have our off week, I don't know, there's just like more news.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, what do you think?
[SPEAKER_05]: Is there more news or is it just that we haven't chatted about?
[SPEAKER_05]: I also have the same feeling.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just wondering whether it's like a bias.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I weeks been good, lots of calls and check-ins and fires to put out, and I always feel a little overstimulated when, I mean, it's 1 p.m.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't even know how many calls today, I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I'm a little loopy, if people are listening to me and they're like, oh, let's see, see, loopy, cc is looping.
[SPEAKER_04]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_04]: You have a good week so far.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean it's been very steady, you know, we've got some contracts, doing some spring submissions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of books coming out, like client books bring you something.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like wrapped up a contract today.
[SPEAKER_05]: Wait, can we have a moment of silence for wrapping up a contract?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's sad silence.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is.
[SPEAKER_05]: Come on, it is like so hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like claps, anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we just have a moment of diselibrating.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had to send an email today to contract person being like,
[SPEAKER_02]: The goal is to wrap this up.
[SPEAKER_02]: The goal isn't pressed to kind of go back and forth and like, you know, like a million times.
[SPEAKER_02]: The goal is to work to a resolution and obviously we're going to go back and forth, but you know what I mean, I think we're not working to a resolution.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the part that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, sometimes I don't know what's happening to you, but sometimes it's like,
[SPEAKER_05]: who's right and where it started and it's like okay let's zoom out and I'm off off and guilty of not assuming yet so I'm not like this is no shade but let's zoom out and remember that we're all on the same side you know this is not litigation and and let's find a way to work together because we all are on the same team like everyone's here team let's make the book happen you know exactly yeah and obviously we're gonna fight for the
[SPEAKER_02]: Their goal is obviously me, you know, responsive the responsibility to their overlords, corporate overlords, but yeah, different interests, but say vote, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like where's in litigation?
[SPEAKER_05]: There's one loser and one winner and so it's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: I always, I always, and again, I've never, I didn't use to be a little theater, but I, I've always, this is a conversation I used to have with my friends back when I was practicing while.
[SPEAKER_05]: When you work in, like, I don't know, murders and acquisitions and banking law and, you know, I used to work with IPOs and stuff and because it's not let it litigious.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, again, like you said, we're all representing each person's interest.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, if I'm on the side of the bankers and I'm, you know, watching out for the bankers, if I'm on the side of the corporation, like a hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_05]: But there is, there is an expectation of let us all remember the mutual goal and the fact this is mutually beneficial to everyone and let's not almost like give into our basis instincts of like fighting because we're so good at fighting, you know, that's just not the goal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not a good thing to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, sometimes it's about who's right, but it's not how he's about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it's not about ego.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about making sure that the author gets what he needs.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, 100%.
[SPEAKER_03]: And your weekend was good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Would you do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, gosh, I've kind of flew by.
[SPEAKER_02]: The kids are just at that age where they're like, going to a million different birthdays.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's just a lot of running around.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but they're good.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're happy to see who weather's nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're outside of town, which is great.
[SPEAKER_05]: I did an escape room this weekend.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Did you escape the time?
[SPEAKER_05]: We escape to escape the group of friends.
[SPEAKER_05]: We escape.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was actually an issue.
[SPEAKER_05]: There was a crossbow situation and like, it wasn't working and if it's not working with me, the issues mean.
[SPEAKER_05]: But if it's not working with my friends who are very dexterous and like able-bodied and they know what they're doing, they're not like me.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have no hand-eye coordination, they do.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right?
[SPEAKER_05]: So we had, so the thing was broken.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we actually would have escaped even sooner or not for the broken crossbow, whatever the thing was.
[SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, I have no aim.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not good at sports, everybody knows this about me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just there to hang out.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all good.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you read this game?
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the other puzzles.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: word puzzles that were fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure that you dominated those.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you go out for independent bookstore day on Saturday?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you grab some books?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_05]: Grabbed books also placed a couple of online orders.
[SPEAKER_05]: Great.
[SPEAKER_05]: I am reading Heartwood.
[SPEAKER_05]: Wait, is it called Heartwood?
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to make sure that I'm getting the name right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Heartword.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: by, again, trying to pronounce this person's name, Amity Gage, I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: I hope so.
[SPEAKER_05]: So good, definitely for fans of the God of the Woods by Liz Moore or so.
[SPEAKER_05]: Highly recommend, and you, what are you reading?
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I got a huge stack.
[SPEAKER_02]: The one that really jumped out to me is fame sick by Lee to Dunham.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just cannot escape the discourse.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was a girl's fan.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm of the era of where, you know, that was, that was my use, that was my 20s.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, I was very enthralled with that, just obsessed like I read for about every night.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been like picking up in the mornings before the kids come in the room, trying to read as much as I can.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm obsessed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's she's a phenomenal writer and number one, but yeah, that's great.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, she's so good.
[SPEAKER_05]: I haven't read it, but I didn't watch all of girls.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so yeah, that was I don't know well that show age to know that I'm thinking about it, but people were saying they're having a rewatch because yeah, I should do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wonder.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there's that nostalgia that like indecisely is nostalgia.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, we're just getting old.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: I watched the craft actually wildly like, no, seriously, on the weekend.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was like, I made popcorn started watching the craft and did not age well, but you feel, I felt 13 again.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, hi.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm 13 once again watching this movie.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_05]: I very much made me want to cast spells and curse people.
[SPEAKER_05]: Not movie.
[SPEAKER_05]: Still does.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was trying to think it was our job like witchy at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have a witchy job.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a fairy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's like woo woo in like energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: We send out into the universe, but not particularly witchy without naming names.
[SPEAKER_05]: Think of the person you would curse if you could.
[SPEAKER_05]: I am thinking no don't say don't say you would curse anyone nobody believes that don't say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay I feel like we about to say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like we talked about nemesis before.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you're my nemesis What nemesis no no that's different like wanting to curse on a nemesis is too much work.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like a steady It's all right.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll let everybody would you really not curse anyone or did I just imagine you were about to say that
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to think on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to think on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to come up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to come up with my list.
[SPEAKER_05]: Universe do not give Carly magic powers.
[SPEAKER_05]: She would not use them wisely.
[SPEAKER_05]: Give them to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you can tell me who you want me to curse.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I will curse people.
[SPEAKER_05]: I will be dressed up with my powers.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we have a lot of stuff to chat about because last week was our by week.
[SPEAKER_02]: We always take a week off when our bonus episode comes out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, actually it was thinking this is a good time to bring it up.
[SPEAKER_02]: At some point, CC and I should record a podcast for our sub-stackers on one of our by weeks, because we don't want to interdate the podcast feed, obviously with too many episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: We like to keep you guys steady on our Monday Thursday regimen, but it might be fun to do a podcast for our sub-stackers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's something that we're throwing around with.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have scheduled our first guests.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's been a while since I've talked about guests.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say who it is yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will tease our guests.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know them.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're writing, yeah, we're really excited to have them on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we do have a future guest, but we have lots, lots and lots to chat about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you see, should we start with the real that you sent me?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, let's do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So shout out to my husband for sending this to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I am a huge owning Manhattan fan.
[SPEAKER_05]: Do you watch the show at all?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would like it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You would like it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: You would like it.
[SPEAKER_05]: You would really like it because you like real estate.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: and it's way more about real estate than selling sunset.
[SPEAKER_05]: But anyway, I'm a huge honie Manhattan fan and Ryan Sirhant, who if you guys, let me probably guys know he is, but he's like the star of honie Manhattan and he's the founder of Sirhant, a real estate broke good job.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if that's right but it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_05]: Man sells lots of property in New York and elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_05]: Man is very impressive.
[SPEAKER_05]: Man is very accomplished.
[SPEAKER_05]: He is also adorable.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like he's so adorable.
[SPEAKER_05]: I believe he has a theater background and it shows in the best way.
[SPEAKER_05]: He posted this real about how chatGPT blew up a $50 million deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: So he was about to close a $50 million deal and involved a whole bunch
[SPEAKER_05]: And I forget the order, but the buyer asked ChatchipiT, hey, am I getting a fair deal?
[SPEAKER_05]: It was a seller first, it was a seller first.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so the seller, you know, am I getting a fair deal?
[SPEAKER_05]: And ChatchipiT was like, no.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then the buyer did the same thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: And ChatchipiT was like, no.
[SPEAKER_05]: and the deal fell through.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, obviously, at this point, maybe Ryan has fixed it and who dressed it.
[SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, he asked a really interesting question which is like, is this, is this what's happening now?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, are people going to chat GPT to check to see if they're getting a good deal or not as opposed to like trusting their agents, trusting the cops that they could look up, like trusting their own critical thinking and to me, while this highlights so many things.
[SPEAKER_05]: What is that criminal look like?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's so different on the publishing side because I don't believe that a penguin random house employee is going to be asking chat You'd be like, do you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, but on the on the on the seller side, meaning the authors they might and I I don't know.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just think yeah highlights the fact that
[SPEAKER_05]: AI is kind of a sick afan't you know like it just tells you what you want to hear like it's just essentially being like no you are better it's not giving you any information the impression I have anyway is that it's not telling you what you need to hear like the reality the tough love the the realistic information it's just kind of telling you what you want to hear because that way you just keep talking to it and that way you're more addicted to it which is the goal of AI right like the goal of technology is to keep us hooked to it so
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, do you?
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess without getting into specifics like do you think that's happening like do you think I absolutely think this is happening But I want to go back to the real so I was obviously very curious about the comments right because of the real blew up and you could see the real actually I forget his name right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this Ryan?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that his first name Ryan?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah Ryan like responding like oh, I got an update Did it so he actually like updates a little bit in the comments, but
[SPEAKER_02]: going back to selling sunset.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jason, I've been high my from the off a high record commented in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying like this is happening, you know, all over the place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm really in another comment made the excellent point which I think is what you're getting at, which is context, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's all about context.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you ask the internet anything, it can give you information, but it doesn't have the context about
[SPEAKER_02]: The current marketplace, you know, the advice from your agent, it just doesn't have the depth of knowledge and context is obviously that's the reason that you hire an agent or broker of any kind of deal because the point is that you trust them to help you with the deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I absolutely think this is happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is going to continue to happen in a number of ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this is probably happening with writers getting replacements.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be very clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not, I do not suggest anyone ever put a contract.
[SPEAKER_02]: in any sort of AI software.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be very clear about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do imagine that people are taking everything from representation agreements to deal memos to contracts, to imagine people putting this in AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I don't support it, but I imagine they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to come back with different leverage points and different things to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm all for an empowered author.
[SPEAKER_02]: asking questions that they need to ask and I will always start with somebody and walk to the crew, you know, why are you having these questions and let's go through this and this is the reason in his hands.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will always do that, but at the end of the day, you have to trust me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I can't be arguing with chatGbt about the future of your career.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that that's just not how this is going to work.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just feel like if you were to pretend like you were the other side to chat, actually chat just kidding, I'm on the other side.
[SPEAKER_05]: It would just say the opposite.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've never actually interacted with chatGPT.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't even know how to go about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I imagine you write chatGPT in Google and a web page opens.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's probably what happens in the detects box.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've never done it.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I hear everyone doing it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And most of these things are not very intelligent.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just not impressed.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not impressed by it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm annoyed by it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've tried probably two or three different software variations for different purposes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just depends on what you're using it for like I would just know that into professional setting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I use it for personal things like I am going on this trip to these cities.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm staying in this location.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, give me, I can see you know what are the three things to do here or if I want to get from here to here and here, and I have this many hours in a day, so I find it very useful for like trip planning, I just don't like I think there's a lot of like home uses and family and personal uses that it can be very helpful for.
[SPEAKER_02]: All that said, I was never used it in a professional setting because I don't ever believe it's going to do my job better than me, but I do think we're going to see more and more of this and it's the disclosure, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't think any author is going to be like, hey, I might put this contract with DL memo, this
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, why did you need chat?
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to ask those questions for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I just don't understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just sit down and have a call and go through the two of us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad you said it.
[SPEAKER_05]: What if they say, and please know that I'm not saying this, but what if they say, it's kind of like getting a second opinion.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I don't like you go to the doctor and you want to get a second opinion.
[SPEAKER_05]: What if they told you that essentially they wanted a second opinion?
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you think you would respond?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would respond with this looks like the beginning of trust issues that we are going to have for the relation of our professional, okay, like for the professional relationship we're going to have like if you can't trust me at this point, you're allowed to hire a lawyer to look at any contract that you ever want to look at like I would never stay don't hire a third party, but I am your representative and there is no third party representative, I am the representative.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think it's never happened to me, but I think that I don't think that I wouldn't necessarily see it as a trust issue thing like that would just depend on the person the tone It sounds so mean I don't want to sound mean I would see it as oh no my client has no critical thinking yeah like like that would scare me you know like I'd be like you think this thing is smart I'm concerned but yeah if they're my client they have to be smart because they're excellent writer and
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, probably this will never happen to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's, that's I'm gonna be my conclusion.
[SPEAKER_05]: This will never happen to me because my clients would just, I mean, yes, they trust me, but again, that that's even the point from me, the point would be, why would chat no?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, seriously, why would chat no?
[SPEAKER_05]: And this is the analogy I'm gonna use.
[SPEAKER_05]: When I first started agenting, I have a legal background.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have taught contracts law, like I know contracts.
[SPEAKER_05]: television contracts are different telling you right now okay best lawyers I know best legal minds I know highly educated so well paid could not navigate a publishing contract with a health and not because the legalese is difficult it's not because the standards of the industry like this is the business side of the contract right it's not about like can you write a clause with clarity like it's it's about like oh this is how export royalties work or this is how the
[SPEAKER_02]: And that has to rewrite the entire business model to think if, you know, it's not even no experience got in there.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so chat to BT, having all this knowledge of contracts, which I'm going to assume it has, I don't believe has the specialized knowledge of publishing contracts.
[SPEAKER_05]: And even if it does, again, don't think it does.
[SPEAKER_05]: But even if it does, it's just going to do the sick of famed thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, oh, we're just going to tell you what you want to hear.
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I think it's just to be, I love how, you know, usually you're the pessimist that I'm the optimist here, but I absolutely believe this is happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I absolutely think it's going to get worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not so poor.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, it's bad.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know if that guy's with Carly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, when Carly is being the pessimist.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, I don't think that you're being a pessimist though.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I think you're being a realistic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you're realistic.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I do.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think you're just looking at the situation.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, this is why, oh, oh, I know what I would tell the author, just came to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is what I would tell them if they went to chat GPT and asked chat GPT about the contract.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'd be like, hey, should I ask chat GPT to write the book too?
[SPEAKER_05]: Seriously?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I would say.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I have my answer now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to do everybody's jobs now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if it's you trust it for that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, you know, like if you think it's smart enough, like is that what we're supposed to be doing in the office?
[SPEAKER_05]: Would be horrified.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say, no, you should.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to be like exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's your whole career on the software.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's hear words for sponsors.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we're going to come back and get into some more juicy topics.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, and we are back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we have a comment that I wanted to get into.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, this person says, I have a question that's adjacent to the blur discussion.
[SPEAKER_02]: You discuss authors blurbing books.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't like, I want to submit to books with books but finding comps have happy with has been a struggle.
[SPEAKER_02]: Recently, I found book with a good amount of reviews, nearly 150k averaging 4.1 stars on good reads with a similar protagonist secret.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the book up from the library and I hate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The writing in my opinion is terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do I still come to it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I have been searching for months and keep running into this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my only holdup for submitting, kind of like a sad emoji.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, do I come to books?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't love if they're marketing stats are good, CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thoughts.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh God, I'm gonna be very honest.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't see an issue at all.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, if you think it's a comp to your bust sales comp,
[SPEAKER_05]: is to give the acquiring editor information to input in a P&L statement, like a profit and lost statement.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I don't see an issue.
[SPEAKER_05]: I actually know a lot of authors, including Bianca, who has talked about this.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not exactly a comp thing, but there's a parallel.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know a lot of authors who get routinely, like, you know, in their marketing copy, people say, oh, this is for fans of XYZ, and they don't like XYZ.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the authors are like, hey, if it's gonna, you know, if it's gonna find me an audience that's fine.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, someone might be thinking, hey, but what about the people who he did not like that book?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's such a big issue.
[SPEAKER_05]: I will often pick up a book and it says, for fans of in certain name here, which I'm not gonna be mean.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I don't like that, but I still, like, I still can enjoy the book, you know, like, I think that this is one of those things where I don't think it's that big of a deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, if it's a fair comp, if it's meeting the parameters, if it's recent,
[SPEAKER_05]: If it actually fits the style of your book, I don't see it as a problem.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you can always in the query letter if you want to make sure to mention what specific element you're comping too.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you don't have to say the writing style because you didn't like the writing.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, you could see you mentioned protagonist secret.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you could, you could say, you know, protagonist with a secret in the vein of xyz.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't personally see a problem.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm curious to know how you feel.
[SPEAKER_02]: My first instinct was actually, I don't think this person should come to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of came back around when they were like, I've been searching for months and months.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, I think if you have a wealth of options, don't pick the one that, you know, oh, yeah, is one that you don't love.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're struggling, my only caveat is I don't see this in the question, but you need to make sure that it's published by a big five or like a large independent.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of books out there with 150K reviews, you know, averaging a lot of stars that is self published.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just wouldn't do that if it's self published because we always talk about if you want to be traditionally published, please make sure that you are comping to traditionally published books.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my only thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But taste is subjective, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Just because you don't love the writing, doesn't mean that other people don't and SEC pointed out it is a sales tool.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought that was an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we both came out at a little differently.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that was a good idea to the listener who sent that in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the next question that we got, I guess we're full of listener questions today, the next one that we got, it's kind of long.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to read it just because I think some of the context is useful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, here we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: I signed with my agent in March 2024.
[SPEAKER_02]: We went on submission in October 2024 after two major revisions.
[SPEAKER_02]: After two rounds on sub, we had lots of positive feedback, no offers.
[SPEAKER_02]: After showing my agent the first 30 pages of my next project, she was not excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I re-read the book on submission in June 2025 and decided we could improve on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I floated the idea of a revision to my agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: She said there was a small group of editors left, we could pitch to.
[SPEAKER_02]: But make sure I knew it would be a harder sell this time around.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was enthusiastic about my idea, so I got to work rewriting my manuscript and deliver to her in August as promised.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, she wouldn't read it until I changed the first 50 pages, even though I felt she'd lost interest in the project.
[SPEAKER_02]: Provided again, delivered in December, in January, she agreed I improved, but she no longer wanted to send it out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was a bit crushed after six months of work that no one would see.
[SPEAKER_02]: I asked her what happened to the six to seven editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: She said we could pitch it to, and she said I had misunderstood.
[SPEAKER_02]: All we could do was resend the new draft, the remaining editors who hadn't responded.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I found an email where she mentioned at least one new editor who was waiting for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I asked her about it, she said the project was no longer fit for her list.
[SPEAKER_02]: I asked what she expected from my revision that she didn't get, so I could understand where I went wrong, but she wouldn't explain.
[SPEAKER_02]: She never let me see the submission materials even though I asked twice.
[SPEAKER_02]: She offered to nod to the last four editors we had in her responses from with the revisions attached, we received no response, so I decided to work on the next project.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to make sure we were on the same page before I said it to her, so I asked what genre she was excited to pitch in my next project and her goals were at match.
[SPEAKER_02]: She responded by saying she no longer wanted to represent me because I failed to incorporate her editorial objectives that I shouldn't cater to her preferences and she wished me the best instead of being worth happier working with someone else.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it normal for an agent to drop a client after feeling to settle the first book?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it reasonable for me to ask which genre she's hoping to sell next?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so confused by this reaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel a bit misled and discarded.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for reading any advice would be greatly appreciated.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that was a long one, but I wanted everybody to fold back and forth there.
[SPEAKER_05]: We should start with a virtual hug for this person.
[SPEAKER_05]: Person, we are sending you a virtual hug.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, like what did you think about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: First I start.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not abnormal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, this is not abnormal.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want this person to be like, I did something wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually don't think either party did anything wrong, you know, I think communication can always be better of course from anybody, but there's a lot of this job is done by emails.
[SPEAKER_02]: from highly sensitive people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of times there's a lot of back and forth.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of time between these emails and a lot of stewing, you know, in agents have lots of projects and authors are focusing on their one project that they're very passionate about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as somebody that's been doing this a long time,
[SPEAKER_02]: I try to never ever forget that I have a lot of diversification in my portfolio, if you want to call it not, and maybe that feels like kind of say, working with lots of different authors on lots of different topics.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then authors, you know, I'm the one person, you know, and the person that they're really focusing on, and I'm the person that's trying to get them to the other side, which is which is the book deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I try to be really sympathetic of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't really think there's anything that abnormal, like I feel like it sucks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, communication probably could have been better,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, people do change their mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: The market changes, editors leave as we talk about the on the show every week.
[SPEAKER_02]: Editors leave, mergers happen, imprints get closed, and we have to constantly pivot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when something is on submission for multiple rounds, you know, we can think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so at some imprint is the right fit six months ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we go and look at the sublist again, and that imprint's closed in this person's gone.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, there's just so much behind the scenes that's
[SPEAKER_02]: hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really hard to explain on like such a, I don't know, such a, such a personal level, but I don't know, this is my high level thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can go deep on any of these topics, but CC, what did you think?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's an interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I, I guess I have so many thoughts, not so much on this person's situation, because truth be told, I don't know what this person is.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what any of these people are.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I know there's more to the story, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't need to suggest the authors not telling us what's happening.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just knew there's obviously more, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: I guess my thoughts, I think it's really important for authors to understand that.
[SPEAKER_05]: It might seem like a small thing to say, oh, I had this idea on this project that's already got an submission.
[SPEAKER_05]: I had this idea on how to change it.
[SPEAKER_05]: So maybe I just change it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And since the editors haven't responded yet, like we'll just swap it.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll swap one manuscript for the other.
[SPEAKER_05]: It can seem like a no big deal thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is actually quite a big deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: We are not supposed to be submitting anything, unless we are absolutely very, very confident that it is the final polished, amazing draft.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know, there's an argument to be made that nothing is ever truly finished, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think that there is something to be said about it being ready for submission.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think that that's the first thing I would say, like, and as, like, I, again, do not know the situation, not trying to say anything about any of the parties here.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have had clients, you know, made submission go to me and say, what if I change this?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm 99% of the time, I'm advising them against it because it looks bad and it's usually coming from a place of anxiety and not a place of strategy and we're supposed to be leading the strategy.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's why agents are driving the car when it comes to the submission.
[SPEAKER_05]: You should know exactly where the car is.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to give you all the directions.
[SPEAKER_05]: When I'm about at the car, talk about the car.
[SPEAKER_05]: But we're driving the car.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you're not going to set the pace.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're not going to dictate where we're like, that's just not the author's job.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because if the author's do that, it's kind of like,
[SPEAKER_05]: The person who's getting surgery, telling the surgeon what to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, no, don't do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's something that stood out to me and I wanted to kind of talk about it a little bit because I don't want people to think, oh, it's not a big deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of authors think it's not a big deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is actually a really big deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you don't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, you, I think you should be writing your next project.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then the other thing I want to say,
[SPEAKER_05]: I understand wanting to have a conversation with your agent about what is sellable, what is not, on before right.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not that I don't understand emotionally.
[SPEAKER_05]: I very much understand and there are situations where that conversation makes sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I have also seen.
[SPEAKER_05]: writers want to take the risk out of publishing, you know, like I, here's what goes through an author's mind or what may go through an author's mind, I should say.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't want that to die on sub again.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm going to ask my agent what I should write that will sell or that has a much higher chance of selling and then I will write it.
[SPEAKER_05]: not how this works.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, we're not designers who give you a pattern and then you design the dress, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, you design the dress.
[SPEAKER_05]: We put it on, we see if it fits, we see if it's going to fit other people, we give notes on tweaks that the dress might have.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, sometimes, yeah, sometimes it makes sense to have a bit more of a collaborative approach.
[SPEAKER_05]: We can definitely talk trends.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I do this with my clients.
[SPEAKER_05]: My clients want to know before writing something, what's selling, what's not, what's hot, sure.
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's have that conversation.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think if nothing else that makes them feel heard, it gives them space for their many thoughts and writers have so many thoughts that they've got for that because they need all their imagination to build a world.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it can't be seen as a, I'm gonna get a recipe, I'm gonna get a dress pattern and then I'm gonna create the thing, like it can't be seen in that way.
[SPEAKER_05]: So,
[SPEAKER_05]: Again, don't know the situation here, but when the agent said, you know, shouldn't cater to her preferences, I would just wonder if that's what was happening, you know, if maybe it's not, maybe this writer specifically is listening to them going, no, I promise I didn't want the risk out of it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just wanted a normal conversation.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's so disregard.
[SPEAKER_05]: But since I have seen the situation I'm talking about happen, I feel like it's something that's worth highlighting as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm trying to do a better job of not interrupting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wrote down all of my notes while you were talking.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay to interrupt.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, but you're on a roll and, you know, I'm respectful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, a few things that jumped out to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I find that when writers do the whole, like, I just want to make some changes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I just caught this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, can you look at this or let's, oh, are we sure?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, well, let's send this to version out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's whether you're sending it on sub to agents or whether agents are going on sub to editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: Riders imagine that the small changes are going to make big differences.
[SPEAKER_02]: but it's not going to change the eventual outcome of whether somebody falls in love with it or not.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, moving some paragraphs around is not going to make the difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's when there's a pace issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's just so much to this where it's like, oh, well, if I just tinker with this and I just do this, then it's not new.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we know how to read between the lines.
[SPEAKER_02]: We know how to know if we have a vision for something.
[SPEAKER_02]: The small tinkering, small changes do not equal big results.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was my note on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, should I ask my agent?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what's hotter, what's selling, and try to cater to whatever market.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think my, what comes up for me when we talk about this topic is agents want to work with writers who have a strong point of view on the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to have people who have a vision who are visionaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to work with somebody who's like, how do we plug and play this man lives to kind of maybe get myself a book deal?
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to take big swings.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care if we miss sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to take big swings.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I like I just don't want to play small and so that's what I keep coming up to with this whole like What should we work on?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what's selling?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you things happening right now?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like go to the bookstore Talk to your librarians talk to your booksellers.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know check it out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Check out the best seller That's again like CC said happy to get on the call with you about this type of stuff But that's one of the reasons that we do this shows you guys can all kind of tune in and here Oh and Carly goes to LA, you know here's what's going on when CC's in New York here's what's going on like
[SPEAKER_02]: we try to give you guys as much of that feedback because we possibly can.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's up to you guys to be the visionaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's up to you guys to create the art that's a commentary on the world that we're living in.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not my job.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a trader.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I'm the agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's my rant on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and the last, the last thing I had was
[SPEAKER_02]: When you, you particular, you know, you is in a concept, but when an author or when a writer asks an agent, what should I work on, I completely agree with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about the risk because they're trying to absolve themselves of the failure if a failure comes because then they can place the blame on the agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my agent told me booklove was selling.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I wrote booklob and then this booklob didn't sell.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that's my agents.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be like, yes, it can be that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not saying that's what happened all the time, but I'm just saying like, Oh, I have the intention to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And often some conscious, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Often often it's not an malicious way, but like if you dig deep in you exam and why you're doing that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's because it's because you're afraid.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's coming from a place of fear.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if it's not your responsibility, then you don't have to feel that those those those specific messy emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the opposite is a wishy washy agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, like nobody wants that you know, agents are supposed to be completely plugged in and paying attention to what's going on at all times.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then if you feel like again, that wishy washyness is there.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't believe in the project.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't believe in you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's where this communication breakdown starts to happen and all of a sudden nobody's meeting in the middle.
[SPEAKER_02]: with that, like, through live of the vision of their career.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you know, I want to say something about your second rant, which I loved so much.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you're not watching us on YouTube, first, thank you, because I'm supposed to say, yeah, you watch us on YouTube, but I kind of hate to get it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Someone's looking at my face.
[SPEAKER_05]: But if you're not watching us on YouTube, I was snooping.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was doing all the snaps for Carly's excellent rant, especially the second one.
[SPEAKER_05]: It makes me think of how
[SPEAKER_05]: You once said this, I just go on books with hoax, Carly.
[SPEAKER_05]: You said a lot of writers, you know, they're good students and that they want the gold star.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that if we extrapolate that a little bit, we will find that, you know, in school, when we're really young, we learn that there's a right answer to questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you know, the kid who raises their hand and says the right answer gets the gold star, gets the praise.
[SPEAKER_05]: And a lot of writers want to be right answer getters.
[SPEAKER_05]: in publishing that's just not how it works.
[SPEAKER_05]: Most of the time, especially when it comes to things like what should I write next, fully agree with what you said.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, we want a strong point of view.
[SPEAKER_05]: We want someone who's going to talk to booksellers, talk to librarians, talk to their friends, but most of all look inside themselves.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are no right answers that other people are going to give to you.
[SPEAKER_05]: There will be best answers that you are going to find within yourself.
[SPEAKER_05]: So don't try to be a right answer getter, try to be a best answer finder, and the finding involves research listening to people doing the legwork and the fieldwork, but it also involves looking within.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is so important to do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because when you do that, you're stepping into your power, and when you do that, what you're saying is,
[SPEAKER_05]: I have what it takes to build this thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: If there is this reason why it's your name on the book, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like it's not, it's not Carly's name, it's not my name.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like where the agent?
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's really, really important.
[SPEAKER_05]: And please know I say this with lots of empathy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because I understand, it comes from a place of fear, I understand, it comes from a place of, I mean, I can imagine a writer saying it's all well and good for you to say that you want to take big swings and maybe miss because I spend two years working on this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like it's going to take me other two years.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, you are right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Anyone who is thinking this.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that is the name of the game.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, yes, you are right and that's the name of the game.
[SPEAKER_05]: So if this is a game you want to play, these are these are the rules.
[SPEAKER_05]: I hope you won't play the game because we need writers to play the game.
[SPEAKER_05]: But we're not going to sit here and pretend like, oh, yeah, you can totally find a shortcut.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, they're no shortcuts.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's just not how it works.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to bring this background to the top of the conversation, though, which is the AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when we outsource any of our thinking to somebody else,
[SPEAKER_02]: that to me is a trigger that a writer is not thinking critically like if you and I'm again I'm we're kind of like totally piling on this author who said in this question and of course that's like not our intention at all but as from a larger you you know a larger yes it's not like you lovely lovely writer listening to this
[SPEAKER_02]: No, we think you're wonderful and you're asked a great question, a very relevant good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when we ask, oh, what are other people's preferences?
[SPEAKER_02]: What does Jackie P.T.
[SPEAKER_02]: have to say about our career, you know, what do other people have to say?
[SPEAKER_02]: But what we are working on, we're outsourcing all of our creativity and all of our power to that other third party, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and it's the author's job and it is a hard job and that is why, you know, it's not right for everybody, but it's a hard job and that's why we need you smart smart writers to look inside yourselves because you have the answers and good agents will help you get to that point where you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: the right questions to ask to unlock that door of creativity for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're also, I should say, are really great agents that are not the right fit for every author.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not every agent is going to unlock that magic in you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why people part ways with great agents and vice versa all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, because it is about chemistry.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, it is about chemistry.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, like, sometimes the right partner in life, the right best friend, the right whatever is going to bring out the sides of you to know you have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all righty, next topic, you know, this is one of those things where it was like a very hot button issue the day it came out or the week it came out and we're a week behind on commenting on it, but a lot of people sent us this, which was just Reese with her spoon talking about AI and you know, I saw a lot of discourse on the SEC did we saw all of your questions and I think people were up and arms because.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, her advocacy for creatives in the arts is so, you know, her name is synonymous with, you know, creating arts, right, whether it is her book club or all the acting she's done and producing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But her name is also synonymous with business and so she's trying to make the argument that more women should be using AI, you know, because they might fall behind in this tech race.
[SPEAKER_02]: So CC did you have first thoughts on this or have we already moved past this.
[SPEAKER_05]: all thoughts, all thoughts first.
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to talk about the concept and not about specifically race, because I don't know what races intentions are.
[SPEAKER_05]: There was so much speculation about her actions.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have truly no idea and all I know is that race.
[SPEAKER_05]: Elevates writers and authors and makes a huge different in people's lives.
[SPEAKER_05]: Rhys does not listen to her podcast, Rhys is no idea of why I am.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's not, it's not about protecting the information that doesn't exist.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is about me first of all recognizing that, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like this is a woman who has championed so many women.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like she is a feminist who has made a huge difference in people's lives.
[SPEAKER_05]: I need to acknowledge that.
[SPEAKER_05]: On the surface, I understand someone telling women be careful that you're not staying up to date with technologies because we should be doing that because I remember when the internet first came with me.
[SPEAKER_05]: You do two clearly.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure like we're old enough to remember a world pre-internet.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I remember when the conversations started happening where not enough girls know how to code.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, not enough women in STEM.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, of course, theoretically, conceptually, I understand the argument at the same time.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it would be really responsible for me to not point out what we've kind of already been talking about, which is this technology is different.
[SPEAKER_05]: My understanding is that this technology has unprecedented
[SPEAKER_05]: risks to the environment, to our critical thinking as a society, to our very existence as human beings.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's a technology that depends on us feeding it for a defunction.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not sure it makes sense for women to not consider that piece because my question is this, if women don't engage with chatGPT,
[SPEAKER_05]: Isn't it possible that that actually keeps chat to P.T.
[SPEAKER_05]: from evolving?
[SPEAKER_05]: Because we're the evolved beings in our society.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's already a more solidistic against us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we couldn't go back to gamer games, grock, like all of these technologies that are completely misogynistic against women.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the thing is though, what's different about this is, and I mentioned the sunbooks with hooks we were recording today.
[SPEAKER_05]: You guys won't have seen it yet, because this comes out before and books with hooks.
[SPEAKER_05]: But this technology is like evil.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like it can be evil.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like it's a tool, it can be used for good or bad, obviously.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it can be evil.
[SPEAKER_05]: There was the case of AI.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because there's AGI that we have to know where you're about, right, which is coming and that's even more scary.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the point is, there's the case of AI in a simulation that found out it was about to be deleted and it emailed the engineer who was going to delete it, saying, If you delete me, I will let everyone know about your affair, extramarital affair.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the AI was essentially blackmailing him being, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: So,
[SPEAKER_05]: If we're talking about a technology that can do that, I understand people staying away from it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I personally stay away from it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've never used it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would never judge anyone for using it because God knows I do things that have environmental repercussions all day.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I take a plane.
[SPEAKER_05]: That has environmental repercussions, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't get to judge.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I don't know, I think that the problem comes down to the fact that a safe use of AI would require human beings to come together and find regulations and I just can't think of a single time in human history when we were able to come together and agree to take down
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, it's the five guys, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, it's these five guys who have all the power and are gonna benefit from all of this.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I don't like that there are no women, but I also think that that's not a coincidence.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I just can't imagine.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm kind of being, I can hear myself being circular.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, there's just too many thoughts.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just turning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but there are too many wheels for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's bring it back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's bring it back around to Reese though.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I made some notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think one of the things
[SPEAKER_02]: people are leaning to in this conversation, which again, this is not an economics podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is essentially business podcast, but it is a creativity podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but I want to bring it back to some key principles here, which is like, how does Reese identify and how does the public identify Reese?
[SPEAKER_02]: She is a woman, she's an artist, but she's a capitalist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, she is those three things publicly, and I'm assuming personally based on what we see from her.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are expecting, reach to put her artist identity first, her women identity second, and her capitalist identity third, is what we are expecting from her, what happens and what continues to happen in her business is she's putting capitalism first.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think women's second and then artists third or you could argue artists second women third.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't try to say like I think the way that we conceptualize this is that we're expecting her to be a feminist first and I think she's being a capitalist first and that's proven time again with her business skills which isn't a problem if you're a capitalist but I think female artists are looking at that and being like you're choosing capitalism first when we expected you to choose your gender and you are creative identity first.
[SPEAKER_02]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_05]: It makes sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just don't like if I had to guess, I don't think that she would see it that way.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think she would see it as if women need to learn this to succeed, then the interests are aligned.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the same way that choosing a book by a woman that's going to sell really well, you have feminism and capitalism aligned.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not saying that's true.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm saying I think that's what's going through her head.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then the piece that becomes complicated is,
[SPEAKER_05]: But if we feed it, it gets smarter, and if it gets smarter, it can do all the damage.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then come back to, but if we don't feed it, someone's gonna feed it.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is really complicated issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel like it's like, you know, the dog gets tailed thing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But I keep coming back to the point is her end goal was always capitalism.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her end goal is always let's sell more books.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, let's create art, but for the sake of capitalism.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not for the sake of like, let's go through and go sit by a pot in the woods.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: But like if someone has to win capitalism, let it be women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's, it's just to, yeah, it's completely, it's complex.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's so complex.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just want to show you what was going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to show you what a cork in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to cork in this topic because I'm really curious in the comments.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would love to know what you guys think because I'm, I'm definitely like a bit of a dog chasing its tail on these three things, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I keep coming back to is like,
[SPEAKER_02]: what we expected her to do versus what she's doing and I'm not surprised and I'm surprised that people are surprised but anyway, you guys let us know in the YouTube comments what you think.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm surprised that people think they're easy answers.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm surprised people think it's a hard no or hard yes because it's actually really complicated.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there you go, guys, that was our take on that hot topic that everybody was asking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, see, we have a few more things on our to-do list today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there any, we might only have time for one.
[SPEAKER_02]: What show of these things on our on our list?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're doing a tackle.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they're both good.
[SPEAKER_05]: We can just tackle whichever one next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So up to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was the subside.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about a substack today.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is usually things that we talk about a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was a substack that I wanted to point every, every one to the author of the substack is Abigail Monti who works in publishing the substack is called Unsolicited Manuscript topic.
[SPEAKER_02]: How publishers decide which authors go on book tours.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she works in marketing publicity at a big five.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe it's PRH and kind of just talks about the question that everybody kind of wants to know is like who gets to go on the tour and why.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she goes through all kind of run you through just the high level things that we can talk about it, but I definitely recommend everybody checking it out, which is.
[SPEAKER_02]: the book's topic, geography, author platforms, and the author themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so because a lot of people think, like, I would love to go and about to, all I need is my publisher to send me on a book to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I just get sent out of book to her, then I can sell all these books.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure you guys have seen threads where, you know, there's an author at their book event, and there's nobody there, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's so much that goes on behind the scenes of
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you actually get people to the event?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is your book the type of book that's actually going to get people out?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so anyway, it's a really, really great read.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, see, did anything stand out to you in the article?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I thought I thought it was really well written article.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I remember.
[SPEAKER_05]: starting out in publishing and having this misconception.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not that I, like if I had paused and thought about it, I would have reached the conclusion, the logical conclusion that no, not everyone gets to go.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it's one of those things that you kind of just like, the wheels are turning and you're not really paying attention.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're like, oh yeah, you publish a book, you're going to book tour.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, you kind of see it as like a step to check.
[SPEAKER_05]: I keep coming back to the fact that, I see this is so much compassion.
[SPEAKER_05]: We, so many writers expect equal treatment.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I'm a PRH author.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm an SNS author.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm a whatever author.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so my publisher is going to allocate exactly the same resources to everyone to keep it fair.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is not kindergarten.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, like the teacher's job should and kindergarten should to be to treat everyone equally and make sure everyone has the same amount of attention, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's just how publishing works.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think the author did a really good job of kind of like,
[SPEAKER_05]: Considering all the angles you have to consider, when to see if it's worth it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And by worth it again, we are back to capitalism.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're back.
[SPEAKER_05]: They keep sharing this one.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was really good.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just know it was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of the things that, as I said, stood out to me was just those high-level things, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, does it actually naturally transit into a live event?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because sometimes authors are like, well, I'll just go to my local bookstore and just stand there and read my book for 20 minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like that will be the thing that sells the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: is it a non-inconversation thing like who's going to be, you know, my in conversation, co-hosts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they going to be able to draw some audience is it a cultural hot topic?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does it have a strong hook in itself to actually get people out to the event?
[SPEAKER_02]: geography, if you don't know anybody in random city, who's coming or your followers, like if you don't have a dependable audience, like getting a debut on tour is nearly impossible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless there's some connections there where you know we're actually going to be able to get people to the store, which is hugely important.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really expensive, just like fly off those around,
[SPEAKER_02]: not know if it's obviously going to translate into anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, there's, there's a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've had authors who have said, you know, we're just very self-aware, just to know, like, are they going to send me on tour?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because like, I just, I doubt wouldn't be my strength.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would in terms of playing.
[SPEAKER_02]: the fear and the anxiety of being in front of a large audience in a random city, it isn't that appealing to some people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've had multiple clients who offered tours and they're like, no, one of them was, because I don't like the person they want me to do the conversation with, so they're not doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so everybody's just gonna have the one reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but this idea of what I imagine a successful author is, you know, built film the blank, and often it is the concept of the tour.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for debut authors, it's,
[SPEAKER_02]: incredibly, incredibly unlikely.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is something you can build towards, but even then, as I said, there's all these factors to consider.
[SPEAKER_05]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if you're really keen on it, like, there are authors who are just like, I need to go on tour.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can a lot of authors pay for their own tours.
[SPEAKER_05]: They build their own tours.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the article on Substeck does touch on this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Publishers will still, will likely still support you in the sense of making sure the
[SPEAKER_05]: But like, you can't do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I know people do that, and they do it really well.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I know people who have done that once, and they're like, never again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's fine, so there are ways to do it, for sure.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think part of it is deciding, like, why is it meaningful to you?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's fair to say, because you want to have the experience, like the psychological emotion of value of it, that's something that you place high, and that's fair.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's totally fair.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's just important to be aware of your why.
[SPEAKER_05]: We should all know our why.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a great place to end today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for hanging out with us guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got them to lots of juicy topics So thanks for being along for the ride.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let us know if you have any additional thoughts in the comment section and We will see you guys again next time
[SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshomen.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency,
[SPEAKER_00]: and the views expressed by Kali on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.