WEBVTT 00:00.559 --> 00:06.413 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey everybody, welcome to a brand new episode of Geek from the Multiverse. 00:06.473 --> 00:10.162 [SPEAKER_02]: We have an evolved episode coming right now. 00:11.440 --> 00:14.621 [SPEAKER_02]: And we are gonna be talking about the real F word. 00:14.842 --> 00:17.983 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think everyone thinks they know what the real F word is. 00:18.543 --> 00:20.824 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it just comes easy and automatic. 00:21.524 --> 00:24.586 [SPEAKER_02]: But there is another F word that we're gonna be talking about. 00:24.906 --> 00:29.448 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not one that's very easy to say and people generally tend not to do it. 00:29.968 --> 00:31.209 [SPEAKER_02]: It's called forgiveness. 00:31.469 --> 00:31.929 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. 00:32.549 --> 00:37.191 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not doing a soft, just let it go version of forgiveness. 00:37.211 --> 00:38.512 [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about the real thing. 00:40.115 --> 00:40.998 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get into it. 01:00.942 --> 01:02.503 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, what's going on, everybody? 01:02.703 --> 01:04.204 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that evolved song. 01:04.424 --> 01:08.347 [SPEAKER_03]: Every time we do that, I mean, I really am glad that nobody watches us. 01:08.447 --> 01:09.828 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't really do. 01:09.928 --> 01:11.329 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, one day we'll be on video. 01:11.349 --> 01:12.650 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't even know what I do. 01:12.670 --> 01:15.512 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll like and laugh at us and fair enough, fair enough. 01:15.572 --> 01:15.772 [SPEAKER_02]: But... 01:16.908 --> 01:22.751 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome again to this is episode 164 John. 01:22.851 --> 01:45.743 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe that we're on this, but welcome to Geek from the Multiverse and that's right, you know, usually about once a month we do our revolve episodes and the whole premise and the whole mission of these evolve episodes that we do is just to help you become a better person one step at a time 01:47.102 --> 01:52.983 [SPEAKER_02]: and to evolve, adapt, and overcome just like, you know, just like this song. 01:53.043 --> 02:00.024 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I am one of your hosts, Grumpy Beard, with me as always, is get them to stage. 02:00.124 --> 02:13.567 [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone, you know, I find this interesting, Matt too, because I will say before we do our CTAs, I dabbled in whatnot, I don't know if you know what not is, roughly, okay. 02:16.570 --> 02:18.372 [SPEAKER_03]: kind of like eBay, but a little bit quicker than that. 02:19.013 --> 02:20.795 [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, it's like live and all this stuff. 02:20.815 --> 02:26.481 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I, you know, I put my name as capital stations and they're like, well, they're like, that's a really interesting name. 02:26.501 --> 02:27.262 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, yeah, it's French. 02:29.084 --> 02:31.266 [SPEAKER_03]: They start laughing and then, you know, I keep going on about it. 02:31.286 --> 02:36.812 [SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, I just, it's just funny because like every, every time with whatnot, it's. 02:37.788 --> 02:48.833 [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting enough where you could buy like all these different things on there, but at the same time, yes, I'm going to say it, because your boy here, you know, I know Matt is not a big fan of it, but I'm not saying he wouldn't be at some point. 02:48.873 --> 02:49.794 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe maybe not. 02:49.934 --> 02:54.636 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, but yes, I was looking at like, you know, Pokemon cards and Matt's like, Pokemon! 02:56.003 --> 03:05.498 [SPEAKER_03]: He's like, okay, man, there you go, there you go, there you go, you know, and the funny thing is that was like, you know, I was like looking up, you know, trying to figure out who couldn't like give me the Pokemon cards. 03:05.518 --> 03:10.486 [SPEAKER_03]: I was looking for and, you know, like, oh, I was like, hey, can I have like this, this is then they're like, 03:12.108 --> 03:25.999 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we really don't have that, but you can try this next one and so I kept going through and then after a while I was like, this is really addicting and I'm like this is not something I really wanted to do because buddy Let's just say that by the end I was done like it was like one night of it. 03:26.860 --> 03:27.320 [SPEAKER_00]: It was banned. 03:27.721 --> 03:30.082 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like you want to talk about an addiction 03:31.376 --> 03:32.156 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't do whatnot. 03:32.176 --> 03:33.037 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna tell you that right now. 03:33.077 --> 03:38.118 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't do it because it's it's not worth your time And you can you can definitely spend some money that you should be spending. 03:38.138 --> 03:41.379 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a little bit of saying Well, you know, it'd be great if I had the money to spend it. 03:41.980 --> 03:48.702 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just saying just if I was anybody so again whoever's listening If you sure if you have that money, go for it. 03:48.942 --> 03:55.164 [SPEAKER_03]: I will say that do it if you want to if you don't don't fucking do it That's a little money to say all right, so 03:56.672 --> 04:02.797 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so again, welcome to our podcast here, GFT and podcast episode 164. 04:03.497 --> 04:09.262 [SPEAKER_02]: And we are diving into the real F word. 04:09.702 --> 04:18.549 [SPEAKER_02]: But real quick, like we do want to give you, you know, we do want to ask for that fist bump, which is our follow interact, subscribe. 04:18.889 --> 04:19.850 [SPEAKER_02]: This is as sharing. 04:19.870 --> 04:20.310 [SPEAKER_02]: It's weird. 04:21.691 --> 04:23.473 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where this, I mean, this is just, 04:24.153 --> 04:25.473 [SPEAKER_02]: Share and talk about the show. 04:25.574 --> 04:25.954 [SPEAKER_02]: No, no. 04:26.234 --> 04:27.454 [SPEAKER_02]: How are your damn friends? 04:27.474 --> 04:28.034 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what it is. 04:28.174 --> 04:28.935 [SPEAKER_03]: Your damn friends. 04:28.955 --> 04:32.416 [SPEAKER_02]: So follow, interact, subscribe, and tell your damn friends. 04:32.436 --> 04:33.616 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell your damn friends. 04:34.736 --> 04:42.239 [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, we are on YouTube, you know, it's more of the audio portion because we don't do video just quite yet. 04:43.240 --> 04:45.643 [SPEAKER_02]: But we are in YouTube, we're in Spotify, we're on Apple. 04:45.723 --> 04:49.508 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're on like 40 different podcasts platforms. 04:49.728 --> 04:51.150 [SPEAKER_03]: Point is, you can listen to us. 04:51.330 --> 04:52.191 [SPEAKER_02]: You can listen to us. 04:52.211 --> 04:59.320 [SPEAKER_02]: You can go right to our website and all of our full episodes are on our podcast page, there on the website. 05:00.181 --> 05:18.710 [SPEAKER_02]: uh... we have a blog we have our merch door we have a whole media page i mean there's a whole lot more you can do especially you like you can visit our evolved page and you know john and i actually been talking about some additions that we want to do and i won't mention it right now john but i did i could i um 05:19.625 --> 05:25.653 [SPEAKER_02]: We want to add, I mean, I'll briefly say it, but I'm not going to fully define it, but we want to add material. 05:25.933 --> 05:33.022 [SPEAKER_02]: We want to add more resources to that evolved page that will help guide, I guess. 05:34.078 --> 05:41.983 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and the biggest thing about that, too, is because, you know, when man I wanted to do evolve, I mean, we wanted to basically get back to the community in some way that we can. 05:42.003 --> 05:57.152 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we're not, you know, full on experts in all of this, but, you know, trying to be as hopefully knowledgeable and trying to give you guys some sort of, you know, maybe guide, right, to figure out what it is that you need to, you know, either learn or maybe share with a 06:01.975 --> 06:14.118 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, dive into, you know, what a ball of his and hopefully, you know, kind of spread that word to me because like it's literally the sides like our main podcast like it's kind of like our side project that we've been trying to really promote it. 06:14.138 --> 06:30.902 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a that that shareable content like these episodes are not meant to just keep to yourself like we really do need you to share out the episodes when we get closer to actually having these, you know, materials that we want to do for the evolve page. 06:31.682 --> 07:00.580 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a whole resource fault you can you can click on different, you know, you can look at all the resources that we have there, but we really wanted to do some like guides that you could you could actually print out and just like, hey, I'm thinking of you here, you know, here's just like little resource that I found on, you know, on this random website, but it's just the whole point of this is like we just want to help and and be that resource for people that. 07:01.912 --> 07:09.819 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're just listening to our podcast and you've just been listening and then all of a sudden we do and you've all of episode that really connects with what you're dealing with. 07:10.379 --> 07:10.960 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the point. 07:12.023 --> 07:15.884 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, you know, and for us, it's like I said, it's something that we're passionate about. 07:15.944 --> 07:20.105 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we both come from mental health backgrounds as well as, you know, addiction in that sense. 07:20.145 --> 07:35.270 [SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, again, we're not, we're not claiming to be, you know, subject matter experts, you know, we're basically saying is, you know, we're just trying to help in any way that we can, you know, we're trying to get back in in some ways to, you know, our community or even just in general, because at the same time. 07:36.070 --> 07:54.329 [SPEAKER_03]: you know without you guys is supporting and everything else that we you know that we do you know it we just we feel like we need to you know try to give back as much as we can because again you know being local to yes we're gonna say new hamster okay everyone's like what the house new hamster is that a random city no it's an actual state to learn geography is all i got to say right now 07:54.809 --> 08:05.243 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, so my point is we're not, it's not like we're living in California, it's not like we're living in some big ass city or big, you know, state or whatever, you know, we're we're small, right, but we're strong. 08:05.344 --> 08:11.512 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the whole point of what we're trying to do is we're trying to make sure that you guys especially geeks in general too, you know. 08:12.293 --> 08:13.614 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not just about everyday people. 08:13.634 --> 08:22.501 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we are a gig culture podcast, but at the same time, we want to make sure that anybody who does listen or anything like this, you have a resource. 08:22.921 --> 08:28.385 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not alone in this and that you don't feel like you have to live through life by yourself. 08:28.405 --> 08:29.986 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, because she had to think about it. 08:30.006 --> 08:31.607 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, man, and I do this podcast together. 08:31.627 --> 08:33.208 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I couldn't do this by myself. 08:33.729 --> 08:37.011 [SPEAKER_02]: That's like, I sure as shit know that you could do this by yourself. 08:37.031 --> 08:37.852 [SPEAKER_03]: That's for day of short. 08:39.028 --> 08:50.273 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, but it was a good to say nothing, but I know what you were thinking because he's like, yeah, you actually took the words right out of my mouth, but yeah, no, and moving on to the good old F word. 08:51.534 --> 08:52.174 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to run. 08:52.514 --> 08:53.555 [SPEAKER_02]: What go if you saw. 08:54.355 --> 08:56.616 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, you know, that's pretty, that's pretty cool. 08:56.877 --> 09:07.662 [SPEAKER_02]: I had to say, I just say, but yeah, we we are talking about the real F word and I didn't just go, you know, tell John to go F himself, you know, we we are not talking about the word fuck. 09:08.522 --> 09:33.174 [SPEAKER_02]: uh... we will probably say we will probably say it a few times or we had said it a few times but um... we are talking about forgiveness and all that ready the hardest thing for men to probably do it's probably the the hardest thing for anybody to do no it is it is the right thing to do but i think if we're being completely honest 09:35.197 --> 09:36.438 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm being completely honest. 09:36.999 --> 09:39.781 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if this staying angry is way easier. 09:40.542 --> 09:42.723 [SPEAKER_02]: Like way way way, Mr. Grumpy Bear to say. 09:42.743 --> 09:43.844 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 09:43.984 --> 09:44.525 [SPEAKER_03]: It's way to go. 09:44.985 --> 09:46.286 [SPEAKER_02]: It's way easier and I'll tell you why. 09:46.306 --> 09:49.289 [SPEAKER_02]: Because anger gives you energy. 09:49.569 --> 09:52.351 [SPEAKER_02]: It gives you a certain level of clarity. 09:53.352 --> 09:56.434 [SPEAKER_02]: It gives you someone to blame, and he's like, John. 09:56.814 --> 10:03.759 [SPEAKER_02]: And when you take this idea of forgiveness, it strips away all of that. 10:04.580 --> 10:18.569 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there is a reason why people hold on to hurt longer than they would hold on to peace because when you feel hurt, it can feel justified. 10:23.277 --> 10:36.268 [SPEAKER_02]: something that's earned and when you talk about, you know, and we're going to talk, I mean, we're going to go deep into forgiveness, but when you put forgiveness into this equation, forgiveness is work. 10:37.289 --> 10:40.611 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not something that you just kind of like, hey, I have for 10:48.068 --> 10:48.929 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't do the work. 10:49.289 --> 10:52.432 [SPEAKER_03]: No, my first question is man, what was that impression you did? 10:52.833 --> 10:59.919 [SPEAKER_03]: Because I couldn't really take you seriously in that moment, but I forgave you like you had to try out. 11:00.340 --> 11:02.922 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's okay, it was, it was for dramatic effect. 11:02.982 --> 11:05.725 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's, it's that idea of like, well, I forgive you. 11:05.745 --> 11:06.525 [SPEAKER_02]: But... 11:08.425 --> 11:12.506 [SPEAKER_03]: But, yeah, there's always a butt and you know, and there's the other thing, right? 11:12.586 --> 11:16.907 [SPEAKER_03]: So yes, anger can be loud and immediate as well as kind of addictive, right? 11:16.927 --> 11:19.487 [SPEAKER_03]: It keeps the story alive, right? 11:19.507 --> 11:24.369 [SPEAKER_03]: And so forgiveness is quiet, slow, and feels like you're letting something go before you're ready. 11:24.929 --> 11:30.050 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I feel like, especially with forgiveness, you know, it is a journey because here's the other thing. 11:30.110 --> 11:35.311 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, when you think about forgiveness here, also it's affecting someone's trust. 11:36.465 --> 12:05.902 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, because let's say like sure that you do the same thing over and over and over and over again, and then, you know, they're not trusting you and you're it's so like sure forgiveness, it's always it is a longer journey, it's not something that, you know, can feel like immediate because like, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've for, you know, I have to give forgiveness to my wife for things that I've done, and then it takes like almost all day and then and then finally maybe where we're good and, you know, in a good spot, but 12:06.989 --> 12:16.113 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's also, and it kind of sucks, too, because you can also throw on the word guilt, because forgiveness and guilt can kind of go side of the tide. 12:16.774 --> 12:32.181 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's the other thing is like, you know, when you're, you know, it's almost a realization of realizing that you're putting in this time in the effort for, you know, forgiving somebody, and that's the other thing is like, you know, you look at, for example, like the 12 steps. 12:32.221 --> 12:33.442 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just using it as an example. 12:34.161 --> 12:36.244 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, part of it is forgiveness. 12:36.725 --> 12:37.947 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to forgive. 12:37.967 --> 12:42.353 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it's not just like, you know, I think one of the steps is forgiving yourself. 12:42.653 --> 12:48.282 [SPEAKER_02]: And like there's a whole other step where you're meant to like make a list of everybody that you had wrong. 12:49.163 --> 12:51.084 [SPEAKER_02]: you had wronged or had grievances with. 12:51.464 --> 12:57.507 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're meant to go to every single, whether it's five people or whether it's 200 people. 12:57.867 --> 13:03.310 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're meant to go through your entire list of everybody that you've ever lied to, wronged. 13:03.690 --> 13:05.451 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a grievance with or anything. 13:05.471 --> 13:08.753 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're meant to like, hey, I'm sorry for what I did. 13:08.773 --> 13:11.394 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry for what, and that's all they were forgiven. 13:11.414 --> 13:13.936 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it's work, it's not easy. 13:18.993 --> 13:22.195 [SPEAKER_02]: You can struggle with forgiving something or some one. 13:23.717 --> 13:27.659 [SPEAKER_02]: But I doubt there's a lot of people struggling to stay mad. 13:28.960 --> 13:31.622 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's true, that's probably a very true statement. 13:31.702 --> 13:39.228 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and the other thing is too is that, you know, forgiveness is, and this is where I'm gonna go with this too. 13:39.668 --> 13:41.510 [SPEAKER_03]: So when we talk about a generation thing too, 13:42.454 --> 13:45.175 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're living in an age of instant gratification. 13:45.676 --> 14:06.146 [SPEAKER_02]: For goodness is not instant gratification, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 14:11.998 --> 14:26.645 [SPEAKER_02]: I was this, like, you were in the right, like I was in the wrong, like you could do your forgiveness thing all all together, but the other person is the one that has to be like, yeah, I forgive you. 14:27.585 --> 14:31.507 [SPEAKER_02]: Or that might never, I mean, that might take years or may never happen. 14:31.887 --> 14:32.388 [SPEAKER_03]: That's true. 14:32.708 --> 14:39.251 [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, and the other thing is too, depending on, you know, like you're saying about like who you're forgiving, you know. 14:40.136 --> 14:43.423 [SPEAKER_03]: The other big piece to this too is that, you know, and I'll say it. 14:43.443 --> 14:45.347 [SPEAKER_03]: It's much easier to stay angry with a coworker. 14:46.481 --> 14:48.222 [SPEAKER_03]: then it would be to be still angry with you. 14:48.242 --> 14:50.643 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's easier to say angry at a co-host. 14:52.203 --> 14:54.944 [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's like you, John, but it's true, though. 14:54.964 --> 15:09.550 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, because it depends on that level of relationship that you have with that person because, you know, sure, it might be easier to say, hey, man, I, I, I, I, I'm sorry that I didn't, you know, follow up on that, you know, TPS report, you know, you know, like that. 15:09.831 --> 15:11.331 [SPEAKER_03]: Then basically saying, do you know what I'm like? 15:11.591 --> 15:13.332 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to need you to come in on Saturday. 15:13.352 --> 15:14.472 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:14.533 --> 15:15.573 [SPEAKER_02]: Do that, yeah, that'd be great. 15:15.993 --> 15:39.833 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, but it's true though because it's like the depending on your relationships with individuals that's, you know, whether or not you want to work on that forgiveness part because, again, the more people that you care about, of course, the forgiveness part is going to be a lot harder than it would be for random co-workers, somebody like that or a host or a code, but no, and then again, so like the tension, right? 15:39.953 --> 15:40.714 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because 15:41.912 --> 15:47.854 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the thing is that, you know, the easier in the moment, it's usually the thing that keeps you stuck the longest. 15:48.154 --> 15:51.036 [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody struggles to stay man, you know, people struggle to stop. 15:52.036 --> 16:07.222 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so you're right, because you know, when you always say like, man, I can feel that tension in the room where, you know, man, I, you know, cut like butter, you know, there's a bunch of tent, I think I, yeah, I don't remember the damn quote now, but basically, you know, when you when you think of the word tension. 16:08.227 --> 16:15.652 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, it's very hard to sit in a room and you know that you basically, I'll say it and I guess I'm going to use the real effort this time. 16:16.372 --> 16:27.920 [SPEAKER_03]: You you fucked up, okay, like there is tension, let's say, because you're either seeing that person, you know, like they're they're body language, they're they're what they're saying and they're tone of how they're saying it and you can feel that. 16:28.915 --> 16:31.818 [SPEAKER_03]: And you can definitely hear it for sure and look at it. 16:31.878 --> 16:44.411 [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, if you're willing to put in that work and say, hey, you know, I'm sorry for what I did, you know, I'm sorry that I burnt the toast, you know, and I'm sorry that I did all this, and then they go, yeah, I can't forgive you for that brother. 16:44.591 --> 16:46.072 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, just get out of my face. 16:46.313 --> 16:46.493 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 16:46.873 --> 16:49.295 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, then you're like, well, shit, what do I do now? 16:49.375 --> 16:51.297 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, maybe not burn the toast next time. 16:51.317 --> 16:51.797 [SPEAKER_03]: That'd be great. 16:52.818 --> 16:53.719 [SPEAKER_03]: You're like, wait a minute. 16:53.739 --> 16:55.060 [SPEAKER_02]: This is like a third fucking time. 16:55.180 --> 16:56.441 [SPEAKER_02]: So you just stop doing it. 16:56.481 --> 16:57.582 [SPEAKER_03]: Not burning the toast, man. 16:58.323 --> 16:59.164 [SPEAKER_03]: No, but it's true, baby. 16:59.184 --> 17:01.686 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, because that's the thing where forgiveness is just. 17:02.871 --> 17:04.913 [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's just like every other word. 17:04.933 --> 17:06.274 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we've ever talked about. 17:06.374 --> 17:08.916 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just, it's a very hard concept, too. 17:08.956 --> 17:09.796 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very hard concept. 17:09.816 --> 17:10.457 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, 10. 17:10.537 --> 17:15.761 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's our first question is like, why is forgiveness so damn hard? 17:15.961 --> 17:21.465 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's six points here and I think if we just take two at a time, that's why. 17:21.525 --> 17:22.265 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we'd be good. 17:22.285 --> 17:26.829 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll take the first two and, you know, why is forgiveness so damn hard? 17:27.009 --> 17:29.871 [SPEAKER_02]: And I honestly, I mean, I kind of said this earlier 17:33.094 --> 17:39.476 [SPEAKER_02]: Staying angry is much easier because it requires no transformation. 17:39.516 --> 17:44.158 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you don't have to reflect, grow, or process anything. 17:44.238 --> 18:01.704 [SPEAKER_02]: You can just keep replaying the event that happened and reinforcing why you feel right and feel the way that you do, whereas forgiveness on the other hand requires you to actually 18:04.040 --> 18:23.011 [SPEAKER_02]: with or about that pain right like staying angry is just easy like you can just be angry and it requires almost a little effort absolutely I mean it's probably one of the easiest emotions to get into and anger can give a person like that sense of identity 18:25.628 --> 18:50.878 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, uh, my, well, grumpy beer is more grumpy than angry, but, you know, but it can give, you know, that person, that sense of identity that momentum, like being angry can feel like there's action even when nothing is changing, whereas forgiveness is kind of the opposite of that, like it feel like forgiveness feels like stillness and for a lot of people. 18:52.225 --> 18:55.508 [SPEAKER_02]: when you're in that still quiet moment, right? 18:55.528 --> 19:07.517 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's uncomfortable because it almost forces you to face what's underneath all of that anger and all of those various emotions. 19:07.557 --> 19:18.785 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's just not anger, maybe it's like sadness or depression or whatever you're feeling when you're still in your in that mode of like, I need to forgive this person. 19:19.988 --> 19:38.947 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the uncomfortable thing because now like you have to force you have to face like that event that happened and actually like be the person that's like I understand that this happened but I need to move to that forgiveness 19:40.689 --> 19:44.631 [SPEAKER_02]: And I never mind, I'll just be angry because you're just sitting in your like, well, that's really hunting. 19:44.651 --> 19:49.214 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't do anything about the, you know, the AC or anything, but I mean, it's true because it's a uncomfortable feeling of not knowing. 20:07.744 --> 20:13.428 [SPEAKER_03]: how to, you know, because the other, I was going to say this, like the other thing is you can't control anything. 20:14.008 --> 20:16.410 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you, the one forgiving cannot control this. 20:16.890 --> 20:19.452 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like you gave the ball to the other person. 20:20.073 --> 20:20.873 [SPEAKER_03]: Now it's in their court. 20:21.093 --> 20:22.134 [SPEAKER_03]: Now you have to wait to see. 20:22.314 --> 20:27.938 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I will give an exam, not not a specific example from like minor years or, you know, 20:36.192 --> 20:38.614 [SPEAKER_02]: physically cheated on you with somebody else. 20:39.696 --> 20:51.588 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is that area, I mean, it happens all the time and it happens to, I think it's like, I think the actual statistic and I don't have it in front of me, but it's like, if you took five couples that happens to about three of them. 20:52.851 --> 21:15.905 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's, it's, it's one of those things that happens to a lot of couples where, you know, your, your wife or your husband physically cheats on on on on the, you know, on the partner whoever it is and staying angry as much much easier like you did this, you did that like. 21:17.170 --> 21:18.952 [SPEAKER_02]: I cannot forgive you for doing this. 21:19.452 --> 21:35.588 [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas on the other side, like forgiveness means that you actually have to address the event, the elephant in the room, mind you, of what actually happened and you have to force yourself to move past it. 21:36.567 --> 21:39.409 [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, it's much easier to stay angry, but you're right. 21:39.429 --> 21:43.913 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, most people, I would say, especially in an event like that. 21:44.814 --> 21:46.756 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, many people are going to move forward from that. 21:47.056 --> 21:48.397 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there you're going to stay angry. 21:48.477 --> 21:51.079 [SPEAKER_02]: They'll be like, listen, you and me were done. 21:51.179 --> 21:57.645 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, get you shit, get out and it's one of those things, like, you will never ever talk to that person again. 21:57.685 --> 22:02.489 [SPEAKER_02]: And what sucks is like, if you're in a marriage where kids are involved, 22:05.391 --> 22:30.088 [SPEAKER_02]: That, you know, that happens and now you're like, no, no, I don't care if you are the mother of the pope, like you need to leave you need to get out and you just stay angry and then you you completely like Basically these aren't your kids anymore, like you major choice you made your bed go sleep in that other guys bed, you know what I mean it's like And it's, but that is a common very common thing, I mean you look at divorce, I mean that's pretty much 22:30.468 --> 22:32.370 [SPEAKER_03]: That's pretty much how that goes for the most part. 22:32.430 --> 22:35.132 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, well, you know, Matt's not wrong in that department. 22:35.152 --> 22:37.073 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, when it comes down to stuff like that. 22:37.133 --> 22:46.640 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there were uncontrollable factors that sometimes you just go, how do I, how do I get past it or how do I do with all this? 22:46.680 --> 22:46.880 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, 22:47.661 --> 22:56.705 [SPEAKER_03]: There is no easy answer, it's not like you have a book on, you know, how do I achieve forgiveness for somebody and all this other, no, I mean, if that was the case, shit, then everything would just be easy. 22:56.765 --> 22:59.866 [SPEAKER_02]: I just made, you know, you just pick up the forgiveness for dummies book, right? 22:59.886 --> 23:01.607 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and call it a day. 23:02.107 --> 23:09.391 [SPEAKER_03]: No, but like, you know, kind of moving forward, you know, there's always a protective element to staying hurt, which that is true. 23:10.071 --> 23:15.196 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and if you stay angry, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to risk being vulnerable again, right? 23:15.236 --> 23:20.602 [SPEAKER_03]: For goodness can feel like lowering your defenses, which I would say that is very true for a lot of people. 23:21.543 --> 23:25.707 [SPEAKER_03]: Even when it's actually about internal release, not an external trust. 23:26.447 --> 23:29.290 [SPEAKER_03]: So the other thing is, too, and I think for a lot of people, you know, when you're, 23:30.051 --> 23:47.937 [SPEAKER_03]: You're letting your guard down, you know, and I feel like this is a natural defense mechanism for everybody, you know, when you've been hurt or when you've been, you know, duped or, you know, and all these sure use whatever word you want to use, you know, you're putting yourself out there, you know, and you're you're trying to see. 23:49.040 --> 24:15.163 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, how this is going to go, you know, because you maybe have forgiven so many times and then it just comes back and it bites you in the ass because of the fact that it's happened so many times and so when you're lowering those defenses, you know, it's trying to say, okay, well, am I going to get screwed over again, or am I, you know, is this going to be another outcome that could actually be meaningful or, you know, not be the same reaction as before. 24:16.077 --> 24:22.099 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and that's the hard part of this, too, but, you know, people also often choose anger because it's familiar, right? 24:22.239 --> 24:29.062 [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's, if you've been carrying, you know, something for so long or such a long time, it becomes part of your normal emotional state. 24:29.582 --> 24:33.344 [SPEAKER_03]: So letting it go can feel unfamiliar, almost like losing a piece of yourself. 24:33.884 --> 24:38.006 [SPEAKER_03]: Let it go, let it go, anyway, it's no, I mean, you weren't there, huh? 24:38.026 --> 24:38.726 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, oh, I sure did. 24:38.746 --> 24:40.167 [SPEAKER_03]: If I was going to talk about that, I might as well. 24:40.847 --> 24:43.468 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, no, and it's true because, you know, you, 24:44.868 --> 25:01.304 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's say you were very happy go lucky person and you were giving people left and right, you know, all the time and then it just starts chipping away at you chipping away chipping away and then you'll become into Grumpy beard for just like it and then you turn it to bat dog joking. 25:01.424 --> 25:05.348 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just saying like you get to a point where this is the reason I don't forgive you. 25:05.428 --> 25:06.889 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like I don't forgive you now because no 25:08.531 --> 25:19.560 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, for us, it's like, you know, we're sitting in a reading this, but we're just saying at the end of the day, when you're trying to, you know, forget, you know, some of the stuff that has happened. 25:20.281 --> 25:22.843 [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, it's not, you know, easy to just do. 25:22.903 --> 25:24.945 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, because the other thing is true, right? 25:25.045 --> 25:28.208 [SPEAKER_03]: So you will never, you know, sorry, let me, let me erase this part. 25:28.788 --> 25:31.811 [SPEAKER_03]: You will never forget what happens to you. 25:33.252 --> 25:35.854 [SPEAKER_03]: You can forgive people, would you never forget that piece of it? 25:36.234 --> 25:41.477 [SPEAKER_03]: Because that'll always stay a part of you, but whether or not you choose to let it define you, there we go. 25:42.428 --> 26:07.302 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, that's a different story because that's the thing where, you know, with forgiveness, like sure you can be hurt so many times you can, you know, things can happen, you know, and it really doesn't define you for who you are, but if you let it continue to fester and get you more angry or this and that and then you, you know, you let's say you, you know, you're in a similar situation again, or you see your buddy in a similar situation as you. 26:08.122 --> 26:08.922 [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever, right? 26:09.023 --> 26:11.164 [SPEAKER_03]: Or you start to fester in that. 26:11.304 --> 26:17.847 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like you, you just getting yourself more amped and more angry or for something that again, you don't have any control over. 26:17.867 --> 26:18.848 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know. 26:19.749 --> 26:24.091 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, the, the last two, I'm going to read them together because they kind of fit together. 26:24.231 --> 26:31.155 [SPEAKER_02]: But forgiveness requires emotional effort that anger just doesn't require, right? 26:31.315 --> 26:32.055 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if force is 26:37.478 --> 26:42.741 [SPEAKER_02]: can't be changed and then to make that conscious decision to move forward. 26:43.121 --> 26:53.467 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, kind of what we've already said, but like you have when you when you are looking at forgiveness like you have to make that conscious decision like I'm just going to move forward. 26:54.923 --> 27:15.442 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's that level of effort that most people avoid and I think that there is a a misconception that forgiveness like feels good right away like absolutely not as soon as I forgive this person like it's going to be like a weight lifted off my chest and when it doesn't 27:16.909 --> 27:32.788 [SPEAKER_02]: People will automatically assume, like, oh, I must have done it wrong and they'll, you know, usually default back to anger or whatever emotion that they feel about the event, because at least that emotion feels more natural to them. 27:33.628 --> 27:35.391 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm gonna say this too, we're quick. 27:35.431 --> 27:37.073 [SPEAKER_03]: And now you're gonna talk about this a little bit more. 27:38.141 --> 28:01.566 [SPEAKER_03]: not everybody in the world is going to like you playing in simple right and so when you again the people you care about i mean i know what it hurts when you want to forgive somebody for that but that's the thing where you know when you when you just said you know when you you feel like you didn't do it the right way or you know it just doesn't feel natural or whatever the you know whatever that might be it's 28:04.101 --> 28:25.504 [SPEAKER_03]: you got to think in the long term that you know forgiveness is a journey it's not just something that immediately happens and then okay the world's all great you know great nappy and everything else no i mean it's it's work we've been saying this it's work it's no i forgive you so our you know our relationship is fixed now no no this is how the format would say he'd like i forgive you instead of a bitch 28:26.845 --> 28:45.118 [SPEAKER_02]: No, but I mean, you know, some some some little facts here, you know, I'll just give these real quick, but so there's been research and emotional processing that shows that unresolved anger can increase stress hormone levels like cortisol, which keeps the body in a prolonged state of tension. 28:56.772 --> 29:07.775 [SPEAKER_02]: who, for what, 10, 20, 30, 40 years, no longer talks to a sibling because, guess what, long term resentment, right? 29:07.955 --> 29:09.835 [SPEAKER_02]: And it could be over the dumbest thing, too. 29:09.995 --> 29:22.999 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be over the dumbest thing, but, you know, they link long term resentment with increased anxiety, depression, and even like physical symptoms that would be like headaches, fatigue, stuff like that. 29:23.998 --> 29:26.441 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, when you're reading that, that's crazy. 29:26.682 --> 29:27.263 [SPEAKER_03]: It is crazy. 29:27.323 --> 29:30.147 [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, the fact that, for example, you're stress hormones. 29:31.349 --> 29:33.150 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, in a prolonged state of tension. 29:34.031 --> 29:39.534 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and this is why when people say stress can kill you, this is why we're saying stress can kill you. 29:39.554 --> 29:44.357 [SPEAKER_03]: Because the thing is, is for so long, your body can only handle so much stress. 29:44.977 --> 29:59.966 [SPEAKER_02]: And so when you're in that state of mind of like anger, anger, like this and that, and even stress can cause a lot of these things like anxiety and depression and the physical symptoms, you know, even to the point of like feeling sick all this time, 30:01.305 --> 30:12.430 [SPEAKER_02]: This is what we're trying to get to is like when you have, you know, you hold on to these resentments, you hold on to these like, well, so and so wrong to me. 30:13.571 --> 30:15.251 [SPEAKER_02]: And you just hold on to that. 30:15.852 --> 30:27.137 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I understand they they they wrong do, but at some level, you you really do have to look at forgiveness and try to find that place. 30:28.238 --> 30:33.621 [SPEAKER_02]: because it's just affecting you and either emotional or physical ways. 30:34.162 --> 30:36.944 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, so for, I'm gonna give an example, right? 30:37.044 --> 30:43.828 [SPEAKER_03]: So the quote I like to use here is, you can always forgive, but you'll never forget, like kind of like what I mentioned before. 30:44.769 --> 30:53.834 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, you know, it's a hard thing to learn, you know, and especially to do, but like, you know, for example, you know, 30:58.778 --> 31:07.205 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, upset with the fact that, you know, you're doing something that you shouldn't have been doing and doesn't believe that what you're doing is the right thing, you know? 31:07.826 --> 31:12.990 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, you know what, you can say otherwise that you're like, I know what I'm doing is right, whether you believe you're not. 31:13.370 --> 31:16.713 [SPEAKER_03]: And what you think may not matter in the sense of this. 31:18.555 --> 31:26.362 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and your, you know, you're understanding that this person's gonna get angry this entire time, you know, this resentment, there's, 31:27.196 --> 31:49.932 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, all these things that are coming into play and then, you know, they do certain things that, you know, let's say it, you know, they piss you off and they they make sure that, you know, certain things about maybe the event that you're you're doing or whatever that might be right, whatever it may be, you know, it makes it harder for you to enjoy special occasions or things like that and it it hurts you because you don't want that person to be. 31:50.938 --> 32:15.461 [SPEAKER_03]: upset or angry but at the same time you can't change who they are right because again you're you're leaving that ball in their court but you know you're you're your understanding of the fact that you know what they pissed you off they did all this stuff and at this point all you can do is be like you know what I'll forgive you for what that that happened many many years ago but yeah you'll never forget because at the same time you have to remember to yourself like you know maybe you're not the one 32:16.442 --> 32:27.931 [SPEAKER_03]: having to do the forgiving, you know, but you're just saying, you know what, I'm going to always remember this because if it happens again, yes, what, then you're going to be like, I'm done, we can't do this anymore. 32:28.111 --> 32:29.292 [SPEAKER_03]: We have to move on from this. 32:29.992 --> 32:32.034 [SPEAKER_03]: But again, it's a lot harder than it is. 32:32.394 --> 32:41.781 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I would say like that's a good segue to the next topic, even though there there's still a couple of things in the other one, but like we'll move on to the next one, 32:44.925 --> 32:47.527 [SPEAKER_02]: fits this next like pillar that we're talking about. 32:47.547 --> 32:58.513 [SPEAKER_02]: And this is, you know, forgiveness doesn't mean what you think it means, um, you know, when we talk about forgiveness and reconciliation. 32:58.673 --> 32:59.714 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that is true. 33:00.995 --> 33:02.096 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not the same thing. 33:03.277 --> 33:06.738 [SPEAKER_02]: And confusing the two does cause a lot of damage. 33:07.678 --> 33:28.385 [SPEAKER_02]: And what you're saying is like, you can, I mean, you can physically forgive someone internally, not just like saying, like, hey, I forgive you and walking away, like, you can forgive somebody in your heart and still choose to not allow them in your life. 33:28.965 --> 33:29.305 [SPEAKER_03]: Correct. 33:31.101 --> 33:47.415 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a possibility and, you know, what you're saying is like, you know, you won't forget But you can forgive like it doesn't erase the consequences of like what has happened You know, you can forgive someone can be forgiven 33:49.456 --> 33:59.782 [SPEAKER_02]: and they can still face and they should still face the consequences of their actions, whether it's relational, emotional, or potentially legal. 33:59.922 --> 34:02.864 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it doesn't erase the consequences. 34:04.185 --> 34:12.110 [SPEAKER_02]: You're still, you know, you can forgive them and you can say like, I mean, I, there are certainly someone and you know exactly what I'm referring to. 34:12.170 --> 34:17.033 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to mention a name, but there is just somebody in my life, 34:18.365 --> 34:24.547 [SPEAKER_02]: that I have chosen not really to be much of a part of it, right? 34:24.847 --> 34:34.391 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not because I didn't forgive him because I did, but it's because he has continually made the same mistake. 34:35.531 --> 34:44.555 [SPEAKER_02]: And I do not want that person necessarily to just be a part of my life 34:46.232 --> 34:48.294 [SPEAKER_02]: He just keeps making the same mistake. 34:48.994 --> 34:58.021 [SPEAKER_02]: And even though he's had consequences, he just seems to revert right back into, and it's like, what are you doing? 34:58.341 --> 34:59.322 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, right, come on. 34:59.522 --> 35:07.248 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and his thing about, you know, because you could tell the same person, the same thing, saying, this is what you're doing wrong. 35:08.262 --> 35:14.103 [SPEAKER_03]: They have to make it, they could probably make it a thousand more, whatever, however many times it might be. 35:14.864 --> 35:19.085 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is probably just sometimes the human nature of that person. 35:19.345 --> 35:23.926 [SPEAKER_03]: And that just, unfortunately, until they understand what their consequences are doing. 35:24.646 --> 35:27.367 [SPEAKER_03]: And that, and again, that's, that's the hard part, too, because 35:28.147 --> 35:35.393 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, for example, like, I know Matt always jokes with me about like, Hey, man, you know, you should probably help me with help me out with some of these notes and doing all this. 35:35.754 --> 35:42.319 [SPEAKER_03]: And I know, and I do forgive him because, or actually, I'm afraid that I tried to forgive me forgive me forgive you forgive me. 35:42.339 --> 35:48.084 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just saying, like, yes, I know Matt does a lot, and I, and I do appreciate all that he does, right? 35:48.905 --> 35:57.111 [SPEAKER_03]: I do feel that there are sometimes where yeah, I need to do more and I'm trying to work on it more because that's the thing, at least I'm acknowledging it. 35:57.752 --> 36:03.116 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the hard part too is that acknowledging the overall piece to this, right? 36:03.156 --> 36:08.219 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you have to admit when you're forgiving somebody, you have to acknowledge what you're doing. 36:09.100 --> 36:11.822 [SPEAKER_03]: And you have to realize what it is that it is causing 36:16.221 --> 36:19.923 [SPEAKER_03]: I know, I was just kind of moving ahead, but like, you know, in the case of this, right? 36:19.963 --> 36:23.464 [SPEAKER_03]: So letting go of anger does not mean pretending the event didn't happen, right? 36:23.524 --> 36:25.825 [SPEAKER_03]: Because again, you're always going to remember the event. 36:25.845 --> 36:28.046 [SPEAKER_03]: You're always going to remember what exactly is going on. 36:28.646 --> 36:32.968 [SPEAKER_03]: Real forgiveness acknowledges the pain fully instead of minimizing or ignoring it. 36:33.728 --> 36:34.669 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is true, right? 36:34.689 --> 36:37.810 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're not, if you ignore it, and if you minimize it, 36:38.843 --> 37:02.533 [SPEAKER_02]: Because all you're doing is bottling that shit up, and you're just going to let it wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait 37:03.727 --> 37:21.560 [SPEAKER_02]: you're not continuing to just hold it and be like, you know, when that person, you know, maybe doesn't do this, whatever that, whatever happened again, like maybe they just forget to take the trash out or, you know, you're like, well, you remember that time that you did, like, that's not forgiveness. 37:22.160 --> 37:24.381 [SPEAKER_02]: That's just you now weaponizing. 37:25.182 --> 37:28.404 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, what had happened, you know, you know, who does a lot of this? 37:29.045 --> 37:29.645 [SPEAKER_03]: Taylor Swift. 37:30.105 --> 37:30.326 [SPEAKER_03]: Trump? 37:30.706 --> 37:31.386 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, 37:34.295 --> 37:39.006 [SPEAKER_03]: I know what I was going to say was this is why I'm joking so this is why I'm saying when you're talking about you know 37:40.149 --> 37:43.991 [SPEAKER_03]: Accepting it or at least acknowledging the painful and instead of minimizing or ignoring it. 37:44.251 --> 38:04.700 [SPEAKER_03]: This is why artists does they do really well with this because the reason why is because they they songs about it, and so that's why I was joking about Taylor Swift because what did she do she gets into relationship and then hey, let me make a song about it, and then No, I'm not saying that and then she's keen your car and what you know whatever anyways, no, but in then of course there is a major difference between forgiveness and intolerance like this 38:05.418 --> 38:09.140 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, so for giving someone does not mean continuing to accept toxic behavior. 38:09.240 --> 38:15.943 [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of what I said in my example, like you don't have to continue accepting this toxic behavior. 38:18.279 --> 38:46.941 [SPEAKER_02]: You can, like the very first point that we said in this piece of it, like you can forgive somebody and then choose to not allow them back into your life, like if they're going to continue having this toxic behavior, whether they're doing it or not doing it, if you've forgiven somebody and then they go ahead and do it again, you forgive them, but then they go and do it with somebody it's like, 38:48.430 --> 38:58.315 [SPEAKER_02]: you have to somehow separate yourself and be like, listen, like, I have completely forgiven you for what you did to me or to us. 38:58.475 --> 39:04.118 [SPEAKER_02]: But you're continuing your behavior with other people. 39:04.858 --> 39:14.123 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just cannot do this and keep a level of forgiveness to you, like, whatever happened between, 39:16.623 --> 39:17.984 [SPEAKER_02]: yourself and this person. 39:18.824 --> 39:20.525 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, forgive that. 39:20.946 --> 39:24.047 [SPEAKER_02]: But then there's a level of when they go and do it to other people. 39:25.568 --> 39:34.313 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not your forgiveness that you have to worry about now with this person, but you can not allow that, like, talk to behavior like, hey, yeah, we'll hang out on Saturday. 39:35.174 --> 39:37.515 [SPEAKER_02]: No, like, what are you doing? 39:37.535 --> 39:39.096 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are you doing, kid? 39:39.356 --> 39:41.958 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, no, and I agree, and then, you know, 39:46.000 --> 39:48.342 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we are going to talk about a little bit of faith. 39:48.742 --> 40:01.851 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, a little bit of religious here, but the biblical perspective right subtle but real right this is what it mentions it says forgiveness is often framed as releasing the debt someone owes you now pretending the debt never existed. 40:02.618 --> 40:05.901 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a completely different mindset than what most people assume. 40:06.702 --> 40:08.684 [SPEAKER_03]: So kind of like what I've already said, right? 40:09.684 --> 40:14.809 [SPEAKER_03]: Your it's framing it as releasing the debt someone owes you and not pretending the debt never existed. 40:15.490 --> 40:21.075 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's kind of what I've already said already is that you're saying, you know what, okay, I know it was there. 40:21.735 --> 40:22.997 [SPEAKER_03]: I know like this happened. 40:23.922 --> 40:25.762 [SPEAKER_03]: but you're not forgetting it, right? 40:25.942 --> 40:26.442 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the thing. 40:26.462 --> 40:27.503 [SPEAKER_03]: You're weird here, forgetting. 40:27.763 --> 40:46.646 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, just going into a little bit, not that I wanted to dig deep into this biblical perspective, but this kind of God perspective, the faith perspective, spiritual perspective is the idea of forgiveness is that God forgave us 40:53.845 --> 40:59.688 [SPEAKER_02]: for our sins, by sending Jesus who died on the cross. 40:59.708 --> 41:07.772 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you're a Christian, you know the story, like, I'm not going to go into it, but like, forgiveness is something like, we're called to do. 41:08.552 --> 41:19.058 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not something like, it's like, you know, if you can forgive, you should, no, like, it's one of the things that like in God's word, it actually says, 41:19.920 --> 41:25.868 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we should forgive because that's what we're called to do. 41:26.509 --> 41:29.734 [SPEAKER_03]: And also, if you think about the human nature or culture, 41:31.577 --> 41:32.357 [SPEAKER_03]: we're not perfect. 41:32.637 --> 41:39.139 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not anywhere, like if anyone ever, and I was going to say if anyone says that you're perfect or whatever, you're an narcissist, that's all I'm going to say right now. 41:39.720 --> 41:42.661 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I'm saying that at the end of the day, we're not perfect. 41:42.941 --> 41:44.041 [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to make mistakes. 41:44.081 --> 41:55.605 [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to have to forgive individuals or things or whatever, whatever causes pain to that, you know, to events, to people, to things or whatever, 41:56.960 --> 41:57.780 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a part of life. 41:57.820 --> 42:03.022 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I actually, I like this next point because I think we haven't said this yet. 42:03.503 --> 42:03.703 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 42:04.343 --> 42:09.485 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, me, we, we've kind of like bullet pointed around it, right? 42:09.825 --> 42:14.767 [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, forgiveness is internal. 42:14.847 --> 42:16.048 [SPEAKER_02]: I, we, we have said that. 42:16.168 --> 42:18.669 [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's internal, not transactional. 42:19.709 --> 42:23.531 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's like a key thing, like if you're keen into this episode, 42:25.037 --> 42:29.961 [SPEAKER_02]: forgiveness isn't a transaction that you like, I forgive you, so now you change. 42:30.842 --> 42:40.551 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it doesn't, forgiveness doesn't require the other person to apologize, to change, or even acknowledge what they did. 42:41.551 --> 42:44.654 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's one of the hardest things to accept. 42:45.275 --> 42:47.657 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, when I'm forgiving somebody, 42:49.583 --> 43:00.209 [SPEAKER_02]: It requires no effort on the other person to actually apologize for what they've done, acknowledge what they've done, or change who they are as a person. 43:01.150 --> 43:09.334 [SPEAKER_02]: And I have to internalize my forgiveness and be like, yeah, I forgive you. 43:11.155 --> 43:13.477 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm letting it go, not forgetting. 43:15.156 --> 43:23.420 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm letting it go out of my heart so that I'm not struggling with this and holding on to it for the next 15 years. 43:24.160 --> 43:37.287 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and that's the thing where, you know, because I, and this is where I'm saying about bottling your anger or your, you know, all these mistakes that you might have, maybe have to, you know, that you've done or whatever and you keep letting it bottle in. 43:37.327 --> 43:41.129 [SPEAKER_03]: And then of course, maybe one day it explodes and, you know, it just makes things worse. 43:41.929 --> 43:59.025 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so the other thing is too is that, you know, when you do internalize, you know, this forgiveness and you're, you know, you're, you're saying to somebody like, you know, I, I'm sorry for what I've done, you know, that is what it is and you know, and you're right there is no, it's almost like you're bouncing a ball off the wall. 43:59.892 --> 44:01.693 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's coming right back to you, because guess what? 44:02.014 --> 44:03.755 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean that that person has to catch it. 44:04.375 --> 44:12.361 [SPEAKER_03]: Or like, it has to grab it and say something back to you or do anything else in that, you know, those exchange of words. 44:12.541 --> 44:17.845 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're, all you're saying is like, hello, and then it's just like, it's out in the open, that's it. 44:17.945 --> 44:20.527 [SPEAKER_03]: And then if nothing comes back to you, then that's what it is. 44:21.167 --> 44:25.491 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's where we're saying, you know, when you're doing this, 44:26.533 --> 44:31.856 [SPEAKER_03]: It is the hardest part because you're you're having to realize that nothing you do or say after that. 44:33.077 --> 44:39.000 [SPEAKER_03]: You might get a transaction back from somebody else or you might not get shit and you're going to have to realize that. 44:40.061 --> 44:47.945 [SPEAKER_03]: Guess what you said it that's what it is you have to let some of that go and try to do better next time because that's all you can do. 44:48.405 --> 44:50.467 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I I actually looked up. 44:51.400 --> 44:54.543 [SPEAKER_02]: the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. 44:56.064 --> 45:02.810 [SPEAKER_02]: Just so, you know, if you're kind of like on the fence of like, well, what is the real difference between the two of them? 45:03.050 --> 45:11.398 [SPEAKER_02]: Forgiveness is defined as an internal unilateral process of letting go of resentment and the desire for revenge. 45:12.719 --> 45:13.840 [SPEAKER_03]: I love how it's revenge. 45:14.373 --> 45:15.734 [SPEAKER_02]: it says revenge. 45:16.295 --> 45:25.925 [SPEAKER_02]: And reconciliation is a mutual process of restoring a damaged relationship which requires repentance, change behavior, and rebuild. 45:27.186 --> 45:30.369 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if you think about it, I mean, reconciliation is definitely a marriage thing. 45:31.290 --> 45:35.454 [SPEAKER_02]: Or no, but I mean, I know, but it's forgiveness is like that internal. 45:36.498 --> 45:57.685 [SPEAKER_02]: process of letting go correct reconciliation are the two people come in together and it's that mutual agreement of like yeah let's let's fix this damage relationship you know you know they and repentance is just that that actual effort of saying like I'm sorry this is what I've done 45:59.297 --> 46:03.499 [SPEAKER_02]: and accepting, you know, I need to change. 46:04.320 --> 46:05.941 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's try to rebuild this. 46:06.561 --> 46:15.005 [SPEAKER_02]: That's, you're reconciling with, you know, your family member or your loved one or your friend that you're wrong or your ex. 46:15.265 --> 46:17.086 [SPEAKER_02]: Whoever that person is or your co-host. 46:17.546 --> 46:18.207 [SPEAKER_02]: Or your co-host. 46:18.727 --> 46:20.028 [SPEAKER_02]: Forgiveness is different. 46:20.108 --> 46:21.729 [SPEAKER_02]: You're, you're just letting go. 46:22.329 --> 46:29.693 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether or not the person on the other side of that forgiveness actually changes and becomes a different person is completely irrelevant. 46:30.073 --> 46:30.273 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 46:30.845 --> 46:32.706 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is the key difference. 46:32.726 --> 46:48.873 [SPEAKER_02]: So when we talk about some of the facts, like there's a study on interpersonal conflict, and it shows that people who separate forgiveness from reconciliation tend to maintain healthier boundaries long term. 46:49.873 --> 46:50.714 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a reason for that. 46:51.423 --> 47:08.412 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, because they're recognizing both as being separate things, which makes, it makes a lot of sense and then even the, you know, with many therapeutic approaches, like including, you know, CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy, they treat forgiveness as a personal release mechanism rather than a relational repair tool. 47:08.792 --> 47:08.972 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 47:09.072 --> 47:10.133 [SPEAKER_03]: So I like that because. 47:11.085 --> 47:21.592 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, yes, like, you know, when you're in a sounds weird, I'm going to say, like, you know, yes, I've been known to talk to myself and look, oh, you got voices, you know, you have to like release everything that you say most people believe it or not. 47:21.852 --> 47:24.033 [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to look this up, you actually talk to themselves. 47:24.073 --> 47:26.995 [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually a normal thing that people do and everyone's like, no, it's not. 47:27.115 --> 47:38.703 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, then you, I guess you're the weird one because I know I do a lot of ADD or ADHD people do this because it's the way that they process the amount of thoughts that they have in their head. 47:39.147 --> 47:39.567 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, great. 47:39.607 --> 47:42.368 [SPEAKER_03]: So that means I probably have 80 or 80 HD. 47:42.408 --> 47:42.989 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Matt. 47:43.049 --> 47:45.069 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad I could find a diagnosis for myself. 47:45.129 --> 47:48.591 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's like 80% of people have, I know, probably some level of it. 47:48.771 --> 47:50.011 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I probably have a little bit. 47:50.091 --> 47:58.174 [SPEAKER_03]: But the point is though, is that if you have to say certain things to release, what is going on in your brain? 47:58.194 --> 48:03.977 [SPEAKER_03]: Because sometimes, you're like, you know, I always think of that the Patrick episode, or like, it's much better. 48:03.997 --> 48:07.018 [SPEAKER_03]: Basically, it's the least I'm safe inside my mind. 48:07.465 --> 48:10.866 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, you know what, they're about to say this, you can say that all you want. 48:11.026 --> 48:19.389 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't get you anywhere because you're going to look like a weirdo talking to yourself inside your mind because everyone's like, is it kind of a conversation with themselves? 48:19.409 --> 48:34.835 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not as mind or like, no, maybe, maybe a little, you know, I'm just saying that sometimes just saying things out loud, it's like, you know, writing stuff down or in that case, some people, like I said for me, I have to release it in the moment because if I don't. 48:36.013 --> 48:46.699 [SPEAKER_03]: It helps me kind of think of the whole raw picture because like you said, sometimes even when you're angry, you're by yourself, you can't just sit there and Fester because that's you know kind of going on here is 48:47.627 --> 48:53.890 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, with forgiveness, you know, it doesn't mean that they can't, or they, sorry, that doesn't mean they get access to you again, right? 48:53.930 --> 48:57.691 [SPEAKER_03]: It just means that they don't, you know, get to live rent free in your head. 48:57.711 --> 48:58.912 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, see. 48:59.472 --> 49:14.378 [SPEAKER_03]: So in this case, you know, whether you're, you know, forgiving that individual or not, you know, sure, you can say that, you know, you can, you know, continue to fester and you can continue to do all this. 49:15.528 --> 49:18.090 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean that it has to be a continuous thought. 49:18.330 --> 49:25.254 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have to be the same thing over and over and over again, because as we've already mentioned, what happens to stress? 49:25.294 --> 49:26.195 [SPEAKER_03]: What happens to anger? 49:27.176 --> 49:28.917 [SPEAKER_03]: It can literally kill you, people. 49:29.177 --> 49:30.838 [SPEAKER_02]: It can literally do all these things. 49:31.398 --> 49:34.440 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, I'll move on to the next pillar. 49:34.460 --> 49:38.383 [SPEAKER_02]: This is because we do have to get, all right, all right. 49:38.463 --> 49:40.444 [SPEAKER_02]: We do have like two other pillars after this one. 49:45.605 --> 49:53.030 [SPEAKER_02]: And we all know that one person who just hold on to things, hold on to grudges like that person wrong. 49:53.050 --> 49:54.431 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm never going to forgive him. 49:54.811 --> 49:55.491 [SPEAKER_02]: His name's Matt. 49:55.611 --> 49:56.212 [SPEAKER_02]: No, John. 49:56.232 --> 49:58.753 [SPEAKER_02]: That was John and he just keeps pissing me off. 49:58.793 --> 49:59.054 [SPEAKER_02]: And I. 49:59.940 --> 50:28.507 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, anyways, you hold, you know, holding onto that resentment like you feel justified because well they did something wrong right like they are in the wrong I am in the right like they suck and I don't and John sucks and I don't really I see how this works down but over time it becomes emotionally exhausting a requires constant mental energy to replay that 50:29.400 --> 50:42.999 [SPEAKER_02]: thing that went wrong that they did wrong to justify and to maintain the anger, you know, these grudges that we, you know, can hold on to, they, they shift from being about the original event. 50:44.270 --> 50:46.891 [SPEAKER_02]: to becoming part of like a person's identity. 50:47.591 --> 50:53.753 [SPEAKER_02]: Like people stop saying that hurt me and start living like, well, this is just who I am now. 50:53.793 --> 50:55.834 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, it's just whatever. 50:56.194 --> 51:05.397 [SPEAKER_02]: And half the time, I think when you're holding on to these grudges for a long term, you know, time frame, 51:06.872 --> 51:22.422 [SPEAKER_02]: you don't even remember the original event because it's just every time you see this person that just look at this douchebag over here like he just keeps doing the same stupid crap all the time like and you're like, why are you angry with them? 51:24.423 --> 51:34.069 [SPEAKER_02]: Because he's a douchebag and he didn't it like and you don't even remember like the original event and it's like, why are you holding on to this? 51:35.294 --> 51:45.502 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I know why why can't you just walk up to this person and be like, I don't even know what we're angry at each other about, but like, we need to just move past this. 51:46.944 --> 51:55.451 [SPEAKER_02]: Or are you could just basically be like, you know what, I forgive you or you could say and stop fucking holding on to it or you could just say, hey, you want to grab beer sometime. 51:56.615 --> 51:57.136 [SPEAKER_03]: I know it all. 51:57.156 --> 52:00.280 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, whoever's, you know, in recovery, don't don't listen to that. 52:00.360 --> 52:01.602 [SPEAKER_03]: No, but you're right. 52:01.642 --> 52:08.111 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the problem is to like kind of like going on with that, too, is that there is a psychological cost to this as well. 52:08.391 --> 52:09.492 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we said it already. 52:09.572 --> 52:11.335 [SPEAKER_02]: We've said it's already in a chronic case. 52:11.455 --> 52:13.678 [SPEAKER_02]: Your cortisol and it can affect you physically. 52:13.718 --> 52:16.759 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it put a strain literally on your body. 52:16.819 --> 52:19.999 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, especially when it becomes like a long-term emotional state. 52:20.200 --> 52:23.980 [SPEAKER_03]: So you're talking increased blood pressure, stress levels, everything. 52:24.521 --> 52:30.302 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all been linked to these health and medical conditions and diseases and all these things. 52:30.342 --> 52:31.962 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the grudges will kill you. 52:32.422 --> 52:42.525 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, seriously, I mean, think about like, you know, hot blood pusher or like basically like a heart attack or I'm thinking of like heart disease and so on and so forth, like literally. 52:44.305 --> 52:55.534 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's crazy that emotions will feed into everything that you do, and so especially with anger because it's so easy to maintain and so easy to just get into that mode. 52:56.074 --> 52:57.115 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, think about it. 52:57.435 --> 53:04.601 [SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever just like get so angry and you're like, you know, I'm fucking hungry. 53:04.641 --> 53:07.703 [SPEAKER_03]: I need to eat something and then you just keep eating and eating and then you're like, 53:09.105 --> 53:10.706 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, the fact that I just eat all that shit. 53:10.766 --> 53:18.629 [SPEAKER_03]: And even though I was pissed off at this one thing, I haven't done it all the time, but I've done it here and there, but then you go, well, that was stupid. 53:19.470 --> 53:21.531 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, or something like stupid like that. 53:21.631 --> 53:29.554 [SPEAKER_03]: I just think that, you know, when you're in an emotional state, especially of like anger and things, sometimes you also do the stupid of shit. 53:29.934 --> 53:37.958 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it, and I feel like you don't realize it because you're so focused on this one thing that you just can't let go. 53:38.620 --> 53:38.840 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 53:38.960 --> 53:42.082 [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, and here's the other thing. 53:42.102 --> 53:50.328 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is, this is, I would say, a really tough one too, is that of course with relationships, you know, they suffer, right, even unrelated ones. 53:50.388 --> 53:58.754 [SPEAKER_03]: So people carrying unresolved anger often projected on to others, which, no kidding on that one, becoming more reactive defensive or distant without realizing it. 53:59.555 --> 54:02.257 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me. 54:02.757 --> 54:08.021 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like to a lot of people because the issue is is because you're holding on to that anger that unresolved. 54:08.738 --> 54:26.198 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, things that are going on, especially where, you know, you're trying to forgive and you're trying to let go of these things, you're putting up a wall, you're realize, you're sorry, you're you're putting a distance between people because you're not realizing what it is that you're doing and you're affecting literally everybody. 54:26.478 --> 54:28.721 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not even just that home it could be a work it could be. 54:29.892 --> 54:30.773 [SPEAKER_03]: your coals don't. 54:31.734 --> 54:33.075 [SPEAKER_03]: It could be every day. 54:33.335 --> 54:35.397 [SPEAKER_03]: He's like, you know, can you stop saying coals every time? 54:35.778 --> 54:36.679 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just luck. 54:36.719 --> 54:38.400 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying it as a general term here. 54:38.440 --> 54:42.544 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's the thing is is that sometimes sure. 54:43.533 --> 54:54.035 [SPEAKER_03]: It is so easy to do all this, but you have to think about your long term situation that is going on because at the end of the day, do you really want to live alone? 54:54.155 --> 54:57.076 [SPEAKER_03]: I know Matt was like, oh, I live on island by myself. 54:57.176 --> 54:57.976 [SPEAKER_03]: No problem at all. 54:57.996 --> 54:59.416 [SPEAKER_03]: Give me a free food for the rest of my life. 54:59.436 --> 54:59.876 [SPEAKER_03]: Not a problem. 54:59.916 --> 55:00.836 [SPEAKER_03]: I go to live by myself. 55:01.276 --> 55:05.717 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I guess what I, I've also told Matt, I guess what we are social people because guess what? 55:06.097 --> 55:09.598 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think, you know, naming a volley or basically a volleyball. 55:10.493 --> 55:13.651 [SPEAKER_03]: naming, what was it, what was his name in the castaway? 55:14.062 --> 55:15.223 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you want us to be super questioned? 55:15.923 --> 55:16.563 [SPEAKER_03]: See, here you go. 55:16.583 --> 55:20.045 [SPEAKER_03]: See, this is what I'm talking about people, anger right here as it is. 55:20.765 --> 55:22.506 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I'm talking about castaway. 55:22.526 --> 55:23.386 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm talking, you know what I'm saying? 55:23.406 --> 55:26.128 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what movie you're talking about, and his name is Wilson. 55:26.148 --> 55:26.748 [SPEAKER_02]: There you go. 55:27.028 --> 55:27.709 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't want to say that. 55:27.729 --> 55:29.569 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, why are you asking me dumb questions like this? 55:29.629 --> 55:32.091 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, because I wanted you to at least answer me, God. 55:32.111 --> 55:32.671 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't forgive you. 55:32.851 --> 55:33.511 [SPEAKER_03]: See, exactly. 55:34.092 --> 55:35.252 [SPEAKER_03]: And so this is why grudges. 55:36.433 --> 55:40.235 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, you know, grudges don't punish. 55:41.195 --> 55:51.798 [SPEAKER_02]: The other person, like I think as much as people think they do, you know, I think when you look at most cases like, you know, yeah, I don't talk to my, I haven't talked to my dad in 20 years. 55:51.818 --> 55:55.920 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't talked to my brother or sister and, you know, 15 years. 55:57.560 --> 56:06.723 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times that other person has already moved on and sure like they would want the relationship. 56:08.456 --> 56:15.679 [SPEAKER_02]: to be as intact as possible, but there's also a level of, there's nothing I can do about it. 56:16.280 --> 56:23.563 [SPEAKER_02]: While the other person just continues to hold on to this grudge, and it's like, this is what I said before. 56:23.603 --> 56:31.767 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you may not even know what the initial event even is like that you're angry about, and it's like, 56:33.532 --> 56:36.894 [SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, we often think like, well, that's person did this. 56:36.934 --> 56:40.036 [SPEAKER_02]: So I, you know, I'm just not going to associate with them ever again. 56:40.076 --> 56:44.499 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, two years, five years, 10 years pass. 56:46.440 --> 56:57.627 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, even remember what you're angry about, you know, initially and then you just have this stupid grudge was like, yeah, I just, I haven't talked to my brother in like 25 years. 56:57.687 --> 56:58.928 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, why? 57:00.141 --> 57:02.862 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, because he's an idiot and he keeps messing up his life. 57:03.943 --> 57:09.966 [SPEAKER_02]: Is he messing up his life because you think he's messing up his life or is he actually messing up his life? 57:10.006 --> 57:18.170 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what, you know, it's just that they like, I don't think it punishes the other person as much as you're thinking it does. 57:18.210 --> 57:20.971 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I'm just not going to talk to him because he's ugly. 57:21.572 --> 57:21.952 [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever. 57:22.092 --> 57:23.353 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, I don't. 57:23.513 --> 57:25.253 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a mental loop effect. 57:25.294 --> 57:26.094 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we're... 57:27.445 --> 57:38.808 [SPEAKER_02]: I think like our brains just revisit this unresolved situation, and it just loops in our brain, that this event just loops, and it loops, and it loops. 57:40.029 --> 57:54.693 [SPEAKER_02]: And in our brain, like we're saying like, I'm just not gonna talk to him in the intent that it solves the issue, but there's no forgiveness, there's no closure. 57:56.757 --> 57:59.578 [SPEAKER_02]: The reason it's a loop is because it just never stops. 57:59.658 --> 58:06.441 [SPEAKER_02]: It just keeps you just keep reliving that same thing over and over again, like, you know, my brother was an addict. 58:06.461 --> 58:08.042 [SPEAKER_02]: So I just stopped talking to him. 58:08.062 --> 58:09.083 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I just don't need it. 58:09.243 --> 58:10.963 [SPEAKER_02]: And he hurt his family. 58:11.084 --> 58:20.688 [SPEAKER_02]: Like he got a divorce like, you know, he, he hurt my mother and like you have all the stuff and it's like, but it, you know, 58:22.200 --> 58:28.046 [SPEAKER_02]: 25 years later, your brother is no longer an addict, but you're still pissed off at him because of what happened 25 years ago. 58:28.387 --> 58:35.374 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I also like the word closure, because especially with forgiveness, you know, you do want to have a sense of closure. 58:35.394 --> 58:44.003 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, at least giving that person like, hey, this is me getting enough my chest and then maybe saying, hey, this is what it is and then, you know, calling it a day. 58:44.766 --> 58:46.547 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I just didn't open loop like it just right. 58:46.607 --> 58:48.028 [SPEAKER_03]: It just continuously happens. 58:48.069 --> 58:50.010 [SPEAKER_03]: And so good olfax here, right? 58:50.050 --> 58:57.956 [SPEAKER_03]: So studies and stress and health psychology link, prolonged anger and resentment to higher risk of cardiovascular issues. 58:58.096 --> 58:59.237 [SPEAKER_02]: It can kill you, people. 58:59.257 --> 59:00.458 [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, it can kill you. 59:00.498 --> 59:03.740 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have any times we've said that already, but hey, it'll be pretty easy. 59:03.760 --> 59:05.642 [SPEAKER_03]: Every single episode, it can kill you. 59:05.762 --> 59:11.306 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, every single one of these things, I mean, the stress, the increased cardiovascular issues, 59:12.867 --> 59:14.809 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, emotional rumination. 59:14.849 --> 59:15.829 [SPEAKER_02]: How about that for a word? 59:15.910 --> 59:18.171 [SPEAKER_03]: I never heard of that in playing events repeatedly. 59:18.191 --> 59:18.552 [SPEAKER_03]: That's nice. 59:18.572 --> 59:21.174 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, rumination is this replaying events repeatedly. 59:21.614 --> 59:25.997 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's strongly associated with anxiety and depressive symptoms. 59:26.678 --> 59:31.521 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you've been struggling with anxiety and depression, you may want to look at. 59:32.323 --> 59:33.424 [SPEAKER_02]: What has caused your stress? 59:33.724 --> 59:44.393 [SPEAKER_02]: What has caused this emotional rumination or if you do you have somebody that needs forgiveness from you, it's not them. 59:45.293 --> 59:47.956 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm gonna say this, it's not them, it's you. 59:48.656 --> 59:57.363 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, whether they change as a person is completely irrelevant, and I said this probably like three times already, like it's completely irrelevant to you 01:00:02.245 --> 01:00:04.006 [SPEAKER_03]: So here's another thing to keep in mind, too. 01:00:04.346 --> 01:00:08.028 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is where, you know, with Matt and I, having the mental health kind of background, too. 01:00:08.708 --> 01:00:17.412 [SPEAKER_03]: So I can't tell you how many times I've seen people that have this like, anxiety levels and depression and all these other symptoms that they might get. 01:00:18.533 --> 01:00:21.314 [SPEAKER_03]: The problem is there's trauma related. 01:00:21.774 --> 01:00:23.195 [SPEAKER_03]: Most of the time is usually trauma. 01:00:24.031 --> 01:00:37.094 [SPEAKER_03]: And the reason for that is because the one they haven't either won for given themselves, or they haven't, you know, found a way to reconcile whatever the situation was that made them feel this way. 01:00:37.754 --> 01:00:47.017 [SPEAKER_03]: And so when you think about how our society, yeah, we have a lot of people that have anxiety, we have a lot of people that have depression and so on and so forth like a name all these other things. 01:00:47.857 --> 01:00:53.545 [SPEAKER_03]: This is where we're saying that if you learn those differences between forgiveness and reconciliation, 01:00:54.690 --> 01:01:17.810 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this could help resolve some of these unrelated issues to really hopefully get your life back on track because at the end of the day, we're not saying that everyone's perfect, but at the same time, you can definitely prevent, you know, especially a lot of these issues, like the things that we were talking about, this higher risk of cardiovascular disease and we get immune response. 01:01:18.590 --> 01:01:20.352 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's just so much there. 01:01:20.392 --> 01:01:22.073 [SPEAKER_03]: So like I said, stress can kill you. 01:01:22.914 --> 01:01:25.135 [SPEAKER_03]: basically quarters all levels can definitely kill you. 01:01:26.175 --> 01:01:37.000 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, these prolonged states of basically just these high intense levels of anger and depression and all the stuff. 01:01:37.040 --> 01:01:39.041 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just not 01:01:40.001 --> 01:01:45.124 [SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, it's just not worth dealing with and having to continuously deal with these loops. 01:01:45.165 --> 01:01:51.028 [SPEAKER_03]: I was about to say, kind of like a cassette player, and then you just rewind it again and then you go back to it. 01:01:51.469 --> 01:01:53.170 [SPEAKER_03]: The fuck is a cassette tape group? 01:01:53.210 --> 01:01:53.910 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know what? 01:01:54.070 --> 01:01:56.552 [SPEAKER_03]: If you were born at a certain time, you know what a cassette tape is. 01:01:57.132 --> 01:01:59.394 [SPEAKER_03]: If you don't, well, then you might as well go look what an up. 01:02:00.448 --> 01:02:05.272 [SPEAKER_03]: But then, you know what, here's our good ol' hopefully last pillar if I'm not mistaken. 01:02:05.492 --> 01:02:07.793 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm working on all Booprin challenge right now. 01:02:07.813 --> 01:02:08.514 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you do that. 01:02:08.714 --> 01:02:09.355 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not in there. 01:02:09.535 --> 01:02:13.097 [SPEAKER_03]: So choosing to say FU, no, I'm just kidding. 01:02:13.117 --> 01:02:14.078 [SPEAKER_03]: It's for you, John. 01:02:14.398 --> 01:02:15.079 [SPEAKER_03]: FU met. 01:02:15.539 --> 01:02:16.540 [SPEAKER_03]: Anyways, no, forgive you. 01:02:16.620 --> 01:02:18.541 [SPEAKER_03]: Forgive you, not really FU, but 01:02:19.422 --> 01:02:21.505 [SPEAKER_03]: And also again, for goodness is a choice. 01:02:21.705 --> 01:02:22.386 [SPEAKER_03]: Keep that in mind. 01:02:22.406 --> 01:02:30.678 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a feeling, you know, waiting until you feel ready, you know, often means waiting forever because the emotion doesn't naturally resolve at its own. 01:02:31.439 --> 01:02:31.859 [SPEAKER_03]: So again. 01:02:32.787 --> 01:02:33.427 [SPEAKER_03]: It is a choice. 01:02:33.467 --> 01:02:39.151 [SPEAKER_03]: It is a matter of words that you're saying to another individual like we've been saying it's not in that's the other thing. 01:02:39.171 --> 01:02:47.996 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and I think this is an interesting part to this to is for goodness is also sometimes it's not a it is a timing thing because sometimes you're right. 01:02:48.216 --> 01:02:54.260 [SPEAKER_03]: It can be immediate or it could take 25 years because your brother was an act. 01:02:55.280 --> 01:03:07.141 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what's going on there, but okay, you know, and so timing can also mean, you know, a lot of things because hopefully when you're doing this, I'm not saying it has to be like immediately when it happens. 01:03:08.620 --> 01:03:09.841 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe give some time. 01:03:10.401 --> 01:03:16.285 [SPEAKER_03]: But don't wait 25 years to then forgive somebody because I feel like that's way too damn long for anybody. 01:03:16.325 --> 01:03:21.588 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, and like this says, I mean, if you wait till you're like, well, I need to be ready. 01:03:22.289 --> 01:03:23.810 [SPEAKER_02]: You're never gonna be ready. 01:03:23.870 --> 01:03:24.670 [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's gonna be ready. 01:03:24.830 --> 01:03:28.733 [SPEAKER_02]: You're never gonna be ready and forgiveness is that choice. 01:03:29.173 --> 01:03:36.798 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you have to accept the choice of, I am going to forgive them. 01:03:38.675 --> 01:03:49.448 [SPEAKER_02]: But not forget, right, you're not forgetting, but you're saying, you know, FU, because you're making the choice. 01:03:49.708 --> 01:03:50.929 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not about them. 01:03:50.989 --> 01:03:58.838 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not about what, you know, necessarily what they've done, whether they're going to repent and be, you know, 01:03:59.907 --> 01:04:04.651 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, sorry, and actually, you know, that's what repentive is. 01:04:04.751 --> 01:04:13.558 [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, is like, you would not, like, somebody acknowledging and being sorry and making the commitment to change, um, it has nothing to do with them. 01:04:14.078 --> 01:04:16.100 [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's all about the choice that you're making. 01:04:16.840 --> 01:04:21.124 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the process isn't necessarily like a one and done. 01:04:21.244 --> 01:04:24.647 [SPEAKER_02]: It's usually isn't, you know, you don't just like, yeah, forgive you. 01:04:24.687 --> 01:04:25.007 [SPEAKER_02]: And then. 01:04:28.145 --> 01:04:29.146 [SPEAKER_02]: you just kind of move on. 01:04:29.166 --> 01:04:37.049 [SPEAKER_02]: Like sometimes you have to forgive the same situation multiple times as those emotions can resurface. 01:04:37.409 --> 01:04:50.996 [SPEAKER_02]: Like sometimes it's just like you can say and mean it in your heart and then when that thing loops back, like you have to, I mean it, it's just something like you have to accept it and move on. 01:04:51.736 --> 01:04:55.098 [SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't moved on and two months later, you're still 01:04:56.363 --> 01:05:19.912 [SPEAKER_02]: replaying that event and it's making you angry and you're starting to like that's you haven't really moved past it like you haven't really forgiven now we are always like we have said in this episode like you forgive but not forget forgiveness can coexist with boundaries right you can forgive somebody completely 01:05:21.531 --> 01:05:30.614 [SPEAKER_02]: But you, and I said this before, I think I said this a couple of times, do you can still limit or eliminate their role in your life moving forward? 01:05:31.494 --> 01:05:45.098 [SPEAKER_02]: So you can tell somebody, I forgive you, but you're not, you're not going to be part of my life, and whether they accept it or not is not on you, you just doing the 01:05:50.576 --> 01:05:51.757 [SPEAKER_02]: But I need to move on. 01:05:52.678 --> 01:06:00.083 [SPEAKER_02]: I cannot continue like having a friendship with you, even though I'm forgiving you for what happened, like I just can't do it. 01:06:01.244 --> 01:06:02.765 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're creating that boundary. 01:06:04.186 --> 01:06:05.427 [SPEAKER_02]: It's perfectly normal. 01:06:05.767 --> 01:06:13.233 [SPEAKER_02]: That happens all the time, but you cannot go back and keep replaying that and be hurt by it. 01:06:13.962 --> 01:06:31.322 [SPEAKER_02]: right forgiveness is not about that like forgiveness is meaning you're you're moving pat and this is why it's the hardest thing to do yeah because you have to now choose peace over chaos hmm 01:06:32.507 --> 01:06:33.368 [SPEAKER_03]: And I like this too. 01:06:33.388 --> 01:06:39.014 [SPEAKER_03]: I know we kind of jumped ahead a little bit or I guess I'm going back a little bit here, but I like the part right here. 01:06:39.394 --> 01:06:53.369 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a release not a reward because it is true because you're releasing that pain releasing that that hurt that all these things that come into play and it is not a reward because at this point. 01:06:54.900 --> 01:07:03.001 [SPEAKER_03]: You're just letting, again, let it go, you know, it's letting that shit go on and exists somewhere else. 01:07:03.842 --> 01:07:06.422 [SPEAKER_03]: You've stated your piece, you've done all that. 01:07:07.342 --> 01:07:23.065 [SPEAKER_03]: Now you're hoping that there isn't any chaos, but at the same time, sure, maybe sometimes when you forgive somebody, there could be a little chaos depending on what that situation is or who that person is or whatever, but it's not, again, and this is why I mentioned the words, the words, instant gratification. 01:07:24.107 --> 01:07:26.889 [SPEAKER_03]: It does not just happen overnight. 01:07:27.009 --> 01:07:29.511 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't just immediately disappear. 01:07:29.631 --> 01:07:32.393 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's going to continuously be there. 01:07:33.173 --> 01:07:35.014 [SPEAKER_03]: And so until you release that, yeah, sure. 01:07:35.335 --> 01:07:35.695 [SPEAKER_03]: Guess what? 01:07:36.195 --> 01:07:40.198 [SPEAKER_03]: Then you, all you're going to get from that, even though it's not a really reward, it's more, 01:07:41.462 --> 01:07:52.917 [SPEAKER_03]: You're finally getting rid of that hurt or that pain or that maybe that something that you either caused or maybe you're the one just saying, I'm done like you said about the boundaries like I'm just done. 01:07:53.158 --> 01:07:54.079 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't do this anymore. 01:07:54.968 --> 01:07:55.509 [SPEAKER_03]: And a story. 01:07:55.529 --> 01:07:56.730 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, call out today. 01:07:56.810 --> 01:08:16.067 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's, you know, when you're looking at forgiveness and, and I'm just going to say this outright, because I feel like maybe not so much of a guy thing, but a woman thing, say I was wondering where this, but go ahead where you'll get the, you know, I forgive you. 01:08:18.063 --> 01:08:40.804 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other person is just like, for what, like, you know, like there's no clear definition is like, you know, I forgive you for what exactly, you know, if you're truly forgiving somebody, please tell them what is you are forgiving them for because they're not going to make sure that they know like. 01:08:42.038 --> 01:09:01.057 [SPEAKER_02]: I am forgiving you for yada yada yada yada yada, whatever the, whatever the issue is, whatever the hurt is, whatever the trauma is, you know, clearly tell the person why you're forgiving them and then move on because that's like. 01:09:02.296 --> 01:09:14.439 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the key if you are forgiving somebody and you're defining it one I can guarantee the other person already knows what they've done wrong, but if you simply walk up to them and be like, you know what. 01:09:17.019 --> 01:09:18.300 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't care, but I forgive you. 01:09:21.360 --> 01:09:24.581 [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to hear the crickets and it's like the other person is going to be like. 01:09:26.171 --> 01:09:51.661 [SPEAKER_02]: for what or in math case what the fuck are you talking about is it just when you can define it and you can say like you know hey you know I forgive you for cheating or I forgive you for you know robbing me or I forgive you for for being on the button no I mean I forgive you for being ugly John and that's pretty screwed up there man I mean God anyways you said you 01:09:56.472 --> 01:10:02.354 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and so here's another thing too, right, you know, there's strength in choosing peace over being right. 01:10:02.594 --> 01:10:10.678 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think this is also a very hard, and this can go both ways for both men and women and again, whoever you want to be called. 01:10:12.098 --> 01:10:13.158 [SPEAKER_03]: It's definitely something. 01:10:13.178 --> 01:10:16.599 [SPEAKER_03]: Next sentence is, no, that doesn't mean ignoring injustice. 01:10:16.699 --> 01:10:18.780 [SPEAKER_03]: It means not letting it define your future. 01:10:18.840 --> 01:10:22.561 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, this is a very hard one, it's super, that's like super hero if you're right here. 01:10:22.601 --> 01:10:25.621 [SPEAKER_03]: That is true, but it's also, this is a very marriage thing. 01:10:26.001 --> 01:10:28.102 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a very, like, at least our relationship thing. 01:10:28.122 --> 01:10:28.942 [SPEAKER_03]: Let me refer to that. 01:10:29.142 --> 01:10:39.404 [SPEAKER_03]: Because I mean, whether you're in a relationship, like girlfriend boyfriend or whatever, or even a marriage or whatever, it's very, it's very hard because there are some times 01:10:42.806 --> 01:10:50.214 [SPEAKER_03]: We try to choose the piece because even though we may, we may be right and we're like, you know, a lot of us are very prideful and I think that that's in that's hard. 01:10:50.374 --> 01:10:53.397 [SPEAKER_02]: That's that's hard and when we're looking at that in justice. 01:10:54.118 --> 01:11:02.967 [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, as far as relationships, I always look at cheating because it's one of the biggest things that like that happens in a lot of relationships. 01:11:04.304 --> 01:11:08.185 [SPEAKER_02]: is, you know, being a man, like we're very prideful. 01:11:08.245 --> 01:11:18.349 [SPEAKER_02]: So if our spouse or whatever, like cheats, we look at that injustice and it completely defines the future of the relationship. 01:11:19.209 --> 01:11:28.212 [SPEAKER_02]: And what we're saying is, you don't have to let that single event define your future, 01:11:29.820 --> 01:11:34.723 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes like you just need to choose that, choose that piece. 01:11:35.283 --> 01:11:53.232 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I can say that because it's like if it happened once sure, but if you have a significant other where it's like two, three, four times that where we're saying very earlier, like, 01:11:55.180 --> 01:12:00.285 [SPEAKER_02]: you may have to look at eliminating that person that person's role from your life. 01:12:00.626 --> 01:12:09.335 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's one of those things that like, it doesn't mean that it has to define your future. 01:12:09.775 --> 01:12:12.698 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that injustice is not have to define your future. 01:12:13.659 --> 01:12:17.343 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, in the other big part of this too, like you've already mentioned before, is that, 01:12:18.049 --> 01:12:38.679 [SPEAKER_03]: It can complicate things, especially if there's individuals or circumstances that can make that harder, especially when you're talking about cheating, especially if you have kids, or if there's a complicated situation where, you know, sure you have kids, but you know, you're screwed either way because you don't know where you're gonna live or what, you know. 01:12:38.939 --> 01:12:40.200 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's all these different factors. 01:12:40.220 --> 01:12:42.301 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not saying that, yeah, you have to be set. 01:12:42.401 --> 01:12:46.283 [SPEAKER_03]: Like this is like you have to be in this situation because that's what it is. 01:12:47.112 --> 01:13:05.680 [SPEAKER_03]: What we're saying is that given your choice or given those things, you have to think of the bigger picture because whether or not you want to continuously live in a cycle of chaos all the time is really up to you, but at the end of the day, again, stress can kill you. 01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:11.003 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying there wouldn't be boundaries or consequences for the other person. 01:13:12.333 --> 01:13:19.696 [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have to let it define you, but it's not like you're just like, hey, let's just go back to the way we were before because that cannot happen. 01:13:20.136 --> 01:13:27.879 [SPEAKER_02]: Please, you're significant other who, you know, you're sad, you're mad for them cheating. 01:13:28.420 --> 01:13:30.100 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just going to go do it again. 01:13:30.981 --> 01:13:36.643 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to have those boundaries and you have to have those consequences and you have to be like, listen, 01:13:38.546 --> 01:13:43.787 [SPEAKER_02]: Every single night, like, you know, you need to give me your phone so that I can look through it. 01:13:43.847 --> 01:13:48.869 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you need to tell me where you are, wherever, whenever you go out. 01:13:48.909 --> 01:13:58.551 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, on phones, like, you're able to put, like, I mean, Danielle and I have this on our phones, even though, like, she has an iPhone I have an Android. 01:13:59.091 --> 01:14:03.012 [SPEAKER_02]: But like, I can pull out my phone and I can tell you exactly where she's at. 01:14:04.133 --> 01:14:29.863 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was also going to say the other, if we're talking about this piece, trust has to be earned again, and that's the biggest thing because if you're, if this already happened and you have to build that trust again because now you're you're in this state of, yep, you're already forgiven, you're already, you know, whatever, you're having to rebuild the same thing that you already have already had, but now you have to redo it all over again, but the trust is a big piece and I mean, unless you're, 01:14:31.303 --> 01:14:34.986 [SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're your partner, your spouse is like the CIA. 01:14:35.006 --> 01:14:36.467 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that too. 01:14:38.248 --> 01:14:50.797 [SPEAKER_02]: There should be really no, I mean, unless you're like just go like, you know, you need to get rid of your phone and live like as a hobbit in your house and not ever like You have to make up boundaries in the consequences at least 01:14:52.277 --> 01:15:21.115 [SPEAKER_02]: comparable, you know what I mean like right you just you can't make them like these impossible like expectation expectations that can't be followed but it's one of those things like you know i need to be able to see your text messages i need to be able to know who you're talking to you know if it's you know if it's you know if it's your wife or whatever you need to be like listen no more hugging any dude like if you're going to talk to somebody you know 01:15:23.260 --> 01:15:33.308 [SPEAKER_02]: Grab me, but it has to be like there has to be these consequences that like, you know, if you're texting up a guy, that's not me. 01:15:35.069 --> 01:15:52.143 [SPEAKER_02]: Include me in the thread, like, maybe it's not forever, but the other person has to earn that trust, they don't have to be sorry necessarily, because that's not what we're saying up like forgiveness isn't about them being sorry, it's not about them repenting. 01:15:53.412 --> 01:16:05.941 [SPEAKER_02]: But if they want to be part of the relationship and they don't want it to end, they're going to follow through as long as the consequences are followable, you know, like, as long as justifiable, too. 01:16:06.141 --> 01:16:06.821 [SPEAKER_02]: Justifiable. 01:16:06.942 --> 01:16:18.470 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, if we bring faith back into this, I kind of already said a lot of this, but forgiveness is framed as something we give because we received it. 01:16:19.450 --> 01:16:21.472 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we were forgiven for our sins, 01:16:23.260 --> 01:16:26.962 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not because we deserved it or the other person deserves it. 01:16:28.563 --> 01:16:41.150 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you take faith and you take biblical forgiveness, we are called to forgive because we didn't deserve it. 01:16:42.772 --> 01:16:46.633 [SPEAKER_02]: Like we don't deserve forgiveness from God, but he gives it to us, right? 01:16:46.674 --> 01:16:49.615 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what's called grace, you know? 01:16:50.495 --> 01:17:03.260 [SPEAKER_02]: And we are called to give forgiveness because the other person, you know, the other person doesn't deserve it, but because we received it, we are called to give it. 01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:11.103 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, when you look at that way, you look at it that way, like if flips that motivation of, yeah, they probably don't deserve it. 01:17:12.745 --> 01:17:14.146 [SPEAKER_02]: But we're still called to do that. 01:17:15.127 --> 01:17:20.872 [SPEAKER_02]: No matter if they lied to you, if they cheated you, if they robbed you, if they, whatever, no matter. 01:17:21.813 --> 01:17:22.814 [SPEAKER_02]: We're called to do it. 01:17:22.954 --> 01:17:36.467 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the easiest thing to do and I understand, like saying it and doing it are completely different things, but when you're looking at, like, I've been a Christian for a long time, 01:17:37.758 --> 01:17:42.639 [SPEAKER_02]: And my Bible says, I should forgive because I was forgiven. 01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:54.342 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not like, you should forgive when you feel like it or you should forgive when the situation is right. 01:17:55.262 --> 01:17:58.803 [SPEAKER_02]: It just says to forgive, it's an action. 01:17:58.823 --> 01:18:03.424 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, it's not, it's easier said than done 01:18:09.262 --> 01:18:31.748 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just, I'm just throwing it out there like that's what the word says and true and I think you know looking at some of the facts here right so especially like what we've been talking about so you know for example right so research and you know positive psychology links forgiveness practices with improved emotional regulation reduce stress and better long-term mental health outcomes. 01:18:33.368 --> 01:18:35.771 [SPEAKER_03]: And then forgive this interventions and therapy. 01:18:36.311 --> 01:18:36.712 [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting. 01:18:37.012 --> 01:18:41.637 [SPEAKER_03]: Have shown measurable improvements and mood, anxiety levels and overall life like satisfaction. 01:18:41.957 --> 01:18:43.418 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm pretty sure we've already said this. 01:18:43.919 --> 01:18:44.940 [SPEAKER_03]: Stress can kill you. 01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:47.302 [SPEAKER_03]: Exiety, moods, all these other things. 01:18:47.322 --> 01:18:56.311 [SPEAKER_03]: If you actually just do it or at least work on it and have the hopefully the right supports and all these things, 01:18:57.152 --> 01:19:03.295 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean you have to live in this anger cycle that most people feel like that is an easier way to live. 01:19:03.775 --> 01:19:04.336 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not. 01:19:04.416 --> 01:19:05.456 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, because it's really not. 01:19:05.856 --> 01:19:07.977 [SPEAKER_03]: It's really probably the worst thing you could ever do. 01:19:08.678 --> 01:19:24.005 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, especially where, you know, I'm going to say this for a quick two-minute, you know, people will say that mental health or at least like, you know, seeing a therapist or, you know, practicing different things, whether it's spiritual, you know, physical, emotional, whatever. 01:19:24.065 --> 01:19:24.666 [SPEAKER_03]: What do we want to do? 01:19:25.669 --> 01:19:32.053 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they say it's a bunch of hoopla or like hoopla, you know, or like a bunch of basically bullshit. 01:19:32.273 --> 01:19:45.722 [SPEAKER_03]: I call, I call your bullshit with bullshit because it actually is proven that if you actually do, and not saying everyone has to have a therapist, so what I'm saying, what I'm saying is is if you actually work on. 01:19:46.881 --> 01:19:53.303 [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever it is, whether it's physical, emotional, spiritual, whatever that, whatever that section of your life is that you need more help on. 01:19:53.863 --> 01:20:00.585 [SPEAKER_03]: If you actually start to work on that, you know, by doing some of these things that we've already said, you can actually notice the real difference. 01:20:00.605 --> 01:20:07.187 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where I'm saying it, you know, if you're saying, well, okay, we'll fucking depressions, you know, it's a bunch of bullshit or anxiety. 01:20:07.707 --> 01:20:10.688 [SPEAKER_03]: No, because it's literally proven. 01:20:11.528 --> 01:20:18.089 [SPEAKER_03]: that a lot of your, especially physical and emotional have a lot to do with each other. 01:20:18.469 --> 01:20:31.111 [SPEAKER_03]: And so at the end of the day, you cannot tell me that your heart problems probably aren't connected to something that you probably have to do emotionally in your head. 01:20:32.352 --> 01:20:38.713 [SPEAKER_03]: And so at the end of the day, you do have to realize that none of the shit that we're saying is actually bullshit. 01:20:38.753 --> 01:20:39.253 [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually 01:20:40.122 --> 01:20:40.863 [SPEAKER_03]: There are facts. 01:20:40.903 --> 01:20:43.905 [SPEAKER_03]: There are things that you have to learn and actually hopefully do. 01:20:44.386 --> 01:20:48.049 [SPEAKER_03]: And so when Matt was talking about the whole, you know, it's easier said than done. 01:20:48.249 --> 01:20:48.790 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, guess what? 01:20:50.111 --> 01:20:52.073 [SPEAKER_03]: You got to do, you got to start from somewhere. 01:20:52.714 --> 01:20:58.379 [SPEAKER_03]: And whether that takes you, you know, five days the learn or fucking 25 years the learn. 01:20:59.059 --> 01:21:00.220 [SPEAKER_03]: At least you're starting it. 01:21:00.681 --> 01:21:00.861 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:21:01.001 --> 01:21:01.762 [SPEAKER_02]: At least you're doing it. 01:21:01.782 --> 01:21:03.784 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the whole idea behind evolve. 01:21:03.864 --> 01:21:05.085 [SPEAKER_02]: And I will say this like, 01:21:07.462 --> 01:21:20.071 [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to, you know, forgiveness and doing all this stuff, because it is important and not all situations are forgivable, like extreme, I like to. 01:21:20.371 --> 01:21:28.477 [SPEAKER_02]: You may just have somebody who fibbed and that just sets you into that grudge mode, it sets you into that like, 01:21:30.153 --> 01:21:41.049 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they said this and they lied like maybe they were like, well, they were going to pick me up at seven and they never showed so now I hate them forever and it just one of those things is like 01:21:43.504 --> 01:21:57.209 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not like forgiveness isn't always like these huge events like, oh, my, my wife cheated on me or my husband, you know cheated on me or what I like doesn't have to be like these huge events. 01:21:58.089 --> 01:22:10.434 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be just something simple like John was supposed to come to my house and he never did that month and yeah, you know, I call them and he didn't answer and like now I'm just like, well, we're supposed to go out now I feel wrong. 01:22:13.413 --> 01:22:14.273 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a stupid thing. 01:22:14.313 --> 01:22:18.956 [SPEAKER_02]: Like he could have been busy, but I'm not looking at what his situation is. 01:22:19.016 --> 01:22:21.597 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just looking at like he said this. 01:22:21.937 --> 01:22:22.698 [SPEAKER_02]: He's not here. 01:22:23.258 --> 01:22:25.959 [SPEAKER_02]: So he still must be a prick and been blowing me off. 01:22:25.999 --> 01:22:28.440 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, you're right. 01:22:29.001 --> 01:22:31.522 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not like a huge event. 01:22:32.022 --> 01:22:35.664 [SPEAKER_02]: And when we look at now like our blueprint challenge, 01:22:42.988 --> 01:22:53.470 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether you do it or not, is completely irrelevant to the challenge, but we hope that you guys are looking at these challenges and actually trying to do them because this one's pretty simple. 01:22:54.850 --> 01:22:59.951 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's not like I said, it's sounds simple, but it can be as simple as just doing it. 01:23:00.891 --> 01:23:04.932 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you think of one person that you're still angry at. 01:23:06.312 --> 01:23:11.933 [SPEAKER_02]: Ask yourself one honest question is holding on to this actually helping me anymore. 01:23:14.818 --> 01:23:23.022 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not whether they deserved it, it's not whether they have apologized, not whether they were wrong, just this. 01:23:24.463 --> 01:23:28.425 [SPEAKER_02]: What is this anger costing you right now? 01:23:29.866 --> 01:23:32.027 [SPEAKER_03]: And so here's another piece to this, right? 01:23:32.107 --> 01:23:35.508 [SPEAKER_03]: So then do one thing this week to stop beating it, right? 01:23:35.528 --> 01:23:36.089 [SPEAKER_03]: So you can do, 01:23:37.076 --> 01:23:38.476 [SPEAKER_03]: just these four examples, right? 01:23:39.157 --> 01:23:40.617 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't replay the argument again. 01:23:41.137 --> 01:23:42.718 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't stock their social media. 01:23:42.958 --> 01:23:43.778 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, for God's sake. 01:23:43.838 --> 01:23:44.558 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't get it. 01:23:44.638 --> 01:23:46.479 [SPEAKER_03]: Dang it, you'd stop being a stalker, John. 01:23:47.619 --> 01:23:50.320 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't bring the situation up for the hundred-time. 01:23:51.080 --> 01:23:53.541 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't let that hurt to find your mood for the entire day. 01:23:53.901 --> 01:23:54.461 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, man. 01:23:54.601 --> 01:23:55.941 [SPEAKER_03]: See that, that, that, that, no, I'm John. 01:23:56.361 --> 01:23:57.982 [SPEAKER_03]: He's like, but those are, I mean, true. 01:23:59.205 --> 01:24:02.770 [SPEAKER_02]: If you do anything, I mean, you could do all of these. 01:24:03.450 --> 01:24:04.612 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you know, it's not going to be meant. 01:24:04.932 --> 01:24:07.756 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't don't replay the argument. 01:24:07.816 --> 01:24:12.422 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't don't go on their social media and judge every little thing that they're doing. 01:24:13.463 --> 01:24:17.368 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't keep bringing up like the same topic all the time. 01:24:18.469 --> 01:24:20.871 [SPEAKER_02]: Did you hear about something like, just stop it? 01:24:21.051 --> 01:24:24.494 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and John stops stalking me into my house. 01:24:24.535 --> 01:24:26.456 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll say, I knew you were going to say that. 01:24:26.556 --> 01:24:27.998 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just randomly showing up. 01:24:28.038 --> 01:24:28.438 [SPEAKER_03]: That'd be great. 01:24:28.458 --> 01:24:32.702 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, don't let the hurt define your mood for the entire day. 01:24:32.762 --> 01:24:37.706 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, even if you do one, that's fine. 01:24:37.726 --> 01:24:41.930 [SPEAKER_02]: But like, you could seriously do a lot of these and just focus on today. 01:24:42.691 --> 01:24:42.891 [SPEAKER_03]: True. 01:24:43.439 --> 01:24:45.781 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, don't replay the argument today. 01:24:46.502 --> 01:24:48.724 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't stock their social media today. 01:24:49.405 --> 01:24:53.069 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't bring the situation up today. 01:24:54.570 --> 01:24:57.373 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't let that hurt to find your mood today. 01:24:57.453 --> 01:24:58.274 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know what I mean? 01:25:00.176 --> 01:25:04.581 [SPEAKER_02]: You can stop feeding into that anger in that situation and 01:25:07.354 --> 01:25:32.033 [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty much it like you, you don't have to make your goal of becoming best friends again, or in a reconciling the relationship, the goal is just taking that one step towards peace, instead of marinating in your anger and your guilt and your trauma and whatever 01:25:36.939 --> 01:25:41.782 [SPEAKER_03]: So here's our little closing note here, you know, forgiveness isn't clean. 01:25:42.102 --> 01:25:44.583 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not easy, and it's definitely isn't fair. 01:25:45.464 --> 01:25:49.546 [SPEAKER_03]: So neither is carrying something for years that was only meant to hurt you once. 01:25:49.926 --> 01:25:53.228 [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe the real effort isn't the one you shout when you're angry. 01:25:53.788 --> 01:25:58.851 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's the one you say when you're finally done being controlled by it, either way, that's on you. 01:25:59.832 --> 01:26:02.173 [SPEAKER_03]: So stay connected, stay thinking, 01:26:03.907 --> 01:26:07.273 [SPEAKER_03]: And as always, you need to stay geeky.