WEBVTT 00:03.001 --> 00:20.588 [SPEAKER_01]: Here and more has just revealed that this might be his first ever podcast and it is a gay ass podcast Here and how does it feel to be on a gay ass podcast as your first? 00:20.956 --> 00:38.184 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I think it feels right to Karen because you are someone that I have truly been a fan of ever since I saw you in boots I don't know if you know this, but your cast member Angus O'Brien came on that's a gay ass podcast and I've messaged him yesterday about you coming on and he sends all of his love. 00:38.384 --> 00:42.030 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love Angus, I did see that he came to the premiere, which is great. 00:43.072 --> 00:44.334 [SPEAKER_00]: I love Angus so much. 00:44.654 --> 00:45.816 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope mine. 00:45.796 --> 00:47.698 [SPEAKER_00]: As fun to watch as well. 00:47.858 --> 00:57.227 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, Karen, it already is because we are breaking new ground with your first podcast but also to talk about blue film, which I literally just finished watching. 00:57.387 --> 01:01.230 [SPEAKER_01]: And can I say a huge Mazeltov for your performance in that? 01:01.330 --> 01:04.794 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, I know, a controversial film, I know people are. 01:05.154 --> 01:13.862 [SPEAKER_01]: There's been headlines about people leaving the theater during it, but at the end of the day, it is a film that so speaks to the queer experience and speaks to, 01:13.842 --> 01:23.097 [SPEAKER_01]: themes of shame and as a fellow actress, Karen, you are giving a performance that is absolutely divine and I wanted to say again, congratulations. 01:23.297 --> 01:24.559 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you feel proud. 01:24.779 --> 01:26.202 [SPEAKER_00]: That's very, very kind of you. 01:26.482 --> 01:28.225 [SPEAKER_00]: I am super proud of it. 01:28.706 --> 01:31.931 [SPEAKER_00]: I will never tire at the kind of compliment, so thank you. 01:32.852 --> 01:35.116 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, you know, do my job, I guess. 01:35.136 --> 01:36.458 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad it's worth it. 01:36.438 --> 01:47.385 [SPEAKER_01]: It really is and I think that we obviously want to get into the themes of the movie, especially you playing this character of a camboy who has offered $50,000 to spend a night with an older man. 01:47.445 --> 01:52.477 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to get into too much of the plot twist because I want our listeners to really have that experience. 01:52.557 --> 01:52.978 [SPEAKER_01]: But 01:52.958 --> 01:55.041 [SPEAKER_01]: It is an incredibly heavy film. 01:55.141 --> 01:56.163 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very intense. 01:56.303 --> 01:56.964 [SPEAKER_01]: It's vulnerable. 01:57.004 --> 01:58.266 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be shocking at times. 01:58.326 --> 02:06.940 [SPEAKER_01]: And so yes, I want to talk about those themes, but because we are a gay ass podcast, we're going to start a little lighter, just to give you the emotional journey of what's about to happen. 02:07.721 --> 02:16.755 [SPEAKER_01]: First question that as a gay as journalist, I must ask you, your boots, co-stars, miles and angus recently took a trip to Mexico together. 02:16.735 --> 02:20.040 [SPEAKER_01]: was that hard for you to see, is there anything you would like to say to them? 02:20.060 --> 02:23.305 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I didn't get an invitation, so I'm truly jealous. 02:23.585 --> 02:27.831 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, I think it's really fucked up that they didn't invite you, and I think that you should really quickly. 02:27.891 --> 02:29.614 [SPEAKER_00]: They looked good, they looked good. 02:29.994 --> 02:31.617 [SPEAKER_00]: And beach pictures were given it. 02:31.957 --> 02:34.000 [SPEAKER_00]: I need to know Miles is gibberish. 02:34.180 --> 02:35.142 [SPEAKER_00]: He looks like a home. 02:35.382 --> 02:36.043 [SPEAKER_00]: It was incredible. 02:36.023 --> 02:43.432 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe I don't know if like Angus is doing the personal training because Angus is like such a master of the gym, but whatever Miles is doing. 02:44.173 --> 02:54.104 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, what would you say then when it comes to your experience with boots to start us out, you're sort of finding a lot of these queer projects that are coming into your orbit. 02:54.545 --> 02:57.368 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you say that that is happening? 02:57.448 --> 03:04.056 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you always had an openness to expression, especially as a straight guy that I think canonically straight guys are like, 03:04.036 --> 03:06.503 [SPEAKER_01]: there's always gay panic, but you don't seem to have gay panic. 03:06.683 --> 03:08.589 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I would just really know myself. 03:08.649 --> 03:19.058 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've actually asked myself the questions and the start with myself, my own humanity and I've really tried to figure out who I am on the way and that's made me just so 03:19.038 --> 03:22.426 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been very lucky that I've been welcomed by so many different kinds of people. 03:23.689 --> 03:26.436 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I guess it's not something that I've actively saw. 03:26.456 --> 03:30.967 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's actually a good representation of what we're getting more queer projects, which is great, you know. 03:31.909 --> 03:35.578 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what, you know, I want to see more projects of all kinds really, but 03:35.558 --> 03:38.103 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, boots definitely have been the door I believe. 03:38.263 --> 03:53.213 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope so, you know, and then obviously Bluefilm is, I guess, a polar opposite from, from Blue's, but it does get to explore themes that sort of run with, you know, within the community and I guess, across all, you bunny really. 03:53.193 --> 03:59.123 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's also like I think there's something interesting when you talk about the crossover between boots and blue film, like the idea of masculinity. 03:59.143 --> 03:59.904 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's huge. 03:59.944 --> 04:07.997 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said to Angus watching boots was at times hard because it kind of brought me back to the assholes of PE and of my like high school in the Midwest. 04:08.538 --> 04:15.269 [SPEAKER_01]: But, of course, on the other side of it, it's just discussing the vulnerability that men can and should access. 04:16.330 --> 04:21.158 [SPEAKER_01]: But because we are getting into the past, I think it's only 04:21.138 --> 04:35.383 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's, take two, but because we're talking about the past, I think it is very apt for me to ask you, the podcast question that I ask, the straight men on this podcast or the straight people, you're our only second straight man. 04:35.483 --> 04:36.745 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you feel good about that. 04:37.146 --> 04:43.998 [SPEAKER_01]: The first straight man on this podcast was John Marcos Rizzi, who's an amazing comedian, and now it's Kieran, God damn more. 04:44.339 --> 04:46.302 [SPEAKER_01]: Kieran Moore, the question is, 04:46.282 --> 04:48.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Who was your first gay? 04:48.486 --> 04:53.113 [SPEAKER_01]: What made you so into us or what made us so into you? 04:53.173 --> 04:54.015 [SPEAKER_01]: What's your her story? 04:54.516 --> 05:05.413 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my first gay is my cousin is a gay man and he's like, it's a few years older than me so I'm one of the youngest cousins. 05:06.034 --> 05:07.617 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on my other side. 05:08.218 --> 05:11.884 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, 05:11.864 --> 05:13.566 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, different ways of love. 05:13.586 --> 05:14.887 [SPEAKER_00]: There's different ideas of love. 05:15.287 --> 05:23.455 [SPEAKER_00]: And my family were all very, you know, welcome in, understand that I grew up in a very work class place, which was when I talked to like, we've been boxing gyms around men all the time. 05:24.716 --> 05:35.406 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, my cousin, I would say, and then, I don't know, maybe maybe the gaze found me and took me in and, you know, I think my favorite thing about my, my gay friends is the level of comfort like it. 05:35.466 --> 05:39.930 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no peacock in, it's just kind of like, 05:39.910 --> 05:44.859 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, if I got my straight friends, it's like a volatility in the air, there's like a something good going on. 05:44.879 --> 05:46.943 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm on edge and there's a little bit of a tense thing. 05:46.963 --> 05:47.604 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what it is. 05:47.664 --> 05:53.134 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas when I got up my girlfriends, I'm just dancing and I don't care about anyone else. 05:53.154 --> 05:56.620 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, well, we kept all care about each other and it's like really cute for them. 05:56.600 --> 05:58.424 [SPEAKER_01]: you know what, say that here and more. 05:58.584 --> 06:09.589 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the statistics, the statistical possibility of a fight breaking out is probably tenfold when you're with your straight guy friends, then when you're with a bunch of gay guys. 06:09.649 --> 06:13.377 [SPEAKER_01]: The only fights that they're having are about Mariah Carey and Madonna, you know. 06:13.576 --> 06:30.083 [SPEAKER_01]: who's next on the karaoke you know what's about literally who's next on the karaoke who has the poppers who is who stole my tank top where a straight man or like what do you call me I'm going to punch your jaw and which I don't miss I don't miss that. 06:30.063 --> 06:44.864 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think like looking back in hindsight, it's always interesting when people meet me as I am now and sort of like, they're right there as about me, you know, my sleeve and if I'm not talking, I look a bit stern, people call me think I was like the naughty, given high school, but I was a really sensitive. 06:45.365 --> 06:48.409 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I was always on like the end of like, 06:48.608 --> 06:50.211 [SPEAKER_00]: homophobic jokes anyway. 06:51.473 --> 06:59.348 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think in that, I kind of gained like a sort of a fearlessness of like an embrace from the gay community within that I guess. 06:59.368 --> 07:00.931 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's, do you know what? 07:00.951 --> 07:07.242 [SPEAKER_01]: That makes a lot of sense to me because I think that the 07:08.487 --> 07:23.656 [SPEAKER_01]: worse straight men are the men who never had to experience feeling other because I think that's like you're saying if you have been the sensitive kid who was either bullied or called gay or whatever it is, you are getting the gay experience whether you like it or not. 07:23.837 --> 07:27.103 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that that's 07:27.083 --> 07:44.067 [SPEAKER_01]: That's probably why in a way you're able to access such a beautiful range when performing these roles because you have had the feeling of being other or of, you know, being a sensitive guy in the working class town you grew up with, um, quick, uh, drama, turgical question though about your cousin who came out. 07:44.368 --> 07:46.611 [SPEAKER_01]: When he came out, do you remember how you felt? 07:46.912 --> 07:51.698 [SPEAKER_01]: Was he the first person that you were like, oh, wait, gay people exist and was there like a shock to it at all? 07:52.039 --> 07:54.322 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, this is going back a while. 07:54.563 --> 07:57.006 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I was, I was quite 07:57.931 --> 08:06.487 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, my mom is like an absolute diamond, you know, she's just filled with so much love, so you're just kind of like, oh, your cousin has a boyfriend now. 08:07.048 --> 08:07.629 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what's that? 08:07.649 --> 08:10.534 [SPEAKER_00]: And you just kind of like, okay, and oh, your cousin's boyfriend's coming to the Christmas dinner. 08:10.554 --> 08:13.440 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay, you know, it's like, you were just, there was nothing about it. 08:13.460 --> 08:15.163 [SPEAKER_00]: There was no sort of, 08:15.616 --> 08:16.878 [SPEAKER_00]: huge explanation. 08:16.938 --> 08:19.141 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just kind of like immediately ordinary. 08:19.582 --> 08:35.105 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think I remember the first time I saw, I think I remember the first time I saw two men kiss on a soap in England, which is crazy that's happened in my life that I've seen in that moment, you know, being very young. 08:35.365 --> 08:36.527 [SPEAKER_00]: But he was just kind of like 08:36.980 --> 08:43.435 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for our family, we just, like, yeah, that's just, that's just who Steven is and that's that's kind of what we're looking at. 08:44.277 --> 08:52.356 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's shout out your mom then for a second because all the parents who did and do the right thing are gems and we always shout them out. 08:52.336 --> 09:13.422 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like they're like the men in your family too or clearly like had to be okay with the two probably because of like the Example that your mom and the other people in your family were I've never really liked spend I mean my family is woman heavy So my sister my mom was like two sisters my dad has three sisters. 09:14.404 --> 09:16.386 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a sister 09:16.366 --> 09:24.098 [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess there wasn't many men, you know, all of the men in my media family were like married into, you know, so they were kind of 09:24.668 --> 09:26.049 [SPEAKER_00]: not they became Lord I guess. 09:27.211 --> 09:30.054 [SPEAKER_00]: But the people I spent the most time growing up were wouldn't, yeah. 09:30.074 --> 09:31.695 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, shut all my mum. 09:31.716 --> 09:34.539 [SPEAKER_00]: And my mum's a dinner lady at my high school. 09:34.679 --> 09:37.021 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I used to walk to school with her like high school. 09:37.502 --> 09:43.008 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, all of her friends were the women in the kitchen and they befriended me and they had kids that went to school. 09:43.068 --> 09:46.691 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, their sons are part of different communities. 09:46.772 --> 09:50.035 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, my mum's best friends. 09:50.015 --> 10:09.610 [SPEAKER_00]: was that I was introduced to my first trans community was the first person in the trans community I was aware of when and I was like what I must have been 15, you know, it was also, yeah, so it's a yeah, I've been in a way of like a quite an inclusive life, but I've also had the complete opposite, you know, like I've grew up in boxing jeans where 10:09.590 --> 10:26.502 [SPEAKER_00]: it was like all bravado holly so I've been I've been very lucky as everything's led to acting in a way that when I read a character now I'm like I know I know that person I've seen this person I've got a very good understanding of different sort of people within certain environments so I'm very grateful for that. 10:26.617 --> 10:48.388 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, let's get into that then because blue film really is about shame in many ways and you're talking about growing up in these, you know, boxing gyms and around such toxic masculinity, but I find that straight men are not often asked about their shame specifically, would you say that there is something that you dealt with growing up or even still deal with that would bring you shame in any way. 10:49.465 --> 10:54.565 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, um, I don't know, I'll just talk about this with, uh, with a friend of the night. 10:55.027 --> 10:59.003 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I guess my, the thing that I always draw. 10:59.658 --> 11:05.810 [SPEAKER_00]: all query shame the most with I guess is when it comes to endeavours but I when it comes to sexualism. 11:05.830 --> 11:07.714 [SPEAKER_00]: My mum would admit when they were 16 years old. 11:08.215 --> 11:11.402 [SPEAKER_00]: So like I only ever they were only ever with each other. 11:11.502 --> 11:17.193 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was kind of something that I yearned for I think from the early age and they broke up when I was like 25 years later. 11:17.233 --> 11:19.658 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like an adult. 11:19.638 --> 11:45.797 [SPEAKER_00]: So watching them sort of navigate their lives at a much later stage was really interesting for me, but I think it always kind of It may be boxed me in a little bit with my own relationship because I was like every person I met if it wasn't well, I was like this is gonna be forever and then when it was and I think that sort of creates like a snowball effect of shame You know because it's kind of like oh, I made a bad decision or this person wasn't right my intuition was a right all these things But it's something that I've learned to grow within you know 11:46.739 --> 11:52.267 [SPEAKER_00]: give myself some grace with, you know, and I think you look every person becomes a chapter, I guess. 11:53.008 --> 12:01.421 [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess that's probably the way I sort of my look into shame initially, but then I really get books and you get different insights. 12:01.461 --> 12:04.545 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very curious about just people, you know. 12:05.867 --> 12:10.654 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the only way you can really get them all them is to try and you have a hard time 12:10.634 --> 12:18.029 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll come up with empathy, so I would never want to take anyone else's struggle, I don't think I can, but I can try my best to listen and sympathise and understand it. 12:18.470 --> 12:20.875 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how the beauty of the character that I'm getting to play so far. 12:20.936 --> 12:24.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I always say this to people at the time, it's a comment. 12:24.483 --> 12:28.812 [SPEAKER_00]: It's complicated with art to mine, how, because, you know, 12:29.045 --> 12:33.293 [SPEAKER_00]: and everyone should be represented and getting the opportunities. 12:33.653 --> 12:39.985 [SPEAKER_00]: But then there is also this thing as well of like, if I only play myself, what does that mean as an actor? 12:40.846 --> 12:42.309 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to play care in every single day. 12:42.329 --> 12:42.970 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to do that. 12:43.090 --> 12:43.872 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to play other people. 12:43.932 --> 12:48.420 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to get to know people, and I have so much in common with people now through like, 12:48.400 --> 12:53.146 [SPEAKER_00]: like blue films, some of the things I've got to talk about because of this new in the people that I've met, it's incredible. 12:53.727 --> 12:59.073 [SPEAKER_00]: And blue stood up for me to, um, yeah, I think I run with it. 12:59.474 --> 13:11.809 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's because I just finished watching the film some sort of more emotionally, uh, open or fraught than I normally would have been, but you talking about relationships, started to bring tears to my eyes because I, 13:11.789 --> 13:21.051 [SPEAKER_01]: Have the same thing and I and I I've been with my husband for it'll be 13 years But I remember the first five years that we were dating. 13:21.091 --> 13:30.152 [SPEAKER_01]: If we were in either a not great place I immediately my brain went to we are fucked 13:30.132 --> 13:32.374 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trapped in this relationship. 13:33.035 --> 13:44.167 [SPEAKER_01]: I am repeating the things that either my parents had struggled through or other couples have struggled through and I had a lot of shame that I chose wrong. 13:44.688 --> 13:54.098 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that there's so much more nuance, so many more nuances to relationships and there's so much more of a gray area and like you're saying, everybody has different chapters. 13:54.078 --> 14:03.153 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just want to I just want to like co-sign what you said about that because that really transcends sexuality It really it's just a human experience. 14:03.353 --> 14:10.605 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes you think that doesn't it's like, you know, is is the Is the shave knife feel does it stem from an awareness? 14:10.685 --> 14:15.293 [SPEAKER_00]: At least I have that awareness because I talk about our own a lot in that sense that I think our own 14:15.273 --> 14:17.136 [SPEAKER_00]: for me in the movie. 14:17.676 --> 14:25.167 [SPEAKER_00]: He represents so many people that across day today, which is kind of like, you know, we're all told this thing about like, you know, the first step to anything is awareness. 14:25.428 --> 14:25.808 [SPEAKER_00]: And it is. 14:26.389 --> 14:27.991 [SPEAKER_00]: But then I really kind of stopped there. 14:28.332 --> 14:30.014 [SPEAKER_00]: And like a lot of people do that. 14:30.034 --> 14:31.977 [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of got like, well, I'm horrific. 14:32.398 --> 14:33.720 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the worst thing that existed. 14:33.960 --> 14:34.861 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm aware of it. 14:34.901 --> 14:35.502 [SPEAKER_00]: That's okay. 14:35.522 --> 14:36.724 [SPEAKER_00]: You're kind of like, no, no, no. 14:36.704 --> 15:01.767 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to do the work then you have to go past that point and I think that's why it's like Karen's isn't like sorry to invoke the name Karen, but I feel like Karen is the person a Karen is the definition of someone who just says I'm a fucking bitch and then says period versus I have anger or I feel in it can be about anybody can be a fucking bitchy gay guy it can be I mean it's people who 15:01.747 --> 15:15.445 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, awareness is one step but that's why therapy exists is because then the awareness leads you to the next part of your journey which is like the why is the how do I move through how do I act based on how I'm feeling? 15:16.106 --> 15:19.911 [SPEAKER_01]: As the therapy obsessed gay are you in therapy? 15:19.931 --> 15:20.713 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you been in therapy? 15:20.733 --> 15:21.814 [SPEAKER_01]: What's your relation to that? 15:21.794 --> 15:23.116 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I've done therapy. 15:24.037 --> 15:30.565 [SPEAKER_00]: As of late, I've been on a bit of a break because I've been, I've been journaling, which is something that I always thought was a bit woo-woo. 15:30.725 --> 15:31.827 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't lie. 15:31.887 --> 15:43.862 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I always thought, like, when people like you should try journaling, I was a bit like, come on, like, and what I'm gonna do is like, you know, right in a few pages here and there and I always thought it was quite like maybe, I don't know, there was just something that they kind of put me off. 15:43.902 --> 15:51.632 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was also kind of like, I always wanted to write a diary as a kid, but I was like, I only have to use the write the bad days, whenever a good day I forgot about what you know what I mean. 15:51.612 --> 15:56.842 [SPEAKER_00]: and I've like, because I've wrote so much poetry, it's kind of like they feel like a diary, I know where I was when I wrote it. 15:57.202 --> 16:03.334 [SPEAKER_00]: But I adopted that and I've been going now for like I started like late last year and I wrote in it every single day. 16:03.374 --> 16:06.038 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's like pages, sometimes it's a couple of little bits. 16:06.519 --> 16:09.064 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's been the most therapeutic thing. 16:09.044 --> 16:10.988 [SPEAKER_00]: for you. 16:11.689 --> 16:18.101 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been told that would that would help me a lot and I just like can't get myself to put pen to paper. 16:18.121 --> 16:19.964 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like my handwriting is shitty. 16:20.085 --> 16:27.338 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I don't have the help of anyone's face and just you and you and you like you already judge yourself. 16:27.719 --> 16:29.382 [SPEAKER_00]: It's at the first couple of weeks. 16:29.362 --> 16:30.443 [SPEAKER_00]: You had a line in it. 16:30.463 --> 16:36.130 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I remember writing the first couple of pages a couple of days and being like, when will I be honest enough to talk about things that only I am gonna read? 16:36.150 --> 16:41.936 [SPEAKER_00]: And then eventually it kind of breaks down this barrio, which is kind of like, now I find myself we're out at a different needs of things. 16:41.956 --> 16:43.979 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I don't need to express this right now. 16:43.999 --> 16:45.200 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going right about that later. 16:45.220 --> 16:48.444 [SPEAKER_00]: And that'll be okay and it's, that's the form such a good checking for me. 16:48.484 --> 16:51.467 [SPEAKER_00]: But I completely, you know, I vouch for therapy completely. 16:51.507 --> 16:53.269 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have my positive experiences. 16:55.011 --> 16:56.753 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think as long as you're like, 16:56.733 --> 17:15.062 [SPEAKER_00]: finding some form of honesty with yourself and even if that's like someone that's just listening, I think that's important because I think that's also like a massive part of, I guess the theme of shame and judgment is this inability to sort of approach anything that truthful about ourselves, I just don't 17:15.042 --> 17:33.509 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, that's the thing I think in blue film too, that is done so well as both of the characters you and Reed Bernie are really facing their own realities, and I think that there's something that's very scary about being like, no, this is actually who I am or how I, you know, people might perceive me in X way, but who I really am is even scarier. 17:33.529 --> 17:40.239 [SPEAKER_01]: I find though that's interesting about the film as like a fellow creative person, you know, I've had this podcast for five years. 17:40.479 --> 17:41.100 [SPEAKER_01]: I've 17:41.080 --> 17:58.954 [SPEAKER_01]: a bunch of other projects that I've you know take a lot of heart and soul but blue film was actually rejected from Sundance from South by Southwest people I mentioned at the beginning walked out of certain screenings but now you're getting this theatrical run it's a New York Times critics pick 17:58.934 --> 18:24.537 [SPEAKER_01]: I find that that's really like inspiring creative journey, would you say that you as either an actor or a creative person have dealt with any rejections that at the moment felt either career ending or like super dire that ended up being whether it was positive or just a step on your journey that was there for a reason? 18:24.922 --> 18:33.110 [SPEAKER_00]: I look at where I'm sat right now, having this interview with you, talking about this movie, I'm sat in New York, which is a place I've grew up watching, and I go all of them things happen for a reason. 18:33.330 --> 18:37.374 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can try and remind myself of that when these things are like coming at me. 18:38.175 --> 18:40.297 [SPEAKER_00]: As an answer, you're getting rejected every other day. 18:40.337 --> 18:43.600 [SPEAKER_00]: It's part of the process. 18:43.941 --> 18:53.410 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to sort of, I don't even want to say, get a thick skin, I just think you have to just like move with it, it is just like, because I don't think you should ignore it, you should be doing things that hurt, 18:53.390 --> 18:55.192 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that you care about, you know. 18:56.393 --> 18:59.936 [SPEAKER_00]: The movie in it, I just always had this feeling that it was going to be okay. 19:00.296 --> 19:07.763 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I was, you know, once my team finally saw the final court, they were kind of like really set a bridge with it. 19:07.883 --> 19:12.647 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were scattered at first, you know, we were like, this is a very difficult subject, my own, your first feature. 19:12.707 --> 19:14.529 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was kind of like, I think it's the right thing to do. 19:14.649 --> 19:16.350 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I could do something with it. 19:16.371 --> 19:17.872 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when they saw it, they were really set a bridge. 19:17.892 --> 19:19.633 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I kind of like, maybe what put me at use? 19:19.653 --> 19:22.536 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were very confident about 19:22.516 --> 19:24.761 [SPEAKER_00]: and then you kept getting sort of turned away. 19:24.781 --> 19:27.667 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was just sort of like, it'll be okay. 19:27.707 --> 19:29.791 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the prize for me is always the doing it. 19:29.951 --> 19:34.461 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's the thing that I always try and say to my friends, I don't worry about anything else, the extra stuff, all of that is a bonus. 19:34.962 --> 19:38.128 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got a really enjoy the process and that's got to be enough. 19:38.108 --> 19:41.653 [SPEAKER_00]: because otherwise I just eat you alive, you know, you can't please everyone. 19:41.914 --> 19:49.285 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the movie itself stands as a testament to like persistence and like using your voice and get it open. 19:49.685 --> 20:01.183 [SPEAKER_00]: But also I guess the audience have been the final part of our movie, you know, audience is being brave enough to go, being willing to challenge themselves, being willing to sit in this comfort to just be curious. 20:01.603 --> 20:07.272 [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess also to be being a bit defined and being like who are you to tell me by will I will not like a movie? 20:07.252 --> 20:09.756 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that, but it's a boldness to commence. 20:09.976 --> 20:35.352 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's, and actually the writer director talks about that very fact, I think, that it's exciting to have a piece of art that is not sort of either telling us how to feel or it's actually, you know, assuming that the audience is a smart audience, it is not, it is not a value judgment on either can boys or again, I'm not going to give away the twists of the movie, but like Reed Bernie's character. 20:35.332 --> 20:42.506 [SPEAKER_01]: What I do love the New York Times set is some of what feels good about Tuddle's movie is that for all of the places It's bold enough to go. 20:42.526 --> 20:44.650 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't describe it as fearless. 20:45.011 --> 20:47.997 [SPEAKER_01]: It's full of fears, and it's daring us to face them. 20:48.879 --> 20:51.484 [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, it's very fucking line. 20:51.464 --> 20:57.870 [SPEAKER_01]: Second of all, it's true, it's like what you are saying about even rejection as an actor. 20:57.930 --> 21:03.936 [SPEAKER_01]: We are not supposed to have thicker skin, we're supposed to take that as just a part of our experience. 21:04.036 --> 21:09.781 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's our persistence in spite of it, that is sort of I think the strength of a creative person. 21:10.442 --> 21:13.885 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the fact that blue film was rejected by all these festivals and guess what? 21:14.246 --> 21:17.809 [SPEAKER_01]: It is still finding its audience and now getting pushed out to theaters. 21:17.789 --> 21:31.984 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that is something that most people, but especially most creative people can take as inspiration to keep moving forward no matter what feedback, what quote unquote rejections you're getting. 21:32.588 --> 21:55.575 [SPEAKER_00]: But he's like fine, you've got to find your audience as well as you'd be honest, and if you're truthful, like Elliot scripts, as I'm not trying to, I don't want to speak for him, boys, it was the story that he wanted to tell, and he just believed it, and he had an opinion on it, and he wanted to just put that out there, and I think when you're that, I've looked, we didn't have loads of studio pressures, because we made the moon for very little money, so Elliot could really make the movie that he wanted to make. 21:55.555 --> 21:59.799 [SPEAKER_00]: And then regardless of all the rejection, it's finding the people that it's meant to. 21:59.859 --> 22:06.605 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really inspiring for anyone that's like, you know, wants to do something sure about the idea of what things they believe in it, go for it. 22:07.046 --> 22:24.702 [SPEAKER_00]: I also kind of like, as an actor, it's kind of, it's, for example, it's exemplary because it's like, you know, there's so many jobs that I really want, and then I don't get them and then I realise, oh, maybe I didn't want that as much as I thought, I did the idea, I like the idea of it, or even if I did, that's okay, but then 22:24.682 --> 22:31.015 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't make that make sense now, like it's, it's, you know, it's not, you can't please everyone with this industry. 22:31.035 --> 22:31.436 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 22:31.456 --> 22:36.146 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I want to say quick interjection to talk about the actoring booking of it all. 22:36.266 --> 22:41.096 [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of actors who've booked many jobs, read Bernie has done so many things. 22:41.417 --> 22:43.260 [SPEAKER_01]: I live in New York for over a decade. 22:43.361 --> 22:44.563 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw him in. 22:44.543 --> 22:52.495 [SPEAKER_01]: lot of plays and to see him in this film was very, very cool and he does such a phenomenal job. 22:53.156 --> 23:03.210 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to make sure to say that, but since we only have a few minutes left, I want to get into a few quick fire questions before we round this interview out, especially talking about Keer and Moore's relationship to us gaze. 23:04.012 --> 23:11.142 [SPEAKER_01]: What would you say does good ally ship look like for a straight man to be an ally to us queers? 23:11.122 --> 23:29.822 [SPEAKER_00]: I think from my experience is just, I'm just listening really and just sort of not coming to it like I have all the ideas, there's not an element of, I'm not, I'm there to be there for you and support you and 23:29.802 --> 23:31.205 [SPEAKER_00]: be relied upon. 23:32.427 --> 23:35.373 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I should be taking the forefront and taking the voice away. 23:35.413 --> 23:37.357 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a case of like, I'm just stood by you. 23:37.598 --> 23:38.359 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's it. 23:38.379 --> 23:41.987 [SPEAKER_00]: But I also just have a willingness to see people and learn about yourself in the process. 23:42.007 --> 23:46.817 [SPEAKER_00]: I just think there's so many quote unquote straight men that just don't ask themselves questions. 23:46.877 --> 23:48.079 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a fear really. 23:48.099 --> 23:49.482 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a fear of like, 23:49.462 --> 23:50.363 [SPEAKER_00]: different loaves. 23:50.863 --> 24:01.254 [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess it's because it's not really a massive understanding of the love at all, which is quite sad to really, you know, be a platonic love, be a antique love, it's like there's no exploration of it. 24:02.275 --> 24:03.676 [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite a hundred percent. 24:03.936 --> 24:06.259 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, especially well it's like Manus first off going on as well. 24:06.279 --> 24:09.602 [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of be like, do you have any idea of what love to love is? 24:09.882 --> 24:11.684 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is it an exchange for you? 24:11.704 --> 24:11.984 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it? 24:12.405 --> 24:12.685 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it? 24:12.705 --> 24:13.486 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it manipulation? 24:13.506 --> 24:15.908 [SPEAKER_00]: And why is it just authentic and pure love? 24:15.989 --> 24:21.918 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's kind of crazy how far the fear of vulnerability can take an asshole straight man, you know? 24:22.218 --> 24:42.148 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think that is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what 24:42.128 --> 24:50.720 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, because I think that right now not to go too zoomed out into society, but I feel like we're built upon everything is built upon comfort now, right? 24:50.760 --> 24:53.985 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like everything is like AI's making things easier for us. 24:54.205 --> 24:56.549 [SPEAKER_01]: The dating apps are just so you can sit and bet and swipe. 24:56.689 --> 24:58.231 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like everything is a puzzle. 24:58.251 --> 25:02.217 [SPEAKER_01]: I think love is the least easy thing and it's the most horrible thing. 25:02.277 --> 25:05.942 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that different communities are taking it in different directions. 25:05.922 --> 25:12.292 [SPEAKER_01]: clear people are of course leaning into it because we need community as like the government is, you know, doing the fucked up shit they're doing. 25:12.612 --> 25:17.419 [SPEAKER_01]: Straight men are maybe going in one direction with the manosphere that is like, oh, we don't need love. 25:17.439 --> 25:31.120 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't need to actually be vulnerable people, but let's get that's actually going to lead into our next question for Kieran Moore to answer Kieran, what is one thing straight people should apologize for? 25:31.100 --> 25:34.007 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it is to sort of the deciding what love is is probably like the thing that we should apologize for. 25:34.028 --> 25:35.331 [SPEAKER_00]: That is an insane thing to be like, take a claim for. 25:35.371 --> 25:36.253 [SPEAKER_00]: What sort of social creatures insane to me? 25:36.273 --> 25:45.497 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, why do gamers, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm 25:47.047 --> 25:51.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, a famous straight man once said, love is love is love is love is love. 25:51.593 --> 25:57.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Lin Manuel Miranda, the voice of a generation, um, okay. 25:58.123 --> 26:03.230 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do our final podcast question, Kira Moore to celebrate blue, film to celebrate you coming on chaos podcast. 26:03.250 --> 26:07.796 [SPEAKER_01]: That question is, if the world was ending, you could only save one. 26:07.976 --> 26:12.042 [SPEAKER_01]: Character Actress, who would you say? 26:13.186 --> 26:16.051 [SPEAKER_00]: easy, uh, Glenclose, for sure. 26:16.071 --> 26:21.259 [SPEAKER_00]: A stream man with taste, a straight man with tongue, my leg was in the end, okay. 26:22.481 --> 26:23.803 [SPEAKER_00]: I, yeah, I'm obsessed with her. 26:24.104 --> 26:24.664 [SPEAKER_00]: She's so good. 26:24.685 --> 26:25.326 [SPEAKER_00]: That's my dream. 26:25.666 --> 26:27.870 [SPEAKER_00]: My dream is to like work with Glenclose. 26:27.890 --> 26:28.571 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what? 26:28.691 --> 26:31.836 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that you don't hold work. 26:31.816 --> 26:36.865 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it would, I mean, literally just did a movie with Reed Bernie as some of the lovers. 26:36.885 --> 26:39.930 [SPEAKER_01]: So like anything can happen, Glenn close. 26:39.970 --> 26:42.294 [SPEAKER_01]: You just put it into the universe and the universe is listening. 26:42.574 --> 26:52.131 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm just doing the universe and I hope that we can get Glenn closer and closer to you working with one of the best character actresses of our time. 26:52.511 --> 26:54.094 [SPEAKER_01]: What is stunning answer? 26:54.698 --> 26:56.601 [SPEAKER_01]: And Kieran Moore, what a stunning interview are. 26:56.681 --> 27:00.066 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to say that blue film is an unbelievable movie. 27:00.186 --> 27:01.669 [SPEAKER_01]: It is now playing in select theaters. 27:01.689 --> 27:05.975 [SPEAKER_01]: You can visit upskirtreleasing.com for cities and showtimes. 27:06.015 --> 27:08.258 [SPEAKER_01]: They are starting to release in other cities around the country. 27:08.659 --> 27:12.024 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope gas listeners, you can go and watch Kieran. 27:12.765 --> 27:14.608 [SPEAKER_01]: Kieran, is there any other, any final thoughts? 27:14.668 --> 27:15.710 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you actually have about this? 27:15.730 --> 27:17.593 [SPEAKER_01]: Will you tell these listeners where to follow you? 27:17.613 --> 27:19.896 [SPEAKER_01]: And if there's anything else you would like for them to know? 27:19.876 --> 27:24.100 [SPEAKER_00]: First, he'd thank you for the time and for anyone that's listened. 27:24.461 --> 27:25.762 [SPEAKER_00]: My Instagram is caring more. 27:26.383 --> 27:31.808 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to be a bit brave or recently, and I've got a lot of poetry page for KM.TheWords. 27:33.290 --> 27:34.811 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see how that goes. 27:35.572 --> 27:42.299 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, over and over now, I would just, you know, implore you to give blue film a go, you know, see where you sit. 27:42.859 --> 27:44.401 [SPEAKER_00]: However, you feel is okay. 27:44.781 --> 27:49.326 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love to hear people start, in my DMs, you know. 27:49.762 --> 27:58.610 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, Karen, we have put those links in the description for this episode, and again, thank you for what you've done in this film, but also in boots, I fucking love boots. 27:58.870 --> 28:08.179 [SPEAKER_01]: I will never stop being mad that we only have one season, but at least we got that season. 28:08.259 --> 28:18.368 [SPEAKER_01]: So, one hundred percent, we final thought, do anything you want to say to Angus O'Brien that I can pass along. 28:18.348 --> 28:22.905 [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, I love you so much and please drop the clip routine we're all begging for it. 28:23.527 --> 28:30.231 [SPEAKER_01]: Bam, well said.