[SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever looked at a film of the Kennedy assassination, I mean, really looked, then you've seen him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's standing in the deep shadow of the Texas School Book Depository doorway on the top landing behind the columns, watching the motorcade go by.
[SPEAKER_00]: This mysterious figure is there in the Vigman film as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's there in the Darnel film.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody in the Warren Commission ever asked who he was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody on the House Light Committee on Assassinations ever asked.
[SPEAKER_00]: For 63 years that figure has been hiding in plain sight.
[SPEAKER_00]: The JFK Research community calls him prayer man.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is now a serious document-driven case that prayerman is Lee Harvey Oswald, which would mean Oswald was not on the 6th floor firing a rifle.
[SPEAKER_00]: My guest today is the researcher who has done more than anyone alive to build that case.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bart Camp spent over a decade on this, and it's an impressive book over my head here.
[SPEAKER_00]: He started his career as a photographer in the Netherlands and Milan, which turns out to be exactly the right background for reading degraded film frames.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bart Camp is not a fly-by-night JFK assassination author.
[SPEAKER_00]: This guy has serious bonus feed days, and he's been in the game for a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bart is a 2016 Mary Ferrell, a new frontier award recipient, and 2017 Dealey Plaza UK Excellence Award recipient.
[SPEAKER_00]: He works closely with Malcolm Blunt.
[SPEAKER_00]: who we talked about in our last episode and in the spy games episode and many of you may know Malcolm Blunt as the foremost archival researcher of the JFK record at the National Archives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bart Camp's book, Prayer Man, more than a fuzzy picture.
[SPEAKER_00]: was published in August of 2023 and Jim Dugeneo, my co-author on the JFK assassination chokeholds, called it a credible effort that goes literally to the heart of the basics of the JFK case, which is a big deal because Jim Dugeneo does not like a lot of what he reads.
[SPEAKER_00]: today we're going to do two things.
[SPEAKER_00]: First we're going to talk about who premier man is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then second we're going to talk about what may be the single most important undercover story in the whole case, which is the idea that the second floor lunchroom encounter between Oswald and Marion Baker may never have happened at all, certainly not in the
[SPEAKER_03]: In Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The man lay a formally job to the assassination question.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get the hat of the magazine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Man is the unlawful.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also a fact in a home.
[UNKNOWN]: I was here my perfect spurs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mission answers.
[UNKNOWN]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Matt.
[SPEAKER_01]: And...
[SPEAKER_01]: Good evening, or good morning, or good afternoon, wherever you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sir.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much for having me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what pulled you into the JFK assassination and their background is in photography?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they started actually when I was about 11 years old, maybe 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is in the second half of the 70s and there was a documentary about the HSCA happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something.
[SPEAKER_01]: around the HSCI.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was 11 years old, and there's a bit of, I remember we only had a black on white TV at that time, and they were zooming in into the bushes of the Nickfilm to see whether it was muscle flash or was it just leaves moving, and that there was a shooter over there, and
[SPEAKER_01]: that got my interest and I've most fascinated about that and then the following years you know you go to the hairdresser you get your haircut and there's a magazine's lying about and there's an article about Kennedy, his debt and the other and then you just fascinated by close-ups of the enlargement of the zepruder film as or forth and then the stone film really
[SPEAKER_01]: where I fell asleep during it, and then I watched it again when I went back to the Netherlands to watch it and rented it on the VHS, and I read two of the three books, the movie was based on Albert Crossfire, and I read the trail of the sand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the Jim Garrison book, yes, okay, so I read that, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was quite interested, and I read a few
[SPEAKER_01]: JFK assassination or Fletcher Proudi, both of them, they were, I was interested in it and I did that for about from 95 to 98 and then I had enough of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had enough of the conspiracy theories and so forth and all the anger, this that and the other and I became angry and I was like you know what was the point of getting angry all the time blah blah blah but that's only because you
[SPEAKER_01]: so I stepped away from it and I stepped away from it for about 12 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have had interactions with some of it but nothing like where I went.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I did that for X amount of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't until 2013, the 50th that I put something together with a technology, a multi touch app,
[SPEAKER_01]: described that with various facets of media in PDF movies like MP4 or photographs, what I could use them in the multitasking environment basically in one window.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of having three different apps running, I could just put them in one app and I could play with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I could present that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a nutshell, it was PowerPoint on steroids.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the way you have to look at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I started reading books a bit more and I knew about prayer men, but I was never really serious about it at that point in that year 2013 because I was busy on that whole thing with the multitouch application and once I've done that I was like, oh I need a break and then January 2014 I just started like thinking like, am I going to continue with this or am I going to quit and I was like, well there's only one thing worth continuing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, if that's pray, if prayer man's horse wall, and I looked at the photograph and this is a worst copy of what we have now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went, this guy really looks like horse walls.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going, if anything can solve this, it's this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's nothing else because if horse walls innocent, the entire case falls apart like a deck of cars.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just flat lines, all of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd like, well, there's nothing else.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I was aware of, say, the autopsy stuff and all that, but there is no death blow.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no magic bullet that basically says, that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, you can't do this or it's wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of like evidence, where's the thought?
[SPEAKER_01]: If that picture, if that gets clearer, then we might have a chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first thing I did then was try to obtain
[SPEAKER_01]: copies of the films as I possibly could and it wasn't just a weekman film or the Dynail film but it was also a prototype film.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just tried to find all the documentaries in high-risk format in 1080 but sometimes in 720 and that was what back in 2013.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to do a book in 2015 already, and I was like, oh, I got to do a book on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Stan Dane was there as well, as part of our crew.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, I'm doing a book and I was like, well, I, okay, oh, if you're doing a book, what's that going to be?
[SPEAKER_01]: But his book was focused on a thread that's called,
[SPEAKER_01]: on a forum called the Education Forum, which is about Oswald, which is the start of a Bill Kelly, actually, rest in peace, who was entitled Oswald leaving T.S.B.D.
[SPEAKER_01]: and that was just this picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that got Sean Murphy involved and a bunch of others.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't a member then, I couldn't become a member, it was closed at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't join until about a year or a year and a half after that in 2015 probably.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that thread was also of that pre-a-man on the map for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, all right, this is about this guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, and I looked at it and went, well, yeah, this guy looks like Oswald.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just looking at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a bad copy of the Darnel film.
[SPEAKER_00]: let's jump into a to prayer man because I think it is something that I'll say from my perspective, it's really misunderstood because you've got Billy Love Lady thing which is like, you know, yes, everyone knows that's Love Lady, that's not really disputed anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you also have another person next to them, the some people think is prayer man, then you have the person who really is prayer man is sort of in the back background.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Amanda Shinjato.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's in the shadow and sometimes his hands there's like his son of Transition where the sunlight is coming in and it's just like the rays are just He's not fully in caught by the sunlight by the rays but you have that zone in between where the darkness really did that the shadow really starts and you have like that that overflow of those rays basically
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my opinion at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to real image to support this, but it's drinking.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got a bottle in his hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why you have to highlight.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a camera because the bottle is moving to his face and back if we have close ups of the vegan film where we can see that he moves with his one arm that he basically, the bottle is moving to the face where
[SPEAKER_01]: the modicate is passing by with weekman filming it and then you've got the dinell film and the dinell film is anything is under ten seconds after after the weekman film and you know it's just it's always been a thing I mean prayer man is just something that is just
[SPEAKER_01]: a result of people seeing all these other people and you know black dog man and who's the other guy behind the behind the picket fence and all that was uh hedge man yeah yeah bad gosh yeah me by anyway um they're stats and man you can see in the picture behind me and this is because it's mirrored this white white suit of guy they call him stats and that
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so a lot of people have like, there's a lot of individuals that have certain names and pray a man was basically concocted by Sean Murphy, I'm not happy about the name, but it is what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just became interesting because and now I'm going to mix both of your things together because pray a man was investigated because the second floor lunchroom encounter was
[SPEAKER_01]: select few who said there's something really wrong about the second floor lunchroom encounter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you look at the statements that were made and the Warren Commission report, the hearings, the interviews, then you already look at it and go,
[SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't ring right at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you start looking at the DPD statements, then you start looking at the FBI statements, and you start putting everything in a chronological order, because that's the beauty of everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you get this documentation, you go, okay, on November 22nd, this has set.
[SPEAKER_01]: On the 23rd, they came up with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: On December 8th, all of the sudden this makes its entry into the evidence, and you go, hmm, this is a bit fishy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as I was reading your book, the main thing that I kept thinking is, I wish you would have written this when I covered this topic on the podcast because I just missed you by about a year and a half, but you know, I was telling you, in season four, we're going to go back and do and do just deep dives into sort of open things and things that I didn't cover before and
[SPEAKER_00]: this whole conversation about the second floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think needs needs to be really focused on by the community because I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no up in question there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just to underline the point here, if it isn't clear to everyone, it's that if it's Oswald, it prayer man is Oswald.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then clearly Oswald can't be on the sixth floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole other body of evidence about why Oswald down the sixth floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition to this, there's a whole
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I say all that to say that it's a pretty big deal, and so it's definitely worth covering, and it's not just from one photo.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's two films, that's what it is, and the downhill film, which you see in the
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the possibility to show that that's all sort by deep blurring what's happening in that top corner there and the top left corner of those stairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've already been dabbling with artificial intelligence using deep blurring techniques and so forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm only like in the beginning of doing all this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had an incredible hectic job.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do anything for two years besides collecting evidence until a few months ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I was made redundant and I was like, you know what, and I started using AI and then I what I did was I wanted to bullet prove my book and what I did was I just kept shocking everything in and it has also created something that I hadn't seen before yet even though all that research
[SPEAKER_01]: The agent, the AI agent came back to me and goes, but hold on a minute, this document says this, yet that document, and this is about the second floor lunchroom encounter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill Shelley, when in the afternoon at Half One, he escorted Danny Archie Garcia and Bonnie Ray Williams to the DPD in the patrol car.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's footage of him walking towards that car.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Shelley is there and he gives it
[SPEAKER_01]: and affidavit writes down very basic about what happened that's down for, but then Oswald is being paraded in and that's when he says, oh, he's one of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: He works for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, well, he killed the cop.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when the second affidavit comes handwritten and in that handwritten affidavit he writes that he spoke to truly and that truly had not seen Oswald.
[SPEAKER_01]: statement, affidavit, and says, I didn't, he said he didn't see us what, and he also cements this with the type of David affidavit.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, when Oslo's been interrogated, and he relayed certain information, he FBI agents booked a book out in
[SPEAKER_01]: it moves inside the TSPD and pinkstone does a, a for David with Roy truly, the superintendent of the text school book the poetry.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where the second floor lunchroom encounter is invented.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is in the same timeframe, roughly in the same timeframe.
[SPEAKER_01]: So either,
[SPEAKER_01]: Shelly is lying through his teeth and just makes this up which is hard to believe in a contemporary statement, your handwritten, cemented as well as a type.1, and then you have an FBI agent talking to the superintendent, and then all of a sudden that second floor lunchroom woman counter is created.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what that second lunchroom encounter is used to suppress and destroy Oswald's alibi of standing outside and watching the presidential parade and we know that because during that first interrogation there are notes made by James Patrick Oste, the FBI agent and it was also
[SPEAKER_01]: He writes in a pre-report on the back of Dallas, P.D.
[SPEAKER_01]: at the David paper.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's got this block of blank every day for the notes, may they have pre-typed and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he just fill in your name and date and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he turns it around and he writes down the awful evidence that he sees in the room next door of Fritz's office.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there are two things that are just absolutely missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first one is the Heidel ID.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no mention of a Heidel ID at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so this is going to be really difficult that if that card isn't there because I'll tell you what if Book out had seen the evidence there in front of him and there was a high del ID Book out would have written that down right there and then and would have walked back in and say y'all man What is this yeah or can you or go to Fritz and go hey have you seen this here's a second ID with a second name
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no mention of a high delibe until the 23rd in the first interrogation just before half eleven.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the first interrogation starts about ten thirty.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at the notes of this interrogation, there is no mention.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second item is in that, sorry, in that in that statement that host is writing,
[SPEAKER_01]: that he went to the lunch room to get a coke for his lunch, yeah, not after for his lunch, which is 12 o'clock, and then went outside and watched the P parade, the presidential parade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this document, although it came out in 1996, and Harold Weisberg had a copy of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: didn't see it and I only found out about it in 2019 when I found the document in the Malcolm Blunder archives and I saw it and I screamed it out at the top of my lungs that I found gold and even Malcolm went to the front of it and it was, well, what a lot of that got to do!
[SPEAKER_01]: This is amazing!
[SPEAKER_01]: This is handwritten notes and this is later on also repeated in
[SPEAKER_01]: the so-called joint book out and whole ski report.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that evening they make a report together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it states exactly what Oswald was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oswald said he was on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and everybody needs to know, if you go up the steps, yeah, that's the first floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where it starts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really funny thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no ground floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's only a basement.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the ground floor is outside the building.
[SPEAKER_01]: But inside the building, you just have the first floor and the basement.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no ground floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's I find it really interesting that the Warren Commission didn't even bring up that Oswald said he was on the first floor because because they could always say, but he's a liar because, you know, you would think they would want to at least say.
[SPEAKER_01]: book out makes another report about the whole thing and does it one A.E.
[SPEAKER_01]: on the whole thing and basically events and takes over the second floor lunchroom encounter.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see the information that came to Netflix and inside the schoolbook deposit had to come from book out in a whole city who were present in the first interrogation because Oswald made mention that
[SPEAKER_01]: Warren Costa had come past and he had two rifles with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one was a 22 and the other one was I think I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I'm also what made mention of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first question of the interview that Net Pinkson had before actually was asking him about those rifles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Warren Costa had an office inside the TSBD as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I just want to revisit one more thing you just said to about Hedell 10 30 AM on Saturday is the first time that shows up at he shows up now it's just before 11 30 I mean they go through the entire interrogation and at the end there's like a loose mention of ideal but there aren't they looking for the the records at the the gun manufacturer at Klein sporting goods like
[SPEAKER_01]: for the Malica Carcano was not found until the 23rd at 7.30.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and there's a bunch of FBI documents that have been recently released at the Mary Ferrell website, and they're beautiful, because there are at least 50, if not more documents, it's about just on the 800 documents,
[SPEAKER_01]: between 50 and 100 are only about the rifle, serial number, the branding inside, the the markings, it doesn't say manly Kakakana anywhere, and their search is all over trying to find out where this rifle is coming from.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a rifle, it's your thing, which it isn't to me, but for some people, the rifle is mega important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a presentation by itself, just to see how the FBI dealt with it all on the 22nd from the 22nd till the 26th.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to ask you to address the the prayer-man theory haters, which there's there's standard line is, yeah, if there were all these people on the steps and I was well, was there on the steps, then why does no one mentioned seeing us?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, do you have an answer for that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, some people have mentioned, if I look at Ken Bifel, if I look at PS Alman, Robert McNeill is close by, they all fell snippets, not direct, but indirectly, or snippets of Oswald Diener, Marcus Campbell, so I'm on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have these bits, but there are other other signals, in some of the documentation, especially with Pauline Sanders, and I think one or two more people, when they come into the landing or the vestibule, as is actually called, they make really specific mentioned of
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going, that doesn't make any sense because if I look at the Don Elf film, there's people going up the steps already right way in front of Baker and way in front of truly, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Truly and Baker, if you look at the picture behind me, the guy with the white stats and the stats and guy, there's a guy in a black suit where and a hat right behind me, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're talking.
[SPEAKER_01]: yeah that guy in the background yeah with the hat on that's why truly okay and we have people walking up their steps so to say that there's no one there it's complete rubbish it is something like making sure that it was oh no no one was there it was where's Engel why are you saying
[SPEAKER_01]: and that's really odd.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're trying to prove a point, but at the same time I go, if I look at this film, that doesn't make any sense, because I've got people going up there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, on the other, aren't there the records of other people who are on the stairs?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you have proof, you have the photographic images showing their standing next to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, it's a standing next to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fair enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Frazier said 10 years, 10, 13, 12, 14 years ago,
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't, he said he couldn't recognize it, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: Recently, he's been saying that it's not Lee Oswald.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Fraser is very unreliable as a witness.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go through all his statements, he's all over the place.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can't take it serious.
[SPEAKER_01]: On top of that, he did it in his book.
[SPEAKER_01]: The original author, who wrote the book, walked away from the project.
[SPEAKER_01]: He also made things up.
[SPEAKER_01]: can't take his word for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_01]: On top of that, you have to also understand the way with phrase you was treated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you got to a rough treatment when he on that day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And well, being black in those days, that's not a good thing either.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Joe Molina was his
[SPEAKER_01]: group of Hispanic soldiers who served in the Second World War who were in a better burial rights and so forth and just being more recognition for that, you know, a decent thing to ask for and to get and were seen as subversives and thought they were being seen as infiltrated by communists, you know, then you get to build lowry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You start looking into that and this guy was a
[SPEAKER_01]: an informant for the feds, and who reported about everything about the GI forum in there, and Molina got terrible treatment as well, and those women, while some of those women were pressured by the FBI, one of them worked for truly right underneath him, as well as his secretary, you know what, I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: there's so much in the actual evidence that dispute the official scenario from so many different angles.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, the haters are wasting your time because all they have are beliefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't, they don't, it doesn't go against the evidence because the thing is, if it had it been a picture, I'd say you'd got a point.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I've got the little frips notes,
[SPEAKER_01]: the hosting notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got the hosting report with book out and I've got Thomas Kelly from the Secret Service, from the 23rd also as a fair person saying that Oswald said he was outside in front.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's three people and two of our two different occasions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's also true that just looking at the placement of where prayer man is in that image and the film is in the very back of the steps.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you're very well, they've witnessed them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's quite possible that they didn't see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another factor because he brought me one of the last ones coming out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And but I'll tell you what, the ones that did see him are Fraser.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also say Roy, I had to
[SPEAKER_01]: But we've interviewed Roy Lewis four times, and he says he doesn't know, but he's well-trained in being evasive and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't blame these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you think about the history of all these witnesses, all that garbage that happens with
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, without going into specifics and all that, but just the pressure on these people, you know, these some of these people now, 80, 80 years old, they go, well, I live this long, why should I let blow this now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't blame them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, here's another thing, and this is why I don't believe the films are going to come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have the Lunar Committee answer for nothing's going to happen with these films, because if these films were to come out, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you just think the upheaval and the garbage that just creates and the lack of trusting?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there is a very, very little trust in society as it is now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you just see that you see that 63 years ago, they were doing it already blah, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Mark you down as skeptical that, oh, yeah, going to turn over the very high.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I don't believe it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you what, I hope somebody's going to prove me wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I found different things of evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't do anything until late January this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I first thought, I'm going to use AI because I want to iron cloud and just nail every coughing shot with more nails even then before and just absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: smash it and I did that and then I started going into the blurring and I've been working on that that's what you see that picture behind me and it works to a certain extent it still needs more work but um I'll get there at some point and on top of that um just uh more time I research and finding documents and going through documents so I found something that's almost as important as the interrogation notes I found and this is a document and you're the first one we get to know this
[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.
[SPEAKER_01]: The palm print.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the palm print is taken from Oswald on November 22nd around 9 o'clock in the evening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the evidence is handed over to the effects.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking about the rifle, Oswald shirts, pistol, etc., etc., etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now there's been a lot of who are over the decades
[SPEAKER_01]: whether the pamper it was occluded as in on the rifle itself on the knees of the barrel or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people, a lot of people that were involved, yes, and what's there we get this, we get that blah, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Vince Strange is one of Hoover's favorites.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was given a task of taking it all with him to Washington in a plane on the plane.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: He picks it up after Oswald's and Henry Wade's press conference because he's still photographed inside the group standing right next to Wade.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he picks up the rifle and the stuff and the shirt.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, until recently, I never saw a list of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went to the Maryfell site and by
[SPEAKER_01]: beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like Donald Wilson, beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it would just basically be an inventory list of the evidence, but also fingerprints.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it mentions fingerprints, but it doesn't mention no pamprint, nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you don't have a pamprint on that rifle on the 22nd, when that
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the foremost forensic expert of the FBI who can't find didly spot either.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And only finds the fingerprints that have been pointed out by Mr. Day, Mike, uh, all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you start looking at all the paperwork and that pampering doesn't appear until after the rifles coming back to Dallas again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that scene in all of a stones film where they have Gary Oldman-Line dead in the coffin and they just take his hand and there's that pampering on there?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's fake.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm telling you, that's exactly what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no evidence that that was a PowerPoint on the 22nd.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all of them, we don't have a high LED on the 22nd.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have a high Dell name with the order until 730 on the 23rd as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we don't have a PowerPoint.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the rifle that's going to Washington has got absolutely zero connectivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're really happy, as well, at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is charged with assassinating the president after his mug shots and his second set of fitting the Prince and Pomparence because the DPD had given all theirs the ones that they actually done at 9 o'clock in the evening.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were all gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So after 12 o'clock they had to make a new set.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there might have been a discrepancy of about a half an hour that there were no files of fingerprints and pom prints, but they had to redo all these sets.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had nothing, they had absolutely nothing on those walls.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I always remember thinking that was so crazy when I read about the the palm print arriving on an end X card like six days later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's also that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then the select a service card as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: The select a service card didn't appear because they get all the evidence and over.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the select a service card with the so called ideal Laida isn't there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it gets sent a few days later.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, just quickly, just to go back to Pyraman, so one thing we haven't talked about is your methodology, which I really, really respected it, it's kind of like when you came up with the plan, it was probably thinking, well, this is going to be a whole thing, but you know, the idea that you're going to have to go through all the witnesses, figure out exactly where each person was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's particularly a process of elimination and one important part of that important part is that there's no strangers there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that it's not a stranger and you can talk about that, but can you also rule out Sarah Stanton, who is sort of the alternative person?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sarah Stanton was very short.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's 505-1, and she weighed three on the pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah?
[SPEAKER_01]: They already disqualify her.
[SPEAKER_01]: It disqualifies her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on top of that, I found her in the weekman frame.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's seeking to be seen in the weekman firm, standing next to Pauline Sanders, as per statement.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill Frazier said also, I know this comes from Brian Doyle.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's one of the worst trolls in this whole business.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is somebody who's got zero evidence, but a million beliefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he can never back anything of it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Always because he sees something,
[SPEAKER_01]: My book has got twelve hundred sources.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very, very well sourced and you also are pointing out things that everyone can see when they go look at the source materials.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I wanted that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing with putting print and digital together, tighter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've vetted this idea with about two or three other authors, and they all went, oh that's a really good idea and I was like, I don't understand why nobody thought of this because I just want, because my original thing were papers before I did the books, before I did the book, I did four papers, and everything was interactively linked there, which is PDFs, and you could just click on the link and it would take you and I was like, well for the Kindle, I'll have that included, but for the print,
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to make sure and I thought, yeah, I'll make some chapters and put those pages on the website where all the links, all the documentation is linked to.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be for the second edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking at at least between 150 to 200 extra bits in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've got, I've got since November last year, I've gotten a ton of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: and things found and I just went, oh yeah that piece will fit in there and that will that nails that down and that's even more.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what the fact that they there's no ideal like there's no ideal order.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no palm print, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, forget about prayer mad.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just think about the evidence against awful, and that moment in time you don't have it, you're shouting that you've got it, but you don't have it at all, the evidence really states, that's just not me going, oh, I'm paraphrasing here, but no, the evidence says it isn't there.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sugar himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Hoover himself said that it's not very very strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what he said he'll be the next morning They had to help him and they did they had to help and they did a big time because the DPD couldn't close it
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to just revisit two witnesses because these were new to me and they're really, really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ocas Campbell and Kent Biffel, if we could just talk about them, because basically they're definitively putting Oswald on the first floor right after it happened, so that's what they said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carol and Arnold said that on the 26th November and FBI statement and Roy truly at first said also something along those words that he basically saw him on the first floor and if you look at everything regarding departure from the T.S.B.D.
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people said, oh, he just escaped.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now there's a thing that we refer to and called the Revolt List which is referring to Jack Revolt.
[SPEAKER_01]: of the criminal intelligence division, the CID, this is WP Gannaway, Pat Gannaway, and these guys were looking for a subversive sense of force.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's a list of these of the people that were in the TSBD and left the building.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's no time, but there's
[SPEAKER_01]: And you see handwriting on it as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Oswald is on the top of that list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oswald is the first person that left the TSPD.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to see the TSPD, like when did that get like the front door get locked about 8, 10, maybe 12 minutes after the shooting?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Oswald has been standing around there and he wanted to get out.
[SPEAKER_01]: the grassy patch right in front of the gnawl and get into that naturalambler by thought you're crazy and one or two more let's saw somebody who looked like Oswald getting that calm.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know when you start gathering all the evidence and you go, I can't be, it can't be, it can't be, it can't be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you go, oh there's more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh hold on a minute, there's even more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And every time I think I've got it, I'm done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said it five years ago, I'm done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not even looking at the people that did interviews with these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just looking at documentation and the FBI especially, you know, Yeah, I'm a stuff there is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, oh, uh, Ocas Campbell specifically, yeah, uh, manager, and he was a VP right at the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he, he, he, he, he, he said that he raced back into the building after the shots and he saw us world in a small storage room on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that, yeah, to the, to the, to the New York, Harold Tribune.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: On 26.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: On on the 23.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a huge piece of evidence that I can't believe, I just, that's very obscure and it's so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what, that's like all these newspapers there.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of it comes without sources, they catch these things and they just write it down and, you know, what some people say is not a by-line.
[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing, if I have truly, I have Campbell, I have Ken Biffle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got Robert McNeil and I've got PS Alman and you start looking at all these stores what they did, which phone they went to, then you get the military intelligence guy, just forget this name, who also walks in and tells, hey, get off the phone, I need to phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So slowly, you know, that's the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just start me to collect more and more and more and more and more.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll tell you what, I've also been given about 20 out of hours of KRLD film footage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, imagine CCTV cameras, although back in the day there were that big and this
[SPEAKER_01]: and they had two of them in a corridor, and they were just practically next to each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: In that thin slim corridor, I would have been six feet if that, and they are filming everything that's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, next from the door that leads to the elevator, if also let's
[SPEAKER_01]: and he goes to room 317.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like Valhalla where it comes to all the traffic of the reporters, the photographers, the cameraman, the secretaries, we're talking secret service agents, FBI, and so I've already found hosting in some footage and there's some going to use in conjunction with my timeline that I already have put together in my book, especially with the
[SPEAKER_01]: with the interrogations and that basically will enable me to see who did what and who was where and trying to just stitch that all together.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you've done some really strong work in just shedding a light on how much evidence is there to unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say for me, when I first started to to look at this this theory, I guess that still is, we'll call it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I wasn't a fan of it, sorry, too, Buck.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't a fan of it at first.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I started pre-judged it, I guess, because I'm thinking, I personally, I'm not good at looking at grainy images and kind of seeing what's there with the Worshack test.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: The story is all of the other evidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, the grainy image looks like Oswald.
[SPEAKER_01]: The grainy image is the icing on the cake.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's as simple as that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The evidence speaks for itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: you see there's no opinions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to say anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to add anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: The evidence speaks for itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what's going to happen with the second division.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just going to be getting even harder.
[SPEAKER_01]: people just going to get slapped left right in the center with evidence.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they're sick of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, Jeff.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know that I'm, you know, I'm not afraid to donate my book in an in a violent way of the JFK assassination chokehold.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think if you, you could have JFK assassination, whatever, you know, what, what did you say, hammering in those, how you described it earlier?
[SPEAKER_00]: That was good.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how I'm right in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing I wanted to throw out real quick that I wasn't talking to you about today, but I wanted to, I didn't have time to dive into research it, so I didn't want to, and I've already covered it previously, which is the Rally call, and I want to, I want to give you a shout-out for thinking a contrarian in, in, in, conspiracy group, a position in the happen, um, and, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I want to look at it, I want to look at it before I dive deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll tell you what, just go to my website and click on diary and then click in the search box on the top right and just type in Raleigh and that will be only one post that concerns the Raleigh call and I suggest you read that and I suggest you check out all the evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because the whole thing is plosive full with evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: and the thing is what makes the rally call doubt is that there's no coherent unity between the ladies of who was there, who did what, who said what, and so forth, they all contradict each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: On top of that, the note itself is a fugacy, it's been
[SPEAKER_01]: written over many, many times, it's not just it looks like a piece of original writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why the hell do they have to write three or four times over the same thing, over the same signature?
[SPEAKER_01]: And on top of that, they speak about La Velle listening in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the biggest problem with all these bits about those, canceling the phone calls,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's contrary to the phone calls that Oswald had.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, there are reports of Oswald that Oswald had a phone call.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had another phone call and he had a phone call for 45 minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what that's about, but his phone calls were recorded.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's all the woo-hoo-hoo?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to a guy who's a total drunk, yeah, who's a complete drunk,
[SPEAKER_01]: and people conspiracy theorists start putting things together as in, yeah, but he was in Japan, and he was working for the Central for intelligence in what five years before Oswald was there, and I'm going, so what's the connection here?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they can't, other than that, they can't give me
[SPEAKER_01]: But people believe this and people have been pushing this through like it's something that's happened and it hasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same as the roll call inside the Texas School Book Depository.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's another full-gayasy.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the point of having a roll call when at least half of all the people that were inside that building weren't there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to say like, no, we just did the workers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why the workers?
[SPEAKER_01]: What a guy in a suit can't get a rifle and start shooting in the president?
[SPEAKER_01]: What kind of stupid argumentation is this?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we'll just get the laborers and we'll leave the women as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll forget about women's snipers.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not happening in Dallas either.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: But doesn't make much sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, he has the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every time you look at something and they say, well, it's such
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, let's just use a firm dose of common sense on this, just for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: Truly, and the second floor lunchroom encounter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Truly ran ahead of Baker, think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Marion Baker, gun drawn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Truly, officer come.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll guide you up those stairs, walking ahead, when a gunman, possible gunman.
[SPEAKER_01]: would be coming down the stairs at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me, were you born yesterday, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you just think about that and go, that was my thing for me to investigate the second for a lunchroom in college.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then later on, I found statements where he said he more about Baker walked in front of him instead of him walking in front of Baker.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're contradicting each other all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I look forward to reading your your rally article and depth and I'd love to have you on again to talk through that because I'm sure there are just, you know, a lot of questions of like, well, if you're saying this, then what about this, then what about this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we can't let the evidence do talking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my opinion.
[SPEAKER_01]: My opinion doesn't count.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's pretty clear, you know, it's just like this thing with the, with the pampering, it's pretty clear now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was already leaning towards that from 90% but now with this one document, I just go and this is the document that was made after the stuff was transferred and I'm looking at it and I'm gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no mention of pampering whatsoever and the thing is like that one to one between Cal day and drain, it only discusses the
[SPEAKER_01]: and the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, that's end the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, man, I've learned a lot by reading your book and talking to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely want to have you on again sometime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, anytime.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just let me know.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll do it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: No problems.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why can't you're the man?