WEBVTT 00:02.714 --> 00:03.315 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, everyone. 00:03.515 --> 00:05.517 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Christian Parenting podcast. 00:06.098 --> 00:14.849 [SPEAKER_00]: Today's episode is such an honest and encouraging conversation about marriage and grace and what it really looks like to build a life together over decades. 00:15.370 --> 00:21.958 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm joined by Stephen Curtis Chapman in Mary Beth Chapman and together we talk about the beauty and challenges of 40 years of marriage. 00:22.538 --> 00:24.621 [SPEAKER_00]: That's raising kids through every season. 00:24.955 --> 00:32.164 [SPEAKER_00]: walking through grave learning to repent well and why counseling and community have been such an important part of their story and my story too. 00:32.966 --> 00:35.269 [SPEAKER_00]: Their books still here talks about all of this and more. 00:35.289 --> 00:36.430 [SPEAKER_00]: So you should definitely check that out. 00:36.470 --> 00:38.413 [SPEAKER_00]: I will have it listed in show notes for you. 00:38.833 --> 00:41.437 [SPEAKER_00]: But what I love most about this conversation is how real it is. 00:41.897 --> 00:43.639 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't pretend that marriage has been easy. 00:43.680 --> 00:47.985 [SPEAKER_00]: They openly talk about disappointment and differences and exhaustion. 00:48.025 --> 00:52.431 [SPEAKER_00]: And the way this God has continually met them through every single season. 00:52.411 --> 01:01.223 [SPEAKER_00]: So whether you are newly married, deep in the trenches of parenting or simply feeling a little disconnected from your spouse right now, I think that this conversation will encourage you just like it did me. 01:08.358 --> 01:09.480 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Steven, I'm Mary Beth. 01:09.640 --> 01:10.721 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad you're here today. 01:10.781 --> 01:12.744 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having us, Steph. 01:12.764 --> 01:13.745 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're having this. 01:13.765 --> 01:16.029 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you for, know you're very busy right now. 01:16.049 --> 01:17.290 [SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate the time. 01:17.370 --> 01:29.487 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to talk all about marriage and everything that a long marriage entails, which is a lot, but before we dive in, I want to start kind of giving it, give us an update of where your marriage and family are right now. 01:29.527 --> 01:31.750 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are you up to in this season of life? 01:31.730 --> 01:36.215 [SPEAKER_02]: This season, the season where we are at this very moment where we're sitting. 01:36.316 --> 01:37.677 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good place to start. 01:37.697 --> 01:39.720 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so you know, it's a lot. 01:39.780 --> 01:43.004 [SPEAKER_01]: We have the, you know, the six kiddos. 01:43.304 --> 01:46.388 [SPEAKER_01]: And so everybody, I'll start with the youngest, D.B. 01:46.428 --> 01:49.391 [SPEAKER_01]: Joy, literally last Saturday, we were in Tuscillusus. 01:49.451 --> 01:53.617 [SPEAKER_01]: She just graduated with her master's degree from University of Alabama. 01:53.857 --> 01:54.057 [SPEAKER_01]: Real-time. 01:54.077 --> 01:54.458 [SPEAKER_01]: Real-time. 01:54.838 --> 01:58.142 [SPEAKER_01]: And finishing up an amazing cheer career there. 01:58.122 --> 02:08.359 [SPEAKER_01]: bringing home a national title for her school as well as finishing with Team USA and winning four gold medals for the world with the international team. 02:08.720 --> 02:13.648 [SPEAKER_01]: And then next up, Shoei, she's home in the national area. 02:13.688 --> 02:17.835 [SPEAKER_01]: She's working at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital as 02:17.815 --> 02:21.763 [SPEAKER_01]: child life specialist and is enjoying her time in pediatrics there. 02:22.384 --> 02:30.801 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the boys are out in about just constantly singing, creating, writing, their band colony house is all over the country. 02:30.881 --> 02:34.288 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of your good friends, Beth Franchals, favorite bands. 02:34.977 --> 02:54.420 [SPEAKER_01]: and and so they're touring and riding and doing all that and so the youngest will friend Clint is married to Julie and Edward's another singer songwriter and they have Fay and Jack eight and two years old now Caleb the other member of the colony house our oldest son has no bull he's 11 now and Ollie is eight 02:54.400 --> 02:57.063 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he's married to Julia, his lifelong sweetheart. 02:57.183 --> 03:00.847 [SPEAKER_01]: And then our oldest Emily Richards is married to Tanner. 03:01.127 --> 03:02.689 [SPEAKER_01]: They have three lovely little ladies. 03:02.989 --> 03:05.352 [SPEAKER_01]: Ily is what she's 14 now. 03:05.392 --> 03:06.873 [SPEAKER_01]: Della is 12. 03:07.594 --> 03:08.936 [SPEAKER_01]: And um, there he's 11. 03:08.976 --> 03:12.299 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they're all doing their various, seven grand. 03:12.319 --> 03:20.408 [SPEAKER_01]: So seven grand babies that are keeping us, you know, trying to, now that we've kind of graduated all the children are finally out of school and done, we 03:20.388 --> 03:30.290 [SPEAKER_01]: are busy going to all the grandkids things and then before you start a recording, we told you we're sitting here now with all four of our parents are still living. 03:30.391 --> 03:36.244 [SPEAKER_01]: So we are incredibly blessed and we are entering a season when it's incredibly a lot. 03:36.605 --> 03:37.587 [SPEAKER_01]: And 03:37.567 --> 03:44.242 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's so grateful to be able to be here in Springfield, Ohio with my sweet mom and dad who my dad's not doing too well. 03:44.302 --> 03:45.885 [SPEAKER_01]: And so thank you for being so gracious. 03:45.965 --> 03:47.569 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's kind of the quick update. 03:47.609 --> 03:50.676 [SPEAKER_01]: I usually do the update because otherwise he would take your whole 30 minutes. 03:51.357 --> 03:52.740 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, it's not going to be the kids. 03:52.720 --> 03:53.501 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be updating. 03:53.621 --> 03:54.984 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but it is. 03:55.144 --> 03:55.765 [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting. 03:55.785 --> 04:00.072 [SPEAKER_02]: You were, you know, talking about marriage and of all the crazy things. 04:00.112 --> 04:16.197 [SPEAKER_02]: We had to cancel a few of our interviews for today, just because we had to make an emergency trip from Tennessee where we live Nashville, up here at Ohio to see a check-in on her dad and just see where he is in this home stretch of his season this side of heaven. 04:16.177 --> 04:20.982 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's just every season is there's always a new season we're still learning. 04:21.163 --> 04:34.137 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we talk about, you know, that we didn't, you know, we get married and, you know, we marry someone who life is just going to change because the seasons are going to change because we didn't marry people with elderly parents when we met each other. 04:34.177 --> 04:42.486 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and parents that were, you know, where you're going to spend half the night, you know, praying and crying and trying to figure out, are we doing the right thing? 04:42.506 --> 04:43.888 [SPEAKER_02]: Should we do this or doing that? 04:43.868 --> 04:46.784 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it is, it is a great adventure. 04:47.066 --> 04:50.706 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a journey that we're glad we can spend a few minutes talking to you about it. 04:50.737 --> 04:51.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 04:51.278 --> 05:20.153 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I love that you guys are so honest about marriage and what it looks like and how there are so many different seasons and how you grow and change so much because God made us all so different and e-marry someone and, you know, 40 years later, you're a little bit different because it's changed to just a tiny bit but I love how there's one point when you guys are writing your book together you're talking about how when you're dating like some of those differences aren't very noticeable or like it's fine and then after years of marriage you're like a 05:20.133 --> 05:22.478 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it is fine. 05:22.618 --> 05:28.209 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do talk a lot about that because I think that it's almost like the Lord knew what he was doing. 05:28.389 --> 05:40.352 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when you're dating the person you're going to marry, all those things that you're attracted to are things that you really don't see in yourself, at least it was for us, you know, I'm like, man, he's just so 05:40.332 --> 05:49.802 [SPEAKER_01]: fun loving and just, um, you know, just creative and, you know, whimsical and, you know, at a spur of the moment and, you know, I come from a family. 05:49.842 --> 05:53.026 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very intentional and it's not that you're not intentional. 05:53.046 --> 05:59.713 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, land and not whimsical at all and, you know, just kind of real dogmatic. 05:59.773 --> 06:06.120 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you're still structured and all the things that, you know, I just thought 06:06.100 --> 06:12.752 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you get married and it's like, wait, um, I mean, that was the old one of the bait and swiss. 06:12.772 --> 06:25.476 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, it's like, it's like, when you start living with that for a while, but then the sweetness to the Lord is I do think the longer you live with that person, the more you really kind of become like them, you know, you kind of, 06:25.709 --> 06:50.535 [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of liken it to this triangle that the, you know, we've really tried the closer that we've really kept our eyes on the Lord and kind of trying to grow towards the Lord we kind of grow towards each other and then you know all of a sudden some of those things I've adapted and he's adapted to my things and you know you do kind of become a little more like each other maybe and and it's all awesome and infuriating and you know good bad all of it mixed together. 06:50.515 --> 06:50.896 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 06:51.418 --> 06:51.738 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 06:51.759 --> 06:54.226 [SPEAKER_00]: How have you done that practically over the years? 06:54.567 --> 06:57.916 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you kind of mean you mentioned keeping that triangle and keeping your eyes like that. 06:57.936 --> 07:00.323 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, what does it look like for you guys, too? 07:00.607 --> 07:01.828 [SPEAKER_00]: navigate your differences. 07:02.129 --> 07:05.913 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that's probably a 20 steps forward and then 50 steps back. 07:05.933 --> 07:07.895 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like you can't do that perfectly. 07:07.955 --> 07:11.459 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we'd love to be able to sit here and say, we can write that book. 07:11.479 --> 07:14.582 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's exactly what you do and how you do and it's going to go really well for you. 07:14.662 --> 07:21.670 [SPEAKER_01]: But we can, we can, you know, write the book on what it looks like to make a ton of mistakes and a ton of, ton of blenders. 07:21.890 --> 07:28.217 [SPEAKER_01]: And really, I think our marriage has been maybe one of those situations where we've had to keep the short records of 07:28.197 --> 07:35.767 [SPEAKER_01]: The short records are wrong bearing with each other and love making a choice, repenting, and repent of our children. 07:35.827 --> 07:47.603 [SPEAKER_02]: There's been huge for us, and I mean, that really is, but so much of it, you find these scriptures that sort of jump off the page and go, you know, in repentance and rest is your salvation. 07:47.763 --> 07:49.345 [SPEAKER_02]: That's one of those things. 07:49.325 --> 07:56.400 [SPEAKER_02]: I've loved and how long to because it's not in doing it right and getting it finally perfect, you know, is your salvation. 07:56.460 --> 07:59.907 [SPEAKER_02]: It's repenting and resting, repent and resting. 08:00.268 --> 08:01.751 [SPEAKER_02]: Every morning as mercies are new. 08:01.852 --> 08:04.397 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to need them new thankfully. 08:04.377 --> 08:16.328 [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to be new and we can repent and rest in the work that he is already done in us and is doing in us but that is keeps us humble and then we go back to God resist the proud but he gives grace to the humble. 08:16.609 --> 08:34.165 [SPEAKER_02]: So if we want his grace not only in our lives personally but in our marriage it's going to be humility and it's going to keep driving us back to repentance and realize in that we are sinners married to sinners and people have helped us I mean to answer the 08:34.145 --> 08:39.113 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, specific way or tangible way, you know, we've had been very blessed. 08:39.193 --> 08:54.336 [SPEAKER_02]: We've sought them out, friends, counselors, pastors, teachers, you know, that we have journeyed with and we have wept with and wrestled with and you know, how do we do this and those who have modeled repentance for us. 08:54.396 --> 08:56.980 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, our pastor and dear friend probably one of our 08:56.960 --> 09:02.446 [SPEAKER_02]: with Sarah Mentor and kind of spiritual papa in many ways to us Scotty Smith. 09:02.726 --> 09:15.440 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he's a very honest in his own journey with his wife laying and helping us understand, you know, repentance, and really, you know, again, leaning into, and our weakness is strength is made perfect. 09:15.500 --> 09:19.084 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a lot of the songs I've written have come out of our journey together. 09:19.524 --> 09:21.246 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, all of them have truly, but 09:21.226 --> 09:35.352 [SPEAKER_02]: because they all started getting written after we started our journey together, so they're all woven together with the threads of our struggles, you know, failures, victories, and then just, you know, the grace of God kind of woven all through it. 09:35.913 --> 09:38.537 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's not a sunny school answer, a pat answer. 09:38.738 --> 09:39.659 [SPEAKER_02]: That's just the truth. 09:39.800 --> 09:41.162 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a reality for us. 09:41.222 --> 09:43.386 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just having to repent, having to realize. 09:43.366 --> 09:51.148 [SPEAKER_02]: And we do say it throughout the book, if there is a secret for us, it is bear with one another in love. 09:51.469 --> 09:52.512 [SPEAKER_02]: Love bears all things. 09:52.692 --> 09:58.388 [SPEAKER_02]: That bearing with means that you're going to carry the weight of disappointment and sadness. 09:58.368 --> 10:14.873 [SPEAKER_02]: supposed to be and you're not acting what you're supposed to and I'm not acting what I'm supposed to and let's just what do we do well we either you know chuck it or just because this is too much or can we really trust God's grace to enter into that and actually take us even deeper into holiness which is quoting one of our favorites. 10:15.354 --> 10:21.523 [SPEAKER_02]: Tim Keller mirrors his you know God's ideas a lot more about making us holy than making us happy. 10:21.757 --> 10:25.601 [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily enter into it that way, so can we learn, can we be teachable? 10:25.901 --> 10:28.704 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably not a real popular thought in 2026. 10:29.104 --> 10:45.740 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, there's a lot of thought around being your best self, you know, you have to be your best you before you can be, you know, a best we or whatever, whatever it is, not that those things are not important, good, taking care of yourself, all the things, all the work that, you know, God calls us to do with ourselves. 10:45.760 --> 10:47.342 [SPEAKER_01]: However, I think for us, 10:47.322 --> 10:49.606 [SPEAKER_01]: it has just kind of boiled down to eat. 10:49.626 --> 10:57.678 [SPEAKER_01]: We've made a decision, you know, come heck, or I water, we're in it and, you know, we're just gonna keep short records of wrong and choose each other. 10:57.718 --> 11:07.894 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think our children too, as our marriage has, have gone on, you know, our children are now 40 years old, shouldn't we be 40, 40 years old, too? 11:08.135 --> 11:08.555 [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. 11:08.575 --> 11:10.258 [SPEAKER_01]: 23. 11:10.238 --> 11:34.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we mentioned our seven grandchildren and I think our children would say, I think we talked about this two in the book that, you know, Caleb was asked to write an essay about us and, you know, he just kind of summarized his whole essay about us as, you know, I have amazing parents, thank you very much, Caleb, but he said they, they, um, they're not perfect, but they hobble well and I'm like, okay, I can take that. 11:34.664 --> 11:40.110 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to hobble well. 11:40.090 --> 11:42.676 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's like the best compliment though. 11:42.897 --> 11:44.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because we do it. 11:44.160 --> 11:48.971 [SPEAKER_00]: We do enter marriage and we especially for get married young thinking that it's going to be perfect. 11:48.991 --> 11:53.461 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be so great because we're so in love and Conquer's all that's right. 11:53.521 --> 11:56.749 [SPEAKER_00]: We're all going to go just so well, we didn't know what we didn't know. 11:56.729 --> 12:25.487 [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know we didn't know life just starts to look different, but I do appreciate that you guys referenced talking with mentors and seeking professional counseling too, because I think there are a lot of especially Christian couples who are a little wary of that, and then be feel like shame asking for help, whether it's like a huge life circumstance or just the small problems like we are very different, and this is really hard, so how has counseling strengthened your marriage and what would you say to people who are feeling a little hesitant about it? 12:25.467 --> 12:25.868 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 12:25.928 --> 12:31.945 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the Chapman's have probably built wings onto all of the counseling centers in the National Metroplex area. 12:32.266 --> 12:34.914 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're within air, reach to this, you guys know who you are. 12:35.114 --> 12:40.810 [SPEAKER_01]: And whether that's been, you know, dealing with the grief of losing our child early on marriage counseling. 12:40.790 --> 12:48.242 [SPEAKER_01]: individual counseling, you know, I don't make any, I don't hide the fact that I've struggled with some clinical depression in my journey. 12:48.602 --> 12:53.570 [SPEAKER_01]: So all of that has been a recipe from much, much counseling, parenting, all the things. 12:53.610 --> 12:54.852 [SPEAKER_01]: We needed all the things. 12:55.312 --> 13:01.602 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the first thing I would say is, you know, you wouldn't, you're not going to not go to a heart doctor if you need heart surgery, right? 13:01.662 --> 13:07.371 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to go and you're going to try to, you know, counsel with the best physician to 13:07.351 --> 13:07.732 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 13:07.752 --> 13:15.855 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how we've become some have become so resistant to getting that kind of help, but man, it's been crucial for us. 13:16.296 --> 13:17.600 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the end all do all. 13:17.820 --> 13:22.373 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think I say that with a caveat, you know, I think it can be one of those. 13:22.353 --> 13:32.667 [SPEAKER_01]: places in your journey where it's like, well, dang, I feel like I've flunked my rage I want to one because this guy is saying, you know, need these five lovelins, which are you know, and I'm not bashing anybody here. 13:32.687 --> 13:40.898 [SPEAKER_01]: You say, these are really, really good tools and they have really connected and helped some people have to find it kind of, yeah, it's like it doesn't fit everyone. 13:41.238 --> 13:45.424 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet they are extremely helpful, but it isn't the end all do all. 13:45.404 --> 13:53.133 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's kind of a both and I think you really need to be, you know, careful and you select the council with obviously Christian counselors. 13:53.173 --> 13:55.456 [SPEAKER_01]: I would definitely do my research on all of that. 13:55.516 --> 14:00.121 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and then it's at the end of it all, even after counseling. 14:00.181 --> 14:09.792 [SPEAKER_01]: Because let me tell you, some of our best or worst fights, however you want to, you know, look at that, we've walked out of the council and we've gotten in the car and I'm like, 14:09.772 --> 14:13.240 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, you know, I don't like what they're saying. 14:13.280 --> 14:15.846 [SPEAKER_01]: We got to go separate ways and it's like, we're not going to be bad. 14:15.866 --> 14:16.467 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to be bad. 14:16.808 --> 14:17.149 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 14:17.169 --> 14:21.078 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it really does come down to then this decision to go, hey, we're going to. 14:21.098 --> 14:25.047 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, are you going to keep pressing in and we're going to keep, you know, 14:25.735 --> 14:27.238 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, love in each other. 14:27.438 --> 14:33.450 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's that choice and going, you know, I guess at the end of it, you and I are just so stubborn. 14:33.490 --> 14:35.413 [SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to see it through how it is. 14:35.614 --> 14:36.776 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just know what I do. 14:36.816 --> 14:40.763 [SPEAKER_01]: These are my best friend and I love them to death, but it has come a lot of work. 14:40.783 --> 14:43.288 [SPEAKER_01]: You're right, but I would say that. 14:43.268 --> 14:59.826 [SPEAKER_01]: you know counseling is super important and there's a whole lot of else that you have to kind of look inward and go man I think at the end of the day I'm probably a pretty selfish person this just in where we're born selfish we were born sinners and you know that just rears up every day 14:59.806 --> 15:23.974 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that one of our challenges with that and we talk about this again and the book is one of the reasons I think we felt it was maybe worthwhile for us to write a book because we had resisted it for so long because we didn't feel like we were the people who had the answers or the experts you know and we would go to the experts and we would go to the marriage conference and we would go to the you know read we'll try to read the books and many times we get to like 15:23.954 --> 15:28.720 [SPEAKER_02]: before chapter one was out where like we have just felt we've flunked and we're not going to ever get this. 15:28.780 --> 15:30.302 [SPEAKER_02]: We've already messed everything up. 15:30.322 --> 15:31.664 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, is there any hope for us? 15:32.024 --> 15:44.781 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's where we would struggle and shame, because in me, there is one, you know, greatest tool of the accuser, you know, the enemy, which we talk extensively about the enemy in this book, because 15:44.761 --> 15:48.286 [SPEAKER_02]: one of his greatest tools is to make us number one think it's each other. 15:48.306 --> 15:54.755 [SPEAKER_02]: Number two, to think that you've already, you're so far gone, and it's changing. 15:54.775 --> 15:55.356 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, Jesus. 15:55.376 --> 15:57.619 [SPEAKER_02]: Shame and says, yeah, you can't do it like these people. 15:57.659 --> 15:59.021 [SPEAKER_02]: Or look, you've already missed this upper. 15:59.061 --> 16:05.349 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll never, she'll never act like that person that you read in the book, and she's never going to respond or he's never going to respond that way. 16:05.870 --> 16:08.514 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the enemy, you know, uses all of those things against us. 16:08.574 --> 16:12.439 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think even for us for many years, we would go think 16:12.537 --> 16:21.456 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, if we can just read the right book, get the right counselor, get on the right program, just just whatever it is, tell me it's all me and give me the workbook. 16:21.536 --> 16:28.370 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll do the work, you know, and I think it was years and years of realizing there is one who is the wonderful counselor. 16:28.751 --> 16:31.356 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is not just a name given, 16:31.336 --> 16:33.461 [SPEAKER_02]: in scripture that we're seeing at Christmas time. 16:33.822 --> 16:41.840 [SPEAKER_02]: But it really is true that he will speak through and use men and women for sure, but they are not fourth member of their Trinity either. 16:41.960 --> 16:50.880 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, and I am, and this is one of my own issues is like I am so desperate to find that person that program, the fix. 16:50.860 --> 17:12.852 [SPEAKER_02]: and it's that's where we get back to bearing with one another in love and you know and keeping a short record of wrongs and laying your life down for each other and making that decision over and over again because you know we're not going to get it fixed this side of heaven and so having that realistic expectation going in the state but 17:12.832 --> 17:18.238 [SPEAKER_02]: Some tools, we need to be able to sit in the same room and even have a conversation because right now we can't do that. 17:18.598 --> 17:30.771 [SPEAKER_02]: But then beyond that, not looking to that person or any person to be that fixed, but knowing that it's only the, you know, there's only one Holy Spirit and he is real and active. 17:31.091 --> 17:33.193 [SPEAKER_02]: We always see it and feel at the way we want to. 17:33.373 --> 17:40.881 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, so anyway, that's I think been an important part of us writing this book at this point because I think a lot of us carry that shame, maybe with us. 17:40.861 --> 17:50.398 [SPEAKER_01]: And we just can't do it right, you know, we're just, yeah, which is ultimately the fact that we can't do it right is maybe the best things right we can't yeah 17:52.252 --> 17:59.263 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't do it right, so we just really have to rely on the truth, the words of the only one that can give the ultimate counsel. 17:59.463 --> 18:02.448 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my husband and I really are going to rewrit. 18:02.628 --> 18:05.112 [SPEAKER_00]: We go to a counselor, turn his Melanie, shout out to Melanie. 18:05.292 --> 18:07.336 [SPEAKER_00]: She's on maternity leave right now. 18:07.496 --> 18:11.442 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we just continually joke, we're like, she needs to come back. 18:11.422 --> 18:12.123 [SPEAKER_00]: go back. 18:12.343 --> 18:15.948 [SPEAKER_00]: We got like two more weeks and she's coming back and we'll go in. 18:16.008 --> 18:20.194 [SPEAKER_00]: But she does like such a good job at reminding us that our marriage is unique. 18:20.555 --> 18:24.521 [SPEAKER_00]: And like we have, you know, she's challenged us, like list each of your top priorities. 18:24.541 --> 18:25.502 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are your priorities? 18:25.542 --> 18:26.143 [SPEAKER_00]: What are the same? 18:26.203 --> 18:26.844 [SPEAKER_00]: What's different? 18:26.944 --> 18:28.526 [SPEAKER_00]: And like focus on those things. 18:28.606 --> 18:31.350 [SPEAKER_00]: And for us, it's been, you know, like really focusing it on the Lord. 18:31.631 --> 18:31.911 [SPEAKER_00]: And 18:31.891 --> 18:37.759 [SPEAKER_00]: spending time together and prayer and scripture and it's just that constant reminder of having someone else be like, Hi, that's your priority. 18:37.779 --> 18:38.900 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, are you doing that? 18:39.181 --> 18:40.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Life gets busy and something is different. 18:40.583 --> 18:45.189 [SPEAKER_01]: And just because we know we need each other and we need accountability and we need friends and our lives. 18:45.209 --> 18:48.634 [SPEAKER_01]: We need those counselors and yet, you know, she hit the nail on the head. 18:48.994 --> 18:57.606 [SPEAKER_01]: Your marriage is in our marriage, your marriage isn't their marriage and is unique as we are, you know, as the fingerprints of thought are all over me and him is how unique our marriage is. 18:57.626 --> 18:58.607 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, 18:58.587 --> 19:03.875 [SPEAKER_01]: it's again going back to the truth of the scripture, you know, it's all things we learned, right? 19:04.055 --> 19:05.837 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, the scripture is alive. 19:05.898 --> 19:12.006 [SPEAKER_01]: That scripture is just as applicable today as it was when I was written and it's like, we can choose to bear with one another. 19:12.066 --> 19:15.992 [SPEAKER_01]: We can choose to keep, you know, a short record of wrongs. 19:16.032 --> 19:18.556 [SPEAKER_01]: We can, you know, it's not, it's not fun. 19:18.596 --> 19:27.008 [SPEAKER_01]: It's what he didn't say and this is going to go so well, you're going to enjoy, you know, and it's just like, you know, 19:27.376 --> 19:31.644 [SPEAKER_01]: I will say the more we've attempted to practice it in hobble. 19:32.144 --> 19:36.552 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, through it, it is, you know, it's worth it. 19:36.712 --> 19:37.113 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth it. 19:37.253 --> 19:37.955 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth it. 19:37.975 --> 19:38.315 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth it. 19:38.375 --> 19:38.916 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth it. 19:38.936 --> 19:39.297 [SPEAKER_02]: It's worth it. 19:39.317 --> 19:42.503 [SPEAKER_02]: We end the book with that because that's what we felt important to say. 19:42.563 --> 19:47.091 [SPEAKER_01]: We could have not been standing at the crib of our, you know, very first grand baby. 19:47.111 --> 19:50.076 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember grabbing his hand going, man, we could have forfeited this. 19:50.056 --> 19:59.686 [SPEAKER_01]: like we're staying in Ireland in a closet that we made a nursery for our daughter and looking at our first grand baby and it's like, man, this is worth it. 19:59.706 --> 20:00.807 [SPEAKER_01]: The work is worth it. 20:00.827 --> 20:01.107 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:01.367 --> 20:15.962 [SPEAKER_02]: And even sitting here, I mean, even laying in bed last night, praying and singing, I said, hey, kind of singing song for you, saying be still and know, you know, while she just wept and doesn't know how do I am I doing the right thing to hear my dad, whatever. 20:15.942 --> 20:38.642 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had that very thought too, I'm like, you know, this is the stuff that we're made that marriage is made for to be able to walk through together, I mean death is not the way God planned it, it's not how it should be, but we have this part of what we're the privilege of walking through these things together and not having to do it alone, even though I don't have the answers and you know, for her. 20:38.622 --> 20:49.640 [SPEAKER_02]: for things like this, but just to be there and I have to stop God, thank you that we get to do this together too, because you know, that's not always the case and just grateful for that. 20:49.660 --> 20:58.353 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so many of my listeners are in like the trenches of parenting little kids, like their year kids ages, so they got all the grand babies or at their kids. 20:58.914 --> 21:00.597 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that there's this 21:00.847 --> 21:18.422 [SPEAKER_00]: fear, kind of fears the right word, but just thought that like Mary is just going to get harder and they're going to be all these ups and downs and there's obviously there's truth to that because that's what we're talking about, but your story and what you're sharing right now really points to that like beauty and depth that come from growing old together and sharing a life together. 21:18.502 --> 21:30.853 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I mean, you're kind of talking about it, but I'd love for you to expand a little bit on what are some of those like big joys that you have found in being married for 21:30.833 --> 21:31.173 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary. 21:31.434 --> 21:36.861 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Graham, Graham parenting is going together is such an amazing thing. 21:36.941 --> 21:40.687 [SPEAKER_01]: And we understand the bumper sticker that says, if I know in Grand Kids, we're going to be this great. 21:40.707 --> 21:45.093 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have had them first because parenting is not for the meat to fart. 21:45.173 --> 21:45.493 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 21:45.814 --> 21:47.897 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are a lot of ups and downs. 21:47.917 --> 21:56.028 [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say, too, though, and we're kind of in a nostalgic season of our youngest graduating from college. 21:56.048 --> 22:00.334 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the close of a chapter for us. 22:00.314 --> 22:18.795 [SPEAKER_01]: because we were going to all these SEC football games and we were watching her share every weekend and they were going to her competitions and we had something to do and look forward to and it's like you blink your eyes and it's like screeching halt and not only is that over, that's the last one and it's like, yeah. 22:18.775 --> 22:21.518 [SPEAKER_01]: just this big check mark in the Chapman. 22:21.578 --> 22:34.233 [SPEAKER_01]: You know that that is this Mark's the end of you know our oldest like I said is 40 she went to Baylor in 2000 and she graduated Baylor in 2007 and now our youngest is graduating college and you know 2026. 22:34.554 --> 22:44.125 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's been a long run of a lot of ups and downs a lot of heart a lot of joy in watching the littlely games and the 22:44.105 --> 22:52.873 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, all the stuff, but recitals, all the things, but you know, I think when you're in that, you know, you fall in the bed and I think sometimes you feel like you don't even know your spouse. 22:52.953 --> 22:55.856 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's like, we're just on to the next thing, on to the next thing, on to the next thing. 22:55.936 --> 23:04.224 [SPEAKER_01]: I think for us, this nostalgia of watching Stevie Joy kind of finished this chapter in our life and know, gosh, this is a huge door closing for us. 23:04.504 --> 23:08.468 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little scary because it's been kind of our identity for a while. 23:08.488 --> 23:13.673 [SPEAKER_01]: And even though there's like seven grandkids ready for us to spend, you know, 23:13.653 --> 23:35.340 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have this unique situation where all four of our parents are living and stepping into, you know, being caretakers, it's this joy that comes with, you know, I've been looking back a lot and, you know, and you say hindsight's 2020, it's like, we did that like we got these kids like they did not, you know, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't, we didn 23:35.894 --> 24:00.838 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like they survived kindergarten and so just and even in, you know, even in the heartbreaking of losing one, you know, even in that the way we navigated the loss with our children and, you know, how we tried to, you know, just work through that again, another, you know, good reason for counseling and a lot of time spent, you know, working on grief and 24:00.818 --> 24:14.171 [SPEAKER_01]: a hard, it's just, I think if I could say to anybody that's in the thick of raising their children, it's man, just try to just stop and go, this is such a vapor and we are going to blink our eyes. 24:14.211 --> 24:18.000 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know every parent says it, you're going to blink your eyes, it's going to be over. 24:17.980 --> 24:38.479 [SPEAKER_01]: it so is and then the satisfaction of going, not only did we do it, we did it together, come heck or how are we raised these together and then watching them could become their own person and again they make choices that we're not always 100% happy about and they have their own thoughts and opinions and you know what it's kind of awesome. 24:38.619 --> 24:39.420 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of awesome. 24:39.800 --> 24:45.405 [SPEAKER_01]: St joe is I still see Joey's credit card bill even though she's you know she's on her own but for some reason it pops 24:45.385 --> 24:50.312 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw a $200 charge to it, like two parlor, and I'm like, she's 26 years old. 24:50.392 --> 24:50.753 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't. 24:50.913 --> 24:51.854 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want that to say anything. 24:51.874 --> 24:53.357 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever, but I'm like, well, that's epic. 24:53.377 --> 24:54.038 [SPEAKER_01]: She got a tattoo. 24:54.398 --> 24:55.980 [SPEAKER_01]: But so I called her yesterday. 24:56.000 --> 24:57.503 [SPEAKER_01]: Go, where did she get a tattoo? 24:57.583 --> 24:59.726 [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't even show me because mom, it's a deposit. 24:59.746 --> 25:00.507 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't gotten it yet. 25:00.827 --> 25:02.950 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's just like, it's just a deposit. 25:02.970 --> 25:03.852 [SPEAKER_01]: This is going to be a big one. 25:04.272 --> 25:04.753 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what? 25:04.773 --> 25:06.756 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, I don't even want to know, girl. 25:07.056 --> 25:08.879 [SPEAKER_01]: Look, that I laid that battle down. 25:09.019 --> 25:10.682 [SPEAKER_01]: My sons are having from head to toe. 25:10.702 --> 25:12.164 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how we lost that battle. 25:12.244 --> 25:14.447 [SPEAKER_01]: But, as a go, we have tattoos too. 25:14.427 --> 25:15.089 [SPEAKER_01]: I digress. 25:15.429 --> 25:28.740 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of awesome now to just kind of see and be their own person and then just rejoice in the fact that it's like, you know what we could have them raised and they're their own people and now we're just kind of loving us all we can do is love them. 25:28.906 --> 25:32.530 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, God, God's got the hairs as their head number. 25:32.590 --> 25:34.332 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that really is the joy. 25:34.372 --> 25:37.076 [SPEAKER_01]: If I could tell anybody, just man, you know what? 25:37.376 --> 25:40.840 [SPEAKER_01]: Just enjoy those softball games and the recitals and just enjoy that. 25:40.860 --> 25:57.259 [SPEAKER_01]: You're doing it together and you might have to run one run the other way and run run this way, but at the end of it all, it's just like, man, those are really the sweet, sweet, sweet years, even though when you're in the thick of it, you're like, 25:57.290 --> 26:03.417 [SPEAKER_00]: We have weekend coming up that is two baseball tournaments and a dance recital in three different parts of the state. 26:03.437 --> 26:03.617 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:03.637 --> 26:06.280 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you're in it. 26:06.300 --> 26:06.520 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 26:06.780 --> 26:12.026 [SPEAKER_01]: I think as you almost have to hire a driver, it's like, I need a third person to just get this person this kid over there. 26:12.366 --> 26:17.372 [SPEAKER_00]: But we're flying family members and to help us because my husband has a torn Achilles so he can't drive it all right now. 26:17.692 --> 26:18.913 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's just perfect. 26:19.094 --> 26:19.834 [SPEAKER_01]: It's perfect. 26:20.135 --> 26:20.395 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 26:20.735 --> 26:21.516 [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to go. 26:21.616 --> 26:24.680 [SPEAKER_01]: So you just have to go, okay, for some reason, this is where we're at in life. 26:24.700 --> 26:25.120 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 26:25.100 --> 26:26.201 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely. 26:26.221 --> 26:28.625 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all you can do sometimes is laugh, laugh and pray. 26:28.765 --> 26:29.125 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. 26:29.145 --> 26:29.406 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 26:29.426 --> 26:29.626 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:30.307 --> 26:47.209 [SPEAKER_00]: So I kind of finally want to wrap up like for someone who's listening right now and they're feeling like disconnected from their spouse or discouraged and where they're at and marriage, like it's not what they thought it was supposed to be, um, or just really tired, like what encouragement would you give to that person? 26:47.594 --> 27:07.088 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess one of the reasons we felt worthwhile as I said earlier to write this book and kind of finally bite the bullet because we've been asked about it over the years and always said, I don't think we have the right things to say in a book, but I think we realized that we have had people along the journey that have just come alongside 27:07.068 --> 27:10.991 [SPEAKER_02]: said, you know, me to us too, you're not alone. 27:11.392 --> 27:20.039 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's again, one of those things it just can destroy us, can just take the wind out of our sails for even keep going because like man, I'm so alone. 27:20.139 --> 27:27.886 [SPEAKER_02]: This is, you know, we're the most screwed up messed up, you know, two people and I just would encourage people. 27:28.346 --> 27:36.653 [SPEAKER_02]: I think to remember to just hear that they're not 27:37.038 --> 27:41.483 [SPEAKER_02]: My bride this morning with that are just so powerful. 27:41.503 --> 27:49.232 [SPEAKER_02]: He just says, come to me, you who are weary, have he laid and burdened, weighed down with whatever it is. 27:49.412 --> 28:06.471 [SPEAKER_02]: Your marriage and like it should be, your kids aren't like they should be, whatever that Jesus says, just come to me, I'm inviting you, but you have to turn to me, because you can keep turning to yourself or all the other things that you think might fix it 28:06.451 --> 28:18.153 [SPEAKER_02]: in on escape from it, but we just, we come to me and I will give you rest, you know, just trust me and come to me and he has done that for us. 28:18.253 --> 28:28.732 [SPEAKER_02]: It has again always been in the timing that we desperately felt like we needed and it's like I've got one last breath and then I'm going under for the last time when we have definitely felt that. 28:28.893 --> 28:29.033 [SPEAKER_02]: And 28:29.215 --> 28:54.615 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think just knowing that he is faithful to his word and if nothing else that we could say from our journey and experience and people, you know, can look at us and go there, there's a couple that can say yes, it's worth it and his grace is enough and just just hang and keep trusting him and turning to him and hearing him say come to me and do go to him. 28:54.916 --> 28:58.201 [SPEAKER_00]: that verse has been on my mind a lot lately, so I think it's appropriate. 28:58.221 --> 28:59.363 [SPEAKER_00]: I brought that one up. 28:59.663 --> 29:00.024 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 29:00.525 --> 29:00.785 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 29:01.426 --> 29:05.993 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I appreciate you guys sharing so much of your wisdom and so much of your story with us. 29:06.013 --> 29:11.341 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's so much to learn just from talking with and listening to couples who have been there and I've done it. 29:11.521 --> 29:15.107 [SPEAKER_00]: And I hope that we can all have marriages that last 40, plus years. 29:15.668 --> 29:20.535 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, man, thank you so much for letting us join you for a few minutes. 29:20.549 --> 29:26.039 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you so much and I'll link your book and all the things and show notes that people can go check that out. 29:26.059 --> 29:28.163 [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you, appreciate it. 29:28.183 --> 29:28.944 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, thank you. 29:28.964 --> 29:29.265 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 29:29.285 --> 29:30.046 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 29:30.066 --> 29:30.407 [SPEAKER_00]: I will. 29:31.890 --> 29:32.150 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 29:32.691 --> 29:33.773 [SPEAKER_02]: All right. 29:34.254 --> 29:34.795 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 29:35.315 --> 29:37.920 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that you love this conversation as much as I did. 29:37.940 --> 29:46.077 [SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciated how honest, even in Mary Bethwer about the reality is a marriage, especially the reminder that strong marriages are not built on perfection. 29:46.538 --> 29:51.969 [SPEAKER_00]: They are built on grace, humility, repentance, and continuing to choose each other over and over. 29:52.009 --> 29:53.492 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I loved that part. 29:54.097 --> 30:01.545 [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a friend who's in the trenches of marriage and parenting right now, I think this would be such a meaningful episode to share with them and I would really appreciate it. 30:02.065 --> 30:04.928 [SPEAKER_00]: As always, thank you for listening to the Christian parenting podcast. 30:05.168 --> 30:09.873 [SPEAKER_00]: If this episode encouraged you, would you please take a minute to leave a rating or review? 30:09.953 --> 30:12.456 [SPEAKER_00]: It really does help more parents find these conversations. 30:12.596 --> 30:14.078 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you again for being here. 30:14.138 --> 30:18.282 [SPEAKER_00]: Make God meet you in the ordinary moments of your marriage and your family life. 30:18.633 --> 30:25.094 [SPEAKER_00]: May He give you patience when you feel weary, grace when relationships feel hard and wisdom for the season you are in right now. 30:25.615 --> 30:31.073 [SPEAKER_00]: May your home be marked with humility, forgiveness, laughter, and the steady presence of Jesus.