[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm UASU.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: Endings have a way of making us pause.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that pause, there's an opportunity to better understand our relationship patterns.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether you're in a breakup or reflecting on past connections, these moments can reveal a lot about how and why our relationships unfold the way they do.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by John Kim, licensed therapist, author of Breakup on Purpose, among many other best-selling titles, and host of the Angry Therapist podcast, known for his no BS approach to relationships and self-growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Together, we break down the psychology behind modern breakups.
[SPEAKER_01]: from flat soda relationships that slowly lose their spark to the ambiguity of almost relationships that never fully take off.
[SPEAKER_01]: We explore what these dynamics reveal about attachment, timing, and emotional availability, and why they can be so hard to let go of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than seeing endings as failures, this conversation reframes them as a catalyst for growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: We unpack how breakups can become turning points for self-awareness, and what it looks like to move forward with more clarity and emotional insight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and if this episode shifted how you think about breakups in growth, we love arrating and review.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
[SPEAKER_01]: John Kim who was probably the coolest angriest therapist I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So happy to talk about your book that's already out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is out wide and also thank you for calling me cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: 50.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like the angry I can own but the cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been getting a lot of angry but not a lot of cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes me feel good.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're so excited.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think like what you ate I love about your work.
[SPEAKER_03]: You are able to take these times of life that often a times feel like a setback and use them as a catalyst for growth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: After a breakup, once the dust settles and you're ready to kind of examine the black box to see how the play went down, there's so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: growth soil and if you try to find someone else as fast as you can, that growth soil will calcify because now you're in a new dynamic and things that you could have looked at and repaired and investigated like that step is missed and now you're creating something with someone new.
[SPEAKER_01]: You really have a fresh take on breakups, which I really appreciate, because it's probably one of my favorite topics, believe they're not, it's so great because we don't talk about breakups.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about heartbreak, we talk about getting back into dating, we don't talk about the act of moving away from a relationship, and you say, turn a heartbreak into a breakthrough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so why do you think it's important for us to really turn our attention to the breakup itself?
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for championing breakups because I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't really talk a lot about what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I think there's different types of breakups.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of my angles of this book is no one talks about how there's different types of breakups and what's prescribed based on the type of breakups.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, if it's a what I call flat soda breakup where the breakup was mutual, you're healing from that's going to be very different than say blindsided breakup, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where someone blindsided you one day, you're with someone next to you're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think not all breakup are the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and you talk about like your kind of mother of all breakups, your divorce that you went through.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, late in the work.
[SPEAKER_03]: The D-word.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're definitely gonna go into the different types of breakups later on, but I'm curious like with the divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: It clearly reset like a whole new chapter for you as becoming a therapist and being with your now wife by the way, congrats.
[SPEAKER_03]: We saw that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're recent wedding.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, your beautiful daughters, like how would you look at your divorce now that like got you here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when I went through the divorce at that time I was 35, had no sense of self, was broke, had no sense of purpose, and I was a screenwriter, spent many years just kind of like punching keys at coffee shops, and the divorce kind of taught me my knees.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at that time, it was the hardest thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was a worse thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: that happened in my life at that time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The sky was falling, what am I going to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: My ex, I put on a pedestal and my life was revolving around her.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the sun went down.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now looking back, if it wasn't for that one event, because it completely repositioned me, I don't know what I would be doing today, you know, I don't think I'd be a therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would still probably be a miserable fuck, on which I, which I was, it changed my life by forcing me to look at myself and re-examine my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I wouldn't have done that unless something
[SPEAKER_01]: You talk about how in a breakup it spotlights the parts of yourself that were buried in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also I would say not all of us going through a breakup choose to spotlight those areas.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what was it about this divorce breakup that motivated you to do the work?
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't really have a choice because with the divorce, I kind of left with nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't money.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to Craigslist and found the roommate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so starting there at 35, I didn't know who I was or what I was going to do with my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, when you lose everything, you have nothing to lose.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's almost easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be harder for me now with the whole picket fence thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But back then, leaving, it was kind of a clean break.
[SPEAKER_00]: My first question was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I do?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I start?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew that it would be an inward journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just start re-evaluating everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I wanted to do, my relationships, what made me feel alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like, you know, one day at a time, but I really kind of like shook my life at just sketch, which is dating me, I guess, but that's a really strange thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one probably knows what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: We do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, we do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you guys know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a toy that you want to shake it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It clears the drawing and you can start over.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the Smithsonian right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what you have?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we know that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_03]: I believe you first, I can't.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a vintage.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you remember, like, was there any defining point, John, where you were just, like, okay, I'm seeing now the beauty of the Sprake Up?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, wow, that's a tipping point, you know, when you start to see beauty in the pain, that's such a great moment, that's such a great tipping.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I would say one of the things I did about a motorcycle, I've had six now and after my divorce, I said, I've always wanted a motorcycle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone said no, all girlfriends said no, parents said no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, fuck, I'm gonna get one real quick, and then it's gonna come with me like, if I was an action figure to be the package, you can't separate us.
[SPEAKER_00]: It comes together in the box.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I rushed down, got this little more cycle to Cardi, and I would say moments on that bike, hugging canyons in Malibu, where I felt connected to the part of me when I was like 12.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was ripping around with a bull haircut and a strawberry short cake t-shirt because my parents didn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like 10 and a little scooter I felt so free in the 80s.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was my wonder years and I connected to that part of me that I locked into a hope chest because life happened, you know
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when things started tipping.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was more of a somatic thing, not a logical thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a felt sense in my body.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is why I say that sometimes self-betterment is more about a reunion than anything else, because in relationship, especially marriages, long-term relationships, you start disconnecting with parts of you that you actually like or forgot about, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, that's interesting you say that because I think about my last major breakup due to infidelity, one of your eight breakups that you described in your book and I think there was a moment where I reconnected to my childhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember being in Athens, Greece, and there was a hopscotch, someone drew one with chalk.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could not help but play on this hopscotch and strangers walked by and said,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do remember that moment being welcoming of this like six year old self of that I kind of forgot about and sweat away somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt really good after that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something released in me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting that you also kind of connect it that to your childhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think a lot of us, we are in our solid self when we're children, before taxes, before we know what's cool, or before rejection, before pain, there's like a moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is the one to yours.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is like six, eight, nine, 10, 12, unless you're going through unsafe spaces and trauma and all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like a purity to children.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not exchanging truth from membership, and they are really in their solid self in that pseudo.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a purity in that, and of course, we lose that as we grow up, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so tapping into moments of that for me on two wheels for you on one leg, but those are valuable moments.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think what you were saying to about the sacrifices that we make in relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I remember after my, you know, big breakup that we're going to go into like that first one that really devastates you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I felt like I lost a piece of myself and I think what you're saying of like no one would ever let me get a voter cycle.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and I think there is some of that that's kind of nice that you're like regaining sense of self.
[SPEAKER_03]: And can you look at any other breakups in your life outside of the big D1 that helped you propel forward?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been every single one in a different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my breakups, I left a relationship too soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the relationship before the one I'm in now.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were together for three years and I had made a blindsided her.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a knowing at a bar we were in Colorado when we realized some things were wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: something's missing, the chemistry is changing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We should do something about it instead of going to couples therapy instead of, you know, investigating, exploring within two weeks I was already kind of moving out.
[SPEAKER_00]: What that breakup taught me was that I was irresponsible and that I was running and I didn't do any kind of work.
[SPEAKER_00]: I pulled a John Kim, which is never saying bye to people at parties.
[SPEAKER_00]: I call it the
[SPEAKER_00]: I fucking left and I left Shela trauma life at triggered and activated a lot of stuff with her and then she went into like a downward spiral and then on top of that I got together with a mutual friend like three weeks after I left and then of course she thought oh this is why you left you been fucking cheating on me Which makes sense so like compounded that and now I'll stuck with leaving a relationship and then dating someone brand new and getting pulled on on each side I had my first panic attack
[SPEAKER_00]: And looking back, the big lesson for me in that is there's a way to leave a relationship that's responsible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a way to break up that is not responsible and that was one break up where I was not responsible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it has it led to a breakup, but I feel like sometimes when I have like things come up with my partner, I feel by instinct to go there also, to like run away from it, and I have to be like, this isn't really what I want with any relationship, but there's gotta be hard times, and that's not like the growth that I'm looking for, like it's actually,
[SPEAKER_03]: harder to push through until like confront stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I totally see that natural instinct and I can see what from your story of if you were to experience that, that you did kind of throw in the towel with it, that you could look back and be like, oh, what was this revealing that I need to work on in the future?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and also having something shiny in front of you, in this case, you know, another person, and then me feeling like desired, I like to say came to that I allowed that to be an excuse to not stay in something and work on something, but leave early.
[SPEAKER_01]: Knowing what you know now, did you ever share this with her?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think she'll talk to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think she likes me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has to read the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I want to read the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: She'll burn that book.
[SPEAKER_00]: She definitely will not contribute to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you go to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you guys wish that you can sit down with your exes and have any kind of conversation slash closure?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you guys like fuck that never again?
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I was able to get that closure with my, like, I guess, most serious acts that we broke up because we had a very open relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're still in contact even though it's not like a relationship of any sort.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've clearly moved on and so is he, but it's more like I've got an apologies from him years later and we've talked and like it does help to some degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think like I wish I maybe had it with like a couple other people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like for me, I was like, I don't feel ill-willed to you, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it kind of like frees you a bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think they're actually one of, this is kind of interesting, but it was like, I was bringing a lot of the trauma from that relationship of like feeling like it was moving a certain direction and then kind of like, you know, got taken away for me and like, sideswiped.
[SPEAKER_03]: into my current relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And actually talking to my ex was able to like put that to bed and see how different my current relationship is.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was able to not bring that forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the closure was good in that case.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you say open, you don't mean namanagami.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you said open relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: You said something about an open relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're less like, um, you know that means something
[SPEAKER_00]: I met like, no big communication, I was like, yes, I think it was real, it's that game out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Open communication is very different than open communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an interesting result from where we're in a funny story going.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, where does that to open?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's so funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, maybe you didn't know John, but we do have an offshoot podcast that we did a while ago called the exit interview where we did bring on daters and three of their previous, like an ex or someone they've slept with or a hook up or fleeing to figure out what went wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we could do a whole season with you if you want to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm just proposing that right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would pay you if you can get my ex's in a
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a couple would show up, but I don't think most of them would do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: If we had a whole season of just John and your exes, that'd be amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'd be so entertaining.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be a bit stronger.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be a bit stronger.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be very curious to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: That'd be so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I do fantasize about this all the time, because I am branding myself as someone who like mentally kills her exes after leaving the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't ever talk to any of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now I'm at a point in my life now where I feel like I could open that door and what I wouldn't do is I don't need closure I don't think that's the purpose.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I would want would be feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think being in an intimate romantic relationship with someone is so special and unique that Your friends your family can't see you in that light and they can't give you feedback in that light so it would be kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: fascinating for me to learn what is your feedback from what you remember from our relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's said that we can't receive feedback when we're in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's only after the last season because it's fire in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now you can give me the review.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: 10 years later, I'm ready.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm ready to take it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for me, the first thing I would want would be to know that they don't hate me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then even if we're never going to teach other again, I mean, you know, we're on the spent for such a short time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, like you, yes, I would want some feedback on how I showed up in, you know, what I can work on for sure, valuable.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well that's why I think breakups are so hard because obviously if you're the one being broken up with like that is you know there's a lot of self-esteem and worth that comes with that and then if you're the one doing the breaking up there is like guilt in this feeling like you're a bad guy or girl or whoever there is this quote that you used to have like above her bed that was like we're all each other's consequences
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that you're like she had it above her bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: So interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the mantra.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were supposed to watch the consequences.
[SPEAKER_02]: Imagine every guy coming so far.
[SPEAKER_02]: You feel boring.
[SPEAKER_03]: I never thought of it that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you did have it like right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little dark.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean it could be kind of kinky, but it's a little dark.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was like, why was I single during that period of my life?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have just uncovered.
[SPEAKER_00]: What made you put that banner above your bed?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's because I had felt that everybody was carrying someone else into their current environment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody came into a relationship a clean slate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everybody's carrying a little bit of someone else right before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I see what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all each other's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's residue from previous questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not coming in fresh.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're coming in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Staying.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think finding that closure can help you show up better for the next person too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also that review.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually found closure by just reading your book and reading about the different breakups.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think, you know, whether you're going through a breakup or maybe you're not, I still think this book is super useful.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to go into like four of kind of the big ones, then time permitted will go either further or will at least
[SPEAKER_03]: But maybe let's start with the big break-up.
[SPEAKER_03]: That first true love break-up, because I remember just not be able to get out of bed, like literally be in bed and not being able to move.
[SPEAKER_03]: What happens with this break-up and why doesn't have such a big impact?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I want to point out real quick and you said that you got closure by reading this book and I love that you said that not because it's my book, but yeah, I love the idea that you don't need someone else to do closure because if you do you may never have closure, I actually think closure is kind of a myth.
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens is you have new experiences that kind of eclipse the old you always remember and sometimes we snap back and stuff and we play the highlight real whatever I don't think anything is really just close.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you know the doors closed never again I don't go there and then I move forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not how life is life is gray and there's you know I can't speak for you guys, but I'm in a now going on a seven year relationship and yeah, of course I've thought about other relationships
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean I want to go back, but of course I've played back, you know, the good, the bad, this, you know, sideways, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this idea of closure, I think is misleading.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm really glad you said that because like even when we were just talking about before, like reopening the door and talking to our exes, I think like for me, I had to find that on my own.
[SPEAKER_03]: The closure, like I didn't find that with my ex.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think baby was like a confirmation or like by the time we had that kind
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I had already found it so I was able to just forgive and like move forward and let go a little but I think I agree with you like we've talked to friends before and people on this podcast that like when you're purposely try to see closure from someone you never actually get it like it's never the result that you're looking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did have a friend who had an interesting take on closure of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, I don't think closure is about getting answers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about saying what I need to say, getting everything said to this other person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she did write a letter to her ex.
[SPEAKER_01]: She actually read it to him out loud in person.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, I don't need a response from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to say everything I need to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was a closure she needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The big one where you kind of compare all breakups to usually they're associated with kind of our first love or when our hearts were powers know as talked about the book, you know, it's the maybe not high score of the college.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one where in our 20s usually when it was our first big breakup and one of the things I want to point out with this type of breakup is you know when you go back to like your elementary school and you see the chairs you said in you're like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Look how tiny these chairs are in all the memories you have from that time or maybe summer camp the world was big and you know you go to where you got to the fight or where you kiss someone or you wrote your name on the tree and it just everything seems so miniature or different you know as an adult and I think we have to realize that the big one was big because
[SPEAKER_00]: it was like when we were kids it was a very like new first experiences of love and also when you replay it you're not seeing that breakup through you know the 51 year old you you're seeing that breakup back through the eyes when you were 18 that summer or whatever and so in your mind as we're playing things back they are still huge and emotions are big and it's life and death and I think that's why they tend to linger they become you know things that we carry for a long time
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I definitely can see like the younger you are more experiencing this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like personally, I feel like I had some relationships prior, but they were never like that heart felt like I am and so in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: So mine actually I feel like hit what I was like 30 is what I like experienced that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like I guess like
[SPEAKER_03]: can this hit later on like even if you've had past?
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I think that a lot of times the big one is probably the one that was the most unhealthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my big one was it when I was 18 it was when I was
[SPEAKER_00]: 35 that was my marriage that was the big one and a lot of that looking back it I didn't know at the time Was very codependent was in meshed was there was a lot of unhealthy dynamics happening in the relationship Which made it very what I call sticky and that's why it was so big and at the same time at that time I didn't have a life so it was very big the cliff I fell off was very high as opposed to say like now I have a life if a relationship didn't work out the cliff wouldn't be as high And it's not because I love her less
[SPEAKER_00]: that the relationship is not meaningful.
[SPEAKER_00]: It means that I have more sense of self.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, you know, falling into it a bit of nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you also argue that love becomes less potent or passionate as we find more independence in our lives?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's kind of sad, but love becomes kind of flat.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's really, that is really sad to say, but that's really sad, yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's so beautiful about that big breakup is that you really felt this all consuming love for this person.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I could ever feel that way again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if that's just like due to time, or just because I've just become more solidified in my own person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that the lightning in the bottle that we've experienced early on, or maybe even later that had more to do with this function than actual.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is this kind of like, I don't know, sometimes it's trauma bond.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something about the collision of two people with a lot of wounds that can be mistaken for passion and fiery and excitement.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's like makeup sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's like when, you know, it's all chemistry.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very different than building a healthy sustainable relationship with someone and the healthy sustainable relationship probably doesn't have the sparks.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it has its own sparks are just different, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not em 80s going off.
[SPEAKER_00]: They might be sparklers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good, but it's kind of sad, I shouldn't say, but then we think like, oh, this isn't maybe the one or this isn't as powerful, you know, but then we don't play back well, then why did the other one end?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what were those ruptures like, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think what was really good for my growth from the big breakup was that I, I think I had never held this identity as like a girlfriend or a partner because I considered myself like a leader, blooper.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like some of my past experiences were more like one-sided feeling or casual or situation chips, all that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think being in that first big relationship where I fell deeply and had the feelings reciprocated, it showed me that I could love
[SPEAKER_03]: in that I had the capacity to be a good girlfriend and do all the things so I think that actually helped grow positively and then on the flip side showed kind of what it was missing like what you were just saying of what I didn't want in my next relationship so I guess like from your perspective like how can people reflect on the big one to actually help them move forward for the right relationship ultimately.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the big one usually is so big that it makes you not only think about the relationship, it kind of makes you evaluate your entire life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a lot of times a big one is a leaving of a relationship where you lived together.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's life changing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, not only are you leaving a relationship, but you're also considering are my friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: The friends I want, what I want to do in this world, and you do a life audit after the big one, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think because of that, the big one is significant.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a chapter of your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be an act break, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it was for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it made me go to therapy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's kind of propelled this podcast for.
[SPEAKER_03]: There were a lot of things that it did, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it made me go back to school, become a therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it did a lot of things for me for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: What about this almost relationship breakup?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this one has hurt me the most of all the breakups.
[SPEAKER_00]: This one, people minimize, you know, it's like, well, you've only dated the person for a month.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you so sad about?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: or you're not even defined, we always share that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you guys weren't even together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the impact of a breakup isn't necessarily determined by how long a relationship is because sometimes the almost relationship is more devastating than say a 10-year marriage where it was over, you know, seven years in and three years, you guys are just friends, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but the almost breakup, which is really difficult about this is not so much the relationship There's that and that might have been exciting, but what could have been so there's a secondary loss You know you guys talk about baby names and like you paint this fantasy in your head because this is going so well And it's only been a month, but you're like, oh, I could see myself in Italy with this person and I could see what kind of house we'd buy in like this whole
[SPEAKER_00]: other world that's gonna happen and that's just us being human of course we're gonna fantasize and think about the future and so that's gone and that's what makes this so devastating not just a one month but what could have been.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think a lot of our audience could relate to this one because we're in the era of situationships and no one wanting to define everything and then there's like this, it's almost like this shame that comes from it because like you were saying it wasn't a real relationship or we never defined it and I mean I've definitely taught to people that have been divorced and then they had this like two months playing and for whatever reason that hit harder
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, and I think sometimes it's like the blindsidedness.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know you have another one of the blindsided breakup, but like there is something about like I thought this was gonna play out and then it didn't Yeah, yeah, which is devastating.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do you grow from it like if this happens to you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think first you have to understand that why this is so powerful is because of all the stuff that didn't happen that you thought that was.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think just understanding that ground you and makes you realize, oh, everything that I'm losing actually never happened, it's kind of been my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that the collision wasn't real or the chemistry wasn't powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just means that you're probably grieving the secondary losses, more or just as much as what you lost.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think understanding that puts things into perspective.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're like, oh, I see why this is impacting me so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that step one is just to realize that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something misleading about an almost relationship because society, friends, family, are minimizing things for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you feel kind of unseen.
[SPEAKER_00]: You feel like you're crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just put a lot of weight into, you've just been featured dripping.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, crazy, you just have distorted thoughts like everyone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the fantasy, the fantasy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: These relationships have hit me hard because I've always been the one to break up with the person because I realize it's a situation ship that's not going to turn into a relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we, you voluntarily walk away from the future of what could that is really devastating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it took me months to think, did I make the right decision?
[SPEAKER_01]: Could I give it one more go?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it something I did that didn't turn this into a relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a lot of what ifs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the guilt of it, I would rather someone break my heart than me carry the guilt of breaking someone else's heart, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: This one's such a unique one too because like a lot of times when you're walking away from it, it's not because you don't like the person and you don't want it to be a relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, you do, but you just can see that it's not going that direction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's one of those weird conflicting ones that you're like, yeah, I could see the second guessing, did I make the right choice?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is there someone better out there?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do you get out of that mindset?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, if you in your gut, think like, this isn't going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I feel like if you know it's not going anywhere, maybe because two people have drifted too far to turn back or people were just becoming different people and you're just not aligned.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more acceptance in that to me, even though it's probably more painful, then what someone did wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm saying there's an acceptance when you're like, I love you, but we're just not aligned anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an acceptance there and you could get to grieving faster than you did something wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to fix it or you need to change.
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, the acceptance of an expiration to me is easier than betrayal.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the deck's one, speaking of the trail.
[SPEAKER_03]: The perfect segway.
[SPEAKER_03]: You cheated left me for someone else type of breakup.
[SPEAKER_00]: Infidelity is probably one of the hardest thing to heal from.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just doing a lot of couples work such a small percentage of couples survive in fidelity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of it is because the person that was cheated on holds that card up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or they'll say the effort given, but they carry it in the back pocket and every time fight happens, they just look what you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember what you did to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember what you fucked, huh?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it just keeps rupturing, rupturing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually find this one the easiest because I feel like the decision was made for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can act with so much conviction now.
[SPEAKER_01]: When this happened to me, I thought, while it's over.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no conversation, there's no what if, there's no future.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: if someone cheats on you is an instant that did it to over or is there an investigation or is it it's done?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in this circumstance I was very surprised and maybe not surprised that my first instinct was it's over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean there is an absolutely no discussion it's over, but also he didn't make an effort to stick around either so that could have changed the the scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: definitely looking back, although it was like a painful stab, the wound didn't last as long.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do see those, the perspective though, and I'm saying this, not as someone that's necessarily been through it, but we've heard from people that, you know, it also carries like this feeling of like what was wrong with me to deserve it, not everyone processes it that way, like I think you were able to move past that phase, but I definitely know that hit some people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do you actually flip the script on this and look at it as like something that's helping you and not necessarily like your fall that you caused the cheating to happen?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think a lot of cheating actually is new about the other person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we're going to take cheating personally.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times people cheat because it's something that they're going through.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be, I mean, anything from, you know, they're not being happy in their lives, maybe a self-sabotage.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, what's on cheat on you?
[SPEAKER_00]: You instantly internalize what's I not enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: They might not attractive enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: It might not good in bed and all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say most of the time, it actually has nothing to do with you or the relationship, but as a do with the person, their way of coping, their feeling inadequate and secure, all of that stuff, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: The story I just shared about three weeks after me breaking up with someone, I was dating someone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I technically didn't cheat on that person, but and that had to do with me not feeling desired and suddenly this very attractive like the, you know, the prom queen, if you will gave me attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was within me my security and me wanting to feel desired more so than anything wrong with the relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, where do you think the growth happens though for the person that either experienced the cheating or maybe even the cheater?
[SPEAKER_00]: The growth always happens in the exploration of self, why you cheated where it came from.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, once you go below the surface, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, the cheating is what's on the surface.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did that come from?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did I do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: What was I trying to numb or seek?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, I'm like, what hole was I trying to fill?
[SPEAKER_00]: If any, I think that exploration of self is where always, you know, revelations have been growth happens understanding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not about just judging blaming it's about exploring yourself, your patterns or, you know, all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which is always hardest part.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also cheating can just be like wrong place, wrong time, you know, one too much to drink and just a huge mistake, we're human, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, kind of like going deep into why am I feeling this way because this happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it bringing up for me and what is that related to from my past?
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are all, I think questions that I had to deal with in a very confrontational way that was a little scary to kind of like, yeah, you'll go back to the past and other experiences that I've had.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just don't understand, and I will get to the fourth one too, but I just don't understand why, for so long, our culture preaches, numbing the pain.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, in all the movies and TV shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so, so you went through a breakup.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's hit the bars.
[SPEAKER_01]: The best way to get over someone to get under someone, go to a concert, go to a music festival, go get lost somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: go do some drugs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this so much like about numbing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a way that was effective until we realized the long-term effects of that being not effective?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what you're hearing are voices from cheerleaders who don't really know, but they just want to make you feel good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're on the sidelines saying, go get late.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, go do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think, I think they have a good intention for you, but they're not people that know what you really need.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of our friends like this, you know, oh, you know what, you dodge the bullet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got someone better for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, is that what you really need?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's up to you to decide what you really need.
[SPEAKER_00]: And no one's going to give that to yourself better than you, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think you a like what I observe with yours, I think you said this is that your first instinct in the past would have been to book a trip and get out of town.
[SPEAKER_03]: But instead, you were like, I'm going to sit with this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to look at what really happened here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that like really propelled your growth in
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like you've experienced so much growth from this instead of taking like a victim mindset of the person that got cheated on, you're able to come out empowered.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I do think even in the worst of circumstances like being cheated on, if you're wanting to find the growth, you can't find it.
[SPEAKER_03]: How long goes this?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was over a year ago, and I still can't imagine a year is not there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's fresh in the way that I still think it's probably one of the best things to ever happen to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that I'm saying this in hindsight, but thank you, Julie, for making that observation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I do remember even the day I found out, I had so many friends offer for me to stay with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: When my parents were like, come stay with us and friends are like, you can stay with me as long as you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the old me would have said, yeah, I want to avoid the home that we shared at all costs.
[SPEAKER_01]: so I can't avoid all the memories and not be reminded, but something was calling to me to say, go confronted, go reclaim your space back, and that's what I went straight home that day, and I mentally cleared him out of the space, and I sat there in the middle of my living room and saying, this is my place, this is me, I get to write the rules now.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so empowering.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also want to applaud you running toward yourself instead of a way, running away from yourself would be travel, you know, I'm not getting the fuck out of whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is not always bad, but instead you said I'm going to do the harder thing, which is to sit with it, process it, look at it, you know, that's courageous.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I plan that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, moving on to the last one that we want to dive in deep because while the cheating one was you a this was mine to the tea the breakup that never ends or the on again off again relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was in one for five years with the ex that I mentioned.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think this cycle of breaking up and getting back together it never felt like we actually broke up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, or it would, and then like that devastation would set in and then like a couple months later, it would be like the same cycle all over again till you got numbed by it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This break-up should be called the Chinese water torture.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it really is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always tell clients who say, should I get back together?
[SPEAKER_00]: My first question is, what's different?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, is it someone's hair?
[SPEAKER_00]: Abs, like what's different?
[SPEAKER_00]: And if two people haven't internally really changed so much that it's two new people entering the space, creating a new dynamic, if that's unhappy, there's a high chance what broke this will break it again because it's still there.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and so just because people are lonely or because you miss someone is not enough for that relationship to then be completely new.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could you have to lay new tracks?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to show up differently, you know, and two people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, that's going to take time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two people have to go on a journey come back and be different for any round two to have any chance.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a hard lesson that I had to learn is that love does not conquer all because I mean, I still truly believed to this day that my ex did love me, but it was like there were mental health things there were things in the way that just caused it not to work and it's something that like I took forward that I was like of course I want to love by an ex partner to get me wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the foundation needs to be there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there needs to be more than just love.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I need to be with someone that's ready for a relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd like committed to making it work.
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead of just going on again, off again, what the second it gets hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I'm going to say the try is honest, meaning there are a lot of people who they come back around for round two.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really give it their best shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really want to.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just not enough has changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: People have not gone somewhere and come back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess like the next ones just will touch on really briefly the blindsided breakup, the soap opera breakup, and the flat soda breakup.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that word where it should have been coming for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think each of these deserve their own category?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, because there's still different from each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't like, oh, you're going through a breakup.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Blank it statement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, what you went through with the infidelity breakup, it's so different than say, if you had a friend, who was like, oh, I just went through the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, we broke up years.
[SPEAKER_00]: We broke up.
[SPEAKER_00]: The rush it was dead years ago and it was mutual.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just different animals, you know, it's cats and dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And everyone tends to just say a breakup is to break up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's what you need to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: The prescription is usually the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like if I broke my arm, that'd be very different than say, if I had had life or something.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rick, Rick, you're right, that's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you know, you have a five-year-old without saying, I don't know, I have a five-year-old.
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to go around.
[SPEAKER_01]: But apparently, I'd like this a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I get so hurt when people try to compare their experiences with mine, because everybody knows what you're going through is inherently so different than what someone else went through.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I know people are trying to be empathetic and they're trying to show you that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sometimes I just see my friends feel like the sucks, like this really sucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you're going through, but I'm here for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think one universal theme of all breakups, I really love the way you put this in your book that instead of looking at it as a breakup, it's reframing it as an expiration.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like why do you think this is so important to do the reframe?
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people don't like this because they're like you're comparing, you know, my relationship to milk.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for me, it's helpful because there's an acceptance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could accept that something has expired.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't meant to go a day more.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a breakup seems traumatic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like someone did something to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a huge, you know, it's a chaos.
[SPEAKER_00]: An expiration sounds peaceful.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's sadness, but it's not puncturing, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's helped me with all my relationships that have ended to think that it's an expiration, not a break.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think the expiration is so key because at least makes it seem like you're now moving into that next stage of life instead of getting stuck in the break up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was on armchair expert once in deck shepherd this agreed had a big problem with you calling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's like, I don't, you know, and he was about to say why, but then I don't know how we got on this topic of me having sex with the plumb when I was 12.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is, I mean, he distracted him from disagreeing with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just mentioned site that I had to take with the plumb on his 12th, because I'm so cute.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew it wasn't, I knew it didn't feel like an apple pie.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just knew that even at 12th.
[SPEAKER_00]: And once I said that, he was like, okay, this is what we're going to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he told me, forgot to tell me why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why he didn't agree with me calling a break up in this pressure?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the mystery still to this day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, cause I was so open to it, I mean, I don't know what he was going to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe because I don't know, but I was like, that's so curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like why, why does that bother you so much?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming because it's minimizing to the relationship, but we start talking about me having sex with the plumb.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know how great I was going to say there's so much for this conversation where do we go after the plob it's it's it's it's it's it's on it's on his podcast it's deep it's two hours of me talking about that's okay well we'll link that in the show that's we're gonna title this episode sex with the plomb just to give you some good let's leave that behind we'll leave that to us that's expire do you have to break up with the plomb no
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this has been such a great conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so helpful.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, whether you're in the thick of a break-up, and fortunately December to January is break-up season, so people might...
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe in the thick of it, but I think what I've got it from this conversation and for personal experience, it may not seem like it in the moment when it's happening, but it usually ends up being like a blessing.
[SPEAKER_03]: In the sense of you either realize this was not the right person for you, or it's that thing that propels like major changing growth within you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love just all of what you're saying of how do we start reframing breakups and how do we start examining ourselves and how we contribute it to any of these and then also know that like no one breakup is the same the having the eight different types I think is super helpful for people because one you don't feel alone of what you might be feeling that's unique to your breakup but then you can also see like
[SPEAKER_03]: If something happens, it also how much growth you've had, I think I would I was reading the book, I'm like, oh, I had the almost breakup at this stage of life, the big breakup after that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can kind of see in that sense too of how everything builds on each other and eventually gets you to the type of relationship you want as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: My key takeaway is I actually think this is the perfect book for anybody who's single right now, because so many times people are afraid to date and put themselves out there because of the fear of breaking up.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't talk about breakups because we're fearful of the heartbreak, but if we haven't almost academic approach to breakups and know that there are
[SPEAKER_01]: so many different ways to come out of every type of breakup, we have a game plan now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we don't need to be fearful because we know what's on the other side.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's now a game plan for each type of heartbreak you may experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would highly actually recommend it sounds weird if you're single reading a book about breakups, but there is something really nice about removing the fear of finding out someone's not right for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then where do you go from
[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to warn anybody who gets your book though.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are a partner up, you may just want to warn them before you read the book or like pick up the book, because I had your galley on my coffee table, my partner came in.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, uh, break up.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like a zombie girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, do you want to tell me something?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to have a conversation?
[SPEAKER_00]: The kind of little mislead me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I totally saw that as an author, which is the young purpose franchise, but uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, break up on purpose doesn't mean to break up on purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Break up kind of with purpose and everything on your breakup.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean just a destroy relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not with the books about.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, thank you so much, guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was such a good conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, John, for joining us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, John.
[SPEAKER_01]: And where can we find out more information about you and your books?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go to single on purpose.life, I have built a brand new community for people who are trying to connect to themselves first, so it's like minus singles and just tons of workshops and I'm in there doing two lives a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, go to there and then in the show notes we'll put a discounted link for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then books I assume you can get anywhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: A book's wide anywhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, definitely pick up breakup on purpose.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a great book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll link everything in our show notes and thank you again for being on our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: You haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye.