[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we explore what it means to live on purpose as a father and how legacy starts at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Justin Whitmorely, and I'm Brooke Moser, we'll be your hosts, and we desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to Season 3 of the intentional fatherhood podcast just in early here sitting next to my man, Brooke Moser.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're in Richmond, Virginia, the basement of the law office.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Brooke, I am excited for this episode three of Season 3.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got a lot of trinitarian themes happening here.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're so excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Then episode one of the season, we talked about why work is good and you're made to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And episode two, we talked about your calling, forming your calling, not finding it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: This episode three, I would say is the concluding chapter of our foundations of work because we're about to get super practical in the next coming episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we can't do that without talking about ambition and idolatry.
[SPEAKER_02]: why you were made to want big things in your work and you should have godly ambition, but why you are a fallen being who is beset by idols of identity.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the difference between ambition and onulatory?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we know whether this is an identity or a sin issue or this is your calling?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is foundational.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can't wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, just to add the bigger question and bigger.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, uh, not bigger, but just right there is what's holding you back.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a good way to put it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because that's the stuff that's holding us back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, all that you just should be propelling us forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what is holding us back is like we're going to unpack a lot here.
[SPEAKER_02]: The line between godly ambition and sinful idolatry.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty razor thin, and you might be able to not be able to see it without community in your life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't agree more and should be listening to this with other people and like liking it and subscribing and there you go You know, third episode of you introing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is better than last.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you just keep going You know, you're going to realize I'm starting to be like you're got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But please do seriously raise subscribe and even leave a comment that is how the word gets out And thank you for everyone that's done that we have to just say you you have all been so gracious to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you have questions you can always email those to hello and intentional fatherhood.org and if you have a question leave us a voice memo question that we can respond to on here and all you have to do is record a woman and voice memo with your name where from and let us know do yes so what is holding us back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's ambition, idolatry, and really just getting into the, some of the parts that with men, especially in our work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is, again, just to be hyperclared.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is obviously for our sisters as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's objectively a fatherhood podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to speak from that angle.
[SPEAKER_00]: But of course, a lot of this will apply and have overlap.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to your location, when it comes to calling as we talked about forming it versus finding it,
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of the things that can hold us back, so let's kind of unpack that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you said a really key word ambition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start there because ego is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pride is very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ambition is a confusing one for some because they can easily immediately think,
[SPEAKER_00]: ambition is bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our buddy Ruslan wrote a book about this, uh, got the ambition and kind of describe some of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a great, like if you have no clue or concept or needs an structure that's a great, like, first step to kind of understand a little bit of what we're talking about and there's other deeper dives as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just to say that this is a real thing ambition is actually very beautiful when it's putting the right place God made you to actually be able to and not only be able but to desire beauty desire good things and so it's just to call all of that up.
[SPEAKER_00]: and say, that's here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, let's talk about this idea of, I think, God, the ambition or ambition because there's two different sides to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's ambition, there's idolatry, and really where it sits.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then obviously, I wanna talk a lot about some of the, and name some of the things that hold us back, but I think ambition's probably the strongest place.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, let me ask you, Brooke, when you hear the word, ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: what do you think of?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it a positive or negative competition and just literally what do you think of?
[SPEAKER_00]: So because I know more now, I would say it's different, but majority of my life, it has been probably categorized as not terrible, but not great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like ambitions okay like it's okay to be like be a go getter to an extent, but like, you know, watch it because pride's always there and don't be arrogant.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's even the thing where people have a hard time saying what they're good at.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like as an example, I do think there's a difference between arrogance and confidence for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And being confident doesn't mean you're arrogant, there's also a way to be like overly confident.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's annoying.
[SPEAKER_00]: We all know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But just to say, like ambition has always kind of landed there for me with thinking,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we should have ambition but not too much towards like prideful and like we shouldn't I don't know if we should chase great things because like you know you might squash other people along the way these are just things that I think culturally I would have not known that I was thinking but for a good majority of my life did think yeah Yeah, so that I mean that to respond that's what I'd say how about you I mean I think I definitely grew up probably with a sense of ambition as a bad word
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And fortunately, the Bible corrected me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to set out really firmly at the beginning of this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is like, again, our third episode, Foundations of Work Fund, fundamental to your understanding of work, fathers, is that you should have a humble ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: You should have
[SPEAKER_02]: Because ambition is not a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is a problem is selfish ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me give you two Bible verses to hang this idea on.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first is from Philippians 2, verse 3.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit?
[SPEAKER_02]: rather in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the majestic passage of Paul and Philippians 2, where he goes on to tell what having the same mindset as Christ Jesus who though he was in very nature God, didn't consider a quality with God something to be used to his own advantage, but he made himself nothing taking the nature of a servant.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, you keep going through verse A, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
[SPEAKER_02]: Therefore, here's the incredible part, God highly exalted Him, exalted Him to the highest place, given the name that is above every name.
[SPEAKER_02]: I go back to this passage over and over in my life because I consider it to be the direction of the Christian life.
[SPEAKER_02]: The way down is the way up.
[SPEAKER_02]: What we're talking about constantly in life.
[SPEAKER_02]: is godly ambition through service, we become exalted, through sacrifice, we are lifted up, through going down, we find our exaltation, this is the path of Christ, and I think it's really helpful in a conversation like this because many of our models in work.
[SPEAKER_02]: are people out there with successful careers, or successful companies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we imagine it, right, early or wrongly, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we imagine they're just sort of on this like rocket half of growth.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Christians have to look at it differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: Talked about an episode one of this season, how the difference between good and bad work is not for profit and non-profit, but is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: For God and neighbor, is it service, is it a vote of service and worship for God and neighbor, or is it selfish ambition to make your name great in the world or to To achieve that identity market that you always long for.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this has been really true in my story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I grew up with a dad who was successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was in politics.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a successful lawyer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, when I'm in elementary school in middle school, my dad's a Virginia senator, he's a practicing lawyer.
[SPEAKER_02]: He then became attorney general by the time I was in high school.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, just my childhood framing of what a man was was somebody who people know his name.
[SPEAKER_02]: that people regard him well, their success associated with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, fortunately, I had a wonderful father who was, as humble as he was anything else.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to this day, such as sincere follower of Jesus, so I had like a great input into my life of like this man loves God and out of his love for God another people's, he works and works really hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: But something else was happening at the same time, that's just like I inherited an idea of a man that was synonymous with successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so all of my life, I've been haunted by this idea that in order to be a real father, in order to be a real man, people need to know my name and then get regard me as successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think right there, just if I'm honest about my own life,
[SPEAKER_02]: One side got the ambition and one side just absolute idolatry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's quite hard to know the difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was gonna say how quite hard to know the difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's, so I love this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I've loved about these episodes is they are foundational.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as true to form with our life and to be true to who we actually are, not to to get keep information from our dudes because we don't, if you listen to this podcast, what does that actually look like for you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And why I'm going to ask you this without even prepping is because I want to know sincerely as much as you want to share like you are actually a successful author like you've sold lots of books people know you now you can speak and lots of people want to hear it you can you can get you know attention from people that maybe you wouldn't know before different circles and there's a social media following so you have this kind of package of in our moments not the same as your dads.
[SPEAKER_00]: But on the outside, I could imagine there's people listening watching right now, they're going, well, like, what's must be easy to say just because, you know, you have from their vantage point done the thing that you, you saw in your dad, now I don't think any of that is wrong, like, like, right, wrong, I don't think any of that's wrong, but how do you now in this moment hold.
[SPEAKER_00]: chasing what you love doing that chasing doing what you love.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It bringing a version of that and ambition even now.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does this look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just and I'm looking for the tea.
[SPEAKER_00]: You give me this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm kidding.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is funny, because in some senses, the dog caught the car, and now it's like, what do you, okay, explain that, what do you mean, I've heard the dog caught the car.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the dog catching the car, you know, the dog chasing the car all day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what happens when the dog actually catches the car?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, you know, that's such a good phrase that I think in some ways, I did achieve what I was looking to achieve in my early 20s.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in some ways he would have to admit like he did it, like you did become a lawyer, you did become a writer, like you did become a father.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like Man is again.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think my 40 year old self would look at my 22 year old self and be like, it's as good and as bad as you think it's going to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: As in there is a lot of parts of me that is I just feel so grateful that the Lord has blessed me to do the things that I feel like he made me to do and I'm also more aware than than ever that it I have no more capacity now to make myself happy than I did at 22 when I hadn't done anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm just more aware and I'm also actually to be on a small aware of all the pitfalls of it so let me give us a backing please.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I was in China thinking about applying to law school, thinking about wanting to write, I remember, I had this really iconic memory of being on a subway with Lauren.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, I remember looking at this such a weird thing to do is why I remember it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're talking about the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I looked at it and I was like, you know, I'm gonna make something in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna make something for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even think balls you do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I, I, you asked Lauren.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm fairly certain she does not remember this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she's like, cool, just like, neat, why don't you wear shoes?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so three.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, neat, why are we poor?
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just remember as this moment of,
[SPEAKER_02]: the razor edge that I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in one sense, I really did feel like the Lord was building a story in me in that time of like, prompting me to think about going to law school, my friends were speaking into this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a sense that I really wanted to do something at a hunger to accomplish something in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to my wife, who I should share all my greatest hopes with and all my worst sides with.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember just telling you, like, I want to do something great, and but I also just think of sort of like the pride of that, like, look baby, I'm going to make something of us as opposed to what I could have said, which was I think God is going to do something with our lives, which might have sounded better, but I just think both were very present as it turns out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Both were very present.
[SPEAKER_02]: I went on to, you know, get accepted to law school, do do quite well, and then promptly fall completely apart at the very first signs of success.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I told this story, you know, Adnauseum through our podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think anybody who listens to me reached my writing knows about my complete anxiety collapse, but it's such a marker story for me because
[SPEAKER_02]: right at the moment that ambition was working.
[SPEAKER_02]: I graduated from law school with really good grades.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got in the best job in lawyer and international law firm like a great salary Fent they just fantastic resume the world was my oyster.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm
[SPEAKER_02]: everything inside me was starting to fall apart because work is a turns out it's formative and what starts out as godly ambition crank it through a couple years of private equity running your own business being an investment banking.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Being a young accountant, starting your own dental practice, like going out there and starting your landscaping company, whatever it is, crank it there a couple of years of work and you will be very quickly formed into a person who works for money, for their own fame, and is sacrificing the needs of others, so that you can have the identity that you need.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, through my first couple years of law school, just in the way that I worked.
[SPEAKER_02]: for what really was, I think, a call that got a given me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Worked myself into a pretty self-centered person who was chasing no longer a godly ambition, but a version of himself that he needed in order to feel okay at night.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and man, it collapsed so badly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was 31 years old with a great job, a great salary to young kids and I was having suicidal thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was drinking to go to sleep.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was, yeah, I had any of your medications to not be anxious and so many of my lawyer friends so many of my friends in business to find
[SPEAKER_00]: That's wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So naming that piece of like getting the thing you were hoping for, it's both equally is unimpressive and gratitude, but also like it doesn't solve the thing that it actually may be promises in the pursuit of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be satisfied, I'm going to be fulfilled, everything's going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember I was talking to my therapist and he was I was trying to process with him just some of the stuff that personally it's my life has been obviously different than yours which is I think one of the things that makes our conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I think is interesting to me is as these different things have come that I have been surprised by or things that would be markers of dreams or success in my life in story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was processing this with him and I was like, I don't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: now that some of my deeper prayers or things that I've been thinking through or working towards it happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm trying to say that vaguely because I think the it'll be easy for
[SPEAKER_00]: people to maybe compare, well, Justin's bar as a bar as a successor, Brooks bar as someone else's bar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: For you, you have a bar of success that you are trying to reach in different ways, whether that's subtle or covert, you're trying, or you're just kind of happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really important to say that it's not about comparing what success is to you versus me or others.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you get to the thing and you're starting to do the things that you didn't think you'd ever do, but have dreamed at least in some way and prayed into and thought of and worked towards.
[SPEAKER_00]: it was interesting because I was like so what do I do with this like what am I supposed to do with this now and it goes well you need to you know accept it and I was like what do you mean accept it is like you need to observe it thank god for it this is a new part of life and you're going to have to figure out a new way to live I was like what
[SPEAKER_00]: Hold the phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you talking?
[SPEAKER_00]: New way to live.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what the things that got you here will not be the things that keep you here?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've heard you say this again.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's worth repeating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Say what is the things that got you here will not be the things that keep you here.
[SPEAKER_00]: What that means is like
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the things that you're doing right now to pursue your dream, your passion, your vocation, your calling, all that stuff that we've talked about, all mixed up and working towards it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a certain set of life skills, that's a certain set of rhythms, practices, rules of life that you're living.
[SPEAKER_00]: they lead to something.
[SPEAKER_00]: They always do what positively or negatively.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when they lead towards success or things that you've been chasing, whatever that is for you, and then it actually like the analogy, the dog actually caught the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: we often never think of what to do then.
[SPEAKER_00]: We never go, we just go, we're just trying to get the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then once you got the car, you have to slow down or at least stop and think, what do I do now?
[SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, it's easy for me to think, how do I say this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm trying to be respectful but also thoughtful in my words, but the idea that we are, you hit a goal that you're wanting to hit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now all of a sudden, I have to think of living my life differently.
[SPEAKER_00]: As an example, I travel more now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So traveling more now means like, is there fun involved?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also massive problems.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, getting ready to leave a trip and get back from a trip, that's a skill that you have to got to figure out in your own soul, your own mind, and with your family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a whole different like set of skills that I had to figure out.
[SPEAKER_00]: People me having people that would want to be close or want to be friends to a level and this sounds so stupid and it is, I promise.
[SPEAKER_00]: But more people would like to connect with me than I have a availability to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So honored, so humbled by that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not think that I'm worth a good hang anyway, but like the fact that anyone would want to is a huge gift, but having too much of that like what I don't know what to do with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't know and some people listening well must be nice, I mean you can hear it that way or you can hear it like it's actually just like having a lot of money can be a burden having some of these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're not ready to hold them or know what to do with them, they do become challenging because you're trying to figure out like I don't want to hurt people's people's love people I love can think it so it's just to say whatever got you there isn't what's going to keep you there you have to learn a new way of living you have to learn new boundaries you have to learn what works for me you have to learn new what what are my strengths what are my weaknesses now and one of the ways that he said he's like you have to learn how to manage success.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a phrase that I'm like, oh, I never thought about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's what's coming in mind when you're saying this is I've been, uh, as we've been working on building a vote of legal, I've been reading more and more business books trying to figure, how do you manage a firm into success?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what if this was you come across often is the, the things that got you here are not necessarily the things that are going to get you to the next level of success.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a equivalent principle here in ambition and idolatry.
[SPEAKER_02]: some of the things that the pure hunger that like raw energy of getting your life together that we talked about in the last season are not necessarily the same skills or virtues, because there is a virtue in skill to that, just to want to desire is actually a wonderful thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but in the stage of life that is now giving it away, what are you going to do with this family that you have this job that you have this career you have, what are you going to do with the car that you know caught.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, it requires a bit of a different skill set.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, that has been extreme attentiveness to formation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want to give everything away because we're going to unpack how do you do with money, how do you do a time, how to spiritual disciplines come into your work.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get a really specific in the next coming episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: But broadly speaking for me, a huge deal in my thirties.
[SPEAKER_02]: was moving a little bit out of just raw building and a little bit more into fine tuning of the inner self.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll call it fine tuning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Letting the Lord do a major overall of how I worked on the inside so that I could grow, manage, and steward the things that
[SPEAKER_02]: put this, maybe listen or you could think of it like this, your father who needs your ambition, but your ambition is not for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if your father who needs your ambition, like you are supposed to have a hunger to do great things in the world, that makes you like the God who made the world, who is redeeming the world and who is building the new heavens in the new earth.
[SPEAKER_02]: That hunger in you is like him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: mistake ambition as pride necessarily don't mistake ambition as vanity yes what we're supposed to avoid is vain ambition But yeah, holy ambition is a wonderful thing a holy discontentment like a righteous idea of the world ought not be this way I want to do something about it like put me in coach send me general.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be the one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's wonderful Like you I am send me your father who needs that ambition
[SPEAKER_02]: But that ambition is not for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not to give you the identity you always wanted.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, it was like, I always wanted to be successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my dad, and I'm like, that's not what this is for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I have to do battle every day of saying, my writing is not for my name.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's for other people's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: My law firm is not for...
[SPEAKER_02]: my paycheck.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's for my client service.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an institution that I want to live beyond me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's to serve my employees.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk more about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the dignity of giving other people work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think primarily about how our law firm needs to make money so that we can pay people to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm the last in line, we even set it up that way in a certain way, um, yeah, like, as in other people eat first.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's important if you're, if you're running a business, but that idea that your father who needs your ambition, but your ambition is not for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think is extraordinarily important.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to get into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to kind of talk about what we'll just back and maybe differentiate so people can understand a little bit of more of like, what do we mean by
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say, you know, just to be completely honest, right now I'm 40 this year, we're both 40 this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just turned 41.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just turned 41.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I know for me right now, I am in the stage of where maybe you were in your 30s, where because so much of my life was affected a lot by
[SPEAKER_00]: Last 10 years of my life, I've been having four kids and one with special needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And dude, if you don't think that shapes a person slows you down, helps you hurt you, is a gift in a burden all the same time you'd be wrong, like it is very real.
[SPEAKER_00]: So much of my last decade has been just trying to,
[SPEAKER_00]: As I'm stepping into these career things and ministry things and all the like has been riddled with pain and things that I could easily say, feel like they slow me down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in some ways actually they are the gift that allows me to do the work that I do or has forced me to a depth of place that I wouldn't otherwise have wanted to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm thankful for the depth that it's caused me to have to go with
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel even personally like, gosh, there's those inner fine tunings that I'm still feel a little delayed in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I really have so much of my time has had to been given to other things and just surviving.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then just even like rhythms that I could, you just like as much as I would love to hold my ideal schedule, when you have my wife has a ton of chronic health stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got that and then my, our kids and situations plus we have four kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much that just becomes, you know, you got to pivot.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to move to the moment that's a bad pain dates, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like your schedule goes out the window pretty quick when somebody's not well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm trying to just flip the other coin to say that it's okay that you know, I'm giving myself permission right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's okay that I don't have it figured out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I am very much working towards that and understanding what stage of life I'm in and trying to figure out like,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like anything I do is so grand, but for me it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have to figure out, in my life, how do I hold this new season and not let it destroy me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's the other thing about ambition if you actually pray and work hard and focus.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might catch the car and if you do, you also have to have readiness for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that even mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to talk about what can hold us back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we talk about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was literally just going to ask you because you've said a couple times what's holding you back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think particularly in light of like convincing dads.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully we have that you're made for work.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a calling that you need to form what but you keep bringing up this idea of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, some guys are held back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it held back from ambition or is it held back from the ability to execute or something else?
[SPEAKER_00]: I made a list of things that hold men back with hold.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say all of us back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a huge one is fear, it's fear in both ways, fears of failure and fears of success.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think fear of success is actually a very real thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't always name that, that's real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Comfort, I think comfort holds you back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your chasing comfort or comfort is the primary rather than something that you can enjoy at a moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's becomes everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're distracted.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's huge, just a huge comparison.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is such an insane thing that holds us back is we just look at who we aren't instead of taking a moment to ask out who he's made us to be who we are, that's huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I would say fatherhood specific ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: For every father is exhaustion, I'd say just from every single direction being pulled, you have financial pressure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, that can be both mom and dad, but I think a lot of the time men will mentally hold that as if it's not going well, they're gonna hold that in a different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Laws of self.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that holds you back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just start to be like, you might just to someone who provides someone who gives money, gets money to just make sure my family can live.
[SPEAKER_00]: We forget who we are, what we're living for.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one, but I think the biggest one, and this is biblical, is lies.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we believe more lies and listen to more lies from the enemy than we even know.
[SPEAKER_00]: A John 844, I think this is just such a great reminder, so you can understand that this isn't just negative self-talk all the time, sometimes it is, but I think it's more than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It says, you belong, this is just, just listen to this real quick, you belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: For there is no truth in him when he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar, the father of lies.
[SPEAKER_00]: The enemy in so many ways is literally trying to so lies into you that you believe in the moment you start to believe them as truth, he is one, so the lie that you can't do it, that you aren't worth something, that in your story, there's no way that you could do it because your story is going to hold you back, there's no way that you're going to have the opportunities because of where you live, you're too isolated.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no way God could do something with me because I don't have the right look, the right feel, the right education.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of these things that really actually when you scale them all back are not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just things that you think could be the case and the enemy would love for you to not think, pray, dream, have any sort of God, the ambition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because again, if he can get you to believe that ambition is bad, why in the, like, that's the win right there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's just the fact that we so often go to it's prideful.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's arrogant.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lie.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were created to chase greatness for the kingdom of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: The difference is are you chasing your name or his?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the difference maker.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're chasing goodness for Jesus and you are saying, I wanna bring good into the world and that truly it's not about what you get out of it in that sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not being a theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm being like, at the end of the day, I've lived enough life to go like, no, it's pretty consistent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those who go, I wanna serve you Jesus and I want to actually make your name famous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ironically become famous, but that's not actually the detail that I'm just saying this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like just note this real quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Note that though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like I'm not saying that this is a psychological hack and like if you just pray like this is how you get around.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that because there's if you don't mean it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the funniest thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those who actually mean that and cause the way down the way up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and you couldn't care less.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you start to need this, like if you need your name to be in books all the time, like if you really do, and it's just throwing your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think there's a lot of times where we can disrupt our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we're hearing, I don't want to go into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's
[SPEAKER_00]: this happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a real thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can even have success and then lose it because we're idiots not being aware of what that's doing to our soul.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all right, and we can do much worse than then lose it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can hurt everyone around us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is super important to talk about the high stakes of ambition and idolatry.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a second, I want to get to a proverb that when the righteous prosper the city rejoices because I think these are the high good stakes of ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: But let me talk about the high stakes of idolatry for a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: so many of you dads listening and so many other fathers around the country are failing in their jobs, careers, and marriages and family because of a besetting sin that has a risen from probably their work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's work is
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such an important thing for dads, which means it's such a target of the enemy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's, you know, idolatries of money coming out of your jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's affairs coming out of your jobs or temptations towards them.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's real identity problems coming out of your jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's overwork and exhaustion coming out of your jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's absence and distraction coming out of your jobs because you're so tired, there's unhealthy coming out of your jobs and as you read your lists, broke up like what are the things that are holding you back?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think of how many careers I watch implode because people's success catches up to them and they do the wrong things with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in fact we're living in a two week period at the recording of this episode where there's, I think, I think I counted last night four congressmen or would be governor like races.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a couple across the country that are just like imploded because of financial cheating or extramar marital affairs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And both are made possible by these people's ambition and success, like they caught the car, and they did all the wrong things with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that story is so tired, but it's also so true.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just in small or big ways that happens to so many people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the deep desires of my life, you know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: You asked me to be vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a weird thing to be vulnerable about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please.
[SPEAKER_02]: But.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the great desires of my life, I would say one of my great ambitions is to model a modicum of success with sincere integrity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I have a huge interest in like to tell me most people, if you're listening to this, you might know my name, but like most people don't want to know my name.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the Lord has blessed me with a small amount of success.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is extraordinarily small compared to so many others in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: But to me I feel like a kingdom like the look and that's I think how I know that I'm sort of in Walking with the Lord and a calling that he and I have formed together is because it it feels so meaningful to me I love lawyering.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love running a vote.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I so appreciate getting to able to do podcast and speaking
[SPEAKER_02]: But even in my small corner of my quote and quote success, I just feel that a deep need to be vigilant with friends of saying, I must stay sexually pure online.
[SPEAKER_02]: I must stay above reproach with other women.
[SPEAKER_02]: I must stay financially careful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I get, I think, appropriately nervous around tax season of being like, am I doing this right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, account it, like, check me out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't want.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't want this stuff like I don't because because I see so many people They're holy ambition and otherwise good attempts at influence and power, which can be righteous and good
[SPEAKER_02]: just cut off at the knees because they're not paying attention to the ever present ascending sense of idolatry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think Charleston Nation, if I'm pronouncing names, it's a long term solution.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't realize it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure he's the one who wrote the line between good and evil doesn't run between nations and states.
[SPEAKER_02]: It runs through the middle of the human heart and all of us have the capacity for great holy ambition and all of us have the capacity for utter ruin in our family, our friends, our finances, our marriages, our jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we, you just, you can't do ambition, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're walking intimately with Jesus, you can't avoid your best setting sins unless you're walking intimately with other friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I, you know, I wanna say one more thing about the city rejoicing when the righteous prosper, but I just don't even wanna get there until we name the danger of anyone prospering.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the way that followers of Jesus must be so attentive to holy living on the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: I second Corinthians 10, 5.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys know the verse, but take every thought captive.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many thoughts that come into your mind in the day that you need to just say, nope.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how about no?
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we were, yeah, not that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I can't tell you how many times a day this happens to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think it's just getting even used to the rhythm of like relationship with God is like a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because a thought enters your mind doesn't mean you have, you know, it depends what it is, but it's like sometimes things like literally just pop into your head, spiritual warfare.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's an enemy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's someone else's real.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so funny, but it's also true that we do that for bad thoughts, but when it's good thoughts, we quickly take credit and forget the spirit of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could do that in a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So how many times am I like?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great idea by me and thinking,
[SPEAKER_00]: actually has a lot of fruit and it's a pretty smart and I don't know, like, was that me or was that God giving me the thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: And anyway, it's just to note like what you do with your thoughts is where this all starts, Romans 12, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is about renewing your mind, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's all the stuff that we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: I we're going to get practical like we said hyper practical in the next couple of episodes, but I think with what you're saying just in about and I appreciate your vulnerability on that, but I also think that
[SPEAKER_00]: When you start comparing what success is maybe you're listening to this and you've compared yourself to Justin and you've compared yourself to us or me or whoever like this combination stuff and can we just tell you like please understand that just because there's microphones and there might be cameras or lights this makes us no more qualified.
[SPEAKER_00]: the people that have more cameras and lights on them are more broken in my experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people are honest about that brokenness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some aren't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that it's not about the fact that we have figured something out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we just want to be fair to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't figured something out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've just been doing what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've been trying to God, how do you bring good in the world?
[SPEAKER_00]: But man, my ego's right there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be successful too.
[SPEAKER_00]: murder that part of me but like but please do like use me Jesus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can't say that it's always just like I'm totally good and I have no ego in this and I'm just completely fine now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm doing like it doesn't work that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's still mixture.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still have to think through and confess.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still have to think through and and be aware of pride in all these areas.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think though that if you have a practice and rhythms of remembering like naming what is true and naming what is not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then every day just having a practice to actually acknowledge who God is and who you are and pray into the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: It keeps your heart steady.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to be daily multiple times a day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, it's the only way that I can stay focused and not off.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even with that, it can be easily to get off.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about some of the, what you're talking about though, the good part right there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this whole lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: the practicals.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can dive right into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: My two practices for you all is to be in conversation about how your work or be in conversation with friends about how your ambition is for the common good.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also being deep conversation with friends where you are very transparent about your idols and besetting sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's are the two practices.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're both
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't believe you can avoid it also one you must do with other people which we're gonna Let's just start making a normal call back, which is why you should be listening to this podcast with friends You should be in a small group right now listening to this with other dads because you can't practice this stuff alone If you're not you're listening to this in the car or running great just send the episode to somebody else
[SPEAKER_02]: Not because we want to make our name famous through subscribers and likes, but we, we really need this guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: We really need this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We, you have to be talking to other people about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, my, but let me just, so my one, one thing that I would love and get these are our things or one that we are they they are we, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot of pronouns for a careful.
[SPEAKER_00]: to do not get started.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just go so many things I can say they're funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: The one practice I would love to add to that as you're naming those things is would you please be brave in that group that you're going to meet with and talk to will you name please with humility meaning just like better way honesty what is the big audacious dream that you have that you're scared to tell people because they might judge you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So please, yes, confess what's holding you back, but would you also confess and be honest about how audacious some of the dreams are that God is putting your heart because I think naming it not only helps it, but I think it also gives your friends and people around you to say, I see that too.
[SPEAKER_02]: finally got like the unresistible itch to write a book.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was 2014 or 15.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was more scared to tell friends that I was working on a book that year than I was to like share my internet history because you're you're often more scared to tell people about your holy ambitions than you are your sins.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that's not your for everybody, but I just really want you are application points this episode is be vulnerable with people about your ambitions and be vulnerable to people about your idols.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, why I just want to give this just some theological backing.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is brief, but I just think it's really important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love Proverbs 1110.
[SPEAKER_02]: When the righteous prosper the city rejoices, when the wicked parish there are shouts of joy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have learned a lot about this verse from Tim Keller.
[SPEAKER_02]: The book every good endeavor is really good on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got another book about justice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm blanking on the name that's really good on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a wonderful book by Amy Sherman that is 15, maybe even 20 years old, but has been really helpful for me called Kingdom Calling.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of good writing on vocation for me has centered around this verse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's the idea that it is good for the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is good for the city is good for our neighbors when the people of God prosper.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're uncomfortable with this, okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're living in Mount Right now where people are super scared of Christian succeeding in politics, for example, because power and Christian nationalism are sort of swirling.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's good reason where we're like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's that like I don't wait hold on and I just I just want to be Really clear because the Bible is really clear
[SPEAKER_02]: God wants the people of God to prosper because that is good for the common good.
[SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't want wolves and sheep's clothing the prosper.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, just because you identify as a Christian and identify your public goals as as Christianity does not mean that they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to be careful about the learning work about being like, wait, is that actually a Proverbs 1110, is that a righteous person?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not talking about anybody necessarily you see in the public eye either in business or politics.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just talking about the biblical concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want Christians to wield power.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was it again, we want Christians to wheel power.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to register Jesus followers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Speak up what you have to ask yourself the question, who would be most suited to deal with power enriches?
[SPEAKER_02]: But can we put people who are ready to invert their lives for it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm not saying just by virtue of you being identifying as a follower of Jesus, does that mean you're going to be the best one to do it?
[SPEAKER_02]: But lots of times we have a mistaken idea that we shouldn't, we should be more humble than that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, God is saying, your neighbors are served when righteous people prosper.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you should have the holy ambition to be that person because you can steward the common good and other people might not.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we're talking to, with my law partners about six months ago,
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about how much should we grow and I was like we should grow as much as we can without growing more than we ought and we all sort of liked that phrase.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we were talking about, look, somebody's going to capitalize on the market.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like somebody's going to win these customers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody is going to do well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody is going to make money.
[SPEAKER_02]: What if it were, and my partners are believers or like what if it were people that would use it well?
[SPEAKER_02]: Would it be those people?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not saying that without humility.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're certainly not saying it outside of accountability.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but we want that kind of holy ambition because when the people of God trust or the city will rejoice If we handle it right just leave, and that's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had to huge call.
[SPEAKER_02]: You should do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't do it unless you're being completely vulnerable about all your besetting sense along the way
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe one just defining detail, Christians ought to, unfortunately, the name even Christian now has become so, defined differently, dependent on different places.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just say this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I know you mean is sincere Jesus followers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those who are following the way of Jesus, having power, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Those who are gonna hold it like Jesus would with humility and service at the end, you know, we said in other episodes, the most important thing to do with your life and your energy is to serve.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is to serve, if you want to be filled, you serve, and so this week, get together with your dudes, sit around, name the things that are holding you back, and please, I dare you if you can, be honest with full honesty, name what big audacious, beautiful dreams, God's put in your heart.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've learned a lot about holy ambition from a chapter in James K.A.
[SPEAKER_02]: Smith's book on the road with St. Augustine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just tracks a lot of the life of in thinking of Augustine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hold chapter on Augustine's ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, his ambition shaped the church dramatically due to a lot and he says the opposite of ambition is not humility.
[SPEAKER_02]: The opposite of ambition is sloth,
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, we want humble ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want that not vain ambition, but that humility of Christ that is exalted.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, it's the tip, the tell us, or the purpose of ambition that distinguishes good for bad, separating faithful aspiration.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where the city rejoices.
[SPEAKER_02]: From self-serving aggrandizement, you can call yourself a Christian, be empowered, and you'll be self-serving, and the city's going to fail.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's by separating faithful aspiration from self-serving aggrandizement that we find prospect good ambition.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that line is razor thin, you need other people to do it and you need practices to guard it, which incidentally, like practices around money, practices around time, practices around spiritual disciplines.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what are the next couple of things I had to talk about?
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know what happened next.
[SPEAKER_02]: Come back next week to find out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be, it's, it's, it's the real practical stuff, boys.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for following along.
[SPEAKER_00]: This, I've really enjoyed, I mean, truly just in these three episodes, especially it's been so good to process this and work through this with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And hearing your heart, your perspective, your background, it's been a gift to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, see you next week.