WEBVTT 00:09.160 --> 00:14.067 [SPEAKER_00]: What's up everyone, welcome to the crypto-maverage podcast and we have a great guest here today. 00:14.127 --> 00:24.422 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Bradley from the decimal foundation and they are an on-chain trading infrastructure that brings trading, matching risk management on-chain to make market faster. 00:24.823 --> 00:28.909 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, more transparent and rest reliant on the middle man. 00:29.229 --> 00:31.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Bradley really excited to have you on the podcast today. 00:32.774 --> 00:34.797 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks for having me, look forward to it. 00:34.945 --> 00:36.951 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and we got Joe in the House today. 00:37.091 --> 00:41.082 [SPEAKER_00]: So we'd love to kind of chop it up and talk about all things that you're involved in. 00:41.122 --> 00:44.932 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we get going, we'd love to know a little bit about your background. 00:44.973 --> 00:46.737 [SPEAKER_00]: How'd you get involved with this, Paul? 00:46.758 --> 00:47.299 [SPEAKER_00]: What's it? 00:47.319 --> 00:49.866 [SPEAKER_00]: What's your background to get into the overall crypto industry? 00:50.437 --> 01:17.052 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I started my career in kind of emerging market traditional finance spent 10 years kind of solving cross-border issues like access to financial products, getting capital cross-borders to invest in different infrastructure products, and you kind of just slowly over time see all of the barriers of entry, the lack of financial products, financial access, even just people without bank accounts in a lot of emerging market areas. 01:17.032 --> 01:24.946 [SPEAKER_02]: And I kind of originally drew me to Bitcoin, stablecoins, crypto as a thesis of this permissionless money. 01:25.487 --> 01:27.130 [SPEAKER_02]: You can send it across borders. 01:27.210 --> 01:29.073 [SPEAKER_02]: People can actually manage it directly with their finances. 01:29.494 --> 01:34.062 [SPEAKER_02]: And then have a whole new realm of accessing financial products that previously they never had. 01:34.703 --> 01:37.588 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes just in the palm of their hand, and their cell phone. 01:37.568 --> 01:45.558 [SPEAKER_02]: After 10 years of traffic, I kind of took my crypto hobby into full-time running a crypto liquid prop trading desk for five years. 01:45.618 --> 01:56.452 [SPEAKER_02]: So five years we kind of touched everything across the industry, on chain, off chain, cross jurisdiction, you know, anything that we kind of saw as like crypto markets are very fragmented. 01:57.013 --> 02:02.720 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you kind of have dispersions and different dislocations across the crypto industry. 02:02.780 --> 02:03.441 [SPEAKER_02]: So we were 02:03.421 --> 02:12.558 [SPEAKER_02]: On the other side of a lot of different events, different inefficiencies whenever we saw there, we kind of set up deployed some strategies and then brought markets back to being efficient. 02:12.919 --> 02:21.936 [SPEAKER_02]: And in last year, joined decibel to build out this trading infrastructure, a fully on-chain purpose decks and kind of bring a lot of that trading. 02:21.916 --> 02:35.183 [SPEAKER_02]: Trading experience of, you know, the obstacles, the issues, the day-to-day problems that you have when you're trying to interact on chain or even kind of like recommend to a family member, how do you get started, how do I start, you know. 02:35.467 --> 02:36.730 [SPEAKER_02]: How do I get started in self custody? 02:36.770 --> 02:38.114 [SPEAKER_02]: How do I get started trading on chain? 02:38.415 --> 02:39.237 [SPEAKER_02]: What does that even mean? 02:39.838 --> 02:40.580 [SPEAKER_02]: Why should I do it? 02:41.423 --> 02:44.009 [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly why I joined decibels, kind of built up this vision. 02:44.330 --> 02:51.990 [SPEAKER_02]: We're very closely with the app task goal, well, trading engine vision, and bring that high frequency trading everything as far as, like, 02:51.970 --> 02:57.036 [SPEAKER_02]: price discovery, velocity of transactions, try to see that through on our side. 02:57.096 --> 03:03.744 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think so far, just as a quick recap, we're about two months, two and a half months into decibel mainnet. 03:04.285 --> 03:05.326 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going pretty well. 03:05.707 --> 03:12.155 [SPEAKER_02]: We've seen a lot of active users join and we just crossed, I think, $2.2 billion in total, emotional volume so far. 03:12.215 --> 03:18.062 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, our goal, we're just getting started first step in the right direction and we hope to grow from here. 03:18.650 --> 03:19.592 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's amazing. 03:19.753 --> 03:29.196 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love backgrounds like yours where you have this expertise and traditional finance, but then the crypto or web three world, we we speak in a completely new language. 03:29.236 --> 03:33.807 [SPEAKER_00]: So anybody that's getting onboarded into crypto for the first time we're saying, all right. 03:33.787 --> 03:43.258 [SPEAKER_00]: Not your keys, not your coins, and you need to jot these words down, and the user interfaces are always kind of tricky, and all these new platforms and connecting wallets. 03:43.678 --> 03:53.870 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm always a big fan for anybody that's trying to come into our space and just make it a little bit more user friendly, just a little bit less intimidating in just because we need that. 03:53.950 --> 03:56.332 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to grow as a crypto industry. 03:56.352 --> 03:57.874 [SPEAKER_00]: We want more institutions involved. 03:57.894 --> 03:59.676 [SPEAKER_00]: We want more retail buyers involved. 03:59.656 --> 04:04.163 [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to be a little bit more malleable, make it just a little bit easier for everyone. 04:04.724 --> 04:13.777 [SPEAKER_00]: I love to kind of pick your brain a little bit about tokenization because that's been a word that's been just thrown around a ton and especially on the year 2025 and going into 2020. 04:13.817 --> 04:20.467 [SPEAKER_00]: Six now we just hear, we want to tokenize everything it feels like, why do people talk about tokenization? 04:21.108 --> 04:25.815 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think that execution of that is really a large piece of that? 04:26.977 --> 04:31.975 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this, yeah, the theme of tokenization comes back to 04:32.157 --> 04:39.384 [SPEAKER_02]: where we're heading, I guess, as an industry ourselves, and I think Tradfie additionally, which is kind of this 24-7 market structure. 04:39.404 --> 04:47.973 [SPEAKER_02]: And then access to financial markets that previously people didn't have access to before and being able for anyone to participate in financial markets. 04:47.993 --> 04:57.743 [SPEAKER_02]: Tokenization is that vehicle that's solution, bringing assets on chain where anyone can participate and you kind of have that transparent open ledger of those assets. 04:57.723 --> 05:02.627 [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of where tokenizations coming from and where we're all kind of heading towards. 05:03.248 --> 05:10.855 [SPEAKER_02]: And in the execution of it, I think the key thing is, I back to trust and transparency, like anyone can kind of create a token on a blockchain. 05:11.956 --> 05:16.580 [SPEAKER_02]: But what's behind it, what kind of guarantees, what sort of market structure is supporting it? 05:17.001 --> 05:19.583 [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of the execution piece that people are working on. 05:20.083 --> 05:26.329 [SPEAKER_02]: Us as well, although for Perps right now, we are looking at that and on the upto 05:26.309 --> 05:44.402 [SPEAKER_02]: We see the tokenization of treasuries, we see a lot of these traditional finance folks getting involved in tokenizing assets and putting them on chain and has we kind of evolve and as they kind of I would call it like deeper into the pool like right now they might have like a foot in but it wasn't up to like knee level or maybe waste level into the crypto pool. 05:44.382 --> 05:47.085 [SPEAKER_02]: They'll start to see that that enables so much more, right? 05:47.105 --> 05:49.707 [SPEAKER_02]: You can all of a sudden have on-chain markets for those tokens. 05:50.128 --> 05:57.155 [SPEAKER_02]: You can be able to transfer them from you to your cousin without having to go through like six intermediaries on transferring it. 05:57.635 --> 06:05.563 [SPEAKER_02]: And just overall efficiency of kind of cutting out those intermediaries or that disintermediation of any sort of asset transaction. 06:05.583 --> 06:07.985 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's, yeah, we're heading that way. 06:08.005 --> 06:11.689 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what tokenization's going and I hope on the decibel site. 06:11.669 --> 06:32.479 [SPEAKER_02]: As we brought our spot markets into the future to support those assets, like allow anyone to trade these tokenized assets, allow for that open price discovery on chain and just the barriers of entry for anyone to be able to trade invest, have different assets come to decibel and be able to access it. 06:34.687 --> 06:46.175 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a bit novice in the a purpose space, but we know that it's definitely taken front and center here in the last year right with hype and then even a centralized exchange is adding on and becoming competitors. 06:46.616 --> 06:50.485 [SPEAKER_01]: How's the landscape or is it going and should a novice like me get involved? 06:51.275 --> 06:56.043 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say as an novice, it's definitely worth getting involved in understanding what's going on here. 06:56.103 --> 07:09.006 [SPEAKER_02]: So the purp structure inside of crypto, and I think if you've been around long enough of why you kind of see the value and in purpsis, the access to leverage was not always having to deploy your entire capital account into an exchange. 07:09.046 --> 07:13.333 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the real purp thesis started on centralized exchanges where 07:13.313 --> 07:17.078 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, early days crypto, you had a centralized exchange that would go down like once a year. 07:17.899 --> 07:21.603 [SPEAKER_02]: And, and if you had all of your assets on that centralized exchange, you would be wiped. 07:22.144 --> 07:30.435 [SPEAKER_02]: And so instead what you would do is just deposit, you know, 25% of your capital base, use, you know, three, four X leverage and get the same exposure. 07:30.775 --> 07:35.541 [SPEAKER_02]: But without having the underlying asset, the 07:35.521 --> 07:37.164 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, disappear one day to the next. 07:37.224 --> 07:47.122 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that was the, the original like explosion for a lot of portfolio managers or crypto asset to players that were like, I don't have to put all of my money into this exchange over time. 07:47.282 --> 07:54.475 [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of the barriers are like self defense of understanding where the risk line the system went down. 07:54.455 --> 08:07.730 [SPEAKER_02]: Then all of a sudden things like FTX happens and people realize kind of why they should worry again about self custody, why they should worry about what's happening to their assets, and that's a big pivot towards the purpose decks that we have today. 08:07.790 --> 08:09.595 [SPEAKER_02]: So having a decentralized 08:09.575 --> 08:10.536 [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect system. 08:10.977 --> 08:31.245 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you know, you don't have to hope that the exchange is going to be there the next day everything's programmatic and within a smart contract all of our matching our settlement your assets being deployed in the exchange you actually understand everything that's happening inside the structure is not a black box of trust and trying to figure out if you're going to get that money back out. 08:31.225 --> 08:37.614 [SPEAKER_02]: you're actually interacting and being able to see how your assets are being handled, and all of your trades are being handled, as well as everybody else. 08:38.094 --> 08:51.633 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can still access the same leverage that you might want to have on the professional contract itself, where maybe you're not putting everything into the decentralized exchange, you might have part of it yield farming or doing something else on chain with your portfolio. 08:51.653 --> 08:56.119 [SPEAKER_02]: And on the competitive landscape, I think everyone sees that this is kind of 08:56.858 --> 09:01.084 [SPEAKER_02]: the way of the future is kind of on chain exchanges. 09:01.625 --> 09:03.187 [SPEAKER_02]: And this has happened for a bunch of different fronts. 09:03.207 --> 09:14.443 [SPEAKER_02]: Like back to hacks of centralized exchanges, centralized exchanges going bankrupt, accidental data leaks where all of your identity, every user's information gets leaked out. 09:14.763 --> 09:21.833 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's becoming a serious concern for people who might have a lot of assets in crypto and then for their personal security walking around on the street. 09:21.933 --> 09:22.714 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 09:22.694 --> 09:39.268 [SPEAKER_02]: That's where the user base is starting to head towards, also, how do I transact and still get access to all the things I want without putting my portfolio or myself in danger by interacting with, you know, maybe a centralized entity that I don't know what's happening with all my information or my assets. 09:39.248 --> 09:46.417 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, so we've seen centralized exchange, this is started building out their own, you know, decibel being built out by app toss on the L1. 09:46.757 --> 09:50.241 [SPEAKER_02]: And a bunch of other entrance, but I think, you know, each one has different trade-offs. 09:51.322 --> 09:54.486 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, here, what I was speaking about, decibel, I think decibels the best. 09:55.227 --> 09:57.430 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're trying not to have those trade-offs. 09:57.470 --> 10:07.602 [SPEAKER_02]: So other people might have a trade-off where the matching engine, you know, they might be settling on chain, but matching engine your orders or kind of the priority of your orders. 10:07.582 --> 10:09.124 [SPEAKER_02]: are completely off-chain. 10:09.265 --> 10:14.873 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's just handled on somebody's server, your price time priority of your orders, that matching that's happening. 10:15.234 --> 10:27.553 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't quite understand if you're being frontrun or backrun or being treated differently than maybe their internal house desk that's providing liquidity there compared to putting everything on chain like we're trying to do on decibels. 10:27.573 --> 10:31.058 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's kind of our core thesis and SOS is kind of 10:31.038 --> 10:37.709 [SPEAKER_02]: handing back the transparency and the security to users to be able to transact on Shade in the way that they want to. 10:39.712 --> 10:41.375 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's super interesting. 10:41.716 --> 10:49.409 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm certainly interested in purpose trading and have going down the rabbit hole, but the way you just said that made some clarity for me. 10:49.429 --> 10:56.320 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why it's important that every order match and cancel on change just a really big deal, correct? 10:56.924 --> 11:14.140 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's, it's really massive and I think you see this, I think the most like a parent thing of this of how you kind of see what's going on without maybe seeing what's happening inside of synthetic changes is starting to see some of the dex traits where you see sandwiches and and the mev. 11:14.120 --> 11:17.063 [SPEAKER_02]: Those same market structures can happen in a closed system. 11:17.424 --> 11:23.110 [SPEAKER_02]: You just don't see that same sandwiching front running back running or how you're being treated or routed, right? 11:23.170 --> 11:38.888 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of these Dex aggregators might route you to a very specific fulfillment venue instead of sending you to the kind of like a best fulfillment that we don't have the same that's called like market rules on Dex aggregators to always send you to the best price. 11:38.908 --> 11:40.650 [SPEAKER_02]: They might be sending you to the price that 11:40.630 --> 11:45.414 [SPEAKER_02]: that payment for her to flows back to them or where they just want to send it in any case. 11:45.454 --> 11:51.679 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, that's where we see it as like a transparent open thing on chain now and defy. 11:51.980 --> 11:57.164 [SPEAKER_02]: You can imagine some of these same things happen in some of the tier 3 tier 4 centralized exchanges. 11:58.025 --> 12:02.588 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't know how you're being treated inside of that machine. 12:02.608 --> 12:04.470 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great breakdown. 12:04.610 --> 12:06.632 [SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned decibels built on app to. 12:06.792 --> 12:10.435 [SPEAKER_00]: So what made 12:11.208 --> 12:18.140 [SPEAKER_02]: So Atlas has been making a ton of, I would call it like, step improvements towards building the global trading engine. 12:18.601 --> 12:21.025 [SPEAKER_02]: One of these things is block time and latency. 12:21.065 --> 12:24.230 [SPEAKER_02]: So block times have come down to around 30, 40 milliseconds. 12:24.611 --> 12:26.314 [SPEAKER_02]: When we're talking about trading, 12:26.294 --> 12:45.113 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, being as responsive and reactive as you possibly can to the market, when information comes to the market, you want your market makers, your traders to be able to convey that information as fast as possible, those low block times allow for high frequency trading and sophisticated players to come in and provide the quidity inside a decibels order books. 12:45.228 --> 12:52.086 [SPEAKER_02]: As well as the overall chain infrastructure being it will now support all of our parallelized markets. 12:52.507 --> 13:02.072 [SPEAKER_02]: So when we need to calculate what's happening on, everyone's portfolio across a bunch of different market pairs, BTC, APTE, et cetera. 13:02.052 --> 13:23.217 [SPEAKER_02]: the throughput and the bandwidth that we have with app to us on the L1, enables us to process and validate every single transaction that's coming to the exchange, whereas maybe another blockchain we have trade-offs where trading is not the priority, the block times are slower, transactions have to be very sequential instead of parallel. 13:23.197 --> 13:33.011 [SPEAKER_02]: those, you know, tradeoffs is why we are on HotToss today is that they're really building the chain infrastructure for high frequency trading and continuing to improve. 13:33.091 --> 13:42.285 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, you know, where we are today is great and and and HotToss is going to continue in our relationship of kind of enabling decibels trading throughput to keep getting better. 13:42.605 --> 13:49.575 [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully lower latency, hopefully a couple other improvements on on mempoll encryption and and again just, you know, 13:49.555 --> 13:54.685 [SPEAKER_02]: putting the power back to the user, instead of to the simplest intermediaries. 13:57.030 --> 14:01.720 [SPEAKER_01]: How important is market data to a purpose form, trading platform like yourself? 14:01.800 --> 14:08.293 [SPEAKER_01]: We had link and hit on, is that something of a concern with the Oracle price is not correct? 14:08.594 --> 14:10.618 [SPEAKER_01]: How's that related to your sector? 14:11.155 --> 14:27.628 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, every perp deck is using an Oracle provider or some sort of price data, that's the only way that you can actually tie your perpetual contract to the underlying asset that's being traded for decibels infrastructure we partnered with with Chainlink as our data provider. 14:27.608 --> 14:37.058 [SPEAKER_02]: and everything that we're doing on our side is to ensure that all those price feeds are accurate and then working with Chainlink and then working with our own internal risk systems in case of any hiccup, right? 14:37.499 --> 14:38.520 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can see this happen. 14:38.760 --> 14:40.622 [SPEAKER_02]: You can see a price go stale. 14:40.982 --> 14:48.210 [SPEAKER_02]: You can see a price dislocate from maybe the rest of the market or have one of these other kind of sanity check feeds get out of alignment. 14:48.690 --> 14:52.114 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where we're building on the 14:52.094 --> 14:57.667 [SPEAKER_02]: to make sure that we're kind of considering every price input that's coming in and then the broader market in other venues. 14:58.228 --> 15:11.318 [SPEAKER_02]: So to ensure that our prices are as fair as possible, then when we have to liquidate, when we need to match or we need to charge funding, that our market Oracle prices are always kind of sanity checked and ensure it to be as fair for the exchange. 15:15.500 --> 15:16.221 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay. 15:16.241 --> 15:18.205 [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't sure if I was going to get cut you off or not, Joe. 15:19.267 --> 15:23.516 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a decimal talked about cross margin and multi collateral design. 15:23.896 --> 15:28.345 [SPEAKER_00]: Why does feature so important for active traders and then especially institutions? 15:29.287 --> 15:34.713 [SPEAKER_02]: So right now, we just launched our first multi-colateral asset, which is actually the DLP vault itself. 15:35.514 --> 15:45.886 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of see this as you have a yield bearing asset, you have something that's kind of producing a yield being capital put to work inside of the vault, providing liquidity on each change. 15:46.507 --> 15:50.932 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can actually use that asset as collateral itself to trade the purpose. 15:50.952 --> 15:52.194 [SPEAKER_02]: And that kind of unlocks something else. 15:52.214 --> 15:58.281 [SPEAKER_02]: Instead of kind of choosing one thing or the other, you're able to still, 15:58.261 --> 16:02.629 [SPEAKER_02]: Express your opinion on price, you know, maybe you want to go long on BTC, maybe so I had line. 16:03.190 --> 16:04.814 [SPEAKER_02]: You want some exposure to to eat. 16:05.795 --> 16:10.224 [SPEAKER_02]: You can have that same DLP vault asset as collateral for your purpose trade. 16:10.805 --> 16:14.332 [SPEAKER_02]: And decibels are going to continue to kind of roll out additional collateral types. 16:14.733 --> 16:20.864 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's just the flexibility for any trader or anyone who's managing their crypto asset portfolio. 16:21.225 --> 16:21.265 [SPEAKER_02]: So 16:21.245 --> 16:40.485 [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the my case and many other cases like you believe in BTC is an asset you want to have you know long-term exposure to BTC but you don't want to have to sell BTC in order to maybe trade a meme coin for the weekend that you saw was like interesting price action according to like your strategy or your indicators. 16:40.465 --> 16:57.335 [SPEAKER_02]: Being able to use BTC as a collateral asset, deposit it into a decibel and then trade with that as your balance against the per contract to go through something else, keeps your initial thesis and exposure intact instead of having to sell off and go through something else. 16:57.936 --> 17:02.845 [SPEAKER_02]: And we see it also really viable for kind of more sophisticated 17:02.825 --> 17:14.376 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll go trader so when we look at like basis trades or any center of funding rate arms and and other market maker and liquidity providers, they want to be as close to like Delta neutral as possible. 17:14.396 --> 17:16.478 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this this hits on your institutions as well. 17:16.939 --> 17:19.241 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they don't always want to pick up that directional side. 17:19.361 --> 17:25.027 [SPEAKER_02]: They're just looking for that little market inefficiency that they can jump in, provide liquidity and take advantage of. 17:25.087 --> 17:31.633 [SPEAKER_02]: And when we see most of the time is kind of that hold the spot asset, you know, hold that underlying 17:31.613 --> 17:36.781 [SPEAKER_02]: short the BTC purpose into some high funding and just collect those funding rate payments. 17:37.101 --> 17:41.748 [SPEAKER_02]: Your net exposure to the market is you know zero or close to zero is possible. 17:42.088 --> 17:46.475 [SPEAKER_02]: We are kind of earning that funding rate payment hour over hour on the exchange. 17:46.495 --> 17:52.043 [SPEAKER_02]: And so as we roll out more multi-colateral assets in that cross-margining system, that's what it's for. 17:52.063 --> 18:00.996 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like we want to enable people to do what they want and and like the more features you have, the more kind of portfolio flexibility that you have. 18:00.976 --> 18:04.455 [SPEAKER_02]: The better you can interact with decibel and the exchange itself. 18:06.646 --> 18:09.269 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a question about just your raw take on DeFi. 18:09.409 --> 18:12.012 [SPEAKER_01]: Recently there's just been a lot of news, right? 18:12.732 --> 18:14.915 [SPEAKER_01]: And you guys integrate directly with Appdo's DeFi. 18:15.515 --> 18:20.801 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people typically like me, I go back and forth like, oh, you want your keys, not your coin, right? 18:21.201 --> 18:27.908 [SPEAKER_01]: But now we're seeing that, hey, not your keys on DeFi, having your keys on DeFi may actually be exploited also. 18:27.948 --> 18:31.692 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you address that as people come on and trade it on your platform? 18:32.735 --> 18:34.839 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is a big concern. 18:34.859 --> 18:37.483 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're looking at the DeFi structure in general. 18:38.685 --> 18:42.311 [SPEAKER_02]: First and foremost, on the decibel side, we make sure all of our code is audited. 18:42.352 --> 18:55.154 [SPEAKER_02]: We work with a few external auditors on every smart contract that we deploy, every change that we deploy, and then also run bug bounty programs to have other external checkers come in, make sure that everything that we're building is as safe as possible. 18:55.194 --> 18:55.975 [SPEAKER_02]: I think. 18:55.955 --> 18:58.918 [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that you have to do and a lot of teams might skip over. 18:58.979 --> 19:05.186 [SPEAKER_02]: They might go with a budget auditor provider and then we start to see the cracks come in later. 19:05.266 --> 19:12.054 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think for us, it's really important that everything that we ship gets verified and audited before a user interacts with it. 19:12.154 --> 19:14.257 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the decibel standpoint. 19:14.277 --> 19:19.963 [SPEAKER_02]: When we look at the broader defy ecosystem, yeah, it's getting more treacherous and dangerous. 19:20.023 --> 19:23.127 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this comes back to 19:23.107 --> 19:24.368 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, user education. 19:24.408 --> 19:29.593 [SPEAKER_02]: So when I talked to my family or I talked to a new friend getting into crypto is like, how do you separate? 19:29.953 --> 19:31.794 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know it's still a UX problem. 19:31.814 --> 19:46.187 [SPEAKER_02]: Like how do you separate maybe your hot wallet for degener activities on chain from your hardware wallet that you want to have your core assets on from another, you know, maybe like warm wallet that's kind of in between those two. 19:46.227 --> 19:47.208 [SPEAKER_02]: And then how do you manage it? 19:47.228 --> 19:52.472 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know right now crypto UX on that side is not that 19:52.452 --> 20:05.993 [SPEAKER_02]: wallet setup, decibel right now, we're trying to make it easy, but that's just for decibel, which is the exchange accounts come from any wallet that you're used to, EVM, Salana, Sweet, or use a keyless account and just sign in with your email. 20:06.915 --> 20:16.369 [SPEAKER_02]: But as I try to explain, like getting involved with the rest of DFI, is like, yeah, how do you kind of segregate and isolate your risks to your wallets? 20:16.409 --> 20:19.995 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's most important to explain that hot wallet versus 20:19.975 --> 20:23.963 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, hardware, cold wallet infrastructure and then how you interact with it. 20:23.983 --> 20:29.333 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I say, I think it is most relevant like back to 2021, 2022, like NFTments, right? 20:29.854 --> 20:32.158 [SPEAKER_02]: Like spin up a spin up a brand new wallet. 20:32.198 --> 20:38.310 [SPEAKER_02]: Like please don't use your core defy holding wallet to mint this $100 NFT. 20:38.330 --> 20:41.376 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you do not need to expose yourself to that risk. 20:41.356 --> 20:45.202 [SPEAKER_02]: We're still growing as an industry towards that, I think it's just more and more education. 20:45.603 --> 20:48.046 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people learn the hard way. 20:48.507 --> 20:51.973 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that's what we kind of, that's what I talk about when I talk to my friends. 20:52.073 --> 20:57.441 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you guys probably do something similar, which is like, isolate your activities to different instances. 20:58.855 --> 21:22.062 [SPEAKER_00]: you're you're preaching to the choir about that and unfortunately I think people like out in really early into the crypto world a lot of people that you know I've been around for over 10 years and of we've experienced so I interesting platforms and protocols there's always a story out there where it's like man it was so obvious at the time but I hit this link or I bought this coin or I made this end of team mint and 21:22.042 --> 21:32.414 [SPEAKER_00]: So we do, we emphasize with our community, I emphasize with friends and family, like how important it is to have like a secure, vaulted wall with your main core of assets. 21:32.434 --> 21:35.197 [SPEAKER_00]: You probably never want to sign a transaction with that if you can. 21:35.678 --> 21:42.786 [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you are going like you said, Dejan activity have a hot wall, have a warm wall and have minimal funds in there. 21:42.926 --> 21:46.851 [SPEAKER_00]: And if it becomes, because this can happen with a lot of different, 21:47.017 --> 22:01.633 [SPEAKER_00]: Tokens, if it becomes something meaningful, I always recommend, hey, like maybe flip it into a asset that's a little bit more solid and move that over to a much more secure wallet or a hardware wallet, if you absolutely have to use this hot wallet. 22:02.033 --> 22:14.627 [SPEAKER_00]: But just just great advice over all, how do you think open on chain liquidity changes the relationship between all these builders, all these traders, all these institutions that are involved? 22:15.670 --> 22:33.861 [SPEAKER_02]: So right now, and as you mentioned, builders here, like decibels building the underlying exchange structure, the liquidity, the risk engine, everything that we're doing as far as offering pairs, liquidity, and an area for settlement, what it does on that on-chain side of things is kind of allow for anyone to tap into this. 22:33.961 --> 22:40.092 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have builder codes right now, as you talk about builders, builder codes, I see it as kind of, 22:40.072 --> 22:42.576 [SPEAKER_02]: offering different trading experiences that you want to offer. 22:42.596 --> 22:44.700 [SPEAKER_02]: And tapping directly into decibel without having to build the entire exchange infrastructure yourself. 22:44.720 --> 22:57.321 [SPEAKER_02]: So we see kind of telegram chat trading bots, you know, offer your users just a way to send a simple message to say, you know, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, 22:57.301 --> 23:14.398 [SPEAKER_02]: Long Bitcoin here at this price at this amount and then send me back the message confirmation like some people just want to have that chat interaction we see a couple now like games so we see like kind of a clash of plans where they integrate hurts to get the resources to build out your 23:14.378 --> 23:14.979 [SPEAKER_02]: your base. 23:15.319 --> 23:26.634 [SPEAKER_02]: Like all these things are enabled because on their side they just get to kind of build the product experience, the front end, the side of the kind of like trader interaction that they want to see. 23:27.114 --> 23:31.961 [SPEAKER_02]: But on the back end we get to handle all of that matching risk settlement on our side. 23:32.041 --> 23:33.923 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's kind of true for what I see. 23:33.963 --> 23:34.564 [SPEAKER_02]: I look more at 23:34.544 --> 23:54.747 [SPEAKER_02]: like the DJ and people and like those are my my crypto Twitter people like what are they doing telegram and like these fun games on the institutional side also it still matters for them as well so we have a few custodians and institutional providers you know they they don't want to worry about all the exchange infrastructure and the the risk parameters and like how they're getting 23:54.727 --> 23:59.351 [SPEAKER_02]: They're users treated on the liquidations or ADLs and having to manage all that themselves. 23:59.651 --> 24:14.625 [SPEAKER_02]: What they want to see is just deep liquid order books that they can directly tie into, that they can route orders to and understand that they're going to be settled the way that that it's said that they're going to be settled and then they can understand that risk engine on the on-chain side. 24:14.645 --> 24:22.472 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think yeah, we've seen a bit of both and having that kind of 24:22.452 --> 24:31.763 [SPEAKER_02]: and putting it fully on chain allows anyone to interact with it and trade or touch our liquidity or touch the vaults and the token structure. 24:31.783 --> 24:37.090 [SPEAKER_02]: And then as we roll out spot, I hope it kind of expands into the rest of the defy ecosystem. 24:37.110 --> 24:46.261 [SPEAKER_02]: So when you look at deck swaps or when you have like a borrow lend protocol that might need to liquidate some collateral, our spot markets are going also going to be fully on chain. 24:46.281 --> 24:49.084 [SPEAKER_02]: When those orders want to get routed to the best price, 24:49.064 --> 25:04.221 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it shouldn't be undessable because as like a fully on-chain limit order book, you know, that's the most accurate up-to-date pricing with liquidity that should be on-chain compared to any kind of passive AMM model or a different on-chain liquidity model. 25:06.513 --> 25:10.020 [SPEAKER_01]: I, I see a fun little earned for you. 25:10.040 --> 25:14.710 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how you call it, but who's the one who's the Pokemon fan here? 25:14.770 --> 25:17.856 [SPEAKER_01]: I see a trade to win for some PSC cards. 25:18.057 --> 25:24.690 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is, this is me, I guess this is me, I've been. 25:24.670 --> 25:31.439 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I have like 300 base set cards from a kid that I just held on to for a very long time. 25:32.060 --> 25:35.724 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's been really exciting to see more and more people jump into the collector space. 25:36.826 --> 25:42.092 [SPEAKER_02]: The explosion really of just all these kind of PSA cards and the liquidity in the market. 25:42.173 --> 25:44.856 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, so I kind of hit two things, my... 25:44.836 --> 25:53.051 [SPEAKER_02]: My hobby from like a kid of having Pokemon cards and then the trader side of me seeing kind of like a liquid volatile market and seeing that explosion. 25:53.071 --> 25:59.383 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the overlap just clicked right away of like, oh, this would be really fun for for our traders and to give more people involved. 25:59.423 --> 26:02.068 [SPEAKER_02]: So right now, yeah, we were running in eight week. 26:02.048 --> 26:17.533 [SPEAKER_02]: put my card ball campaign, you know, trade to win, just we tried to make the bar really low, you know, allow for anyone that just trades from like $1,000 up to millions of dollars a week and volume, be able to be a part of the lucky draw and win some of these cards. 26:17.573 --> 26:17.914 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 26:17.894 --> 26:26.429 [SPEAKER_02]: So far, I think we're three weeks in now, starting the fourth week, fourth week, which is hinting at it right now, a couple of ganglars coming out, I think. 26:26.469 --> 26:31.076 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll keep going through the week to week with some other high value cards. 26:31.096 --> 26:32.379 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been really exciting. 26:32.819 --> 26:37.287 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's one, you know, I think it kind of gets the team jazz, because when you're inside the... 26:37.267 --> 26:51.732 [SPEAKER_02]: trading engine all day long, making sure things are running, you know, it's kind of a low and then coming up with something fun that both our users are super excited about and then our team are marketing everyone's super excited about that that was a fun thing to go push out. 26:52.910 --> 27:18.546 [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that's that's amazing that's fun stuff and we've seen a lot of crypto projects just absolutely like the uh click the cards token and everything's just like popping off around like real world collectibles and cards and Pokemon uh who's your favorite Pokemon character or card where where should we be where should we be diving into is it not funny yes what 27:19.201 --> 27:26.250 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think like me and the trader side of things, we always kind of look at the base set charts are like PSA times. 27:26.370 --> 27:32.598 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the reason why is like it's the most liquid, like it's like the most liquid back and forth high value card that you can actually kind of trade. 27:33.399 --> 27:37.505 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the trader side of me goes, and I think it's nostalgia as well. 27:37.585 --> 27:43.813 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, base set, the original cards, like kids growing up, and then you had, that's definitely where I look. 27:44.213 --> 27:47.217 [SPEAKER_02]: But I can also appreciate a lot of the newer cards as well. 27:47.197 --> 27:50.103 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a brother-in-law and absolutely loves the things. 27:50.324 --> 27:52.127 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, he has all the modern collection. 27:52.508 --> 27:59.763 [SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of compare a contrast and what we like, but yeah, for me, base set charge arts, that's where to go. 27:59.803 --> 28:02.469 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I love that answer. 28:02.950 --> 28:05.255 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking through a stack of cards right now. 28:05.275 --> 28:05.796 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know. 28:05.776 --> 28:25.422 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a lot of Pokemon, uh, but actually just a few months ago, and, you know, the Pokemon craze has been wild for a very long time, and almost it's like going up in a straight line, but it's hard not to notice, and you're getting more people that are getting older and older and getting more and more money, and they want to buy those. 28:25.402 --> 28:36.653 [SPEAKER_00]: cards that they never had and that was actually a card that I recently bought it was my own first and only Pokemon card was a PSA-9 Charizard from the base set. 28:37.094 --> 28:39.897 [SPEAKER_00]: So I invested in it and I did pretty well. 28:40.077 --> 28:49.246 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't have any real plans to sell it in the near future or anything along those lines, but I kind of was getting caught up in the craze a little bit and I was like, I need some sort of exposure. 28:49.646 --> 28:53.350 [SPEAKER_00]: With that all being said, I've gone down a rabbit hole in Joe. 28:53.330 --> 28:57.175 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been buying like the Marvel rookie cards from 1966. 28:57.355 --> 29:02.822 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, I was like, there's some interesting opportunities here. 29:03.162 --> 29:06.126 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm a collector and investor and heart. 29:06.146 --> 29:10.952 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love how that all, like our circles are all kind of intertwined in that way. 29:11.532 --> 29:17.059 [SPEAKER_00]: But just for anybody listening, I mean, if there's a reason to check out what's happening on decibel. 29:17.039 --> 29:23.851 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is the reason, you know, they're doing this awesome Pokemon collab or we'll call it a collaboration. 29:23.872 --> 29:25.715 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's great. 29:25.795 --> 29:32.888 [SPEAKER_00]: So hats off to everybody that was involved there and I think you're going to have a lot of interesting parties jump in. 29:33.779 --> 29:34.620 [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no. 29:34.720 --> 29:35.961 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, thanks for shutting it out. 29:36.061 --> 29:37.102 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we have a lot of fun. 29:37.522 --> 29:38.663 [SPEAKER_02]: Our users really love it. 29:38.884 --> 29:39.704 [SPEAKER_02]: We all speculate. 29:39.825 --> 29:44.409 [SPEAKER_02]: I think part of it's also speculating about what card comes next week and getting everyone excited. 29:44.509 --> 29:47.151 [SPEAKER_02]: And also, just make the barrier really low. 29:47.171 --> 29:52.376 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, come try out a little bit of volume and you're qualified in part of the lucky draw. 29:52.416 --> 29:54.398 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that was a lot of fun. 29:54.518 --> 29:56.320 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we're going to have to figure out what comes nice. 29:56.340 --> 29:57.821 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what's the B2 of it? 29:58.161 --> 30:01.204 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe in a few months, based upon the attractions of art. 30:01.454 --> 30:07.360 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm just telling you from a retail consumer's point of view, that's very involved in purpose. 30:07.400 --> 30:16.969 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you're coming out with a spot trading and everything that we talked about makes tons of sense, but that little clip, like, okay, we're doing this, you just need a little bit of action. 30:16.989 --> 30:22.834 [SPEAKER_00]: I already have some action on decibel because we've talked in the past, so I'm already involved, but highly recommend. 30:22.874 --> 30:23.315 [SPEAKER_00]: Why not? 30:23.395 --> 30:27.799 [SPEAKER_00]: That's always a lot of fun to get people involved in a very unique way, 30:27.779 --> 30:29.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, awesome chat. 30:29.724 --> 30:31.388 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely love what you're building. 30:31.789 --> 30:36.019 [SPEAKER_00]: I think everybody within the audience, if you're interested, you absolutely have to check this out. 30:36.079 --> 30:41.232 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to give you one more opportunity to give a shout out if anybody wants to find you if you want to be found. 30:41.693 --> 30:44.961 [SPEAKER_00]: But more importantly, how do they get involved with this? 30:45.515 --> 30:50.279 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, of course, you know, feel free to visit the exchange itself, which is decibel.trade. 30:50.820 --> 30:53.402 [SPEAKER_02]: You can also find us on Twitter at decibel trade. 30:53.883 --> 31:02.710 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, I'm more of the CT ship poster than I am, and I'm a company account, but you can always find me at Twitter at Born to Bride. 31:03.271 --> 31:05.173 [SPEAKER_02]: I was enjoying interacting with our community. 31:05.193 --> 31:11.679 [SPEAKER_02]: So feel free to shoot any DMs, even, you know, questions, concerns, recommendations for features. 31:12.619 --> 31:15.522 [SPEAKER_02]: DMs are open, please send them my way. 31:15.502 --> 31:24.075 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, we're all ship posters at heart, you know, I mean, everybody would just say what's on our mind and we all have the same goal at the end of the day. 31:24.095 --> 31:30.304 [SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate you jumping on the podcast and absolutely unbelievable interview and for everybody in the audience. 31:30.665 --> 31:34.911 [SPEAKER_00]: Those links I'm going to put down below in the summary so you can easily get involved. 31:35.292 --> 31:36.374 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for joining us. 31:37.315 --> 31:38.016 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.