WEBVTT 00:01.870 --> 00:07.983 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra. 00:08.484 --> 00:13.834 [SPEAKER_00]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. 00:14.255 --> 00:18.985 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair. 00:26.356 --> 00:27.900 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everybody, Happy Monday. 00:27.981 --> 00:28.723 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for hanging out. 00:28.783 --> 00:30.247 [SPEAKER_00]: You have Carly and CC here. 00:30.508 --> 00:33.195 [SPEAKER_00]: And CC's been running around New York for many, many events. 00:33.476 --> 00:34.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And she's gracing us with her presence. 00:34.880 --> 00:39.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody, we should feel so lucky that CC's able to fit us into her busy schedule. 00:39.907 --> 00:41.390 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a very kind way to put it. 00:41.450 --> 00:43.413 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, being so kind. 00:43.734 --> 00:45.897 [SPEAKER_03]: Like the train was laid, I had to text you. 00:45.917 --> 00:48.141 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's to be like, I'm so sorry. 00:48.201 --> 00:49.463 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm running late. 00:49.724 --> 00:50.585 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm panting. 00:50.785 --> 00:53.590 [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's, please don't watch this on YouTube, everyone. 00:53.991 --> 00:54.712 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've looked. 00:54.772 --> 00:58.018 [SPEAKER_00]: I would like to go on the record saying that CC agreed that she should do fitness. 00:58.158 --> 00:59.200 [SPEAKER_00]: She should do exercise. 00:59.520 --> 01:03.467 [SPEAKER_00]: So when she does the race through the city, that she will be fit enough to record with us. 01:03.447 --> 01:07.834 [SPEAKER_00]: This is just a reminder guys that we fit this in in our busy lives, our busy working lives. 01:08.035 --> 01:21.417 [SPEAKER_00]: We are usually on polls before, after reading things, we drop everything, you know, when we set aside our time to do this because we feel the responsibility to deliver you guys an episode every week, we, I don't know if you guys know this, but we never miss, we never miss a week. 01:21.437 --> 01:25.303 [SPEAKER_00]: We re-arrange our schedules to make sure we make this happen for you guys because we care that much. 01:25.283 --> 01:25.844 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:25.864 --> 01:28.427 [SPEAKER_02]: And because it's so much fun, at least it is for me. 01:28.447 --> 01:28.607 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:28.847 --> 01:30.810 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you everyone for joining us. 01:30.830 --> 01:31.130 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 01:31.651 --> 01:31.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 01:31.931 --> 01:36.476 [SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing off the top today is, so I mean, I've been talking about the Sun Substack. 01:36.737 --> 01:42.103 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been obviously going around the different agent chats, but the scams are really bad right now, guys. 01:42.203 --> 01:42.624 [SPEAKER_00]: Really bad. 01:42.664 --> 01:45.968 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a number of people get scammed by a fake me. 01:45.988 --> 01:49.912 [SPEAKER_00]: If somebody claiming to be me, somebody impersonating me, it's fraudulent. 01:50.173 --> 01:54.818 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I want to 01:54.798 --> 02:01.064 [SPEAKER_00]: and they emailed me saying like I know you have a big platform or is there anything that you could do to bring more attention to how bad this is? 02:01.104 --> 02:03.727 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is me getting on my soapbox about this. 02:03.747 --> 02:05.369 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk through some of the scams. 02:05.389 --> 02:06.810 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about red flags. 02:07.210 --> 02:11.234 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about what to look for in case anybody hasn't heard of any of these scams. 02:11.775 --> 02:13.136 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you an example of what. 02:13.156 --> 02:15.018 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is somebody who commented on my sub-sex. 02:15.058 --> 02:19.843 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been trying as I said on sub-check notes, you know, just doing whatever I can talking about it on threads. 02:20.245 --> 02:23.352 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is somebody who replied back out to me on Substack. 02:23.632 --> 02:28.843 [SPEAKER_00]: And they said, hi Carly, a few days ago, I was contacted by someone impersonating Wendy McCurdy of Kensington Publishing. 02:29.264 --> 02:30.186 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just going to pause here. 02:30.527 --> 02:35.457 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're going to see the chain of how this happens and how people kind of get sucked into these things. 02:35.517 --> 02:40.768 [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's people impersonating multiple publishing professionals to kind of orchestrate this whole thing. 02:40.748 --> 02:43.951 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so someone was impersonating Wendy McCurty of Kensington Publishing. 02:44.091 --> 02:50.877 [SPEAKER_00]: She said that she was interested in my YA novel, Diary of a Girl at the end of the world, and referred me to you to rep the deal. 02:51.257 --> 03:00.866 [SPEAKER_00]: Except your email was C-A-R-L-I-Y-W-A-T-T-E-R-S, so the misspelled my name at gmail.com. 03:00.886 --> 03:02.988 [SPEAKER_00]: And this person says, with an eye, first red flag. 03:03.308 --> 03:06.351 [SPEAKER_00]: The imposter you immediately go back to me, second red flag. 03:06.751 --> 03:08.493 [SPEAKER_00]: I worked with Hollywood agents at C-A-A. 03:08.853 --> 03:10.755 [SPEAKER_00]: Big agents never get right back to you. 03:10.735 --> 03:16.200 [SPEAKER_00]: The fake you immediately referred me to someone to help shape my package, that that that that that for a fee. 03:16.660 --> 03:18.982 [SPEAKER_00]: Third red flag, I don't know how many red flags were at this point. 03:19.282 --> 03:22.705 [SPEAKER_00]: It was amateurish, but I imagine a lot of desperate writers fall for this game. 03:23.086 --> 03:30.252 [SPEAKER_00]: I was once contacted by someone wanting to access my screenplays, they pretended to be a somebody at Netflix, that made a fake Netflix contract. 03:30.392 --> 03:32.954 [SPEAKER_00]: I contacted the real person at Netflix, converted was a hoax. 03:33.054 --> 03:34.916 [SPEAKER_00]: Having lived in LA, I can see scams coming. 03:35.256 --> 03:36.878 [SPEAKER_00]: They still waste my time in a really annoying. 03:37.378 --> 03:39.780 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really sorry someone's been impersonating you, Carly. 03:39.760 --> 03:45.478 [SPEAKER_00]: Later today I'm going to inform Fake Carly with an eye that I've given their information to my sister who's a special agent at the FBI. 03:45.860 --> 03:48.167 [SPEAKER_00]: She is referring it to cyber crimes division. 03:48.417 --> 03:51.261 [SPEAKER_00]: not really, but I'll make them think twice about trying it again. 03:51.461 --> 03:52.763 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's just such a bummer. 03:52.803 --> 03:53.784 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an example, right? 03:53.805 --> 04:01.515 [SPEAKER_00]: So it looks like multiple people are kind of connecting you, eventually they ask for money for these manuscript critiques. 04:01.535 --> 04:10.448 [SPEAKER_00]: The manuscript critiques, and I've seen them, somebody else forward of me, one of these dams, and it's basically just like a chat, G-P-T, quote unquote analysis of your manuscript. 04:10.508 --> 04:16.416 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, see, see, I'm sure you've seen these going around any further thoughts or red flags we should be looking out for here. 04:17.003 --> 04:25.011 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, just this week, a week got two emails from very helpful writers letting us know that someone was impersonating Wendy Sherman. 04:25.031 --> 04:41.628 [SPEAKER_03]: I have Wendy Sherman since I was at the agency and we even posted on our Instagram, you know, to let people know and it's, I mean, I really appreciate what this person said because they said, yeah, it was amateurish, but she also has so much empathy for the people who are really eager to have a deal and to believe in good news. 04:41.668 --> 04:46.993 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what makes me really angry, especially angry, 04:47.581 --> 04:53.912 [SPEAKER_03]: is that this is praying on people's vulnerability and people's dream of getting their work out there. 04:54.162 --> 04:54.482 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 04:54.963 --> 04:56.805 [SPEAKER_03]: We hear all the time and we say it all the time. 04:56.905 --> 04:57.605 [SPEAKER_03]: It only takes one. 04:57.625 --> 04:58.626 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, keep going. 04:58.827 --> 04:59.848 [SPEAKER_03]: Good news will come. 05:00.028 --> 05:01.689 [SPEAKER_03]: You just have to keep leaving in your dream. 05:02.230 --> 05:03.551 [SPEAKER_03]: And the good news is going to come. 05:03.972 --> 05:08.456 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is like, remember that person we had on deep dive runs who got picked by Oprah's book club. 05:08.896 --> 05:09.937 [SPEAKER_03]: And she thought it was a prank. 05:10.458 --> 05:10.558 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 05:10.578 --> 05:11.359 [SPEAKER_03]: This was years ago. 05:11.499 --> 05:13.341 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, Jacqueline matured. 05:13.361 --> 05:13.461 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 05:13.481 --> 05:18.526 [SPEAKER_03]: Like this, this is like, I am trying to step into my optimism era and the scammers are not making it fun. 05:18.766 --> 05:19.647 [SPEAKER_03]: So no, thank you. 05:19.627 --> 05:22.592 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, then yeah, thank you to everyone who's sharing about this. 05:22.693 --> 05:30.366 [SPEAKER_00]: I know somebody because I always say also like email the agency If you think this has been a scam like I just I don't want anybody to go blindly into anything, right? 05:30.767 --> 05:40.845 [SPEAKER_00]: And somebody called the agency saying to currently waters reach out to me because I got this message And I just wanted to be sure and it seemed like an elderly lady and I called her back and I was like, no, that wasn't me. 05:40.885 --> 05:41.787 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really sorry 05:41.767 --> 05:44.751 [SPEAKER_00]: But there is some, I mean, again, we're in our optimism area here. 05:44.811 --> 05:46.132 [SPEAKER_00]: There is some good news. 05:46.292 --> 05:48.315 [SPEAKER_00]: There has been, people have been caught. 05:48.595 --> 05:49.356 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a great story. 05:49.436 --> 06:03.032 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's an article from the United States Attorney's Office, so the District of California press released that came out last week that said defendant pleads guilty, and $48 million nationwide book publishing scam targeting hundreds of seniors. 06:03.012 --> 06:13.923 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, when you can read the full article, I know there's been some news about this, but basically, you know, it shows that how people have been in trapping other people through this fraudulent behavior, but people are getting caught. 06:13.943 --> 06:18.067 [SPEAKER_00]: But these scammers made $40 million on this scam. 06:18.087 --> 06:19.588 [SPEAKER_00]: So we know how widespread it is. 06:19.648 --> 06:23.191 [SPEAKER_00]: And as C.C said, putting on people's vulnerabilities, which is a bummer. 06:23.211 --> 06:25.894 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, happy that some people are getting caught. 06:26.214 --> 06:32.040 [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, you know, doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are still getting scammed, but it is good news. 06:33.202 --> 06:33.743 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, everybody. 06:33.763 --> 06:39.010 [SPEAKER_00]: The next thing that we got sent to us was actually from a number of you and I know that you guys know that we don't work on a lot of kids live. 06:39.030 --> 06:58.197 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't actually talk about that much kidlet on this show just because it's not something that we encounter that much in our day, but a lot of you sent us this Mac Barnett quote and you guys know what I'm talking about the quote going around was 94.7% of kids books are crud and quote Mac Barnett. 06:58.177 --> 07:05.626 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, there's an Instagram from the account at reading middle grade who really kind of got into it and had some thoughts about it. 07:06.187 --> 07:08.970 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's an interesting carousel and I will link to it. 07:09.130 --> 07:10.472 [SPEAKER_00]: So you guys can have a look at it. 07:10.572 --> 07:14.177 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this person's like, you know, defense him a little bit. 07:14.237 --> 07:15.598 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, it's rage bait. 07:15.618 --> 07:16.880 [SPEAKER_00]: We're very aware of that. 07:17.501 --> 07:22.547 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it gets, I really like this carousel because it does get to the heart of the question, which is, 07:22.527 --> 07:34.461 [SPEAKER_00]: is there too many books being published in this kind of this conversation comes around in different ways every year and I obviously don't want to defend what Max said I also want to share his kind of apology so he said 07:34.964 --> 07:36.466 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for the opportunity to respond. 07:36.886 --> 07:41.771 [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, I wanted to acknowledge the passage I wrote is hurtful, especially to people who work hard making books for kids. 07:41.811 --> 07:45.334 [SPEAKER_00]: I understand what people are upset and feel betrayed and trying to make a point. 07:45.515 --> 07:46.696 [SPEAKER_00]: I got hyperbolic and glib. 07:46.956 --> 07:47.537 [SPEAKER_00]: I was wrong. 07:47.757 --> 07:48.518 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm truly sorry. 07:48.938 --> 07:54.724 [SPEAKER_00]: So, anyway, he did apologize for that, but CC, the heart of the question or the heart of the statement or the heart of the discourse. 07:55.244 --> 07:58.127 [SPEAKER_00]: I think centers around, you know, how many books are published? 07:58.368 --> 08:00.870 [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think when you heard that or saw the discourse? 08:01.475 --> 08:05.521 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I heard about it because you shared, which, which thank you. 08:05.821 --> 08:06.763 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what this person is. 08:06.823 --> 08:07.904 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know who Mark Barnett is. 08:08.445 --> 08:10.368 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't, seriously, I don't know. 08:10.468 --> 08:11.490 [SPEAKER_03]: I sure know what his name is. 08:11.970 --> 08:12.832 [SPEAKER_03]: Who is he? 08:12.852 --> 08:14.834 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, very well-known kid-lit author. 08:15.115 --> 08:15.616 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 08:15.636 --> 08:16.817 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, no idea what this person is. 08:17.058 --> 08:18.440 [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, Mark, Matt Mack. 08:18.480 --> 08:18.760 [SPEAKER_00]: Mark? 08:18.800 --> 08:20.242 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know whatever it is, whatever his name is. 08:20.943 --> 08:21.524 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, big Mack. 08:21.544 --> 08:22.065 [UNKNOWN]: Okay. 08:22.045 --> 08:37.085 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do not represent children's books, and I, I mean, my experience with the children's books has been like buying books for my friends kids, maybe this is a nephews and rating to my nieces and nephews and got children, which is very limited experience. 08:37.305 --> 08:51.343 [SPEAKER_03]: I just generally don't think they're too many books being published, because what I think is being more readers, not a few were books, and also the idea of like too many, 08:51.982 --> 08:56.187 [SPEAKER_03]: Every book is such a unique product, and every book has a chance of reaching someone's heart. 08:56.828 --> 09:01.474 [SPEAKER_03]: I understand the, again, don't know exactly what he said or the context of what he said. 09:01.514 --> 09:08.843 [SPEAKER_03]: But I understand the logic of, well, if a space is flooded and there's too much choice, then does that make it harder for things to break out. 09:09.003 --> 09:09.624 [SPEAKER_03]: I get that. 09:09.884 --> 09:16.613 [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't think that given that self-publishing is a thing and given that content creation is so accessible to everyone, I don't think it's possible. 09:16.653 --> 09:18.495 [SPEAKER_03]: Like the Jamie's not going to go back into the bottle. 09:18.948 --> 09:27.884 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're not going to reduce the number of books, I think, so maybe it's just about reframing what makes for a successful walking people's minds, maybe that's what it is a little bit. 09:28.084 --> 09:29.667 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, how about you with the truth? 09:31.029 --> 09:35.337 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a lot of thoughts about this, as I said, I think to me the heart of the question is, 09:36.143 --> 09:51.992 [SPEAKER_00]: Are we publishing too many books and we all know that there are so many wonderful books that they are that there's just done a lot of ways for them to get coverage anymore and so I mean there wasn't enough coverage for all the wonderful books when we had a lot of print media coverage and now we don't have a lot of print media coverage so. 09:51.972 --> 09:53.915 [SPEAKER_00]: However, people finding out about these books, right? 09:53.935 --> 09:58.882 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the whole conversation around pivoting to digital and social media and author brands. 09:58.962 --> 10:02.828 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's self publishing and everybody kind of being the digital entrepreneurs that they are. 10:03.048 --> 10:05.993 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, and then there's obviously the whole self publishing thing. 10:06.013 --> 10:08.877 [SPEAKER_00]: So we just, we know that there are just a lot of books out there. 10:08.977 --> 10:15.887 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it comes back to the stats around the volume increase also of titles being published. 10:15.927 --> 10:18.992 [SPEAKER_00]: I also shared in our little chat CC, a thread post. 10:19.360 --> 10:26.269 [SPEAKER_00]: which kind of analyzes the increase of monthly releases of ebooks on Amazon, which I think is really cool. 10:26.910 --> 10:32.217 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's this person at their account is Alex and books underscore on threads. 10:33.078 --> 10:38.685 [SPEAKER_00]: So things that we went from 100,000 new ebooks a month to 300,000. 10:38.665 --> 10:39.926 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, chat, cheeky tea. 10:40.167 --> 10:43.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, two out of three new books are now AI-slop. 10:44.151 --> 10:49.657 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, this is a visual medium, if you're watching this on YouTube, this is an audio medium, if you're listening to us on the podcast app. 10:49.918 --> 11:02.972 [SPEAKER_00]: But there is a chart, and again, I'll link to this, where you can see, so there's a chart that says, you know, units, and then date, and then, you know, you can see, there's a line of the year, the month that chat, cheeky tea was released. 11:03.352 --> 11:05.635 [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden, you see the delta, 11:05.615 --> 11:08.077 [SPEAKER_00]: just completely flare on the optic. 11:08.458 --> 11:13.183 [SPEAKER_00]: So clearly there are going to continue to be more titles than ever. 11:13.343 --> 11:15.225 [SPEAKER_00]: So this isn't just a traditional publishing thing. 11:15.245 --> 11:19.028 [SPEAKER_00]: This is like the amount of content out there is enormous. 11:19.169 --> 11:30.680 [SPEAKER_00]: And so is it publishing's responsibility, traditional publishing's responsibility to like pull back and you know, in fine tune these lists because we know that all of these books can't find readers. 11:30.760 --> 11:31.861 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just not humanly popular. 11:31.881 --> 11:33.563 [SPEAKER_00]: We just don't have enough hours in the day. 11:34.083 --> 11:37.446 [SPEAKER_03]: It's so complex, you know, like it's so complex. 11:37.466 --> 11:47.074 [SPEAKER_03]: It's such a complex subject because it's just definitely not an easy yes or easy know, especially because to your point, I think you make a great point is this is not just a trappub thing. 11:47.495 --> 11:49.176 [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, it's not just a pub thing. 11:49.456 --> 12:03.128 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I remember reading that YouTube reported that over 500 hours of video are uploaded every minute, minute, and this was, again, coming from YouTube. 12:03.108 --> 12:10.933 [SPEAKER_03]: And think about it this way, like 500 hours versus 60 minutes, 30,000 hours of content, right? 12:11.213 --> 12:13.641 [SPEAKER_03]: Like every hour in YouTube. 12:13.975 --> 12:21.803 [SPEAKER_03]: And 30,000 hours of content times 24 hours in a day that's 720,000 hours per day. 12:22.304 --> 12:37.319 [SPEAKER_03]: So if every single day, YouTube receives 720,000 hours of new content, that means that if someone wanted to watch the entirety of a single day of uploads, they would have to, like watching 24 hours a day, which is not possible, right? 12:37.339 --> 12:38.380 [SPEAKER_03]: That kind of sleep. 12:38.663 --> 12:47.041 [SPEAKER_03]: 720,000 divided by 24, 30,000 days or approximately 82 years, like the one person. 12:47.061 --> 12:47.943 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the one person possible. 12:48.224 --> 12:48.865 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 12:48.885 --> 12:49.667 [SPEAKER_03]: That's not. 12:49.687 --> 12:53.134 [SPEAKER_03]: And if they were to watch it like eight hours a day, that's 246 years. 12:53.776 --> 12:57.263 [SPEAKER_03]: So YouTube uploads more content than a single person could watch. 12:57.968 --> 13:00.913 [SPEAKER_03]: in multiple lifetimes, like in a day, in a day, you know. 13:01.594 --> 13:05.460 [SPEAKER_03]: So, and that's just the world we live in, we live in a world of content overload. 13:05.981 --> 13:14.374 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, with AI, even more, because now you don't even need a human to do it, the robot to doing it themselves, AI even more, like it's going to just do it. 13:15.198 --> 13:27.670 [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, standing out, having a unique point of view, having a chance to even reach people, it's gonna become rare and rare, which is not what I want to hear what you want to hear, but I think it is the reality. 13:27.690 --> 13:34.517 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think it just speaks to what a privilege it is for, you know, the authors and the books and the work that we do when it really does connect with people. 13:34.637 --> 13:42.825 [SPEAKER_00]: I really think it's such a privilege that, you know, when authors get to go on tour or they, you know, get to meet their fans in person, it really just brings to life how human this is. 13:42.805 --> 13:48.493 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't meant to be some AI-slop world, you know, we didn't get into book publishing for that. 13:48.593 --> 13:53.319 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we got into book publishing for that personal connection and working on books I really connect with humans. 13:53.780 --> 13:54.921 [SPEAKER_00]: Not humanoid robots. 13:56.323 --> 13:57.805 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes, here here. 13:57.825 --> 13:59.107 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all right. 13:59.167 --> 14:02.592 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so well, it wouldn't be a podcast episode unless we talked about a sub-stack. 14:03.353 --> 14:07.058 [SPEAKER_00]: So the sub-stack that I wanted to talk about came across my desk. 14:07.679 --> 14:12.445 [SPEAKER_00]: is the Substack is notes from a small press, the author and true back. 14:13.005 --> 14:16.149 [SPEAKER_00]: It was published on May 5th, and I will link to it for you guys. 14:16.670 --> 14:23.538 [SPEAKER_00]: Article is, our agents now the real publishers question mark, and our publishers making themselves redundant. 14:24.099 --> 14:31.948 [SPEAKER_00]: So I saw this headline that's quite inflammatory obviously, you know, and I was like, okay, this is a take, and I really had to sit with that. 14:32.047 --> 14:38.260 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been thinking about this for pretty much a week since we recorded last time or since it came across my desk because 14:39.455 --> 14:50.527 [SPEAKER_00]: I posted a poster like a note on Substack about it, and then I saw, and I was sitting with it, and then I saw Jane Friedman also did a kind of a quote take a Substack notes about this. 14:50.647 --> 14:53.970 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I wanna pull out something that really stood out to me. 14:54.451 --> 15:09.006 [SPEAKER_00]: I said, as I've been working through these thoughts in the history of others who have had such thoughts better than, and before me, I kept thinking of a phrase that a literary agent uses to describe the editing she does with clients before she sends a book out of submission. 15:08.986 --> 15:11.329 [SPEAKER_00]: Before I send it out, it has to be ready to go. 15:11.349 --> 15:14.953 [SPEAKER_00]: That is, and this is a pretty big five-specific phenomenon. 15:15.193 --> 15:20.139 [SPEAKER_00]: The expectations are that editors at the press need a book to be done when they get a query. 15:20.500 --> 15:21.441 [SPEAKER_00]: They won't do much editing. 15:21.461 --> 15:22.482 [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much competition. 15:22.522 --> 15:27.548 [SPEAKER_00]: So when an agent sends a manuscript to the editor, the book just needs to be about printer ready. 15:27.568 --> 15:30.792 [SPEAKER_00]: Some copy editing and proofing sure, but not much beyond that. 15:30.772 --> 15:34.976 [SPEAKER_00]: But what does it mean for a book to be done when it is not gone through the publishing process? 15:35.457 --> 15:43.545 [SPEAKER_00]: It means that what publishers do is not germinate the book itself, the publishers don't shape the manuscripts, that their work is less creative and more operational. 15:44.065 --> 15:45.627 [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, it's a hot take. 15:45.707 --> 15:50.432 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you know, I never set out on this podcast to dissed editors or say that they don't edit. 15:50.452 --> 15:51.953 [SPEAKER_00]: That's never, of course, my intention. 15:52.354 --> 15:58.500 [SPEAKER_00]: I just really think it's interesting when you frame it as how integral agents are to the publishing process. 15:58.919 --> 16:02.266 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we know how integral we are to the positive process. 16:02.607 --> 16:08.720 [SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that I'm doing more work than ever to quote, you know, get it ready to go end quote? 16:09.602 --> 16:09.943 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 16:10.003 --> 16:12.849 [SPEAKER_00]: I've always put a lot of polishing into the work that I've done. 16:13.250 --> 16:16.337 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to read Jane Friedman's take from her sub-stack notes. 16:17.009 --> 16:21.396 [SPEAKER_00]: When I first started working at publishing, authors never asked what is the publisher for. 16:21.857 --> 16:33.054 [SPEAKER_00]: But these days, when publishers say the manuscript needs to be ready to go, when authors hear that publishers don't rely on the market and promote when authors learn that most books sell on Amazon, etc., etc., everything debatable with some truth. 16:33.395 --> 16:37.802 [SPEAKER_00]: Then authors ask more often and rightly so, what is the publisher for? 16:37.782 --> 16:44.491 [SPEAKER_00]: Lay on top of that how big publishers now sign successful in the author for multi-book deals, because those authors have done the hard part. 16:44.911 --> 16:47.795 [SPEAKER_00]: They figured out how to reach the readers at a proven market demand. 16:50.498 --> 16:51.059 [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting. 16:51.960 --> 16:55.044 [SPEAKER_03]: I have not been sitting with this for a week. 16:55.204 --> 16:57.227 [SPEAKER_03]: I read this today, this upstock. 16:58.188 --> 17:00.571 [SPEAKER_03]: I have not read James' take other than what you read to me. 17:01.973 --> 17:05.157 [SPEAKER_03]: Up to me, like you're reading it to me, you're reading it to our listener, sorry to listeners. 17:05.828 --> 17:09.832 [SPEAKER_03]: But I respectfully, very respectfully disagree with Anne. 17:09.872 --> 17:18.500 [SPEAKER_03]: And Anne, I admire your point of view because I think that we need more people with specific and sharp point of views, and I definitely see where Anne is coming from. 17:18.920 --> 17:19.761 [SPEAKER_03]: I do, I really do. 17:20.221 --> 17:28.128 [SPEAKER_03]: But to me, while I was listening to you, read that excerpt, here's my initial perspective. 17:29.870 --> 17:35.515 [SPEAKER_03]: What Anne is saying makes sense, 17:36.187 --> 17:42.914 [SPEAKER_03]: because all the work that agents do to get something to be submission ready is so important. 17:42.954 --> 17:44.056 [SPEAKER_03]: We are doing more work. 17:44.076 --> 17:44.736 [SPEAKER_03]: This is true. 17:44.796 --> 17:46.198 [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely agree with that part. 17:46.218 --> 17:48.921 [SPEAKER_03]: This, this is where you lose me though, you being in. 17:49.542 --> 17:59.933 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't agree that publishers work is more operational and not creative because I have seen editors really, really edit and shape a manuscript, both in fiction and in nonfiction. 17:59.913 --> 18:04.781 [SPEAKER_03]: And these projects are projects that I also as an agent put a lot of work into. 18:05.582 --> 18:09.989 [SPEAKER_03]: Because the nature of creative work means that it's never really finished or done. 18:10.630 --> 18:13.916 [SPEAKER_03]: Like all the work I do brings it up to a certain point. 18:14.717 --> 18:18.563 [SPEAKER_03]: And then it's not that I get it wrong or I do insufficient work. 18:18.543 --> 18:33.565 [SPEAKER_03]: The editor then is kind of like a passive of the baton, you know, the editor takes over, like the author qualifies and they join this link, this link of like professional authors and the editor who's kind of like a coach of this league, this professional league. 18:33.545 --> 18:36.592 [SPEAKER_03]: will take them even further, doing a lot of creative work. 18:36.632 --> 18:38.877 [SPEAKER_03]: I definitely don't think it's just pressing it above. 18:38.897 --> 18:51.564 [SPEAKER_03]: I grew though the fact she laid out, the fact that it has to be super ready, the fact that it's super competitive, the fact that editors are truly very busy, but you know, in the self-sax, she mentioned things like, you know, should the agents just set up their own publishing houses and just keep more of the money. 18:52.305 --> 18:52.566 [SPEAKER_03]: And 18:53.592 --> 18:56.136 [SPEAKER_03]: I know that she does mention this in the article. 18:56.176 --> 18:58.099 [SPEAKER_03]: She was just sharing thoughts, right? 18:58.199 --> 19:01.985 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, she's not, you know, she's super open to thoughts and stuff. 19:02.005 --> 19:02.846 [SPEAKER_03]: She made that very clear. 19:02.866 --> 19:11.078 [SPEAKER_03]: But I think to me that kind of like, I think it's more about how we collaborate together than about one person doing the work of the other. 19:11.279 --> 19:11.940 [SPEAKER_03]: I truly do. 19:12.140 --> 19:14.223 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that's just a nature of creative work. 19:14.464 --> 19:18.149 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember when we did, I think it was our first deep dive. 19:18.169 --> 19:19.431 [SPEAKER_03]: And we, 19:19.883 --> 19:22.409 [SPEAKER_03]: We were enter who was speaking. 19:22.589 --> 19:27.060 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm pretty sure, might have been Sarah Canton at St. Martin's Press. 19:27.080 --> 19:32.813 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think she was talking about, I don't remember what book she was talking about, but she was talking about a book where 19:33.232 --> 19:38.761 [SPEAKER_03]: she had a vision for the book, and her vision was so specific that the author was adding a whole new timeline. 19:39.622 --> 19:50.119 [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember a lovely, lovely, lovely person who was attending the deep dive, saying in the comments, but hey, if the agent got it wrong, and the agent didn't tell her to add a timeline, what hope do we have? 19:50.220 --> 19:52.463 [SPEAKER_03]: We writers, and I'm like, you're looking at us the wrong way. 19:52.483 --> 19:53.946 [SPEAKER_03]: The agent didn't get it wrong. 19:53.966 --> 19:56.590 [SPEAKER_03]: Like that was a specific vision Sarah brought in. 19:56.570 --> 20:01.637 [SPEAKER_03]: through her world perspective if they had been a different editor, a equally talented editor. 20:02.137 --> 20:05.261 [SPEAKER_03]: They might have brought a different vision and that wouldn't have been wrong or right. 20:05.341 --> 20:06.623 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, then she's not how it works. 20:06.643 --> 20:07.805 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're not solving a math. 20:08.105 --> 20:15.154 [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think, you know, to answer the big question of the sub-stack, our agents now that we publish, there's no. 20:15.214 --> 20:17.037 [SPEAKER_03]: And are they making themselves redundant? 20:17.117 --> 20:18.358 [SPEAKER_03]: I also don't think so. 20:18.599 --> 20:19.360 [SPEAKER_03]: I see it differently. 20:19.660 --> 20:21.843 [SPEAKER_03]: I think, but I definitely appreciate Anne's take. 20:22.944 --> 20:26.509 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I guess what I bump up against is, 20:27.603 --> 20:41.104 [SPEAKER_00]: In the long term view of many authors careers, they're going to go through many editors, they're going to go through multiple publishing houses, and in an ideal agent author situation, the agent is going to be the constant through it all. 20:41.484 --> 20:44.008 [SPEAKER_00]: And that means that the agent then has to, 20:44.309 --> 21:11.177 [SPEAKER_00]: help them develop the new ideas, you know, work on the option project that maybe doesn't sell or does sell and then move on to the next one and the that's what we're paid for like that that's our job and I don't think it replaces sure the publisher but I do think that I appreciate maybe her pointing out how much freaking work we do at towards the and theoretical she said there's a lot of threads I could keep pulling here but I'll end by underlining how much intensive work happens between 21:11.427 --> 21:14.853 [SPEAKER_00]: author agent especially when the goal is a big five contract. 21:14.873 --> 21:18.419 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where a book is given a form by definition, a generic one. 21:18.860 --> 21:22.125 [SPEAKER_00]: A manuscript can then be plopped into one of a dozen imprints. 21:22.506 --> 21:23.367 [SPEAKER_00]: Do we need that imprint? 21:23.387 --> 21:28.115 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously we do because that's the function of the publisher is to publish the book. 21:28.155 --> 21:31.861 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think what she ended up doing, maybe this was her intention, maybe it was. 21:31.902 --> 21:34.566 [SPEAKER_03]: It was highlighting a huge misconception people have. 21:34.546 --> 21:39.434 [SPEAKER_03]: which is that, oh, the editor edits, meaning only the editor edits, and that's true. 21:39.454 --> 21:44.802 [SPEAKER_03]: Agents are very editorial, not every agency is editorial, but many are, most that I know, in fact. 21:45.002 --> 21:51.653 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, when someone thinks of an agent, they might think of like a real estate agent, like, like, no one's going to help you build a house to sell the house. 21:51.853 --> 21:52.735 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that's not how it works. 21:52.755 --> 21:53.876 [SPEAKER_03]: But yes, we do. 21:54.397 --> 21:58.644 [SPEAKER_03]: We do a lot of editing, and I 100% appreciate her highlighting how much work we do. 21:58.964 --> 22:01.228 [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't think it's in substitution. 22:01.208 --> 22:13.547 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it is a response to a competitive market, but that just means that more work is needed, not that the work came all to the hands of, or went all to the hands of the agent of that make sense. 22:14.506 --> 22:17.290 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I'm still thinking about this a lot of a lot of thoughts. 22:18.332 --> 22:20.114 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that wouldn't kind of sound with me a while. 22:20.555 --> 22:23.079 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, obviously, we know how much work we do. 22:23.459 --> 22:25.623 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was really thinking like project by project. 22:25.703 --> 22:27.886 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you know, what is the lift that everybody does? 22:27.906 --> 22:29.188 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're actually completely different. 22:29.228 --> 22:34.316 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the list we do to get it to the book deal stage is very different than the lift. 22:34.656 --> 22:39.263 [SPEAKER_00]: That's developmental editor does, that the copy editor does, that the proof reader does. 22:39.283 --> 22:41.727 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? 22:41.747 --> 22:43.990 [SPEAKER_00]: There's just so many layers to this. 22:44.678 --> 22:49.564 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, folks, well, that is everything that we have for today is a short and sweet app. 22:49.724 --> 22:53.909 [SPEAKER_00]: CC is off to her next event, and we will see you guys all again next week. 22:55.651 --> 22:56.672 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, do you know where I'm about to go? 22:57.533 --> 22:58.214 [SPEAKER_03]: Where are you about to go? 22:58.515 --> 23:04.522 [SPEAKER_03]: To a cafe that has an amazing chocolate chip cookie to me with an acquiring editor, so we could eat chocolate chip cookies and Brighaderos. 23:04.602 --> 23:05.563 [SPEAKER_03]: I also have Brighaderos. 23:05.583 --> 23:06.504 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of course. 23:07.345 --> 23:09.207 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so, you know, lots of sugar. 23:09.247 --> 23:11.530 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's have sugar and see you for me. 23:11.763 --> 23:13.665 [SPEAKER_01]: I will see you next week. 23:13.705 --> 23:17.709 [SPEAKER_01]: CC Lera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. 23:18.190 --> 23:25.918 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshoman.com. 23:26.559 --> 23:35.188 [SPEAKER_01]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. 23:35.168 --> 23:40.981 [SPEAKER_01]: and the views expressed by Kali on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host. 23:41.341 --> 23:48.537 [SPEAKER_01]: They do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.