WEBVTT 00:00.031 --> 00:07.105 [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever felt guilty for wanting space, like needing a little distance from someone you love? 00:07.266 --> 00:21.735 [SPEAKER_00]: Means something is wrong with you or with the relationship, or maybe you've watched someone you're dating and thought, you know, why does their family seem to know everything about everything and have an opinion on all of it? 00:21.715 --> 00:25.824 [SPEAKER_00]: what you might be looking at in both cases is in measurement. 00:25.984 --> 00:40.855 [SPEAKER_00]: Today we're talking about what a measurement actually is, how to recognize it in yourself and in the people around you, and why the line between being close and being a meshed matters more the most people realize. 00:40.835 --> 00:52.672 [SPEAKER_00]: Today, I'm going to give you the signs across romantic relationships, family dynamics and friendships, including what to watch out for if you're dating someone from an enmeshed family. 00:53.092 --> 00:59.682 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I'll give you tools to start untangling it without blowing up the relationships that matter to you. 00:59.962 --> 01:01.324 [SPEAKER_00]: So stay tuned. 01:03.295 --> 01:17.415 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Relationships Made Easy Podcast, where I give you the exact steps to create connection, joy, and ease in all your relationships, whether it's with your partner, your family, your friends, or most importantly yourself. 01:18.156 --> 01:25.607 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dr. Abby Medkath, psychologist, bestselling author, TEDx, speaker, and the bossy Jewish mom you didn't know you needed. 01:25.587 --> 01:35.550 [SPEAKER_00]: Each week you'll get no nonsense, research back strategies, serve with humor and love, so you can stop second-guessing yourself and start having the relationships you deserve. 01:36.252 --> 01:42.185 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll always leave knowing exactly what to say and do to shift your relationships for the better. 01:42.706 --> 01:43.849 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's get to it. 01:45.753 --> 01:48.497 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the podcast in Meshment. 01:48.637 --> 01:50.400 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a good one today. 01:51.081 --> 02:04.661 [SPEAKER_00]: It comes up in so many ways, and I think it's one of those things that people don't talk about enough, because I don't know, we think we're judging people or something else, but it's not that. 02:04.721 --> 02:11.271 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about having an accurate description of something so that we can make good choices, make healthy choices around it. 02:11.251 --> 02:12.654 [SPEAKER_00]: So, what is a measurement? 02:12.754 --> 02:28.230 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a measurement is what happens, excuse me, overall, when the boundaries between two people or between members of a family become so blurred that individuality starts to disappear. 02:28.210 --> 02:30.673 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the same as being close. 02:31.034 --> 02:36.621 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the same as loving someone deeply or wanting to spend a lot of time with them, want to be really clear. 02:37.201 --> 02:51.940 [SPEAKER_00]: Enmeshment is a specific pattern, where one person's emotions, identity, and decisions become so fused with someone else's, that it's hard to tell but one person ends in the other person begins. 02:51.920 --> 03:01.748 [SPEAKER_00]: The term was first coined by my hero and mentor, family therapist, Salvanar Manusian, and it was coined in the 1970s. 03:01.909 --> 03:06.081 [SPEAKER_00]: And what a lot of people don't know I studied at the Manusian Institute in New York. 03:07.985 --> 03:31.596 [SPEAKER_00]: I, Salvador Mnuchin is known as the father of family therapy, so I, I feel really, it's kind of like saying you studied under Freud in, in my world, I, I, I definitely have a good pedigree this way, his son, damn Mnuchin and I work together many, many, many years 03:31.576 --> 03:42.729 [SPEAKER_00]: Sal, diminution, you described, he used this term Meshment to describe families with a level of involvement between the members. 03:43.349 --> 03:50.717 [SPEAKER_00]: Was so high that normal boundaries of independence and privacy had essentially collapsed really. 03:51.118 --> 03:53.020 [SPEAKER_00]: And in his, he has a framework about it. 03:54.161 --> 03:58.326 [SPEAKER_00]: Meshment sat at one extreme of a continuum. 03:58.711 --> 04:02.221 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the other end of the continuum was disengagement, right? 04:02.361 --> 04:11.708 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you read my relationships, uh, my boundaries made easy book, uh, if you've seen me and I'll include my little, um, 04:11.941 --> 04:16.927 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a little graphic, I'll include that in the blog on the website about this in the book. 04:16.947 --> 04:21.653 [SPEAKER_00]: I talk about this with, this is where I, you know, initially heard these terms. 04:21.713 --> 04:27.259 [SPEAKER_00]: I use it a little differently, but I talk about boundaries being on a continuum from thin to thick. 04:27.279 --> 04:36.210 [SPEAKER_00]: And on, you know, and I'll talk about that more today, but, you know, that, this is the first place I learned about that with the amazing Salvin omniscient. 04:37.169 --> 05:05.877 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's like two ends of this continuum and healthy relationships are somewhere in the middle right and they're not always the exact middle because sometimes our boundaries are a little thinner right like with my my partner my boundaries are going to be a little thinner than with my kids you know my kids aren't going to hear about what the mortgages or you don't even like our my sex life or a lot of other things right whereas my partner those boundaries would be very thinner around there's things that you know I wouldn't talk necessarily about. 05:05.857 --> 05:09.566 [SPEAKER_00]: the ins and outs of my drug addiction as a kid or it is a teenager. 05:09.606 --> 05:14.818 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, things like that with my children, we're obviously we'd be sharing many more details with my partners. 05:14.878 --> 05:21.975 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's not that it and I feel very close to my children, but there's certain things that were the boundaries are a little thicker. 05:21.955 --> 05:22.636 [SPEAKER_00]: Then other things. 05:22.716 --> 05:23.618 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously it worked. 05:23.638 --> 05:28.686 [SPEAKER_00]: The boundaries would be different than with my mom or someone else, you know, so boundaries are always shifting. 05:28.726 --> 05:44.991 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to think there's a perfect middle to boundaries because there's not each situation is a little different when it comes to how much you share and how how sort of close, you know, or distant, you might be, but either end of the spectrum is unhealthy. 05:45.031 --> 05:46.394 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I'll talk about that more in a minute. 05:46.854 --> 05:47.355 [SPEAKER_00]: So, 05:48.601 --> 05:58.653 [SPEAKER_00]: because I've really been teaching this version, you know, this continuum for years, like decades now. 05:59.554 --> 06:11.089 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, I want you to think about thin and mesh boundaries on one side and then thick, emotionally distant boundaries on the other side, right? 06:11.129 --> 06:18.017 [SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is that both extremes are fear-based and both are equally unhealthy. 06:17.997 --> 06:22.764 [SPEAKER_00]: So, if you call your dad, sir, that's a pretty emotional, distant thick boundary. 06:23.244 --> 06:37.244 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you knew, yeah, how much the mortgage payment was at home when you were five, and maybe you had responsibilities you shouldn't have had when you were eight, you know, that kind of thing, then the right, it's two thin or two thick, the boundaries. 06:37.705 --> 06:45.135 [SPEAKER_00]: So, understanding where you fall on that spectrum, to me is the first step to changing it, to figuring out where you are, right? 06:46.482 --> 06:50.067 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me talk more about that send-to-thick boundary, kind of continuum. 06:50.528 --> 06:53.532 [SPEAKER_00]: So when boundaries are too thin, you're in master, okay? 06:53.913 --> 06:56.917 [SPEAKER_00]: When they're too thick, you get emotionally cut off. 06:57.578 --> 07:03.126 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, neither extreme is healthy, and I think this is what surprises most people. 07:03.607 --> 07:09.756 [SPEAKER_00]: This is two sides of the same coin, the same coin, so I say coin, coin. 07:09.736 --> 07:11.338 [SPEAKER_00]: both are driven by fear. 07:12.159 --> 07:17.727 [SPEAKER_00]: On the thin side, the mesh side, you're essentially saying, I am my relationship. 07:18.368 --> 07:20.371 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I am whatever this relationship is. 07:20.451 --> 07:26.680 [SPEAKER_00]: Your emotional well being rises and falls entirely on what the other person is doing or feeling. 07:27.421 --> 07:32.588 [SPEAKER_00]: On the thick side, you've gone so far on the other direction that really walled yourself off. 07:32.628 --> 07:34.090 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want anybody in. 07:34.070 --> 07:50.188 [SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly, interestingly, I see people swing from one extreme to the other all the time, especially in moments of disappointment, conflict, anger or whatever someone who's been enmeshed and compliant. 07:50.168 --> 07:55.394 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen them suddenly slam the door entirely when they feel like they've lost control, right? 07:55.534 --> 07:57.457 [SPEAKER_00]: So they go from have, you know, that's not a boundary. 07:57.477 --> 07:58.458 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a wall, my people. 07:59.199 --> 08:10.993 [SPEAKER_00]: The goal, again, is to live somewhere in the middle of that continuum, where you can be genuinely close, genuinely vulnerable, and genuinely connected without losing yourself in the process, right? 08:12.435 --> 08:14.898 [SPEAKER_00]: Boundaries from that center place, they come from love. 08:15.118 --> 08:18.302 [SPEAKER_00]: They're about keeping people in, not keeping 08:19.497 --> 08:24.064 [SPEAKER_00]: Enmeshment, even when it looks like love, right, is fear-based. 08:24.244 --> 08:26.387 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about managing anxiety. 08:26.868 --> 08:28.690 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not creating real connection. 08:28.971 --> 08:34.979 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that most that enmeshment side, the thin thin boundaries is all about high anxiety. 08:35.239 --> 08:39.285 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I've ever met anyone who has low anxiety who's enmeshed. 08:39.305 --> 08:40.527 [SPEAKER_00]: I just haven't. 08:41.536 --> 08:46.602 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about how in measurement is different from codependency, because that's a question I get a lot. 08:46.622 --> 08:47.984 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a fair one, right? 08:48.064 --> 08:58.616 [SPEAKER_00]: Because the two concepts, certainly overlap significantly, codependency is about depending on something outside of yourself. 08:58.817 --> 09:05.244 [SPEAKER_00]: Usually another person's behavior or approval to provide your sense of well-being. 09:05.284 --> 09:08.488 [SPEAKER_00]: It's relying on something outside yourself for your well-being. 09:09.650 --> 09:13.015 [SPEAKER_00]: In measurement is the, I don't want to say this. 09:13.375 --> 09:18.863 [SPEAKER_00]: A measurement is the relational structure that often makes codependency possible. 09:18.944 --> 09:20.626 [SPEAKER_00]: Think, think of it this way. 09:20.987 --> 09:31.362 [SPEAKER_00]: In measurement is the blurring of boundaries between two people, codependency is one of the things that can grow out of that blurring. 09:32.584 --> 09:33.565 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I said that really well. 09:34.591 --> 09:35.913 [SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what it is. 09:36.775 --> 09:42.165 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can be in an in-meshed family system and not be codependent in every relationship you're in. 09:43.227 --> 09:49.899 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can have codependent tendencies without being in a classical in-mesh relationship, right? 09:49.939 --> 09:56.751 [SPEAKER_00]: But they frequently show up together and certainly both are rooted in the same 09:56.900 --> 09:58.925 [SPEAKER_00]: fear-based soil shall we say. 09:58.985 --> 10:13.002 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever felt like another person's bad mood was somehow your fault to fix or you felt guilty for having a different opinion from a family member, you know, you've experienced this overlap that I'm talking about, right? 10:13.336 --> 10:21.846 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've talked about codependency before, you know, here on the podcast and have discussed more recently the difference between codependency and compassion. 10:21.886 --> 10:34.942 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not going to rehash all of that here, you know, what I want you to understand today is that investment is its own distinct pattern that's really worth understanding even, you know, even if the two are related. 10:35.102 --> 10:35.563 [SPEAKER_00]: So. 10:35.543 --> 11:01.922 [SPEAKER_00]: I will link to the past episodes on Codependency in the blog, and again, and I say this every time, for the new folks, any time I mentioned the research, any kind of research, or any, there's a great free download for today, any time I mentioned that, any time I mentioned, you know, a past episode, all that can be found below the video if you're watching on YouTube, and on my website, AbbieMekafter.com, just go to this episode. 11:01.902 --> 11:02.845 [SPEAKER_00]: all the things are there. 11:02.945 --> 11:07.578 [SPEAKER_00]: And the blog is a fully written blog, not a transcript, so that you can use it as notes. 11:07.618 --> 11:08.581 [SPEAKER_00]: You can copy and paste. 11:08.601 --> 11:12.532 [SPEAKER_00]: You can go back and kind of refresh your memory without having to listen to an entire episode again. 11:12.672 --> 11:16.603 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though I know you love listening to the sound of my melodic voice, but just in case. 11:17.208 --> 11:30.527 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about, and I'm going to talk about different kinds of relationships today, and measurement shows up in all kinds of different ways, but I want to talk about the signs that you're in and in a meshed romantic relationship right now because that's what most people talk to me about. 11:31.729 --> 11:45.308 [SPEAKER_00]: So in romantic relationships, I think a measurement often gets mistaken for like deep love or intense connection early on, or maybe I'll say especially early on. 11:45.440 --> 11:49.206 [SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of fusion you feel can feel really exciting. 11:49.306 --> 11:53.713 [SPEAKER_00]: But over time, it really accrates anxiety, resentment. 11:54.514 --> 12:01.585 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for a lot of people, this sort of creeping sense that you've kind of lost yourself somewhere along the way. 12:01.926 --> 12:05.551 [SPEAKER_00]: I worked with a couple, kind of a few years ago now. 12:06.092 --> 12:09.878 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were genuinely devoted to each other, 12:10.077 --> 12:14.864 [SPEAKER_00]: But the woman, the wife came in saying she felt like she was disappearing. 12:14.904 --> 12:15.745 [SPEAKER_00]: Those were her words. 12:15.966 --> 12:21.154 [SPEAKER_00]: She couldn't articulate exactly what was wrong because nothing was wrong in the conventional sense. 12:22.616 --> 12:23.858 [SPEAKER_00]: Her partner wasn't on kind. 12:23.898 --> 12:28.845 [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't unfaithful, but she'd notice that she's slowly stopped having opinions. 12:28.825 --> 12:30.768 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, you know, she wanted typhoon. 12:30.848 --> 12:39.042 [SPEAKER_00]: She wanted typhoon when he, when he was stressed out about work, she was stressed out about about his work or just stressed out when he thought a movie was bad. 12:39.122 --> 12:41.787 [SPEAKER_00]: She, you know, she decided she hadn't liked it either. 12:41.827 --> 12:45.653 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if she walked out of it, the theater thinking it was okay. 12:45.633 --> 12:53.701 [SPEAKER_00]: She sort of lost her own inner compass entirely, and she really hadn't noticed it was happening along the way. 12:53.962 --> 12:56.825 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's, it's stuff like that that I see. 12:56.885 --> 13:00.449 [SPEAKER_00]: I think investment is very insidious. 13:00.589 --> 13:03.892 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very quiet, often, and it really can creep in. 13:03.912 --> 13:13.362 [SPEAKER_00]: I had another client who, not that long ago, they had, they had twins. 13:14.084 --> 13:20.633 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a lot, you know, there was a lot of issues with the babies when the birth happened, right? 13:20.693 --> 13:25.579 [SPEAKER_00]: So she had a plan C section and then suddenly they had to go really quick to the hospital. 13:25.599 --> 13:29.945 [SPEAKER_00]: It was before the plan C and you know, it was a little touch and go there for a minute. 13:30.025 --> 13:31.247 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a little scary for her. 13:31.267 --> 13:35.012 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a little scared for the babies. 13:35.313 --> 13:45.165 [SPEAKER_00]: But everything sort of worked out they were in the hospital about, um, I'd say the babies ended up being in the hospital a few weeks, but after it was actually I know it was eight days. 13:45.285 --> 13:59.683 [SPEAKER_00]: So on the eight eight days, they were together in the hospital and they hadn't told anybody, she and her partner hadn't told the family yet, and especially she didn't want to tell her family yet because his family, his mother was 13:59.663 --> 14:00.824 [SPEAKER_00]: They were enmeshed. 14:00.864 --> 14:01.805 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot. 14:01.825 --> 14:03.507 [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have that language for it. 14:03.527 --> 14:08.673 [SPEAKER_00]: Then she didn't exactly, but there was a lot of really poor boundaries between her husband and his mom. 14:09.173 --> 14:11.416 [SPEAKER_00]: And she just knew this woman was going to show up. 14:11.596 --> 14:13.178 [SPEAKER_00]: They were just trying to survive. 14:13.258 --> 14:14.319 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they were scared. 14:14.439 --> 14:15.120 [SPEAKER_00]: It's terrifying. 14:15.140 --> 14:16.281 [SPEAKER_00]: These are the first kids. 14:16.822 --> 14:18.043 [SPEAKER_00]: It was all not good. 14:18.063 --> 14:19.345 [SPEAKER_00]: And she was trying to recover. 14:19.925 --> 14:21.867 [SPEAKER_00]: So her best friend was there. 14:22.088 --> 14:25.992 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the only person that knew about everything that was going on. 14:26.427 --> 14:29.370 [SPEAKER_00]: And so anyway, after eight days, they tell the mom. 14:29.450 --> 14:31.873 [SPEAKER_00]: They let them, they tell everybody. 14:31.933 --> 14:34.796 [SPEAKER_00]: They call everybody, they said, hey, this is what's been happening. 14:35.377 --> 14:37.079 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the mom got so upset. 14:37.620 --> 14:39.582 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody else got upset just for the record. 14:39.622 --> 14:41.324 [SPEAKER_00]: People, I mean, people were a little disappointed. 14:41.344 --> 14:43.727 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, oh, I'm sorry, they didn't call, you know, some people were. 14:44.608 --> 14:47.010 [SPEAKER_00]: But most people, everybody really understood. 14:47.050 --> 14:49.373 [SPEAKER_00]: They're, you know, because they said, we were just really scared. 14:49.433 --> 14:51.135 [SPEAKER_00]: We needed to like, hunker down. 14:51.115 --> 14:58.562 [SPEAKER_00]: We needed to focus and we didn't want a bunch of opinions coming in because they had to make some health decisions with the babies and themselves and all that. 14:58.623 --> 15:00.670 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to get into all that, it doesn't matter. 15:00.768 --> 15:07.141 [SPEAKER_00]: But this husband's mom got furious, angry angry, how dare you? 15:07.381 --> 15:21.449 [SPEAKER_00]: And now once then wanted nothing to do, didn't want to come help with the kids, didn't want to come, didn't want to be part of this, was so upset that they hadn't called her and was, you know, this is a side of investment. 15:21.509 --> 15:23.012 [SPEAKER_00]: That's another good one. 15:22.992 --> 15:23.753 [SPEAKER_00]: outraged. 15:23.893 --> 15:35.973 [SPEAKER_00]: She was outraged, literally with the word she used, um, that they and literally said this had the nerve to not call her in contact her, at least her even if they didn't tell everybody else. 15:36.033 --> 15:37.074 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what she said. 15:37.094 --> 15:38.076 [SPEAKER_00]: She said these words to them. 15:39.138 --> 15:39.398 [SPEAKER_00]: And 15:40.610 --> 16:03.192 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this was the very reason they didn't do it, and she was the only reason they didn't tell anybody else because my, you know, the, the wife's parents would have been very supportive and would have just been like whatever you need let us know, you know, every, they pretty much had everybody else have very positive, you know, supportive at the very least feedback except this mom, which is the whole reason they did it. 16:03.172 --> 16:14.591 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's another example of how a measurement shows up, someone who thinks they have rights in your relationship, who's outraged, that you don't share every little detail as it's happening in real time, that kind of stuff. 16:15.233 --> 16:18.638 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, but here are the signs to watch for in a romantic relationship. 16:18.658 --> 16:21.383 [SPEAKER_00]: These are the things I would tell you too. 16:21.363 --> 16:47.421 [SPEAKER_00]: look out for the most and you know you feel responsible for your partners emotional state even when you had nothing to do with causing it so it would be here with the mother of that you know non romantic relationship I guess these are probably signs of any any relationship but definitely in romance and I'll try to differentiate other relationships in a minute but you might be relating to anything I say you know with your own mother or with a friend or somewhere else. 16:47.401 --> 16:49.924 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't relax until they're okay. 16:50.184 --> 16:52.227 [SPEAKER_00]: Their mood is essentially your mood. 16:52.527 --> 16:53.428 [SPEAKER_00]: That's another symptom. 16:54.209 --> 17:05.123 [SPEAKER_00]: You feel guilty when you do something independently, whether that's seeing a friend alone, pursuing a hobby, making a decision without checking in first. 17:06.004 --> 17:09.308 [SPEAKER_00]: Another symptom is there's very little me in the relationship. 17:09.368 --> 17:13.493 [SPEAKER_00]: Everything is we, including maybe friendships, 17:14.519 --> 17:17.990 [SPEAKER_00]: which are either shared or maybe even quietly dropped. 17:19.977 --> 17:26.638 [SPEAKER_00]: You might also have stopped having opinions that differ from theirs or you've noticed yourself abandoning your own views to avoid tension. 17:27.783 --> 17:40.522 [SPEAKER_00]: trying to think another symptom is conflict or even like a mild disapproval from your partner anything like that would trigger a level of anxiety that feels disproportionate to the situation. 17:40.562 --> 17:42.305 [SPEAKER_00]: That can be another one. 17:42.785 --> 17:48.694 [SPEAKER_00]: You feel the need to know where they are and what they're doing at all times and the same goes with them with you and it doesn't 17:49.687 --> 17:58.088 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't feel like loving a tentadness, it feels like surveillance, you know, which is really usually what it is, all of those are things that I want you to watch out for. 17:58.148 --> 18:00.895 [SPEAKER_00]: So, well, let me. 18:01.651 --> 18:05.335 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me also talk then about signs you're in in a meshed family system, right? 18:05.855 --> 18:09.859 [SPEAKER_00]: Because family investment is where this pattern most often originates. 18:10.019 --> 18:16.125 [SPEAKER_00]: If you grew up in a meshed family, it can be genuinely hard, obviously to recognize, because it was your normal. 18:16.706 --> 18:22.412 [SPEAKER_00]: And it often looks like love from the inside, even when it's costing you something significant, okay? 18:22.852 --> 18:26.916 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, like this mother situation, I just mentioned. 18:26.896 --> 18:42.525 [SPEAKER_00]: So, signs of family and measurement can include anything I just said in a romantic relationship, but also probably what you'll see is that as an adult, you'll still seek a parent's approval before making significant decisions, or you feel intense guilt when you don't. 18:44.188 --> 18:45.831 [SPEAKER_00]: Having a different opinion from your family. 18:46.031 --> 18:50.119 [SPEAKER_00]: It maybe feels dangerous or disloyal or just not allowed. 18:50.521 --> 18:57.493 [SPEAKER_00]: Another sign would be a parent, treat your independent choices, your career, your partner. 18:58.064 --> 19:03.129 [SPEAKER_00]: your city of residents as as kind of personal front a front to them like this was, right? 19:03.149 --> 19:15.840 [SPEAKER_00]: Like some sort of personal front that you made some sort of decision, maybe you I've definitely have had clients who left their house before they were married, and that was not allowed in this family, or you know, chose to live in a different city. 19:15.880 --> 19:28.071 [SPEAKER_00]: I've had this a few times where I had a client who moved away from where their family was, but then was expected to come home for everything, and they were far. 19:28.051 --> 19:50.768 [SPEAKER_00]: And they would get hear things like, well, you're the one who chose to move away, so you still have to be here to help with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah 19:50.900 --> 20:03.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, oh, and a biggie, of course, is there's no secrets allowed in the family, like everyone's business is everyone else's business and privacy feels like rejection that that's what comes up. 20:05.139 --> 20:18.898 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, maybe you find it almost impossible to say no to a family member without enormous guilt, even when the request is unreasonable, like this one that the one I just mentioned, totally unreasonable, yet my client was feeling really guilty. 20:20.448 --> 20:33.645 [SPEAKER_00]: So, family member speak for each other, make decisions for each other, or expect to have a vote in each and each other's major life choices well into adulthood, okay? 20:34.586 --> 20:38.651 [SPEAKER_00]: You see or speak to one another quite frequently, sometimes maybe multiple times a day. 20:38.711 --> 20:41.355 [SPEAKER_00]: There are lots of, like, what do I see? 20:41.395 --> 20:46.882 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, family vacations and assumptions at certain times will be spent together, always, always, always. 20:46.982 --> 20:49.645 [SPEAKER_00]: And when that doesn't happen, there's tremendous guilt. 20:49.810 --> 20:55.922 [SPEAKER_00]: anger cutting off the cold shoulder all that kind of stuff like again like we just saw this mom. 20:56.342 --> 21:06.722 [SPEAKER_00]: I've had that I've shared here before I had a client who every year the entire family would come to her home because she and her husband had 21:06.702 --> 21:10.669 [SPEAKER_00]: money had had made more money than a lot of other people in the family that had a big huge home. 21:11.310 --> 21:20.585 [SPEAKER_00]: And every Christmas, every Christmas, the entire family would come in with all of their so the parents, the siblings, the family, you know, spouses, their kids. 21:21.326 --> 21:27.917 [SPEAKER_00]: And my client was expected to host everything, to, you know, first of all she had a they paid for everything. 21:27.897 --> 21:28.458 [SPEAKER_00]: everything. 21:28.598 --> 21:31.424 [SPEAKER_00]: They set up all of the things to do, right? 21:31.625 --> 21:36.134 [SPEAKER_00]: All the movie, you know, they, like, she became, you know, the whole thing for the whole family. 21:36.595 --> 21:41.184 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were just, they just, it was assumed, and it was how it was, and that's what had happened. 21:41.886 --> 21:45.433 [SPEAKER_00]: And one, you know, she hated it. 21:45.413 --> 21:47.937 [SPEAKER_00]: just would dread Christmas every year. 21:47.997 --> 21:58.493 [SPEAKER_00]: She hated that she and the kids couldn't have their own so traditions because so many of the traditions were the parents' traditions that they then were like doing here like, oh, we have to have the slave ride. 21:58.514 --> 21:59.335 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to have this. 21:59.395 --> 22:00.096 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to have that. 22:00.116 --> 22:01.899 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to make cookies for the week before. 22:01.919 --> 22:04.603 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to like all the half-dos, right? 22:04.583 --> 22:10.536 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she would have to literally, or she felt she had to create all these things and schedule all these things and do all these things. 22:10.576 --> 22:12.580 [SPEAKER_00]: It would take her months to put this thing together. 22:12.621 --> 22:13.923 [SPEAKER_00]: And she worked. 22:14.004 --> 22:16.208 [SPEAKER_00]: She had a full-time job in her own children. 22:16.409 --> 22:18.273 [SPEAKER_00]: Anner husband and he worked full-time. 22:18.573 --> 22:22.963 [SPEAKER_00]: It was really, it wasn't even the money so much as all the craziness going into it. 22:22.943 --> 22:28.150 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and we worked together, she and I, and I, first I was like, could you get an assistant to do all this instead of you? 22:28.190 --> 22:29.052 [SPEAKER_00]: Would that be easier? 22:29.132 --> 22:31.074 [SPEAKER_00]: Do that, but she was so resentful about it. 22:31.215 --> 22:33.778 [SPEAKER_00]: No one ever offered to, to schedule anything. 22:33.838 --> 22:36.502 [SPEAKER_00]: No one ever offered a penny towards any of the expenses. 22:36.582 --> 22:38.545 [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't have taken it, but, you know, you should offer. 22:38.585 --> 22:40.868 [SPEAKER_00]: No one ever, 22:40.848 --> 22:48.004 [SPEAKER_00]: Did anything, not a finger, not if they were all expected to be picked up at the airport, they would get upset if she sent a driver. 22:48.044 --> 22:51.472 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody expected like a personal trip from the airport. 22:51.492 --> 22:52.193 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was crazy. 22:52.614 --> 22:56.443 [SPEAKER_00]: So one year we, I had her in August. 22:56.423 --> 23:20.710 [SPEAKER_00]: Let the family know via email and then personal follow up that that year they were going to go away all she ever wanted to do was go away for Christmas that week she wanted to take kids and like go to a tropical island and spend a week away just the family that's what she wanted to do and any make a long story short or this is a long story, but it's not so short, but do you see where I'm going can you imagine the family was incensed. 23:20.690 --> 23:21.773 [SPEAKER_00]: in sensed. 23:22.334 --> 23:24.821 [SPEAKER_00]: She was cut off, nobody wanted to talk to her. 23:25.362 --> 23:31.879 [SPEAKER_00]: She, I mean, the years and years and years of generosity, the years and years and years of bending over backwards, gone, gone. 23:32.741 --> 23:36.370 [SPEAKER_00]: No appreciation, no gratitude, nothing. 23:36.350 --> 23:40.556 [SPEAKER_00]: gave them months of notice and there are only responses where what are we supposed to do? 23:40.596 --> 23:41.857 [SPEAKER_00]: This is terrible. 23:42.138 --> 23:43.159 [SPEAKER_00]: You're so selfish. 23:43.259 --> 23:47.104 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all she heard was about how selfish and horrible human she was. 23:47.204 --> 23:54.214 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine when all she's been doing was giving giving giving and I'm sure you can imagine because some of you listening right now are going oh my god that's me and my family. 23:54.574 --> 23:56.817 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah that's a that's a that's an MS family. 23:57.298 --> 23:58.179 [SPEAKER_00]: That's an MS family. 23:59.741 --> 24:05.749 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about 24:05.915 --> 24:06.656 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot to say. 24:06.776 --> 24:07.718 [SPEAKER_00]: Say that 10 times faster. 24:08.579 --> 24:11.263 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, friendships can become a mesh too. 24:11.704 --> 24:19.856 [SPEAKER_00]: And, and I think this one tends to sneak up on people because healthy friendships are supposed to involve right mutual care, investment. 24:21.058 --> 24:27.468 [SPEAKER_00]: The differences that in meshed friendships start to require you to disappear a little in order to maintain them. 24:27.768 --> 24:28.890 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how you sort of know. 24:29.631 --> 24:33.998 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I had a different client, another client who came to me because she felt 24:34.568 --> 24:43.768 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, literally it's the reason she saw out therapy was because she felt exhausted in a close friendship and didn't know why her friend wasn't mean 24:43.917 --> 24:50.823 [SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't using her in any way, but my client had realized that she'd started dreading when this friend called her. 24:51.324 --> 24:55.488 [SPEAKER_00]: When the friend was having a hard week, my client's whole week went sideways with it. 24:56.108 --> 25:02.174 [SPEAKER_00]: She stopped making plans with other people without checking if her friend was available or okay with it. 25:02.434 --> 25:03.355 [SPEAKER_00]: That started happening. 25:03.775 --> 25:09.321 [SPEAKER_00]: She'd noticed herself editing what she said and felt to avoid kind of rocking the boat with this friend. 25:09.901 --> 25:11.983 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's 25:11.963 --> 25:14.607 [SPEAKER_00]: That is an measurement in a friendship, all those things. 25:14.667 --> 25:17.771 [SPEAKER_00]: So the signs, again, are things, and they're all similar, right? 25:20.355 --> 25:26.804 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a sign would be like one friend's mood or crisis dictates the emotional tone for everyone in the friendship. 25:27.865 --> 25:33.513 [SPEAKER_00]: You feel guilty making plans with other people, especially if it doesn't include this friend, okay? 25:34.174 --> 25:35.276 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can't have other friends. 25:36.558 --> 25:40.283 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't make decisions, even small ones without checking in with that person first. 25:40.921 --> 25:48.906 [SPEAKER_00]: There's an unspoken rule that loyalty means total availability and any time like and stepping back in any way feels like a betrayal. 25:49.291 --> 25:56.419 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so, and I've seen this a lot of had people who like this woman was married with kids, and this friend who was draining her was single. 25:57.420 --> 26:01.825 [SPEAKER_00]: She had a boyfriend, but she wasn't like, they weren't living together. 26:01.925 --> 26:03.767 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, she had a long-term boyfriend, they didn't live together. 26:04.148 --> 26:05.509 [SPEAKER_00]: They had a long-distance relationship. 26:05.609 --> 26:16.902 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, this friend was like, I said to her, she's treating you like a wife, not like a friend, you know, and that's part of the problem, and not a good wife, like a slave kind of wife. 26:16.882 --> 26:27.431 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you've lost other friendships or interests because this one relationship has kind of this one friendship is gradually taking up all the relational space right all of those things. 26:28.494 --> 26:29.195 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 26:29.216 --> 26:29.777 [SPEAKER_00]: And then. 26:31.428 --> 26:37.659 [SPEAKER_00]: So all of these things, again, I'm saying all this, so you can have some awareness that something you've had might be a measurement, you didn't realize it. 26:38.441 --> 26:40.064 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's some warning signs. 26:40.164 --> 26:42.408 [SPEAKER_00]: You're dating someone from an MS family. 26:42.568 --> 26:51.063 [SPEAKER_00]: And this one, I don't think it's talked about enough, and it matters enormously if you're in or considering a serious relationship. 26:51.144 --> 26:55.832 [SPEAKER_00]: When your partner comes from an MS family system, you're not just dating them. 26:55.812 --> 27:13.129 [SPEAKER_00]: You're dealing with the entire dynamic that they were raised in, and if they haven't done the work to differentiate from it, that system is going to show up in your relationship in very concrete ways, like this other client I have, who's, you know, had these twins and that this mother is crazy. 27:14.105 --> 27:17.269 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen this derail, I can't tell you countless relationships. 27:17.450 --> 27:22.637 [SPEAKER_00]: Not because anyone is a bad person, but because no one saw a coming or knew how to name it. 27:23.318 --> 27:25.741 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so again, things to look for. 27:25.781 --> 27:37.277 [SPEAKER_00]: Their family has strong, often maybe unspoken opinions about who they should be with, and those opinions carry real weight and their decision-making, even as an adult, you'll see that. 27:37.257 --> 27:46.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, a parent who calls or texts constantly and your partner feels unable to create any limit around it without enormous guilt or doesn't even see it as an issue. 27:46.608 --> 28:00.143 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, important relationship decisions, what, you know, where you'll live, where whether or not to have children, major financial choices all go through their family of origin before they're finalized with you, big problem. 28:01.456 --> 28:11.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, you get the sense that any conflict between you and a family member will be resolved in the family members favor, because your partner doesn't have the tools to advocate for the relationship. 28:12.138 --> 28:14.002 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the biggest biggest red flag. 28:15.124 --> 28:21.237 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, oh, family members know details about your relationship that you consider private because your partner shares everything with them. 28:22.938 --> 28:32.648 [SPEAKER_00]: your partner becomes disregulated, guilty, or visibly anxious around any family visit, or calls, and that disregulation spills into your dynamic. 28:32.948 --> 28:33.669 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a problem. 28:35.510 --> 28:51.426 [SPEAKER_00]: Another issue, like, when you raise concerns about the family dynamic, your partner defends it like fiercely or shuts it down entirely, because the investment is so normalized, they can't see it, so, or at least see it yet. 28:52.368 --> 28:57.585 [SPEAKER_00]: So they don't know how to even talk to you about it and none of this means the relationship is doomed. 28:57.906 --> 29:04.808 [SPEAKER_00]: I do want to say that but it does mean that both of you need to be more clear ride about what's happening and whether you're partner. 29:05.260 --> 29:10.266 [SPEAKER_00]: has the willingness to do the differentiation work that healthy partnership requires. 29:10.506 --> 29:12.168 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really where things are at. 29:12.549 --> 29:20.698 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm actually going to give you some, I'm going to give you some overall tips in a minute, but I want to give you three tips if you've already recognized this in this relationship, right? 29:20.738 --> 29:27.106 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've already recognized the relationship in that list, I just gave and you're wondering what to do actually do about it. 29:27.146 --> 29:32.112 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to give you three quick tips to start before I get into the big tips. 29:32.092 --> 29:35.917 [SPEAKER_00]: So, tip number one is to name what you're seeing before you try to change it. 29:36.018 --> 29:47.033 [SPEAKER_00]: Before any conversation about the family dynamic, before that can go anywhere, or be useful, your partner needs to be able to see it, and that's a process, not a moment. 29:47.554 --> 29:55.585 [SPEAKER_00]: So, pointing it out directly and early, especially when they're feeling defensive, usually backfires, and you end up looking like the problem. 29:55.565 --> 30:04.015 [SPEAKER_00]: So instead start by naming your own experience, experience that's happening without framing it as an indictment of their family. 30:04.215 --> 30:05.116 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you have to do. 30:05.236 --> 30:11.584 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we don't get to make decisions together before they're run by your mom and that's hard for me. 30:12.485 --> 30:15.729 [SPEAKER_00]: That lands very differently than your family is a meshed. 30:15.749 --> 30:18.332 [SPEAKER_00]: You're too close to your mom and it's affecting us. 30:18.515 --> 30:19.156 [SPEAKER_00]: see the difference? 30:19.236 --> 30:20.238 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 30:20.359 --> 30:35.308 [SPEAKER_00]: So your goal in the early conversations and again, remember it's plural, multiple conversations, the goal is to make it safe for them to look at what's happening, not to convince them of something they're not ready to see, but just to be open to looking. 30:35.879 --> 30:39.763 [SPEAKER_00]: Tip number two is to decide what you can and can't tolerate and be honest about it. 30:39.843 --> 30:47.011 [SPEAKER_00]: This is where a lot of people avoid doing the real work because it requires honesty that feels uncomfortable. 30:47.432 --> 30:51.416 [SPEAKER_00]: You need to get clear on what's actually workable for you and what isn't. 30:51.617 --> 30:57.623 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it workable that your partner talks to their parent daily as long as the content of your relationship stays private? 30:57.663 --> 31:05.532 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it workable that holidays are a little complicated as long as major decisions between 31:05.782 --> 31:13.484 [SPEAKER_00]: right, or is the level of emeshments so pervasive that there's generally no room for your relationship to develop on its, you know, its own identity. 31:14.887 --> 31:16.211 [SPEAKER_00]: These aren't rhetorical questions. 31:16.251 --> 31:20.483 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a question as you need to actually answer because 31:20.800 --> 31:28.391 [SPEAKER_00]: staying in the relationship without answering them is how you end up resentful three years for now, without knowing quite why. 31:29.112 --> 31:34.440 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, this isn't about it's wrong what your partner is doing and it's right what you're doing. 31:34.600 --> 31:37.584 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not wrong or right. 31:37.644 --> 31:38.826 [SPEAKER_00]: It just is. 31:38.806 --> 31:41.913 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't think it's very healthy, but you know, it's not wrong. 31:41.933 --> 31:42.213 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 31:42.554 --> 31:51.493 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you can just say what your preferences, I'm telling you it changes the game, you know, my preferences that you don't share things with your family that it stays between the two of us. 31:52.395 --> 31:55.903 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want, if you have the best friend you want to talk to things about with. 31:56.137 --> 31:58.360 [SPEAKER_00]: therapist, I'm okay with that, that's it. 31:58.860 --> 32:09.033 [SPEAKER_00]: My preference is that you don't share what's going on between us with anybody, that if you have something to say to me, you say to me and we work it out together and or you get one therapist, one best friend, you know, you can do it that way. 32:09.293 --> 32:17.723 [SPEAKER_00]: So don't label, you know, you're in that, you talked to your mom too much, you talked to your dad too much, that's not where we're going here, it's not too anything, it just is. 32:17.703 --> 32:34.762 [SPEAKER_00]: But you can say, you know, I'm not comfortable with how often, or the, I'm not comfortable with the fact that we can't leave the house on Sundays until you talk to your mom in the morning for an hour, you know, like or something like you just need to like for now on I'll not be planning things with you on Sunday that's fine. 32:34.782 --> 32:35.563 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to go talk to her. 32:35.683 --> 32:42.090 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go do x y and z like you need to decide you're not a victim here in the relationship, but you have to have eyes wide open. 32:42.340 --> 32:44.909 [SPEAKER_00]: Tip number three is to keep your own life intact. 32:45.772 --> 32:53.920 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the most common things I see when someone is in a relationship with a person from an image family system is that the 32:55.098 --> 32:59.762 [SPEAKER_00]: that person, the outside, or I will call them, slowly starts shrinking too. 32:59.822 --> 33:05.107 [SPEAKER_00]: They stop advocating for their own needs, because every attempt creates conflict, right? 33:05.447 --> 33:11.112 [SPEAKER_00]: They start organizing their life around that family's calendar and that family's preferences. 33:11.653 --> 33:14.536 [SPEAKER_00]: And they lose their own sense of what they want. 33:14.676 --> 33:15.977 [SPEAKER_00]: So don't let that happen. 33:16.037 --> 33:25.105 [SPEAKER_00]: Your differentiation, your ability to stick rounded in who you are and what you need is not a threat 33:25.085 --> 33:29.770 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's the healthiest thing you can bring to it, right? 33:29.790 --> 33:45.906 [SPEAKER_00]: A partner who models what it looks like to be a full, boundary, self-possessed person is sometimes, I think, dare I say, almost always, the most powerful catalyst for change in someone who was never given permission to be one. 33:47.367 --> 33:48.388 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is the way to go. 33:48.408 --> 33:53.033 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so why does a measurement happen? 33:53.603 --> 33:56.146 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a, I'm sure a natural question you're asking right now. 33:57.167 --> 34:01.673 [SPEAKER_00]: Enmeshment almost always has its roots in anxiety and attachment, right? 34:01.793 --> 34:22.918 [SPEAKER_00]: When, when caregivers are anxious, intrusive, or emotionally dependent on their children, those children learn that their job is to manage the emotional environment around them, not to develop their own, I know, it's like crazy, right? 34:24.333 --> 34:34.423 [SPEAKER_00]: that child's sense of self becomes organized around the needs and moods of others rather than around their own internal experience. 34:34.803 --> 34:38.987 [SPEAKER_00]: And you might really be relating to this right now in huge ways and I have to blow my nose. 34:41.910 --> 34:42.931 [SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm blowing my nose right here. 34:43.712 --> 34:44.933 [SPEAKER_00]: No, they're not going to edit it out. 34:45.333 --> 34:45.934 [SPEAKER_00]: You can handle it. 34:46.054 --> 34:46.574 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a second. 34:46.875 --> 34:48.496 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 34:48.516 --> 34:50.458 [SPEAKER_00]: So in attachment terms, 34:51.755 --> 34:56.762 [SPEAKER_00]: And measurement is very closely linked to anxious attachment, right? 34:56.862 --> 35:07.116 [SPEAKER_00]: That the pattern that develops when a caregiver is inconsistent, you know, sometimes warm and available, uh, sometimes emotionally overwhelming or intrusive. 35:07.176 --> 35:14.826 [SPEAKER_00]: That kid, that child learns that closeness is unpredictable, and that their job is to stay hyper-vigilant. 35:14.806 --> 35:19.015 [SPEAKER_00]: tracking the emotional state of the people around them, you know, to stay safe. 35:19.035 --> 35:23.485 [SPEAKER_00]: And that hyper vigilance doesn't just disappear, you know, go away when you grow up. 35:23.585 --> 35:27.815 [SPEAKER_00]: It travels with you into every relationship you have. 35:28.055 --> 35:29.178 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really what's happening. 35:29.679 --> 35:34.249 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's also worth understanding that 35:34.583 --> 36:03.578 [SPEAKER_00]: Meshment can gradually develop, like in an adult relationship, it can develop gradually, it really can, even if neither person came from a mesh family, I've seen this, when one partner is highly anxious and the other is a natural care taker or when one person is going through maybe a prolonged difficult period and the other steps in to manage it, the boundary between them can really slowly erode, you know, not nobody's intending it neither person intends it, it just happens, which is why 36:03.558 --> 36:05.782 [SPEAKER_00]: recognizing it really matters. 36:06.564 --> 36:07.706 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 36:07.726 --> 36:11.192 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not going to give you the tips. 36:11.212 --> 36:11.313 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 36:11.333 --> 36:12.174 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give it to you in a minute. 36:12.194 --> 36:12.495 [SPEAKER_00]: Hold on. 36:12.956 --> 36:22.273 [SPEAKER_00]: I also want to talk about what's the actual difference between closeness and enmeshment because that's a question obviously I hear a lot. 36:22.774 --> 36:23.876 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's the right one to ask. 36:23.956 --> 36:24.958 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good question. 36:25.900 --> 36:29.585 [SPEAKER_00]: closest and emeshment can look almost identical from the outside. 36:29.706 --> 36:33.711 [SPEAKER_00]: They right, they both have a deep investment in the other person. 36:33.852 --> 36:37.617 [SPEAKER_00]: They both involve caring about what the other person feels, right? 36:37.837 --> 36:38.318 [SPEAKER_00]: That's good. 36:38.398 --> 36:39.259 [SPEAKER_00]: So what separates them? 36:39.700 --> 36:41.583 [SPEAKER_00]: The difference is individuation. 36:42.704 --> 36:44.567 [SPEAKER_00]: In a close relationship, 36:44.750 --> 36:48.233 [SPEAKER_00]: both people retain a stable sense of who they are. 36:48.574 --> 36:53.058 [SPEAKER_00]: You can disagree with someone you love without it threatening the relationship. 36:53.478 --> 36:55.860 [SPEAKER_00]: You can spend time apart without anxiety. 36:56.221 --> 37:01.726 [SPEAKER_00]: You can feel something different from what they're feeling without it creating a rupture. 37:02.106 --> 37:13.677 [SPEAKER_00]: You have your own opinion, your own friendships, your own interests, and the relationship is enriched by the fact that your two distinct people choosing to be together. 37:14.450 --> 37:16.032 [SPEAKER_00]: If they're upset, you feel it. 37:16.112 --> 37:19.695 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying you don't feel it, but it doesn't ruin your day, okay? 37:20.576 --> 37:25.541 [SPEAKER_00]: What I like to say is you care about how they're feeling, but you don't worry about how they're feeling. 37:25.902 --> 37:27.083 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the difference. 37:27.103 --> 37:30.526 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, in an immaturation ship, differentiation feels threatening. 37:30.706 --> 37:35.952 [SPEAKER_00]: That individuation, differentiation, separating, separating, feel threatening. 37:36.632 --> 37:39.175 [SPEAKER_00]: Having a different opinion feels like betrayal. 37:39.863 --> 37:42.025 [SPEAKER_00]: independence feels like abandonment. 37:42.646 --> 37:51.816 [SPEAKER_00]: And the relationships stability really depends on a kind of like sameness that eventually costs both people something very real. 37:53.979 --> 38:05.972 [SPEAKER_00]: So you know a simple gut check to me is in this relationship do you feel free to be follow yourself including the parts that are 38:07.184 --> 38:10.350 [SPEAKER_00]: or fear or some kind of consequence happening. 38:10.952 --> 38:12.354 [SPEAKER_00]: If yes, that's closeness. 38:13.096 --> 38:16.663 [SPEAKER_00]: If no, then that's really worth examining, okay? 38:17.385 --> 38:18.667 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so let's get to the tools. 38:18.727 --> 38:19.669 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you're waiting for the tools. 38:19.769 --> 38:22.094 [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like there's a lot of questions I had to answer first. 38:22.114 --> 38:23.016 [SPEAKER_00]: So. 38:22.996 --> 38:36.282 [SPEAKER_00]: and I already gave you some, but I want to talk about now really the tools I want to give you are or to our, like these are four tools to start creating healthy separation. 38:36.462 --> 38:37.144 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what this is. 38:37.364 --> 38:40.971 [SPEAKER_00]: Four tools to start creating healthy separation. 38:42.892 --> 38:46.156 [SPEAKER_00]: And I do want to say this before I jump in. 38:46.176 --> 38:50.500 [SPEAKER_00]: The goal of working on a measurement isn't to create distance. 38:51.321 --> 38:52.222 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not your goal. 38:52.863 --> 39:00.772 [SPEAKER_00]: It's to create a relationship where both people can be fully present because they're not losing themselves in the process. 39:01.352 --> 39:03.495 [SPEAKER_00]: So when I'm looking for distance, that's different. 39:03.575 --> 39:05.537 [SPEAKER_00]: We're looking for something else. 39:05.557 --> 39:07.279 [SPEAKER_00]: Healthy separation, 39:08.305 --> 39:11.568 [SPEAKER_00]: creates more genuine intimacy, not less. 39:11.688 --> 39:12.930 [SPEAKER_00]: That's when they research my friends. 39:13.590 --> 39:14.712 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we're looking for. 39:14.752 --> 39:18.415 [SPEAKER_00]: So tool number one is notice where you end and they begin. 39:18.656 --> 39:23.801 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to start by developing the habit of asking, is this feeling mine or is it theirs? 39:24.321 --> 39:29.847 [SPEAKER_00]: When your partner comes home, stressed, and you immediately feel stressed, I want you to pause. 39:31.068 --> 39:33.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's not empathy, that's absorption. 39:35.187 --> 39:39.400 [SPEAKER_00]: empathy says, I can see your stress and I care about that, right? 39:40.083 --> 39:44.657 [SPEAKER_00]: Absorption says, your stress is now my stress and I won't be okay until you're okay. 39:45.548 --> 39:47.251 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want that, right? 39:47.351 --> 39:48.132 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not where we're going. 39:48.493 --> 39:54.123 [SPEAKER_00]: There's research on differentiation, like differentiation of self, I guess we'd say. 39:54.163 --> 40:00.273 [SPEAKER_00]: Murray Bowen, one of our more famous fathers in the field, talked about this originally. 40:00.714 --> 40:02.517 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a researcher, David. 40:02.597 --> 40:03.499 [SPEAKER_00]: I never know how to save. 40:03.519 --> 40:08.367 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Scnarch, it's like, 40:08.718 --> 40:09.819 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready to put out. 40:09.879 --> 40:10.440 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say it. 40:10.460 --> 40:13.684 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like SCHNARCH or something. 40:14.004 --> 40:15.886 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I've seen his research quite a bit. 40:15.906 --> 40:16.607 [SPEAKER_00]: I've read it quite a bit. 40:16.627 --> 40:20.832 [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, David, I'll again link to it on the blog. 40:20.912 --> 40:38.573 [SPEAKER_00]: But so Bowen's research, David's research later shows that the ability to stay in a emotional contact with another person while remaining connected to your own internal experiences is one of the strongest predictors of relationship health. 40:39.464 --> 40:43.349 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's a skill you can build. 40:43.530 --> 40:44.691 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a skill like anything else. 40:44.731 --> 40:46.894 [SPEAKER_00]: Like listening is a skill, confidence is a skill. 40:46.914 --> 40:47.615 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a skill. 40:47.635 --> 40:48.416 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to start small. 40:48.897 --> 40:53.964 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you notice yourself absorbing another person's emotional state, you again, you want to name it internally. 40:54.785 --> 40:56.307 [SPEAKER_00]: That's their feeling, not mine. 40:56.988 --> 41:02.335 [SPEAKER_00]: I can be with them in it without becoming it, right? 41:03.076 --> 41:04.999 [SPEAKER_00]: OK. Tool number two. 41:05.992 --> 41:08.416 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to practice tolerating a different opinion. 41:08.537 --> 41:10.680 [SPEAKER_00]: A measurement really thrives on sameness. 41:10.901 --> 41:23.123 [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the most direct ways to interrupt it is to practice having expressing and tolerating a different opinion without it becoming a crisis. 41:23.103 --> 41:24.766 [SPEAKER_00]: Who would have thought? 41:25.227 --> 41:27.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Now this doesn't mean picking fights off you. 41:27.330 --> 41:28.272 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope, obviously. 41:28.332 --> 41:37.348 [SPEAKER_00]: It means noticing when you've automatically agreed with someone and asking yourself if that's what actually what you think. 41:38.105 --> 41:45.380 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so, and you want to start with low stakes situations, you know, what do you actually think about the restaurant they suggested? 41:45.540 --> 41:50.149 [SPEAKER_00]: I tell people that we start there, the movie they want to watch, right? 41:50.590 --> 41:53.616 [SPEAKER_00]: The plan they proposed for the weekend, start low stakes. 41:54.490 --> 41:57.774 [SPEAKER_00]: really practice having your own view and sharing it calmly. 41:58.175 --> 42:05.944 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, the goal is to build the evidence that a different opinion doesn't destroy the relationship. 42:06.064 --> 42:08.127 [SPEAKER_00]: It really, it makes it more real. 42:08.187 --> 42:09.588 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what it's doing. 42:09.609 --> 42:15.756 [SPEAKER_00]: And if it is, quote unquote, destroying the relationship, that is a big, big, big red flag and something you really have to look at. 42:18.183 --> 42:23.074 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, tool number three is to really start to build back your independent life. 42:23.335 --> 42:28.788 [SPEAKER_00]: Because in measurement, it'll contract your whole world. 42:28.868 --> 42:30.652 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes your world smaller. 42:30.672 --> 42:33.559 [SPEAKER_00]: The antidote is to 42:33.539 --> 42:39.945 [SPEAKER_00]: deliberately expanded again, and that means pursuing interests and friendships that are yours alone. 42:40.146 --> 42:48.374 [SPEAKER_00]: Not as a way of pulling away from the relationship, not that, but as a way of showing up in it as a whole person. 42:48.434 --> 42:49.975 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you're trying to do. 42:50.356 --> 42:56.202 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost friendships or hobbies or even just the habit of having your own thoughts, I want you to start reclaiming them. 42:56.622 --> 43:01.487 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't make your magic if you're going to announce it on Facebook or anything, just consistently. 43:01.619 --> 43:13.599 [SPEAKER_00]: one afternoon a week that yours, one friendship you tend without it needing to be coming a shared relationship, one interest you pursue because you love it not because it fits the relationship. 43:13.759 --> 43:14.120 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. 43:14.620 --> 43:15.782 [SPEAKER_00]: Just start small. 43:17.645 --> 43:23.495 [SPEAKER_00]: And then tool number four is to you're really going to have to learn to sit with their discomfort without fixing it. 43:23.575 --> 43:24.657 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say it again. 43:25.345 --> 43:31.712 [SPEAKER_00]: you're learning to sit with their discomfort, which is probably your own at that point without fixing it. 43:31.752 --> 43:44.866 [SPEAKER_00]: And this one is hard because when you have these sort of mesh dynamics, the impulse to fix, to rescue the other person when they are uncomfortable, oh my gosh, it's reflexive. 43:45.467 --> 43:51.994 [SPEAKER_00]: It is like, you're just so caught up in that, but it's actually one of the ways, 43:53.020 --> 43:54.685 [SPEAKER_00]: in measurement maintains itself. 43:54.986 --> 44:01.485 [SPEAKER_00]: Every time you rush to manage their feelings for them, you are reinforcing the pattern. 44:02.468 --> 44:07.603 [SPEAKER_00]: So learning to stay present with someone who's upset without taking over. 44:07.837 --> 44:17.432 [SPEAKER_00]: without suggestions or advice or fixing or absorbing their distress, it's one of the most loving things you will ever do in your life. 44:18.193 --> 44:22.079 [SPEAKER_00]: It communicates, I trust you to handle this. 44:22.319 --> 44:26.626 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm here, but I'm not doing it for you because I don't need to do it for you. 44:26.686 --> 44:27.507 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got this. 44:28.469 --> 44:30.191 [SPEAKER_00]: That's connection without investment. 44:31.193 --> 44:31.954 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. 44:32.761 --> 44:35.025 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, you know what I'm going to say now. 44:35.706 --> 44:39.692 [SPEAKER_00]: So to be able to do all these wonderful things, I just said, what are you going to have to have? 44:40.213 --> 44:40.894 [SPEAKER_00]: What are you going to have? 44:40.994 --> 44:41.915 [SPEAKER_00]: I say it every episode. 44:41.955 --> 44:44.820 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, myfulness, you're going to need to be mindful. 44:45.241 --> 44:53.814 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can notice when you're getting sucked into an unhealthy pattern or cycle, you have to be, and when I say much, so in the moment to notice, ooh, I'm feeling this tension. 44:54.054 --> 44:56.338 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow, they're really getting pulled in. 44:56.318 --> 45:09.550 [SPEAKER_00]: the ability to notice what you're feeling, to catch that automatic impulse to absorb it, to fix it, and to choose a different response, that's all mindfulness skill. 45:09.570 --> 45:10.831 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all what it is. 45:11.092 --> 45:14.515 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I got the free mindfulness starter kit. 45:14.675 --> 45:16.236 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got episodes on mindfulness. 45:16.336 --> 45:17.718 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll link to all of that in the blog. 45:17.758 --> 45:24.604 [SPEAKER_00]: But, or below the video, but you're going to, I'm telling you, 45:25.782 --> 45:26.423 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's wrap it up. 45:27.405 --> 45:33.698 [SPEAKER_00]: So in measurement, oh, and I have a great free download for today, and of course, a wonderful therapy to go bundles. 45:33.718 --> 45:34.940 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll talk about all that in a minute. 45:36.082 --> 45:42.214 [SPEAKER_00]: In measurement isn't about not loving someone enough or too much, okay? 45:42.375 --> 45:42.916 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not it. 45:42.936 --> 45:44.078 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about, 45:44.767 --> 45:47.531 [SPEAKER_00]: whether you can love them while still being yourself. 45:47.651 --> 45:48.552 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really what it's about. 45:48.672 --> 45:55.100 [SPEAKER_00]: The continuum from thin to thick boundaries that I said, it's not a judgment, it's a map. 45:55.120 --> 45:57.323 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a judgment, it's a map. 45:57.343 --> 46:02.650 [SPEAKER_00]: When you can see where you are on that map, you can start moving towards something healthier. 46:02.710 --> 46:07.436 [SPEAKER_00]: Not just for your relationship, but for your own sense of who you are in the world, right? 46:08.237 --> 46:10.200 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's really what I want for you. 46:10.484 --> 46:19.995 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so if this episode, if I was chatting today and you were really recognizing your own patterns, if you were nodding your head a lot, or thinking, oh my gosh, that's me. 46:20.836 --> 46:26.863 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you wanna start with this free download I created, which it's a quick self-assessment. 46:26.883 --> 46:31.708 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, with the free downloads that I create now for every episode, I'm always trying to think like, what's next for you? 46:32.229 --> 46:36.053 [SPEAKER_00]: What would you need to do next to be healthier in this area? 46:36.033 --> 46:50.071 [SPEAKER_00]: So I have a little assessment and I'm calling it like am I a mesh or just close, you know, and it's just going to walk you through the kind of key questions to help you figure out what's actually going on in your most important relationships, okay? 46:50.091 --> 46:50.351 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it. 46:50.571 --> 46:51.132 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's free. 46:51.152 --> 46:52.093 [SPEAKER_00]: It's below the video. 46:52.254 --> 46:53.575 [SPEAKER_00]: It's on the blog page. 46:54.296 --> 47:01.365 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you realize and like if you're sitting at the whole time and thinking and you know that a measurement is a real pattern in your life and you want to 47:01.345 --> 47:07.996 [SPEAKER_00]: again, to do a little therapy around it, some concrete tools to start creating separation without guilt. 47:08.818 --> 47:17.172 [SPEAKER_00]: I always have a therapy to go bundle with every episode and this one is like how to create healthy separation without losing the relationship. 47:17.973 --> 47:25.446 [SPEAKER_00]: And inside again, I have worksheets and journaling prompts and practical exercises really to be helped you begin the work. 47:25.612 --> 47:29.758 [SPEAKER_00]: of differentiation in a way that feels grounded and manageable. 47:29.959 --> 47:31.301 [SPEAKER_00]: It's only $10. 47:31.341 --> 47:36.188 [SPEAKER_00]: The free download is included, so you don't have to download anything twice if that's what you want. 47:36.208 --> 47:38.632 [SPEAKER_00]: But it is my way. 47:38.752 --> 47:42.198 [SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of people can't access therapy, can't afford therapy, whatever. 47:42.258 --> 47:44.481 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't believe in therapy, maybe whatever. 47:45.068 --> 47:47.070 [SPEAKER_00]: want to do it on their own or need to do it on their own. 47:47.711 --> 47:50.093 [SPEAKER_00]: This is, you know, the bundle of 10 bucks. 47:50.113 --> 47:52.676 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's a, it's, I think, a pretty great investment. 47:52.696 --> 48:04.748 [SPEAKER_00]: I keep the costs really low so that you can really do some real work and truly have the tools to shift and change this situation. 48:05.109 --> 48:06.430 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 48:06.450 --> 48:07.852 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's it for today. 48:07.872 --> 48:10.655 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for spending your time with me. 48:10.715 --> 48:13.978 [SPEAKER_00]: I know there's a lot of ways you have to spend time as always. 48:14.836 --> 48:32.206 [SPEAKER_00]: So appreciative of our relationship, you and I, you know, of the work we're doing together of you really being committed to your relationship with yourself and your own peace and happiness and sense of fulfillment in your life. 48:32.407 --> 48:36.714 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what, that's why I started this podcast on the eight years ago now. 48:36.774 --> 48:40.000 [SPEAKER_00]: We're ending the season soon, which are year, 48:40.773 --> 48:42.677 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you, thank you for being here with me. 48:42.837 --> 48:44.100 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, I love you so much. 48:44.180 --> 48:49.191 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful, appreciative, profoundly, that we have this together. 48:49.712 --> 48:52.899 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd love to hear any suggestions you have for a future episode. 48:52.959 --> 48:54.743 [SPEAKER_00]: You can comment below the video. 48:54.783 --> 48:59.653 [SPEAKER_00]: You can send me an email at abyadabymetcaf.com or you can find the Let's Connect page on the website. 48:59.713 --> 49:01.397 [SPEAKER_00]: Any of those places get to me. 49:01.377 --> 49:11.665 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, obviously don't write me a big along letter, but if there's something, you know, just a topic, you have a couple sentences that you can say while you want this topic, I'd be really happy to hear about it. 49:12.006 --> 49:16.197 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, I'm not having an amazing week, and I will talk to you real soon. 49:16.379 --> 49:18.681 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for spending time with me today. 49:18.721 --> 49:23.886 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're loving what you're learning here, come join my one love collective. 49:24.067 --> 49:25.408 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my private community. 49:25.828 --> 49:28.551 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be take these conversations even deeper. 49:28.591 --> 49:31.634 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll get a ton of bonus content. 49:32.034 --> 49:45.087 [SPEAKER_00]: Live Q&As with me, guided visualizations, journaling prompts, scripts, and an incredible community of like-minded people ready to support you as you create more ease and joy. 49:45.067 --> 49:46.635 [SPEAKER_00]: in all your relationships. 49:47.198 --> 49:51.320 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all waiting for you at AppieMedCraft.com or right on Substack. 49:51.823 --> 49:52.647 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you next week.