WEBVTT 00:00.976 --> 00:08.466 [SPEAKER_00]: What would it rob you of if someone told you it was going to be okay and gave you that guarantee before you decided to do things you wanted to do? 00:08.767 --> 00:15.055 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, well, rob me of my learning of my resilience, myself, belief, my abilities. 00:15.095 --> 00:16.778 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, nobody told me I was going to be okay. 00:21.284 --> 00:27.152 [SPEAKER_02]: We often define artists by their output, their records, books, movies, and the times they're on stage. 00:27.453 --> 00:32.544 [SPEAKER_00]: But the art is made in the quiet, the struggle and the mundane, the hours that no one sees. 00:33.646 --> 00:34.749 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm McKayla Ann. 00:34.769 --> 00:36.472 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Aaron Kray for Hayes. 00:36.492 --> 00:37.755 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the other 22 hours. 00:38.156 --> 00:41.884 [SPEAKER_02]: An exploration of the creative life lived in between. 00:55.330 --> 01:18.030 [SPEAKER_02]: and welcome to today's episode of episode number 150 and so we decided we've done this enough that we might as well approach as one as a giant experiment and do some of the we've never done which is have ourselves as guests for the first time so we're doing our intro live rather than doing it at the end so all I can say is this will be an adventure that we're all on together. 01:19.073 --> 01:27.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so we have just released, and I'm saying we because Erin and I made my new record together. 01:27.301 --> 01:46.498 [SPEAKER_00]: These are the days which came out on May 8th, and so with 150 episodes as well as putting out a record together and all the things we talked about on this podcast we thought, what if we interviewed each other about being a married couple, making a record together, working together, doing a million things together. 01:46.934 --> 01:47.835 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. 01:47.855 --> 01:58.591 [SPEAKER_02]: As we like to focus these conversations on our guest and our shared relationship with creativity, it's come to our attention that maybe we don't share a lot about ourselves. 01:58.851 --> 02:07.945 [SPEAKER_02]: So in the tradition of our intro's for this show, today's conversation features Michaela Ann, who is a singer songwriter and a songwriting coach. 02:08.425 --> 02:12.191 [SPEAKER_02]: Michaela has released this is her fifth record, sixth. 02:12.712 --> 02:15.135 [SPEAKER_02]: If you count the first one, 02:16.583 --> 02:21.591 [SPEAKER_02]: and it is the first record in over a decade that she owns entirely. 02:21.611 --> 02:31.385 [SPEAKER_02]: The past four records have been released on indie labels, all of whom now own those masters, and Michaela has toured with the likes of the Wood Brothers and Watchhouse. 02:31.746 --> 02:43.924 [SPEAKER_02]: Bonnie Light Horseman all over the states all over Europe, and has been a featured guest instructor at Songwriting Camps, at Sisters Folk Festival, and at Folk's Fest for Planet Bluegrass in Colorado. 02:43.904 --> 02:48.220 [SPEAKER_02]: And addition to that has been my partner in all things for 19 years. 02:48.802 --> 02:49.444 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's crazy. 02:49.685 --> 02:49.866 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 02:50.508 --> 02:53.880 [SPEAKER_00]: And our other guest today is Aaron Shafer Hayes. 02:53.995 --> 02:55.177 [SPEAKER_02]: This is so awkward. 02:58.101 --> 03:02.907 [SPEAKER_00]: Aaron Sheafer Hayes, who is an acclaimed producer and multi-instrumentalist. 03:03.308 --> 03:08.835 [SPEAKER_00]: When I met Aaron, he was a barefoot pendetto plane. 03:08.855 --> 03:15.524 [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, on the jazz school floors, if you don't know what a pendetto is, it's a Brazilian tambourine. 03:15.765 --> 03:18.889 [SPEAKER_00]: That Aaron is remarkably good at, but hasn't played for a really long time. 03:18.869 --> 03:34.060 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have gotten to watch Erin evolve into a drummer who has played with so many artists and bands on tour like Nicole Atkins Elizabeth Cook, the Watson Twins, 03:34.040 --> 03:52.697 [SPEAKER_00]: I have watched him evolve past that and become a multi-instrumentalist, teach himself how to record and compose and decided I want to do sync for TV and now his music has been placed on major network television shows like Station 19, like the good doctor, what was the most recent one that just came out? 03:53.037 --> 03:53.858 [SPEAKER_02]: Best medicine. 03:54.058 --> 04:04.047 [SPEAKER_00]: Best medicine and become an emotionally intelligent and sensitive 04:04.027 --> 04:07.135 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, now I see why we do these after the fact. 04:07.196 --> 04:08.278 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, no, I do feel emotional. 04:08.780 --> 04:09.301 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel emotional. 04:09.321 --> 04:14.816 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I feel awkward. 04:14.836 --> 04:18.205 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, as we like to start off, how are you and where are you? 04:18.526 --> 04:20.010 [SPEAKER_02]: Both physically and creatively. 04:20.092 --> 04:26.200 [SPEAKER_00]: I am feeling good today, but also like very sensitive and raw for some reason. 04:26.220 --> 04:32.828 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just before I came out here, I was just talking to our nanny about petstein and was crying. 04:33.289 --> 04:43.382 [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel a little open, but also because I played a show last night in Nashville with some of my oldest friends, and it felt great. 04:43.362 --> 04:50.832 [SPEAKER_00]: Physically, I'm here in Nashville at our studio and creatively, I feel really open as well. 04:51.333 --> 05:01.867 [SPEAKER_00]: My creative path is a feels very like seasonal and a lot sometimes I go through periods of time where I'm just like not buzzing and not porous as Maggie Smith calls it. 05:02.288 --> 05:06.013 [SPEAKER_00]: And right now I feel very buzzing and porous and open. 05:06.854 --> 05:07.615 [SPEAKER_00]: And what about you? 05:07.831 --> 05:29.333 [SPEAKER_02]: Physically we're in our studio in the back here as we always are which gives me a little bit of like a Pavlovian response because I just come out here to do all of my creative work, so that helps me arrive in that how am I I'm doing well, I'm exhausted as you are with two little kids and 05:29.313 --> 05:32.778 [SPEAKER_02]: Spinning 10 points at once all the time creatively. 05:32.838 --> 05:48.942 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling inspired but detached if that makes sense I feel like I have a pretty full tank Creatively been a deep well, but like it's elusive in that if I if I actually try to dip into the well 05:48.922 --> 06:08.892 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't see it or feel it, but if I just turn off that active part of my brain and just let my creativity flow, I have plenty of fuel and plenty of inspiration and action there, which is a weird feeling to be inspired but not be able to like actively engage it really. 06:08.932 --> 06:12.718 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess what I'm saying to be less obscure, I guess would be 06:12.698 --> 06:18.849 [SPEAKER_02]: If I focus on the work that I need to do and just trust that my inspiration is there, it is there. 06:19.109 --> 06:19.971 [SPEAKER_02]: And it spurs. 06:20.291 --> 06:25.580 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm struggling a bunch of projects at the moment in a bunch of different directions and approaches. 06:26.201 --> 06:33.053 [SPEAKER_02]: So that makes me a little bit creatively numb, even though they're different enough that I don't expend my creativity. 06:33.286 --> 06:39.752 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I observe your creativity because of the work you do is like a faucet that you have to turn on and off all the time. 06:39.772 --> 06:41.794 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, oh, I have to do this sink song. 06:41.854 --> 06:46.098 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to turn it on and come up with an inspired guitar part and then I'm going to turn it off. 06:46.138 --> 06:58.550 [SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm going to switch over to this artist's record that I'm mixing and get into that space, which feels I feel like a little more willy nilly and what I do creatively, like I get to do it if I don't want to. 06:58.570 --> 07:00.812 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to where I feel like you have to. 07:00.843 --> 07:03.247 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know if that's necessarily good or bad. 07:03.527 --> 07:04.108 [SPEAKER_02]: I see that. 07:04.549 --> 07:11.139 [SPEAKER_02]: And to me, I view your creativity in the way you're able to approach it as like creativity more in its purest sense. 07:11.760 --> 07:14.985 [SPEAKER_02]: Where mine feels like a little like utilitarian creativity. 07:15.626 --> 07:15.867 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 07:16.007 --> 07:19.813 [SPEAKER_02]: Service industry, which I think is like from how I've come up. 07:19.793 --> 07:26.809 [SPEAKER_02]: Even when I was kid, like never was I really just creating to create and write like songs here there. 07:27.090 --> 07:28.674 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I'd play like the drums for fun. 07:28.734 --> 07:31.360 [SPEAKER_02]: The largest part of me growing up, like I just wanted to play the drums. 07:31.801 --> 07:34.267 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I didn't want to be like a front person at all. 07:34.567 --> 07:35.470 [SPEAKER_02]: The exact opposite. 07:35.490 --> 07:37.194 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, put me the back of the stage. 07:37.214 --> 07:37.414 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:37.394 --> 07:37.755 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 07:37.775 --> 07:38.716 [SPEAKER_00]: That's so interesting. 07:38.997 --> 07:43.945 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I've gone through periods of time where I feel pressured to write because of career stuff. 07:43.965 --> 07:49.373 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got to make a new record because time is running out and people are going to forget about me. 07:49.534 --> 07:51.597 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, granted, I just put a record out. 07:51.857 --> 08:00.972 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's like a little bit of cushion, but I feel very in like a playful space, but also probably because I've just written like seven songs that I'm sitting on. 08:00.952 --> 08:21.733 [SPEAKER_00]: that I wasn't expecting to all inspired by my school work of grad school of studying depth psychology of creativity, but it's just fascinating to think of all these different ways to utilize our creativity where it's just like, I want to play with my imagination right now or okay I need to utilize my imagination to get work done. 08:22.093 --> 08:25.677 [SPEAKER_00]: They're both play, but sometimes it's 08:25.859 --> 08:42.349 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the context I hear you say like I just want to like play in my imagination for a while Am I initials what's like that sounds fun which I've definitely gone through like phases of doing that I just feel like the current era of our lives or my life is just as not 08:42.329 --> 08:42.630 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:42.710 --> 08:43.993 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no time for that. 08:44.133 --> 08:47.059 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very much like task based at the moment. 08:47.400 --> 08:55.297 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also our imaginations are utilized every single day and night with our child who is endlessly asking for stories and really. 08:55.397 --> 08:59.646 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, yeah, I can make up right now. 09:00.082 --> 09:05.534 [SPEAKER_02]: my 47th variation of a story of a girl riding a unicorn into outer space. 09:05.775 --> 09:06.998 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, which is beautiful. 09:07.058 --> 09:11.267 [SPEAKER_00]: We've moved past the hundred variations of the three little days. 09:11.348 --> 09:12.129 [SPEAKER_02]: We found all of them. 09:12.370 --> 09:13.332 [SPEAKER_00]: We made up. 09:13.447 --> 09:17.552 [SPEAKER_02]: It did help me to think of that as like creative endurance training. 09:17.572 --> 09:23.339 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, when you're tired and you're like, okay, I have to think of new characters within the framework of the three little pigs. 09:23.819 --> 09:27.684 [SPEAKER_00]: New interesting houses, new interesting big bad wolf. 09:27.784 --> 09:33.170 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it really made me, I like to still myself down to like understanding the macro points of a story. 09:33.390 --> 09:33.711 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 09:33.731 --> 09:40.078 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, development characters, conflict, resolution, okay. 09:40.058 --> 09:51.445 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there's multiple times so we walk into the room the other person's in the middle of the story and Alright, I just say like help And I feel like I feel like our daughter's getting to the point that she looks at us and's like, where's this going? 09:52.227 --> 09:55.876 [SPEAKER_02]: What are we talking about? 09:55.996 --> 09:56.076 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah 09:56.056 --> 09:56.457 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 09:56.597 --> 09:57.479 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a clipboard. 09:57.519 --> 10:00.085 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the first time we've had notes on this. 10:00.105 --> 10:00.526 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 10:00.686 --> 10:14.335 [SPEAKER_00]: So we want to keep this conversation centered on the themes of this podcast, the other 22 hours, but also focused on the main project of making my record. 10:14.315 --> 10:29.981 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is like an evolution of how our creative relationship started in that as I mentioned in the intro, like we've been partners for 19 years met in college, but not long after I started playing in your band. 10:30.081 --> 10:32.285 [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't really have a band when we started dating. 10:32.425 --> 10:34.588 [SPEAKER_00]: I hadn't even played a show. 10:34.608 --> 10:36.592 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you and Justin Mathews were playing show. 10:36.612 --> 10:37.273 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay. 10:37.293 --> 10:38.114 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a guitar guy. 10:38.415 --> 10:39.697 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you had a guitar guy. 10:39.717 --> 10:39.917 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 10:40.589 --> 10:43.634 [SPEAKER_02]: But as soon as you start having a band, it was kind of playing drums with you. 10:44.396 --> 10:51.127 [SPEAKER_02]: And very early on, I think we were very intentional about establishing like, this is separate from our relationship. 10:51.768 --> 10:52.830 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you are hiring me. 10:53.191 --> 10:57.058 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm playing in your band, it's your band, it's your thing, separate from our relationship. 10:57.238 --> 10:58.360 [SPEAKER_02]: Because both can be messy. 10:58.600 --> 11:01.365 [SPEAKER_02]: So not to have them interact with each other. 11:01.345 --> 11:17.076 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and over the last 19 years, we've gone in and out of playing together, refusing to play together, very far reaches doing our own things separate from each other, coming back together, but I'm curious. 11:17.056 --> 11:21.942 [SPEAKER_00]: In the past few years, working on this podcast and then you've produced my last two records. 11:22.022 --> 11:35.637 [SPEAKER_00]: The first one ought to be that free, we co-produced, because that also felt important for me, just in my, I had made so many records with dude producers that I felt like I was a producer on and just wasn't credited for. 11:35.657 --> 11:40.903 [SPEAKER_00]: So that partnership being able to do that with you, it felt important to be like, this is together. 11:40.883 --> 11:50.414 [SPEAKER_00]: And then this time around with these are the days, I think also we had a child, our partnership felt so much more stable than it's ever been. 11:50.474 --> 11:53.918 [SPEAKER_00]: That credit didn't feel important anymore. 11:53.938 --> 12:00.446 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I think I was like the personal life, professional life, all bleeds together at this point. 12:00.506 --> 12:09.456 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, hey, I need you to handle even more on my record because I'm going to be 12:09.436 --> 12:17.108 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm curious, inspired by one of our previous guests, Major Jackson, what kind of personal work do you think you had to do? 12:17.128 --> 12:21.635 [SPEAKER_00]: To be able to get to the place to work with your wife, me, creatively. 12:21.895 --> 12:23.117 [SPEAKER_02]: This is like big picture. 12:23.418 --> 12:23.658 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 12:24.059 --> 12:25.521 [SPEAKER_02]: We started working together so early. 12:25.541 --> 12:29.267 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't like I had to make a decision to work with you creatively. 12:29.247 --> 12:45.198 [SPEAKER_00]: But how do you think you had to personally evolve or do you think to be in a place to work successfully with me to be able to like handle conflict and tension without us exploding on each other and to really like get the best out of our working relationship in the work. 12:45.218 --> 12:48.083 [SPEAKER_02]: My initial response like have we figured that out yet? 12:49.801 --> 12:52.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Acceptance, knowing that there will be times of tension. 12:52.909 --> 12:58.964 [SPEAKER_02]: For sure, and decoupling our personal relationship from the work and focusing on the work. 12:59.204 --> 13:06.021 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, the hardest thing is that's different for me, working with you than with any other artist is removing myself from it. 13:06.001 --> 13:16.495 [SPEAKER_02]: Working with any other artists, it's really easy to remove myself from it, and I take pride in that, because I've never been a front person, because I've never had my own thing, it's never been about me. 13:16.575 --> 13:26.288 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't find that I have anything to prove in somebody else's music, I view it, my job is bringing their music to life in the life that they see it as best as possible. 13:26.335 --> 13:37.607 [SPEAKER_02]: which I judge I'm able to do for you, but it's so close to me that I have to very actively be like, is this decision for me or is the decision for Michaela and turn myself off? 13:38.630 --> 13:41.678 [SPEAKER_02]: Or I notice that most when I feel like push back. 13:41.658 --> 13:43.162 [SPEAKER_02]: That's when I really have to check it. 13:43.323 --> 13:50.122 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, is this pushback because I'm really close and this creative choice or direction doesn't feel like me. 13:50.283 --> 13:53.171 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's like the alarm bell going off or is the alarm bell going off? 13:53.291 --> 13:54.515 [SPEAKER_02]: Because it's not serving the song. 13:55.056 --> 13:57.102 [SPEAKER_02]: The driest point, having to like check that. 13:57.082 --> 14:17.233 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like one of the things we've navigated is we came up with very different musical influences and one of the places that we have tension is when naming things more genre based when I want to pull things more country and traditional and this is my interpretation and you are like, hey, let's try something different and then that 14:17.213 --> 14:36.873 [SPEAKER_00]: The difference is the fact that we're married and have a personal relationship in history, it's so much more loaded than if I was just working with another producer, and we pick up on each other's tone, and then there's 20 years of, like, yeah, you say you don't want me to do, like, you hate this. 14:37.013 --> 14:39.756 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I don't hate country music. 14:39.856 --> 14:41.618 [SPEAKER_02]: I just hate safe choices. 14:41.817 --> 14:42.157 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 14:42.538 --> 14:47.384 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, but sometimes a safe choice is just the right choice. 14:47.584 --> 14:47.684 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 14:47.704 --> 14:47.905 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 14:47.945 --> 14:52.010 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's an example on my end of what I have to be like, is this just like my own preference? 14:52.410 --> 14:52.710 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 14:53.091 --> 14:56.375 [SPEAKER_02]: Or will the song be better if we push a little bit? 14:56.715 --> 14:56.916 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 14:57.576 --> 14:59.919 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, because safe can be totally fine. 15:00.140 --> 15:03.724 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, and it serves as long and sometimes anything more than that just gets in the way. 15:03.788 --> 15:31.095 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think for both of us coming from jazz school and then in New York City where the culture was so everything had to be new and interesting and then also like the culture of me working at Nonset Records, which you were by proxy like because we live together, you will like also experience that it was really about just like always trying to push the envelope what was celebrated was like the most kind of inventive. 15:31.075 --> 15:44.410 [SPEAKER_00]: which was a struggle for me because I felt like my heart was more and kind of traditional stuff but that seemed boring to the people around me in my interpretation and then moving to Nashville which felt like the opposite spectrum. 15:44.831 --> 15:51.138 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of just folk songs, country songs, very traditional, not pushing the envelope. 15:51.158 --> 15:59.968 [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of finding the line of like, well what do you want to 16:00.033 --> 16:06.907 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think in my reaction, I was like, I don't know if it matters what I want to make on your records or any records. 16:07.308 --> 16:12.959 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, my taste and my instinct comes into it, but like, it doesn't really matter what I want to make. 16:13.160 --> 16:18.210 [SPEAKER_02]: They're your songs in your vision, and you're essentially hiring me to make your vision. 16:18.270 --> 16:21.737 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like hearing that. 16:22.527 --> 16:25.290 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't see how it could be anything but that. 16:25.650 --> 16:27.452 [SPEAKER_00]: But not every producer feels that way. 16:27.532 --> 16:29.034 [SPEAKER_02]: They should make their own records then. 16:29.334 --> 16:29.695 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 16:29.715 --> 16:34.520 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I told a friend one time that every producer I've worked with, I was like, you're the producer. 16:34.660 --> 16:36.422 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm paying you money to produce this. 16:36.502 --> 16:42.128 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, also I want to establish any arguments or disagreements at the end of the day. 16:42.148 --> 16:44.891 [SPEAKER_00]: I always went because it's my name. 16:45.331 --> 16:45.872 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm paying. 16:46.312 --> 16:51.538 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my songs. 16:51.518 --> 16:59.470 [SPEAKER_00]: I would be so terrified and like that's just how I want to roll and I guess not everybody does but I like that's how I feel 17:00.260 --> 17:02.223 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, just a quick pause from this conversation. 17:02.683 --> 17:08.451 [SPEAKER_02]: The other 22 hours is an independent production built entirely on the idea that these quiet, honest conversations matter. 17:08.972 --> 17:14.640 [SPEAKER_02]: The best way to support our work is simply to share it, so if you can think of one person who would appreciate this show, please pass it along. 17:14.980 --> 17:20.568 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't yet, please follow our show on your listening platform of choice or subscribe to our channel on YouTube. 17:20.588 --> 17:22.971 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a small action that makes a massive difference for us. 17:23.732 --> 17:24.433 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being here. 17:24.874 --> 17:26.436 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get back to our conversation. 17:28.255 --> 17:31.119 [SPEAKER_02]: So how does that apply to us working together? 17:31.540 --> 17:39.090 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel more empowered to say something or do you feel more empathetic, more sensitive to my response? 17:39.391 --> 17:50.466 [SPEAKER_00]: And making this record, and now I feel more empowered to say things and feel very confident in you knowing my taste. 17:50.446 --> 18:13.250 [SPEAKER_00]: musically and prioritizing that and putting that as your first main decision and also You knock it in defensive or personalizing it when I don't like something that you like or are wanting to do and you being able to pivot I think that's been a major growth in our working Relationship and creative relationship for sure. 18:13.430 --> 18:14.091 [SPEAKER_02]: I see that too 18:14.071 --> 18:27.020 [SPEAKER_00]: And specifically this record, these are the days, what was the most challenging part of making it, whether it was like in regards to me or the record in general. 18:27.461 --> 18:30.207 [SPEAKER_00]: And on the flip set, I also want to know the easiest part. 18:30.322 --> 18:33.227 [SPEAKER_02]: The first thing that comes to mind is the timeline. 18:33.788 --> 18:35.411 [SPEAKER_02]: The timeline, I think, has been the hardest. 18:36.192 --> 18:39.237 [SPEAKER_02]: This record just came out when this conversation comes up. 18:39.839 --> 18:42.303 [SPEAKER_02]: But we recorded it at the end of January, 2024. 18:44.066 --> 18:47.031 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot of life that happened between there. 18:47.011 --> 18:49.957 [SPEAKER_02]: between it took a year to get it mastered after we mixed it. 18:50.258 --> 18:58.876 [SPEAKER_02]: On the production end, you know, producing this record, that was the hardest, I think in like a tangible task was the gap between mixing and mastering. 18:59.136 --> 19:04.648 [SPEAKER_02]: I had to spend some time to sit with the record before hearing railing's masters. 19:04.628 --> 19:05.169 [SPEAKER_02]: I went back. 19:05.189 --> 19:06.872 [SPEAKER_02]: I listened to the rough mixes. 19:07.132 --> 19:25.903 [SPEAKER_02]: I went back and listened to like early bounces from my tracking just so I could like realign my head with our initial intent and it's like where What record were we making in April of 2024 when we mix this not what record are we mastering in April of 2025, you know, because aesthetics change we change. 19:25.923 --> 19:27.165 [SPEAKER_02]: We had a whole other kid. 19:27.325 --> 19:27.666 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:29.013 --> 19:32.720 [SPEAKER_02]: There was no talk of another kid when we made the record and how we were messing. 19:32.781 --> 19:36.047 [SPEAKER_02]: We had another kid, full living, breathing, human being. 19:37.710 --> 19:44.083 [SPEAKER_02]: So as a task and a tangible thing in producing the record, that was probably the hardest externally. 19:44.464 --> 19:47.350 [SPEAKER_02]: Keep in the continuity of intent over that time. 19:47.690 --> 19:48.051 [SPEAKER_02]: How about you? 19:48.031 --> 20:03.033 [SPEAKER_00]: The actual making, the recording of the record, that week that we spent, probably the most challenging thing for me was mentally and physically juggling Georgia, having a toddler, just making sure we had child care lined up. 20:03.133 --> 20:13.147 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a different thing for me to now be like recording, writing, and always my brain is always running math and other needs simultaneously. 20:13.247 --> 20:17.093 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, we're recording, but okay, but now I gotta go at two thirty to go pick up. 20:17.073 --> 20:23.262 [SPEAKER_00]: Georgia or make sure the babysitters there, but like even if the babysitters taking care of it, I'm still mentally like, are they cool? 20:23.323 --> 20:24.024 [SPEAKER_00]: Does she have her? 20:24.064 --> 20:24.705 [SPEAKER_00]: Where are they? 20:24.745 --> 20:26.087 [SPEAKER_00]: Does she have her snack? 20:26.107 --> 20:32.236 [SPEAKER_00]: All of those things are still running in my mind constantly versus before that recording. 20:32.276 --> 20:35.962 [SPEAKER_00]: Like how we made O2B that free was so leisurely. 20:35.982 --> 20:40.549 [SPEAKER_00]: I was pregnant, so I was tired, but it was just like, we had no schedule. 20:40.529 --> 20:48.641 [SPEAKER_00]: That was probably the most challenging and then also the business side of things, which is the reason that the timeline was so stretched out of. 20:49.162 --> 21:03.263 [SPEAKER_00]: I was still technically under contract potentially with my record deal when we made the record, and was trying to really just freely create and make this record, but had no idea if I wanted it to come out with that deal. 21:03.243 --> 21:09.231 [SPEAKER_00]: we were going to shop around for other deals that was what was hard for me to get around. 21:09.271 --> 21:30.178 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember when we first listened, I came in here and we listened to the record down before we sent it off from mixing and I was so happy but then I also started crying because I was like what I'm never going to get to play these songs live because I think my relationship with my 21:30.158 --> 21:31.740 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that sucked. 21:32.301 --> 21:37.028 [SPEAKER_00]: And my head space around my career was really bad. 21:37.068 --> 21:39.692 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, I don't have any opportunity. 21:39.752 --> 21:40.834 [SPEAKER_00]: I lost everything. 21:40.894 --> 21:45.260 [SPEAKER_00]: All the people who were supporting me in the past, think I'm done. 21:45.281 --> 21:52.712 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was hard for me to celebrate this music without being like, but what's next? 21:52.992 --> 21:55.035 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no hope for what's next. 21:55.015 --> 21:58.365 [SPEAKER_00]: And thankfully, I feel very different now. 21:58.847 --> 22:04.063 [SPEAKER_00]: And so in some ways, it's been like a good lesson and like the timelines or what they're meant to be. 22:04.229 --> 22:17.264 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, the public narrative behind ought to be that free was that you wrote and recorded these songs and then in that time became a mother, your mom had a stroke. 22:17.324 --> 22:32.582 [SPEAKER_02]: There was all this change, but to me, like this record is really the amount of life change that has happened in the full span of this record for you, I mean, for us, but 22:32.562 --> 22:38.168 [SPEAKER_02]: for lack of a better word, you started writing these songs from a place of like, I haven't written in two years. 22:38.329 --> 22:39.130 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a new mom. 22:39.390 --> 22:41.252 [SPEAKER_02]: This tragic thing happened to my mom. 22:41.272 --> 22:42.573 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, am I going to write again? 22:42.613 --> 22:43.334 [SPEAKER_02]: Do I have a career? 22:43.394 --> 22:44.676 [SPEAKER_02]: What's happening? 22:44.696 --> 22:51.624 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I noticed and have heard you talk about how like writing these songs, I started to like, you're like, oh, I can do this. 22:51.644 --> 22:53.926 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in there and it kind of built your confidence up and all of that. 22:54.067 --> 23:00.033 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we made the record and you still had a very reputable booking agent. 23:00.294 --> 23:01.455 [SPEAKER_02]: You had a record 23:01.435 --> 23:12.789 [SPEAKER_02]: Like all that, like, cool, I'm doing this and we're putting out a record like bubble blah, recording, making it for a record as a mom now into really what I view stepping into your power and your ownership. 23:13.309 --> 23:23.341 [SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, the relationship with your booking agent that you've talked on here before, which in my judgment and in my own words was negligent at best abusive at worst. 23:24.523 --> 23:25.764 [SPEAKER_02]: You basically called him out. 23:26.104 --> 23:30.750 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, are you doing something 23:30.730 --> 23:33.115 [SPEAKER_02]: which I'm all in support of. 23:33.155 --> 23:34.217 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was a powerful move. 23:35.199 --> 23:37.864 [SPEAKER_02]: And then ostensibly you did the same thing with your record deal. 23:38.846 --> 23:39.627 [SPEAKER_02]: You're like surprised. 23:39.748 --> 23:40.349 [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a record. 23:40.529 --> 23:40.950 [SPEAKER_02]: It's mixed. 23:41.050 --> 23:41.411 [SPEAKER_02]: It's done. 23:41.431 --> 23:42.633 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, we love it. 23:42.693 --> 23:42.894 [SPEAKER_02]: Great. 23:42.914 --> 23:43.395 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, cool. 23:43.415 --> 23:44.357 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to own my masters. 23:44.757 --> 23:45.759 [SPEAKER_02]: Which they came around to. 23:45.779 --> 23:46.601 [SPEAKER_02]: And they said, cool. 23:46.641 --> 23:48.926 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll do a licensing deal with horrible terms. 23:48.986 --> 23:50.108 [SPEAKER_02]: To what you're like, I'm good. 23:50.148 --> 23:51.551 [SPEAKER_02]: And they let you walk away. 23:51.871 --> 23:52.232 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 23:52.212 --> 23:53.934 [SPEAKER_02]: that's another powerful flex. 23:54.375 --> 24:13.900 [SPEAKER_02]: So you stepped from putting the infrastructure of a team in front to like stepping back into ownership and being the boss and all of that into now being the spot where you've created your whole team and really you're fully steering the campaign, everything about it and now you're a mom twice over with all of that. 24:13.880 --> 24:18.932 [SPEAKER_02]: and in grad school and expanding and all of that, that's a massive shift of self. 24:19.253 --> 24:24.344 [SPEAKER_02]: Does it feel like that long of a book to you in terms of self identity? 24:25.567 --> 24:31.922 [SPEAKER_02]: If you can pull up who you were when you wrote the first song for this record, which I don't even know what was the first song you wrote. 24:31.902 --> 24:33.844 [SPEAKER_00]: think it might have been if your body fails you. 24:34.124 --> 24:38.488 [SPEAKER_00]: I know I started that song on that Europe tour with Georgia. 24:38.828 --> 24:44.433 [SPEAKER_00]: When Georgia was just about to turn to, I started it back stage and the green room at the show in Oxford. 24:44.774 --> 24:58.166 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the difference is, I spent so long really depending on outside forces or people or booking agencies or indie labels. 24:58.226 --> 25:01.909 [SPEAKER_00]: The things that like 25:01.889 --> 25:05.973 [SPEAKER_00]: as my affirmation of like, see, look, the cool agency. 25:06.134 --> 25:06.734 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm with them. 25:06.814 --> 25:08.256 [SPEAKER_00]: So clearly I'm good enough. 25:08.356 --> 25:10.018 [SPEAKER_00]: Like this indie label. 25:10.098 --> 25:10.639 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm with them. 25:10.699 --> 25:21.490 [SPEAKER_00]: So clearly I'm, and then what comes with that is like the team of support and like the camaraderie of other people in the roster and the ends of the festivals and like you're in and losing all of that. 25:21.791 --> 25:25.635 [SPEAKER_00]: But like choosing to lose it because I could have just 25:25.615 --> 25:31.928 [SPEAKER_00]: stayed in those situations by not saying anything and just accepting what was offered. 25:32.069 --> 25:32.870 [SPEAKER_00]: But I pushed back. 25:33.371 --> 25:37.360 [SPEAKER_00]: Was not done in this like, I deserve better and I'm so confident. 25:37.380 --> 25:38.642 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to go out on my own. 25:38.662 --> 25:40.907 [SPEAKER_00]: It was done continually in this like, 25:40.887 --> 25:47.164 [SPEAKER_00]: Second guessing low self confidence, but just so much discomfort. 25:47.485 --> 25:56.348 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like an uphill battle of self empowerment like I feel like I now feel really good But I've spent so much time like 25:56.328 --> 25:59.493 [SPEAKER_00]: feeling rejected and wallowing in that. 26:00.033 --> 26:04.360 [SPEAKER_00]: And I look at life before and after like this record or like motherhood. 26:04.801 --> 26:07.865 [SPEAKER_00]: And I used to feel very much like that's me back there. 26:07.885 --> 26:09.267 [SPEAKER_00]: And what happened to her? 26:09.327 --> 26:12.131 [SPEAKER_00]: And I now feel like through the last few years. 26:12.192 --> 26:18.361 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, that was me and now this is me and liking this version better. 26:18.381 --> 26:20.884 [SPEAKER_00]: So it does feel like a really long book. 26:21.285 --> 26:23.989 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like it's taken me 26:24.239 --> 26:28.946 [SPEAKER_02]: Have you gotten here alongside this record or because of this record? 26:29.386 --> 26:30.949 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, that's a really good question. 26:30.969 --> 26:31.830 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you just think of that? 26:32.691 --> 26:33.432 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm improvising. 26:33.672 --> 26:34.654 [SPEAKER_02]: I got a jazz degree. 26:35.775 --> 26:39.120 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe both because I do think this record has been such a vehicle. 26:39.140 --> 26:39.941 [SPEAKER_02]: It is a vehicle, yeah. 26:39.961 --> 26:45.589 [SPEAKER_00]: For change, like the songs as well as putting the record out of like how to put it out. 26:46.010 --> 26:53.200 [SPEAKER_00]: Choosing to do a Kickstarter, which in the past I had such a challenge with a Kickstarter that I felt like it looked like I was 26:53.180 --> 26:59.311 [SPEAKER_00]: drowning or something and shifting that perspective of it actually being a really empowering thing. 26:59.892 --> 27:10.652 [SPEAKER_00]: Getting to like, pick the people I want to work with, aligning with the people that I feel like really understand and support and also the people I want to support by paying them. 27:10.672 --> 27:13.197 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think alongside and 27:13.177 --> 27:15.620 [SPEAKER_00]: through it, the writing of the songs. 27:16.061 --> 27:31.523 [SPEAKER_00]: I used to think co-writing was kind of like a crutch in a way and this whole record is co-written because I just couldn't write without my friends who wrote the songs with me and now I see so much power and strength and collaboration rather than, no, I do it all by myself. 27:31.672 --> 27:32.234 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that. 27:32.414 --> 27:33.437 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm listening to you say that. 27:33.517 --> 27:43.625 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking about like I'm pretty sure it's either therapy work I did on my own or therapy work that we've done together, but like any health the relationship is like a growth seesaw. 27:44.547 --> 27:46.693 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like there's a little input here and then it's like 27:46.673 --> 27:55.767 [SPEAKER_02]: oh wow there's inspiration that flows on the other side and then that surpasses and it keeps climbing up like that and sounds like that, it's been your relationship with this record. 27:55.968 --> 28:13.896 [SPEAKER_02]: It was times where you making this record was pulling you along and forcing growth on your end and then other times where you're growth and input and conscious decision making and actions then pulled this record along and it's kind of started to turn into a positive feedback loop. 28:13.876 --> 28:21.267 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and especially, I just want to say that so much of that was possible because you were not just cheerleading me along. 28:21.327 --> 28:31.041 [SPEAKER_00]: You were like very kindly and lovingly and supportively, also saying, get your shit together. 28:31.021 --> 28:38.711 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, at some point, you got to stop crying about what happened in the past and get with the picture. 28:38.771 --> 28:42.456 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is what life is, whether we've chosen certain aspects of it or not. 28:42.916 --> 28:47.542 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can make the best of it, or we can be stuck in the past. 28:47.642 --> 28:49.785 [SPEAKER_00]: There's like a narrative that got stuck in my head. 28:49.805 --> 28:51.267 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, things were better back then. 28:51.307 --> 28:59.678 [SPEAKER_00]: And you will like tangibly walk me through all of the ways that life was not better back then. 28:59.658 --> 29:27.876 [SPEAKER_02]: That can be like a slippery slope a few back loop in the opposite direction where if you're so focused on how it was then inevitably the good back then starts to become good or and the bad now becomes even more magnified and I saw that happening and so it's just trying to like stick a stick in the spokes and be like whoa slow down here I'm going to said to you as that's not what to share with everybody else that's like downstairs in our play room there's all of these posters on the wall. 29:27.856 --> 29:39.786 [SPEAKER_02]: I think all but one of them is from let's say post pandemic when you're words when you're career ended and I'm sitting there like in that room playing with our kids hearing you talk about how your career is over. 29:39.826 --> 29:48.114 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though you just got back from tour and I'm looking at posters for like hardly strictly bluegrass festival, Boneru, Kayao, Bo, Mountain Stage, folks fest. 29:48.194 --> 29:52.077 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a couple of them even for getting all of which happened after this date. 29:53.018 --> 29:57.762 [SPEAKER_02]: And so is out of like loving compassion that it's like this all happened 29:57.742 --> 30:09.705 [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that I do like not out of being no it all, but from having like lived that experience and like missing out on the present and what's here and what actually is better because I've seen every crack in the road along the way. 30:09.886 --> 30:15.717 [SPEAKER_00]: Well and I think what I've what I continually am learning is that sometimes. 30:15.697 --> 30:30.820 [SPEAKER_00]: our creative work when it's within an industry or a scene or a community can become this currency or this way that we're looking at it to be a way for us to feel affirmed in life, to be validated. 30:30.800 --> 30:45.055 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I've been seeing is that no outside validation is going to be enough to make me feel included or a part of things or a legit or whatever if I don't feel it inside. 30:45.155 --> 30:56.487 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that proof of all the festivals I've booked or all the tours I've been on, still didn't make me feel like others were telling me, yeah you're in with us. 30:56.467 --> 31:04.848 [SPEAKER_00]: you are a valid musician in our community, even though we take you on tour, you're on these festival billions with your actual heroes. 31:04.888 --> 31:13.409 [SPEAKER_00]: I think someone's festival with my name is literally under Emilu Harris, and because of just the fixation, also the power I gave one person. 31:13.449 --> 31:14.391 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. 31:14.371 --> 31:20.940 [SPEAKER_00]: who told me I wasn't worthy enough at that point and that destroyed everything. 31:21.020 --> 31:28.970 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this journey has also taught me that of just how dangerous it is to put power in anybody's hands. 31:29.090 --> 31:34.477 [SPEAKER_00]: Even when they have tangible power of like getting new access, it doesn't matter. 31:34.517 --> 31:37.982 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't give them the emotional power over you. 31:37.962 --> 31:40.325 [SPEAKER_02]: No, don't put anybody on a pedestal even yourself. 31:40.886 --> 31:46.613 [SPEAKER_02]: In this specific case with his booking agent, yes, everybody knows who he is, every venue knows who he is. 31:47.094 --> 31:49.036 [SPEAKER_02]: He has book shows at every single venue. 31:49.337 --> 31:50.338 [SPEAKER_02]: But he wasn't for you. 31:50.739 --> 31:53.282 [SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't booking tours that we were coming home rich. 31:53.703 --> 31:55.265 [SPEAKER_02]: Even on the in one of things were great. 31:55.645 --> 31:55.865 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 31:55.885 --> 31:59.490 [SPEAKER_02]: Bunny years for those not watching like he wasn't good at his job. 32:00.071 --> 32:00.592 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, yeah. 32:00.652 --> 32:03.295 [SPEAKER_02]: For you, the big things that he gets for big artists, 32:03.275 --> 32:18.297 [SPEAKER_00]: Or like I could send an email on behalf of that artist and book them all those shows because it's the artist and not him, but I think the lesson also to be shared is that we can put too much focus on the names of like, oh, these are the agencies you want to be a part of and like, 32:18.277 --> 32:47.895 [SPEAKER_00]: This lesser-known boutique agency is like, it's too folksier, it's not legit enough, or so it doesn't look cool, or you feel a little embarrassed, and I've learned all that matters is the relationship you have with the person, because if the person understands who you are as an artist and cares about you and your life, that is more powerful than the top name at the best-known agency who has access to everything, because if they don't care about you, or they don't 32:47.875 --> 32:53.042 [SPEAKER_00]: or care to know you or care about your family or you as a person, it's more damaging. 32:53.082 --> 32:53.843 [SPEAKER_03]: For sure. 32:53.903 --> 32:56.686 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to help your career to sacrifice that. 32:56.967 --> 32:58.789 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've learned over and over again. 32:58.829 --> 33:08.922 [SPEAKER_00]: Work with the people that you feel safe with that you don't feel nervous to tell them I can't do this because my family life is a priority, or 33:08.902 --> 33:15.311 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to do this or you don't even feel comfortable to speak up in certain ways about like, well actually I want to do this. 33:15.692 --> 33:20.118 [SPEAKER_00]: That's I think for the public and especially for any artist of any age. 33:20.539 --> 33:22.922 [SPEAKER_00]: The shiny things are not the best things. 33:23.103 --> 33:30.353 [SPEAKER_02]: So yesterday I was interviewed by a student at MTSU Middle Tennessee State University. 33:30.393 --> 33:34.960 [SPEAKER_02]: He's a freshman 33:34.940 --> 33:40.605 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you listen to our show or not, but he asked me like, what do you wish you knew when you started on this as a career? 33:40.805 --> 33:42.107 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we asked that question too. 33:42.287 --> 33:42.927 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a good question. 33:43.148 --> 33:54.038 [SPEAKER_02]: And even though we asked that every week, it's not one that I think of much, and what came out, I think of Plasier, I was like, I think the faster that you can learn the difference between assumption and intuition. 33:54.578 --> 34:02.145 [SPEAKER_02]: And the sharper you can make your radar for that, the better, 34:02.125 --> 34:05.491 [SPEAKER_02]: You can assume that like because this person is a big name, they can get me all of these things. 34:06.313 --> 34:12.143 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can assume like because I only know two people on this person's roster, they can't get me anything and it's a bad look. 34:12.764 --> 34:13.546 [SPEAKER_02]: That's an assumption. 34:13.586 --> 34:16.251 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're automatically like boxing yourself in. 34:16.291 --> 34:21.039 [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas like if you listen to your intuition, it's like, my gut says this is not a good direction to go. 34:21.080 --> 34:23.003 [SPEAKER_02]: My gut says this is a good direction to go. 34:22.983 --> 34:24.325 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a hard thing to differentiate. 34:24.345 --> 34:25.908 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm still working on that. 34:26.228 --> 34:32.558 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like, is my gut talk here, is my gut like wrapped in a candy coated layer of my ego being like, no, this is the right choice. 34:32.578 --> 34:49.345 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because also your gut sometimes is an activated when you're blinded by wanting to succeed and wanting to feel worthy and someone's coming along that you think has the power to do that for you and you're not personally in a place yet to understand the 34:49.325 --> 35:01.763 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think about like the stories of Dolly Parton, you know, where she wouldn't sell, I will always love you to Elvis because they were going to own the publishing and she was like no. 35:02.163 --> 35:05.187 [SPEAKER_00]: And she did not know what was going to happen in her life. 35:05.508 --> 35:09.594 [SPEAKER_00]: She had a feeling, but she was just like no, I'm not giving away my publishing. 35:09.794 --> 35:15.602 [SPEAKER_00]: And what 20 some years later plus was when I always love you became a massive hit. 35:15.582 --> 35:20.271 [SPEAKER_00]: I grew up thinking like, or whenever time I heard that story, I'm going to be like that. 35:20.612 --> 35:25.121 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to have the self-knowledge and strength and belief to be like dolly pardon. 35:25.481 --> 35:27.225 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have learned, I have not! 35:29.549 --> 35:36.122 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay, because we have the lessons that we're supposed to learn in this life, but I do 35:36.102 --> 35:51.337 [SPEAKER_00]: think it's even more exciting when you realize you choose yourself and your story is not yet finished but you choose yourself even when it's been scary or hard and start to see the way that life is growing in the way you hoped it would. 35:51.517 --> 35:52.660 [SPEAKER_00]: Where with this record 35:52.640 --> 35:54.983 [SPEAKER_00]: right before we started recording these are the days. 35:55.563 --> 36:15.127 [SPEAKER_00]: I said, and I probably told this on here, I've definitely written about it on my sub-stack, but I said to a million different people, but namely my therapist and my mom, I said, if someone could just tell me everything's going to be okay, I would get out of my record deal, self release this record on my own record label. 36:15.187 --> 36:20.653 [SPEAKER_00]: I would go to grad school, and I would have a second baby. 36:21.094 --> 36:22.275 [SPEAKER_00]: And my mom said, 36:22.255 --> 36:23.257 [SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna be okay. 36:25.643 --> 36:28.029 [SPEAKER_00]: And every one of those things has happened. 36:28.330 --> 36:32.881 [SPEAKER_00]: Do I have millions of dollars and like out of this world's success like Dolly Parton? 36:33.363 --> 36:38.796 [SPEAKER_00]: Not yet, but if this is as good as it gets, it's pretty fucking great. 36:38.776 --> 36:39.277 [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. 36:39.697 --> 37:03.062 [SPEAKER_00]: That was a big realization I had the other day of we kind of operate in the music world of thinking like, oh this next record is going to be the one, it's going to change my life or people talk about like, oh that song changed my life and you asked me every day now that I'm in album campaign mode, what are you hoping for with this record, why are you doing this, what are you doing this for, and I'm like, oh I'm not hoping for a life change, like I love my life, I love our life. 37:03.042 --> 37:19.951 [SPEAKER_00]: We're doing all the things we've dreamed of doing, where planning our growth and move to New England, building a bigger studio, we're owning all of our work, we're working together, we're building my coaching business, we have our family, like all of my dreams are this, do I have millions of dollars in my famous? 37:20.432 --> 37:24.038 [SPEAKER_00]: No, but maybe that actually was in a vital part of the dream. 37:24.018 --> 37:25.400 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a powerful realization. 37:25.941 --> 37:26.202 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 37:26.502 --> 37:29.628 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that your mom would early set everything's going to be okay. 37:29.888 --> 37:30.109 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 37:30.369 --> 37:33.595 [SPEAKER_02]: But your mom and I both know that like we can tell you things a thousand times. 37:33.695 --> 37:35.218 [SPEAKER_02]: And it just flies through the net. 37:35.238 --> 37:38.664 [SPEAKER_02]: So did anybody tell you everything's going to be okay? 37:38.684 --> 37:42.651 [SPEAKER_02]: Or did you make all of these decisions and pivots regardless of that? 37:42.631 --> 37:57.703 [SPEAKER_00]: My therapist said, what would it rob you of if someone told you it was going to be okay and gave you that guarantee before you decided to do things you wanted to do and I was like, well, rob me of my learning of my resilience, myself. 37:57.683 --> 37:59.146 [SPEAKER_00]: belief, my abilities. 37:59.206 --> 38:01.271 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, nobody told me it was going to be okay. 38:01.532 --> 38:03.716 [SPEAKER_00]: My mom said where there's a will, there's a way. 38:04.177 --> 38:06.062 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to do it, you can figure it out. 38:06.462 --> 38:15.743 [SPEAKER_00]: And the confidence of our partnership, you saying, even with grad school, you were like, are you sure you want to add this to your plate? 38:15.723 --> 38:24.695 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I've taken it off my plate for this quarter, like maneuvering constantly of like, these are the big things we want to do when do we want to do them? 38:24.735 --> 38:26.397 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have to all happen at the same time. 38:26.457 --> 38:33.487 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, nobody told me I was going to be okay other than you being like, I'm willing to try with you. 38:33.507 --> 38:40.737 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I can't do anything without you fully on board because we are live partners and we have two children. 38:41.838 --> 38:44.802 [SPEAKER_02]: So many logistics. 38:44.782 --> 38:46.366 [SPEAKER_01]: So many logistics. 38:46.787 --> 38:52.222 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it might have the whole time we're talking like, is anything ever okay and does it matter if it's okay or not? 38:52.343 --> 38:52.643 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 38:52.844 --> 38:56.935 [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a roof over your head and you can put flu on your plate, you're okay. 38:57.438 --> 39:17.259 [SPEAKER_02]: Given the state of the world, maybe that's the bare bones that we need to focus on, but really, every high point in my life, if I kind of flip through in my head what I today, deem as my highlight reel, which is probably different than what by highlight reel was yesterday and it's gonna be different, but for any given point if I look at my highlight reel, it wasn't flawless. 39:17.759 --> 39:26.128 [SPEAKER_02]: There's some highlights that come to my head where my personal life was a dumpster fire 39:28.015 --> 39:28.797 [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean? 39:28.817 --> 39:34.772 [SPEAKER_02]: And vice versa, there's been times in my life where me as a human being have been at my high point. 39:35.133 --> 39:37.218 [SPEAKER_02]: My career has been nothing. 39:38.000 --> 39:39.323 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes those are like connected. 39:40.125 --> 39:43.273 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like most like a human because I care at least about my career. 39:43.372 --> 39:52.868 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think about when my mom was in a coma and we didn't know what she was going to come out like, and my dad just kept saying, it's going to be okay. 39:52.888 --> 39:53.649 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be okay. 39:54.210 --> 39:59.960 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would get angry because I'm like, you don't know if it's going to be okay, but in hindsight, was it okay? 40:00.280 --> 40:01.482 [SPEAKER_00]: It was what it was. 40:01.462 --> 40:27.952 [SPEAKER_01]: It was not okay to me what's happened to my mom or so many different things that have happened in the last five years are giving birth without my mom there But we survived and there's also like really really beautiful stuff that happened amongst the noddle k-things So yeah, the like is it going to be okay is such an interesting question that I probably won't ask anymore I agree. 40:28.172 --> 40:29.834 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it needs to be asked. 40:30.215 --> 40:30.675 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah 40:30.892 --> 40:49.589 [SPEAKER_02]: Everything, at least in my experience, and in my reading and thinking and talking and asking, like everything in this world craves stasis, whether it's like hard physical bodies, or that ecosystem, whatever, everything is constantly trying to land in balance. 40:49.609 --> 40:53.693 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether we wanted to or not, everything lands in balance, so like everything is going to be okay. 40:54.114 --> 40:57.296 [SPEAKER_02]: Is it gonna be fun or easy or quick to get there? 40:57.397 --> 40:58.958 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, no. 40:59.258 --> 41:10.662 [SPEAKER_02]: Where we are now in our careers in our personal life and our family life like all of that like the last six years have been fucking rough But I don't I don't know if I would do it differently. 41:12.105 --> 41:19.461 [SPEAKER_02]: I Think we are who we are and we're doing what we're doing and we have people that we have because of everything that happened I know that's like super cliche, but like 41:19.576 --> 41:20.338 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I agree. 41:20.539 --> 41:24.650 [SPEAKER_02]: Like my gosh, if last six years were squeaky clean, like smooth. 41:24.810 --> 41:25.091 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 41:25.311 --> 41:28.580 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think about how different my art feels. 41:28.681 --> 41:32.511 [SPEAKER_00]: I think about, you know, my mom is such a wise sage. 41:32.752 --> 41:35.138 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, like I would have loved to not. 41:35.118 --> 41:45.419 [SPEAKER_00]: have her suffer in the way that she has, but she's even pointed out the beauty or the gold in her not being available through us becoming parents. 41:45.739 --> 41:52.553 [SPEAKER_00]: It could be argued that it really solidified our partnership and our co-parenting and the way that we did not 41:52.533 --> 41:55.621 [SPEAKER_00]: really lean on anybody but each other outside. 41:55.661 --> 42:05.806 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say like with discount, we had immense support from our community and your parents as well as my family to the best that they could but like both children being born, it was us. 42:06.488 --> 42:09.495 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody was in this house with us. 42:09.475 --> 42:23.144 [SPEAKER_00]: And just like the way that we've grown and the trust that we've built and the way that we've gotten to know ourselves and our community and what we want and think about the way I've gotten to know my parents differently through this time. 42:23.184 --> 42:28.716 [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much that I wouldn't want to be different in some things. 42:28.915 --> 42:49.606 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think to bring it back to this record, these are the days in really focusing on you always say, like, a record is a record of a time way more than it is a career move or a time of critical acclaim or a time of economic growth or whatever, like financial growth, it's a record of a time in life. 42:49.666 --> 42:53.151 [SPEAKER_00]: And this record really represents this time in our life. 42:53.131 --> 43:09.716 [SPEAKER_00]: in such a beautiful whole way, I'm curious, and now sharing it with the world, what are you most excited about in that sharing and also what are some of your favorite memories of the actual making of the record? 43:09.997 --> 43:15.746 [SPEAKER_02]: Favorite memories of making the whole record is just like the crew of people that were in here for the basic tracking. 43:16.246 --> 43:17.248 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so fun. 43:17.380 --> 43:24.393 [SPEAKER_02]: And the whole approach, I mean, so we had five of us, including you here for the basic tracking myself on drums. 43:24.794 --> 43:32.789 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and Bittal on bass, John McNally on electric guitar and pedal steel and Seth Taylor on acoustic guitar. 43:32.829 --> 43:36.857 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're watching, I'm pointing to where they physically were sitting in the room here. 43:36.837 --> 43:58.407 [SPEAKER_02]: and mandolin and all things acoustically strong and that was just such a fun crew to carve these songs out with and create but then instead of doing overdubs like one person at a time we did everything with multiple people in the room so when we brought Ethan Ballinger in on lead guitar and Jimmy Matt Rowland on all things keyboards they were here at the same time to add that layer together 43:58.387 --> 44:00.813 [SPEAKER_00]: That was also uniquely fun experience. 44:03.619 --> 44:09.232 [SPEAKER_02]: Both wonderful unique people in their own right and you put the two of them together. 44:09.272 --> 44:13.662 [SPEAKER_00]: Insanely talented and also very interesting minds. 44:13.642 --> 44:14.484 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 44:14.504 --> 44:18.593 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we did two sets of background vocal sessions. 44:19.054 --> 44:23.644 [SPEAKER_02]: One was Lyle DeVinsky and Shishana, which was really fun having them sing together and work together. 44:23.724 --> 44:31.321 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we had for the majority of the record Oliver Beats Craven and Lauren Bell throat singing together, which were two of my favorite voices. 44:31.361 --> 44:33.085 [SPEAKER_00]: Them together is incredible. 44:33.065 --> 44:37.595 [SPEAKER_02]: not only having all that energy in the room, but getting to carve these parts out together as a group. 44:38.055 --> 44:47.816 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was really special that when we got to vocals, we spent three or four days on your lead vocal, didn't rush anything, and it was just you and I. I felt that was really intimate and nice. 44:48.197 --> 44:50.562 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I feel like Georgia was here all day for everything. 44:50.582 --> 44:52.626 [SPEAKER_02]: I know she was like, well, she was like, 44:52.606 --> 44:54.789 [SPEAKER_02]: She feels she was just here hanging out. 44:54.809 --> 44:59.757 [SPEAKER_00]: She was here for some of the end of the backing vocals I remember because I was in the vocal booth with her. 44:59.777 --> 45:16.082 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of her biggest things that she misses right now about having a baby brother is that When we would do podcast interviews or recording, she would come in and get to have a big snack tray and the vocal booth would be a big cozy corner with like lamb skins and blankies and 45:16.062 --> 45:20.793 [SPEAKER_00]: Salt rock land rock and she'd get to watch her TV shows with her headphones. 45:20.853 --> 45:23.559 [SPEAKER_00]: And now that we have Henry, we can't do that. 45:24.100 --> 45:25.523 [SPEAKER_02]: There's always a babysitter here now. 45:26.025 --> 45:30.054 [SPEAKER_00]: So she's like, I want to come in the vocal, but yeah, so she or her presence was here. 45:31.076 --> 45:31.637 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, how about you? 45:31.657 --> 45:32.780 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was the favorite memory. 45:32.980 --> 45:34.223 [SPEAKER_02]: Like the making of the record. 45:34.203 --> 45:38.470 [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny that like you had said, I always drag out making a record. 45:38.650 --> 45:44.900 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make this quickly in some dense period, which we did until we very much didn't, which that was out of our control. 45:45.020 --> 45:46.322 [SPEAKER_02]: That was like more in the business end. 45:46.783 --> 45:51.891 [SPEAKER_02]: But so in the condensed time of making this record, which was four weeks, maybe. 45:51.871 --> 45:54.598 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was just like being with the musicians. 45:54.638 --> 46:00.414 [SPEAKER_00]: It was so fun to be creative in that way and hear the different parts. 46:00.634 --> 46:05.066 [SPEAKER_00]: It was also the first time I had an acoustic player on a record that was like just a designated. 46:05.126 --> 46:07.011 [SPEAKER_02]: And man, if you pick an acoustic player, holy shit. 46:06.991 --> 46:11.297 [SPEAKER_00]: and Seth Taylor is out of this world currently in Post Malone's Band. 46:11.497 --> 46:12.899 [SPEAKER_02]: And on every record that you hear. 46:13.099 --> 46:16.384 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's just incredible and also just like everybody's energy. 46:16.444 --> 46:21.190 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's playing was great, but everyone's personality and energy was just so open and loving. 46:21.211 --> 46:25.236 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was probably some of my favorite times and hearing. 46:25.216 --> 46:49.486 [SPEAKER_00]: these songs come to life and Ethan's guitar parts like I remember on if your body fails you having like an emotional release like we both did afterwards and hearing his guitar part on that those are probably some of my favorite oh and my favorite which thankfully I have on video is when we brought Georgia in to listen to that's what I tell Georgia and she hurt. 46:49.507 --> 46:49.907 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna cry again. 46:49.887 --> 46:51.815 [SPEAKER_01]: She heard her name in this all. 46:52.297 --> 46:52.738 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 46:52.758 --> 46:53.742 [SPEAKER_01]: I got so excited. 46:53.762 --> 46:55.429 [SPEAKER_01]: That was probably my favorite part. 46:55.449 --> 46:57.136 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I remember she's in here in her PJs. 46:57.537 --> 46:57.678 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 46:57.698 --> 46:59.204 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was like the winter, so it was already dark. 46:59.244 --> 47:01.011 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was like nice warm light in here. 47:01.092 --> 47:03.015 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she heard you say daddy. 47:03.355 --> 47:17.217 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, she heard me say it's like seeing daddy listen down the hall and she was like, oh, you And then her name those things feel so special regardless of anything else that happens with this music. 47:17.657 --> 47:22.645 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as you know, we like to be very conscious of our guests time. 47:22.625 --> 47:23.546 [SPEAKER_01]: And I listen to it. 47:23.987 --> 47:24.307 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 47:24.748 --> 47:28.753 [SPEAKER_02]: So those of you that have listened to the show before another week end with the same question. 47:29.234 --> 47:32.078 [SPEAKER_02]: But because we're doing this all different, this is a big experiment right now. 47:32.178 --> 47:36.304 [SPEAKER_02]: Normally our question is something along the lines of, what do you wish you knew when you got started in the screen? 47:36.564 --> 47:45.056 [SPEAKER_02]: This is where flipping the whole script on this, I'm interested in knowing if you could tell yourself a year from now, something, what would you tell yourself a year from now? 47:45.236 --> 47:48.160 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you hope you know a year from now? 47:48.140 --> 47:51.966 [SPEAKER_02]: because this episode is airing after the record is out. 47:52.106 --> 47:57.894 [SPEAKER_02]: You can go listen to it right now, shameless plug, but we're recording this a month before it actually is released. 47:58.335 --> 47:59.977 [SPEAKER_00]: So right here from now, what do I hope I know? 48:00.158 --> 48:00.378 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 48:00.899 --> 48:02.000 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be okay. 48:05.986 --> 48:09.912 [SPEAKER_02]: We've had tears of sadness, tears of joy, tears of fear. 48:13.638 --> 48:22.374 [SPEAKER_00]: In that, I think like the thing that you are constantly trying to remind me of when my go to is stress and anxiety is just enjoy it all. 48:22.775 --> 48:23.536 [SPEAKER_00]: Just enjoy it all. 48:23.717 --> 48:28.005 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope a year from now, I am able to enjoy all of it. 48:28.866 --> 48:34.617 [SPEAKER_00]: They can enjoy the stress of putting out a record, packing up a house, moving. 48:34.597 --> 48:44.508 [SPEAKER_00]: finding a new property and building the thing that we've been talking about since we were like 21 years old and just enjoy all of it. 48:44.828 --> 48:47.110 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be so cheesy, but I'm going to say it. 48:47.251 --> 48:52.817 [SPEAKER_00]: I really do think that these are the days that we're going to look back on and be like, that was the time in life. 48:53.277 --> 48:53.617 [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. 48:54.018 --> 48:56.060 [SPEAKER_02]: I tried to be conscious of that all the time. 48:56.501 --> 48:57.021 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 48:57.041 --> 48:58.983 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like joy and sadness. 49:00.004 --> 49:00.144 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 49:00.164 --> 49:00.705 [SPEAKER_00]: What about you? 49:00.837 --> 49:02.359 [SPEAKER_02]: What do I hope I know a year from now? 49:02.900 --> 49:03.000 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 49:03.020 --> 49:06.184 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it's more like moving out of my head into my heart. 49:06.485 --> 49:29.477 [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that I feel and know in my heart that the decisions that I'm making currently and the choices that I'm making were in full presence and consciousness and intentional and not guided by ego or fear or running away from something. 49:29.575 --> 49:30.356 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like you are? 49:30.637 --> 49:32.359 [SPEAKER_02]: For sure, I just hope it stays there. 49:32.860 --> 49:51.106 [SPEAKER_02]: I tend to, in times of hardship or struggle, instability, I think in a very human way, reach for the wall of the elevator shaft, as I'm falling, because I have a tangible grasp on something when I grab on, I'm like, nope, this is it, this is great, and I hope I enjoy the fall. 49:51.126 --> 49:58.637 [SPEAKER_02]: If there's one, and just be like nope, it's all shaking out, and this is the hurricane that we set in motion, and here we go. 49:58.617 --> 50:12.796 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't know if what we're going to do is going to work, but even though like sharing, we talked about this of like sharing it as we're in process is holding ourselves accountable without being driven by ego. 50:12.816 --> 50:23.110 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be ego driven to be like we're going to do this thing secretly and like try to still seem like we're in the mix in Nashville and not show anybody until we're like, look, we did it. 50:23.371 --> 50:27.156 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we've explicitly said that we're moving 50:27.457 --> 50:28.779 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, we're moving. 50:29.119 --> 50:30.001 [SPEAKER_02]: We're moving to New Zealand. 50:31.042 --> 50:32.063 [SPEAKER_00]: To build a compound. 50:33.385 --> 50:35.709 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, build a whole creative space in the middle of the woods. 50:36.309 --> 50:44.421 [SPEAKER_00]: To have retreats in community and all things not on the internet and AI, even though this conversation lives on the internet and we need the internet. 50:44.441 --> 50:45.662 [SPEAKER_02]: Everything everywhere all at once. 50:46.003 --> 50:48.887 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks for taking the time to sit down with us today. 50:48.907 --> 50:49.768 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everyone. 50:50.649 --> 50:51.511 [SPEAKER_02]: What an experiment. 50:51.871 --> 50:53.433 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is fun. 50:53.453 --> 50:53.974 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll do it again. 50:54.455 --> 50:56.097 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe in another 100 episodes or so. 50:56.347 --> 50:58.506 [SPEAKER_00]: I think next year we should do it a year, check in. 50:58.869 --> 51:00.805 [SPEAKER_02]: Deal, see you later. 51:00.825 --> 51:00.906 [UNKNOWN]: Bye. 51:03.586 --> 51:06.990 [SPEAKER_02]: We know your time is valuable, and we're greatly chose to spend this hour with us. 51:07.330 --> 51:10.954 [SPEAKER_00]: If this conversation resonated with you, know that it is just one of many. 51:11.234 --> 51:13.837 [SPEAKER_00]: We have an archive of over 140 conversations. 51:13.937 --> 51:28.513 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're looking for a way to go to next, you can find curated playlists by topic on our YouTube channel or simply scroll back in the speed to find our conversations with Rose and Cash, New York Times by selling author Maggie Smith, Lucius, JD Mitherson, and many others. 51:28.493 --> 51:32.059 [SPEAKER_02]: This shows produced by me, Mary Shaveford-based, with help from the Kalaan. 51:32.500 --> 51:35.565 [SPEAKER_02]: And all the music he hears written, performed and produced by me as well. 51:35.905 --> 51:43.157 [SPEAKER_00]: Our show is edited and mixed by Leland Holden at Pod Punch and we are proud numbers of the Bluegrass situation podcast network. 51:43.177 --> 51:43.939 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being here. 51:44.339 --> 51:45.321 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you next time.