[SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever just want to throw a dog in front of a car or maybe just watch somebody else do it and we have a special for you today.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are talking about Punisher one last kill.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to another episode of Friends From Work, a podcast about all things in the Marvel Cinematic Universe hosted by myself, Kyle Skoneville, and my longtime friend from work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those crack me up so much, because we don't rehearse what the little tag hook is gonna be.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I said, do you have one this week?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you've done like two or three now and every time it just gives me.
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you thriving this week?
[SPEAKER_02]: Rob in life?
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you thriving?
[SPEAKER_01]: Good good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I last night.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a deep cut for for a long time listeners here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to a Dave Matthews band concert.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my goodness gracious.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like always, just really, really fills your cup, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the thing about Dave Matthews, and I'm not going to go stupid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Matthews would not fill my cup to be fair, which is totally fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's totally fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not your ridiculous thing, but it's like, it's just this like 12 person band.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are all those very good at their respective instruments and just having a blast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're a PlayStation name like Dave Matthews, that's the deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dave fan the deep cut.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like a Dave here's here's the way that these things progress.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm realizing I was a Dave Matthews fan in high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what happens like in your 20s is you fully understand like you're you're you're too aware of what's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you wind up stripping all that stuff away and then I think a lot of your 30s is is just kind of reclaiming the things that that you originally liked and then told yourself you didn't have permission to listen so true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my friend Grant too, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like he was one of those people that once arcade fire won their Grammy, now they weren't cool anymore, because they were being recognized.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I remember, yeah, we were such music snubs at age 22.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are a lesser person because you listened to Dave Matthews and let me tell you why.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then yeah, like by the time we were 32, you're like, this call me maybe song kind of rocks.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what to tell you, like it's kind of awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just more like, you know, I think that that's the case with, with Marvel too, in a lot of ways, it's like you can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, look at that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's why I think the conversation has been so different depending on the year and the phase and, and like, if you are,
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're trying to do the thing that is defensible and cool, then yeah, like there are moments where marbles that and then they're going to be moments when it's not that and it's like if you like it and you have fun with it, then just like enjoy liking it and having fun with it doesn't have to be like a whole thing that that you either enjoy like ironically or
[SPEAKER_01]: that you like, it's so I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think going to things like that, wherever everyone's just having a great time and it's just so silly and like, I've told you, guys, there's like a 20 minute flute solo at one time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it was just like, and it was so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was so good, and everybody was like losing their minds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, there was a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a
[SPEAKER_02]: I know right and it's not like you like constants are not really a huge part of my life anymore and I kind of need them to be, but well, you've now gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they've been, they've, they have both been.
[SPEAKER_01]: things that I sort of I did at Candace's insistence, uh, because she thinks that I got real quiet.
[SPEAKER_02]: You said that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Too, uh, insistent.
[SPEAKER_02]: I blank twice if she's right behind you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I spend, uh, I've maybe spent too much time on a work, things.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I can't be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it allegedly, but you know what, it is like frank and listen to a little bit here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's man.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I think the value of stuff like that and in some ways it I think that I had to get some distance from playing music professionally to enjoy concerts in this way again because it's really hard to to not think through that lens of when you're like constantly on stage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, oh, like, I liked the way that they did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I liked that transition.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like, oh, that didn't really work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or like, that sounds a little bit off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just filtering it all through your, like, critic mind, which is also why it, like, playing Nashville shows was always kind of terrible because your whole audience is that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when I do that, I do think aging and maturing like you started with is the most of one thing, though, even more than that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause I'm still in the professional music and I'm starting to join you in that like, concerts are becoming fun again and I can just appreciate like I never would have used to like see a country player on Broadway,
[SPEAKER_02]: And think like, oh, that's my scene or you know, I would have been, I would have been critiquing like you're saying, but now I'm able to just go holy crap that guys unbelievable and get enjoyment out of what he's doing more, it just on it, you're right, yeah professional music for sure, but I think the aging and just maturing a little bit is more the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's sort of a forced reset and in a way in that you're just you're kind of like.
[SPEAKER_01]: you're in this room with a bunch of people that you probably wouldn't be in a room with otherwise and there's this like one kind of unifying thing where someone's performing whatever and I just think it's like if it's a good show and a fun show, it kind of like gets you out of whatever rut you're in at least for the moment and so I think that there's something to be said.
[SPEAKER_01]: about like I mean it's why you know I think going to the movie theater can do something similar like just something about like actually kind of having to to like shut down whatever program your brain has been running and like run something else and just kind of like I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it also matters a tiny bit for work.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something a little
[SPEAKER_02]: at this studio for like X amount of hours, and not, it being in my house or just quite pulled my computer up all the time or whatever so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so how about you though?
[SPEAKER_02]: How about we'll hobbit us wearing the same shirt basically today?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, it's a very similar culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you one thing that's been fun, tied to concerts, is that my daughter has gotten really into them.
[SPEAKER_02]: We used to think that she was a little overly sensitive to loud things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fireworks, concerts, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not her thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the last couple of years, she's just blossomed into being obsessed with concerts.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyone listening out there shout out to Disney's descendants and zombies?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: because we've been listening to those songs so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's actually never seen the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: She makes my wife watch the show because she doesn't want to watch it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then tell her what's happening during the song.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she's memorized the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're probably now going to go to the world's collide tour.
[SPEAKER_02]: If anyone out there knows I'm talking about like Johanna, you probably know what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna go to this world's collide tour and she's obsessed with the songs, but a couple times the last week We went to like a pizza place called e-snational brew works where they had like a live band outside and we thought We walked and we thought oh, it's gonna be a little too loud.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, she was she gets up front in center and like uncomfortably stands right in front of the artist Yeah, and she dances Oh, that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: She loves it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we give her like a couple bucks to go tip in the bucket
[SPEAKER_02]: And then last week for Mother's Day, we were at a restaurant.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a country girl singing.
[SPEAKER_02]: She stood in front of her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She asked if she'd go up there.
[SPEAKER_02]: She stood there the whole time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Got her autograph?
[SPEAKER_02]: Thought it was so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man, that's not a good one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're thriving in that, yeah, she's now loving concert.
[SPEAKER_02]: So on a con, I have been having conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: We made it to take her to a few more things like shows in general.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know where it's coming from, but like we watched the world's collide to her on Disney Plus as our show now at home all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like so disappointed that Freya and Kylie Cantrell aren't going to be at the National Concert.
[SPEAKER_02]: Apparently it's probably different.
[UNKNOWN]: People.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we got to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really brings a lot of joy to my heart.
[SPEAKER_02]: The the Punisher special brought a lot of something to my heart for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's get into the Punisher special presentation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's our first impressions and Robbie honestly because it was so short, like my first impressions are kind of going to be tied to friendly feedback pretty natural here, so we're going to knock out two things at once.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't talked to you about it at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, okay, so incredibly violent.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, well done, looked amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was well acted appropriate for what they're going for.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I realized this isn't really my cup of tea.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just gonna be totally transparent and say, this is probably the line.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if all listeners are always wondering, like what is the line?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is probably it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like I was literally laughing in the middle at one point because I was like this is so over the top It was almost as if there were like you want to see this guy kill a bunch of people We're gonna give you 20 minutes of almost like a video game.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know like a zombie it was like a video game Yeah, yeah, we're just like even the way you would like pick up and reload the weapons felt like a video game Yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it was I mean it was awesome like as a guy who plays Call of Duty.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love seeing him like mess with the AK 47 and how he has to read out it and all this stuff, but Wow, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just look I liked it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea what the impression has been from other people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what the response is going to my guess is that this is going to be like
[SPEAKER_02]: an 82% in that it was a little short to kind of do all the emotional beats they want for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But well-made, well-acted, and I'm just kind of acknowledging at the offset here, right at the beginning that this isn't really my cup of tea.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, man, I thought it was so strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: The word that kept coming,
[SPEAKER_01]: up in my mind was uneven like because there were parts of that special that were like some of the best burnt thul work I've seen like the the scene when he's sitting at the grave like the first time when when he's just like when he's especially when it's focused on him like there are a couple flashes and and he's sort of thinking about it like that really got me and
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I love, he's just an actor that I love watching, and I really like the way he kind of embodies this character, I think he brought something specific for this, and I think that sort of sums up like the two things that I, well, one of the two things that that I thought worked really well about the special and that was kind of his, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: the turn of I'm no longer the guy that is just trying to get payback.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm now the guy that's going to try to actually kind of protect people.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of the same turn that like Pattinson's Batman gets at the end of that movie when he kind of goes from being just the like I'm going to
[SPEAKER_01]: like take down the bad guys to more I'm going to actually kind of protect the good guys or like the innocent people and I thought that they handled that well and that had a lot of resonance and then the other piece that I thought was really fun and handled well was the actual like the final sequence of him in the
[SPEAKER_01]: building and everybody coming for him and just the kind of like one or style things in there we're really fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like both the like the action, the choreography was great, but also what Burnthal was bringing to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like those things, I think, are probably the heart of the special and those are the things that I thought were really, really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And really, like if you're wanting something from the Punisher, I would think that's kind of what you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay on the friendly feedback side on the what didn't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think two things one I understand the story they were telling and I agree with those what worked very effective.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I a little bit felt like.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was so short.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why I was thinking it was gonna be like an hour and 15 kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't have that in my head, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's kind of dumb because I looked it up and were both by night and Guardians of the Galaxy holiday were the same thing, like 40 and 49 minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I just... Yeah, just because of the things I had read about this, it kind of mean, it felt almost like a,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, like, like, a movie-length thing in kind of the way that I had seen Burntell talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think that had any real reason for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they also didn't market it as a full link, so that's on us a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think if it had been a feature like thing, you know, you would have seen a lot more about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what did work, it definitely felt like one comic issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like not a whole book, you felt like if you were just looking at what's one story of a Punisher thing, here's the one issue, and so in that way, I think the tight time run, run time was fine, and worked pretty well, and in that way, I definitely think if you are a fan of the violence and stuff of the original Punisher, you certainly are not disappointed here.
[SPEAKER_02]: As far as I know, this is probably more violent than anything on Netflix from the first two Punisher seasons, I think, and I rewatchable to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's definitely I haven't seen season two so, but it's in the same this in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in the same vicinity But I do wonder like so for me Him putting the flower the kid gave him at the grave wasn't emotional Be and it did work and I'm with you the acting was there, but because it was so short I guess I didn't fully buy like on paper I understand why he turned
[SPEAKER_02]: but it was kind of crazy to me not crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It happened a little fast to go from I'm about to end my life to I'm fully back on the board in 44 minutes and really just because he had a single interaction with this family.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess like like if it's been a full length film you could have fleshed that out of ton you know like he visited that cafe all the time or that bakery all the time
[SPEAKER_02]: and this little girl meant something to him and even more so you could hint at she reminds him of his daughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but because it was really fast, it felt almost abrupt to me to be like, oh, so now he's like back because of this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that I think that part I was okay with because
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, you know, the whole time you're in his head and you see him wrestling with what's the purpose and he kind of almost gets there a couple of times.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he's also so like he's in such the state of despair and is like, I mean, having kind of a psychotic break like he can't, he's hallucinating things and so like I feel like just the act of
[SPEAKER_01]: of her coming up and like hugging him, it was kind of a grounding experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it like realizes like, you know, that is the, like there are people, like now it's like, you know, like on the kind of spider-man side of it, like if he does take his life, I think he's now realizing that in doing that, he would also kind of be taking
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that family's lives because if he's not going to be there to protect them like nobody is and and I think that like he he's realizing what he really wants is Like if he can't have protected his own family at least he can he can do that for others yeah my problem my problem was the execution of of some of that and that Like There seem the writing
[SPEAKER_02]: which is written by John Bernthal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, like most of the body bag, I mean, I didn't know, listen, like most of the French stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought was was good and that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, Bernthal would understand the character.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like this is one of those things where
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, we praise born again for often doing so many things with one scene or with one exchange, like the dialogue being so tight and, and like, and efficient.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a special that is only this long, I felt like this was way looser than any one episode of of
[SPEAKER_01]: Daredevil born again like the actual dialogue or what the overarching story was both but but first with the dialogue it like there's the thing Like nothing with the dialogue bothered me for the record really But you're always more attuned to that than I am I think that there there were a couple of moments where it's like okay like
[SPEAKER_01]: you have now gotten this across in a way that is either subtle or not subtle but effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there would be like two more lines to do the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, as an example, the when the girl comes up to hug him at the end, that would be enough, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's you understand what's happening in that moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he doesn't
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, and because they also have her dad, like, you, they, they give you like two or three different shots of her dad kind of nodding and then she comes back then they go for like a handshake kind of thing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he steps back in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it, the whole thing was just kind of like I, I got like,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those scenes where if it was just, she hugs him, he looks up.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dad gives him like a quick nod and he walks out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that would be so much better.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where you're so much better about writing than I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I didn't notice that, but now, yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just a couple of, and the only reason it stuck out to me as much as it did, I think is because it was a relatively short, you know, it's like, it's a one episode thing, and they wind up trying to do a lot in that one episode, but then they are often not, like it's like no one came back through and made sure that they were being economical about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
[SPEAKER_01]: there are certain things like what you're saying where like something's feel jarring, something's feel like they're living in it a little too long.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like I almost, like I'm not sure that I get what they were doing with the mom from the Italian family that's been like Judith Light's character.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I thought she did great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought she'd agree to, and I think it's a really interesting, like, look, what you're so mad about people doing to your family, you've now done to my family, like, I thought that was a really powerful thing to explore, but I just don't think that they had it, like, they didn't have enough time to really explore it, like it felt like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, he's, he's walking in to his apartment and she confronts him and then she's like, now everybody's coming and they're all gonna kill you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just, it feels like, and I didn't even fully understand the mechanics because what was, the family was dirty, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why he was killing him.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were a crime family.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then they were involved in the mother was highlighting all the, like, good traits, which makes sense, but it kind of left me feeling like, oh, he did just murder like an okay dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: by the last kid right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right or was he involved with the crime thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she made that comment about like, I, he never touched those girls or those kids or whatever, like, like, I believe he was so maybe they're leaving.
[SPEAKER_02]: Either way, that's what I mean by it felt a little fast because like, I was like, oh, I don't know enough about this to really be moved with why she's going psycho.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that would be a whole season is that he killed that family and now he's dealing with the ramifications, you know, yeah, I don't understand why they don't whatever like no sure sure, but I guess like I just got the sense that there were
[SPEAKER_01]: There were a lot of good ideas in this and I just think maybe there were too many ideas for a forty four minute yeah special just because like I I also could have lived with him wrestling with his purpose or lack there up for a long time yeah that's the reality like that could have been
[SPEAKER_02]: If it was a movie that could have been 30 minutes before anything really happened of him walking by crimes and not doing anything and just like feeling nothing and having these hallucinations and these people haunt him and then go to this climax of the first act of he's going to end his life.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, then you stretch out the set that's what I meant by like if it's a future or a full length film a feature film It makes sense to me because then the whole middle act is like look the town has gotten bad because you killed these families But I want to know like why did he kill this crime family like how involved was the crime family?
[SPEAKER_02]: Were they doing a bunch of bad stuff in what way was that him going too far like maybe he did just kill a guy out of vengeance that really didn't deserve it
[SPEAKER_02]: and so now he's wrestling with that, and that's why the mother is extra mad when she's pointing out that they're both lonely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was really effective, but I want to feel that more from her perspective, and then you have the fight, and then you could have this third act that's like, oh, I realize that this is now what they did, but they did all in 41 minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what they did, but they did all in 44 minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think my biggest positive,
[SPEAKER_02]: is that it does serve as a practical explanation of just, like it is a look at where Frank's been.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you know, in the way that the Guardians, you know, the Galaxy or the Galaxy, the Holiday Special didn't move the needle a ton, but it was a little bit like, hey, here's what they've been up to and here's kind of like a fun Christmasy side story.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the, hey, this is kind of a fun side story.
[SPEAKER_02]: for a character that we haven't seen and would have had reason to ask what he's been doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it was effective in that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, look, he's really going through stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's totally checked out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like him wrestling with this idea that now that he's killed everybody associated with his family.
[SPEAKER_02]: his family still isn't back and he still doesn't know what to do now.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's his purpose?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh poor Frank.
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of liked that as a check-in and then oh he's still got it like he's he's got all the fighting tactics and then honestly the most effective part was it was kind of cool for me to see the very ending with him come out with the new haircut and the full jacket to be like okay this sets up brand new day he's back like he's back just like you're thinking so in that way it was a good check-in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like, man, I mean, that that final scene was just such a great Punisher scene, like that that whole sequence felt well-earned.
[SPEAKER_01]: I say, final scene, the big fight sequence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think what was, what was also weird, and I should, you know
[SPEAKER_01]: series since it first came out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But isn't that sort of how the first season opens?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I thought he, he, I thought the idea was he kills everybody else involved and then he goes and gets like a construction job because he's kind of done what he set out to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I remembering that right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's very similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, well, first of all, he's still killing people in Daredevil, born up, not born in Daredevil season two, you know, he's still killing gangs.
[SPEAKER_02]: That are a story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when he becomes a construction worker, it's definitely less from the, I'm depressed world.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is like he's got no purpose.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess that'd be my wonder.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, no, I can't mechanically pretty much, but I guess I thought he had already.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I thought he had already killed everybody that was in any way involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, in born again, when we saw him, he's clearly still out there doing stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's got all the pictures on his wall still and born again.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got, um, so I don't know, maybe he's just stretching who was involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it gets further and further.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Technically.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a little more shifting into, he's killing bad guys, even if they're not involved, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think, I mean, thematically, they're doing different things, and I do, like, I like this a lot as a way to explain, not just kind of where he is going into brand new day, but it's sort of a,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, in a way, it is doing for the Punisher, what I think we've talked about the Born Again series doing for Daredevil and a lot of the other Netflix characters, which is kind of wrapping up some things and setting them up for real inclusion in the MCU.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is though, like, I'm not,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this, this almost feels like it doesn't even take born again into a count.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, did you get the sense that, like, if, like, there's no, like, you know, he breaks out at the end of born again season one and there are all these bad cops that are basically using his symbol and out there, like murdering innocent people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I got the sense like, okay, that in itself is a motivation for Frank, like he's gonna maybe he doesn't want to get involved in like the Daredevil war of it all, but like we talked about with the Daredevil finale, like I think that there are some moments where Frank is going to go off, especially given the fact that these people all kind of worship him,
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting that not only is there no reference to that, like I think if you and maybe this was the point, if you didn't watch Daredevil born again, season one, and just watch this, I don't think it would really change the experience and maybe that's what he wanted, maybe he wanted it to be a thing that kind of stands on its own.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just thought it was interesting that it didn't seem like there was any real
[SPEAKER_01]: link between those projects at all, as I was walking them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Karen, Karen, um, yeah, but again, that could be a link to the, just from the Punisher series, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a, it's not a fault necessarily.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought it was like an interesting call.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, I, it's not that disagree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying there is a link and here it is, but,
[SPEAKER_02]: It was linked in enough for me to go, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, he's mad about the cops, but at the end he does leave.
[SPEAKER_02]: born against isn't one I mean, and I think you are like they reference him in season two like that he's gone So I think it's I could buy it as this really isolated small neighborhood in in New York I mean if anything the the absolute lawlessness the level of the lawlessness like the post-abacle like through the dog in front of a truck just cuz
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's where I a little bit wrestle with how believable is this like this is in New York still right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not like zombie land or this is not Yeah, Max, you know, it's not Max is still in your heart because like New York is supposed to be under this like kind of fascist regime where crime is being like ruthlessly eradicated
[SPEAKER_01]: And I get that, you know, it's being led by a criminal.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I still think like the whole safer streets thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's aimed at vigilantes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would think that, like, we know when this takes place.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is like a round the rioting time of season two, or afterward, like, safer streets.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my point, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think maybe there were things that they could have linked in
[SPEAKER_01]: given like at first whenever that when this starts and he's walking through or just with the scene with the guy like throwing the dog in front of the car it is it is so aggressively like violent and bleak like it it actually does feel post-apocalyptic like there are
[SPEAKER_01]: like there are no rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's looting everything like all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and when he's doing that walk, and there's like people taking a baseball bat to a store owner.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, whoa, it's like shooting each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, can we not call the cops?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the one cop car shows up, but a guy jumps on the hood and the cop car backs up and kind of retreats.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that was, that was maybe my biggest turn off.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, not that it was not connected, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe that is a lack of connection to born again.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it didn't feel like the same New York kind of, which I don't get is like, well, Frank has a character maybe has to be there, but I feel you can so easily solve this stuff if you don't put everything in New York.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, he's like, if this was just like Philadelphia,
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel you could buy it that Daredevil was doing this and Frank's over here doing this and he's trying to roll from his past and like it's lawless and I don't know I don't know Maybe don't take that dude.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not the headline of the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even the Netflix stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought did a pretty good job of that because like what Luke Cage is doing in Harlem.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels contained, even though there are big things happening there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the model with Netflix was Daredevil's and Hell's Kitchen, like Luke Cage is in Harlem, and you kind of get this like, yeah, they're aware, but there's no reason why they would intersect, and they have kind of different goals.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I would buy the fact that he's hold up and he's like in a like on a bender or something that feels fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's what you were saying about it's not feeling like the same city at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they're not really being a clear, like I guess the understanding is because he took out this mob family, there's now no structure and everything's just total chaos.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the police is slowness to respond.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he kills probably 30 people before a single cop car shows up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know what I mean, I mean, are like all on the roof and also like I get like the power vacuum, but does that what does that mean practically like was that family keeping all these people from from just like eating each other and now they're gone and everyone's like all right, like
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's just lose our minds.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's just they wanted it to be effective and for you to feel the lawlessness.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they went too far.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they just directed it too far.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when he was doing the slow walk, if you had toned down the amount of writing in the background and looting by 40%, I don't think we have this question.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if it's like if they were just tying to break into that cafe,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or like maybe, and then maybe that incident inside of the few other riots, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And let me be clear, I buy the mama whatever, newchi sending all the criminals to him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like all of the assault on his apartment makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, once he gets down to the street, and people are just like beating each other for no reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where I'm like, huh, or like, like he said, before that moment where he's just into to ignore it, it is like literally Mad Max in the background while he's walking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's some things that I'm just not even really sure, like there's the one guy that is just like Clearly mentally ill and there's like the comment about like that man needs medication.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like in the cafe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but like I think they were trying to do this whole mental health thing as well as like per the outro credits.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you saw like the mental health hotline that you could.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, because it, well, yeah, to your point, because it's over the top and because the runtime was short, I'm not sure it was as effective as it could have been.
[SPEAKER_02]: As like a look at all of these people are wrestling with stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I own, like, I think the problem for me is that they rooted it and in this whole area, like block section of town neighborhood,
[SPEAKER_01]: just in total chaos like that is the first the first like shop that you get is like the dog thrown in front of the car like I think if if this had opened with him killing that family
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like that's the kind of cold open.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of the like, Frank just like walking in the apartment and then you see everything play out after that and then it comes back to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I like the realization of like I can chase her down or I can like help people and I'm gonna choose to help people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you could do all of that and her character would make a lot more sense because you're laying the groundwork like at the very start, this is what the special is about.
[SPEAKER_01]: But instead, it kind of sets the stage of like what this special is about is this like city that's gone to hell and it's total chaos and what's front going to do about it and I like I the pieces are there it just doesn't feel like it was I don't know like it that's why I say it felt like it was maybe doing a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to we got to be a little bit sensitive here because I'm aware of the fact as I'm recording this which it's before it's coming out that there are a lot of listeners right now that are disappointed in our negativity toward this because I know there'll be people that love it and that's great we love that you love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree, I think there are things I would have done a little bit differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what you're trying to say with the lawlessness, too, is like, it's also a little bit of the ramifications, not just of Frank killing the family, but Frank not able to do his job.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, like Frank's not been able to protect the streets too, and so I think that's why it's extra bad as they're trying to say, and then like by the end, you know, when Frank is inflicting his justice, it seems like things are better, which even that is kind of funny because like, you know, he can just, it's a unique role, because he can just go up to any criminal with no due process, like, could just be a guy who, you know, stole 50 bucks from a store,
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're just like, we're gonna end this guy's life, you know, Thumbs Down, he just gives him like one nod like she'll him and he's back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's back and, but now again, back to the positive for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, I did think the actual fight was incredibly well choreographed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, every shot, every punch felt incredibly believable, realistic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing looked weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: It looked amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought and if you're looking for unique ways for Frank to kill people using God's body shield Nighting people stabbing a guy to death with a pen Machine guns pistols out of ammo, which I also appreciate like they were very realistic about how many shots are in a magazine And like I said like the end shot of him in his full outfit with the haircut.
[SPEAKER_02]: It did really get me going
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, okay, yeah, it is nice like with the metal music plan to don't don't don't don't like he's killed in this guy who killed the dog You know like we're gonna have this guy's life needles drop They're in the cafe wild also.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought the kind of light-hearted music thing to start the fight worked pretty well Like yeah, to point out kind of the absurdity of what's about to happen here like everyone in the world being murdered Yeah, that too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm with you that like it
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't, it didn't fully meet my expectations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would say, for like, so I'm like, Anika, there's no way in H.E.W.
[SPEAKER_02]: How's that she's watching this?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just basically told her, I was like, here's what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you just tell someone, it's like, there's not that much on paper.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, you're trying to do a lot but you're like, look, Frank is really depressed.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like about to end his life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he's moved by this family, and this little girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he decides to start doing the right thing and that we's back.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, essentially, that's essentially it, which is cool, you know, like, great, I think that the other, like, I think the other thing I struggle with, just thematically.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm just I'm just I'm raising these things and just for the record to all listeners, I'm the one trying to get this back on the positive rails and robbies out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this one, the record show, it's not me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just criticizing some of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just being I'm just honestly reacting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's some confusion thematically too because like what I was saying earlier about the turning point and the way you just talked about it, that I think is compelling and works.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it actually gets like there's that piece, there are two things that's trying to do at once, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is trying to do
[SPEAKER_01]: He's now reached the end of his mission.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does he call it or is there another higher mission?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he ultimately finds that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think all that was well handled.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also something else going on about
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, are you actually like, is what you're doing correct?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is killing all of these people?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that truly right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because one, you have done to this woman, what was done to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, you have maybe caused all of this lawlessness yourself by taking out this family because there's an implication that... Or at least, there's a power back you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and not only that, but also you are now, like, whenever he's, like, he saves that family in the cafe, there is an argument to be made that that he is the one that kind of put them in danger in the first place, either by taking out this crime family that was sort of running the area or by drawing all these people to his apartment,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that's part of the area, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, but the great area I think for the Punisher is always like, he will, like, is it okay for you to just murder people without due process, even if they're terrible?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's weird to me when it gets into like, like, all of these people are running around, beating and killing each other, and Frank,
[SPEAKER_01]: has kind of usher that in by moving into this neighborhood and doesn't really feel it doesn't seem like he feels any responsibility for that even at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think at the end he's just kind of like okay well now I know that I need to to protect people and kind of use my violence for good and do the right thing and get justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, I think if you pulled out some of that stuff and made it just, Frank is at the end and he's about to, if it's a situation where he's about to maybe kill himself or he's like calling it and he's in his apartment, but then somebody does a leak like the Frank castles up there and then all these people start coming to the building and he has this moment where he's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I have done my mission.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could just call it, but now all these people are about to, they're going to suffer as a consequence of what I've done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of have to pull myself out of it for a moment and you fight off all these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have the cafe scene, and he's like, oh, it's more than that, even like this is what I should be doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That to me feels totally coherent and you get all the best parts of the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also like the due to flight stuff like what I was saying, but I just think it confuses the whole the whole trajectory and and like what his arc is supposed to be across this So I think I kept thinking even if you just made this like a 20 minute 25 minute thing like a short and you just made it basically all him and his apartment
[SPEAKER_01]: and then all these people coming and him breaking out and then you know winding up the gravesite and trimmed it way down.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be really, really strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: You would have some of his best acting, you would have some of his best action, and then I think you would have his best kind of character beat.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think so much of the other stuff that they put in just kind of made it feel on wieldy to me, like it was maybe too much for them to be able to satisfactorily handle within those parameters in the brand.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you done?
[SPEAKER_02]: Cali.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I want to say thank you to everyone who's been listening along throughout this entire Daredevil saga.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've been so thankful to have you supporting us and checking out the podcast and joining the community and we have a lot of fun stuff coming up for the rest of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: Robby, let's take a quick break and we come back.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to close this episode by talking about what are the greater MCU implications of this special.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we can rank this special and get out here and start building up towards Spider-Man to be honest, less than, or about two months away at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll be right back after a quick word from these sponsors.
[SPEAKER_02]: You saved the good stuff for special occasions.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, just following up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, it's not overly tied into the MCU as we talked about already, as far as it's not overly tied into Daredevil born again, did get a cameo from Karen, but even that's not directly tied because she's not actually there.
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, I thought it could have been cool if she was actually there.
[SPEAKER_02]: After all these hallucinations, she was the one person,
[SPEAKER_02]: They thought that too because they had the hug and she says I am really here, but then she's still not, but I feel like her actually being there would have been interesting right would have been an interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I think it's better from a romantic relationship thing that she's not because it's Frank's memory of her that like they gave for each other, but she's currently with Matt at this given second.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's that's more explainable that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, the biggest takeaway for me is that I do get a little bit of chills when he is inflicting his justice in this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to see how the interaction spider man's going to be the big thing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like now that Frank, I mean, if we buy that this is now Frank finding his purpose, let's say, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, I feel like at this point, you can't tell that story again, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you probably don't go back to, no, what am I doing here?
[SPEAKER_02]: What's my mission anymore,
[SPEAKER_02]: If that's the case, kind of like I talked about a daredevil.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why I'm dying on this hill.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, in some ways, I feel like this felt like a very Netflix driven thing still, and I don't know all the makers behind it, but it felt, I don't want to say the word fan service but it did feel like we're, we're giving the people who were fans of the Punisher from Netflix, another taste of the Punisher from Netflix.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's going to be equally as violent, it's not going to be tied into what Spider-Man's doing, what's happening in New York City with the Elena, et cetera, it's just going to be
[SPEAKER_02]: where Frank is killing a bunch of people and he's gonna have the same emotional beats that to different, you know, varying degrees of effectiveness with his family, which is something he's still wrestling with, which I've said before, they kind of go in and out with.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are times where he's like less concerned by it, are burdened by it, and then there are times where it's like the sole driver.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this felt to me like they're going, hey, we're gonna go back to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's about to end his life because he can't live without his family at the end of all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so in that way, they did that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really now like Daredevil looking forward to, I hope that somebody whether it's Brad or Kevin Faggy can say, let's kind of close that chapter now and now I want to see Frank in the MCU again and not just like making an appearance in Daredevil and this is why Spider-Man gets me really excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it mean now for Spider-Man?
[SPEAKER_02]: to have this character out there who is just killing people by ahead of you from a citizen.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and you have Spider-Man who won't do it, and Daredevil who won't do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, what could it look like to have this badass version of Frank unleashed on someone that we as the audience feel does deserve it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it doesn't need due process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like,
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a bad example, but it would be kind of fun to see Frank, you know, in Wakanda, just mowing down all the aliens.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, doing his thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's a bad example.
[SPEAKER_02]: But is there ever going to be an enemy where we just go bring in Frank?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's time to bring out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like I'm excited for them to lean into that side of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said Disney on the last episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm, I'm more mean, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Marvel Cinematic Universe is bringing in these Netflix shows and characters.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, I want to see what that looks like now that we're transitioned.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now they're here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now, okay, there are certain things that they have to do now because they are here.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not on Netflix anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they're in the MCU, I need, I need check-ins.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need like realistic implications.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this the same New York City?
[SPEAKER_02]: I need all of those things like really tightened up for the future if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so him being inspired by him and his men gets me excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think that, I mean, there's a lot of fun stuff that they can do in the comics
[SPEAKER_01]: do interact with Frank because I think, you know, one of the tensions inherent in the, the genre, like in Batman deals with this a lot like that this idea that, you know, because Batman's got the won't kill rule.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he, but he goes against these just like absolutely psychotic murderous
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, or Spider-Man with the Green Goblin, or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like every time that you, that you,
[SPEAKER_01]: choose not to cross this line.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Karen and Daredevil have this conversation and born again.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are actually like killing other people by letting this person survive, knowing that as like the first opportunity, they're gonna try to go kill more people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, yes, we, you know, like I get having that line and I get, like I as the viewer want them to have that line, but you also kind of understand the real argument
[SPEAKER_01]: like the there's like a kind of famous bendus exchange in one of his comics where he's like at what point is Spider-Man responsible for everybody that that Norman Osborn is killed like because he wouldn't just like stop him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a thing that life, I mean, people in life wrestle with, and especially these superhero genre movies, they all wrestle with it to some degree, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's a American winner soldier going, do we need these ships, Nick Fury?
[SPEAKER_02]: And Nick is like, but do we let them do all this bad stuff first?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then the people that all died because we were standing on like a moral high ground?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And didn't want to do it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is like a running theme of the entire saga.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, especially because you, like, in the superhero world, you know that they're going to get out again and they're going to do stuff again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that him going in brand new day is actually perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how much they're going to pick up this thread, but like carrying where we leave Peter, like forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought one of the things no way home to really, really well that no other spider man movie has is like, it's not just, oh, it's like almost the inverse, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's not, oh, man, I was selfish and didn't stop this killer and now my uncle died.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I actually did the right thing and my aunt died because of it and Frank's
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like, because sometimes, but kill somebody like here, when maybe you shouldn't have right away, and it leads in all these ramifications.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the fact that may.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, like before she dies and besides is like no, you didn't think this was right and this is why and that's where you get the with great power then I think when spider in does come into contact with Frank there's a lot more There that's clashing beyond just the spider man has a kill code and Frank doesn't which is kind of what it boils down to in the comics off then it's it's like he has a real Like a real visceral
[SPEAKER_01]: reaction now to this idea that that like you know it feels like because of kind of the mission that may has given him that it's not just oh I shouldn't kill people it's like no it's my job is to not kill people and right now it feels like he has a mission of no I have to kill people to protect the other people like personally like this
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the benefit of the lawlessness is like I mean you don't you know like that's not the best that's not the New York I guess that spider-man seeing you know he's not seeing everybody just like ripping each other's throats out at like 10 a.m. on a Tuesday so you get from Frank's Perspective like I can't I can't go and sit them down and have a nice chat about
[SPEAKER_01]: what like what decisions they should be making in their life to like be in a better spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that so this at least gives you like now you know we we understand where Peter's coming from and I think if nothing else this is going to done a good job of showing us why Frank feels like not only he needs to to protect people but also why he kind of has to
[SPEAKER_01]: what's required, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's rank this for the file.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you should go first.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, man, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to
[SPEAKER_02]: by the way, with the lawlessness, I'm thinking in regards to the ranking, like I'll start about Mad Max, like that last crime guy that bursts in is like shirtless and wearing like metal chains, I mean it's literally Mad Max, like where this guy didn't have clothes on or anything, and he stabs me with the pen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But even then, like I think that that's maybe part of the issue is that Logan was kind of meant to not be in continuity in any meaning for way.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, yeah, they're doing the post-apocalyptic thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's fine because it's not really like,
[SPEAKER_01]: linking in, but this is linking in and taking place, you know, ostensibly present day.
[SPEAKER_01]: but that it made me think of that and Bo is afraid, which I'd curious if anybody listening to the assisting in that movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, in regards to the ranking thing is a little bit tricky because whenever we do this, we're right back to the same discussion of, should we rank all TV shows against each other?
[SPEAKER_02]: Should we rank TV shows against movies?
[SPEAKER_02]: Should we rank special presentations, separate from TV shows?
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause they're different things.
[SPEAKER_02]: should we rank the infinity sagas one thing and then never touch it again and then should we rank the multiverse sagas one thing and then never touch it once it's done like there's all these different debates so i'm trying to just put because we got some feedback on that on our discord channel i'm trying to just put this all into like a generic bucket with these rankings where it's like
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, go to our website, the ffwpodcast.com, and you can see where we very specifically laid out the tiers, and in fact, we have a YouTube series where we ranked every infinity soccer project as one episode, then we ranked every multiverse soccer movie as a second episode, then we ranked every Disney plus show as a third episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have other rankings where it's really separated out, but the point of this letter scale is to kind of just give it a generic feeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's why during the Daredevil stuff, I said,
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're in the A range, A plus A, A minus, it's like spectacular.
[SPEAKER_02]: Spectacular.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the best things I've seen, like you're pushing my list.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're threatening to get out my list of the best movies I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're in the B range, you're still above average.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I would tell people you like this, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then somewhere in the C range is a more of an average show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you liked it, but there are things, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I said you go first.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think for me, I'm just thinking it's a C plus.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a B minus C plus because the lowest episode of Daredevil I gave a B minus I think is still probably a little bit tighter than this the choreography here The excitement of seeing Frank back The unique ways they kill people are all huge positives and that would push you know into the B range
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, some of the writing concerns from me, you pointed them out, I didn't think of that first.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, yeah, I did feel like in general, like I said, the runtime, like it was, they were trying to do too much in a shrunken amount of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and therefore none of it was as effective as I would maybe want it to be, I think in general, it's lack of connectivity to the greater MCU.
[SPEAKER_02]: It felt kind of just like a fun little side comic issue story about Frank.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in that way,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think C++ is pretty fair for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I realize as I say that, that a lot of our viewers are going to be a lot higher on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm okay with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I know there are a lot there that are going to love this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even while we since we start talking, I saw a couple of reviews on my phone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're going to be, they're going to be people are high on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were high on quantum media, then almost ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know what, see?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, and you know, again, this is, this is one that I'll revisit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, the, the final sequence, like there, there were certain moments here that were,
[SPEAKER_01]: that were real, real highs, like some of the burnt old stuff, both like the really intimate stuff and the really kind of big scale stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that on another watch that that stuff may be enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, this is also something that may benefit from another watch in that now that I kind of understand what it's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: like I think I might be able to follow it a little like not that I couldn't follow it plot-wise, but you know it's like now I kind of know what to look for instead of what I thought was some mixed messaging.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in any case, if people praise this for what Burntel is doing if they praise it for the action, I agree to agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any complaint.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and in that way, we need to emphasize it is so not like a falling off the boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not like a, oh, they do, they've lost their way.
[SPEAKER_02]: A C plus is not like, oh, Marvel's screwed.
[SPEAKER_02]: This, you know, I think, right, I think in that way, it was smart to have it be a special presentation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if it was going to turn out like this, it's.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's good that it doesn't have like as much marketing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not as much a thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more like a hey If you want to know what Frank's been doing here's what he's been doing We don't have to see it before spider-man.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can just assume that he's kind of back And that way I think it's good, and that's where the branding matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think you know yeah, yeah, no, I think like I To me it
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it largely does exactly what it needs to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, there's no part of it that makes, like, I would say I am only more excited to see more of Frank now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the important thing is that they, the end is kind of like, it ruled and they, like, both scratches the edge and also kind of like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, the final reveal of the new of the like new suit and look at all that and there's just something about we've done so much because between Daredevil and Frank with the Punisher we've done so much of the and it's so good but we've done so much of the
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like so down and so there's something kind of fun about the ending of like if he's Inspiter man is just like a badass killing people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm kind of good with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm ready for him Just like not be questioning every decision.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he's just like right he's out there doing it I'm that gets me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think yeah, I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think and you know I I will say at least we do get the kind of book end of the
[SPEAKER_01]: of like the dog killer, getting taken down.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do question whether, whether that could have been even, like it was such a horrible thing that you were so sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a dog, that's the thing, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the part of you where I'm like, man, I kind of feel like this guy had it too easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like E. E. E.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you took his hat and then you, you know, you'd like kill them shot him in the face.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he doesn't even really have to suffer that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is dark.
[SPEAKER_02]: The killing the dog is such a crazy thing in general.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what does that gain anybody?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like even stealing the hat.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay, I have power over you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want your hat.
[SPEAKER_02]: But killing the dog is a little bit like, okay, what, you know, what did the dog do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's just a guy, like, he's not like, you, you love dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, okay, I'm gonna close us in saying that Spider-Man comes out the end of July.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not 100% certain of our podcast schedule between now and then.
[SPEAKER_02]: X-Men 97 season 2 comes out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do know that if you want to hear a ton from us, subscribe to Friends from Work Plus because we're going to do some screensaver episodes and yeah, some of them might make the main feed for sure, but there are movies, disclosure day, the Odyssey, a couple shows I'm watching widows bay.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's going to be some screensaver stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm about to start reading astonishing X-Men, sorry for the delay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So our Marvel Comics
[SPEAKER_02]: You're good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, friends from work is not going away.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to stay in touch with us, maybe subscribe to the Friends from Work Plus, not dimension it really supports this podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll definitely have main feed episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just not certain of this, the schedule yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm trying to make plans for Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we'll get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being a part of this journey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let us know in the comments if you disagree with our take on the Punisher Special.
[SPEAKER_02]: What did you love about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be back soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right back here talking about stuff.
[UNKNOWN]: You