[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good morning, CC, how are you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Good morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am a little under the weather and so apologies in advance to you and to our listeners.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I have to like, this is not very polite, but I'm just gonna say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I have to take a break to cough, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I have to do it, I'll do it, but I'm gonna try to rally.
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's my kids' plastic book fair this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So do they have plastic book fairs in Brazil where they come to the schools and put it in the American school?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so cute.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I volunteer a little bit this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: Watching all the classes come in and watching the picture books and seeing what they're excited about and if they all want to go spend their money on bookmarks and like pencils the teachers like your parents asked me to make sure that you buy a book so anyway lots of cute things seeing what they're buying seeming they're excited about and just bringing me so much life and joy watching these little readers
[SPEAKER_01]: I have the best memories like seriously from my childhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was like Disney land for me Oh gosh all the books and all the like merch too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the merch was also really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've always always liked free stuff Don't know what it is about me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anything related to books
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I mentioned this on the show, but my mom was a school librarian.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I as a kid would obviously love my own book fair, but I would also go help my mom at her book fairs.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm going to her school and help her set up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And anyway, so it's a scholastic book fair culture runs very deep in my, you know, my lineage.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I'm excited for the boys to enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, kind of be a part of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's when I got up to volunteering this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was also the
[SPEAKER_03]: over the weekend.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm on the board of the Ottawa writer's festival now, which is awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I attended so many events.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, it was really great to bring so many authors to town and just like, again, see everybody excited about books.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of my rants that I wanted to go on today, which segues right into this is I think sometimes as publishing people, we get really in our little like work business silos.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've been guilty of this and I think COVID obviously played it to this as well where we just don't go out and interact with like real readers that much, you know, where it's like we go to conferences often as agents we are presenting at the conference or we're taking pictures at the conference and so I just, you know, I think it's so important for everybody in publishing, but especially agents to like go out and be consumers of events as opposed to just speaking out events.
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, I think it's just incredibly important.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a couple of things coming up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, number one, I just, you know, as I said, did the auto operators festival as a like patron as a consumer, which was incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't on any panels, which was great.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really interesting to see in the audience like how, again, how people react to things, because often times like on the show we've been more interviewing.
[SPEAKER_03]: gas.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are steering conversations and kind of leading the conversation the way you want to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it was so interesting just to be consuming panels about books and seeing what people laughed at and seeing the questions from the audience and like the ways that people were engaged with the different books.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, I just thought it was so fascinating and a reminder to me to get out there and consume a different way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important to be around readers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I mean, they're the people we're ultimately selling to.
[SPEAKER_01]: We obviously, as agents, we sell to publishers.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, we, you know, reader behavior dictates so much in our industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that sounds great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we're doing a conference together this year, but are we doing any?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you doing any more?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I know we're going to when words collide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I should know when we're going.
[SPEAKER_01]: August I want to say I do know because the sisters birthday August 14th.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I do have this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we'll be there We've heard from the organizers of the when words collide event in Calgary that some of you are flying from very far to come see us I heard that somebody one of our listeners in Austria is coming to Calgary to be at the conference to see us live.
[SPEAKER_03]: So wherever you guys are coming from we're going to be so excited to see you
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm also presenting at the Surrey International Riders Conference, which is the one in Vancouver.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been to this one a number of times.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're really, really wonderful.
[SPEAKER_03]: They had to take last year off.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're kind of like back on this year, which is great.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're very lovely.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm also attending a conference.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is something where I get emails from the writer's trust, which is a Canadian organization that funds a lot of prizes and awards and that
[SPEAKER_03]: And at the bottom of the newsletter, they were advertising a conference through editor's Canada.
[SPEAKER_03]: The conference is all about the ways that AI intersects with editing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And right away, I was like, oh, this is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, wow, this seems like something I really need to pay attention to and learn about just from the perspective of what are editors telling each other?
[SPEAKER_03]: How are editors as an organization?
[SPEAKER_03]: thinking about AI, how are they advising, again, the members of their organization to think about AI, and how are the editors on the panels going to be talking about how they work with their clients and authors about AI.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's some really interesting panels.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll read you the name of some of the panels.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, I'm not paid to advertise this conference at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just very interested in what they're talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the talks is called editorial ethics in the
[SPEAKER_03]: another one editorial self-defense in the age of the cyborg writer, another panel just you know how Canadian editors are navigating AI adoption while protecting editorial credibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another talk is called demystifying developing nonfiction proposals and query letters, I think again.
[SPEAKER_03]: talking about AI, and obviously how that's going to be used.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then another couple other ones of what is called the critical editors guide to AI judgment beyond the hype.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, I'm just really excited to tune into some of these conversations in person.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's in how facts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, just kind of, as I said, see how editors are thinking about it because that funnel so much into
[SPEAKER_03]: how we as agents think about our work because we obviously sell our books to in-house editors at traditional publishing houses.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, so that's next on my dog it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it won't hurt that Halifax is such a beautiful place.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've only been one of them, but it's so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've only been once too.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, so I will be there if anybody is going to be at the editor's Canada annual conference.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited to be an interloper as an agent at this conference, but they let me in.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to come listen and hang out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And where are you going, CC?
[SPEAKER_03]: Other conferences you have this year?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm going to ask Benin June.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's right after my birthday on June 21.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's organized by Adrian Bridour, who is the author of
[SPEAKER_01]: who am I kidding?
[SPEAKER_01]: High key.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obsessed with Adrian's books and I've heard wonderful things about the conference.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had a few people reach out to me since I mentioned I was going to be like you're gonna have the best time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's super well curated like I'm really excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've done quite a few conferences and not to sound mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of them I would not go back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would, sorry, amazing, sorry, it's like a top one for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved Hawaii as well, like the Kawaii writers conference amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But their conferences are like, I would not go back to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is poorly organized and not well run and just generally not something that I'm getting any benefit from.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still glad I won, because you have to find out, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you have to put yourself out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: you can't be enjoying every single experience you have or else you're not stepping outside your comfort zone.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is all to say that I have heard so many wonderful things about aspect and that I'm really excited because these are compliments I'm getting from people who's taste and discernment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really trust
[SPEAKER_01]: So, excited about that, and then, Surrey and August, obviously, with you and Bianca.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going back to Kawaii this year because it is my mom's 70th birthday, when the conference is happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were lovely, they invited me, but I'm like, I can't make it this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, that's my, no, we, I forgot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also going in September to the LKBF storytellers conference in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the Scholastic Building.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, it's a nice full circle moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went last year for a panel where a native friend of mine was speaking, and then for a networking event.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I'm going to do that in early September.
[SPEAKER_01]: When is I don't remember the dates, but it's early September.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might actually be none of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wrote it 9-11, which is sad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's talk about like professional development at large.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like where do you, where do you think we get our professional development?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like as agents, one of the things I know, just backtracking a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know the AAAA, which is the Association of American Literary Agents is working on some and they do excellent professional development events.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're working on a course to help kind of, and some teachings to help agents with their professional development.
[SPEAKER_03]: again, you learn through years of kind of building the skills.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where do you think that you get professional development from?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually a really good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of the challenge with professional development, I think for aging team is just how
[SPEAKER_01]: house spread out everything is the best I mean there's obviously mentorship which is so important but in terms of like conferences I think are a great way I think it's really important to always bring it back to the reader we are catering to readers at the end of the day I also think that like networking opportunities cannot be like their importance cannot be overstated
[SPEAKER_01]: I, even things like mixers, like panels, like, again, the example I just gave, like last year, I went to the mixer that the Latinx in publishing conference was having at the Scholastic headquarters, because I wanted to be around other professionals.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just a lot of them are people I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, some Eric there, Eric Smith, it was so great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to see him again this year again, and really excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's things like that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's making sure that you're in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We when when when these events are happening, people think of it as networking, which is true, but I think to your point, Carly, like a little bit, is also like you're doing two things, you know, you're networking, but you're also learning new ways of ageing,
[SPEAKER_01]: We were actually on the same round table.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were at round table not too long ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about like, how do you know when you when you found a special book?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was all these agents and editors talking about like, you know, how do we know when we found something special?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we end up talking about methodology.
[SPEAKER_01]: We end up talking about how you run an auction and you know, other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am also a part of a few agents' slacks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which I really like, you know, it's nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, you've already mentioned it, but I just need to shout out to the AALA.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is such an incredible organization.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh my gosh, it, their library of resources, if any agents are listening and you're like, I don't know if I should join, you should join, you should join, you're 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should join.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so worth it, like it's so great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the conference that you were talking about where we were at the round table together was the people of publishing conference, which is put on by the AALA and it was great.
[SPEAKER_03]: I totally agree with you saying about being in the room where it happens and it sounds a little silly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it sounds a bit silly, but like there's a reason where.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, if there's a bunch of agents and say you're in a conference, you know, I'm speaking to professionals at this point, but like say you're at a conference and the agents and editors are going for a drink or going for lunch or, you know, going offsite to do something like just join, even if it feels a bit awkward to be like, hey, can I come along or hey, I didn't bring a car, but like can I join you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, really got to put yourself out there because those like those car rides those casual drinks.
[SPEAKER_03]: that is where you'll learn so much about the focusness that you just can't learn anywhere else because you're learning from the years of experience of all of those people, but whatever kind of topical thing is going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, incredibly important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and something that I'm really admire just thinking about like people who have mentored me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The learning ever stops, you know, you might be doing something for decades and you still find out new ways to do things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the really fun parts about our job.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get bored easily and my favorite thing about our job is probably the fact that you can't get bored doing this job.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many hats you have to wear and so many different currency have to navigate and it's very challenging.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it's also so rewarding.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I know one of the things I'm sure we talked about on the show, but that always comes back to me is like, there isn't this hierarchy of, you know, just like corporate America, where it's like, you know, you want to be like the middle manager and then this and then see speed and there's just not really like a climbing in that sense and agenting the climbing is very different and it's kind of hard to explain the way that the climbing happens, the climbing happens through the networking, through building the climb list, through reputation and it's all more of that social currency, obviously.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, just different forms of currency in a way that we don't have that like corporatness to us because agencies are essentially all of them almost, I think, in the grand scheme of things, they're small to medium size businesses, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not corporate like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very few are.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it also, you know, it's so interesting because I was talking to to a class one day and I was showing the different income, streams from agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these were all agents who have been doing it for the same exact amount of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I showed like obviously anonymized all the data got permission.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was showing this is an agent who has, I don't even
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's just say 30 deals and they had made X amount of money from advances specifically.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was just like their commission on advances and for purposes of the data, everyone had the same split or else there would be too many variables.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there was another agent who had like a third of the deals but had so much a much higher number like money number because their deals were so much bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's one of those things where like to your point about climbing the ladder,
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also not, uh, it's not like a situation where everyone has been doing this for three years or 10 years or 50, like they have the same experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's also not the same situation where you can look at metrics that are sometimes external and you can be like, oh, this person, his more successful or less successful, not that success is measured in money only, of course not.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you would think that more deals more money, you would think that, like, you know, if you don't, if you don't know the industry and it is 100% not, not the case at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and that's what makes his jobs like so complicated, so fun, as you said, never a double.
[SPEAKER_03]: Never, never, never, never, never.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why people do this for so long.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I was thinking about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it is one of those things that is a calling, is a,
[SPEAKER_03]: career in a way where I don't know there's there's not really any stepping away from it really like it just becomes part of you who you are and how you think about the world and I we are salespeople also at the end of the day right and as you were saying like how do we could we quantify success well yeah one of the reasons we do put a number on it is because we are salespeople that is our job we essentially were managers but we're salespeople
[SPEAKER_01]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also really encourage writers.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a writer, if you're a smart writer, anyway, you are also a voracious reader.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I am always encouraging writers to think of their craft and of their place in the industry from the reader's vantage point, but as a business.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was actually an acquiring editor who wants to tell me this, and I very much agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I asked them, you know, what do you wish querying writers knew?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she answered, I wish they knew that they reject way more than I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being like, huh?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, well, they're readers and when they go into a bookstore, they are buying a book, two books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're like a very voracious reader in your buying ten books, but look at all the books are inside that bookstore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you are rejecting all those books.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's essentially what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: as a consumer, as a reader, and I wish they understood that because the behavior that you see from acquiring editors from agents from publicists often times can be traced down or traced up depending on what kind of chart you're working with, to a reader behavior, not to say that there aren't systemic issues in publishing that need to be addressed because absolutely there are, but
[SPEAKER_01]: It really helps to think of how you as a reader you are rejecting books left and right and because they're just millions of books published every year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that many are being bought, let's just be honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: All good points.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to figure out where we should do until next because I feel like both things we have to chat about really connect really well.
[SPEAKER_03]: One thing I didn't want to bring up before we go into some of our long forum things is we did see the publishers suing meta and Mark Zuckerberg lawsuit.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in case anybody hasn't heard about it, I just wanted to bring everybody up to speed about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But essentially, five major publishers, his ship, McMillan, McGrawhill, elsewhere, and send gauge in the best-selling novelists got to row, have filed a class action copyright infringement lawsuit against Meta, and its founder and chief executive market Zuckerberg, the complaint which was filed on Tuesday morning, which for you guys would have been last weekend in the Center District of New York, accuses Meta's Zuckerberg of a legally using millions of copyrighted works to trade their artificial intelligence program.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lama and removing copyright notices and other copyright management information from those works.
[SPEAKER_03]: The lawsuit asserts that metasengineers relied on pirated books and journal articles to trade the program by downloading unlicensed copies through websites like Anasarchive and Open Source Engine, piracy sites, including LiveGen and Sci Hub.
[SPEAKER_03]: the suit also claims that Zuckerberg himself personally authorized and actively encouraged the infringement representative from meta did not immediately respond to her quest from comment from the New York Times.
[SPEAKER_03]: So just some publishing news.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, no surprises.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's so ever, I think, obviously really glad this is happening and publishers are fighting back and what we'll see what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll definitely see what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be really
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, first we're going to hear from our sponsors and then we're going to talk about the power of fit between an agent in their client.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have some listener questions and a lot more good stuff ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: So stay with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, welcome back everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: One thing that came across our desk that we wanted to chat about and talking about professional development.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is where I was like, oh, what should we, what should we don't tell next.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is a book that came out this past spring called middleman literary agents in the making of American fiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as a literary agent, I'm not usually inclined to, you know, read other books or necessarily other resources about the job that I already do, but I do have a copy of this book, Laura sent it to us and I will read it, but I want to focus on the LA review of books about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: book that that Laura wrote and obviously linked to this for you guys in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can check it out too because there's a lot of interesting themes kind of coming up and one of the things I think is really interesting because the review is called the power of fit and I think we talk about fit all the time, you know, this is your fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't a fit for my list or, you know, d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d
[SPEAKER_03]: The work of agenting, falling for a manuscript, pissing at best you can and struggling to sell it, comes into sharpest focus and a discussion of agents who represent authors of color because they demonstrate that the literary agents' most valuable quality is often persisted.
[SPEAKER_03]: Few agents have the power of widely or sterling Lord to singedly handedly make a career.
[SPEAKER_03]: The pressure on the rest of them are considerable.
[SPEAKER_03]: 15% commission does not go far, especially when the portion of it goes to agency overheads in a steady stream of deals matter as much as large advances, which is exactly what C.C.
[SPEAKER_03]: This incentivizes agents to hedge, building lists that balance literary and commercial writers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, we can kind of get into how fit plays into that, how being generalists, you know, plan to that, and how much do agents hedge against all of this knowing how hard it is?
[SPEAKER_03]: So you see, was there anything that stood up to you there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the idea of a fit
[SPEAKER_01]: and our industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that authors, I think writers actually who are listening might be like, I don't want to hear that word anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: To know, I wonder if it's like a triggering word almost.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, not a good fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not a good fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could be the title of every querying writers memoir.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least, you know, a memoir that will talk about a specific moment in their lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I understand that it might be frustrating at least I imagine it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, this is
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that makes our job so interesting and yet difficult to explain which is how do you explain when something is in a good fit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because so much of it comes down to taste, it is really hard to reverse engineer why something wasn't to your taste.
[SPEAKER_01]: The analogy I use a lot is cooking and you know I use chocolate chip cookies because it's me.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I take a bite of a chocolate chip cookies and please imagine them in this scenario, I have 50 chocolate chip cookies in front of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a happy day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I take a bite out of one and it doesn't, it doesn't please my taste buds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying it's a bad cookie necessarily, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have eaten enough cookies to be like, this is a good cookie.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are people who are going to want this, but it's not for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you explain that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we're not the chefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we can't say, it's not for me because you didn't use enough sea salt or it's not for me because you didn't melt the butter or it's not for me because of the flour
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I don't know your method, because I haven't seen the recipe, but also not our job, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not our job is not our expertise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, because of how many cookies I've had, sometimes I can absolutely have an angling as to why something isn't a good fit for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I actually passed on a manuscript not that long ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: where I asked for the full and I was really enjoying it and then I realized it wasn't for me and I had feedback to offer it to the writer and I made very clear I was like I'm gonna give you feedback which is rare I rarely do this and I'm like you should not listen to this feedback if it doesn't resonate with you like read it but you are talented you're gonna find it right agent and the issue for me
[SPEAKER_01]: was that the there was a romance between, you know, two characters and there was absolutely no tension in their will there won't they?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was very clear that they were meant to be and it wasn't a romance book.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is not something that would necessarily be a problem for a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like for me though it was like I needed that tension there and I had figured out after thinking about it for a long time why that book was for me, which is a long way of saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Deciding, it's not even deciding.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say that again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Figuring out of some things if fit or not is not a decision.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's recognition.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's knowing yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not an analytical process.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know anyone who does it as an analytical process and I am a deeply analytical person.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I made a few notes because
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, again, I need to dive into this book more, but one of the things this makes me think about is, like, what is my job?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I just said my job is a salesperson.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have something my job is an advocate, an advocacy, and that's one of the reasons why I do the show and want to teach and obviously spread the good word about how legends can help their authors through just how difficult the book businesses.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think about, yeah, like, what is my job?
[SPEAKER_03]: And fit is a big part of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is inherent.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, we can't
[SPEAKER_03]: put a spreadsheet over top of it and help us, you know, spit out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, if you represent this many fiction authors, this many non-fixed options.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, little.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't put things into a spreadsheet and have it say I represent this many fiction authors and this many non-fiction authors spit out to me the answer of what I should represent next.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there is no Excel version of how to do my job.
[SPEAKER_03]: My job is very much fluid and my
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, depends on so many other things that's going on in the marketplace or going on in my own list or going on in my own life, you know, how much can I take on I also think about time so nice fit also has to do with time something could be a good fit and I don't have enough time that's something else so that I think about you know based on different periods of my life or my career like what I can take on load I can take on I think about that a lot and as I kind of mentioned as I was segue into the conversation I think, you know, being a generalist.
[SPEAKER_03]: And hedging the working on so many different categories is also a way to encourage fit because if I'm a generalist there's more opportunity for fit because if I'm only working on one category let's say I'm a romance agent or nonfiction agent.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to fit into a more narrow box of what is my fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: But as a generalist, because I work on fiction and non-fiction across so many categories, I do think there's more opportunities for something to be a fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I have more room to find the right author in the various categories from me to champion and again, back to advocacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an excellent point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that you said that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Full of your great that word advocates.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just wear too many hats.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have my grand chat here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we should all get lots of hats.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always have it near me because you never know when I'm going to go on a grinch, rinsed.
[SPEAKER_01]: We never know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the really interesting thing about fit for our jobs is that it is one of an agent's biggest strength is knowing when something is a fit for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that comes down to trusting your gut to knowing the market, to really being familiar with your taste and the market's taste.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: of fit, you know, whether something's a good fit or not, which is we need to know which editors are going to read a manuscript or a proposal and say, this is a good fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we are in the business of figuring out our own fit, but also being able to correctly predict a fit between the author and that editor, and it is the author as well and not just a project,
[SPEAKER_01]: We are not just looking at the quality of the manuscript, although that is so important, but we're also looking at, you know, the person behind that manuscript, which is also a part of fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we are... We're in the business of fit, and I'm wondering whether the fact that the word fit has so many meanings, including mental health meanings, but also exercise meanings.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a metaphor there, waiting to be untangled in the words of Rumanulam.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fit I was just thinking about that like all the different meanings of fit right because it's also like fit in a box But also like fit on like how does it fit on me?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of implied words there come back to something else that you said You said there's a power of knowing what something's a fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually think the power is when you know that something is not a fit
[SPEAKER_03]: because we get coming back to how much we're pitched and how much we get.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have to say no so many times and sometimes you're missing so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, well, should I have said to yes to this or, you know, I haven't seen anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really connecting with me.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you have to say no so much and you have to get so comfortable with saying no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if you don't leave yourself the opportunity, again, thinking about like spaciousness, you have to leave room for fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think the power is in saying,
[SPEAKER_03]: No, and saying I know when something is not a fit because I think that when something is a fit is often that magical thing it's all, you know, sometimes we can't put a word on why something is a fit because it just feels precious.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why it's so like we always talk about like, I'll come in all these magical things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're using mystical words.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is one of the reasons why I love chatting with you because we're such different moments in our career.
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't reached a point where.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have time, like time is a very valuable resource I do have, so I've also never experienced doubt about whether something is a fit or not, like I know instantly beyond any reasonable doubt.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only time that I've struggled is when I love the project, but it's the author I can't, I can't see myself working on, which is only happened twice ever in my life, and that was the part where it's not that I doubted myself, but I was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm going to have to say no to this and I really love the project, but I'm not a good fit with the author, but yeah, I think I think you're right that knowing when something is in a fit is the superpower.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think that maybe for an agent who has more room on their list that kind of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you don't necessarily have to make room for the future, yes, as much because you have more room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it might have to be called meds and I'm not making sense anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think that you made the next one point about we're at different points and we're going to come out of different lands.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's important.
[SPEAKER_03]: I also just can't give up on this, but this like this idea of like,
[SPEAKER_03]: fit, right, and how we know when something is a fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Often the answer is just passion.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's like, you know, yeah, it's all 100%.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like anything in our life.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll just find time for the thing that lights us up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's really just a matter about igniting that passion, igniting something in an agent where they feel like, I will make room for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will make time for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether it's a busy list or not, but not a busy list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, this is why our jobs are like a dream job.
[SPEAKER_01]: So whenever someone reaches out to me, this happens a lot because I'm an alum of Boston University and we have like a terriers, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this platform where alums can connect with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I get a lot of messages from people saying like, you see, see, I'm thinking breaking into publishing, can you have an informational interview and I try to always say yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever I'm talking to people about the job because I very much believe in like I'm going to give it to you straight.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are not going to be one of those people who a couple of years into aging, will say the sentence, no one told me that insert.
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone, I'm someone, someone will have told you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like very direct about all the things, but then when I get to the good stuff, I always start with the bad stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, but you have to understand, it's the best job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of the most passionate moments of your life, like think of the things that you adore, adore, adore, the things that consume you, the things that let you up, that you get to do that all day long, like all day long, it's the best feeling ever and you get to do that fighting for and fighting might be an unfair ver, but sometimes it applies.
[SPEAKER_01]: You get to do that while advocating for the creator, you know, the person who is
[SPEAKER_01]: coming in with the product but also the person who is unfairly treated in the oligopseny that is publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, it feels good and you're doing good, which is like goals, you know, career goals.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just kind of taking that one step further, I've been thinking about this because I have my panel next week with my client, my through the auto writers festival where we're talking about what makes a good book club book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So new and I've been
[SPEAKER_03]: why I feel so strongly about working on book books and commercial fiction and for me it's not about the fact that maybe commercial fiction moves more copies and therefore is more profitable let's say but it's also it's more about knowing that I'm working on books that will be read by so many people like it is the retoe affirming the reach.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is so affirming to me that I've worked on multiple books that have sold over a million copies in the English language alone, knowing that that many people have interacted with art that I helped bring into the world is mind-blowing and feels like so special to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the reason why I'm like, okay, I had a hand in
[SPEAKER_03]: making this go from work done to a book to millions of people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, if it was my mind and I know other people who might work in other entertainment industries, they're like, I'm million isn't that many people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm happy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm million is a lot of people and I'm just very thankful that my work has led to the art that I'm connected with to reach so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really special.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a listener question.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we could talk with that forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, a listener question, which dub tails into some AI stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, we need the great, I don't know if we need the grand chat.
[SPEAKER_03]: We need some shot glasses.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, here we go.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've already talked what they had once, but here's our AI for the, for the week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to again, let link to this in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: But.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a guide, see, I don't know if you saw this, the Gotham Ghostwriters put together this really great AI reference guide and it is for kind of like Ghostwriters or collaborators or co-writers, but I think the whole document is great because it really outmides attempting to outline use cases.
[SPEAKER_03]: and some guidelines for how somebody would think about AI and their work.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I will link to this because I think it's a credible advice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Disclaimer, this is not legal advice.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am not, you know, condoning this as legal advice.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying, I know there's a lot of people out there looking for guidelines.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you guys can find that in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so back to the question that we got.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hello, it's not Yatim.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a paid subscriber to Substack, to value your podcast, so appreciate of all your wisdom.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm urging authors to revise in my first book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also thinking about query letters.
[SPEAKER_03]: My question for you involves your last few episodes where you've discussed how agents are using AI to read query letters slash submissions.
[SPEAKER_03]: I strongly agree with Carly that agents do not have the author's implicit permission to enter their writing into these LLNI platforms.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's got to be thinking that I'd like to include a disclaimer at the end of my queries to agent, something along the lines of, if you use AI, then thanks, but no thanks, slash you do not have my consent, and quote, not only would this create a healthy boundary, which hopefully affects my work, but I feel it demonstrates that I'm seeking a equal partnership with an agent and I won't do anything for representation.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love your thoughts on this idea, pros and cons, and or how to set this boundary without offending.
[SPEAKER_03]: agents slash editors.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just before we get into CC stocks on this, I actually made a reel about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was last week or a couple of weeks ago because somebody clicked it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You didn't see it about, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Somebody had broken in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_03]: They had like a list of things and at the end in their author bio.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they said something like, did I use AI question mark?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like Fno, anyway, I made a reel about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So and for some people in the comments, they were like, yeah, like, get him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then some people in the comments were like,
[SPEAKER_03]: That works for some people's voice.
[SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't work for other people's voice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, you know, how do you suggest any of these things in a business letter?
[SPEAKER_03]: So CC, I have a lot of strong thoughts about this, but I'd love to get your thoughts first.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that the listener's thinking about ways to set healthy boundaries in a way that's respectful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see any harm in adding a line in the author bio that says that AI was not used to generate any part of this manuscript and that the author does not and will not authorize use of AI in our book at the production stage or any other stage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see a harm in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I very much think that
[SPEAKER_01]: the risk will still be there, whether you put that line or not, because it's really hard to control.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very much great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a firm believer that agents, but it's not just agents, no one has the right to feed your work into LLM or any other type of AI.
[SPEAKER_01]: system.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually saw a post about a beta reader who did that, shared that with the author.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I asked AI what it thought about your management or something like that, and the writer was rightfully so horrified.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that what I'm saying is, and I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I think it's important to be like real about, you know, the risks.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no harm in doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure how far of a protection that's actually going to get you in practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it might be more the benefit might be more like signaling your stance on AI, which is good, is beneficial.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, especially given how our entire world is run by like five dudes.
[SPEAKER_01]: and every platform has all these weird opt-in opt-out things that we don't even know about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, think about all the software we rely on as agents and as publishing professionals.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the server, and a lot of people use Gmail as a server.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a whole bunch of talks about whether Gemini is activated or not, and what Gemini is doing with your work.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's Microsoft Word, and all the other Microsoft products.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually going to be really hard to create protections around your work,
[SPEAKER_01]: lawsuits that, hopefully, um, dial up the pain that companies have to experience when they do engage in copyright infringement.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those, those might help down the line, but again, I, I feel like I was just like a pessimist towards that answer, and I didn't mean to, I, I think it's a good idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's important to be realistic about, but that's actually gonna get you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that was a perfect answer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's a bad idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ton is very important and then just realistic expectations about what you are trying to accomplish with that line.
[SPEAKER_03]: And some ways I think it shows that you are plugged into what's going on in opens up a dialogue for the agent to ask, hey, so this shows me that you're didn't write your work with AI and that's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, here's, you know, it's just a nice entry point into that conversation because I have to have that with everybody that I talk to
[SPEAKER_03]: We're having all these conversations.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think just getting out in front of it is awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I agree with everything that CC said.
[SPEAKER_03]: And CC, I think, also mentioned, you know, there's obviously a lot going on about things on threads or any different social media platform about
[SPEAKER_03]: the beta reader that potentially did this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just discovered, actually, to be honest, sent this to me, I just discovered on Substack, there's this account called Lady Whistle Threads.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if you're a Bridger-Chent fan, you know, Lady Whistle Down and how she kind of tells the gossip of the tawn, but Lady Whistle Threads every week has been summarizing.
[SPEAKER_03]: what's happening on threads in the writer community.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so again, take it off the grain of salt.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how much she like links back to the original post.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how accurate her summaries are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, I don't know this person at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is not me, but this is just a plug to lady whistle threads.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whoever you are, if you're wondering what the heck happens on threads every week, can check out lady whistle threads over on subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of love that that exists.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I also heard about it in the same Bianca sent the message in our chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I heard about it when you did too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I kind of love that this exists because I'll be honest, I do not have the patience to keep up with all the threads drama.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm just not going to spend like my mental capacity is I'm a human, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like my cognitive capacity is limited and this is just not where I want to spend my energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if it isn't angry, it's not right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's hope it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a nice way to stay updated without having to like, it feels like every hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to be like every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's like every hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh my god, what did this person do with that person do?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I can be such a mean and scary place.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't keep up with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And not to say that, you know, it comes back to the whole power imbalance thing, but not to say that agents always have the answers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And not all agents are quote unquote, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: agents of authority on certain subject matters, but I find that the authority figures on different platforms are not getting top billing as opposed to the more inflammatory things that are happening on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just don't think writers are getting a lot of answers on threads.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think they're getting a lot more inflammatory content.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, like once again, not new news.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody knows this, but that's my two cents.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we are at the end of our recording time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thanks for hanging out with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: We hope you enjoyed the links that we have in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we look forward to hanging out with you next time.
[SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.