[SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome to Turned out a punk, I'm your host, Damien Abraham, and today on the show, a legend, a buffalo international legend from the band's snap case, Darrell Taburski, is here on the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, if you're unfamiliar with the band's snap case,
[SPEAKER_03]: For my money, they're one of the architects of kind of the modern hardcore sound growing up for me in Toronto.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were because of the proximity to Buffalo, kind of like the big, hardcore band for me and as such, Darrell was a big influence on me as a vocalist.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we have very different styles of vocal, but my gosh, I've gripped some stuff from him and snap case over the years in what I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it is a huge thrill to kind of get to do this with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't have never really
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm barring a brief moment when I met him back in like 97 at a show here in Toronto and he gave me some stickers out of his bag that he was carrying around Um, never really had a chance to talk to him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what a really amazing humble, great person as you'll hear in a second.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you don't know, I'm sure many of you already know this and this is not news to you, but there will be some cool stuff we talk about this that's probably news to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: In terms of news around the band's Snapcase, there is a pre-order available right now for Snapcase Optic.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a book featuring lots of great graphics, photos, and tons of stuff documenting the Snapcase history.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can order that as well as there's some we stand together, merch to benefit Lou Kohler from the great Sikvital as well friends of Snapcase and you can find out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where to get some of that merch over on in the description for this show But there's also snap cases Instagram and Daryl has his own Instagram as well, which will be linked to in the bottom in the description as Pretty much always Man, I don't really have too much to get to I don't know if I have any notes for today's episode But other than to say sit back relax and enjoy the amazing Daryl Taburski Unturned out a punk
[SPEAKER_03]: Darrell.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for coming on the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm as I was telling you off here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm very excited to talk to you because yeah like there's not too many bands that I feel like are more important to Southern Ontario hardcore history of my era.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then snap case even though obviously you guys are not from Southern Ontario but I feel like
[SPEAKER_03]: you were our big band growing up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, there's so much lore, so many things I've wanted to ask you about for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, excited to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I love your show.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the history of all of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like how organized you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're knowledge-based, so I have a hard time with a lot of podcasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yours is one of my favorites.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've listened to quite a few episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm honored to be on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That means a lot, and I don't know if you checked out Scott's episodes, Scott Vogel's episode by any chance, or two episodes, but Buffalo holds a very special place in my heart, culturally growing up across the lake, you know, we had Buffalo TV, so growing up, I
[SPEAKER_03]: commander Tom and the the beat necks beat necks cinema and Lockport Gambino for like all these things are just so hard of my DNA that Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna dig deep in some Buffalo Lord.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure, but a deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna start off the way they all start off Which is how'd you get in a puncture one of the first time you ever came across it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to just, how I first got into Park was first the music that I was into before that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I grew up in a pretty conservative family, you know, Polish Catholic family, my parents listened to Polka music.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the second I could find anything other than Polka music, I was pretty excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had some cousins that were listening to Ozzy and Iron Maiden and they got me into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: right away I gravitated into anything that was like kind of extreme for my family and my upbringing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went from listening to that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really, really loved Aussie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I had Aussie posters all over my walls.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a freshman year of high school, which for me was 1985.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just getting in the skateboarding because my BMX bike was stolen and I couldn't afford another BMX racing bike, so skateboard it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had been in the skateboarding and getting into my freshman class and was a brand new school, that didn't really know anyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kid sitting behind me says, hey, do you like park?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I tried to play it cool because I knew like seeing something in Thrash or magazine, but I didn't really know much punk music at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next day he brought in a cassette tape for me with, um, I think it was misfits, sex pistols, um, the exploited and I believe that Kennedy.
[SPEAKER_01]: bands, like over and over and over again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I found the WB and Y hardcore radio show Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first it was part of the then I found like the hardcore show, which was like every Thursday night from 10 to 2, 10 a.m. to the morning.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting because like buffalo, like as I said, growing up, it was the big scene.
[SPEAKER_03]: There were so many bands, there's so much deep lore in hardcore, and then recently, I've kind of learned a lot more about bands like the jumpers and kind of like that buffalo power pop punk scene.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there doesn't really seem to be much of a local middle chapter, short of the Google dolls.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like there weren't like, for how big it got and seemingly how big it was in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like the mid-80s there weren't tons of local bands happening till a little bit later.
[SPEAKER_01]: think it's partially true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could tell you about like some of the local bands that I was learning about there was humongous and there was a bank or tyrant scene I believe that was from Buffalo and there was a Rochester bank of hunger artist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, an hunger artist, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there were some bands that were kind of loosely connected to cannibal corpse, so there was Leviathan was a group, they played they were actually so my first punk show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was SMFU.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was 87 early 87.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was SNFU with the hunger artists from Rochester, Leviathan and another band from Orchard Parking were called the Snotty Talks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, I loved hunger artists, and then SNFU just blew me away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh my God, I just can't wait for the next punk show.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, that was it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this is my life now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I was just kind of learning about I didn't really care if they were local or not, you know, I guess so I was still so new to all of it and that that hardcore show that WB and my hardcore show was was amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I would do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't come in very well where I lived.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, I would do the thing where I would put my antenna to the wire mesh screen in my bedroom with a little bit of tin foil.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if my hand was on it, it came in even better.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd go to sleep at night with the record, hit record, and I hold out to the antenna and fall asleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when the end of the tape hit, it would pop and it would wake me up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I flip it over.
[SPEAKER_01]: And do it again, and then the next morning, I had a long bus ride to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't wait to just listen to all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I just had mixed tapes from the radio show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was like, my go-to for hardcore.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess we're still like a lot of bands coming through Buffalo at that point, too, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's such a, like, I don't know, like it's such a stop throughout the later 80s that I imagine the mid 80s was more of the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: that my next show is considered a super legendary Buffalo punk show and that was that was bad brains at the University of Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: And was it third man in was the opener which then became new balance which then became zero tolerance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was a surprise band and the surprise
[SPEAKER_01]: And that show, HR was kind of like duct taped to a chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was really frustrating because I was like, I just wanted to see like him like jumping off the drum kit and stage dives and everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was just going bonkers in this chair, like falling over and then they'd pick up the chair, but he was still taped down to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I
[SPEAKER_01]: They finished and then they cut them out and then they came up for an encore.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew I was supposed to be outside with my friends to get picked up on my father at that time and I was like, oh my god, there's just, I don't care if I'm grounded for the next two months.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm seeing this and he came out back flips and all the whole deal and I was like, I just loved it, I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the best.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's funny because you see SNFU and then you see the bad brains and, and.
[SPEAKER_03]: Canadian bias, maybe a little bit with this, but I think I'm fairly safe in saying this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think that's two of the best front people of hardcore history with Chai Pig and HR.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But both of them, I think famously, have very public struggles with mental health issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm fascinated, as you might have picked up from other episodes, of the way mental health plays a role
[SPEAKER_03]: like a lead singer's performance style, or even just like the choice to be a lead singer, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I've always found so awesome about you is because even when I met you as a little kid and it's kind of like the beginning of all this sort of like craziness that would then get really crazy around the band, you always struck me as being like very levelheaded and very balanced and I just say that in contrast to these
[SPEAKER_03]: very unbalanced and very unhinged and I think illustrated by duct tape in yourself to a chair which you know seems cool but it's also not the not the sign of you know someone who's approaching this with maybe the most healthy relationship to the performance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I completely agree with you about
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just both unique in their own right, but also the energy that they brought, and just, I don't know, it was just like, it wasn't like anything I had ever seen before in my life and or heard, you know, because they both had kind of really cool vocal range, also as far as like hardcore singers or punk singers, and I don't know, I feel very lucky and fortunate to have like started out with these groups, you know, and it just continued on after that.
[SPEAKER_01]: My start to hard core was just, I don't know, it's just stellar, it's just amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And third man in being the opener.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they blew me away because that was my first real experience with straight edge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I knew about straight edge bands and I loved youth of today in minor threat and things like that and uniform choice at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't seen one live yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember these guys in Mohawk's in the crowd.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking, oh my god, these guys look so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then third man in comes out on stage and they're like, fuck you, fuck straight edge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Mark ZT, who wasn't Mark ZT yet, but he just gets right up to the dudes
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the reverb on his voice just echoed through the whole place and then they just went right into a song and I was like, this rules, I just loved it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a few bands that I'm as fascinated by as zero tolerance and sort of like the the history of this band and all this sort of craziness, but so it's third man then it's new balances like the next name or are they kind of simultaneous?
[SPEAKER_03]: And would they be kind of the first band of your era?
[SPEAKER_03]: Would you say, like, obviously, the Googodols are going and they're in a cannibal corpse, I think, is probably going to this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like, in terms of like, like a hardcore band kind of coming, like representing capital H kind of hardcore?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_03]: These to play with MSI, I think, from up here too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember that's where I first heard the new balanced demos Glenn from MSI when I used to work with him, gave me a copy of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, where it would go was zero tolerance and everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like, was there, there's no strange bands before that, too, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't think there's like an early 80's traded Buffalo band that I'm missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Buffalo?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so like is it immediately after that that you kind of decide you want to form solid state or solid state always kind of card kind of forming in the background.
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably I think solid state started to form.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was 87 so I think probably a good two years.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it wasn't until really like the river rock era.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, treat by how much like Google dolls played with, you know, especially now like this week where the meme, the Google dolls, what were you doing in the 90s and meme has gone so viral.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like there's this whole pre-history to that that's like super fascinating where this band is playing with zero tolerance, like zero tolerance is on so many shows with the
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so I didn't get to see it, but there was a Google Dows random thing where they played on the front porch of a house.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe on Elmwood Avenue until the police came.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they were like singing about the police as the police were trying to remove them and just reel a super pump, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I did see the Google Dows play
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had mentioned to you forgotten rebels, but I thought that they were a Toronto band, because they're always kind of advertised as one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you had correctly, they said, they're Hamilton, but I saw Boudale's, I believe, with the ram rods, which was above a great Buffalo pump band, and forgotten rebels.
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, what a show.
[SPEAKER_03]: There used to be a flyer,
[SPEAKER_03]: for a show that Jill Heath did, and maybe Johnny Perdanko too was on that, but they did a show for the Necro's in Round 87, 88, and the Google Dolls and the openers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, they played tons of punctuals.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think right after that, right after that, they really punk era of the Google Dolls, the next stage for them was they were tight with Sam I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess, like, Samyam's also a band that, like, we just played with him in December, and it's still unbelievable, but I don't think they get the credit for how long they existed as a band, like 88, they're kind of starting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that until this was really weird and random, but step-case was in Japan, and we ran into Samyam on the streets in Japan.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, hey, we kind of know you guys that we started like talking and like they were really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: We hit it off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were then they're like, we're really tight with the goo down as we toured with them back in like the late 80s.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so wild.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like were there other bands kind of like doing that sound in Buffalo too, like kind of that I guess post replacements punk rock.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, it wasn't really my scene because I was just so ingrained in hardcore right away and they might have been playing like, you know, older age clubs.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, the only thing is that maybe the 10,000 maniacs, so they were kind of local.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: I never think of them as being a buffalo band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I believe, you know, some of them are from James Town, New York, but really, where they kind of like built their fan base, I think, was Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's wild.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's a lot of people from Buffalo that did bands after they kind of left to or like did joined other big bands and did other things outside of the city, but it is like,
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, growing up across across the lake again, like it was such a such a place of like all these cool things that kind of co-existed weirdly, like to think that the Google dolls in zero tolerance and cannibal corpse could all play a show together or at least be in the same universe as each other is just bizarre.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need a franco was the other one.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was pretty punk early on, too, like she came out of the punk scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, but what you just said about Guludal's, zero tolerance, cannibal courts, and even 10,000 maniacs, those people in those bands would all hang out at the same bars in Buffalo, the pink flamingo, or the continental.
[SPEAKER_03]: Members from all those bands would be there together, which is so strange, but like, you know, Buffalo's a small city, so yeah, I guess at that point, there's not that many bands seemingly, like not like it would be if years later when there's the tough low kind of era where there's enough hardcore bands even have like divisions within the hardcore scene.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, how would agree with that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Early on, Solid State shared a member with Watchman, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we went through a lot of drummers early on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of our early drummers and that a lot of people know this was Jason Corcounis, who played also then in a band called Spavid, which was from Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he later joined the Delta 72, and then he ended up with the burning brides and then hot snakes.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's fucking crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Jason was at our drummer in solid state, and he actually did like the drawings and our demos and stuff like.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, but yeah, that's because I met him when burning brides played up here one time, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my God, I could have been punishing him for solid state stories, the whole time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you ask about the watch,
[SPEAKER_01]: kick Jason out of the band and replaced him with a guy Mike made who was from the watchman.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason we did that was because Mike would play double bass and we wanted to be more like zero tolerance.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we wanted double bass in the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jason was more of like a straightforward.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't going to play double bass.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, so we got Mike in the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Mike ultimately wasn't like a great fit for us with like where he wanted to go with music.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we ended up with Tim who was at the time in Slugfest.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess that's also like around the time there's a few other bands forming there doing sort of like hardcore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, the buffalo local scene, especially that river rock can't face scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's when we had Watchman, no joke.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get myself in trouble kind of coming through this, but they're
[SPEAKER_01]: There were so many, I mean, um, discontent, um, you know, of course, like, slug fast in the pressure head.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I remember pressure.
[SPEAKER_03]: They might not actually do it from Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that I see that, but they were on round flat, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That comes a little later probably, though.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it might be a slightly later, you're right, then the period we're talking about here.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there's, I guess round flat records starts around this point, too, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it called, I think that comes, that must come a little bit later than what I'm talking about because the river rock is kind of like, against all hope, there's another band, you know, and Sender Black was another one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tim was in Sender Black, too, right, I believe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tim was, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, and Vogel was in, in Cinderblad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Vogel was in fade away at one time, which also has a frank and a bunch of other guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, yeah, those were all the bands coming up at that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think round flat was probably still a little bit after this era, or it's like the next era.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm actually, you brought the fade away and there was the infamous fade away two line filler split, seven inch, which had, I guess, some animosity towards it because the label decided to put a joke for the two line filler cover art side and I went with the guy Dave last to put out, I think that was his only release, maybe one of the record.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we went to see forward playing Buffalo early 2000s and we went to Mighty Taco.
[SPEAKER_03]: and Frank walked in and I'm like oh crazy Frank from snap cases here that's awesome and he got scared and made us leave right away because he was fearing repercussions for the fadeaway to line filler split debacle all those years later I'm like I don't think he cares so I think it's probably passed by at this point like oh yeah so fade away it was another
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is where my scrappy memory comes in the place, but they may have played the first show that we did, or I was on vocals and I was at a club called the ICARN and I want to say it was with Lincoln.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was either there were two shows and there was one where we played a Lincoln, but there was another one where we played with a bunch of buffalo bands like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think it was like fade away and I maybe suck fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't really against all hope I feel like that was like the lineup.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, the rumor that I heard back in the day, and this would have been after the fact that it happened, but that Chris left the band because he had fallen and hit a monitor and it punctured his lung at a show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that just like complete bullshit or is that any truth that rumor?
[SPEAKER_01]: that did happen, but that has nothing to do with him not being in the bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we were just starting to kind of play shows outside of Buffalo, first we were playing like Eerie Pennsylvania was sort of our go-to and the MIDI Rochester, and then eventually we got a gig in Richmond, Virginia.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Tim from mouthpiece would, I think he loves to tell the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we came out and Chris, he's my best friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he still is my best friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was just all about going bonkers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's just like, got to run full speed across the stage, and climb up the wall, and jump off the monitor, and crash into the drums, and he just was crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: and he did that and he jumped on the monitor and it just shifted and he kind of went Superman and he came straight down on his rib cage and he's not the wind out of him and then he had to go back stage and catch his breath and our guitar player Scott Dressler and he and I had to sing the songs.
[SPEAKER_03]: So was that your first experience?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah that was my first experience
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, singing their songs in the microphone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that might have set the stage so to speak for me, eventually becoming the vocalist, but that wasn't the point of that, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: When that point did come where you did become the vocalist, was there like was Chris just leaving and you were like, well, so I forgot to step up and do this or had you had designs by that point of wanting to do more vocals?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not something that I was prepared for or willing to do the other guys kind of wanted to push for it and I was so close with Chris it was like really hard for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: He, his energy was just not as much into the band as the rest of us, I would say.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just kind of were ready to like spend a lot more time learning our craft, playing music.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're learning to write better songs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just was always like a step behind at that point because he was doing too many other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was it, most guys were like, you know, I think Scott was the one who said I'm just going to call him and end it right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we're like, well, now what are we going to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's going to say it?
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't really take too long with there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should just do it because you're the one always booking the shows and kind of taking the lead with the band and you're the one that has like all the ideas for like concepts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't say that I was like in love with the idea, but I accepted it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, you know, a lot of people I think including Chris at the time thought, oh, he just wanted to take control, and he just wanted to do this, but that wasn't really the case.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's probably why you're so sane is because you were a base player first and then became a lead singer.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have that empty void that drew us the microphone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, maybe, I think it's my personality too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I tend to find myself most calm in some of the harriest situations and it's, you know, I guess people have to fight or flight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have this weird thing that happens where I don't really get either.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just sort of like, I'm want to slow everything down to the point where I can just kind of like stay calm and just kind of like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to like the KX, I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: If that Toronto show you guys played it was the matinee at the Elma combo downstairs and during your set you got hit in the head with a symbol and busted open and the thing that stayed with me and was a huge influence on me is just how you know sold that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you're bleeding but you're not like playing it up, you're not freaking out, it's just happening and it's just, and that to me was like
[SPEAKER_03]: that just influenced so much on the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, I was very deliberate in my bleeding when I was bleeding on stage, but I think the way you kind of handled it as the front person, I was like, oh, that's what you got to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just like, it just opened my eyes too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a scary type of performance, but like a type of performance in a type of way
[SPEAKER_03]: of, I don't know, just like the way the audience reacts to something versus the way you react to it as the performer and how that dictates the, the effective something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: While I was, you were talking and I was thinking about stuff like getting hit and ahead and getting cut open and bleeding and staying calm or whatever, um, when I, I've always been kind of like a smaller guy and in my neighborhood,
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to kind of get picked on or like, you know, but I wouldn't, I probably would still move off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember a few times getting kind of beaten up pretty badly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, where kids were almost like stomping on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it didn't, like, it got to the point where like, I was like, um, it didn't really faze me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember one time this kid was like, so upset that I wasn't falling apart crying or trying to like flip out and fight back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just was like, I was numb.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's strange to me when I think back to that time in that moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not like I was bullied a lot or beat up a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when this happened, when I seen group of kids, I just remember that was sort of like, how I ended up reacting after a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that has something to do with the fact that when crazy things happen, I don't like over-react.
[SPEAKER_01]: The police officer that did the reports that he couldn't believe how kind and calm the situation was, he's used to people like, you know, taking sides or yelling at each other whatever and it wasn't like that at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's the other thing about snap cases, there's a stoicism to it that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like defined it in the era to me to like you guys were a straightage band, but it wasn't like.
[SPEAKER_03]: like strife at the time was a strange band or certainly not like earth crisis was a strange band at that time which I know are two very different ways of interpreting straight edge, but like I think it was just like there wasn't the need to to yell about things or to like wave the flag about certain things.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just being the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for me because coming out of like listening to a lot of straight edge music,
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't even know if they were straight edge, but to me they might've, I don't know, the band that stuck with me a lot, especially lyrically, was verbal assault.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just thought, you know, these guys are different, you know, they're hardcore and they come from that scene, they're pretty, they've been around.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, but these lyrics are a little bit different, you know, and they're a little more personal, and they're a little bit about inner struggles and, you know, kind of like personal growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that just kind of like stuck with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we first toured with earth crisis and strife, I was really psyched that we were all straight-edge.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the strife guys would give us hell, but why aren't you exiting up for the show?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and we're like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not like, the straight-edge is not like part of our image or our,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, concept, you know, like we just happen to be straight edge and that's how we live, but, you know, we're not here to promote it, but I guess, you know, in a weird way, we were anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I very love Earth crisis and I love Strife and I think it was really kind of important what they were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And our, but our approach wasn't necessarily ineffective because I remember getting
[SPEAKER_01]: back in the day pre-emails, a lot of handwritten letters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would get letters from people all the time that were dealing with addictions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they would say that they felt that the way the lyrics were that it helped them, because they didn't feel like they were being attacked, there made the feel, like they weren't a part of the scene because they weren't straight edge or that they weren't good enough,
[SPEAKER_01]: that it was more of a personal struggle and it helped them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, it made me realize that, wow, this is kind of unique.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't expect this kind of outcome from these lyrics.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like I broke edge at 40, but or like 30 something.
[SPEAKER_03]: But until that point, I think like it kind of reflected the idea of like what does maturing as a straightage person look like, because I think everyone,
[SPEAKER_03]: When they get into it, you act up, you do this sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then what does it mean to just internalize it and just be a person where this is just part of who you are, not non-nidiology you're trying to necessarily promote?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like that was kind of really early.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was the way you were expected act as a straightage person in Toronto, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there wasn't a lot of crazy exiting up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's come back.
[SPEAKER_03]: But for the longest time, it was just like, no, just that's what makes it cool and political is because it's not something that you have to wave.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just something you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've always also both found it interesting that, you know, early out of a sort of like punk for a straight edge.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember there was a lot of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we had a couple of those moments also on tour, but like,
[SPEAKER_01]: The more I thought about it, there's really nothing more punk than being straight edge in a way, you know, because it's completely colored culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the opposite of what everyone else is doing, especially at a teenage, in the teenage years.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you might find this funny, but one of the gruddings we had was on what the band,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, whisked cotton, no, not whisked cotton, so it was something like seriously like South Dakota or Montana somewhere, I like rock that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we randomly were playing a show with 1500 tour, you know, cross paths.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were just open minded, we're like, I'm not cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: These guys, you know, I don't know much about them, but you know, it'll
[SPEAKER_01]: They just like hated the fact that they just couldn't help themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't need it to pick on us like immediately and instigate us to the point where we wanted to fight them or something, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were just harassing us, stealing our food, all kinds of crazy shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I don't know what these guys, what their deal is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was like a week later, and that same tour, we ran into a veil.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we knew that they were kind of type with 15 or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're like, oh, god, here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the avail guys were just awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we played the basement of the basement of like an old kind of like rundown hotel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was in Rapid City or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the crowd was just awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: The crowd was kind of like reminding me of the early days of like punk hardcore metal where like the kids don't get a lot of music so they don't really get a shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have like, like you said subdivisions within my scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they're just, they're all into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember just chaos and our John's guitar getting smashed and broken and he just smashed in half right in stage and the avail guys just like cheering it on like we just totally broke down that show like we came tight with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah 15 they they wanted to fuck with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's a geographical thing too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's it's changed a lot
[SPEAKER_03]: And hardcore on the West Coast is kind of taking up differently.
[SPEAKER_03]: I find, and I think like there's, it seems a lot smaller on certainly in the Northeast than it does in California, at that time where it was a lot more pervasive.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I can see there's a lot of cultural clashes between the coast to that point, not in a beef sense, but just like different sort of cultural things that they're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, back to zero tolerance like do they kind of I guess set the tone to for like the next wave of bands there's a lot more straight edge bands kind of in the wake of this band I think like yeah, the straight edge thing was probably stronger with the first wave of zero tolerance though because they weren't so much straight edge or about straight edge after that They were like kind of more like buffaloes
[SPEAKER_01]: version of like the chroma eggs or something, you know, and, you know, but, but Mark always was and and he was Krishna and.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think they, you know, Buffalo just sort of embraced like Krishna core and and and straight edge.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say Mark had a lot to do with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Buffalo's version of the Chrome eggs.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think sums it up perfectly because like they're a band that I would love to see documentaries and books of that because the stuff they, you know, like the rumor I heard that there was a drum machine used on the first seven inch.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that's true or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other rumor I heard is that they were someone in the band was the person behind the shelter
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: A member of gold finger being in the band, Darren Feifer, being their drummer later on, tool, open for them on the first tool tour.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's also the sort of tragic stuff around the guitar player and what happened with him later on in life and the unsolved
[SPEAKER_03]: there's also this world rejected too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're kind of the first one of the first bands on Jade Tree, if you think of high impact as being the precursor of the Jade Tree.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: What a band.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was pretty amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean zero tolerance at the river rock.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone would be such all the revelation tourists coming through or slap shots coming through
[SPEAKER_01]: the Buffalo crowd wanted zero tolerance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like they were gonna steal the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, that's just kind of how it went, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: The second demo is unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fire, I think it's fire starters, that was called the tape that finally got to fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know the fire, sorry, that's, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That thing's amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first seven inches cool too, but I don't know that second thing, if that had come out, the Comptrack II
[SPEAKER_03]: weird like it just feels like they're a band that needed an LP.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wish that would have been for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, you guys played with slap shot in Pitbull too, right with solid state.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why, I, I probably, I think we did that make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our first show was, um, we opened for uniform choice as us blood sucking freaks uniform choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the first solid state show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Was that at River Rock?
[SPEAKER_03]: Were they kind of going to the new sound by that point?
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess, or were they still like classic usual choice?
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember Kevin Debar having long hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh no.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then again, but then at that time, I think seven seconds might have been one of my favorite bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: and Kevin's seconds have long hair, and yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the seven seconds period where like, I don't know, it's interesting when you talk to Kevin, like it feels like there's a lot of hate coming towards them during that period too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, which I feel like is another part of being in a hardcore band is sort of this awkward stage where you're still in a hardcore band, but you don't necessarily wanna do the exact same thing
[SPEAKER_03]: but there's definitely a segment of the audience that does not want that change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I loved, I loved Newwood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did love that album.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I liked everything before that, but like, when Newwood came out, I was right there for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Was there any sort of negative reaction you had to deal with post-comitose?
[SPEAKER_00]: You coming to become the singer of the band?
[SPEAKER_00]: But you don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we were always kind of a band with low expectations.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when things would start to grow, it was just always this great gift that we were like, wow, you know, I can't believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you see another?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like 50 more people than we're used to, or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: No, looking back, you know, was just the first time we toured across the states was with lifetime and we played a show at lifetime, I think in one away or lifetime resurrection.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember, but it was in Vermont and the lifetime guys were like, oh, you got to connect with Margie, our books and our tours.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we did, and she's like, well, life times going on tour this summer,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember getting to California and just being like, I don't know, we're just gonna be like, I know, buddy, man, we're gonna be just, you know, the opener.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people singing along, and it's just as crazy as it was like another place, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_01]: We just couldn't, we were just thought so lucky and just like, wow, I can't believe this.
[SPEAKER_03]: In retrospect, it was kind of a really cool moment for our core where bands were becoming,
[SPEAKER_03]: able to kind of be like there always were national touring acts I mean but like there were like more national touring acts are playing together like a veil like lifetime yourselves but like there's no sound that connects anybody it's just like everyone's loosely punk and hardcore I guess everyone's hardcore that we're bringing up like now but but connects to the hardcore scene yeah I love that you know that was kind
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we would tour with a band like Lifetime and kind of like see their scene a little bit and like what made them work and what made people love them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, we would play with sick of it all and strive for the earth crisis.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we're obviously that was kind of like where we were fitting in, I like that, you know, say like one away on broken under to those kind of bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we would end up on like, other kind of shows like, we're like, scop, hunk bans and times.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in Buffalo, we would play with cannibal course.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I was just like, we were sort of like playing all these different types of shows, you know, and it gave us a little bit of an identity crisis I think, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: We never really looked like a mosh core band, but we'd do those shows and, you know, the, so, you know, the indie emo scene didn't really embrace us because we weren't that sound.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it was just sort of weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were like trying to be a little bit of everything, but it's interesting because I just talked to Dan from Dichoritz and a couple weeks ago for the podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I kind of weirdly see similarities
[SPEAKER_03]: Both of your bands were these bands that kind of survive multiple different areas in this music, and never really were part of a trend, or part of like an identifiable scene that you can be like, oh, this was this type of band.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I feel like those are the bands that wind up having the most impact later on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like certainly the way hardcore went, and you guys were around to see this as it starts,
[SPEAKER_03]: in the last few years where it's gone sonnically, you guys are the ones that are kind of bringing in like new school hardcore.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess is what you could kind of call it versus, you know, minor threat indebted kind of sonnics at that time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's other bands that of course converge and stuff like around that time period, but I feel like like now there's a post you guys there's so many bands that sound like they're influenced by sound snap case, which is yeah, it's just saying it's not necessarily a case back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: And no, I mean, I always when people compare new groups to us and it makes me very happy and like, you know, that's such a such a, you know, an honor, just such a compliment, as long as like the bands don't hate being compared to us, you know, but, but no, I think that's cool and, you know, we certainly have a lot of bands that we were.
[SPEAKER_01]: emulating and ripping off.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just weren't as good as any of them individually, but we kind of combined all of them to become what we are.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, but sadly, it doesn't sound like a band like you can't be like, oh, they're like, you today, you through band or they're like a post cromax style band, like you guys kind of were doing like your thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's became like, and obviously the sound evolves and you take it to different places the band goes on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but this is where I think the dichroids and thing is it's it's not like there's ever a sonic break and certainly seemingly from the outside, not like a personality break from like the original thesis of why are we going to do this band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We always, it's funny, like, because I remember, like, touring with strife and earth crisis, specifically, and what they were so into and what they were listening to, and we were kind of listening to what they were, but also a lot of other things as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we were into, like, I remember, like, we get into things like, fudge tunnel and, you know, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, and helmet and we obviously love quicksand and for guysy and and then we would love like sick of it all and biohazard back in the day and all kinds of like crazy heavy stuff, but we love cepaltera, I mean, like, oh my god, they played so much cepaltera on the tour van, you know, like we just mind stop, but
[SPEAKER_01]: We're somehow, how do we piece all this together, you know, and that's kind of where we were.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've always been a little bit envious of bands, just know exactly what they want to do and sound like, but then I also kind of appreciate bands that don't, you know, you know, when that whole, like, I think that Boston had that whole, like, wave of, like, youth of today, bold type of bands that came out later.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, you know, we didn't really like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they crowd love us to be honest, but like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was kind of a little jealous that they had like their their thing and it was like, they knew what they're, I mean, I feel like every guy in the band wanted the same thing and the only what that was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can't say that we always were like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I think it would be hard listening to fucked up by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, especially your new stuff, like, wow, like, I don't even know how you come up with that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's just like, it's like a so many different games and coming into one place.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like, you know, like, and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure if I could get Mike to talk to me for more than 10 minutes.
[SPEAKER_03]: He'd probably myth this too, but like, I feel it's like growing up around you guys grade too, like I feel like grade was kind of doing their own kind of take on things back then and just sort of like, you know, like we obviously, I'm like a nerd for every period of hardcore and love most styles of it, but there's this idea that like, yeah, this
[SPEAKER_03]: can I out judge judge like there's no fucking way but I can try and make my own thing and that's gonna be my own little space in this thing and that's like yeah growing up around bands that were kind of trying to do that and bands that we're doing that I think is influential and I feel like you know like some fire guys would probably say the same thing you know like a lot of the bands that were in this area like you just kind of like you know try to do your own
[SPEAKER_03]: People say Alex on fire sounds like gray.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think they would say that snap case was probably more of an influence on them than grayed was in a musical way.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I'm sure I've talked to Dallas about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's, yeah, like if you like that's kind of like what I want hard for to do, like I wanted to kind of like retain that soul, but still try and find new places to take it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I did love all that youth career of I will stuff, but I also can understand how,
[SPEAKER_03]: Not all of it was 100% as necessary, as some of it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that, you know, when we would run into other bands, like a veil, you know, where they kind of were like, you know, they were on lookout.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everyone's like, oh, they're like, Paul, they're cross-pumped.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, man, this is a hardcore band, you know, like these guys are hardcore, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, refuse and we met them and we met them in Europe and then we did a bunch of tours and all kinds of stuff together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And those guys were obviously drawing from like everywhere, you know, later on including like electronic jazz and all kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I think that's just such a cool thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you guys ever talk about leaving victory records?
[SPEAKER_03]: At any point, where there are major labels or any talk of like trying to
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, trying to go to like maybe more of a punk label at that time or, you know, some of the other places.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were free from victory, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was after, I think after progression we were sort of done.
[SPEAKER_01]: We could do whatever we wanted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And progression was our strongest record.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there was interest.
[SPEAKER_01]: from different labels.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Tommy Boy Records was one of them, which was kind of funny, because I took a meeting with Tommy Boy Records and Tom Silverman in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll never forget, he asked me how many BPMs are new material was that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, excuse me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, mid tempo, fast beat,
[SPEAKER_01]: Thinking like, this is not going well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is just like, this is not the right place for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're not dance music.
[SPEAKER_01]: This obviously, what they know best, they were trying to kind of get involved with some punk and they had some hardcore people working at the label, but so they murdered fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I got a call at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was,
[SPEAKER_01]: like the the singer of the offspray.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dexter Holland.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he calls me and he's like oh I'm hearing a lot about your band and I want you to I like to be interesting signing you to my imprint label and if you would come out to California.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we took that and I think maybe they were doing
[SPEAKER_01]: And but we weren't like super serious about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just we were kind of like being assholes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we went out there and I remember just being a mature and Trying to say keep them separated as many times as we could in the meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, merchandise and touring, and this can we keep them separated, you know, and I think they kind of like, we're like, these guys are not taking this serious and they just took a free ride to California.
[SPEAKER_00]: We play to show unexpectedly with far.
[SPEAKER_00]: After that meeting, same day is that meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were at the Roxy, who went and the whole thing was bizarre, because it's California, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we go to the Roxy and hang out with fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're playing a show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the other bands was a bank of Remi Zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the guy Remi Zero was dating a list of Milano.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she's backstage, hanging out with us and fire and it was so weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then far as playing, they're like, oh, by the way, we got an announcement, our friends from New York are going to play a bunch of songs on our gear right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They literally put us on the spot and we came out and played like four or five songs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like snap case taking the stage during the middle of the fire set.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's kind of just neat how this stuff kind of all comes around.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so what long story short, we did not sign to a major label.
[SPEAKER_01]: We went back to victory and we said, this is what we want.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't really want advances.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want any of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just want the very best rate on our CD sales that we can get.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we asked for, and that's what we got.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, and then we said we also want enough budget to go record and spend more time in the studio.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what are your experiences with Tony like?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you someone who I think has a mixed resume in punk rock, depending on who you talk to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's tough on me because for me, when we first met Tony,
[SPEAKER_00]: to take a step back, I had become, no actually, Chris was still the senior.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, Chris was the senior because he was on the 7th.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just remember going through maximum rock and roll and looking for independent labels that I could send cassette tapes to in a press photo and a little typed up blurb about the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: And victory was one of them that responded
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, my friends and bandmates are really into your demo.
[SPEAKER_01]: They, they get it more than I do to be quite honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he said, but you need to come to Chicago and play a show.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we went to Chicago and we played a show with far side from California.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the show was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: He went really well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I remember is Tony was he, I think he only had like three seven inches out at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, and they were all in stacks on the floor of his basement, he lived in an abacement apartment, and he was working as a waiter during the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I remember going to the restaurant where he was when he was getting out and met up with them and then we hung out, went to his apartment, we saw the record stack in this crappy apartment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was pretty punk rock, you know, as this guy was working
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, as a label grew, and then he got straight from, um, earth crisis and integrity had already been there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, it could have, like an explosion went off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this was 90s hardcore and, you know, all of a sudden, we were doing incredibly well.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was bringing on tons of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just wanted to take over the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, I'm going to like, you know, I want to be revelation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be like, bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm just going to just keep going.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he couldn't stop himself, you know, he would get into fights with like the Sony Rapid, uh, you know, over distribution.
[SPEAKER_01]: He literally, I think gotten a fight with him at a music show and he came like national press, like in a music industry, like he's just doing crazy stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just was so focused on being number one.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting because the label is formed out of strife.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I have the limited press of the even score 7 inch with the color sleeve and on the back, Tony's pen to letter being like action packed records, another pre-Jetry record link.
[SPEAKER_03]: a fuck this over from now on it's going to be victory records and I have another record on skiing where he wrote a letter to the kid because I guess he was distributing the away seven inch and their victory wasn't put on this back of the sleeve and so he wrote to the kid that ordered the seven inch about how much he hates skiing records and that we started this new label called Victor and he signed interstring Billings Gate and integrity and it's now going to be he's going to be doing it his way from now on like it feels like
[SPEAKER_03]: a lot of it was just driven by the sort of like angst.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when he was crazy, we walk around Chicago with him and we'd see a bunch of like Nazi skin hasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, he walked right up to one of the biggest dudes and ripped his like Nazi patch right off his jacket.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, looking at us, like, we were going to, you know, back him up, and we were scared out of our minds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, dude, what's wrong with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is crazy, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: But he would just pull shit like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it was cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we thought like, oh, this guy's crazy, but it's kind of, you know, in the right way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we had some incidents where we broke down on a tour and a blizzard.
[SPEAKER_01]: He showed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: got our van fixed, got us food.
[SPEAKER_01]: He did all the right things at the time for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we had built that rapport with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then he started as he got bigger and bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: The craziness just kind of like, I think took over.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of those behaviors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: first it was like, I don't know which but order it came in, but he used to actually have bands call me when he was signed that I remember Thursday calling me say no, Tony wanted us to talk to you about, you know, best ways of like manager band and what we should do and I think I spoke to like three or four of them on the phone at one time they're all huddled around the phone and you know, stuff like that, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yeah, he, he, he got his own way and, you know, get destructive, for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, every stage that label, and I guess it's kind of like following that sort of subpop philosophy where you just make the label bigger than the, than anyone on the outside could ever imagine.
[SPEAKER_03]: How small it was on the inside type thing like there's I was going I love going through the victory magazine, and it's like my god, the guy made watches like did you ever get a snap case watch I don't have one, I can't remember I remember that they were existing Yeah, they did watches for like every band and like certainly snap case at that point
[SPEAKER_03]: 100% people are buying the watches.
[SPEAKER_03]: Earth prices, I could see them selling a few watches.
[SPEAKER_03]: High-fi in the rope earners, like is there really like a demand for a high-fiber in the rope earners watch?
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, those were Tony's bro, as he loved those guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were Chicago, and yeah, those were his guys, but, um, thinking about like this crazy merchandise, thinking about you asking about major labels,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a time for snap caves where I started to get kind of, we were getting lost.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like we were losing our hard core roots a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were doing warp tours and getting another tours like pop a road and things like that, which was cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I think we're trying to cater to these other crowds a little bit and it just wasn't lots.
[SPEAKER_01]: We weren't going to be a radio band.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're kind of compromising our sound and ourselves a bit, you know, to kind of like stir up a big crowd at the work tour and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of that wasn't really my thing, you know, it just
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I just so badly wanted to be in a dark small sweaty club playing to people falling all over each other versus playing it one on the afternoon to 5,000 people on the work tour.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just, you know, and then the conversations on tour,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're the same, every day it was all about if you remember sound scan and sound scan was the measure of how successful your band was like how many records are you selling and what did you scan in this town and you know and I feel like the work toward figure out where you were going to place on the billing based on sound scan numbers and so sound scan was like this common like discussion and merch sales and like you know all these different things that were.
[SPEAKER_03]: getting print, you know, it just made me like think about like how right Fugazi was in so many ways, you know, but they were right, but it's interesting like thinking back at that time because like you're saying, and I saw Enson open for the suicide machines and it was like a very weird period where they had kind of like started adopting the sort of pop punk tropes to kind of get
[SPEAKER_03]: the audience to react because like the you know I know what it's like to be on these stages too right like you've got to get these audience audiences to react so it does start trickling into the way you approach
[SPEAKER_03]: the thing you're doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now it's interesting to look at this moment where like turn style has kind of blown up or even like home front who's kind of blowing up, getting bigger now, where these bands have found a way to grow, but keep that vibe from those dark, kind of basement, a hall shows there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to keep that vibe, they're as opposed to having to try and find a way to adapt to a pop punk approach to this music.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I was trying to be something that I wasn't and trying to get the crowd to circle, and do kinds of like, you know, some kind of like weird thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just wasn't pulling it off and I just didn't feel right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really impressed when people can kind of like, still be themselves, still be, you know, sincere.
[SPEAKER_01]: and command the crowd.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think like people like VOLGLE, like yeah, like he could play a VFW hall and get everyone going bonkers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he could go play it to like 10,000 people at a festival in Europe and get the same thing going.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just so sincere and honest and it's still so hardcore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have like, I don't know, like I think that's a special thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people can do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think Scott's a special case where like he's the ODB of hardcore in a lot of ways where he's like able to kind of like embody it in such a way that it does come off like you're saying like earnest and natural and not put on like when a lot of other hardcore bands are trying to you know request more stage dives in the monitors or something like that like it
[SPEAKER_03]: It rings, it rings hollow like if I were to try and do that, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: That being said, one of the greatest shows I've ever seen was the time at the Warp Turnt Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was 98, but it might have been 97, and you guys played the main stage, you're supposed to play the second stage, and then swap with H2O, I think, and you guys went on the main stage.
[SPEAKER_03]: And at that point, for me, that was the biggest hardcore.
[SPEAKER_03]: like set I'd ever seen because like it was like I couldn't believe they were that many kids watching a hardcore band.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it was the first work tour that we played, then yes, I remember that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was cool because we got to meet some other bands because of it, you know, I in death tones were one of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we got to kind of connect
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Larry N.V. was doing merch for you guys that day, and I think he was selling the hate breed 7-inch, because I think that's where I bought the A breed 7-inch.
[SPEAKER_03]: The smorgus board won.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm glad he brought up Larry because to me, when I think of Buffalo Hardcore, I think early days, I think of like zero tolerance and mark, I think of Scott Vogel and I think of Larry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are like the most hardcore Buffalo people
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's probably others that came on after that or, you know, just some others.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they just totally, Larry just loved nothing more in life than hardcore and skateboarding.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, you know, Guy just was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was so positive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the best person to have on on the road with us, too, because he just, he just had such a positive attitude in all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just took so cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know that show like there's so much that show that stands out in my mind, but they're all the guys from the Syracuse sluggers there too.
[SPEAKER_03]: It felt like kind of like a kind of coming out party for hardcore to the larger pop punk kind of world at that time, like this was like kids were dancing way harder than they would dance at a normal show than I that I'd been to up to that point, like Toronto was also in a very
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a recession for hardcore and downtown Toronto at that moment, but like it really did feel like, oh man, this is like there's something really happening right now and there and something didn't happen like right after that it was really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, we we welcome those types of things, but I still like my favorite shows when I think about the history of snap case will always be.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the smaller clubs, you know, I just was bonkers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, one show I wanted to ask you about that I saw a flyer was the last, ever, the last hardcore event ever at the River Rock FA, which was a snap case by that point you guys were playing it or is it still solid state?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a crazy one.
[SPEAKER_01]: that was absolutely insane show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Larry, France and Larry envy, he's, he's had ideas and been putting together images and stories to do a book on the River Rock.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, awesome, awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I used to be like, before I used to always carry a camera at show.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I sent tons of photos that I had from River Rock shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: sick of it all and I'm soul-side and seven seconds and I had tons of great photos from there.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was a big Nazi presence in Buffalo at that time too, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I heard about some river rock shows that got fucked with because of Nazis and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't big, but it didn't take much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I just it was a few guys from Buffalo and then a few guys from Rochester and they would team up
[SPEAKER_01]: they would go ahead and hit with zero tolerance for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's why I heard there was a kind of like the beef between the two sides.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it wasn't, I don't, I wouldn't say it was like, carbon, it didn't happen a lot, but you know, I guess it was there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But by the time I'm going to shows in Buffalo, which is, you know, few years after this, but there was that Nazi thing was completely gone, which I don't know if that's just because they got chased out
[SPEAKER_03]: aged out type thing but like it really did feel like that was something I'd hear about as sort of like something and you do that about Toronto too like we had the same thing in Toronto but but the time I started going to shows the BFG's had beaten up all the Nazis so there weren't a lot of Nazis around that point yeah you guys share members with the libido boys
[SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea till now.
[SPEAKER_03]: What an amazing Minnesota Buffalo connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: Justin is a wealth of punk and hardcore knowledge.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he, we met Dustin through with thread bear.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he played in thread bear.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we got a hold of thread bear, we were kind of obsessed.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, wow, this band.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just they're like better sounding like what we want to sound like, you know, like they're really amazing and when our base player Bob was leaving, you know, we tried out a few people, and but when Dustin came to Buffalo, which was kind of a crazy thing because he was living with with Norman arenas at the time, in Chicago and.
[SPEAKER_01]: Norman was, I don't remember if Texas is the reason was happening yet, but anyway, Dustin ends up opening a Buffalo and joining the band and Bob leaves the band and moved his Chicago and moved in with Norman.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, because like Bob, I think Frank, someone from no reason, some of the text of the reason they were all in support together, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: support was on Bob and John from snap case and then Garrett was the senior I think Ben from no reason might have played in it too the guy with the dreads I don't know Glenn Smansky okay me that's yeah that's maybe one thing is the dress and he's the one yeah okay yeah he was in no reason and you know part of the youth crew revival they were the local youth crew
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know no reason.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember gleaming in the reason, but I think he was in the later lineup of it when they had a second guitar player.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know way too much about no reason than the.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a great guitar player.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were they were a cool band and I think there was like a show around that time period too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Were you guys jumped on a surprise like local hardcore show type thing like it was a a smaller venue in Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got rid of 90 mercury lounge like you're a theaters maybe something like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and there I want to go so fucking badly, but could not get down to that show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did ask me about dusting and libido boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, Dustin before he was in thread bear.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was also in bloodline, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, which has, Jill and your four members, too, in bloodline, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah, he does things tight with those guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then before that, it was libido voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Justin always tells me that libido voice really wanted to be asked in a few.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could see that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That makes some plead sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I feel like SNF used like one of those bands
[SPEAKER_03]: Kind of was was going during the lean period of hardcore between like the the eighty four kind of cut off and then pretty post nervana explosion.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were kind of like they were kind of holding it down.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess the bad brains are two at that time period as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like obviously like the whole revelation thing, New York hardcore and even Boston hardcore or Snapchat and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That stuff was huge in Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: SNFU, I think, DRI, and there's another one, and I think it'll bring it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they were kind of like, they didn't really fit into that hole, like, New York crew kind of vibe, but like, all the hardcore kids love these bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, SNFU and DRI, and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those shows would just go crazy at River Rock.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's also probably like the nature like we're talking about earlier, like Buffalo,
[SPEAKER_03]: kids would go to all the different types of shows because all the bands would be at all these different types of shows.
[SPEAKER_03]: There doesn't seem to be any sort of division in people's tastes like in a metal, but you're also into like pop punk kind of stuff, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember, you know, going to see like social distortion at a VFW hall and going to see cannibal corpse and then going to see like, you know, sick of it all like all within like the
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I can't say I felt like I was more part of one of the other, you know, and Chris Gales and I, we would go to all the death metal shows, you know, with the obituaries and carcass and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love going to all those shows, staff, I remember seeing all of them, the sky room.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, once again, I think it's solid state you guys open for all.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw the flyers, so I guess they didn't show up.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have photographic evidence.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, no, I think that's probably right, which is like a weird bill to me, but it gets it makes sense in Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, I feel like we've been in more weird bills.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we played with bikini kill in DC, like at a small club.
[SPEAKER_01]: So with that was when Chris Gallus was selling the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really, I think Brian McChernon was there too, because I want to say maybe ashes might have played or something, but yeah, it was really strange.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you talk to them at all of that show?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was that was really strange, but yeah, we definitely, you know, we did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We played with the Google Dollars in Buffalo after they had radio hits.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was kind of strange, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we still played with that in front of like thousands of people, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Were people locally bummed out when they kind of changed their sound?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Buffalo people pretty much embraced them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe some of the really underground people, but not beyond that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come, it's kind of like a how we rock level departure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's a shock and like, you know, SSD did how we rock record and went like heavy metal.
[SPEAKER_03]: They kind of did that, but like when radio rock, and I know there's like some sonic similarities, but like it's really like a different sounding band after that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: my friend Bill Scott was a singer of ram rides and ram rides in Google Doll, they kind of like had to had like in the same trajectory and one of them was going to get signed and ended up being Google dolls and you know so I think there was like some weirdness and bitterness maybe like in those camps you know but the ram rides were amazing I don't know if you've ever heard that but no
[SPEAKER_01]: Jibon and twisting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got a good idea for Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you heard the jumpers from Buffalo?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That pants.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know a lot about that, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know much about other than finding the singles up here because I think they played Toronto obviously being so close a couple times, but yeah, like what a what a cool like musical history that plays has.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you like mighty taco?
[SPEAKER_01]: Today, that's so much, but in the day I loved
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I made a taco probably four or five days a week.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a mighty taco near the show place theater, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But before that, I don't know if you know the Buffalo sky room.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, so the sky room was a venue in Buffalo, it was in South Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it was big and it was like it upstairs venue and that's where like a lot of the big death metal shows would be biohazard, agnostic front, sick of it all were there and I remember Skigma sitting by himself and mighty taco and like like Chris Gales and I like just like should we go see?
[SPEAKER_01]: New York hardcore royalty, you know like it was just one of those kind of things I'll never forget seeing them sitting there like
[SPEAKER_01]: I might as well have seen David Lee Roth.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he had that big of a deal to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, holy shit, stigma, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the skyroat was a wild place because I think even like, you two played there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw faith in the more play there to like, probably like, 60 to 80 people once.
[SPEAKER_03]: Weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also didn't like Harvey Weinstein do shows in Buffalo back in the day.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he was like a concert promoter, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Buffalo needs like a music.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like book that comes out of theville history of Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: We played some crazy venue that Frank Sinatra had played a couple of times ago when we played Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: Probably the town bar.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it was the town.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it looked really cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like cool old.
[SPEAKER_03]: It felt like Sinatra could still kind of play their kind of vibe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think he did play the town borrow.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the whackingist too in Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's the mighty taco ads like that beat and the cinema stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there is this sort of, and like the Google dolls, like there's this kind of wacky edge to everything that's there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Commander Tom, morning show, type thing, two cartoons on the weekends.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we did have Commander Tom, but... Canada had Uncle Bobby.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know Uncle Bobby and it might be too old for you, but there was an Uncle Bobby show and it was Canadian, and that was a show that was on really early in the morning here, but I was a good early riser.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wake up and I would watch the Canadian, the CTV stuff and I would watch Uncle Bobby.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, Dustin knows it because Dustin growing up in Minnesota, they also had a lot of Canadian television.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was called the, um, and I don't know if this show was Canadian or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like a haunted.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a kid's like haunted house show, a head wolf man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, hilarious.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was a frightened Stein.
[SPEAKER_01]: hilarious house of frightens night high.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that in the Uncle Bobby show would be like one after another at like five in the morning and three in the morning at a Saturday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's stupid like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I always woke up early as a kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: So hilarious house of frightens time.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm probably the greatest Canadian TV show ever made, but yeah, very bizarre Vincent prices in it, and I guess the story was they got Vincent price for two days and they locked them in a closet and got them to record all his shit in like two days.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that I've actually shown my son.
[SPEAKER_01]: some clips of that show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the only other person beside yourself now that remembers this stuff is Dustin, who was living in Minnesota, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: But also wild is that in, in snap case, you have a member Ben Leifberg from Balance and Logan's Run, New Zealand Youth Crew Bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Ben was with us, so this although you're mine.
[SPEAKER_01]: for a few years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was with us when we did the snow jam to our cross Canada.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Ben was, he came from New Zealand to New York with a couple of other queues.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was working for Sick of it all as the drum tech.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when Tim was going to step away from the band to do PhD work, our mind,
[SPEAKER_01]: told us, and told Ben, you need to go play for snap case.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's how we ended up with Ben in the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Ben comes here, he plays in snap case.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when that fizzled out, he did a band with Frank and Dustin and the senior from 6th, go in at 7, and they were called, I'll have to remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, they didn't last that long.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, Ben moves the fact that he moves the Philadelphia gets married and he ends up working for the Google knows.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he still, that's his gig.
[SPEAKER_01]: He works for the Google house still to this day.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, that's from New Zealand to New York and it up with us in Buffalo goes a filly and ends up
[SPEAKER_03]: back with like this Buffalo connection this while that's to funny my I was looking at their records today balance and logins run and Clinton Chapman Mike my good friend put out a bunch of their records so it's like that's what I love about this like you're saying Jeremy from T. Chamori being in that room like
[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone in hardcore's resume can be checked.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we all were in these tiny rooms where there weren't more than sometimes 25 people and for lucky 10 people sometimes in these rooms.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like it's so cool to see where everyone kinda went out and did stuff afterwards and wherever everyone winds up and now how we're all weirdly connected back to each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think of those river rock shows because I was taking photos.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't photos of youth of today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the stage of youth of today, I can see Mark Z.T.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see Robbie from the Gooodells.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see Bill Scott from Ramrise.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you can't see is I know in the crowd was we're all the snap case guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Scott Vogel, 100% Garrett Clan, Texas a reason,
[SPEAKER_01]: um Mike ski from um brother's keeper probably the chokehold guys and and also I think a bunch of cleavoc guys because I think confront with him was on that show so it's like it's just kind of crazy for me to think like wow all in the same room at the same time just kind of like expanded
[SPEAKER_01]: Just mind-blowing, you know, just unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you think about like, not everyone's motivations, but like stuff that motivates people to go out now and the idea of like taking a picture of it or telling people you were there, like there's a social capital to this stuff now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Back then, there's no social capital.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're doing this, you're traveling around because you love this stuff and like, no one thinks it's cool, like no one,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's school with you or it your work is going to be able to like jive with you when you come back and start talking about this stuff, but like yeah, that's the thing is just everyone just believed in this and that's why people wanted to be there in these places and and that's I don't know it's just something so unique about it to me like I guess every people want to be places where they are, but I feel like there's few places that have
[SPEAKER_03]: less social capital upside to them than hardcore in the 90s.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a special thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, especially when you think of, I was talking with someone about this yesterday, I think, about, you know, the whole thing about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I first got into this, I always remember the
[SPEAKER_01]: And what was cool was like, as they travel each city scene is a little bit as unique and different, but I feel like since the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: The scenes lost a lot of that where I've seen kind of became more similar and I just kind of missed that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I missed that was really special about the underground.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's still obviously differences, but like not as extreme as it once was.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think there's also been like just a general cultural leveling where you can get the things that made something special like the regional food item is now picked up as a special by the fast food chain and you know you can get the recipe on the internet you can learn how to make it like everyone knows but it was also it's interesting how things flare up and things happen cluster like that like
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like we're talking about all these people that you're seeing at the river rock, then this generation of kids would all go in form bands, and these bands would have more people that come to see these shows, and you've got this sort of tough low period, where buffalo went from having, you know, these handfuls of bands, clusters of bands to being tons of different types of bands and tons of different people doing this style and.
[SPEAKER_03]: that it's it's interesting how it flared up and then they're still great bands from Buffalo, but it's not not that explosion like there was that time period.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and I kind of like I'm not as tuned into that as I should be, but I part of that was because we were touring so much during the era and there was one year old where we toured 10 months of the year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I really like there was stuff happening in Buffalo that I was completely not tuned into because just we were going you know and that if we weren't touring and then we were like leave to go work on a record or something you know and so I was like you know missing out on a lot of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that kind of also has to happen right with a band like the scene kind of blows up and then the bands that are in that scene that are able to
[SPEAKER_03]: that's when that next generation's hopefully going to step up and you're going to have that thing kind of continue and go into a different direction and do whatever it's going to do, but you never really get to to enjoy it when you're when you're living in it like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I as a as a parent maybe you find this and I don't know but I try not to influence my son too much you know like it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But do you find like your kids like are they interested in park hard core or are they not or and what do they and if they are what do they gravitate towards because that's what interests me I think it's cool my eldest I think me being involved in this band was a scared straight program For him when he was growing up he just was like you know I had all this strife about going on tour at that time and and like what am I doing
[SPEAKER_03]: should be doing this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I should be at home like so I feel like for him punk is probably there's a level of trauma associated with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whereas I kind of you know learn learn my way around the ship a little bit more with the second of the third kid so they don't necessarily have
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the same a version to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: They both have fallen in love with different bands that I would put into the punk world.
[SPEAKER_03]: But once again, you try not to get too involved because I don't want to snuff out this love affair, but my middle child, they're super into acid bath and stuff that sounds grungy.
[SPEAKER_03]: and my youngest child has these fixations where they just get into one band obsessively and it was Nirvana for a long time and then it was green day for a long time and now it seems to be David Bowie and so I'm intrigued by it like I and it's interesting because I played them everything and even acid bath like I played the massive bath
[SPEAKER_03]: But it wasn't until my middle child met some cool older kids at a high school open house.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were like, oh, you should check out this band acid bath.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they were like, oh, and they got super into it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I've had the guy in my podcast, like you've heard this band before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's funny because some of the, oh, what are you doing listening to lately?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, stuff that my son found that I used to like a lot, but I haven't really thought of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that kind of rabbit hole thing or like he likes to see like well, this band is connected to this band or if you like lead them, you might also like can somehow we land on fire hose, which is the kind of weird and then he loved the brave captain song that we hit and listen to it, oh my god, twice a day, you know, two and from school and like you're right, this is awesome, like I forgot how great fire hose was, you know, like this is so good, you know, like the
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know it's funny like he's just he's like is there anything else it sounds like fire always and like actually no not really but like it's so funny because like what would lead you to fire hose like they were kind of even a deep cut when they were popular.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like maybe we went from like black flag to minute mend the fire hose something like
[SPEAKER_03]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the, that's the also the interesting thing to watch with a younger people's music developments where you don't have the limits of availability and economic barriers to keep you from discovering music.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can kind of like free flow from one band to the other.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like where you had to buy a record and then find a way to enjoy it because you didn't have enough money to buy another one for a week or so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the snow jam the years you guys play snow jam was down by law mustered plug China to give us I don't know I mean, we did a lot of stuff with suicide machines at the time, but I don't can't remember
[SPEAKER_03]: And we remember if they played that or not, um, was it weird playing that festival with bands that are, you know, certainly more populist in their sound like like a mustard plug at that point or or like a down by law even.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean there were definitely some shows where, um, yeah, it was definitely some shows where we kind of were like eyeballs, you know, like like, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: But the hardcore kids would show out, you know, they would be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say one of the shows we played was in Regina.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that how you say it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And our record, entrance mission hadn't come out yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like someone burned copies of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the whole scene,
[SPEAKER_01]: They were all singing our new songs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like the first time, like we're super confused, but they're all singing along to the new stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really care that they didn't pay for the record, but that was the best thing, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a weird moment because like, yeah, that, when I guess people talk about being like the death of the music industry moment, where kids are burning all these records.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then almost immediately after that, you have this other weird period where so many strange bands are getting signed to major labels.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's almost like they're panicked on what's going to work, what can we sign?
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's that brief period where like post-hark or bands like Thursday, thrice and bands like that, we're getting signed.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I guess that's just after you guys kind of broke up or called it a day for the first time, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of, yeah, like I remember doing a tour,
[SPEAKER_01]: with boy-sets fire, I put together this bill, was like, oh, boy-sets fire, death by stereo and CKY.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that tour like realizing like, it's coming, what we're doing is coming to an end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't even so much because of the bands that were on with us, a little bit with boy-sets fire, but like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they were sort of like a precursor to like all that other stuff, but yeah, like that's when like bands like the next wave was definitely coming in and doing like, you know, a little bit more of the screamo type of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was weird because I think screamo was kind of like blowing up at the same time and then but then also a heap read in the whole thing with a heap read.
[SPEAKER_00]: And.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was, I'm actually, I'm Jamie's podcast, I mentioned this but like I had a hard time with it because I was like shit, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't, these bands were doing better than we were now and like I was a little bit bitter.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I look back at it and there's like, you know, these bands were all really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I had a hard time swallowing it in 2001 or whatever it was, you know, 2002.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's interesting though because like,
[SPEAKER_03]: like how do you guys all get along on that bill because I think all four of those bands seem like they're approaching it differently or from different kind of like places within sort of the punk tapestry um we got along pretty well with just
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like Boisets Blair might have had some internal stuff going on at tour, but like CKY, they definitely were throwing a wrench into everything a little bit with the crowding with some of the other bands at times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think their singer, Derr, was really super nice and the drummer, honestly his name was Jesse, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's BAM's brother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but he was very nice too, but the guitar player was just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: he was like definitely out to like stir-shin up and you know, but it was cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like it feels like philosophically a veil and CKY could not be further apart as bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: We connected very well with with a veil.
[SPEAKER_01]: We, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: But I, you know, when I, when I reflect back, I'm like, how lucky we were to tour with certain bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: The ones that I remember the most are always the bands that I felt like were like, just the hardest working bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I just learned that I really appreciate,
[SPEAKER_01]: Every time I die, like, they've been worked hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just put out that much material and be on tour and do as much as they were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Refuse, we're incredibly hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Avail, you know, I got to learn the days they have like six hour band practices and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They crazy, like they just be there all day long and sick of it all and like these are the bands of like, you know, we would tour with and we would become better because of that, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: is where as I remember Andy from every time I die as the psychotic roadie for despair like when despair would come up here he would be with his master killer tattoo just like breaking havoc in the in the mosh pit and then the next band like it feels like there's like a consistent I guess going back to zero tolerance like ever since zero tolerance has been kind of consistently
[SPEAKER_03]: waves of hardcore bands within Buffalo and obviously it's been flowed in terms of, I guess, local popularity, but there's just been sort of this consistent, like, place on the hardcore map in Buffalo.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel happy and lucky to be part of it, part of the history.
[SPEAKER_03]: This has been amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have way more shit and way more bands.
[SPEAKER_03]: I could take you through my whole box of Buffalo records and make you talk about every single one.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I will spare you tonight.
[SPEAKER_03]: But will you come back for a part two at some point in the future?
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love that.