[SPEAKER_01]: We're back, baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're coming in with a whole new energy and that energy being my EMI be sick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you guys have this meningitis scare going on over there?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is that just here?
[SPEAKER_01]: I literally haven't thought about meningococcal meningitis since grade seven when I had to get that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember we got like the head B-shaw, so then we got the men C-shaw, and the men C-wins were like, no, and to be the more painful of the two?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they'd always advertise it on the radio and the lady would be like meningococcal meningitis,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, no idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: There isn't a meningitis care happening here that I know, but I'm pretty out of the loop, so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, it's a good thing that we got those meant, wait, how do you say it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Manage a cockle meningitis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank God we've gotten those shots, because there is a meningitis thing going on over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that you asked me how to say it, and then didn't proceed to repeat it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're mad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not doing all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, you did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We heard it, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what it's called.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you really need me to repeat it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get a hand and say, call it on this podcast once.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cock.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's it, never again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry to hand as parents who do listen to this podcast occasionally.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they know.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know when to not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I have something to tell you about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really, really, really have you been keeping up with this Lindi West stuff?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, all right, so basically, you know who Lindi West is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I watched the first season of show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really, it was a good, I haven't seen him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, I don't remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I watched it during this era in my life where I had a very different brometer for quality.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have no idea if it's good or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I liked it at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whoa, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I've gone through similar eras.
[SPEAKER_01]: Eddie Bryant's so cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her career is so random.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That era of SNL people, I feel like their careers are very random post doesn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that there was like, her assesley strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are some like heavy hitters, Vanessa Bayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, what's like with the, like, weird of their careers going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to know what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a lot of that era or just like bad movies after us and all.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of their television shows got canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, they did not have a 30 rock moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a theory that SNL is the biggest residency for comedians.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's where your career kind of goes to stagnate and potentially die.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's what makes most of their careers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they're not famous before it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it depends.
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends because some of them are like big and like the stand-up scene before they get in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think I just think a lot of their careers don't actually take off and they end up kind of like rolling on SNL for years and years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I find it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just find, I don't know, I've just been thinking about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, thinking about this ever since that Veronica girl went on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious to know where her career goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it'll keep skyrocketing, but I'm like, I don't know, it just feels like an arcade medium at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a way that I find fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, to me, that kind of feels like SNL needed her more than she probably needed SNL as far as success, but I also do think that like having your name attached to an institution like that, especially if you're coming up on social media and like, you're part of this new wave of comedians.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it legitimizes you in a way that like you kind of need if you want to go into like more traditional aspects.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think she wants to be an actress.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that would make sense, but I'm just like think about all those ladies
[SPEAKER_01]: that other air of SNL.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like where have they gone?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they've just kind of floated into the ether.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're have they gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: SNL, I think the problem is is that like when you're at your peak popularity, you're doing this show every single week that takes up all of your time and makes it hard to commit to other projects.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that'll make it to seize on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Big as residency, big as residency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hear it's like very arduous, like pretty intense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, okay, huge change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, Lindy West, I have no idea how we got there, was like a very popular writer for Jezebel and other outlets in the early 2010s.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was kind of known for her brand of kind of like
[SPEAKER_01]: girl powery, a little girl ballsy, feminism, she's like a fat activist.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's cute, like a lot of people like her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She, she, oh yeah, develops trail, which is the show that starts 80 Brian.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's based on her memoir, I believe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like in trail, she's struggling with her personal image and dating and that with the end, she like ends up with her current partner, hawn.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then basically, very recently, she released another memoir called Adult Braces
[SPEAKER_01]: essentially takes you through the polycule from hell that she is currently still living in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to synthesize this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to try as best as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, a haem, the man that she finally found, like self, you know, like who was able to give her the love she had always deserved and needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: told her pretty early on into their marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've been together for 11 years, but I think this is early in the marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: He actually identifies as polyamorous and that he cannot be his true self unless he is non-monogamous.
[SPEAKER_01]: They very much talk about polyamory, it's a sexuality and not like a dating style or a form of dating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the first time I was introduced to the Almanagami as a concept was through a manor-peller article that also presented it that way, or someone was just like coming to terms to realize that managami is like not something I'm wired for, which I think, yeah, I do think a lot of people see it that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people see it that way, it has been debated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I believe.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even go into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He used this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a justification to be like, I'm gonna cheat on you so you better open up this marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she, okay, come into this with like extreme self-esteem issues, was like, I don't want to lose this man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she was like really waffling on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she didn't know if she wanted it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like really pressuring her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know when he was like, I need to be who I was meant to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so eventually she's like a way one weekend and she gets like she gets like a message from a fan I think it was who saw him kissing this other woman at like a venue late at night And he was basically when she confronted him he was like well We're nominologists and then slowly over time basically wore her down into being like I'm gonna bring my girlfriend like that girl into our marriage and you're just gonna have to deal with it I'm gonna either leave you or just keep doing this like it was very like against her will
[SPEAKER_01]: But because she's like this feminist writer, she's basically like reframed the whole narrative, like I think she's just really tried to cope with it by trying to frame it as this beautiful thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So adult braces is her coming on this road trip trying to figure out whether or not she wants this at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being like, yeah, I'm down for polyamory with my husband and his girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has since cheated on both of them with another person, like he's just like an actual demon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a bunch of articles are committed about that she was on the modern love podcast, which really framed this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a very sexy thing that she was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this woman clearly does not want this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the amount of time she has like stated that this brings her like anxiety.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think over the years maybe she's she's come around to it, but like this was not like a consensual, a fully consensual thing that occurred.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like a video of them a few years ago where the three of them are sitting and like his hand is on his girlfriend's The eye like the entire time in lindy is just kind of like sitting next to them awkwardly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so in the girlfriend's like very thin and like small and petite and it's just like it's just I think
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it's been like a huge topic of discussion because Lindi West is this figure of self-acceptance, and you know It's just like kind of heartbreaking to see that someone's personal life doesn't really align with their like ideologies That the ideologies they put out there and like how much it could be in Congress when like you just want to be loved and like how much of yourself That would be willing to give up
[SPEAKER_01]: in order to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this man just really weaponizes this language of like sexuality, and I like to basically justify like treating his wife really badly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine a man married to like a feminist writer would then yeah adopt the tools.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people have this idea that because sexuality is complicated and isn't always like aligning with morals on paper that technically like if you can phrase it properly,
[SPEAKER_00]: can like be like socially acceptable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying it's not so actually acceptable to be non-monogamous, but I think it's not socially acceptable to sort of enforce that into a relationship in which the other party is not interested.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I would say like, if I am in love or I've like someone like feminism,
[SPEAKER_00]: Out of the window, are you fucking like it's so hard to like practice what you preach when you have all of these other like stronger emotions Clouting your judgment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so fucked to because she basically has expressed that she wants she wanted like a traditional marriage with him She wanted kids and it's like no kids to be heard of now This woman in him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could be wrong the woman was living in Portland and now I think they're living in Windy's house that she inherited like She owns this house and those two fucking people are just living in there
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like Portland Seattle's worst, truly, like.
[SPEAKER_00]: I imagine it would also feel almost like something you would pride yourself in being open-minded about, that it would feel like there's almost something counter-intuitive to being like, being like, no, I want to impose like a traditional marriage here, like, I want to live.
[SPEAKER_00]: in this way that like we're always supposed to be like challenging like the structures of like the nuclear family or whatever and so when someone's like yeah I want to have like a more free love situation you feel like a weird old conservative for being like not like I just want to be with my husband well that's the weapon i's language right like it's it's him being like yeah you're not accepting me from this identity so therefore like you don't really love me and like you don't really like me and it's like well
[SPEAKER_01]: Like just never in those interviews does he talk about like lindies needs sort of like her like it's he's always talking about the girlfriends needs and And basically since all this has gone down because there's been a couple critical articles like I've come out and like people are talking about it a lot on social media He's been emailing all these journalists like a be really kind of just Rating like God Jesus that he's like the stereo type of this kind of guy in any mean like it's just like there is a type of person and he is like the epitome of that
[SPEAKER_01]: Another hit to the soft boys, what I'm going to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Pacific Northwest has its own kind of like there's like a brainworm being passed around over there that I think might be like it's really
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something's up over there and it's like the link which they all like it's just very It's own insular world because I feel like they thought this was normal to bring out But I kind of wonder if the book is like a cry for help almost like she's trying to check with the public to see if this is actually chill You know perhaps have an affair I'm gonna come and like make a hard stance have an affair Don't try and like moralize it unless you guys are in it like a
[SPEAKER_00]: Guys, affairs happen all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they good?
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably not, but I think it's better than like having an affair and then walking around like it's normal and also sometimes you just cut a let it out The hotness of the affair is also eradicated once you start like being weird and nerdy about it
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's also like morally right, just like the way they talk about menogamy is just so like they talk about it in such a condescending way and you're like You were being morally right, just and you're basically just kind of you cheated on this woman like it's not come on bro like yeah Just be a bad person if you're gonna be bad like go be bad, but like trying to justify it through this like moral Anyways, and like Pauli relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just don't start like that
[SPEAKER_01]: that's not how it goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone should be like an excited party wanting to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's the Lindy West, I have it's very, it's just like ultimately quite tragic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that like, very seldom do I think that the public should have a say in things or that like, I hope the public impacts, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I actually, this is a rare case where I'm like, I kind of hope the public response to this makes this marriage dissolve because
[SPEAKER_01]: She's this woman's 43 now and like she's probably missed out on so fucking much.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just so sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so sad and she should go right her next memoir, which is hopefully much more actually empowering.
[SPEAKER_01]: She should have a real affair.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know she's like hooked up with anyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're listening, go have sex with someone that you're not supposed to have sex with right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I don't know if we can say that about polyamory and then in the next sentence being like, you guys should cheat on your partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's call a spade to spade.
[SPEAKER_00]: He cheated on her, girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get him back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Girl, go get him back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cheat on me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I say, girl, go get him back.
[SPEAKER_00]: What did you say?
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, get him back, go cheat on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go get him back at him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Girl, get back at him.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've become like, glyphal talks like an abler's of each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today I said that I, I feel sometimes, like, I'm like the Alice in Machalka in art easy eight relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like, I'm really sometimes egging on hand as messy or side.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that sometimes she just needs to be messy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's good for her.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like whenever I want someone to like validate my less savory instincts, I can text my ear and she'll be like, yeah, you crazy freak.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like these two, she has like a little bad seed within her and she's been suppressing it for years and I think she should let it come out again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in my femon manipulator.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna cut that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Hannah and I'm Maya and this is Rehash, a show by the internet phenomenon that strike a nerve in our culture only to be quickly forgotten, but we think are due for a revisiting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And welcome to season nine of Rehash, this season we've decided to, I know, nine, can you imagine?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe it?
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be way more if we were actually good at keeping up today with our episode schedules, but we're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we posted up like a regular consistency, would probably be like 15 or something at least, but 9, we saw it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This season, we've decided to return to one of our favorite themes that we've covered on the show, which is sex and the internet.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we lasted this topic, we were like, this is our best season ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we had so much fun working on it, and we just figured it was worth another episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so, but we need to like have like an intellectual like lens in order to express that Because we're nerdy pervert but not sex nerds
[SPEAKER_00]: So this season is part two of a loose, no pun intended, history of sex on the internet.
[SPEAKER_00]: The symbiosis of our two most basic instincts, innovation, and getting off.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the two years, since we put out our first sex season, so many new stories of unfolded for us to talk about and we thought we'd kick off on like a pretty topical note by talking about the man of the moment, which is...
[SPEAKER_00]: fresh takes.
[SPEAKER_00]: The one's talked about him yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's pretty under the radar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So no, I'm pretty sure most people listening at least have a faint idea of who clivicular is because like every time I tell people that I'm researching clivicular, they're like, oh my god, do you want to hear my take on him?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like their eyes light up?
[SPEAKER_00]: But for people who don't know who he is or like for the sake of their own sanity, people who've avoided looking into him, I'm going to give an explainer of who he is just to kind of catch us up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, clivicular is the current face of the looks-maxing movement.
[SPEAKER_00]: You may remember that we covered looks-maxing this past summer as part of our season on beauty, and if you want to deeper dive into that world, I would recommend listening to that episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: But basically, looks Maxing was a fringe movement that sprung from the in-cell sub-culture where young men would like attempts to improve their looks in accordance to mathematical formulas of attractiveness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Their practices are often extreme and dangerous, and they involve taking hormones, supplements, and doing severe body modification.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't think that's really often because there are like a lot of them doing lesser forms of it, but yeah, there are more extreme versions of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Correcting.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was about to say, so you, my year covered the topic originally that past season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have anything to add about looks maxing or anything you think is worth no doubt?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I guess in the time since I wrote a bit like our episode is basically about the main streaming of looks maxing because it started like Hannah said as a fringe movement and then slowly has crept into
[SPEAKER_01]: younger and younger like chambers of the internet and doesn't really discriminate based on gender and so i think yeah that's been an interesting phenomenon and then it's kind of just escalated even since we made that episode but um yeah i would say that there
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's an entire wiki about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like a whole in-sell wikipedia that I find like personally, unfortunately, I love being in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I find it really interesting because some lovely autistic got on there and wrote like five trillion paragraphs about every like nuance and detail, like in-sell jargon and whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the looks maxing wiki is extremely helpful, but the practices are very wide-ranging and reaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would argue that looks maxing is kind of a form of biohacking.
[SPEAKER_01]: or it is a form of biohacking that is just kind of absorbed into this like larger era of Zempick and I think that's why it's becoming mainstream because biohacking has become so commonplace in the past couple years.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah nothing, nothing crazy to add.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just say that the bone smashing is not as frequent as people probably think it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think that previously people kind of considered it a bit of a myth as well, bone smashing, but as we'll learn, I think I don't know if I take him fully out as word for it, but particular insists that that is the secret behind his chiseled jaw.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, someone look at his flight receipts because they are probably almost all going to her D.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so because actually he's talked a lot about like how he's trying to he's like wanted to save up for that like that's what he aspires to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he would keep it much money.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's making.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a save up for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: He makes it a hundred k a month now but it's supposedly like I just think that he would be pretty transparent about it if he did get the double jaw surgery.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, why would he lie?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the one refreshing thing of like if we're gonna pick out one refreshing item, it would be that, you know, like Emma Stone's not telling us when or where she got that Fuck-ass-deep plain facelift, but Klovicular is certainly telling us.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's even encouraging us to do so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess there's always a silver lining up, so at the time we covered looks Maxing, like you said, like it was a bit more fringe, there was like no figure head attached to it, but yeah, it's grown in popularity over this past year.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say there were a few looks Maxing influencers that were a big topic of discussion in our episode who kind of pre-day clicky-ular, but are less like extreme, they're kind of like dumb puppy dog guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, like, the thing that makes Kluvicula send out is just that he's managed to like permeate into like the mainstream.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like for people who weren't aware of looks maxing, he's the person that's like introducing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the other guys weren't as, um, they weren't as like embodying of the insult spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of the other guys kind of disavowed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of the other guys kind of disavowed in Seldam, whereas he has like very much embodied those feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Kluvicular, who is Kluvicular?
[SPEAKER_00]: Kluvicular's real name is Braden Peters, and he's a 20-year-old guy from New Jersey.
[SPEAKER_00]: The name Kluvicular comes from the clavicle or color bone.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is of great importance, why are you laughing?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, just let me laugh.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have so much information to get through.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have so much information to get through.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Claviculate describes himself as being a socially awkward kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: He often refers to himself as an artist, although he was never formally diagnosed with autism, but it seems like most people when talking about him do accept this self-diagnosis.
[SPEAKER_00]: He exhibits a lot of the sort of more like noticeable traits of someone on the spectrum.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when people talk about his childhood, they're always like, you know, he was really lost.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was looking for a purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was one article that was like, he was really into nerf guns and then he tried getting into Catholicism and then politics.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, I think that's just means he was a tween boy and he was like trying a different interest.
[SPEAKER_00]: But people kind of like to be like, look, there were always signs that he had like an
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, in 2019, at the age of 14, which is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clavicular comes across videos of Nick Fuentes fans who are called groypers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then in these videos, they're like interrupting and harassing Charlie Kirk during events.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he thinks that these videos are like really based and dope and starts kind of following.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't they look like Charlie Kirk?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something I actually don't know much about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that Charlie Kirk is maybe there's like something more like mainstream and like nerdy about him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not edgy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean clovecular did once posted TikTok that was like Charlie Kirk's assassination is proof
[SPEAKER_00]: of why looks matter because if he was less ugly, someone probably wouldn't have hated him enough to kill him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so something to sit on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So naturally around this time is also when he finds himself in looks maxing forums.
[SPEAKER_00]: At 14 he begins ordering testosterone and steroids online and his parents are like former bodybuilders and so he starts using his family's like home gym apparently his parents try to intervene but he keeps going but also like why did you have a credit card?
[SPEAKER_00]: How is he able to do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know they're for world we're in, babe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I suppose so he became known in the looks maxing forums because he was willing to share photos of his face, but this also put him at risk of doxing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when he sort of university that's exactly what happened someone from the forums tiped off his school that he had like steroids and drugs and stuff in his room.
[SPEAKER_00]: and apparently he was kicked out after only three weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is around the time that he says he takes the black pill.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've covered in cells twice on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you able to just like briefly explain what that means?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, go to the receipt.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two times, I counted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, as like an admitted reader of in cell wickies, you know, I'm in so curious, not because I want to be one, but just because I'm like, what's going on there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so basically there's like pills in the insult community that are kind of like these like metaphorical kind of like they're lifted from the matrix, but basically you take the red pill and you start to see that's the we live in like a programist society where like the sexual stratification of society is like very much bent towards women and a lot of men suffer because of this and like don't get the the pussy that they wish they had that they are entitled to very much part of that doctrine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so once you take the red pill, you realize all this, and people who take the red pill can try and kind of like, ascend, they call it ascending, like, trying to send their status by various forms of like, transformation, so like, that's what we talked about in the gym cell episode, gym cells are considered red pillars.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there are people who take the black pill, and these are the people who like go and, for example, shoot up, you know, a dormitory.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not all of them, but these are their like, deities, and these are the people who have taken the black pill and realized that, like, oh, I will never be able to ascend its society.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm worthless, I'll never be able to get the pussy I am entitled to, and so therefore I should just fucking die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it's like a very nihilistic way of thinking, obviously very dangerous, because it's legit.
[SPEAKER_01]: People like Elliot Roger, a lot of these people refer to like themselves as going ER, which is like, oh, I've taken the black pill and I want to kill a bunch of people essentially.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like mostly used as a joke in the community, but even joking about that is insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, a clovey killer taking the black pill means that he developed like a very little sense of wanting to continue with life I guess, like not caring a nihilistic worldview.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, nihilistic indeed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's when he's taking the black pill that he begins working as a balancer at a club.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just where he sees that like hot guys are successfully going home with girls which deepens his commitment to looks maxing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a new jersey at this point when he's a balancer.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think he's in like He's in my am because he's like he like grew up in New Jersey, but then he moved to Miami He grew up in New Jersey and does not know Bruce spring.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's truly crazy I'm just thinking like New Jersey is virtually Miami on the Northeast and so they're like balancers everywhere like that's just like a jawab everyone does.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are balancers and But just like the dawn of like club culture and classic of life is like crazy
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he continues using steroids and testosterone as well as gray market peptides and apparently he says he microdoses meth to stay thin, although like I feel dubious about that because what he not just take like infedemines, would that not have the same effect as like microdosing meth?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that what he means and he's just saying it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's hard to know what he does for clicks and views but there's so many things he
[SPEAKER_01]: T doesn't seem like someone who would lie, so it's hard to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily know if he's lying so much as like he's exaggerating, like, yeah, I take some feelings that start with like meth, you know, and so when I get my prescription it's like your prescription, beginning with meth, is ready to be picked up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like not meth, but like I don't understand if you could just take him fed amends why you'd be like micro dosing actual.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like maybe he's taking meth because it's faster acting, because everything he's doing is like so expedient, he doesn't give a fuck about the like the drink.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does not care about the journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's all over the destination, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also says that he used like the looks maxing tactic of bone smashing as we talked about earlier, but maybe he did go to Turkey, who's to say, maybe he just like went through puberty and has a nice draw line.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's to say, how would you describe Glificulous Phase?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like very symmetrical.
[SPEAKER_01]: He certainly has a bit of a dissociated gaze.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not stare at anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is nothing going on inside those eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little alarming, but he has a chiseled face.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think especially, and this is all happened over a very short period of time, but the earlier videos and pictures of him, he has a bit more like fat in his face, like baby fat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now it's like quite hollowed out.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has these kind of like piercing, not what are they like blue eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he has like curly, very heavily styled hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but he's just like a very chiseled kind of pretty face because it's very like clean shape and then he wears lip gloss Yeah, it's almost like a fan-hand some squid-word a little bit like that He's like young enough that it doesn't look as fucked up as like older celebrities getting this kind of stuff done like it works And no, he doesn't he doesn't look fucked up like someone could look like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just when you know he's doing all that for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay
[SPEAKER_00]: But then it also sometimes like when we talk about his like credibility about what he's doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like how much of this was just puberty to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's that?
[SPEAKER_01]: He looks like that Superman guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's his name?
[SPEAKER_01]: The actor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Henry Klavel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Klavel.
[SPEAKER_01]: He looks a little like Henry Klavel, which is I feel like he's coming for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Henry Clav, the girl, Henry Clavical, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, he goes off following on TikTok where he posts videos, rating people's faces in accordance to PSL, which is the sort of like a track of this measurement system that combines the metrics from the forum's pickup artist hate, slut hate, and lookism.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he starts live streaming on kick, which is similar to Twitch, but like significantly less moderated.
[SPEAKER_00]: These streams last as long as nine hours at a time, and showcased the everyday life of Clivicular.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like his own Truman show.
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll like film himself when he's appearing in like other interviews.
[SPEAKER_00]: He films himself going on dates.
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll just film himself sitting in a splinter van.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And someone's filming for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, he's like a camera guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's got a camera guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's got a camera guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's got like a mic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like his own living reality show, but so boring.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've seen any of his content, then you might know that he's like proudly unfiltered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he loves to say the N word.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's incredibly sexist and homophobic.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then like obviously he's from the camp of the internet that like gets off on that kind of behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: He like...
[SPEAKER_00]: Post photos of himself wearing like a snap-back that says the end word.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a child of the forums and the when he yells at the Onward it's it's a really really embarrassing and he doesn't do it in front of black people like they're like videos of black guys being like Why do you do that bro?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like I don't know like I think it's funny But he's never actually saying it in front of them He says it in front of white people and it's just it's really funny like it is not funny because it's fogged, but it's like okay King he really is like 12 years old spiritually
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh I know when he says like the F-slower 2 it sounds like a boy in like grade 6 trying to impress his whole voice.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't like roll off the tongue I would say.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you say it it really should be rolling off the tongue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I just mean it's like, it doesn't even feel like natural like he's a normal bigot.
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit of a boy running into the classroom and saying, and then running away, which he has literally done with restaurants.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kick pays anonymous users called Clippers to take highlights from streams and post them on other social media sites.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Clivicular has over 900 of these Clippers assigned to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And apparently they make $30 per 1000 view.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is like a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, as we established Kovicula I first gained sword variety in the looks maxing world, but then he starts getting famous in like wider alt-right circles and like, you know, gets interviewed by Nick Fuentes and the summer starts sort of getting a reputation there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he also joins a fine group of popular TikTokers and streamers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're really famous amongst a group of young men on the internet, but I had no idea who they were.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they tried to distance themselves from him for a little bit because he keeps saying the end word, but then they like come back to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're easy to win over.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he starts being known to the mainstream public at the beginning of this year because he keeps making headlines for like crazy shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like first he runs over a guy in his Tesla cyber truck during a live stream and then says yeah and says on camera that he wishes the guy died.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then he's at the club with Andrew Tate and Nick Fuentes and they're proudly singing along to Kanye's hail Hitler.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in February, he walked in New York Fashion Week for the designer, Elena Valez, only a day after being arrested for possession of a fake ID and adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's the one who had that anti-bellum themed show a couple of years ago, if you guys don't remember that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the guest list for that show was like Tanna Mojo and George Santos and the red scare girls and like all of those her brand is like very loser behavior for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's definitely times square five million years late, but he also got into fights the night of that show as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: His publicist who is the same publicist as Adam Friedland and Candice Owens was like really excited about his arrest because he was like now you can take an iconic mugshot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, take that in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And anyways, the charge just got dropped.
[SPEAKER_00]: But while he's in New York, he starts getting a lot of like media coverage.
[SPEAKER_00]: His trip is covered by the New York Times, by GQ.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes on the Adam Friedland show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And more and people learn about him, they start getting obsessed with like his compulsive use of in-cell forum slang, which, you know, is like when he goes up the stairs and he calls it second floor maxing or calling things, he's like kind of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, the thing is he has the same brainworm that makes us talk like Tokyo Tony.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he calls things he finds dumb jester.
[SPEAKER_00]: He mugs which means standing next to people and being hotter than them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people on Twitter have compared his use of language to James Joyce writing Ulysses.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he looked, he's creative.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, curricula is like enchanted cultural critics, particularly millennials and older generally as people literally, you know, and it almost feels like liberal media is in like an arms race right now, over having like the definitive take on him and what he symbolizes about this age.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be definitive as fuck today so you guys better stay tuned.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I personally, I think that we need time and perspective in order to work that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the definitive, clear, clear article will be written in like a few years time.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't want to like fall into this trap of over-enphasizing his importance, but I do think it's like undeniable that he's sort of a...
[SPEAKER_00]: Frankenstein's monster of like the worst parts of internet culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think in keeping with this season's theme of sex on the internet, I want to focus on like one part of Kluvicular, which is his status as like a sex symbol of 2006.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the first things I learned about Klovicular is that he claims he's in fertile, due to steroid abuse.
[SPEAKER_00]: This fact gets brought up quite often in the media coverage of him, along with a lot of other statements that he's made that suggest that he's generally disinterested in sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, for example, he told the New York Times that he almost gets more out of knowing he can have sex with a woman than like the act itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also told Adam Friedland that he only wants sex to last a minute so that he can get back to work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which I think was his attempt at a joke, but like a lot of writers keep quoting as if he was saying it seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, Backer Roth felt in the New Yorker wrote, quote,
[SPEAKER_00]: Watching him, I could not shake the feeling that he has a smooth mound where his genitals are supposed to be as if he were a giant candle.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like from the media coverage alone, I kind of thought like going into this episode that he was going to be this new evolution of the manosphere.
[SPEAKER_00]: One with the objective is purely about vanity and like not about sex and woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: but then now I feel otherwise.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to know, like, what do you think is the objective of like these writers when they're like consistently choosing to frame him as like almost asexual in their pieces?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, does it feel like they're trying to to neuter him or something in order to minimize his ties to insult him so they can talk about the vanity aspect?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really complicated because I think the reason he's being propped up isn't so much about him as an individual But because he feels so like he's at like Frankenstein's monster kind of like the most intense distillation of our fears about younger Gen Z and like Oh, uh, he's like he's a bit of a
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, not even he is just a devil, but I wouldn't even take focus.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not being scapegoated.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is proudly involved with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he feels like something you talk about over a campfire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover clover cl
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I think in order to like talk about him and just by talking about him as probably we're doing right now, like you have to almost couch him in this larger cultural conversation around sexlessness, which is part of our fears about Gen Z and Gen Alpha, like a fear that I still have and like I still have that fear about them, I think that I'm like alarmed by how disaffected that generation is in terms of everything that includes sex and leg intimacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's probably why they're going for that angle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess the huge question mark is like, okay, what is the point of looks maxing for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what makes them so interesting because he's a black pill looks maxer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Looks maxing is like inherently not a black pill because you're trying to ascend.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is someone who was ascended and is now like, I hate speaking like this even earnestly, but he's someone who's ascended and now looks the way that he wanted to look yet still
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of hates women and wants sex with them to be over with spouse as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess maybe they're like confused by that Great area.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like for sure I think that I just a lot of the coverage that I've read is like Really focused on tying them to Greater kind of extreme movements of like male vanity and like Talking a lot about like peptides talking about like biohacking talking about like
[SPEAKER_00]: These other things that I think almost feels like yes, there's definitely the angle of like the sexless Gen Z But there's also I think to me it feels like a desire to in order to like deconstruct this person and take them seriously as this like maybe Potential new model of like male vanity then we need to kind of divorce him a little bit from the fact that this all came from being involved in like looks maxing for us
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, to me, this is like kind of done by either presenting him as being unmotivated by sex or by like hinting at some kind of gay subtexts in the New Yorker like Becca Roth Vel's wrote that the whole enterprise smacks of barely suppressed homo eroticism, my little brother called it Hellenistic, which I thought was funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I think there's certainly something camp about Kovicure and looks maxing in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: He literally wears bra in shirts like on his shoulders.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no, they're tits.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're literally like the stickiest stuff you put on your tits to cover up your nips in a strapless dress.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say he puts them on his shoulders to make his shoulders look bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he wears lip gloss.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's straddling these very confusing lines of like being extremely misogynistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: He hates them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like right side that he hates when a woman is smart because he thinks it's like stupid and Then embracing like women's beauty practices very boldly and so it's like he does do that thing of closing the circle of like home Arrottisism where it's like it's so straight.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I
[SPEAKER_00]: You know the Patrick Bateman paradox or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he fully I think he fully walks that that line in a way that I guess people are fascinated by But I got what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess like do you see him as like a sexual figure like
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, we're going to get into that, but like I do and I do think that like yeah, I agree there's like something kind of there's just hyper masculinity and like performed masculinity which like what we're talking about with him
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there is something in camp about that because it's like it's so sincere, but like misguided, and also then there, yeah, it's incredibly femme in his obsession with the way he looks, you know, people have talked about looks maxing as being honestly like a version of gender affirmation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, I can see that, but like, do you think that in portraying him this way we almost like run the risk of letting him off the hook because again, we're like, oh, maybe he's just a little fruity and not really thinking about the fact that he still hates women, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's hard because it's like...
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what do you do with people who were such major threats?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I guess maybe it's a form of emasculating Hitler, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, almost neutering the threat by making it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, unfortunately, at the same age, it's to call someone gay, which, you know, yeah, which I, it's kind of happening them into their words.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of homophobic, but it also is turning them into their worst fears.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, like, I've seen gay men call him gay.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's hard to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like people just don't know how to talk about him because he exists in this extremely, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: great place.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then is also doing so much harm to his young audience that it's like what do we do with him?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we don't want to prop him up as some important right when figure who has power but we also don't want to like undermine or like diminish the power either.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like what do you do in the middle which is maybe make fun of him?
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah it's hard to know how to do that I guess because he's he just embraces it so boldly that it's like even if we were to call him fruity for wearing tits on his shoulders it's like but keep does it
[SPEAKER_00]: He takes it very seriously like he really believes in what he's doing, I suppose.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I just kind of, I do think this implication that someone like him, which is like a man who hates woman and is vain, is like therefore gay and that those are attributes that we attach to like gay men, which is, you know, not.
[SPEAKER_00]: The case.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, not the case for all game and certainly not a lot of misogyny and a lot of game That was in percent, but I just think this like inherent connection between the two.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely a slippery slope for sure
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my favorite articles on clovecular actually came from John Paul Brammer writing in playboy, and in the piece he writes that it might be, quote, satisfying to place clovecular in a tradition of homoerotic narcissism.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's after all performing for a decidedly male gaze.
[SPEAKER_00]: and as much as caring about your appearance is kind of gay, so-to is clivicular kind of gay, but it's homo social intensity without the prospect of fucking, it's the aesthetic of the possibility of fucking, and when I started researching, you told me to read Raquel Benedict's 2021 article, everyone is beautiful and no one is horny.
[SPEAKER_00]: He means the Bible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that biobal, um, actually got my friend Becca who you would love also told me to read that independently.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, soul sisters.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the article looks at like how sex appeal in the action film genre like decreases as the beauty standards for its stars rise.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Benedict writes,
[SPEAKER_00]: Actors are more physically perfect than ever, and yet no one is horny, even when they have sex, no one is horny, no one is attracted to anyone else, no one is hungry for anyone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she blames this phenomenon on our cultural like reframing of the body as a site for self-optimization or violence, rather than quote, the vehicle through which we experience joy and pleasure during our brief time in the land of the living.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not a home to live in and be happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It too is a collection of features, six pack, thigh gap, cum gutters, and these features exist, not to make our lives more comfortable, but to increase the value of our assets.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you told me to read this article, like, did you have any other thoughts or observations about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, this just came up in my brain just now, would you believe it?
[SPEAKER_01]: But, um, hey, I just feel like a lot of sex and intimacy is kind of like being embodied, but not,
[SPEAKER_01]: having an awareness of yourself, like I feel like the best sex and intimacy comes from letting go of your idea of yourself, letting go of looking at yourself in that moment and like experiencing something as a completely phenomenological, I was used that word for this, but I don't know if it's correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: Experience, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so how can you be like a fully sexual person or like intimate person when you're
[SPEAKER_01]: constantly aware of the way your body looks in that moment, you're so cerebral about your own body.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like a half-formed thought, but I feel like the separation of beauty and horneiness is important.
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone is like too symmetrical, I can't really register a traction to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I keep calling it like the Margot Robbie Face Theory, but like, yeah, and so I think clavicular is almost sexless.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least, I mean, one is way younger than me,
[SPEAKER_01]: Sexless to me because I'm like, well that's not it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't see people like that as very attractive personally because I can't register it I don't know how to describe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I feel like a lot of popular male idols to young young girls like somber let's say You know are these kind of like very pretty Very symmetrical men that like when you get a bit older as a woman You can't really find attractive anymore because you almost like have a more developed sexual desire
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a Disney Prince, like you don't fuck a Disney Prince.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except for Eric from Little Mermaid, because he's still hot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, I think that you're undermining your theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that like it's supposed to be like they're sort of a representative figure and there's not really ever like any kind of possibility of fulfilling that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's something comforting about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like in the real world, if I see like a guy with a really pretty face, I'm like, like, Tim and the Shalom mate does nothing for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't not anymore, yeah, but who I who I like loved when I was younger, you know, and that's not his fault, like, you know, but it's it's Yeah, it's like 70s.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you look at 70s movies, like there's just something similar to people sexier than fucking Elliot gold in the long goodbye.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's kind of fucked up looking but I feel like and this I hope the same can go for women I mean I I think who's gonna love the medium ugly women you only mean and the insults never consider that the insults are never considering Women who can't get late they are never talking about those women those women are so abandoned and our cultural discourse
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's because they're not murdering people, well, certainly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to return to the idea of, like, Clivicular rendering himself in fertile through steroid abuse, because I think there's two ways to interpret that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we just kind of laid out the first, which is that, like, Clivicular is the ultimate embodiment of this era that, like, values beauty over pleasure to, like, the point that he neutered himself for a six pack.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that seems to be sort of like the dominant point of view on clivicular.
[SPEAKER_00]: But my reading is a bit different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I personally see clivicular as like the Icarus of looks back saying like he voted to close to the sun.
[SPEAKER_00]: He got too hot, too famous, damaged his body in mind to the point that like he probably cannot enjoy any of it and can like have all the sex that he wants.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like that loses all of it's like a peel it loses all of
[SPEAKER_00]: the excitement that like now he's sort of an emotionless like pleasureless husk because like I set up top that I consider him like a sex symbol of 2026 and I kind of think that the almost over stimulation of his like body and of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like a sex symbol of 2026 because of this kind of almost oversimulated nature through which he approaches sex because like he does fuck like a lot and I only had to watch one of his streams to realize how misleading these sort of like neutered media representations are because like this is a guy who's like
[SPEAKER_01]: hanging around with chicks like touching them is very much like motivated by the prospect of like having sex with women dude did you have you seen that video of him oh my god there's so many videos like this because he doesn't know game he you understand why he says that he had trouble making friends when he was growing up because you're like whoa yeah you are socially
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a video of him going up to this pretty blonde girl to club and he's like immediately I want to get all up in you like I want to take your clothes off and she's like whoa Why don't you try having she's honestly kind of dope But she's like why don't you try having some personality first?
[SPEAKER_01]: She gives him so many chances too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she keeps coming back every single time he blows it But it's like he's corny.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I don't know if he's like trying to have a kill count or if he's like hoarding I also I'm just going to interject that I think the first Icarus of looks maxing was this bodybuilder named Ziz who died in 2011
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that particular... Well, that particular... Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fullly put himself on that path.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I watched sort of his streams and I want to like, summarize it to you, because I feel like a lot of the people who are like, discoursing about him or talking about him or people who are reading about him and watching clips and like, not actually the people who would be consuming his content.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're like missing out on some of the more mundane, but like, telling aspects to the we is in his life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this stream was nine hours long.
[SPEAKER_00]: I obviously didn't watch all nine hours of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was able to skip to bits, but it consisted of particular attending to clubbing events.
[SPEAKER_00]: And over the course of the stream, he's like surrounded by girls who are so excited to be with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And every time I would like skip ahead, you know, his arm would be around a new girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he has no game.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one point where he's
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like with this girl and she says she's sweating because it's hot and he's like Do you need the odor in and she's like what do I need the odor?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like we you said you were sweating and I was like Okay, if this girl didn't already enter this situation wanting to get with you like this would have killed the moment
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not really some awkward shrinking wallflower.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like really gross misogynistic with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this one video, he grabs a girl by the neck and kisses her on the face within minutes of meeting her.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells a commenter, he's an f-slur for saying that he should ask for a girl's consent before he grabs her boob.
[SPEAKER_00]: He bullies a drunk girl into having a three-some with him by saying she's being really bitchy and then make it back to the house You like watch as the girls they bring home are like signing NDAs while he and his friends are like looking at clips of him on Twitter
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like, yeah, you don't see them have sex, but like, the when it cuts away, you know that that's what's about to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, he's not not fucking, like he's having sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's having sex with like girls who are incredibly beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just sent me a photo.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does this remind you of anything?
[SPEAKER_00]: This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, because okay, so this is my like thesis and I I'm kind of surprised like no one's really like made any sort of illusion to this in any of the articles I've read because Everyone keeps like comparing him to American psycho But I actually think like the best point of comparison for him is the works of harmony Korean Cuz like even on the surface he's microdosing math
[SPEAKER_00]: he's a white guy who won't stop saying the n-word and he like dresses like an extrinspring breakers but more than that he's like this deeply nihilistic figure and he's someone who like derives almost like no meaning from anything at this point and it just kind of reminded me of uh Tally's speech at the end of kids when he's like
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're young, nothing much matters, when you find something that you care about, that's all you got, you go to sleep at night, you dream of pussy, when you wake up, it's the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right there in your face, you can't escape it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes when you're young, the only place to go is inside.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fucking is what I love, take that away from me, and I really got nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that like obviously kids is like an incredibly nihilistic movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know, like a lot of his films are.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just feel like to me it's like someone who has almost like indulged so many of our like instincts that would proper socialization, we like learn to kind of like keep at bay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Click the killer got that duck drive for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: That there's like something so dark about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think that like sex is like,
[SPEAKER_00]: very much a part of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's obsessed with girls in the way that a 13-year-old boy who's never properly been socialized because pandemic would approach them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, he doesn't seem to be enjoying it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's just on such a path of destruction.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's totally said that he doesn't care if he dies as long as he looks good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the amount of shit he's putting into his body at such a young age is very disturbing, extremely destructive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He could die very young and he doesn't give a fuck because he's so young and he doesn't understand He doesn't know and you can see there's a video of him talking about how he's talking to a college and He's very much like and that's when I turned to this full throttle like fuck you guys Like if I can't have that I'm gonna do this and it's like there's a lot of like almost suicidal ideation wrapped up in it that feels very scary
[SPEAKER_00]: He said to people that look up to him, he's been like no, like stay in school, like do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he said that because I don't think yet he's gotten all of these things that like a dumb child might dream of.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a child who says that he spent like all of his formative years playing GTA and locked down and said that that was awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: like he's gotten all of the things that like at that kind of a kid could possibly dream of, but like obviously that's not gonna make you happy because no shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: He almost sees himself as a cautionary tale.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I mean, that's why I was like no one is talking about Harmony Karine here, like he literally like in the same way that the characters and like kids are spring breakers, like embody all of the fears for their specific generations that those films were put out.
[SPEAKER_01]: K2 had their brains melted by the like evils of their day or whatever People who like don't care about anything of like lost that touch with the reality and like that's what he is Like I want them to get in a room together to be honest It's a weird mixture of like unbridled hedonism but then extreme asceticism because he's he's like punishing his body so much It's it's really like a weird mixture of both he's also he's always on drugs in every
[SPEAKER_01]: clipies in.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also fascinating that you've called it the Truman Show because it is like, I saw someone talking about, he was a songpiker.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk about how he's like, he's just living through this extremely mediated environment where his entire life is a show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so all of his interactions are for his like weird little male fans and not really for anyone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, women with whom too actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like,
[SPEAKER_01]: So his in person interactions are so fraught and bizarre because he's doing it for like double using the chat, I guess, and not for his own life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like his life is only his life ended before any of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said Frankenstein monster, like he's almost not living already.
[SPEAKER_01]: The way he moves.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so like when he was talking to like Adam Freeland, like I just this really struck me was that Adam Freeland really tries to humanize him and like throw him a bone by being like We don't really talk enough about how hard it must have been to be like 13, 14 going through puberty And then the pandemic hits and you're with your parents all day and you don't like it to have all of these normal experiences And he was like He just shot it down immediately and he said that he didn't think the lockdown is bad
[SPEAKER_00]: for his generation because he got to say at home all day, play GTA, and like, didn't really seem to like realize that there was like he doesn't have the perspective of a life before that to know what he was being deprived of.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's become this like figurehead almost for like a sub-generation of like emotionally and socially and sexually-stunted young men who, yeah, like
[SPEAKER_00]: don't know what adult life off-screens looks like and then like in an article for GQ just so I go get a point out how curricular and like kids is age have quote never known in IRL sexual marketplace and like therefore they can't really understand the importance of like nebulous uncomodifiable qualities like chemistry and like riz and that like ultimately like sex is important to them because it's gamified
[SPEAKER_00]: because he like streams of stuff on the prowl like you were saying it's for the people in his chat.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like their sexy sin basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well that's kind of why I actually I don't fully buy into the idea that he's actually really horny.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine he has much of a libido from the amount of shit he's taking.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think a lot of it is actually just that he wants like a killed count because he has to live up to this like new status.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is allegedly ascended too.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I yeah it's so mediated that it's hard for me to believe that he actually is doing it for like
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if he is doing it for pleasure, but I think that his brain is completely occupied by sex as far as what sex represents to someone who had battery acid poured on their idea of sexuality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's like his whole world is stratified around sexual market value.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that sexual in that regard is not actual sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like aesthetics.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's difficult to talk about because, I mean, a lot of people were also mad at him Freeland, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a similar way, they were mad at Elenevella's for like putting him on the stage.
[SPEAKER_01]: People were mad at him Freeland for platforming.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see the two things, I see the two things that's different because I think Adam Freeland's interview, even though Adam Freeland wasn't grilling him, I do think he like, by virtue of being kind of like a funnier guy as well as being
[SPEAKER_01]: It's developing a personality and like carrying out women and and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's complicated because Klippicular is like a line to himself a lot with very right wing ideas.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is by all accounts quite racist Not just in saying the end word, but like he is echoed a lot of like
[SPEAKER_01]: White supremacist ideals and he's referred to the white race is like the normal race How he wouldn't date a black woman like he is kind of a white supremacist even if we don't know if he actually believes anything He says like he is peddling those ideas to a young audience so he's done like a lot of harm
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do actually think it is important to put him on something like, let's say, the Adam Freedlin show because we do need to like identify the issue and I do think the issue needs to be revealed in that way like I actually did like that interview because I thought it was a really interesting interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we need to see what's going on with the kids like I think we need to know so we can figure out how to like address it I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, also they share a publicist like,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so Adam Freedland is someone that like a few years ago we were like talking about as a figurehead for like a generation of guys that we also didn't like but for very different reasons and then like you know you're kind of learning that they're actually pretty well adjusted once you put clavicular in a room next to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you could really see the generational gap in like Adam Freedland came of age during like kind of almost girl crazy era of the two thousands
[SPEAKER_01]: At this point, I'm like, I don't know, I maybe would take that over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would take, like, she's out of my league over whatever the fact this is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, like, yeah, the importance of, like, being funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you call it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone said it was like, just her mocking?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, uh, I don't know who said it first, but yeah, that he just demogged it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, Adam Freeland is so much more attractive to me than Clevver Clevver because he's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was pretty, oh my god, him playing, um, he had one point.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like showing him music because Kluvicular doesn't know any pop culture and he doesn't know movies from before 2015.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at one point, he's like puts headphones on his ears and he's like, this song's gonna change your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I let he plays new slang by the shins, um, and it's so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, like, Kluvicular doesn't know enough about pop culture to get the reference that he was making.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was pretty good.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: to close off the episode and to maybe elude to next week's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to quote John Paul Brammer's Playboy article again, when he says, there's not much distance between curricular and the porn maxing gooners.
[SPEAKER_00]: The man who've bodily submitted themselves to worship of the fleshless internet image husks gone limp in the stream.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like going back to what we were saying just before the Adam Freeland of it all, I think that is ultimately like why he is the sex symbol of 2026 because he does represent just a group of men that only really see sex through this like mediated like digital gaze.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we'll like impact their actual relation to like the physical act probably.
[SPEAKER_00]: for their lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, it's a negative feedback loop of like being riseless, hating women, fucking women still being riseless, pushing those women away because you're addicted to them, hating women, like you just never ends because these guys are never looking inward.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they are like focusing on the surface.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're focusing on like, oh, how can I scientifically change my face by these quantifiers and never being like, oh, maybe I'm having trouble making friends because I fucking suck, you know, on the inside.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: The most annoying part is, is that Riz doesn't have the same power for women as it does for men.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say like Riz is like a secondary component for women trying to attract men.
[SPEAKER_00]: Men have the privilege of Riz of like pure Riz that you can look like Adam Friedland at have girls be like hot for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Adam Friedland?
[SPEAKER_01]: Adam Friedland?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not conventional looking, but I would not call Adam Friedland like ugly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't call it New York is beautiful only in the sense that like I do find the beauty standards here a little less restrictive than I did let's say in Toronto For both sides, like I don't feel as restricted here I can be ugly as hell and walk around the countryside and honestly feel totally fine about it I can be a little crazy Whereas in Toronto it's like if my bun is not sleek the fuck down I'm never getting late You know what I mean?
[UNKNOWN]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Adam Freeland embodies a type of man that the girl he's love here and I love that he was like They're girls walking around with like pure gargoyles here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like yeah, they are because like a lot of them And here are just kind of like talented writers or some shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, but that's what I mean like men have the power of personality So that's what it's always bothers me, but the looks maxes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even know.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they're like, oh, well, they're just status maxing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, there are girls dating ugly poor men too.
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as you're funny, like, you're gonna be with so much, bro.
[SPEAKER_00]: The things that ugly poor men have done to us, like, are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_00]: The world's always they're kidding.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: Clivicular can be rehabilitated?
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you think there's value in trying to do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that this is someone who's gone too far, who's like, I think he fundamentally just believes in like this world view of like the halo effect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that like, his brain is fried, his nuts are fried.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't really think that that's being turned around.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the future looks like for this young man.
[SPEAKER_00]: That being said, the boys who are following him who aren't microdosing meth and like,
[SPEAKER_00]: taking things to the extreme but like our 14 and watching him on streams and like haven't even gotten to touch a boob yet which you know could change their lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's hope for them and I don't necessarily like this is what I mean is like I obviously think that like he's a frightening sign of the times in a sense but I also don't necessarily think that we should like
[SPEAKER_00]: over and flate.
[SPEAKER_00]: The role he's going to have, I know some 19-year-old guys and I was trying to ask him about curricular.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are all going to explain why you know 19-year-old guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the real work, but I do know 19-year-old boys and they're so entertaining and they're like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so no, I know guys at the age demographic that are the same age, basically, as clear, and I was trying to ask them about it, um, because I was really curious, and they all go to the gym, you know, some of them are on like weird diets to, like, try and bulk or whatever, but like...
[SPEAKER_00]: I also know that they all are girl crazy and like either have girlfriends or like really want them and I was trying to be like, okay, like, what's the deal with the particular do you know who is two people, you know, I think he's cool and they're like, that's for people like way younger than us like that's for like 14 year olds and
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, that's not good for 14-year-olds to be consuming, but we grew up in the 2000s.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of fucked up shit that, like, guys, we know we're probably consuming at 14 and, like, maybe the ideology wasn't as blatantly, like, in your face.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think they were still absorbing messages that they were able to like come back from and like I don't know I don't want to be too optimistic, but I also don't want to be too sort of overly hysterical about it either I want to be a hysterical woman
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the particular person I don't, I haven't really fully decided whether or not he can change.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, he really just needs a little bit of contrapoints in his life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if someone could just like maybe send him one of her videos, maybe things would be different for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, come on King.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he very well could be too far gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is at the age that I'm like maybe he's malleable enough that
[SPEAKER_01]: he could get de-radicalized at some point.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is burning fast and bright though, he's it's concerning.
[SPEAKER_01]: The kids are very malleable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the kids that watch him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when he's a trojan horse contrapoints into one of his videos, like accidentally, like he stumbles upon one of her videos, and then his fans by virtue of that are like, whoa, and then they get de-radicalized.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to start like a woke big sister program, like, you know, like big brothers and big sisters of America, but it's...
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, they need a big brother, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe like a really, really cool woman in her 20s to like show them the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they just don't listen to women, that's the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the kind of contrapoints could be the woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, it's really frightening sign of the times, but hopefully this is like a more of a flash in the pan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like hopefully looks maxing, becomes so mainstream that it becomes lame in a couple years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're like teenagers all over taking peptides.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it is becoming like an actual problem, and it's very frightening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is just a more extreme version of teenagers getting fucking filler in their faces like let's be real here We we say that that's empowering and then this is scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like no, it's all fucked up in scary
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say, like, young women have been like nearly killing themselves to be beautiful, like, for the history of forever, and that's not to like minimize anything or say, like, well, it's fine because girls have been doing this, but I'm also like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's just, it's interesting to me that it's like suddenly this widespread panic, what it's like infiltrated the male imagination, but it's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: The amount of damage to the people's bodies that is irreversible that's been done because they were starving themselves as teens.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's like, it's totally acceptable when the female consumer is getting fucked by the long tick of capitalism and beauty standards.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when men start getting fucked by the long tick of capitalism, it's like, oh, well, we don't love this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you come up with that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't stop saying getting fucked with a long dick of XYZ.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a really funny Um, it's a really funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you make that up?
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm sure I swear it's like a super bad quote or something This is where we're out right now You know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I really watch super bad and I was like this is what at the best green pies ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so well written
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you re-watch it because you and I watch it I'm not kidding like two years ago together and both set the same weird like, wow, this is one of the best screenplays ever written.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is like without a doubt one of my favorite movies and you know who would probably really like it and you know who might be rehabilitated from Superbad?
[SPEAKER_00]: Glificular.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make-clavicular watch Superbad 2020s, say.
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.