[SPEAKER_00]: and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_00]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright everyone, we have a very special episode of The Shittin' on Tells You About Writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am here with the debut author Miranda Schulman.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wrote a wonderful novel called Harmless.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm holding it up if you're watching on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see me holding it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have an arc, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a finished copy yet, because as I interview the lovely Miranda, her book has not come out yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to talk about all the things that go into making a book a real thing out in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once upon a time, Miranda was exactly where you were.
[SPEAKER_01]: Listening to the shit known tells you about writing, drafting away, dreaming of this day, and now pretty soon on April 14.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do I have that right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's April 14.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that on April 14th, she will be a published author.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I will read her official bio, which is like super short and sweet, so Miranda Schulman attended Vard College, where she majored in human rights.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before pursuing a career in publishing, she worked at planned parenthood.
[SPEAKER_01]: She grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and still lives there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Harmless is her first novel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome Miranda!
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this podcast so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is such an honor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, I can't believe it's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is how Miranda and I connected, actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I did not know she was a fan of the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, it's wonderful because now I'm a fan of her novel and her four a fan of yours because that's how it works when you love a novel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so take me back to the Miranda that decided she was going to write a book,
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who was that Miranda?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where was she in her life?
[SPEAKER_01]: Was this always the idea?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, was this book always going to be the book that it became like, take me back to that Miranda?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the Miranda that began writing a book, which was not this book, okay, worked at Planned Parenthood.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it felt kind of important to conclude that as a heart of my bio.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was sort, it was the, I was in the donor services department at Planned Parenthood.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was sort of
[SPEAKER_02]: would spend my days waiting for calls from donors who either wanted to increase or cancel monthly donations.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was some downtime in between those calls and I have been a writer my entire life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in those in those down moments,
[SPEAKER_02]: I just sort of began writing on the side of my work computer and yeah, and so that's that was a different book that ended up being like I thought it was a novel and then I finished a draft looked back at it and was like, oh my god, I just wrote my life and so then I had written it like a memoir at the age of 22
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, yeah, it was, it was so, of course, that is living in a drawer, but it was, it was an amazing experience and it also taught me that I could write that amount of, yeah, words, I guess about, yeah, specific characters, you know, and in a specific world.
[SPEAKER_02]: So from there, I began working on.
[SPEAKER_02]: the draft that became harmless, which was nothing like harmless.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was really, it was kind of like a romantic comedy, which harmless certainly is not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's definitely a comedy in harmless and there's definitely a little bit of romance in harmless, but it's not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not a robocomb, it is not
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking like comedy writers, various books under their belt.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, okay, so I think it's literary suspense.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I've been told and that's what feels right to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: What would you say?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I definitely want to give you a painful, but to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I actually got a question from one of our listeners because to preface this this question, one of our listeners sent in a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I shared in my stories and I was going to interview you and it was like, if you guys have any questions from Randall, like obviously no one's read your novel, but they looked in the novel up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the people asked me, wait, so I'm reading her goodreads.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they said.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm reading her goodreads.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this sad girl lit now?
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel strongly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not sad girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and in fairness the person only read the good reads, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like right and I'm pretty sure they mean like the pitch on good reads.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they mean I don't know what they mean, but okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think it's more literary Definitely literary fiction Potentially book fiction just and here's why I think you might be book fiction
[SPEAKER_01]: There's this angst and this existentialism that you explore and this friendship between these three women.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying three, it's almost four because you also have all of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like this is a good moment for me to tell people what your book is about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, because I know people are saying, you're probably like, what are you guys talking about?
[SPEAKER_01]: So essentially we have, we have B, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is how the book begins.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm trying to think of how to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So B is crying over a jar of olives.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how we meet her in the first chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's her sister's memorial which was delayed two years because of COVID and Audrey who's her sister had substance abuse like she was addicted to I believe heroin and B was like taking care of her and like her sister was obviously their mom's favorite and she is getting into a fight with her roommate about the job olives because her roommate ate one of them and the job olives reminds her of her sister because it was lasting her sister eight point is I would say this book is about friendship
[SPEAKER_01]: B, Tatum, and Lila who decide because B has this idea to open up a canal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a childhood idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I mean by existentialism.
[SPEAKER_01]: So much of this book is when we were kids, we all had dreams.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to grow up and insert whatever we were going to do here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we all had crazy ideas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, my sister wanted to work at SeaWorld.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, usually it's not rational.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the young adults, they decide to do the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to say whether they do it or not because if like that's a spoiler.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's about their friendship and about how like the dynamics change from when they work kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that existentialism to me, especially for readers like Millennials, Gen Z,
[SPEAKER_01]: So much of the world is crazy right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that there's so much angst in this book that it's almost like literary angsties suspense.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I would say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just them?
[UNKNOWN]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, probably.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, thank you so much for that summary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've thought of it as a term that I learned weird girl lit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think it may fit into that category.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love to hear that it feels a little bit like it could be book club fiction because I like the idea of people talking about it and thinking, yeah, it starts conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: It really doesn't actually flagged.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we're not supposed to read from arcs guys, but please don't get mad at me for doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love and publish her if you're listening, don't get mad, but look at this, look at this, look at this, look, exert.
[SPEAKER_01]: helplessness could be paralyzing, terrifying, as an adult she still often felt it about her life, but also about bloodthirsty power hungry governments around the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yet even one faced with these irreparable slashes to the fabric of humanity, there were things she'd done and should do more of to take a stand.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the past, she'd protested alongside friends, held up cardboard signs, screams and chanted, and marched until her feet ache.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd phoned banked for politicians she believed in.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd call her representatives waiting for the beef and spoken passionately to their answering machines.
[SPEAKER_01]: She should do the same with her own life now because she could.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't a little kid anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it goes on and if I keep reading you guys are going to find out who is saying this and I don't need to because I feel like that's a spoiler.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this idea of I'm a grown-up now, I should have power, I should be able to do things.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a universal feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, I'm paralyzed because it is something that again, generations, like millennials, Gen Z, and I'm sure other generations too look proud, it's really not just us.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we've been feeling which is like, we're powerless against these power structures that the world and it had to mean as a conversation starter in this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this thread is woven throughout.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I read one passage, but I could have read so many others, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I mean, that's what I was thinking about in terms of
[SPEAKER_02]: child to dreams, like when you're child, you think that anything can happen in your life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as you grow up, you realize that's absolutely not the case.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there are so many things that you actually really can't do for many different reasons, like maybe you need to make money for, yeah, like so I think that was really what I was thinking and how out of control a person can feel over their own life, even when they're sort of
[SPEAKER_02]: doing something that they can do like in support of what they believe in outside of their own life, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of hard sometimes to turn that inward, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also, I thought a lot about the way that child dreams may appear in our adult lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think that maybe there's actually a lot we can learn from the things that we dream of doing when we're very young
[SPEAKER_02]: the kinds of things that maybe you talked to your parents about yeah like and they remind you that you really cared about it a certain point in your life and or with your best friends like the girl yeah are your best friends the way they do yes yes totally and I was sort of thinking also about like you know the ways in which those desires endure and then the ways
[SPEAKER_02]: what might drive a person sort of.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I was thinking a lot about like late 20s life and the fact that you can often feel a little bit lost in your late 20s.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I feel like I'm I feel like I'm rambling right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_01]: you know asking people at the table and and what does it say about you who did you tell who did you not tell when was the last time you thought about it when did you die because every child had dreamed dies even if you end up pursuing it like I am currently living my childhood dream I work with books but it did died at a certain point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a version of it always dies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like to me, huge booklet fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I highly recommend this to anyone who really wants to get in touch with.
[SPEAKER_01]: That version of themselves, that was idealistic and dreamy and just, you know, would take the world by storm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I'm a grown-up, I'll get to do X-Y-Z.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I forget which one is the protagonist, was thinking this specific part, but there's a part in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what she's saying, I think I believe it's 27.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, look at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a full grown adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do I have to show for it?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and this has changed, I think millennials were the first generation where this changed, where it used to be that adulthood looked the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: You typically graduated from college or learned a trade and had the house in 1.5 kids or 2.5 kids or whatever, the 0.5 kids situation was.
[SPEAKER_01]: and bought a car like there was there was a script right and there's no more script because the world has changed and it's all a dumpster fire and that creates existentialism and like issues around as existentialism right yeah so I think yeah maybe we're both rambling but it's a fun rambling well this is what I'm saying it's a fun rambling and it also is kind of like for me what I really enjoyed writing about like or what really drew me to write about this I think
[SPEAKER_02]: the inherent humor and the idea of these people who they really are not, they do not want to devote their lives to.
[SPEAKER_02]: caring for dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: They actually really don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: A hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a book about people who like dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was going to be in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's a childhood dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the candle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've only one of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Profit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not sure how that would happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that sounds a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, but I go to that intentional, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is you showing us that their their heads are in the cloud.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, one person's head is in the cloud.
[SPEAKER_02]: exactly, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I want it to be a little bit funny and not really makes sense, you know, and you can see that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they can see that and yet they're still, they're still invested in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're still invested in it and they're still doing it because actually that's kind of, I mean, that's the kind of loss that you can feel at this specific moment in your life when you're like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't really know how to where to go from here, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what, I don't know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that was what I was thinking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my childhood dream was to open a dog channel.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was my childhood dream with my two very close childhood friends and my sister.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it really, like, and I was, so that was what started the wheels turning for me, I guess, was like, what would have to happen in my life to make myself the me
[SPEAKER_02]: want to go back in time in some form and actually do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, so that was what that was the germ of the book, I think, and that made me, it made me really laugh to think about myself doing that because I know that that would not make me happy, but it also made me think about the pieces of myself that still exist from that, the child who really did want to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that was the germ for me and I'm so glad that it resonated in any way and feels like something that people would want to talk about and maybe relate to and.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are there, yeah, is be the protagonist that you're closest with and I ask because you start the story with her or is it a tourist or is it Tatum?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it high for not taking?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe Audrey, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there is there a protagonist?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess it has to be a protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be some more the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But is there someone that you're like, it's easier for me to access this person's psyche?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So definitely Tatum.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tatum is definitely the person who's psyche.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would
[SPEAKER_02]: It was easiest for me to access.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, be interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Be took a lot of time to get right?
[SPEAKER_02]: She's sort of all over the place.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of different things that I had to figure out how to justify about her, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a person who's living alone in the world, but she has pretty serious mental disorders.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was a lot of calibrating with B,
[SPEAKER_02]: I also, for B, what interested me was that I think without getting to in the weeds because people have not read the book yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And no spoilers.
[SPEAKER_01]: No spoilers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, that is important in this book, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think so she really thrives
[SPEAKER_02]: She really wants to take care of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants to feel needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the way that she connects with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the desire to feel needed because that makes a person feel safe in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like a punch of intensity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's also why the dog canle thing appeals to her as an adult.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants to feel needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I could relate to that part of it, that part of her psyche, but Tatum is a person
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I know in a much deeper way, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: So just, yeah, and be was constantly surprising me, but Tatum, I felt like I was sort of like in it with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And not that I've had any of the same experiences that she, that she it goes through.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I thought way she thinks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the way that she thinks, the way she thinks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she felt really important to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her character feels really important to me because my desire
[SPEAKER_02]: these sort of recklessness, and I can see that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wildness, you know, sort of, and then there's Tatum who maybe is a person who's having a lot of feelings that maybe aren't the most attractive, but that maybe we can relate to a little bit more in a certain way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, 100% of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it like, is it, so was the beginning always beast point of view?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like is that always the entry point into the story, or did you change this?
[SPEAKER_02]: it was always the entry point to the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really was.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say that there was another version of the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if it counts as a spoiler that I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it does.
[SPEAKER_02]: That Audrey is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll cut it.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we know this from like the pitch copy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Audrey B sister is dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's going to her sister's memorial, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: In another version of this book, she was not dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it was actually, I had four POVs, actually, in another version of this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, but it always started with B.
[SPEAKER_02]: It always started with C. And B was always had sort of obsessive tendencies in a lot of jealousy and I love her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's not so bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she behaved so badly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not going to say who or why she follows people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how are we saying protagonists need protagonism, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the plot can't just happen to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to make the plot happen to, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the protagonists need to make things happen and be makes things happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just say.
[SPEAKER_02]: She makes things happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will say like, what really kills me about that, the following is that she's a very, very lonely person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is actually her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like her very misguided way of spending time with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that can't cross.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, you never spelled it out, but that came out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so clear that she was doing that because she simultaneously, again, wanted to be needed, like you said, like, wanted to spend time with people, but also didn't feel safe enough to spend time with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, putting that distance, that was her way of connecting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying it was right, because of course it's not okay to go around following people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what we want interesting fascinating protagonist we don't boring protect this in our lives like down with boring protect us and be is not boring She I'm so glad you feel that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not boring.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, and that was also why I sort of felt I was really fun to discover her and I really did a lot of discovering as I was writing her and that's kind of how I write everything like I'm sort of I'm discovering story as I go and discovering characters as I go
[SPEAKER_01]: how long did it take you like to write the full draft and like essentially like the creation process up until the time you were ready to query agents tell us.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I I actually honestly I did it I wrote this draft the first draft very quickly I did
[SPEAKER_02]: The Jamie Attenberg's 1,000 words a day over the summer of 2021, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not work so well for me because I wasn't overthinking anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't nothing that I was doing was precious.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so important for me when I'm working on a first draft is like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm creating a world and maybe an energy and like a color for the book, perhaps, but I'm not nothing about the specifics is set in stone, nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the best way that I work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think is like where I just understand the world and that there's a draft where I'm just understanding the world and then there's a draft.
[SPEAKER_02]: After that draft where typically I throw out that draft the first draft like do you start over like do you totally start over blank page I wrote three totally unique drafts of this book before I began revising.
[SPEAKER_02]: any of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because that's just how it worked out for me this time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope it's not always that way because that is it takes a whole lot of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well yeah, so you know good good good books can't be rushed, you know, it's going to take as long as it's at least at least it's worth it because then the end you have this amazing product, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope, yeah, I mean I thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I definitely I feel really happy and proud of the process that I went through
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it's also interesting, you know, as I start working on another project, like the things that I'm taking from my first, yes, journey to a finished novel and the things that I'm leaving behind a little bit and also just like, you know, of course, I'm, you're to year, we're in different life circumstances, and so of course, you're writing practice has to change as your life changes, so yeah, so,
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's something that like I know so many writers who say this like their first book does often take longer because you are learning how to reach a final draft like a draft that you're happy with.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that part's normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like what about you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Agent part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how did?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you meet your agent?
[SPEAKER_01]: How did that happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about that meat cut story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I with one of the very early drafts of this book, I applied to a Fellowship
[SPEAKER_02]: sort of hosted by Stony Brook University called bookends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like a novel revision program.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you spend the entire year revising that novel first with a pod of three people including yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, and those are other like students of the fellowship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the second half of the program, you are assigned a mentor who is like an accomplished author.
[SPEAKER_02]: In my case, my mentor like sent me sort of an editorial letter and then I spent the, I guess it was probably like four or five months in the end working through revisions based on her editorial letter and my mentor is Karen Bender who is fantastic she's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so then at the end of that program.
[SPEAKER_02]: we were each matched with an agent and the end of the graduation portion of the program happens at the South Hampton writing writers' conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so at the end of the program, every fellow is matched with an agent and exciting.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not how many fellows are there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are 12 fellows.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's one unique agent per fellow.
[SPEAKER_02]: So actually there's one agent per three fellows.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there were four agents, I believe, my, yeah, I sort of went into my meeting, the understanding surrounding these agent meetings is that you are not going to be offered representation necessarily.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really just sort of like a meeting where.
[SPEAKER_02]: someone who really knows their stuff is going to tell you where your book might fit in the market, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I got so lucky to get like a consultation, like a meeting with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what the matter is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this album is at a conference you mentioned, is that right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It happens at the South Hampton Riders Conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and that's also at the beginning of the fellowship, you also spend a weekend at the South Hampton Riders Conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: the final weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's when the agent meetings happen and I got incredibly lucky and the agent I was matched with wanted to work on the project.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's fantastic and she's done so right by me.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's an amazing, amazing agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm so, so, so, so, so lucky.
[SPEAKER_02]: to be working with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and her name is Sabrina Tites.
[SPEAKER_02]: In case, yes, you should shout out to people that we have here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sabrina Tites at WME.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that was my sort of not normal agent clearing situation which was not here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys matched and you had like meeting and then did you request a fold?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you send it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so actually this is what I should have said those agent meetings happen after the agent has read a full draft of the manuscript So the thing that's oh that's really special thing then I know you know manuscript that is special Good job this is a good fellowship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's smart because like as an agent if we only return pages and in fairness We're gonna do this and volume this the only way but like in a special conference situation if I read a whole man You scripted and then it's it's a totally different conversation got you guys
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's, that's what's really, really special about the agent meetings.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and they can give you like really comprehensive feedback and it's a different kind of feedback than a mentor or like another author might give you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it's really, really valuable and it would have been really valuable either way, but I got very lucky.
[SPEAKER_02]: basically that I could take my time and make a decision in my own time and she would be there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, at the end of the fellowship, I had to work very, very quickly to finish a draft.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew that I could on my own, bring it to a place that I felt a little bit better about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I felt like I could, I could revise it myself for a little while because I knew what I wanted to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: after that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I stay in touch with Sabrina.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I stayed in touch with Sabrina.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love you.
[UNKNOWN]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and but I knew she was, I really knew she was my person because she was so enthusiastic, so supportive and so patient, like I could not have had a very ethical agent, right, because yes, I feel like someone who's like take your time, I'm not putting a clock on this, it's it's not that agents don't get to put a clock as long as everyone's being honest and the clock is reasonable, but it is it does speak volumes about how she is and that's really awesome, absolutely, because I think she also really understood that it was
[SPEAKER_02]: my very first experience speaking to another agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like speaking to any agent, of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so she was really, really patient and wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we signed together in February of 2024.
[SPEAKER_02]: 2024, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I graduated from bookends in 2023.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in February of 2024, I sent her the draft that I had revised.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we signed, I signed with her,
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we went on submission like maybe two and a half months later or so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Friday.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you guys do revisions together before suddenly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did a few.
[SPEAKER_02]: We did a few, it was it was not like the works.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like little tweaks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we went on submission.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: How long you to take to hear back from better.
[SPEAKER_02]: I yet again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet again, I got really lucky in terms of this part of the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: She sent me a list of, like, we, she talked me through each person that she was going to submit it to and explained why they would be a good fit in her mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we went on submission.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess, maybe I, I'm mistating the amount of time, but I think we want to submission at the end of May of 2024.
[SPEAKER_02]: February to May.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, so maybe it was like about three months, but and I signed or I was offered a deal in the middle of June.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so it was like two weeks, which I can't I was like maybe a little bit more than two weeks, but yeah, I'm so I was so so lucky and I ended up with the perfect editor for me yay I love so yeah, okay, you have to tell us because I know who your editor is and I had door her okay, you shout out the lovely Polar come on yes to largarcy or brown
[SPEAKER_02]: at Dutton.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is there is no one who I could like I'm so lucky to have worked with her on this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is like she's known for her great taste.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a really surname, very discerning.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's brilliant and I felt so beyond honored and continue to feel like overwhelmed in a way I still can't believe this happened and I cannot believe I ended up with a team that I ended up with it's Pilar, it's my amazing marketer, is about to sofa, it is my publicist, Lauren Maro, who is just they're all so gondon credible and I'm so lucky to have wound up with this team.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, we always say it only takes one yes, but the truth is that one yes can ripple into many many yeses for many people on the team and that's yeah, and I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so yeah, did you work on edits with Polar when we was at process like yeah, I we did three rounds of edits.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first round was more you know more structural edits I would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: and took a lot longer and was much a much heavier lift, I would say, most of the edits from that first round revolved around the ending, which, okay, because I think maybe I wonder if you feel this way, but the book, the beginning, maybe three fourths of the book sort of has one tone, and then the ending sort of becomes a little bit, maybe a little bit like faster or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like a little bit, maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not, I like what I was reading it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I didn't finish it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was reading it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I felt like the resolution of their arcs, like, but no.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I felt like, no, because I would have remembered.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, that actually makes me really happy because I feel like then this revision, that round of revision was successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, because I think I think maybe the first draft that she read,
[SPEAKER_02]: There was sort of a pace shift and she got you really, really helped me sort of get that in check.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if there is still a bit of a pace shift or a sort of a tone shift or whatever, I think she worked so hard and was so, so, so helpful as I was sort of honing that a little bit because it would this book is a lot of,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it's sort of very introspective, but there's also a lot of plot, anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: Three points of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: And three points of view, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, even the tall order, especially for debut.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a lot, it was a lot, but then we had a second round, and it was less structural, but still just sort of like, I think it was a lot about B still, a lot of making sure that what B's motivations are really track,
[SPEAKER_02]: sort of when she sort of flies off the handle, it fits with the rest of who she is a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Gotcha.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which was sort of that was the thing for me that was the hardest to get right, I think, out of anything throughout the process of writing this book, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then from there it was like another round that was even smaller edits and then yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was very loud.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now here we are.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you date you?
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another question I want to ask you is about breaking into the industry, a access community, like how do you become a contender in this industry and a lot of that has to do with like being around the right people and building the relationships that you have to build.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fostering community.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk all the time about the importance of
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be something as small as tagging author's and social media and a positive review anything like being a good literary citizen participating in the literary community.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was that experience like for you and what are your general thoughts on that?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I am extremely lucky because a family member of mine at this point my.
[SPEAKER_02]: boyfriend of 10 years.
[SPEAKER_02]: His mother is Meg Walitzer and she has absolutely been an amazing support and I'm so, so, so lucky to have benefited from that and, you know, she's incredibly generous in terms of feedback and if she reads her, she reads my work.
[SPEAKER_02]: She does, whenever she's like, yes, it's incredibly, incredibly wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's another another, I'm just
[SPEAKER_02]: still sort of in awe that this is where I've ended up because it's I mean my dad also was and is a writer and he published a collection of short stories the year I was born and you know to an with an independent publisher so he growing up was
[SPEAKER_02]: someone I turned to and he read like all of my essays when I was in school and I have always sent him any creative work that I am working on but yeah and so then I met Charlie and then I met Meg through Charlie obviously and she has just been absolutely amazing and it's through her that I found out about this
[SPEAKER_02]: This program bookends this fellowship and it's because she this is a program that she started and she read a draft of my novel that I had one of the many beginning very, very, very early drafts yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she thought that I would maybe really benefit from book and so she recommended that I apply and I'm so, so grateful because really everything has happened as a result of me doing that program.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I have a work entirely hard work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let us not discount that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we just take a moment to say how cool it is that she's essentially your mother-in-law, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you guys have been dating for 10 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to upgrade her to your mother-in-law right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: How cool that you have this relationship with your mother-in-law?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I have a great relationship with mine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's just something that if we have more of that in the world, better things happen because it's women supporting women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also just been, you know, she has created like a true career, you know, out of writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is of course it is absolutely amazing to witness that, you know, and learn from it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so few people have that perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm so lucky to be able to.
[SPEAKER_02]: look to her and learn from her in so many ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also just, yeah, have her in my corner.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's in, I'm so, so lucky.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's really important to be transparent about the ways in which
[SPEAKER_02]: We are lucky, you know, because luck is a huge lot of advantages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen, this is, yeah, this is true of every single person in every situation and that varies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you know, the interest things was definitely one of the novels that shaped me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that like the idea of being able to get feedback from someone like Meg, like that's incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just makes the work stronger and absolutely you should definitely advantage of that because that's that is how the world works.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that we're talking about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, so you've got a lot of good writing advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is the best writing advice you've ever gotten?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so one thing that Mag says often is she says that you should write what obsessive you.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a Mag mode.
[SPEAKER_02]: I must give her credit for this quote and I think I think in the in terms of harmless I took that kind of literary I mean literally sorry because there is a lot of obsession in this book is a book filled with obsession yeah there's a lot of obsession in the book but also like nostalgia is a theme that obsesses me like I'm completely that's my entire life right now is sort of
[SPEAKER_02]: thinking about the past and thinking about loss and thinking about like growing up that's just the face of life I'm in so at so I learned from that and I've applied that to to the kinds of things that I I enjoy writing about and I and I allow myself to write about because yeah because of that wonderful wonderful advice that I always I hold close that is a very good advice I like yeah I think that's it so if someone loves your novel what other novel would you say they should read
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, one of my major major major influences, which is not even a novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a short story.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called the Yellow Wallpaper.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's by Charlotte Perkins Gilman.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's something, it's a short story I read.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was middle school.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really disturbing, though.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also about obsession.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also about loneliness.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also, you know, it's a little bit about psychosis.
[SPEAKER_02]: I won't say more in terms of harmless, but yeah, but that's the short story that I think has probably the biggest impact on my writing, out of any other thing that I've read.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rebecca, by Daphne Dymoria.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's also like, the books that are about women doing that, like just having weird impulses.
[SPEAKER_02]: making bad decisions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are my favorite kinds of books because I can really to them in so many ways, even if not, to like such a dramatic degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love Patricia Highsmith.
[SPEAKER_02]: Honestly also, like not to just
[SPEAKER_02]: go with a lot of sort of folder, not less contemporary literary fiction, but Jane Air is also really important to me and is a book that I oddly listened to on, like, in audio book, or much like, yeah, like many, many years ago and I was, I could not stop listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was totally obsessed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like,
[SPEAKER_02]: taking very long subway rides with my headphones on like completely zoned out and missing my stop.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because again, it was just sort of creepiness, like women experiencing creepiness in the world of like sort of spooky creepy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if that's not my life in so many ways, it can, it's still like sort of an internal thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's so much like, like, I don't
[SPEAKER_02]: a woman in certain, devastating ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much of it is like, we want to, because I have the same taste that you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, how much of this is like us wanting to live vicariously through in a safe space because books are safe, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, you control what you stop reading.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can close it, but us wanting to live vicariously through these women who are not living the script that's society handed to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another question our listeners asked was, I really like, what is your biggest fear as an author?
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Biggest fear.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good question and is something I'm thinking about all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it like losing a whole manuscript because like your computer got okay, like your raised or something like I feel like it's probably going to be something like all right early fears are something like that like very anxious.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I am so anxious and constant.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, in a state all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And often it's not something that I externalize, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in my head, I am losing my shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Terri say on the shit, no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, so definitely I'm constantly emailing drafts for myself, a million times.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that thing has happened to that fear will not have.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not, yeah, I think like right now,
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just like thinking about everyone in my life reading this book and thinking about all of the people having an opinion about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just really it's incredibly incredibly vulnerable to put a book out into the world and it's not that part of it is only just dawning on me right now, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: because it's just about to have about it before you might have yourself from including so much into the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel lucky that it's only just sort of setting in the fear of actually just like, you know, judgment.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really my biggest fear right now as a divu author, like who is about to have a book in the world for the very first time.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also feel, I also feel prepared to receive criticisms, you know, and also and feel like everybody's not going to, this book is not going to resonate with everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is totally okay with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing that is interesting is universally liked.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not how it works.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really, really agree with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's taken me maybe like a little a little while to get to this place where I am in agreement.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, but I really, I feel proud of writing something that not everyone is going to love.
[SPEAKER_02]: That actually is something that I'm really excited and I'm excited to hear what people think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good or bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for our final question, I always ask anyone I interview like, please plug in a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be a book that you're excited to read, but you haven't read yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be a book that you just finished in your loving, a book that you're reading right now, anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be a book that you're some, there's excitement around this book in somewhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there are so many books that I'm really, really excited about reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: One that comes to mind is a book.
[SPEAKER_02]: This, I have not read it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not out yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it'll be out this week, actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, what's called a good person by Kristen Gaines?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I just, I think it's going to be so up my alley.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really all I have to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think it'll be up both our alleys, C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, because it's also sort of weird creepy by other women doing bad things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and Kristen's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a book I'm really excited about and have not read yet, and is coming out tomorrow so I cannot wait to have it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, and it's also gonna be made, it's gonna be a movie already.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's so cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, I'm really, I'm really, really excited about that one, and I'm constantly reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: finished rereading in the cut by Susanna Moore recently, which is like an erotic thriller that is it's a wild, it's a wild book, I will say, but I really, really, I enjoyed rereading it, and that's and she's also sort of in.
[SPEAKER_02]: and influence, I would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, those are, that's one book that I just finished reading, rereading, and then another book that I'm really excited to read.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our super fans will know that whatever I ask authors to plug in a book, they do at least two.
[SPEAKER_01]: That will be not our day one.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer Clos was like, oh, yeah, I'll plug in a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she said like seven.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for continuing the statistic because Bob there's nothing able to name only one book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could go on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could go on, but I won't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can not think of yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, round up there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to hold up your arc once more.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also supposed to post it, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to hide the posters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have so many points.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've annotated this book so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for joining us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for writing this amazing novel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't even celebrate with you at your book launch.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited and
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been an absolute joy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love this podcast, as I said before.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just thrilled.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's it for today's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, keep at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, it just takes one yes.