[SPEAKER_01]: Hey friends, and welcome to a very special, best-of-series here on the Christian Parenting podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Over the next several weeks, we're going to revisit some of the conversations that have meant the most to our community.
[SPEAKER_01]: The ones that have helped us think more deeply, love our kids more intentionally and root our family is more firmly in Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: So throughout the series, we're going to get really practical about what it means to disciple your kids in everyday moments, investing in their faith at home, letting God's character shape your parenting, building emotional health and strong boundaries, informing character and challenging culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: So whether you're brand new to the podcast or if you've been with us for years, we believe these conversations are worth hearing or hearing again, because parenting with faith, wisdom, and courage is a lifelong calling and none of us are meant to do it alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're so grateful you're here, let's dive into today's best of episode healing, boundaries, and raising emotionally healthy kids with Melanie Shanko.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Christian parenting podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Steph Thirling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm the host of this podcast, Executive Director of Christian Parenting and I'm a mom of three.
[SPEAKER_01]: This podcast is the place where you can bring your real self and be given the encouragement and resources that you need to raise your kids in the Christian faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just as a reminder, podcast reviews really matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: So please just take a moment to like, share, subscribe, give five stars, a redder review if you haven't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it so much and I'm so glad that you're here with me today and every week.
[SPEAKER_01]: So today, I'm joined by Melanie Shankel, and we are talking about her book, Here Be Dragons.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: We cover generational trauma, relationships, in the impact of mean girls on young girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate Melanie's focus on healing, in boundaries, in her book and in this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only way to raise an emotionally healthy child is to be emotionally healthy yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means doing some work, and it's never too late to for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen to this episode and maybe take a moment to reflect on your own life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any work that you need to do to heal?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are there any boundaries you need to put up in order to do that for yourself and for your kids?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot to think about in this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know that you're going to be challenged by note that you're also going to be encouraged to so enjoy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Melanie, welcome to the Christian parenting podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm so glad that you're going to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know our conversation is going to be incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be really, but before we just like dive into it, we have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because that's how we start getting to know you and your family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because this is Christian parenting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do, and then tell us about your family too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, um, my name is Melanie.
[SPEAKER_00]: I live in San Antonio, Texas.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been married to my husband Perry for 28 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an only child Caroline who is 21.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a senior at Texas A&M University and is graduating in May.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't blink or you'll miss it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It goes fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but I am an author.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a podcaster.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a speaker and I'm just super happy to be here with y'all today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to tell you that, so right before we started recording this podcast, I was at my kid's school for the Christmas page and it's the, yeah, the Christmas page and I was sitting there realizing that next year is my last elementary Christmas page.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have middle schoolers and up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I might too fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does go by fast, but here's what I will tell you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really do mean this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny because you can't imagine it at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, I do not miss the elementary Christmas school pageants.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like every season to me gets better and better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I love this season of parenting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's different.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's so rewarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something about it that I wouldn't try it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a friend the other day that was like, oh, it's the high school homecoming and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, and I know I'm going to miss it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I'll be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't miss it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's funny that things you think you're going to miss.
[SPEAKER_00]: That you don't miss much.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was probably fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't really miss a ton of things about the little areas.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've said this many times.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those just weren't not my favorite.
[SPEAKER_01]: This so far is my favorite.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, no, I'm going to
[SPEAKER_00]: Matt, it keeps getting better.
[SPEAKER_01]: It keeps getting better, which it's opposed to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a purpose of family for it to continue to grow and strengthen, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, it doesn't end.
[SPEAKER_00]: And no, and it really does.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's something we're warning about having adult kids because you get to see like, they did listen to a lot of things I said, or they have turned in to wonderful human beings.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know, it's the reward of all the blood sweat and tears you're pouring in now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do look forward to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be sweet time.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so I also, you have to describe your family in one word or phrase.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think, listen, this is not the most spiritual of words, but we're funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that would be like, we're, we're just all three of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, we are a family that prioritizes humor.
[SPEAKER_00]: We love dry humor.
[SPEAKER_00]: We love dark humor.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are, we are just funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: We laugh a lot when we're together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who is the funniest?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Harry, my husband is probably the funniest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Caroline, to me, is a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she watching her since a humor is just, it delights me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those things in the mom where you're like, I didn't know that I was gonna value this so much, but when she knows how to do a perfectly time, like one-off comment, I'm like, I'm so proud of that skill.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: My middle is kind of like that, but he's 10.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's just learning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so sometimes it'll be a total miss.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, yeah, honey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, that was funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now we have to go back to being nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a we have to practice it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to hone that skill a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's worthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was very funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is fun to watch him grow into that a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even a lot along the way for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we're going to talk about relationships, friendship, parenting, trauma healing, all these things are found in your book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here, be dragons, which already told you has the prettiest cover.
[SPEAKER_01]: I adore it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the book is really good, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I want and I have so many thoughts and questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I could have probably a whole series of podcasts on this because there's just a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: lot of places we could go but can you just give us like a little summary so that people have just kind of like a general understanding of where your heart is where your story is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, so the subtitle for the book is treading the deep waters of methodhood, mean girls, and generational trauma.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so listen, it's just a light-hearted book.
[SPEAKER_00]: As you can tell by that, but it really is the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of, I tried to write it as two things, like it's my personal story, but also maybe some sort of road map for moms coming at behind me who are dealing with a lot of those dynamics themselves, because it's kind of,
[SPEAKER_00]: about my story of the realization that the only way to raise an emotionally and spiritually healthy child is for me to be emotionally and spiritually healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was the ones that I had to heal from in order to be the mom that I wanted to be and to be able to raise a child who was going to be emotionally and spiritually healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that in a very short summary is kind of what the book is about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we start with your mom, and then we move into Caroline versus a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I want to start with us because I love your question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to be getting in the books specifically like why are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so it's because she's doing the best she can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that means so many things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're all doing the best we can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Given the situation that we've been given.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what we've been.
[SPEAKER_01]: life and we've all been given things, given a difficult toxic relationship with your mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have something, but moms like to be tough.
[SPEAKER_01]: We like to take whatever and else first.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the point even of like being a martyr, in case that is, you know, but hey, it is important, kind of like you said, and also hard to deal with the source of our pain, to deal with this stuff, the emotional, difficult stuff, instead of just pretending that
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to take you to an else.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard to do because I think number one, it requires first of all recognizing that there's something wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is a journey in and of itself because I think a lot of times it's not until we're adults that you look back and go, this was not a healthy dynamic in my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or this is something a lot of times it's something you don't even know until maybe you have kids of your own and you think oh this is something I don't want to continue like I don't want this trajectory to continue and so it takes like some self awareness and I think you have to decide.
[SPEAKER_00]: do I want to deal with it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want to process it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want to work through it with God and a therapist or whatever it's going to take for you to get emotionally healthy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to do that because it's painful?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think you're having to admit a lot of things and I think not only is it painful to dig that stuff up sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're also, if you've still got those people in your life, there's going to be a lot of pushback from your family and from loved ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be like, but this is the way we've always been.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they make you feel like, you know, your Tyler Swift.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's you and it may not be you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, I think it's you've got to identify.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to be able to set those boundaries.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think those are really hard to do because I've always heard it said, like the people in your life usually where you need to put up the biggest boundaries, or the ones that are going to push back the hardest against those boundaries.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a journey and I think it takes, I think you can truly only do it by the grace of God because I don't think our inner leaning is, I would like to dig up all this trauma in deal fit today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would like to pinpoint all the things I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then people about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm going to bring it up with a person who hurt me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's easier to just kind of bury stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think especially when you're in the years of, you know, where you are, when you're busy with all the elementary school projects and the staff and the kids and the running.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just, you don't have a lot of time to sit and reflect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, sometimes you're just an autopilot mode too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that can be hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've seen so many of my friends as we've become empty nesters and we launched our kids into the world where you have time kind of once again to do this self-assessment of like, where am I?
[SPEAKER_00]: How am I doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what's going on with me, emotionally, and spiritually?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I especially as my kids are getting older, realizing how many of their experiences are like triggering for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you see ourselves on our kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sure, I can be brought right back to middle school or elementary school, like in an instant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your story is from my kids or other kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And good or bad is just like having kids and having to parent through issues, just bring us a lot of stuff up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea how bad my mom heard when I was hurting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like I did, I crossed my mind that my mom was sad too.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, because you don't think about your mom's feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not feeling, she's my mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's, you know, having walked Carolina through the teenage years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when she was dealing with all this mean girl stuff, I was like, this is harder than it was when I dealt with my own stuff in high school because I think you feel so powerless and you're also watching the thing, the person you love most in the world go through something that you really can't do much about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: First, how did raising Caroline kind of change your relationship, bring up some of this stuff, change your relationship with your mom, how did it change up as a person?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think for me, it was, I think the, the genesis of light kind of realized and things about my mom, I had always known things weren't right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my parents were divorced, it wasn't the healthiest of households.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think when I got off to college, I started to realize, like, oh, this is the way, I think that's when you start to be more aware of like what other people's families look like and where they come from.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, these are, this is not normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is not normal stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as I got married, you kind of realized some more stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: There is something about, like, when I found out that I was having a daughter is I thought, wow, like, how do I want my relationship with my daughter to be different than what I had with my mom?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want there to be this weird competition.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to feel like, you know, she's responsible for my emotional well-being.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I want her to be free to be exactly who God created her to be and how do I do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's kind of comes off in layers.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, early on in Caroline's life, that's when it really became aware and I talk about it in the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I was like, I can't be the mom that I want to be and I'm not going to be able to be emotionally healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I keep my mom in my life, the way she currently is, it was just too toxic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was too chaotic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it almost became a thing of not just protecting myself, but I think it's different when all of a sudden you have a kid to protect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I was like, I don't want any of this to affect.
[SPEAKER_00]: my daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's that's kind of when all those protective instincts kick in and you got this has to be different.
[SPEAKER_00]: This can't go on like it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I feel like I've talked to so many people in the past, I mean, I guess, since I became a mom who feel like they're learning to parent because they didn't have good parenting modeled to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just want to do better than my parents did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to break some generational curses or at least try to, yeah, I want to do better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's really hard because you really are starting from scratch if it hasn't been modeled to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what would your encouragement be if somebody is listening
[SPEAKER_01]: Good relationship with my friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a bad childhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will not do that to make it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I mean, I think I think there's two things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think number one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you really need to pray Like God.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need your wisdom and I need your discernment to show me how to do this because I mean There is no as much as I wish I could offer you like a one size fits all like healthy parenting map So much of it is going to depend on your temperament and who your child is and the way you're raising them and
[SPEAKER_00]: and all of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like you really have to go to God and be like, I need your wisdom and discernment for how to parent this child.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you have multiple kids, I know this from my friends that do, that's going to look different for each kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, everybody's got all their different personalities and emotional leanings.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think the other thing is, don't be afraid to draw a line where you need to draw a line and be like, we're going to do something different here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to find like if you're in a church or a book club or at work or wherever if you can look around like what I really tried to do is find some women who I felt like had raised Healthy daughters that look like some model of something that I want to do create and don't be afraid to ask those women like
[SPEAKER_00]: help me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, I think there's a bunch of us older moms who would love to help younger moms and just be like, here are the things that we've learned and here is how to do it better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I looked for those women who I felt like had raised really good kids and wasn't afraid to ask them like, hey, how do you how do you how do you do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: any family in church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean church and neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, some of it might have been an I were in youth ministry in our neighborhood for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times it was the kids that we had and then you know the kids and so, you know, go to dinner with those parents and be like, hey, how you have a
[SPEAKER_00]: Delaware kid, how did you do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you start to hear the same things over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's it's prayer, it's disarmament, it's discipline.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, being their parent and not their friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are themes that stand out where you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are some pillars of how you raise a good kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about Caroline a little bit because it's a large chunk of what you talk about is her experience with me and girls and how that's shaped her and how you guys handled that and how that obviously brings up a lot of stuff like we said before brings up a lot of hurt so tell us a little bit about that part of Caroline's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was, you know, it really didn't start.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny because we made it through junior high.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like you always hear like, how junior high is the worst, like it's the worst.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not great, you know, I mean, it kind of is what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I felt like for us, it was when we got to high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had had some older moms that had said, hey, things really start to shift when they get driver's license because all of a sudden they're free to make different choices and you start to see different friends and write different decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we got to sophomore year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, you could kind of go back and go, what started it all?
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's just a lot of emotional immaturity.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's girls that are just trying to,
[SPEAKER_00]: find their own place in the world and they just don't have a lot of empathy and kindness necessarily.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it just kind of started this Caroline found herself like so many girls have where she all of a sudden was the one that everybody
[SPEAKER_00]: decided to go against, and they were talking about her.
[SPEAKER_00]: They would leave her awful text.
[SPEAKER_00]: They would say awful things to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: They would corner her in the bathroom at school.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was the, it was the craziest thing because like I am not one of these moms.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I would always be like, did you do something?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you've done something like what happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like because I'm like, I'm not gonna be like, my kids perfect, she didn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she was like, no, I'm trying to talk to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm asking like, can we talk?
[SPEAKER_00]: What happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you just realize it's some point and it's like what I told her is I was like this really doesn't even have anything to do with you so much as it has to do with something that's going on with those girls and so there comes a time where you have to stand up for yourself and you have to walk away and go these are not my friends and so it was a really really hard time and I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: part of the reason I started writing this book was because I talked about it on another podcast years ago and I had so many women that reached out and either I had gone through it, their daughters were currently going through it, they had a friend who's daughter was going through it and I was like, we have a main girl at the demo.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the thing that I don't know that everybody's talking about but I'm like, it's a problem and so what can we do in our homes because you can't control other kids but what can we do in our homes to do better?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think is like the cause of that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the problem is it a lot of hurting people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always tell my kids hurting people hurt people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the first thing I say when from home talking about like a bully.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like well, yeah, like how are they hurting?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's figure that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what it's from.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I think you have a lot of kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if you don't have a spiritual compass, if you're not finding your identity in Christ, I think a main mom is going to raise a main daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if your if our kids see us prioritizing all these things, which the world tells us to prioritize your academic prowess and what team you're on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you made a team or a team and all of that, I think we can start operating from this like scarcity mentality.
[SPEAKER_00]: of somebody else's success means less success for us, instead of an abundance mentality of like, hey, just because you didn't make the soccer team, that just means God has something else for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's be happy for our friends that made the soccer team.
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's go try out for basketball, or be in or whatever it is that is your thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's a real big key.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think our kids watch us to see what do we value?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we prioritize?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we showing them?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to lead the way because the bottom line is they are emotionally immature.
[SPEAKER_00]: Their frontal lobe has not developed.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're in a, I mean, it's a little bit of the Lord of the flies mentality a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's our job as parents to pour in and say, this is how you become a decent human being.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and kids are in there so much pressure to like it is like literally crawling their way to the top and yeah on anyone They need it because like you have to be at the top to get in touch.
[SPEAKER_01]: She used it to be at the top and high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the top middle school and if you're going to be in the top middle school then you better Huh, thank soccer
[SPEAKER_01]: seven days a week when you're in third grade.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, or it's passed you by.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sorry you didn't start gymnastics when you were two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your career is over before you're eight.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like it's just the way it goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to dial it down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where his parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to recognize like where the places where I'm trying to live by curiously through my kid or get some sense of accomplishment from my kid that we aren't really meant to get from our kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we've got to let them be who God created them to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And not what we want them to be if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've said that on the show before, but my friends Jim and Lyn Jackson Now I say your child is not your report card.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've viewed them as our report or we have a vision of what like they're gonna have a successful job And they're gonna get married and they're gonna have three kids and they're gonna give me all the grand babies and yeah, I live by me It's gonna be great, you know, yeah, isn't
[SPEAKER_01]: we can't write that story.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we can't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is, as if we forced that story, we're missing out on the story God has for them, which is ultimately going to be the best story of all, like that's, I mean, in our own lives, when you look and go, all the things that we thought we wanted versus what worked out the way it did.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, oh God was doing something better, and so why would we want to force our kids into some box of what we think everything wants to look like and miss whatever God has for them?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that's the great
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it's melancholy because we like to be in control.
[SPEAKER_00]: Percent.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I said this year, I've been discovering like I thought I wasn't a control freak, but it turns out I'm not as long as everything looks the way I want it to look.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, there was behaving the way you wanted it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let it go.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're not ours to control.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the more we try to control it, we miss out on the joy of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And kind of the faithfulness of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at all, to just go, this does not look the way I wanted it to look.
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's let's see what's
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your book, again, a lot of it's about relationships, whether they're good, or bad relationships, friendships, I think, in general, friendships are really hard in middle school, in high school beyond their always changing, they come and go and we're lucky.
[SPEAKER_01]: We get a few that stick around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a few lifelong friends that I am just so blessed by.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is one
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're committed friendships.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I, I mean, like, through the highs and the lows, everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, everyone just needs one friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You really do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need one friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell me a little bit about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think sometimes, especially in the stage of life, I'm in where and just the age I'm at, that everyone's on social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you see everyone on their girls' night.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, I didn't get invited to girls' night.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I didn't I didn't go on a girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and have any friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You, they're you feel like you're missing out on a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but we may have moved past mean girl phase for the most part.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're still the missing out phase.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, for sure, really just need one golly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what's so.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've always operated more that way anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I would rather have a handful of really close friends than, you know, a hundred surface friends, but Kelly and I met when we were in college.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we bonded over a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: We both had kind of a toxic parental relationship with a parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had kind of our scars and our baggage from that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think because we had been through that, we just always
[SPEAKER_00]: agreed we were going to treat each other with the ultimate kindness and and that's what we've done for over 30 years now so um and we were fortunate enough where we did in depth and we kind of did the dream we lived you know a mile and a half away from each other and she's got two boys that are
[SPEAKER_00]: were raised like Caroline's brothers and she's just been a loyal friend through it all and that's just a that's a rare thing to have and I feel so blessed to have it but we've always been honest with it with each other we've always said that we trust each other implicitly I know she's not going to say anything behind my back I'm not going to say anything behind her back so there's just a level of trust there that I think is so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you think that you have navigated that relationship through 30 years of life looking so different?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I feel like even some of my closest friends from a decade ago were now just in such different places that even though we love each other, we don't get to see each other because it's just the way it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think it's, you know, it's funny because I almost think it's a season.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the season you're in because I can think with other close friends, you know, because Gellie and I have lived close to each other and so we've stayed in each other's lives because it's been easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, we prioritize, like when the kids were little, we were like, we go to lunch every Tuesday, like, and pretty much without fail.
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't schedule hair appointments on Tuesdays, we cleared our calendars on Tuesdays like that because you know if you don't It's gonna fall off the right arm because it's that whole thing at fear just like oh I can't this Wednesday I can next next thing you know you're like well six months from now I have a Tuesday that's free so we were like okay every Tuesday we get a lunch and those two days were just our
[SPEAKER_00]: like we needed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was our free therapy session.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was hard time to catch up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was our time to talk about everything from serious issues to like what lipstick are you wearing right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just all that stuff, but I also think that, you know, with my girlfriends that are further away and that I don't get to see all the time, it's funny to me how is our kids have gotten older.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've all come back around to like now, like my high school, some friends from high school that I have not really been with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, 35 years at this point, but all of a sudden now that we're all empty nesters, everybody's like, when can we get together?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's all get together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes it's just a season where life is, you know, when you're doing all the sports and the, you know, the plays and the band practice and how mark and all of that, it's hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you have to prioritize friendship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you also have to know that sometimes for seasons, it's just not gonna be as easy to make stuff happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not ideal.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think just in general social media makes that so hard because you're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all lying.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is because you're still.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're making it work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's the picture you see the once a year that they make it work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that it's happening all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Juggle social media is apparent in human in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just always.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay, so for people who are listening, who are like, I am struggling relationally either with my parent or with my friends or my daughter's struggling.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is life is stressful right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would she say to them?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or kind of like, what would you say to yourself when you were struggling with so many different things?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you could talk to previous you, you, you, you.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think when it comes to relationships, I think you have to give a lot of grace.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I just think you have to know because here's the thing, like, other than my mom, when I looked at all my other relationships in my life, I thought even when those people hurt my feelings or I feel slided or we snap at each other or have a misunderstanding, I always trust and know that their intention is never to hurt me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like it's like they're safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so even if they did hurt me, that wasn't their intention to hurt me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you kind of have to look and go, who are your safe people that you know, not that they're going to do it perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to hurt your feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to be times or misunderstandings, but you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: that they would never intentionally do that and it's not to hurt you versus the people that you're like, this person is just toxic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this person is no good comes from this relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: I leave feeling worse than I felt before.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always feel uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you have those people where you're always second guessing and replaying, I mean, I think that's when you start to go is this relationship that I need in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's okay to decide some relationships or
[SPEAKER_00]: it's not healthy for me anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that we've talked about at Christian parenting, I think from Jeff and Tara Mats and there are some people who were on our podcast network.
[SPEAKER_01]: They talked about red light, yellow light and green light friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: So green light, green would be like a golly like you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come with.
[SPEAKER_01]: anything and like they're you're go to for sure and yellow's like you're a really good friend I like hanging out with you, but I'm probably not going to tell you my deepest arc of secret exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And red was like hmm, I probably don't need you in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think visual.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is and I think that there can be people and you can be like, you're not a bad person.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just a bad match like this just our dynamic is not great for each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just hard when you're like a people pleaser or you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, to just have like you're just like gathering all the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, wait, wait, you actually should be over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, now you are not great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just this is not a healthy dynamic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is hard for our kids, too, because they have to learn that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think helping our kids to identify who those people are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, okay, to have different categories of friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hard, because our kids just want to be friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, yeah, and I think that you kind of have to learn that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think they're still, I mean, Carolina and I'll still have conversations about like, you've got your friends that are your true, ride or die friends and you have other people that it's like, they may be fun to go out with and they may be fun to go to the movies with.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would not trust them because I don't know that at the end of the day, they have your best interest at heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what you have to differentiate is not everybody is safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's nothing wrong with the movie friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there's nothing wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those can be great friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just have to, they're just a yellow light.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: love this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I really truly loved your book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much goodness in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, I mean, it's a heavy topic, but it does also lighthearted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because we, because because we value funny, we prioritize funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did it well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we wrap up our time, I do love to ask my guests.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is one thing that you want every parent to know when they leave this
[SPEAKER_00]: mean, I would say is an older parent think, I think number, I'll say two things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think number one, don't be afraid to let your kid be exactly who God created them to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to look different than what you thought.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I talk about in the book there were times when Caroline, she is so much more my husband's personality.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like when she was navigating so much of that mean girl drama, like she just faced it head on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And where I was like, let's just be nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's try to take the hybrids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was fine for a while, but it was like at some point, she had to handle it in the way that was true to herself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's when you get to see the gifts that God has given your kids, those unique gifts really beyond display.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so don't be afraid of those, even if it feels uncomfortable or different than how you would handle it, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Watch what they do and these are the years when they're under your roof where you can kind of steward it a little bit where you're like I love the way you approach that so directly maybe next time let's do it a little bit more gently you know or whatever so I think that's one thing and the other thing is I just want to say like
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that there are times with kids where you feel like you're drowning and it's so much and you don't know how to handle stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you keep taking them to God and if you keep going to God, what I will tell you is it's all going to be alright.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all going to be okay and their days work feels like it's not going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But everything is for a season and it's like, don't discount the way God is going to use these hard difficult seasons that hurt you so bad to watch your kids struggle because what I have seen is all of that created in Caroline so much grit and so much resilience and so much empathy for other people that she wouldn't have had otherwise so don't don't try to protect your kid out of everything that God's wanting them to become.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just love that reminder that when you do all of those things, you're just taking away from God's story.
[SPEAKER_01]: That he is right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we want to protect them because that's everything in us says to protect them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes we can protect them out of the very best of what God is trying to do in their lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: So buckle up because it's not easy, but it is worth it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate your time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was really, really delightful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved the reminder that not all relationships are meant to last.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some are just for a season and that's really hard for me to accept as an adult and it's hard to accept for our kids sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that I needed to hear that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that you got some good nuggets out of that conversation as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have links to find Melanie in our show notes and to get her book here be dragon so definitely go check that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: in his small voice, Jesus is close to the broken hearted and is the great physician and a great healer.
[SPEAKER_01]: He will hold you close and heal your heart if you let him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening to the Christian parenting podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure to like and subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the best way to reach more people and encourage even more parents.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So to find out more about Christian parenting and to make a donation head over to Christianparenting.org or at Christian parenting underscore org on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again, see you next week!