[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to Feeding the Mouth of Biteshoe, a weekly podcast guide on parenting teens and launching them into the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Cynthia Gannon, and as always, I'm joined by psychologists and author Dr. Ken Wilgus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's a little fun fact for everybody is you and I have to take, we batch tape these shows.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do a couple of the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you happen to be listening to the last one, you're like, gosh, I hope she gets her mic fixed.
[SPEAKER_00]: My next time they tape, we're literally taping back to back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here we are with my same mic issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Say we are everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: But today on this show, we're going to talk about,
[SPEAKER_00]: Another frequent question you receive is about the way that our kids address.
[SPEAKER_00]: How they address.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was thinking about this when I was in high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: it was totally the preppy stage like we were we were like like the shirts with the like striped gap shirts kind of buttoned down.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean we had the girls were where we'd wear white kids tennis shoes and put ribbon in up like literally five ribbon and like we were we were cutest I mean that's a relative term but it wasn't there wasn't like it was not in style for things when I mean I guess I probably had like
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe a mini skirt that went right above my knee, but like it wasn't like just a Christian school or so now I wasn't public school everybody, but now we didn't I don't know I just don't remember that being a big issue or maybe that was just man that says a lot about my dorkiness, but I just don't remember it being a big issue on how I dress now I do remember like maybe a round.
[SPEAKER_00]: end of college or early law school, the really short shorts like Jean shorts came in, but then I was kind of, you know, as out of my parents, um, did right at that point, but um, so I was just trying to think back as we're talking about just kind of trying to.
[SPEAKER_00]: as much as we can.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to regulate what our kids are wearing and the only thing I could think of growing up is my mom wouldn't let me wear shorts to church on Sunday nights.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the thing and boy was I read about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where the things that you remember growing up like regulating what you were dressing like your parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, that's a great point.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, because I'm a guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'll notice virtually, I think all the questions we get about what kids can wear
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are some issues that come up with guys and what they wear, but not like with girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so no, I had Puka shells and Polyester, there wasn't a natural fiber on my body at certain point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what shell?
[SPEAKER_01]: What just happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: Puka shells.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the poochish up that actually has come back around so you've got to look it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a why you think, but And lots of polyester products a lot of okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And anybody nobody's going to say that the polyester products.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nick Nick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there was so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as we know now and you are a race to girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have two sons now and I will say in the fence of the girls, I will say that my son's private school and I will mention my son too.
[SPEAKER_00]: They all want their shorts hemed shorter in the private school.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so I had an administrator recently tell me the last couple of years at the first time they've had to have the uniform talk with the boys who are bigger offenders than the girls with their shorts skirts and so free and there is some of that out there, everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: But by and large, it's girls.
[SPEAKER_00]: And and we have parents that write in about everything from the really short skirts to the athlete's or where all the, you know, forever the blue lemon shorts or tiny and two piece swimming suits.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, all the things and so all the things and so.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about our 15 to 18, 19-year-olds.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we pay it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, 13 to 18, nine-year-olds, so the important thing is to be clear, and I can't say this enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And last week it was the same thing because I'm finishing up a workbook on this, and I'm all about it again, and parents must not get lost in the weeds.
[SPEAKER_01]: that feeding them out that bites you is a public relations campaign where you try to get across to your teenager, we see you as a young adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not an old child and we are moving and orderly retreat out of your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: and you cannot do enough of reminding your kids of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in this case, when we talk about dress, the most of the questions we get is girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's multiple ear piercing, but a lot of times it is showing their body in some way, and there's a disagreement
[SPEAKER_01]: about what you would consider appropriate and all this stuff and my parents usually my it's a girl that my dad is so just he didn't get it all that stuff so the point is to maintain it whatever your choices maintain the campaign that says look we're going to try to leave you completely alone about this and as a matter of fact we are on
[SPEAKER_01]: So, for example, whatever struggle a parent may be listening and thinking about now, I would recommend that the thing you're struggling about now, whether it's a tube top or short shorts or whatever, I would argue that you really want to consider that you will not be restricting this anymore at least by the spring of that girl's senior year and maybe the whole senior year.
[SPEAKER_01]: because again, the point is not to try to use your control struggle, your control, your strength to make her dress right and make a little speech each time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just reflex parenting.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are training your young adult to make their own decisions and you want to be in helping to inform that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have a 14 year old that just hates you because you won't let me get a
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you want to start right out with I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know and listen by your senior year You can make that choice yourself, but not now.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a huge deal for them to hear if you're going to be able to have any communication about it Do you just have experience it totally makes sense, but let's talk those early years 13, 14, 15 So putting restrictions on it not a problem like you must
[SPEAKER_00]: What if you and your spouse disagree?
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because my husband and I disagree on some things for our daughter and it was the flip of what you would think it would be.
[SPEAKER_00]: My husband would be like, ah, she looks cute in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who cares?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: My gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, she's funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's usually the other way around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What if you and your spouse don't agree on what's appropriate for them?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a different thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had an episode or two about that we just did three episodes on marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you know, I'm a big, big believer in, you're not two parents that happen to be working the same shift at this house.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are married people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so married people, as we've said before, husbands, when you disagree with your wife, you need to do the work of making sure your wife knows that you care about what her thoughts and her concerns are.
[SPEAKER_01]: If she is fearful of a thing, then you need to make sure that you listen enough and communicate where she gets it, that you know what her thoughts are about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: for wives listening, your husband is helped a great deal if he's reassured that even if you disagree, you can respect what he's trying to get across and that you appreciate what his judgment is on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are two different approaches and we talked last time or two through sessions ago about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ow, you're kind of feeding each other, a husband feeds a wife, that kind of intimacy and connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not talking about men and women, I'm talking about husbands and wives, so you must find the way to come together on that in private so that you're in agreement,
[SPEAKER_01]: In public happens all the time that a mother and daughter close, they come home with what they both thought was cute And the dad is like, okay, I don't think so and I think I told you I used to involve my son.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the oldest and for I trusted his Ability to come down and I'd be like what do you think and he'd be like?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so and it was communicating not
[SPEAKER_01]: that your nasty, not that your body is wrong, not that all boys are animals, but it is introducing what is increasingly not known out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Men's thoughts are not in general toward women, the same way women's thoughts are toward themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it frightens me how little that's understood.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually getting less in the name of equal outcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our young people are being taught that, well, you know, girls have the same sexual drive that men do.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they do not look at the sexual criminal history in this kind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's just absurd.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, it's not about trying to be all finger pointing and this is nastier, but it is saying that this is not going to come across to you the way that you think.
[SPEAKER_01]: it to other young men like it will to to the way you see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where you really want to have a rule that hey, let's not do that again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't don't go out shopping and come home with cute stuff that I'm going to have to, you know, object to because that makes us look bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Dr. Ken, I'm just going to read you specifically something.
[SPEAKER_00]: We received an email received and I just wanted to know how you would respond to this particular scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have 14 age daughters.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all hanging up against my husband and I regarding what we've deemed as acceptable in how they dress.
[SPEAKER_00]: They want to wear the athletic shorts that are 2.5 in scene, like the other girls in our church.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also want to wear big hoodies over their shorts, so it looks like they don't have shorts on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of paraphrasing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Swim suits.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've always had a strict one-piece policy, and then their friends start
[SPEAKER_00]: To the point where if they can't wear what they want, they just won't go swimming.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's frustrating for many of our family pool parties.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we do help us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll come to our kids saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just pull them down, pull them down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, Dr. Kinn, as we're doing this, I'm thinking about conversations with my daughter, even last time she's gone from college.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to play the shorts down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Play the shorts down.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're sweatshirts too long.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I told for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the thought of spending our money on something we totally feel is inappropriate sounds horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then again, I recognized that I'm in it for the long game too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: What would you say to them?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to spend my money on stuff that you're going to wear that I don't think looks appropriate and we got what do we do I think okay I'm encouraged by the last part because they do you know again I really want to be kind about this but it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: very frustrating to hear parents that claim to have read feeding them out that bites you, and they are continuing to get completely locked in to control battles with teenagers exactly like they were children.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact is that your first step in this example is you have 14 age daughters, which is a prayer request right there for coronavirus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but yeah,
[SPEAKER_01]: What ages are they?
[SPEAKER_01]: And is the older one receiving freedoms, not privilege, freedoms that the younger ones do not have?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they see that there's ordered backing out, including, I don't like that she's wearing that either, but at blank age, we've already told her, you can make that choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: That must be in place.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the,
[SPEAKER_01]: key is continually like I keep saying a public relations campaign.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you're an adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: This won't be ours forever, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Things like it's always been our policy to have one piece makes no difference to an adult that is will is not my policy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not even your body.
[SPEAKER_01]: So why are you bothering with this?
[SPEAKER_01]: So continual arguments about God's will for our modesty and so forth
[SPEAKER_01]: So you do better to, again, like we've said, establish some kind of system where, at least by middle adolescence, you can say you now can, remember that shirt that you wear that we think is kind of just embarrassing, since it covers you, you can wear what you think you should wear.
[SPEAKER_01]: except for certain modesty issues to short to we will cover that and still restrict that until you are a senior in high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Putting something like that in place that all four girls here changes the whole thing and it can take out what we don't know these girls but there's a chunk of it where the teenage girls are not arguing about clothes.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're arguing about why are you still controlling my body.
[SPEAKER_01]: and so you want to set that in place and having said that then yes even if the senior year you can say oh yeah that's a cute two-piece I'm not buying you two-piece you can buy that but I just don't like you wearing that but you're too old you can do it you can do both it's adult
[SPEAKER_01]: treatment, respect of their adulthood, while still saying, at this point, we don't allow that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would be careful.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a big difference between a belly showing shirt or something like that, and a hoodie that, you know, is...
[SPEAKER_01]: too long.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I get what they're saying, but I think that's advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you ever notice how many girls close, kind of have the look like, whoa, she's almost naked.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I wonder what's under that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of part of style all the time that I think just ask any high school boy, you know, you ever picture her without our closer?
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yeah, all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so it's not her fault, but again, trying to get across this is a way you can serve young men, but you may eventually not agree with us, and it'll be up to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are the important things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't get completely locked down in.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we get them to see that they shouldn't dress like that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: you first get them to see that we respect how you see this because you will soon be in charge of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the meantime, then yeah, you also try to articulate.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably good for parents to try to articulate other than, ooh, I don't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your limit on this and why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you set those kind of limits even in your among yourself?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then let's talk last thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about piercings.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we should do a separate show later on tattoos.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a whole another.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we should.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we should revisit that revisit that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but let's talk piercings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and as a girl who I really was big on a lot of ear piercings in high school really you and I was allowed to have a only two doctor can only two so the third I just, you know, we did rogue at the sleepovers.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just got needles with ice and we just put the rest of them in ourselves and I know I am shocked.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I had an earring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, did you that could have been a good look for you, wasn't?
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to be cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have photographic evidence that will not prove it, but it was different.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to a member go to the mall.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, left to your right here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the 80s and I said, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing this because my wife thinks it's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes, ah, left to your.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was back when you're sexuality was still being signaled by that, so you were married.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So another level doctor can't okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's something we all burned.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so piercings number one it is in most states actually still illegal you can't get piercings under as a minor and the without your parents permission now you can just do it like you did the the rogue
[SPEAKER_01]: bandit that you were.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can't make sure that doesn't happen, but you can also, again, your point is look, we're trying to leave you alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We get it, but you're 14 and you want three more piercings in your ear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's hideous, but in not too long it'll be up to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to say no at this point and then try to set a point when you might and with piercing you might think about Again, you're trying to give as much freedom as possible so A lot of people don't realize that in ear piercing will grow over like you can't see mine anymore But what about that like heart-litch and and then belly buttons and noses and I mean, I guess that's the next level
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're, if your daughter wants a third ear piercing, okay, whatever, what if your daughter wants a nose piercing or the cartilage or the huge earing that goes in the ear, what about some of those things?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, spacer, right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the thing with that is to again, to be subtle about the question is, how do I approach piercings with planned emancipation as the PR campaign?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you start with, you know, we would consider another piercing in your ear, but that knows thing is not going to grow over as easily and you may have to wait until you're in high school, like a senior before we kind of give that to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: The question is not, for example, saying, okay, well, if it's cute,
[SPEAKER_01]: Then that's not the issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: The issue is why are you still telling me what to do with my body and when will you stop?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you need to answer that up front.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in that case, I think it is definitely worth your while to think about what really is important, and if you can give them freedom to make that choice without permanent, it's not damaging.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to be as effective in showing, we're trying to leave you alone here.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, you've already got four earrings and you want more and I'm sure it's great, but you're going to have to wait until you are older.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now this has come up by the way, what do you do when she comes home?
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's already a piercing there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a bit tricky.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you start by laughing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at Mr. Ms. eyebrow peers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can't have that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've already told you that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to need to take that, not taking it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, smile, not taking it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you do not get into a, yes you will.
[SPEAKER_01]: You, you cannot make them do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to sit down and be careful with, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, we get it that you really like this and I think you're kind of wanting to get us going here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'll tell you what we'll let you know by tonight what we're going to do if you don't take it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And take your time, but load up appropriate consequences that you're willing to hold on to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the important part, including being ready to lose that battle.
[SPEAKER_01]: like, what is it that we would live with at six months from now?
[SPEAKER_01]: She still got that thing in her eyebrow, but she doesn't have this and this and this and we, because again, it's not a control battle.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is if that's so important to you, then these are the things that we will not
[SPEAKER_01]: Provide for you because we really don't think it's good for you, but that's the key is you don't get it You're not in a battle of I'm going to rip that thing out you will not you'll have a social worker on your doorstep and Number two you really don't want to be stunned by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is about who owns my eyebrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's and it's you, but Until if you
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wait until you're seeing your year after a high school like we told you, then go nuts.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you choose not to, then like I say, I think you got to get together with your spouse and talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what are we going to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm going to restrict to this and that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, everything in me thinks through this and certain piercings or or certain things I would want to say not while you're on our payroll I mean I don't care if you're seeing here I don't care if you're in college or you're whatever if you're on our payroll.
[SPEAKER_00]: than these things are not, we don't, you're not going to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you make that choice, you're not on my payroll.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had parents say that and that they won't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You won't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You won't have a kid who's 30 with an eyebrow piercing going, yeah, and everyone to college, because I got an eyebrow piercing, and they stopped paying anything, you won't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting if you won't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the parent will not follow and it's a control battle.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a kind of it's a way of saying if you do this if you take ownership of your eyebrow
[SPEAKER_01]: big deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: But really, it's more like if you are gonna, and this is mostly why kids do this, the kid I'm thinking about that did this, it was just to kind of shove it in their parents' face.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't make me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You really want to be calm about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the weirdest piercing should be funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, wow, look at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to
[SPEAKER_01]: Portland area.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, don't let that become a control thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're taking half the fun out of it right there And then, but you do make a decision about we've told you you cannot do this yet And if you continue to do this then we'll let you know what's going to stack up and be prepared to hold to that and lose that
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're not going to have a 19-year-old ready to be going to college and you're like, nope, I'm glad you got this scholarship, but we're not going to pay for your dorm room because you're wearing that, you're not going to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the meantime, you can then really communicate about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is this really about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Try to really get at what do you do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Some things never change a parenting, Dr. Ken, as you're saying, I'm thinking about what my husband grounded our youngest one from TV a couple of weekends ago for the whole weekend, but
[SPEAKER_00]: My husband happened to be leaving town for the weekend and I'm like
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, wait, don't cry on him from the TV for the weekend and you're leaving, are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm like, okay, where's the iPad?
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't cry on you from that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you ground them from or take away or punish, because that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a good word.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's so many different nuances that it's so tricky.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's falling planned emancipation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're not going to be able to control this to rest their lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to have our 30 year olds.
[SPEAKER_00]: telling them you can't wear those shorts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And keep telling and keep telling that you telling them that you know that we are not going to keep doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a public relations campaign.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get out there and keep announcing we're leaving.
[SPEAKER_01]: In time.
[SPEAKER_00]: God it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Dr. Can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Cynthia.