WEBVTT 00:00.638 --> 00:01.666 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Jamie Cochran. 00:01.767 --> 00:02.735 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Lake Babin. 00:02.755 --> 00:03.461 [SPEAKER_02]: Weed wind. 00:03.643 --> 00:05.417 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm extreme watershed podcast. 00:06.443 --> 00:14.831 [SPEAKER_02]: Back with the other episode of the lead win podcast that we have with us once again, J.P. Dennell, Chief Chaining Officer at Ashland Front and one of our senior leadership instructors. 00:15.011 --> 00:20.417 [SPEAKER_02]: So the topic today is to stop being surprised by behavior that you should have planned for. 00:20.477 --> 00:26.583 [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to start by sharing a little story because a couple weeks ago, my teenage boys were preparing for a really big wrestling tournament. 00:26.603 --> 00:28.765 [SPEAKER_02]: And they had two days that they were going to be at this tournament. 00:29.205 --> 00:31.928 [SPEAKER_02]: So what did I do as they're loving mom who cares about them? 00:31.968 --> 00:33.970 [SPEAKER_02]: I got up really early. 00:33.950 --> 00:50.827 [SPEAKER_02]: five, fifteen in the morning to pack this cooler full of all the things they would need, all the hydration, the water, of course a couple of Jaco goes, all the fuel, all the food that they would need, and I packed that up and set it out there for them, made sure they got off on the right foot for this big tournament. 00:51.628 --> 01:01.138 [SPEAKER_02]: And two hours later, as I'm getting ready to leave and head towards this tournament and meet them, my son sends me a text and says, Mom, I left the 01:01.709 --> 01:02.931 [SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome. 01:02.951 --> 01:08.078 [SPEAKER_02]: And my instinct was to be just furious because I'm thinking, this isn't a salt on me. 01:08.178 --> 01:11.483 [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't even care about what I do to help him. 01:11.764 --> 01:13.326 [SPEAKER_01]: But I was gonna appreciate it. 01:13.346 --> 01:14.047 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't respect. 01:14.167 --> 01:15.789 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was my instinct. 01:15.829 --> 01:17.973 [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted, I'm thinking I went to the store last night. 01:17.993 --> 01:19.134 [SPEAKER_02]: I got up and did all these things. 01:19.915 --> 01:22.119 [SPEAKER_02]: And my instinct was to have that reaction. 01:22.639 --> 01:27.987 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I paused for a moment and I thought, okay, Jamie, what do you expect from teenage boys? 01:27.967 --> 01:34.177 [SPEAKER_02]: who are driving at five-thirty in the morning to go get on a bus, who are tired, and sort of mentally preparing for this tournament. 01:34.638 --> 01:36.601 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, am I surprised you left the cooler and truck? 01:36.741 --> 01:37.483 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm not. 01:37.823 --> 01:43.933 [SPEAKER_02]: I should have expected that that could be an outcome in this situation. 01:43.913 --> 01:51.321 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I decided in that moment, I need to stop expecting something different from a teenage boy and just recognize a teenage boy's due dumb stuff sometimes. 01:51.822 --> 01:57.428 [SPEAKER_02]: And instead, my choice was to react to that situation or to simply say, yeah, you know what? 01:57.828 --> 02:00.111 [SPEAKER_02]: He kind of did exactly what I should have expected. 02:00.131 --> 02:03.975 [SPEAKER_02]: And my reaction in that moment was, hey, don't worry about it. 02:04.315 --> 02:05.657 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll pack a cooler here at the house. 02:05.777 --> 02:10.562 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be there in a couple hours and I'll make sure that you got some stuff for the rest of the weekend. 02:10.542 --> 02:17.816 [SPEAKER_02]: And by doing that, I was able to prevent him from going into this very difficult tournament with a really negative and bad attitude. 02:18.177 --> 02:22.365 [SPEAKER_02]: And all of that took me just looking at the situation and saying, hey, what do you expect? 02:22.966 --> 02:26.392 [SPEAKER_02]: And the same thing goes when I asked my 12-year-old daughter to go clean a room. 02:26.993 --> 02:30.841 [SPEAKER_02]: If I have the expectation, she is going to be like, yes, mom. 02:30.861 --> 02:32.063 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to do that. 02:32.083 --> 02:32.584 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this would be great. 02:32.564 --> 02:35.489 [SPEAKER_02]: This would be amazing, and I'm always gonna feel it down. 02:35.509 --> 02:37.452 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm always gonna be let down. 02:37.612 --> 02:45.004 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, if I have the expectation instead that my 12 year old is likely gonna react with a little bit of annoyance, I can react to them appropriately. 02:45.304 --> 02:51.614 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know it's kind of a bummer, hey, turn on some music, give yourself 20 minutes, all come up and help in a few minutes and we can do this together. 02:51.734 --> 02:59.787 [SPEAKER_02]: I can change the outcome of that situation by managing my expectations, my expectations of other people. 03:00.138 --> 03:21.331 [SPEAKER_01]: as a former teenage boy, I certainly can recognize that people do dumb things, and I look, that's such a great point, Jamie, because we have these like perfect expectations that we put on other people, and then we excuse mistakes and failures, our lapses and judgments that we make. 03:21.351 --> 03:28.322 [SPEAKER_01]: If, hey, I was running late to the meeting, you know, I'd look at whatever it's not that big of a deal, 03:28.302 --> 03:29.543 [SPEAKER_01]: but you were late to the meeting. 03:29.583 --> 03:31.686 [SPEAKER_01]: I was here and you were wasting my time, right? 03:32.126 --> 03:38.112 [SPEAKER_01]: This is we put expectations on other people, whether it's our kids, whether it's our co-workers, whether it's our boss. 03:38.793 --> 03:45.500 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so many times, we've talked to people about just seeing the perspective of others. 03:45.520 --> 03:55.170 [SPEAKER_01]: So the leaders that we work with, seeing the perspective of others, people that are frustrated with their boss and decisions are making or they don't have the information and particularly through a chaotic or difficult time and you can say, hey, can 03:55.150 --> 03:56.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Consider what they're going through right now. 03:57.173 --> 03:59.738 [SPEAKER_01]: You think that's a tough situation like do you think they how will the answers? 03:59.978 --> 04:09.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think they know how this is going to go like try to put yourself in their shoes be a little empathetic But this idea that like you're surprised by obvious things. 04:09.755 --> 04:12.079 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really just a failure to contingency plan 04:12.059 --> 04:18.010 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a whole chapter that we wrote about in extreme ownership about planning for the contingency. 04:18.030 --> 04:19.874 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't plan for every single contingency. 04:20.034 --> 04:20.976 [SPEAKER_01]: None of us have a crystal ball. 04:21.296 --> 04:25.705 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know the outcome or how things may go exactly. 04:26.426 --> 04:29.612 [SPEAKER_01]: But we certainly can prepare for the likely things. 04:29.592 --> 04:33.678 [SPEAKER_01]: One example that I see of this regularly is everybody knows that we live in politically charged times. 04:33.718 --> 04:35.741 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and you're on social media, you see this all the time. 04:35.761 --> 04:41.148 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, people are any other's throws and they feel so strongly about, you know, one side of the other. 04:41.188 --> 04:50.942 [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I'll talk to people and they will be, I rate about someone who has come on the complete opposite side of the political aisle from them. 04:50.922 --> 05:09.133 [SPEAKER_01]: something that that person said and they're just I read about can you believe they said that then and and from a detached perspective answers yes I actually can I actually would expect them to say exactly that and you can disagree with them and you can talk about maybe how their position might be flawed. 05:09.113 --> 05:16.907 [SPEAKER_01]: But why would you allow yourself to get upset by something that someone is saying that you could absolutely expect them to say? 05:17.008 --> 05:19.632 [SPEAKER_01]: And know that they would say, so why would I get upset about that? 05:19.693 --> 05:25.824 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is, it's just, you have to choose to allow yourself to get upset by that. 05:25.844 --> 05:28.629 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to choose to allow yourself to get frustrated. 05:28.649 --> 05:30.733 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, in the times that we live in, right? 05:30.713 --> 05:51.068 [SPEAKER_01]: you you you click on something that spins you up and and what is what is social media won't they want they want you to they want you to see more of that the algorithm is feeding you more of that so that you're emotional about it and and you just stay emotional all the time and it's you gotta you get a break that cycle get a break that trap and I think if you if you recognize 05:51.048 --> 05:54.091 [SPEAKER_01]: how are people likely to react in a certain scenario? 05:54.511 --> 05:55.772 [SPEAKER_01]: What would you expect them to do? 05:55.912 --> 06:02.238 [SPEAKER_01]: But your emotions a check and just take a step back and detach for one second, you'll see like, oh, they're doing exactly what I would expect them to do. 06:02.258 --> 06:06.942 [SPEAKER_01]: Just as you saw with your teenage boys, and then you don't get spun up about it. 06:06.962 --> 06:08.424 [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, okay, that's just the way it is. 06:08.644 --> 06:16.011 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so frustration often comes from a leader's unrealistic expectations of someone, not typically poor performance. 06:16.211 --> 06:20.835 [SPEAKER_02]: It's our expectations that we're setting and not clearly communicating 06:21.001 --> 06:24.484 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's easy for us to get sucked into those emotions that we feel. 06:24.684 --> 06:27.347 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we talk about detachment as a superpower. 06:27.407 --> 06:36.935 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as leaders, if we can go into these situations or conversations, detach from our emotions, it helps us set the tone. 06:37.656 --> 06:51.008 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, when you go into it and you're asking or in his questions to understand their perspective or their situation, it allows you to have insight to their world and what's going on and their views. 06:50.988 --> 07:01.628 [SPEAKER_00]: They're struggles that he might not have been aware of, which could also change your perspective of, oh, instead of me being frustrated, now I actually have some empathy for what they have going on. 07:01.668 --> 07:05.315 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, it gives you the ability to help lead them by asking them questions. 07:05.435 --> 07:07.859 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's one of the things we talk about in decentralized command. 07:08.380 --> 07:11.967 [SPEAKER_00]: If somebody comes over to the plan that I don't really like, okay, why? 07:11.947 --> 07:13.190 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do I not like to plant? 07:13.310 --> 07:15.175 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't understand their perspective. 07:15.235 --> 07:18.664 [SPEAKER_00]: Their ideas, their the reason is behind those things. 07:19.486 --> 07:24.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other just thing to have in the back of your mind is, what was their intent? 07:25.058 --> 07:26.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that story with your son. 07:26.299 --> 07:28.982 [SPEAKER_00]: Your son's intent was not to forget his cooler. 07:29.002 --> 07:31.645 [SPEAKER_00]: He did not want to frustrate you. 07:31.705 --> 07:37.091 [SPEAKER_00]: He did not want to disrespect you by not bringing the cooler that you took all this time. 07:37.111 --> 07:47.623 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if we can go into it with a detached mindset of, you know, we're not getting emotional and we're not frustrated, it's, hey, how can I help them? 07:47.603 --> 07:48.424 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's the intent. 07:48.564 --> 07:53.811 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to help you, you want to help your sons, you want to help your spouse, you want to help your boss, you want to help your peers, you want to help your team. 07:54.352 --> 07:56.595 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we as leaders want to help the people around us. 07:56.875 --> 08:02.983 [SPEAKER_00]: That means that we have to understand their perspective, give them a little bit of grace and ask ourselves, like, hey, what was their intent? 08:03.584 --> 08:08.511 [SPEAKER_00]: And 99% of the time the people we work with, their intent was never man. 08:09.152 --> 08:10.894 [SPEAKER_00]: I really hope I screwed this up. 08:11.482 --> 08:13.505 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and you're describing giving a little grace. 08:13.605 --> 08:14.266 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 08:14.286 --> 08:15.588 [SPEAKER_02]: I threw a bone to my son. 08:15.688 --> 08:16.710 [SPEAKER_02]: I saved him in that moment. 08:16.730 --> 08:18.833 [SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't mean that I just let it go. 08:18.873 --> 08:19.454 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no. 08:19.474 --> 08:21.357 [SPEAKER_02]: He had a tournament the following weekend. 08:21.437 --> 08:22.499 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what the solution was? 08:22.519 --> 08:24.242 [SPEAKER_02]: I had him pack his own cooler. 08:25.103 --> 08:25.183 [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm. 08:25.203 --> 08:29.850 [SPEAKER_02]: And by having him pack his own cooler, I think he had a little more ownership over the plan. 08:29.970 --> 08:30.992 [SPEAKER_02]: And after... 08:30.972 --> 08:46.011 [SPEAKER_02]: missing it or forgetting it the week before he was much more inclined to remember that cooler that he packed so it wasn't that I'm going to save him and now just manage those expectations from here on out I'm going to make sure I set better expectations. 08:45.991 --> 08:49.057 [SPEAKER_02]: So the next week, I set the plan out for him. 08:49.097 --> 08:50.158 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, here's the cooler. 08:50.339 --> 08:51.421 [SPEAKER_02]: I got some stuff for you in the fridge. 08:51.661 --> 08:55.107 [SPEAKER_02]: Before you go in the morning, pack it up, and make sure you got what you need for the tournament. 08:55.448 --> 09:01.819 [SPEAKER_02]: And giving him a little more ownership of that plan, solve the problem, and also solved the expectation that I was having for him. 09:01.859 --> 09:04.945 [SPEAKER_02]: And he took a lot more ownership of that, and made sure he brought that cooler. 09:05.212 --> 09:22.157 [SPEAKER_01]: any of us with kids right get frustrated they forgot something and this I got younger kids at home you know my kids are few years younger than yours and my youngest is in kindergarten I've got a fourth and fifth grader and and they they forget stuff all the time and you get so frustrated with them you know for that and yet 09:22.981 --> 09:24.804 [SPEAKER_01]: do I forget stuff? 09:24.824 --> 09:26.707 [SPEAKER_01]: I forget stuff all of us forget stuff all the time. 09:26.788 --> 09:32.718 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, again, we apply this standard to other people that we can't even meet ourselves. 09:33.619 --> 09:35.763 [SPEAKER_01]: But how do you prevent from forgetting stuff? 09:36.544 --> 09:38.588 [SPEAKER_01]: You run through a checklist of the stuff that you need. 09:38.668 --> 09:40.151 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's one that I've tried to teach them. 09:40.171 --> 09:46.862 [SPEAKER_01]: If they do forget stuff, I'm mind immediately, but I'm so frustrated that we forgot that, but like, you know what? 09:47.332 --> 09:49.776 [SPEAKER_01]: This is actually my fault because I got these are younger kids. 09:49.816 --> 09:50.657 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm responsible for them. 09:51.138 --> 09:53.121 [SPEAKER_01]: They, I should have known. 09:53.181 --> 09:54.903 [SPEAKER_01]: I should have had the expectation they're gonna forget stuff. 09:55.484 --> 09:58.809 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I should have done is run through that checklist with them. 09:58.829 --> 10:01.453 [SPEAKER_01]: Just a verbal checklist of, okay, do you have your backpack? 10:01.473 --> 10:02.254 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have your water bottle? 10:02.274 --> 10:03.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have your school binder? 10:03.877 --> 10:05.399 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have your PE gear? 10:05.419 --> 10:06.661 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have your extra shoes? 10:07.262 --> 10:08.424 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have your lacrosse equipment? 10:08.444 --> 10:11.348 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is, that they needed for the day. 10:11.497 --> 10:12.258 [SPEAKER_01]: to think through that. 10:12.338 --> 10:14.320 [SPEAKER_01]: And we learned that in the sealed hands. 10:14.340 --> 10:29.297 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my Platonchev Tonya Friday was an amazing Platonchev had years of experience and multiple deployments and every single time he launched operation, he would go through that verbal checklist. 10:29.357 --> 10:39.208 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I mean, starting from head to toe, start with your your night vision and your helmet and, you know, your eye pro, just working all the way down, your your body till like your, your you know, weapons, radios, gear to your boots. 10:39.809 --> 10:40.710 [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, 10:40.690 --> 11:02.108 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the times that I was in a hurry and didn't do that I forgot critical stuff there were times I launched on operations where I didn't even have my like my like a GPS unit on me Really important as the Patoon commander the ground force manner operation to know exactly where you are and be able to have those GPS coordinates 11:02.088 --> 11:21.160 [SPEAKER_01]: Now luckily I had other people around me that had those things and luckily we were operating areas where we were primarily operating off a map, you know, with with streets and building numbers and so I could do without it, but it was horrible to not have that in the event that I needed it and and yet there were more than once I forgot that. 11:21.140 --> 11:22.083 [SPEAKER_01]: on an operation. 11:22.504 --> 11:25.953 [SPEAKER_01]: And the only way I could prevent from doing it is to run through that checklist. 11:25.973 --> 11:28.781 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's just, it's, it's theory versus reality. 11:28.801 --> 11:28.941 [SPEAKER_01]: Right? 11:28.961 --> 11:34.376 [SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about a previous episodes that, in theory, you should remember everything and not forget stuff. 11:34.396 --> 11:37.444 [SPEAKER_01]: Then reality, you're going to forget stuff and the only way to prevent that. 11:37.424 --> 11:40.107 [SPEAKER_01]: is to, is to run through that mental checklist. 11:40.127 --> 11:53.843 [SPEAKER_01]: So teaching your kids to do that, thinking about the things that your team might do, their human beings, and just like you, they're gonna forget stuff, just like you, they're gonna have sleepless nights, or maybe they didn't get a good night's rest, and they're gonna be thinking about other stuff, or they're stressed at home. 11:54.383 --> 11:58.748 [SPEAKER_01]: People are gonna react in certain ways, you gotta give them some grace, you gotta be prepared for that. 11:59.489 --> 12:02.132 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I go in with the expectation, 12:02.112 --> 12:13.979 [SPEAKER_01]: you know that that you're going to let's say we have a conversation about you know you see something differently than I do and I want to make sure things are done in a certain way and you want to do them a different way. 12:14.340 --> 12:20.374 [SPEAKER_01]: I got to have the expectation that you might actually bristle that you might actually get defensive that you might actually not do 12:20.354 --> 12:25.159 [SPEAKER_01]: get on board and say, oh, if that makes perfect sense, the way you just explained it, I'm fully on board with the way you want to do it. 12:25.560 --> 12:27.182 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just not the way human beings are. 12:27.482 --> 12:38.835 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if I set these false expectations, I'm never going to be able to overcome those obstacles, be prepared for some of the the the contingencies that might come my way and it's I'm going to be a lot less successful. 12:39.716 --> 12:46.463 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have found that we are as humans far more for giving of ourselves than we are of other people. 12:46.882 --> 12:54.637 [SPEAKER_02]: And especially our younger selves, I think of myself as a mom and some of the challenges that I face now with teenagers who are going through all sorts of difficulties. 12:55.379 --> 13:04.857 [SPEAKER_02]: My instinct sometimes is to feel that disappointment when my kids do something that doesn't align with our family values or doesn't align with what I would expect of them. 13:04.837 --> 13:09.104 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I have these conversations with my husband, I have to remind him, hey, what were you doing at 16? 13:09.585 --> 13:10.646 [SPEAKER_02]: What were you doing at 17? 13:10.686 --> 13:14.112 [SPEAKER_02]: Because if we're comparing apples to apples, I was doing it all perfectly. 13:14.292 --> 13:15.735 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, our kids are doing for me. 13:15.755 --> 13:17.397 [SPEAKER_01]: I did everything my parents told me to do. 13:17.497 --> 13:17.818 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 13:17.918 --> 13:18.940 [SPEAKER_01]: I never broke the rules. 13:19.080 --> 13:21.604 [SPEAKER_02]: I never did any of those things and the reality is that's just not true. 13:21.724 --> 13:24.268 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're far more forgiving for ourselves than we are of other people. 13:24.308 --> 13:26.432 [SPEAKER_02]: And the same thing happens in our businesses. 13:26.812 --> 13:30.979 [SPEAKER_02]: When you have new leaders that are making mistakes, we can get frustrated with them. 13:30.959 --> 13:35.905 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, when I think back about my early time at echelon front, I made a million mistakes. 13:35.925 --> 13:40.630 [SPEAKER_02]: I made a million decisions where I should have done something better or I learned the hard way. 13:40.650 --> 13:45.976 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, it's much easier for me to look back and say, yeah, but that was back then. 13:46.036 --> 13:52.723 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've grown and I've made these improvements as opposed to looking at new leaders and saying, oh, yeah, you know what I made that mistake before too. 13:52.763 --> 13:54.686 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me walk you through how to solve that. 13:54.726 --> 13:58.570 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me walk you through the next steps of how to handle the situation next time. 13:58.550 --> 14:09.912 [SPEAKER_02]: and keeping that perspective and being far more forgiving for other people allows us to actually find a pathway of solving problems as opposed to putting the weight on their shoulders to have to fix it themselves. 14:10.373 --> 14:19.090 [SPEAKER_00]: And as we're thinking about our previous, you know, mistakes that we've made in life, we also have to understand it like it's okay to ask for help. 14:19.289 --> 14:29.967 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that when I go to the grocery store and I'm talking to my wife Amanda before I run the grocery store, I know that I'm going to forget stuff if I don't write it down. 14:30.528 --> 14:40.504 [SPEAKER_00]: And so RSOP, our standard operating procedure for when I go to the grocery store, is she will send me a text message following up with what she asked me to get even if it's 14:40.484 --> 14:58.594 [SPEAKER_00]: three things and it's now to the point like in my wife has this crazy superpower where she knows the aisle like she'll be like hey it's not this aisle or she might even look it up if I'm in a different store in that location and she'll send me screenshots from the store's app with the aisle information because she wants this. 14:58.574 --> 15:18.591 [SPEAKER_00]: specific brand for whatever she's cooking and the originated for me just asking her one time hey could you please text me all the things that you wanted me to get and my wife is like yeah no worries and that's just our SOP for that and you know it reminded me of what you're saying life in the sill teams when we were checking our gear self-check buddy check 15:18.571 --> 15:29.872 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's the same thing that we talk about and we teach at the FTX, the field training exercises that we run at our Sloan Front because there are times that Cody and I are out there running scenarios and people's gear isn't plugged in. 15:29.992 --> 15:32.597 [SPEAKER_00]: The laser tax systems that we invested into. 15:32.982 --> 15:53.708 [SPEAKER_00]: their sensors aren't plugged in or their their vests is on backwards and their gear is is is set up incorrectly and we don't say anything we let them run it we let them just run the scenario and they're having issues with their gear and they're all frustrated and then we will show them pictures or videos or we'll talk about in the debrief and that's one of the points that we always get to bring up at an FX because 15:53.688 --> 15:59.454 [SPEAKER_00]: we are batting 100% over the last couple of years of somebody messing up that gear is, hey, check your gear. 15:59.855 --> 16:00.876 [SPEAKER_00]: You need to have a checklist. 16:01.337 --> 16:03.839 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, do you have checklist up in at work? 16:04.900 --> 16:12.189 [SPEAKER_00]: If people skip their checklist at work, are there certain industries where if they do that, somebody can get injured or killed, the answer is always yes. 16:12.849 --> 16:22.480 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just a good reminder for us to explain the importance of doing a self-check buddy check and be willing to 16:22.460 --> 16:24.823 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the same thing that we do at Ashwan Front for our muster briefs. 16:26.045 --> 16:27.587 [SPEAKER_00]: We rehearse with each other. 16:27.607 --> 16:28.749 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Jamie, look over my slides. 16:28.809 --> 16:30.111 [SPEAKER_00]: Does this make sense? 16:30.151 --> 16:33.115 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll do when new instructors come on board. 16:33.476 --> 16:35.459 [SPEAKER_00]: They're not just going up on stage and just talking. 16:35.479 --> 16:38.503 [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to do multiple rehearsals with the instructors. 16:38.563 --> 16:43.290 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because we know that if they're not properly prepared, they're not going to do a good job. 16:43.390 --> 16:45.613 [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to set people up for success. 16:45.833 --> 16:46.915 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's 16:46.895 --> 16:48.636 [SPEAKER_00]: We want our people to win. 16:48.657 --> 16:58.345 [SPEAKER_01]: Jamie, in preparation for this episode, we were talking about how when you talked to someone with some constructive criticism about how they can get better. 16:58.945 --> 17:02.729 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you go into that with the expectation that they're going to like thank you so much. 17:03.369 --> 17:05.231 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for telling me. 17:05.251 --> 17:06.512 [SPEAKER_01]: So grateful for this. 17:06.532 --> 17:08.934 [SPEAKER_01]: So grateful for you telling me that I'm all screwed up. 17:09.615 --> 17:10.796 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to react that way, right? 17:10.896 --> 17:15.940 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have any other expectation, you're going to set yourself up for failure. 17:16.325 --> 17:25.920 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, expect that person if you have negative feedback to be defensive, expect for them to push back, expect for them to have their side of the story. 17:26.381 --> 17:34.333 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, this is where having the right expectations for people allow us to handle those situations with much more effectiveness. 17:34.313 --> 17:46.114 [SPEAKER_02]: Because if I am expecting someone to react in a way that makes sense in the real world, I am better prepared to handle my reaction when they, in fact, meet those expectations. 17:46.695 --> 17:55.630 [SPEAKER_02]: And instead of setting the expectations that are unrealistic and then being frustrated with that individual because they're not reacting in a way that I am hoping they're going to react. 17:55.610 --> 18:11.863 [SPEAKER_02]: it changes the dynamic of how we engage with people and more importantly what it does is if I manage my expectations for that individual, I can approach that situation with the right mindset, the right tone, the right tact, the right delivery to actually hopefully have some influence in the situation. 18:11.843 --> 18:17.192 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm going to talk to JP about something that I think he probably needs to fix, right? 18:17.312 --> 18:22.601 [SPEAKER_01]: Or a mistake that he's making, and I go into that thinking like, okay, you know, I need to use the indirect approach. 18:22.641 --> 18:33.059 [SPEAKER_01]: I need to, instead of saying JP, you're screwed up, I should, I should ask some questions to try to allow him to reveal the truth to himself to say, Hey, JP, what do you think that looked like to the rest of the day? 18:33.459 --> 18:36.805 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and if I can do that, then 18:36.785 --> 18:38.567 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not hemorrhaging leadership capital. 18:38.587 --> 18:39.469 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't get defensive. 18:40.170 --> 18:41.111 [SPEAKER_01]: It lowers your defenses. 18:41.131 --> 18:49.182 [SPEAKER_01]: You see the truth for what it actually is and make those corrections, which is the goal of what I'm actually trying to do. 18:49.202 --> 18:58.054 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if we think about what are we trying to accomplish when you interact with someone else and you think about what contingencies might arise to prevent. 18:58.574 --> 19:05.644 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether you're trying to, let's say you're trying to brief the boss on a new strategy that you think would be that you think would be successful. 19:05.624 --> 19:11.084 [SPEAKER_01]: And you think, oh, this is a no-brainer, which absolutely do this, think through the contingency to how might the boss react? 19:11.104 --> 19:12.710 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, the boss is a little concerned about. 19:12.911 --> 19:14.115 [SPEAKER_01]: Our expenses right now. 19:14.652 --> 19:15.533 [SPEAKER_01]: What's that gonna cost us? 19:15.974 --> 19:18.858 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you gonna mitigate the risk of managing those expenses? 19:19.278 --> 19:31.875 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you've already thought about those things and you're speaking to them and you put some answers together, it will set you up for a much better success and a much higher probability that you could be successful. 19:31.895 --> 19:41.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the first conversation may not actually be successful in that effort too, you gotta be patient and it may take some time, you know, for people to come around to an idea as well. 19:41.247 --> 19:46.937 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but you, you definitely have to think through those likely contenties that might happen. 19:47.038 --> 19:48.827 [SPEAKER_01]: And the reality when you're dealing with people, 19:49.550 --> 19:51.112 [SPEAKER_01]: people do unexpected things as well. 19:51.132 --> 20:03.624 [SPEAKER_01]: I was sitting in a hide site in South Korea with some South Korean seals on my first appointment and we were doing what we call a special reconnaissance mission we were observing at training target. 20:04.445 --> 20:19.320 [SPEAKER_01]: This is an exercise with the South Koreans and so we're on this mountain side and we went in at night time over the beach and dug in our positions and we put these hide sites together and you don't want to be 20:19.300 --> 20:23.269 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we thought we were in a position where like, no one's gonna, you know, come up with this mountain side. 20:23.289 --> 20:28.320 [SPEAKER_01]: It was pouring down rain and and the weather was cold and we're up on this mountain side. 20:28.360 --> 20:31.367 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, who would be up here for 30 in the morning? 20:31.908 --> 20:36.077 [SPEAKER_01]: There was an elderly Korean man just. 20:36.428 --> 20:40.155 [SPEAKER_01]: rolling down the trail with it, you know, like 20 yards away from our hideside. 20:40.235 --> 20:44.544 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, man, this, initially we thought it was the role players and plan to play the bad guys. 20:44.584 --> 20:45.846 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just a civilian. 20:45.907 --> 20:46.588 [SPEAKER_01]: It was out for a show. 20:46.728 --> 20:52.800 [SPEAKER_01]: This was the, the, uh, this was Jocco's South Korean cousin that just got up at 430 in the morning to, uh, 20:52.780 --> 20:55.164 [SPEAKER_01]: go out and get his hike on up the mountainside. 20:56.266 --> 20:58.109 [SPEAKER_01]: People do stuff. 20:58.129 --> 20:58.750 [SPEAKER_01]: People are people. 20:58.790 --> 21:00.813 [SPEAKER_01]: They do random things that you can't really predict. 21:01.214 --> 21:04.680 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you need to predict that people are unpredictable, right? 21:05.060 --> 21:13.354 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, you know, if JP or reaction away or Jamie, if you react in a way that I'm like, 21:13.334 --> 21:17.601 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you've got super defensive and I wasn't really expecting that that's going to happen. 21:17.621 --> 21:30.482 [SPEAKER_01]: I should be running that calculus to recognize, to expect the unexpected, but I can't be, I can't, could you see planning is great, but I can't be so focused on like this is exactly what's going to happen because we actually don't know what's going to happen. 21:30.462 --> 21:31.484 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a crystal ball. 21:31.824 --> 21:37.673 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to build a flexible plan and have to be ready for the unexpected and people are unpredictable. 21:38.013 --> 21:39.155 [SPEAKER_01]: People get dramatic. 21:39.235 --> 21:40.177 [SPEAKER_01]: People get emotional. 21:40.537 --> 21:41.759 [SPEAKER_01]: People react in certain ways. 21:41.839 --> 21:47.347 [SPEAKER_01]: There's things that are going on behind the scenes or in their lives that we may not know about that can cause that. 21:47.948 --> 21:50.512 [SPEAKER_01]: And you just have to be prepared for them. 21:50.532 --> 21:53.196 [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, you're going to be let down constantly. 21:53.834 --> 22:01.375 [SPEAKER_02]: So the goal that we're trying to accomplish is to stop being surprised by the behavior that we should expect from people. 22:02.057 --> 22:05.005 [SPEAKER_02]: And that comes down to us managing our expectations. 22:05.065 --> 22:08.856 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the immediate action drill for this episode is to... 22:08.836 --> 22:15.664 [SPEAKER_02]: think about that the next time you have an interaction with someone that, you know, potentially is frustrating for a pair for that. 22:15.984 --> 22:19.729 [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure that you're going into that conversation with the right expectations. 22:19.829 --> 22:26.176 [SPEAKER_02]: What should I expect from this individual based on the conversation that we have to have or the situation that we're dealing with? 22:26.537 --> 22:32.143 [SPEAKER_02]: And by managing your expectations, you'll be better prepared to communicate more effectively without individual. 22:32.714 --> 23:01.641 [SPEAKER_01]: Just remember people with people, just like you, and be forgiving, give them some grace, don't set a standard that you can't even achieve for other people to achieve, whether it's your kids, whether it's your team, whether it's your coworkers, whether it's your clients, whoever you're working with alongside, make sure that you give some grace, manage those expectations, think about the contingencies, and if you do that, you can much better lead and win.