[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm U.A.
[SPEAKER_01]: Xu.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: Divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: For some, it's a lived experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: For others, it's a quiet fear in the background of every serious relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what if the D word doesn't have to feel like a failure or something to avoid at all costs?
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by divorce expert and coach Alicia Robertson to unpack why divorce and any major breakup,
[SPEAKER_01]: doesn't have to define you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We explore how fear of an ending can keep people stuck in the wrong relationships, settling for less than they deserve, or avoiding love altogether, from a psychological perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our fear of loss is often tied to identity, shame, and the stories we've internalized about success and failure in relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alicia reframes divorce not as proof that something
[SPEAKER_01]: and deeper self-trust.
[SPEAKER_01]: We discuss how to move forward without bitterness, how to date again without caring old narratives, and why an ending can actually be the beginning of a more aligned chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and if this episode shifted how you think about endings, we love a rating or review.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that
[SPEAKER_01]: many of us fear divorce rightfully so.
[SPEAKER_01]: But our guest today is here to tell us that it could actually be a good thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very excited to hear how this could be a good thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you ladies.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yes, I am the odd person that gets very excited to talk about divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you're on an island for one, but hopefully there'll be more people joining you on this island.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again for being part of our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now divorce has been part of your story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So give us a little background on what happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I was in my 30s.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had just given birth to my son this six weeks old.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I knew something was off.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yes, I was in the throws of postpartum anxiety.
[SPEAKER_03]: So something was very off, but there was something deeper.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember going into our home gym and asking my then husband, if we were going to be okay, and he is usually my rock.
[SPEAKER_03]: And says it, yeah, of course it's going to be okay and here's how we're going to get through it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's time he sat down from his workout and he just looked at me and he said, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, and so it wasn't about the words I want to divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew from the look in his eyes that it was over.
[SPEAKER_03]: Shit.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: We were a happy, healthy, thriving couple as far as we could both tell.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were going through all of the relationship ups and downs.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were married in our 20s.
[SPEAKER_03]: We built community and brought together friend groups.
[SPEAKER_03]: We worked in a business together.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had our first child and then our second.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so of course, you know, it was the roller coaster of marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: And certainly there were
[SPEAKER_03]: some things to work on, like there always is, but I didn't see anything that was relationship ending.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I really, really was at a loss when I saw the look in his eyes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in that moment, I was absolutely thrown into the depths of heartbreak, failure, and shame, and despair.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would have rather stayed on the floor in the fetal position than to have gotten up to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: So at that point did he say I wanted to force or did it come later after that later?
[SPEAKER_03]: So we spent as most people do the next year really trying to unpack is this marriage ending can we work on this?
[SPEAKER_03]: What can we do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we both willing to try?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we both willing to try with the same amount of effort with a lot going on with a new little baby?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we really did
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember saying to him, I can feel illness growing in my body, while continuing to live in this state of limbo, and not being able to move forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the thing is with all relationships, we all go through tough seasons, but who can we really share these honest things with?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I was so isolated, and I was struggling with my own mental health and wellness, and the only resources I could find were how to save your marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I didn't and couldn't see or find a path forward that seemed hopeful.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just knew that I couldn't continue to live on egg shells the way we had been living and that I couldn't see the forest from the trees inside our relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I said to him, I think this is what we need to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was an interesting time because there's never a right time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this was October and we were headed into the Christmas season.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember saying to, oh my goodness, we have Christmas, maybe we'll do it in the new year, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we've been this long.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've been this long.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can go for more.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was actually him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank goodness, he's an incredible leader and he said, you know what, I actually think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Making a decision to share the news during the most intimate and public times and family spaces is the best decision that we can make for ourselves and our family so that we can model what it is and how we want people to treat us moving forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: And truthfully because it wasn't my decision, I'd spent a year trying everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was finding a really hard time coming up with the words that didn't feel like a sellout or that I wasn't being honest and that we're filled with integrity because we wanted to be a unified friend.
[SPEAKER_03]: But my whole world was constructed around the success of marriage and that marriages till death do us part and nothing can be that bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: You work through it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I really settled on the fact that you know what it actually doesn't matter how we got here.
[SPEAKER_03]: and how much we've been suffering and all the work that we've done.
[SPEAKER_03]: What matters is that we share our decision and that we are very clear with how we want people to move forward with us along this journey.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that was the start of really starting to have an understanding that I could be in control of this narrative, though it not my choosing, that it could be within integrity and that I could start to move forward with healing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know we're going to talk about how divorce can be the best thing, but I think like I can feel it myself, but I can also hear our listeners say like this feels scary, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You think your relationship is going well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one day out of nowhere, so it just changes their mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Without being too nosy, in retrospect, did you see things building, like was it big enough to be that catalyst or like, how would you describe it now that everything may be more clear?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think in retrospect there were so many micro things, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so one of the biggest things is that I had really started to live for the labels and the titles and the narrative.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, in what success looked like and had never really taken time to understand what it really truly meant for myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: So while I took on all these hats, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Successful student to successful business person to building a business to becoming a wife, to becoming a mom, I was so caught up in what those titles were and what those labels were.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just continued to become further and further removed from who I was and what my core values were.
[SPEAKER_03]: and really started to live according to everybody else's idea of what success was.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there was that, there was an unhappiness growing that way, there was a lack of intimacy, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, I didn't know, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: There's so many opportunities to find the information that will give you what you want to hear, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I lived in a world of cliches, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's struggling when it's a young family and you've got a busy career in business and that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel as long as your libidos are in sync, it's okay if you're not having sex all the time or whatever these things were, I just really thought, okay, I mean, there's only one option, have a marriage for life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so regardless of what the highs and lows are
[SPEAKER_03]: You got to make this work.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I really ignored any and all of the signs.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we would talk about them but at a real surface level.
[SPEAKER_03]: Never did we go for intensive couples therapy or individual therapy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Though we were always humans that were growing and evolving and really the awesome part for us was that we were always a great team.
[SPEAKER_03]: We always had a great friendship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we built a business together that was really successful.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're just focused on all of these other things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess if I could summarize, we just failed to pivot or move into a thriving family dynamic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's part of the fear, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we can openly say the futures unpredictable.
[SPEAKER_01]: You never know what's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could get married today and
[SPEAKER_01]: say your vows and be in love and that's a truth for today but you could grow apart and that's really not on anybody's fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could just be you evolved out of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's still so scary for me to think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It may not even manifest itself into a divorce but just the thought of someone you're so close to evolving out of your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you able to process this
[SPEAKER_01]: departure in the grief.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that first year I was in therapy weekly, so my therapist was my rock.
[SPEAKER_03]: I turned to all kinds of self-care and healing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really went on a journey from self-acceptance to self-love.
[SPEAKER_03]: to prioritizing myself to start to really understand who am I?
[SPEAKER_03]: What is my identity outside of these labels and titles?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are my values?
[SPEAKER_03]: My governing code of conduct and how do I want to act and live and behave?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it really was learning about who am I for the first time?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think to some degree, I'd always lived according to other people's narratives.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember my therapist saying to me when I first called her and I was in crisis, but that's really where she focused was on, you know, all that you can control is right here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she said to me, I mean, you know, a scale of zero to 10, do you know who you are?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember saying, two, on a scale of zero to 10, do you know what you want?
[SPEAKER_03]: on a scale of zero to 10, do you have the courage to go for it?
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a little higher.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, okay, a five.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know I'm a strong, you know, capable woman.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I hadn't realized just how far I had dropped between thriving to survival and then into suffering mode.
[SPEAKER_03]: The reason why I think it's so important to share that is because I think that people, when they're going through these really real raw experience, that are massive change and grief,
[SPEAKER_03]: to an epic proportion, super stressful.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are also wildly successful, capable, resourceful, resilient humans at the same time, and it's so okay to be both.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that you knew yourself before you got married and then lost yourself in marriage?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or do you think this was kind of a skill you never had?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's both, I think it's a skill I never had.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I say it to skill I never had, the pressure and the narrative that I had subscribed to was stability over a meaningful life, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And that stability meant you get married and you have to be married before you have your babies.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you have your babies, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the white picket fences I really subscribed to that
[SPEAKER_03]: when you're not feeling great or you're feeling off, it's because you're selfless.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the heck wants to be selfless, but that was like a badge of honor to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm serving everybody else before myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I just don't think I'm an incredibly sensitive person.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm an empath.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am a people pleaser, so I think there was this perfect storm as I was growing up to not really have the tools and the skills to or the courage to unpack what some of these things meant.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you say, do you know before marriage?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I sort of felt like my life was, you know, I was going to be on a green piece boat in the middle of the Pacific or living with white picket fences, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew that there was this polarizing side to my personality, but I didn't know how to take the risks.
[SPEAKER_03]: and take the chances, and you know, travel the world and backpack the world, all these things are really desired to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I always made the right choice, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Get the degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you the Mary thing?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it wasn't a matter of, did I know before I got Mary that I had chosen the wrong partner?
[SPEAKER_03]: Heck no.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was the man of my dreams, and we lived a beautiful, wild, loving, thriving relationship together.
[SPEAKER_03]: but I wasn't necessarily being true to my true self.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even you saying that just resonates so much because this question of do you even know yourself?
[SPEAKER_01]: We often have to pause and step back and ask, is it the me I know myself through the lens of others?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it the me that I know myself through the lens of myself?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a very hard question to answer this idea of identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I spoke about in the beginning of this, my partner is divorced and he has a lot of divorce friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they often say, I would not wish to divorce on my worst enemy because it was a hardest thing ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I ask, what was so hard?
[SPEAKER_01]: What was a hardest thing for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they said it was this link to failure in their identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, well, in my career, I could be leaving a job refiared late off from a job, but then I bounced back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have another career.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get another job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not a dent in your identity, but in marriage, a divorce stays with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are now known as the divorced person who failed a marriage and they could not come to terms with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the hardest thing for you in dealing with a divorce?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I want to see it takes me back when you say that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember the moment we're having the conversation deciding that we were going to proceed with separation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is so layered, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Basically we're going to share our dirty little secret with the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was so worried about what people would think and all the questions I would have.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember my former partner looking at me and just saying, I can't believe that's what you're worried about when our relationship is ending.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at that point in time, with as little fortitude as I had, I was so worried about being not enough, being a failure, the shame.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was so worried about my children coming from a broken home.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was so worried, I had young babies and I thought, how am I going to still cope,
[SPEAKER_03]: and have to co-exist with this person when you're younger and you don't have children, this is kind of a bit easier in my way of thinking.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like, I'll just never have to see you again.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I knew that, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew this isn't something that is just going to go away.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sure that was also some of it, you know, for the first time in my life, amongst all of these things that were crashing down, I wasn't going to be able to avoid this or find some other superficial thing to focus and fixate on.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was going to be a lot of work, a lot of intention, and a lot of healing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I knew I knew this was going to be a big process.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think though?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I hear what you're saying, you know, because I've heard a lot of people say this too, and there's this fear, even if you're not divorced, but like moving into next stages of relationship, like what if I get divorced?
[SPEAKER_00]: But my take would be like, isn't just not even trying or like being fearful of that failure worse, but I think some people justify that, actually it is worse to try and fail.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do you think there is that mentality?
[SPEAKER_03]: So some of my clients are contemplating divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: Others are in separation and have made the decision themselves and others are in separation and it has not been their decision.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I can tell you with all of my clients that are in contemplation exactly what you're talking about, Julie.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all this chewing and throwing of what if.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right now, I know what's comfortable and good or bad or sometimes good or sometimes bad, even those that are in generational cycles of trauma and abuse and addiction and mental health, they themselves still are weighing these options to go, but this is what I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this has my family in one house and home.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm able to continue to care for them how I know to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the thought of uncoupling everything is daunting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I can tell you, first of all, will I be okay, and then it goes to finances, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I even sustain the lifestyle I have?
[SPEAKER_03]: How will I rebuild a future at this stage in life if I am behind financially or have never been in the workforce or came out of the workforce?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the children are my children gonna be okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the unfortunate thing is that we don't ever have these answers, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the thing with breakup and end of relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: We start to have these rose colored glasses on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we forget that relationships are hard, that there's always an incredible amount of compromise, that change, crisis, and challenge are constant.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're already dealing with so much tough stuff and looking at ending a relationship for so many layers and so many reasons seems like it is going to be that much worse.
[SPEAKER_03]: When in fact, we are really equipped to be able to get out of our comfort zones, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And learn and heal and grow and have a positive attitude about it and create our reality.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was going to ask, because obviously, this is how this, you can actually thrive out of the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go to the thriving.
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely, because I guess alternative is I hear you with like, you know, this is difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the risk of having to uncouple.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, what's the alternative?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just not trying at all and not ever being in love and ever being in relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do you start to still be able to take the risk knowing that this could happen?
[SPEAKER_00]: it not be as fearful of divorce because right now it sounds a little scary to be honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I think I could be the cautionary tale that when you don't deal with it, it's going to definitely result in the end of your partnership.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was my case.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you choose to deal with it, you've got a shot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you both will rise to the occasion.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you won't.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've had many clients who have reconciled, but it's not until we can
[SPEAKER_03]: that we can actually get somewhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I will have a lot of clients who will be in therapy, but therapy towards divorce, which is a really challenging experience, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And to my way of thinking, if you're not speaking your truth, you're really doing a disservice to someone that you really care about and that you really love and honor.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you care about your family, then I think that it is worth speaking the truth and taking the chances and taking the risks.
[SPEAKER_03]: even if it ends in divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: And let's just back up one more step there because I also want to echo what Julie is asking.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see that the fear of divorce paralyzes people from taking that next step of commitment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see it with a lot of my friends and the people around me they'll say, well, I don't want to get married because I don't want to get divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not even going to try to take that step.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do people still accept their truth of having their fear?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we all have that fear, but still take that leap of faith into commitment and love.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting how you said that you are because divorce is a little bit on the decline for some of what you just said.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people are choosing alternate types of relationships, not the, you know, religious, matrimonial marriage that we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, there's cohabitation and there's all kinds of common law and what's the one together apart, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So you're together, but living apart.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's so many different choices people are making.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say that a healthy thriving relationship is still built on communication, transparency, you know, honesty, and making sure that your lifestyle choices are compatible.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I would say there's vulnerability in risk in any relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that marriage and divorce is the beyond end all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Breaking up is really hard regardless of the relationship that you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's say you
[SPEAKER_00]: want to take your fearful, right, or you are someone that's been divorced.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do you start to see divorce as, okay, it's a lot to unravel, it's going to be a very difficult time of your life, but how do you start to see this as something that could be a good thing for you like you were able to see?
[SPEAKER_03]: First and foremost, when I'm working with people, is that positive attitude to be able to look at things with a positive lens, a growth mindset, there's opportunity for healing
[SPEAKER_03]: and for evolution, mindfulness and extreme amount of self care to be able to really prioritize yourself and to really be able to have that positive lift of energy and the confidence that really is coming from within.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you start to really focus on yourself and really
[SPEAKER_03]: start to understand and create a life that matters to you, then you're able to start to really communicate effectively for how you want this to look.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so for me, the actual work that I do with so many clients is about self-worth
[SPEAKER_03]: healthy boundaries, communication strategies, and confidence.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if truly, first and foremost, we understand who am I, what do I want?
[SPEAKER_03]: And here's the boundaries that I need to establish for myself to have a healthy, thriving relationship with any person in my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then here's how I'm going to communicate in order to get the results that I desire or to at least have open, inflexible dialogue to be able to make healthy compromises.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's through that practice that we start to build confidence because the reality is number one I don't see it as negative because I see so many women who are breaking down generational cycles so that is just straight up they're making bold choices.
[SPEAKER_03]: so that their children see differently and that they have a chance to heal and to model differently for their children.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's super, super important.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the reality is that your previous life stands for so much goodness.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a legacy of marriage and bringing together community and building businesses and careers and family and so on and so forth.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so being really clear that this is about creating a new relationship as you move forward with your new family dynamic.
[SPEAKER_03]: and that new relationship can be anything that you choose it to be.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if it's with a difficult X partner, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There is this risk of fear of divorce black hole, and it goes something like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's two people really need to work and try their best to be in a healthy, sustainable relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: But because of the fear of divorce, it makes people not want to invest as much into that relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, they kind of trigger each other so you have the cycle that repeats where it's like, I want to try my best, but because of this fear of divorce, I want to hold back, because I don't want to invest all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to invest myself into this relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can people break out of this cycle where there's just absolute inaction at that point?
[SPEAKER_03]: For me, that is still about focusing on everything that you can control.
[SPEAKER_03]: if you are with someone who is making poor choices and not showing up to do the work that's needed to be able to be aligned on values in your partnership have similar goals have compatible lifestyle choices to be able to model healthy intimacy for your family.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're not aligned there and you have another person or one person or both that are defaulting on any of those levels, either with choices, actions, behaviors,
[SPEAKER_03]: or not willing to work on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: For me, now from the other side, I would say, I don't make excuses for people's behaviors.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't justify poor behavior.
[SPEAKER_03]: I definitely am not here to do the work for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So many of us are a meshed and co-dependence, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't take on your problems that I don't remove your power.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these are landmarks that I sit with and that I coach people with
[SPEAKER_03]: And unless someone is actively trying to improve and you're aligned on that, you know everything you need to know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And either not making a decision or choosing to stay stuck and be in a situation that is less than ideal, is still a choice.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's on you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's the same thing, you know, people will say, well, wait till the kids are out of the house, that was one of the bigger times for divorce, is the empty nesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: When an actual fact, A, that's about as selfish as I could imagine that you're putting that burden on your children, that while we stayed together for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead of modeling, working on ourselves and a healthy relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other thing is, I actually can't imagine not holding our children close to heart and home while they're going through something incredibly daunting and emotional.
[SPEAKER_03]: and that they would all of a sudden be off in their independent life with no support, while also navigating their own grief.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just think there's a lot of personal accountability and responsibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can tell I get a little fired up.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can't just do the blame, shame, show to what it could is at some point that has to stop and you've got to be fully accountable for your life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And would you want your children to make the same decisions?
[SPEAKER_03]: Will you be one day calling them?
[SPEAKER_03]: out on certain things that they're accepting of, then probably good to start modeling it now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know you said you had this resurgence of life after divorce.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like your in therapy, it's painful.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going through the trenches.
[SPEAKER_00]: What gets you out of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what gets you to that next stage of the next chapter?
[SPEAKER_03]: So many things in the beginning, when you're grieving and you're going through massive change and crisis, self-care,
[SPEAKER_03]: needs to be super accessible.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So going to the gym three times a week, that is not happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're happy if you got it a bed.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, we just got it a bed, put the feet on the floor, and maybe have a shower, get some rest when we can get some rest, creating space around us that's comfortable.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for me, there was simple things like starting to fill my home with plants and watering plants, just caring for something outside of myself that was really simple.
[SPEAKER_03]: So just
[SPEAKER_03]: that's supported with professionals.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the way that I got through it was treating it like a project and it was, you know, my greatest side hustle was my life and it was my finances and my career and my relationships and myself care.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in terms of that wheel of all of the categories in your life that need to be healthy and whole, I worked on it from that perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: So to me, it wasn't about a divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was about, okay, how do I make sure that I'm financially independent?
[SPEAKER_03]: and then if I desire to, how do I start to put the wheels' emotion to have wealth?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are the types of experiences I want to have to have fun and creativity?
[SPEAKER_03]: How will I take care of myself in terms of nourishing myself?
[SPEAKER_03]: So all of the categories in life is to start to really do an inventory.
[SPEAKER_03]: M.I.
[SPEAKER_03]: living to my highest potential right now for what's accessible.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can only make the best decision we can make for ourselves with the information we have.
[SPEAKER_03]: right now, regardless of where we're at.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because so many people, right, we all hear, well, I don't feel ready or when this happens, then I will.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you're never going to feel ready.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's really important to start doing that whole healthy work for yourself and your life immediately.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to sound counterintuitive really, but it's to have a divorce mindset.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Divorce is possible.
[SPEAKER_03]: And anything could happen, one of you could die.
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember there was a country song and the country song was, you're always working on your next heartbreak for a variety of reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: But in terms of a relationship, being fearful of the divorce does it mean that it's not going to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, could take a lot of the joy out of things, I really think that if you know that you are both choosing to be here, not because you have to, but because we both want to.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're both responsible for our own health and happiness, then it's to be in this awareness truly that we're changing.
[SPEAKER_03]: We will have a different relationships within our existing relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it doesn't have to end in divorce, but divorce truly is an option.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's like, how do we change the stigma of divorce?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like, there even is a stigma with breaking up, I think there's a failure feeling.
[SPEAKER_00]: But really what you're saying is that we all change, we might just grow apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it turns out that the best thing for both of us is to live different lives, like, why should that hold the stigma that it does?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do you think it holds so much stigma?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we change that?
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just chatting with a girlfriend about this and she's chosen to be
[SPEAKER_03]: and not have marriage be a part of her life and not have children be a part of her life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were talking about how so much of the status in the narratives that we have built in life, whether it's diet culture, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether it's marriage and relationships, whether it's to have children, there's so much in the way of prescribed narratives of right and wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's very little opportunity for any flexibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think women get it the hardest, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You hear things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, if you're not in a couple, what's wrong with you?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you must be an old cat lady, spin stress, whatever the, you know, and you said, oh, think goodness, it's not midlife crisis, but midlife transformation and midlife uncertainty, women get the, well, it's over, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no, you know, future left for us.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've just, you know, we go through very meta-pause, we're dried up and, you know, put us into the path there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, and this is where to change that up, I really think that so many of these social norms that dictate what is right and wrong are also so harmful.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think of divorce parties?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I feel like that's a new trend of like celebrating divorce.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard of a few people doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been to one.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have not had one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I've also heard of divorce registries.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can get all these stuff, you know, that's brilliant.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that actually makes more sense than marriage registries when you think about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, I think we can all have a registry no matter what for always for everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a big fan of whatever is being done that it's positive and then it holds integrity because in my opinion our children are watching.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if it is something that is celebrating your new lease on life or you know some milestones or accomplishments that you've done,
[SPEAKER_03]: great to celebrate divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have mixed with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: For a lot of people divorce is entirely traumatic and children are powerless in this situation and they don't get to participate in making those decisions and how that might feel and look to them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would proceed with caution on divorce parties personally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the divorce party I went to was a friend of a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was totally random, but it was at the standard hotel in LA.
[SPEAKER_01]: My friends like, come out, my friends having a divorce party.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, never been to one, never heard of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We went and had a really great time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I think is, like you said, whatever feels right for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's therapeutic for some people to celebrate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe you've been trying to get out of a toxic relationship and that you feel, yeah, you want to celebrate the ending of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: you do you whatever works for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm still kind of stuck on this fear of divorce because people are always afraid of getting their hearts broken, breakups, but there's something about divorce that adds this extra element of fear.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's public, there could be more assets involved, there could be children involved, it's on tangling of two people's lives,
[SPEAKER_01]: families, they're set extra layer that is making a lot of our data's unable to take that next step.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not just of the people we talk to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, China right now is facing a major problem where people are not trying to get divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: And believe it or not, you couldn't have children on your own.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was illegal until recently.
[SPEAKER_01]: Chinese government decided that they had a population issue, people weren't getting married, so they're legalizing having kids without being married, which is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's because people are so fearful of divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what is the first step people can take when they feel that fear consumed their body, the first step that someone can do?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think to be come informed.
[SPEAKER_03]: understand, not just what is divorce in your area, but to become informed about those fears that are actually limiting beliefs, that are likely very old and very modeled for us, and really starting to unpack what is a fear that is old and is a limiting belief that may or may not serve you versus your truth.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for example, one of my fears was that
[SPEAKER_03]: If I am divorced, I will no longer have a family.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of my top values is family.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was so afraid that someone else would take my place and would be my children's mom and that they would like dad and that family.
[SPEAKER_03]: Better like so many of these fears because in my mind, if you're not married, you don't have a family.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was so much to unpack for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And getting to what were my fears about that in my limiting bleak so many that we've talked about, but coming over to my truth, what is family?
[SPEAKER_03]: Family is connection, experiences, love, unconditional support.
[SPEAKER_03]: All of these things that I can describe to you, and I can tell you, family is not just blood.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's chosen, family.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was able to go from, again, having a real understanding of information that is both emotional and logistical because really, until we can understand what is in front of us, will be filled with anxiety, filled with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: The more that we can become prepared and have a plan, even if it's just a plan that here's how I'm going to start to unpack what it is that are my fears.
[SPEAKER_03]: That reduces anxiety.
[SPEAKER_03]: fierce, what I often say is there's old and then there's new.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, fears that are old come up from generations and generations.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a beautiful place in therapy and right to have some really deep conversations and really to really get to some grassroots healing and perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: with some strategies, where coaching and life coaches really support is kind of on the new, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So divorce would be a temporary thing, a temporary crisis.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's new.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then we can get into action from that standpoint.
[SPEAKER_03]: Pain hurts, but it's temporary.
[SPEAKER_03]: Divorce sucks, but it's temporary.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are the things we need to move forward?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really like that, like, what is the deeper fear?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think when we say divorce, it's just like, oh, yeah, it's so big and blank it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We hear a lot of leaders say, like, my parents got divorced, and that's why I'm afraid of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's unpacking, like, okay, is your relationship anything like your parents are you holding on to this limiting belief or fear that just has no justification.
[SPEAKER_03]: Totally, I remember one of this was a such a cool exercise when I was at the very good beginning of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my therapist suggested to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: She said, if you can interview as far back as you can go and I didn't, but I had, I know my family very well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just, it was an internal interview that I journaled with and it was everything, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Conflict, communication, budgeting, finances.
[SPEAKER_03]: all the things social, all the things you can think about in life and how did as far back as you can remember, handle it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And all of a sudden I started to connect these dots where, you know, we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, did I ever have a chance?
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just a part
[SPEAKER_03]: As a child, you survive in these complex environments.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so often, it's not checked.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why would you check it?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's just the way it's done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's why it's so important to be doing this self work before even getting in relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's clearly like there's more work to be done once in a relationship, but understanding yourself in your background and your fears and the way of thinking, I mean, I think that's really the only thing that we have that can get us through at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so true and that's why I said I knew when I started this journey that was the tough stuff is that this time I was going to be looking real deep at
[SPEAKER_03]: everything that I needed to unpack and that's not comfortable stuff but it was so worth it and that's why being able to focus on yourself through this experience to live in parallel of this massive change so that you can thrive and that's another thing you ate you mentioned divorce is so scary well it's so scary because we have a system that makes it so scary
[SPEAKER_03]: really in the right and wrong based only on evidence and so many legalities that make no sense at all or really compromise what can be a healthy family unit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you've never managed professionals before,
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a really daunting experience to go and manage a legal team while you are breathing in at your lowest.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the thing is getting out of that mindset, most of us will show up at the lawyer's office with a blank check in hand and expect them to be the therapist and the people to write in this really expensive time and all the while we don't know necessarily what our lifestyle costs or what our lifestyle choices are going to be or
[SPEAKER_03]: how we would like to flow through access and custody with the children.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, so on and so forth, when we wouldn't handle a contract in our home like this, if a contract came to paint a room, you know the paint color, you know the budget, you know when you need it done for, you know, the location of the room, the payment plan,
[SPEAKER_03]: how you will check in on milestones to deliver the payment, but yet this is divorce.
[SPEAKER_03]: The most important thing we're going to go through for our family, and the thing that can cost us the most in terms of any generational wealth that we may have acquired to date or that may be able to afford our children to have more in the future, and we just show up unprepared.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, that's fucking scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to go back to like now how you're thriving post-divores.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause I think that's like ultimately, I mean, it is scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it should prevent people though from having a fulfilling life in love life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do fear that like people might hear this and be like, oh my God, like this just, like, I don't even want to get into a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: How did your life get better post divorce and how are you able to like love again in a relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how have you been able to put yourself back out there without that fear?
[SPEAKER_03]: Doing the work that I'm talking about, there's so much buzz out there, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, manifest, you know, just do the vision board and it will arrive at your doorstep one day or self care.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's also buzz.
[SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, this work is so intentional.
[SPEAKER_03]: and is so filled with effort at every single level.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about how we think, how we perceive, how we speak.
[SPEAKER_03]: how we act, these are really intentional things that we're doing about our life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I refer to it as in the mindfulness space, it really is like a mental horsepower.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it gets easier as we go.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you really want to thrive, that's a big word.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, we do throw out words like thrive and transformation and all this stuff, but really what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Someone who's driving in their life is being very intentional in everything they're doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: That also means that they're very intentional, but love.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're willing to be very intentional about love, that means that you're going to have the information, have the resources, build the skills, be around other people that are modeling, the love that you desire to have, to having an understanding that if you want love, it's important to give love and to practice that.
[SPEAKER_03]: and that love is abundant.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, truly love is within.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was another thing is terms of dating.
[SPEAKER_03]: This unpacking that I need someone to love me, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So if they don't love me, will they leave me?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for example, when I was practicing, so I was one of those people who lived fast and furious in dating, like the love bombing and it had to be exciting and it had to be, you know, the butterflies and I was two years on my own, really working through what is healthy love and what is healthy relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really was doing all of that work, but I so, so the most important thing that I know is that all that I can control is myself and that I can't control whether another person loves me or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if I am enough, then another human being will complement that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I truly believe that when a person comes into my life, they are here for maybe a season, but whatever
[SPEAKER_03]: we're here to enjoy it and to learn from one another where we can share love and roll of not need love.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some gathering from you that you're less outcome focused at this point with relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like do you ever want to get married again?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is that something that's like off the table for you?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's a beautiful experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I am not anti-marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: As some people might think, you know, being a divorce coach.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I love marriage and family so much that that is why I do the work I'm doing because I really think it's possible for people to divorce well, to be able to have a new relationship that is still founded on love and
[SPEAKER_03]: and that new family experience, I would absolutely get married again, would absolutely get married again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right now, though, so I'm coming up on three years with my partner, and we still have decided to live a part, although we're together.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've decided not to blend our families in the home environment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so what I know now about love at this age and stage is it can be anything that I want it to be?
[SPEAKER_03]: When it feels right and it feels like the next thing I want to do, I'll just do it and I'll have so much fun when I do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's one thing that's working for people that maybe are divorce because they've kind of checked all the life milestones already.
[SPEAKER_00]: What about the people like UAE and I are this position that we're not married yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you be less attached to the outcome?
[SPEAKER_00]: But still like try to bring your life at a certain direction?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for me it really is about being focused on the things that matter so that you can take the opinions and
[SPEAKER_03]: and the judgment and all these sneaky fears that come up.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what that is to say is that so for me, I know exactly who I am, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I know my values.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know how I want to live and how I want to get there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I also know really clearly what my values are in partnership.
[SPEAKER_03]: and what are the qualities of a person that matter the most to me?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so when then you're with someone who is checking all of those boxes, right, and you have the same goals and you have compatible lifestyle and healthy intimacy, I truly believe it is about enjoying the ride.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really think the more that you
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's important to focus on the right outcome, if you will.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it's how it makes you feel.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you doing the things that you desire to do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you doing the things that draw you closer to what you want as a couple?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you living in that space?
[SPEAKER_03]: Not the fear-based space.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because again, you know, we honestly just cannot control any of the outcomes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I find that with anyone that I work with that is so focused on the negative outcome, it ends up bringing negative results.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We say that.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you talk about, you know, healthy relationships, I had to practice asking for what I need.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I remember when I first got into the dating world, I would not give so freely, right, because I'm a caregiver and a recovering codependent and, you know, all the things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I had to practice stating who I am and what I want and then practice asking for it and making sure that there was full reciprocity there.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for everyone action that I would do,
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I just, it was a real slow and steady process of practicing and I still practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: I still fall off and I still come back, you know, every time I come back at a bit of a higher round.
[SPEAKER_03]: And guess what?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's still so scary.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, we're all human.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to go through heartbreak again.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, but it does.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even though I've arguably gone through the worst heartbreak, I think it's still to some degree would feel as painful.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's heartbreak.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first time around, it had my family component to it, but it doesn't mean that these are not loves of my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess that's what I've come to realize too, is that I now have three significant loves in my life and they're beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think this conversation, what I'm really taking away from it, like the big takeaway I have is you are the one constant in your life after all.
[SPEAKER_00]: So with divorce, I think the way that you were able to really thrive is that it gave you the opportunity to know yourself into really hone in on your own needs and wants and build the life.
[SPEAKER_00]: that works for you, Alisha as an individual, not as a wife, not as a mother, not as whatever other label.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think whether you're divorced or you're single or you're in a relationship, staying true to yourself and making sure that you're carving out your time,
[SPEAKER_00]: not saying that you're doing that so you can prepare for the worse if your relationship ends for instance, but because you don't lose yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So while you don't want your relationship to end, there is a chance I think this preparing for the worst we had an episode with Dr. Gladys Auto also about breakups.
[SPEAKER_00]: in grief.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she talked about this too of kind of visualizing the breakup before it happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds very counterintuitive, but I think for me it actually is super helpful, because it is an anxiety, it is a fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you can think about like, okay, this could happen, how would I deal with it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Personally, that relieves a lot of stress and pressure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone is clearly different, but I think getting blindsided, not knowing what to do, and of course it's never going to be the exact same as when it's happening, but at least having this idea that it could happen ahead of time, it won't feel as drastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess my big takeaway is the prepare for the worst, and then also, how do you just keep staying true to yourself and putting yourself first even when you are in a relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's so true.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think whether someone blinds at you or you make the decision, it's equally filled with grief.
[SPEAKER_03]: One might be further along than the other.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I actually think that my former partner took and held the greatest act of courage, which was to end our relationship so that we could both become our best selves.
[SPEAKER_03]: whether you call it or not, it's just that act of courage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess it's like, you know, anything in life, you have to shoot for the stars.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yes, be prepared if you don't get there, but it just doesn't mean that so much goodness didn't happen while you were going in that direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I like from seeing you to Alicia is that like, I don't want people to feel like the fear can't let them from living their life and going after things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're living proof right now that there was sure there was a period that was really freaking hard, but you're back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're know you're your vibrant self, you're in a different stage of life, but you're happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just because something bad happens not diminishing the pain of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean it's forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the more we can, like, let go of this almost status of I'm a divorced person with the stigma, like that's how we can not be as afraid of that interimperiod doesn't mean it's forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So much of our fear around divorce is around the mystery of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: For those of us who've never been through it, I think the fear is around like, where do you even start?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have no idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do you file the papers?
[SPEAKER_01]: Logistically, where do you go?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like our conversation with Dr. Gladys Auto.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's picturing the end of a relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: we can do our research into divorce, whether you want to learn about the logistics or even the support that's available for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: You, for example, Alicia, I didn't even know divorce coach existed.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was always kind of my fears, like how do I transition out, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I get back into the swing of things?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nice to know their resources for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a major takeaway for me is that I uncover some of the mystery around divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second takeaway I have is understanding that nothing is permanent.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is absolutely nothing permanent in life, including divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fleeting thing as well in the grand scheme of life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And know that it will suck if it happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is something that people get over with time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Relationships could also end.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you get over those over time too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing is permanent.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes me feel good about just living in the present.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because nothing is guaranteed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, I think for all of us to think about the fear of divorce, the ending of relationships or failure in relationships, it's a very natural thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is totally valid for us to feel that way, but also in a healthy, communicative relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: you are doing your best to be in that relationship, to choose to be in that relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if someone blinds sides you with a divorce or wine to leave, it means that you were not communicating.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were not fit if for each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And two, if you are trying your best and you decide that you still are wanting to evolve out of that relationship, you did your best.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can always try my best and that is not failure.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is success in every sense of the word.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I hope that these stigmatizes divorce as well because hopefully you only reach divorce when you've tried your best in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: all this list and sometimes it's just time to sometimes it's too little too late and sometimes it's just the decision you're making and I find so many of us stay stuck in really unhealthy situations because we feel like we have to provide some checklist of
[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to deal with our guilt, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Our guilt.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to not be the ones that hold all the blame and the shame.
[SPEAKER_03]: It comes from very natural big feelings, but at the end of the day, again, those are just...
[SPEAKER_03]: fears that are feeding into some other limiting beliefs, that it's okay if you just are ready for a change.
[SPEAKER_03]: We try our best world right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for people that like aren't there yet, like that's why there's nothing bad in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just this fear because of the general fear of divorce or their parents got divorced or they got divorced in the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for all attempts of purposes, their relationship is good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest
[SPEAKER_00]: Failure is just not trying, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like getting overcome by this fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then for the people that are in something that's not good, the biggest failure is just not doing anything either.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like the inaction is actually worse than the action, whether that's taking the risk and the leap, or saying, okay, this isn't working.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we need to move on, do our separate things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love that you said that because how many times could we get ahead of something and have so much more opportunity to really be in a place where we still like each other, enjoy each other, respect each other, can have healthy communication to the extent that we're able to versus when we have this indecision and resent and contempt and anger and sadness all really start to build and now you're in a very complex and high conflict situation and to me that's
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Alicia for this for giving us hope but also demystifying divorce and the fear of divorce kind of breaking down why we're fearful and thank you for sharing your personal story.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nice to talk to a survivor, someone who has been through it, done it and came out on top on the other end.
[SPEAKER_01]: So very nice to hear that.
[SPEAKER_01]: If people want to learn more about what you do, how can they find you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I would love to keep this conversation going.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm on Instagram at Lemonade Life Coach over on email, connect at LemonadeLife.ca and the website is LemonadeLife.ca as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.