WEBVTT 00:08.452 --> 00:11.358 [SPEAKER_00]: They say there's nothing new under the sun and ain't that the truth. 00:11.699 --> 00:16.128 [SPEAKER_00]: The working songwriter has been on the air for over 10 years and 300 episodes now. 00:16.789 --> 00:27.591 [SPEAKER_00]: As you've probably noticed, only the latest 100 published episodes are available in your podcast app and on Spotify, so we're bringing back some of the gems from past years. 00:27.571 --> 00:33.942 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, if you want access to every single episode of the show at any time, you can become a subscriber to the vault. 00:34.503 --> 00:43.998 [SPEAKER_00]: The vault is a private member's only section of my website, JoePug Music.com, where you can access any episode of the show for streaming and download at any time. 00:44.519 --> 00:48.506 [SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, we're bringing back some classic episodes to the main feed. 00:48.927 --> 00:51.030 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that a reason to not join the vault? 00:51.010 --> 00:58.641 [SPEAKER_00]: No, because it means that our latest episodes will only get pay-walled all the sooner, is this a relatively convoluted system? 00:58.942 --> 01:05.591 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course it is, because such are the trade-offs that the ever-changing media landscape leaves us to navigate. 01:05.812 --> 01:06.753 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being here. 01:07.134 --> 01:12.582 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always an honor that you listen to the show, and I hope that you enjoy some of these classic episodes. 01:12.922 --> 01:18.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Today's episode with John Craigy was originally aired on August 14, 2020. 01:18.871 --> 01:31.493 [SPEAKER_00]: a brief scan of the headlines from that day remind us that COVID was still in full swing, and Joe Exotic of the Netflix series Tiger King was still somehow America's biggest celebrity strange times. 01:32.194 --> 01:34.618 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that you enjoy this classic episode. 01:50.950 --> 01:56.478 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess this week hails from Southern California and now makes his home in Portland, Oregon. 01:57.520 --> 02:13.684 [SPEAKER_00]: John Craigie has turned in over a decade of hard work on the club circuit, building a hard one fan base for his heartfelt yet tongue-in-cheek folk music that some have described as the love child of John Prime and Mitch Headbrook. 02:13.664 --> 02:23.214 [SPEAKER_00]: He's built his audience, playing in venues as varied as how shows, to sold out amplifiers, to burning man to the Oregon country fair. 02:24.035 --> 02:29.381 [SPEAKER_00]: It's taken a lot of shoe leather to get his music to the people, so he's a man after my own heart. 02:30.322 --> 02:40.853 [SPEAKER_00]: His music is a grassroots favorite on independent music radio stations across the country, including K-PIG, K-R-F-C, and W-U-M-B in Boston. 02:40.833 --> 02:46.142 [SPEAKER_00]: He's toured with the avit brothers, Sean Colvin, James McMurtry, and many others. 02:46.583 --> 02:58.203 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, he was hand-selected by Beach Folk Phenomenon Jack Johnson to open a tour of amphitheaters in 2017, which brought his cult favorite music to a much wider audience. 02:59.265 --> 03:06.537 [SPEAKER_00]: Rolling Stone has written of him, it's hard to immerse yourself in one of his albums and not emerge elated. 03:06.517 --> 03:13.004 [SPEAKER_00]: And glide magazine has said that his new album, Asterix the Universe, happens to be one of his best records yet. 03:13.685 --> 03:26.518 [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, no depression, the Journal of Roach music, calls his latest effort a soft dreamy place to come to, and for many weary and heavy-hearted listeners, the album might be exactly what they need. 03:27.559 --> 03:31.984 [SPEAKER_00]: John and I caught up on the phone a few weeks ago to talk about his journey so far. 03:38.393 --> 03:40.755 [SPEAKER_00]: John, thanks for being on the working songwriter. 03:41.997 --> 03:48.764 [SPEAKER_00]: Before you went down the road, the ignominious road that I've chosen as well as a singer songwriter, as a troubadour. 03:49.525 --> 03:54.770 [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of dip your toe into a band where we're kind of a rock band world in college and out of college. 03:54.790 --> 03:58.794 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you describe your start in music? 03:58.814 --> 04:02.678 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you know what I was in high school, growing up in Los Angeles. 04:03.279 --> 04:08.164 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a pretty square community I was in, 04:09.055 --> 04:29.586 [SPEAKER_01]: a common thing, I'd like, I talked to other people who had friends who were playing music and dads who were jammed and campfires and stuff, but in my community was strangely enough, there wasn't a single player, so when I got my guitar on 16, it was very isolating that and didn't really know what to do or how to even go about music. 04:29.626 --> 04:37.999 [SPEAKER_01]: So, going to college and Santa Cruz, all of a sudden, I'm surrounded by basically everyone who everyone had a guitar 04:38.485 --> 05:07.277 [SPEAKER_01]: that really helps me kind of understand that nature of music you know in my high school time was just like guy on the edge of his bed, playing Green Day and Pearl Jam songs you know and imagining sort of some sort of rock and roll fantasy but you get Santa Cruz, all the sudden there's late night jams and dorm rooms and woods woods and things like that and so yeah I formed a couple of different musical groups there and then by the end of college 05:07.544 --> 05:14.418 [SPEAKER_01]: We were called Pond Rock at the time and it was pretty spaced out like, you know, living room, show kind of vibe. 05:14.698 --> 05:15.880 [SPEAKER_01]: But I loved that. 05:15.941 --> 05:17.363 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you ever dabble to any of that. 05:17.383 --> 05:27.463 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was a good way to kind of like push yourself in the realms of performance and, you know, sort of songwriting, I guess, and song structure. 05:27.483 --> 05:29.367 [SPEAKER_00]: You mean the jam world? 05:30.173 --> 05:30.914 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:31.074 --> 05:34.218 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I really have never dipped my toe in it. 05:34.279 --> 05:37.683 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just because I, you know, I never ran into it culturally too much. 05:37.743 --> 05:55.407 [SPEAKER_00]: I think if you're in California in your early 20s, I mean, if I had been in California my early 20s, I would have, what do you think that mentality or that sort of creative milieu brings to songwriting that's different from just like the traditional folk and singer songwriter worlds? 05:55.427 --> 05:58.932 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, one thing that I think helped 05:59.401 --> 06:17.197 [SPEAKER_01]: At that time, I definitely was writing a lot with the audience in mind, you know, as a Jan Band, you know, it's not something, you know, art sort of art people were listening to was like fish and the dead and and things that, you know, we're so popular amongst like sort of live crowds. 06:17.317 --> 06:24.463 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I remember thinking a lot about the audience when I was writing these songs and then it got me out of my head a little bit. 06:24.483 --> 06:28.767 [SPEAKER_01]: So then when I started writing 06:29.287 --> 06:31.970 [SPEAKER_01]: not necessarily that was hitting in front of me, but that was listening. 06:32.451 --> 06:37.977 [SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to, you know, writing may be like two inside or something that would be hard to connect with. 06:38.838 --> 06:41.801 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, I think that's what that did for me. 06:41.881 --> 06:59.040 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know exactly that does it for everybody else, but I remember thinking that a lot as I would, you know, be in these hot sweaty living rooms or underground, you know, basements or whatever in the stand band, really looking out at the crowd 06:59.324 --> 07:02.452 [SPEAKER_01]: entertaining, connecting, moving them in a way. 07:02.512 --> 07:06.904 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when I started doing both music and the coffee shops, it was a very different way. 07:07.084 --> 07:12.017 [SPEAKER_01]: But I remember, you know, not losing that touch, not getting like two and word that I could. 07:12.841 --> 07:15.185 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we'll forget that they are there. 07:15.405 --> 07:16.587 [SPEAKER_01]: We're here to like share together. 07:17.248 --> 07:17.789 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 07:18.189 --> 07:25.441 [SPEAKER_00]: And the folk music world can kind of go sometimes when it goes wrong, like radically in the opposite direction where it's kind of a badge of pride. 07:26.022 --> 07:32.612 [SPEAKER_00]: If it's completely quiet when you play and no one's connecting with it because it's like, well, maybe you just didn't fucking understand me, man. 07:33.794 --> 07:35.156 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 07:35.176 --> 07:35.737 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're right. 07:35.757 --> 07:38.341 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all that the folk world is a much more of a battleground. 07:38.361 --> 07:40.384 [SPEAKER_01]: The Jan Dan was very easy, you know, 07:40.752 --> 07:52.281 [SPEAKER_01]: it was you just jam that a major chord and your home you know as on the organ over there wailing and you're good but getting getting out there as a solo and being that naked man that was something you know 07:52.531 --> 07:53.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:53.272 --> 08:01.122 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you mentioned kind of coming from a sort of a square-ish community in Los Angeles, dare I say maybe kind of culturally conservative. 08:01.843 --> 08:10.253 [SPEAKER_00]: What did the people back home even family think when you said to him, hey, I've been to college, but now I'm going to be a troubadour. 08:10.273 --> 08:13.397 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, were people in your in your life supportive of that? 08:13.457 --> 08:14.258 [SPEAKER_00]: Were they worried? 08:14.819 --> 08:15.380 [SPEAKER_00]: How did that go? 08:16.521 --> 08:17.322 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely not. 08:18.424 --> 08:20.226 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, it's a 08:20.594 --> 08:37.661 [SPEAKER_01]: My folks are great, but you have very working class, non-artistic, and very much that life is about getting the work done and family setting up the stability and comfort and protection for your home and family. 08:37.781 --> 08:45.994 [SPEAKER_01]: And pursuing sort of frivolous desires will only bring trouble. 08:46.379 --> 08:59.138 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I think the only thing was that I never had much promise as a intellect or a, you know, sort of someone who was, I never was good at school and I never like showed any promise and sports. 08:59.158 --> 09:05.447 [SPEAKER_01]: So they weren't surprised probably, but they definitely wanted me to stop doing it. 09:05.668 --> 09:13.399 [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, my, like success was such a slow ride that it took a long time for them to sort of come around. 09:14.122 --> 09:23.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and the ultimate irony, though, is if you're doing this job in a certain way, I mean, it is a very working-class lifestyle. 09:23.159 --> 09:25.463 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're working in bars, basically. 09:25.483 --> 09:34.780 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, I've had some time to kind of reflect over the strange COVID times, and I think, you know, at the end of the day, what I really do is I'm like a, 09:35.418 --> 09:36.580 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a bar worker. 09:36.620 --> 09:41.727 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm the bar worker that gets to go up on stage and maybe make a little bit of a bigger paycheck. 09:41.807 --> 09:43.790 [SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, I just go into bars. 09:43.830 --> 09:52.263 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, night and sing, and I drive the minivan there, myself, and you know, book the hotel rooms myself, and all that, and it is kind of a working class thing. 09:53.504 --> 09:54.726 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, well, that's what's funny. 09:54.746 --> 10:04.260 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember one time my mother and I have a conversation, I think someone in my age had just gotten laid off or something, and I was trying to explain, 10:04.763 --> 10:32.526 [SPEAKER_01]: how I couldn't really be fired, you know, there was, there's no like president of music that will come along, you know, you could, if you suck in this job, you're not going to get fired, you might not get the game, but you know, it was something that I think I was taking some pride in the fact that like, I have the job, there's job security, like there's no, I don't have a boss, I can't get fired, but I think I think sometimes parents or people from that generation, that's why it's hard for them in the arts because they look at you and they're just like, 10:32.945 --> 10:34.907 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no knowing if you're good or not. 10:34.927 --> 10:40.713 [SPEAKER_01]: Like if I haven't be fired for my accounting job, then you can at least assume that I probably don't stock at accounting. 10:40.753 --> 10:41.894 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean? 10:41.914 --> 10:47.940 [SPEAKER_01]: But as a musician, I could stock and still be touring and playing coffee shops and bars. 10:47.960 --> 10:52.144 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what's sort of funny about how that generation views it. 10:52.384 --> 10:54.446 [SPEAKER_01]: There's really no, they didn't know how to quantify it. 10:55.487 --> 10:58.290 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether I was like good or bad. 10:58.330 --> 10:59.031 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, you're right. 10:59.071 --> 10:59.391 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, 10:59.573 --> 11:02.737 [SPEAKER_01]: I was grinding it out for years and years. 11:03.858 --> 11:19.757 [SPEAKER_00]: Was there a particular point where or like a particular gig you had or a friend at work listening to the music and mentioning to them was there a point when they kind of got like oh he's not completely off the rails here he sees something that we don't and he's actually moving towards it. 11:21.139 --> 11:28.247 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it was a couple little things you know again with my folks they're so out of the they're 11:28.700 --> 11:32.866 [SPEAKER_01]: They also had a hard, you know, everyone quantifies musicals to text differently as you know this. 11:32.946 --> 11:36.191 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you'll have some friends who are like, oh, I heard you on the radio this weekend. 11:36.652 --> 11:37.313 [SPEAKER_01]: Now you've made it. 11:37.574 --> 11:41.439 [SPEAKER_01]: Other friends who are like, you know, I, you open for Jack Johnson. 11:41.459 --> 11:43.963 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you know, everyone has a different, you know, sort of qualifier. 11:44.003 --> 11:54.319 [SPEAKER_01]: I think for my parents, it was like, if I wasn't on Jay Leno or, you know, like, on the cover the L.A. time, they wouldn't really know how to quantify it, but, um, 11:54.670 --> 11:58.557 [SPEAKER_01]: about three summers ago, I did a run opening for Jack Johnson. 11:58.577 --> 12:09.476 [SPEAKER_01]: We played the Santa Barbara Bowl, and they came that came out to it, and of course the irony of that was that that was like a very like non-normal gig for me. 12:09.496 --> 12:17.129 [SPEAKER_01]: It was you know a huge crowd, and but they saw that show it went well, Jack, you know, was there, you can be giving the blessing. 12:17.330 --> 12:19.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it seemed like after ever since that night, 12:20.388 --> 12:27.657 [SPEAKER_01]: They stopped bugging me about they don't I don't know they I don't love them ever love it But they stopped kind of worrying about me. 12:27.717 --> 12:30.080 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's a good thing. 12:30.200 --> 12:35.527 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good thing So how did you go from kind of like that that jam world to deciding? 12:35.948 --> 12:40.794 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of want to strike out on my own did it just kind of happen slowly or did you have an epiphany and think man? 12:41.355 --> 12:41.995 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna do this. 12:42.656 --> 12:48.003 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I know how to find my voice in a different way Yeah, you know, it wasn't that slow actually. 12:48.043 --> 12:48.724 [SPEAKER_01]: I was always 12:49.565 --> 12:58.676 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, writing songs by myself and working on the songwriting, always like a big, you know, Dylan Guy, you know, Greg Brown, John Prime Guy. 12:58.736 --> 13:01.980 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but that was so much scarier and harder to do. 13:02.020 --> 13:06.065 [SPEAKER_01]: And at my time in Santa Cruz, that didn't, there wasn't really a market for that. 13:06.966 --> 13:12.112 [SPEAKER_01]: The Jamping was easy, you know, there were, you know, any night, any given night, there was some bar was having that. 13:12.773 --> 13:19.521 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I kind of got thrown into the Jamping just because I really wanted to play 13:19.906 --> 13:36.383 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was right around when the, when Obrother were our Fowl, the film came out, and the soundtrack came out, and names like Gillian Welch, and Steve Earl, and things that I hadn't heard before were really starting to come up in conversation. 13:36.443 --> 13:42.189 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember my jam band, Pond Rock, we had an opening band that was a bluegrass band, old-timey bluegrass band. 13:42.269 --> 13:47.535 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember looking out at the crowd, and I was like, oh, jam music's on its way out. 13:47.695 --> 13:49.677 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what's from one. 13:49.960 --> 13:54.184 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's literally hardly strictly bluegrass, the festival started getting traction in Bay Area. 13:54.845 --> 14:01.472 [SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, it just things started to come up where people actually were wanting more of that songwriter guy. 14:02.113 --> 14:05.256 [SPEAKER_01]: And so coffee shops were having more songwriter nights. 14:05.276 --> 14:06.337 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just started doing it. 14:07.078 --> 14:17.689 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think just by circumstance of people moving away and things like that, the Jan Bandai and I didn't feel any desire to go back to that. 14:17.973 --> 14:32.370 [SPEAKER_01]: The ability and the main thing for me, too, was be able to, with my songwriting, I was able to tell stories in between the songs because there was a more attentive audience, which I didn't get to do for the jamban, and that was, I think from there on it just was very much my calling. 14:32.958 --> 14:45.179 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so that like one of one of your hallmarks is your ability to you have a show that's sort of a fusion of songwriting and these songs that you tell in between. 14:45.239 --> 14:55.337 [SPEAKER_00]: Where did you come up with that kind of rise out of the desire to be able to connect with an audience like you were talking about earlier with the jam band thing that you learned? 14:56.397 --> 15:23.417 [SPEAKER_01]: yeah i mean and for me too i was i was a storyteller long before i was a musician as a child i was class clown slash you know sort of lunch lunch time clown slash you know after school cloud i was the guy that was the funny kid and i put a lot of work into that because i didn't have much else going for me you know it's kind of funny looking i wasn't good at sports wasn't going to school but i you know i knew the the joke was there and 15:24.089 --> 15:25.290 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be survival too. 15:25.491 --> 15:27.553 [SPEAKER_01]: I was kind of a scrawny kid to get picked on. 15:28.174 --> 15:38.607 [SPEAKER_01]: But the moment you were sort of seen as the comedian, they would let you out, they wouldn't kill you because they ever want to like a funny guy around. 15:38.687 --> 15:41.210 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was a survival technique. 15:41.831 --> 15:49.280 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a trade in the world of elementary school and near high, it was something I was using to sort of get by. 15:50.421 --> 15:51.683 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I always had that. 15:52.304 --> 16:02.101 [SPEAKER_01]: Now growing up in like the late 90s, you know, music was very, well, all through the 90s, musical sort of very, like, was sort of a serious thing, especially starting with their modern Pearl Jam. 16:03.182 --> 16:06.929 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would go to those kind of shows and, you know, no one said anything. 16:07.550 --> 16:15.303 [SPEAKER_01]: If anything, maybe a hello Los Angeles, but so I never associated with the two, but I saw our little Guthrie age 19, I think. 16:16.345 --> 16:18.328 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was my first indicator of 16:18.747 --> 16:20.490 [SPEAKER_01]: that you could combine the two things. 16:20.510 --> 16:26.179 [SPEAKER_01]: That you could still be, because there was, well, there was like Adam Danler and part of the Tomcords, you know? 16:26.540 --> 16:26.740 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 16:28.163 --> 16:29.265 [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't want to be that. 16:29.806 --> 16:41.325 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it wasn't until I saw people like Arlo Dr. Todd Snyder, Greg Brown, that I realized that you could still be considered a serious musician and also, you know, tell stories and be humorous. 16:41.345 --> 16:43.408 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was a big eye opening thing for me. 16:43.428 --> 16:44.991 [SPEAKER_01]: But it came back and very naturally to me. 16:45.393 --> 16:49.899 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you see any of those guys, or did you see like a Todd Snyder show early on at all? 16:51.040 --> 16:54.885 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yet, Arlo was the one that I was the first one I saw in Santa Cruz and moved there. 16:55.525 --> 17:03.135 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, because of the station, I don't know if you know Kate K. Pig and Santa Cruz, but they were putting on those kind of shows. 17:03.155 --> 17:04.016 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a kind of music. 17:04.036 --> 17:06.679 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know about it as a kid, because in LA, they didn't. 17:07.160 --> 17:09.983 [SPEAKER_01]: There wasn't like a cool Americana station. 17:10.756 --> 17:13.280 [SPEAKER_01]: I started, so then I just really got, I drove in deep. 17:13.300 --> 17:16.625 [SPEAKER_01]: So I saw, yeah, Todd, I saw Dan burn. 17:16.645 --> 17:23.134 [SPEAKER_01]: If you know Dan, great brown, a lot of Wayne Wright, all these guys that, that were doing a version of that. 17:23.936 --> 17:27.942 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I just, I sort of became my, my teachers. 17:28.242 --> 17:32.308 [SPEAKER_01]: I just started to really, you know, follow those guys around, these are true. 17:32.407 --> 17:36.071 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Todd, I've seen a couple of his shows. 17:36.271 --> 17:40.676 [SPEAKER_00]: I first saw him, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, and it blew my mind in the same way. 17:41.277 --> 17:49.847 [SPEAKER_00]: And it really, I think if it's done right, like when Todd does it, I think it actually makes the serious moments in his show more serious. 17:50.708 --> 17:57.115 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you can bring levity in between, people really, they almost like, learned to trust you, you know what I mean? 17:57.535 --> 18:00.979 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's very well said, you know, 18:01.533 --> 18:06.641 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, they, well, the story's only draws them in, so then they really, they want to listen for what you're saying. 18:07.302 --> 18:07.742 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're right. 18:07.802 --> 18:09.825 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're, you're just, you're appearing more human. 18:10.426 --> 18:13.150 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're a total clown, it's, you know, then, then you might lose them. 18:13.190 --> 18:21.823 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're, ideally, what, and what all these guys were doing was just, you know, talking about their human experiences and showing the humor, usually within the tragedy. 18:22.484 --> 18:24.407 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and then, you're right. 18:24.447 --> 18:31.017 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, when, and that was always for me, like, the, the things that would always hit me the most, 18:31.317 --> 18:40.687 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Pat and I was well, there were certain comedians that I listened to in the kid that I always wanted them to sort of touch that real spot, you know. 18:41.347 --> 18:46.853 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think it also, it helps get people's attention. 18:46.873 --> 18:53.400 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there definitely is a thing in the culture now and I feel this when I get on stage and it's an audience, it's not familiar with my work. 18:54.121 --> 18:59.046 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a very understandable feeling in the culture of just like, oh man. 18:59.026 --> 18:59.927 [SPEAKER_00]: Here we go. 18:59.947 --> 19:11.103 [SPEAKER_00]: I got to listen to 30 minutes of another white dude with an acoustic guitar, you know what I mean and yeah I totally get that and I you know I use a fair amount of humor in my show, especially if it's gonna be an audience. 19:11.143 --> 19:18.613 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not too familiar with me Just to let them know like man This isn't gonna be that self-serious thing that you get from most folk shows. 19:18.954 --> 19:25.243 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like we're gonna have a good fucking time here Yeah, well, you know, I you want to break down that wall. 19:25.283 --> 19:28.307 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean that was always again going back to my teenage years 19:28.827 --> 19:31.570 [SPEAKER_01]: I go to these shows and I loved it. 19:31.650 --> 19:32.250 [SPEAKER_01]: I was a kid. 19:32.310 --> 19:43.241 [SPEAKER_01]: I loved seeing Project MLF scene third eye blind or whatever, but I never felt like I was like, I felt, I knew they were playing a show on. 19:43.522 --> 19:45.904 [SPEAKER_01]: I never felt like I was connecting with them on a personal level. 19:46.645 --> 19:56.134 [SPEAKER_01]: And once I saw these guys who were just up there with their guitar, but showing me, yeah, that it wasn't gonna be like this brooding, 19:56.468 --> 20:06.158 [SPEAKER_01]: sort of untouchable thing that it was going to be something that, you know, that felt familiar and they didn't take themselves too seriously, it allowed me then to sort of. 20:06.425 --> 20:08.868 [SPEAKER_01]: taking the station as I wanted to use that makes sense. 20:08.888 --> 20:09.248 [SPEAKER_00]: It does. 20:10.390 --> 20:11.952 [SPEAKER_00]: How did you progress through the period? 20:12.012 --> 20:28.872 [SPEAKER_00]: So you kind of, that the bands that you were in, they kind of die in natural death, you start this new artistic voice that we've been talking about here, how did it get from open mics at coffee shops to, hey, I'm getting ready to put together an album. 20:28.912 --> 20:33.377 [SPEAKER_00]: I might put a tour together and leave town and take this to other places. 20:33.357 --> 20:37.723 [SPEAKER_00]: how did you get it to a place where it was more than just something casually that you were doing? 20:39.185 --> 20:42.330 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, so much slower than it should have. 20:42.730 --> 20:54.787 [SPEAKER_01]: And whatever, he's like young guys and young women come to my merch table and wanted advice, I always have to tell them that to not do it like I did, even though I'm very happy with my progression. 20:55.308 --> 21:01.677 [SPEAKER_01]: I was very, like, I wasn't very confident in what I was doing, like I said, I didn't come from a place that 21:02.247 --> 21:08.833 [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I was destined for greatness and so I took it very slow and I also didn't know what I was doing. 21:08.853 --> 21:31.292 [SPEAKER_01]: I had no agent for a long time So the first couple years I would just play I knew I needed to make some money because I wanted to not have to work in 95 So I was doing like a lot of bar and coffee shop gigs that We're not very like listening, but you know you'd get that $300 You know like winery gig or something and So and then I started to realize that every now and then I would get that 21:31.525 --> 21:59.355 [SPEAKER_01]: that concert series sort of the the the the one of you like I can pay you 50 bucks but there's going to be 30 people they're going to listen they're all going to buy your seat so then it was a matter of kind of seeking those out and knowing that I could only do maybe one or two those a week if I was going to survive but uh and so slowly patty knows but I do remember a moment where I really had to stay to myself once I started realizing that people were coming for a certain thing the storytelling there their originals 21:59.909 --> 22:14.245 [SPEAKER_01]: I needed to sort of cut myself off from sort of the drug that was like the, and I wouldn't even say high pain, but I would say steady pain, bargic, I had to just tell myself, okay, no more of those. 22:14.666 --> 22:20.472 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter if you make 50 or nothing, if the crowd's listening, you'll get by. 22:20.632 --> 22:29.342 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, but that, that took probably all of that took about five years for me to kind of really chisel that down. 22:29.525 --> 22:30.967 [SPEAKER_01]: then everything started moving forward. 22:31.908 --> 22:34.090 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, and how did things move forward for you there? 22:35.372 --> 22:44.522 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I just started to go on in the fan base because I started delivering a consistent show because what was happening in those five years is that someone would see one of those like quiet sit down shows. 22:45.383 --> 22:52.371 [SPEAKER_01]: And then next time I came to town, I'm playing at a loud bar and I'm playing covers and not doing the storytelling. 22:52.391 --> 22:54.914 [SPEAKER_01]: And they come to that, they go, ah, forget it, I guess. 22:54.934 --> 22:59.059 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, 22:59.849 --> 23:03.133 [SPEAKER_01]: I was the sabotage man, I think, unbeknownst to me. 23:03.153 --> 23:09.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Until I started getting some emails and things like that, some people, you know, nicely sane. 23:09.280 --> 23:11.623 [SPEAKER_01]: I had really wished it was like this other thing. 23:11.944 --> 23:16.169 [SPEAKER_01]: Even though, was weird too, because the values were always straight. 23:16.189 --> 23:21.836 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, they'd say, like, look, I would gladly pay the $5 to sit in that woman's living room. 23:22.396 --> 23:23.317 [SPEAKER_01]: And here you do that thing. 23:24.339 --> 23:27.122 [SPEAKER_01]: So, once I started just making sure 23:27.372 --> 23:42.706 [SPEAKER_01]: I gave a consistent show every time, because that's the thing that you don't have to do so much you don't have to control over it, but if you can take control over the things that you can and you can consistently deliver a good show, then that's what it's going to start to build up. 23:42.726 --> 23:55.658 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just started noticing that I would sell out the sort of 30 person living in things 23:56.009 --> 24:01.639 [SPEAKER_01]: If I gave the right show and always was fresh enough yet familiar enough, that's how it started to grow. 24:01.700 --> 24:02.842 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's still very slowly. 24:02.902 --> 24:05.707 [SPEAKER_01]: But this during this time, I love that. 24:06.328 --> 24:07.570 [SPEAKER_01]: Each show didn't matter. 24:07.650 --> 24:09.033 [SPEAKER_01]: It was 30 or 600. 24:09.113 --> 24:12.820 [SPEAKER_01]: If it was what I wanted to do, then I was into it. 24:13.289 --> 24:19.575 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you say put on a consistent show, does that mean, how do you approach that in-between stuff? 24:19.595 --> 24:24.500 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you sit down and do you write out these anecdotes and stories that you want to do? 24:24.580 --> 24:31.667 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you speak them out over a course of a period of time and they kind of reach a final state eventually? 24:31.947 --> 24:33.549 [SPEAKER_00]: Are they always changing? 24:33.909 --> 24:34.650 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you approach that? 24:35.791 --> 24:37.292 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's funny. 24:37.553 --> 24:42.958 [SPEAKER_01]: So with the stories, they're not like, I think sometimes you will think it's completely off the cuff. 24:43.411 --> 24:46.114 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's definitely not my style. 24:46.174 --> 24:47.815 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really an improviser. 24:47.935 --> 24:51.899 [SPEAKER_01]: What will happen usually is a thing will happen within my life. 24:52.860 --> 24:54.902 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say, this is interesting. 24:55.402 --> 24:56.904 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'll try to tell this on page tomorrow. 24:57.764 --> 25:00.547 [SPEAKER_01]: And I will, and it'll either connect or it won't. 25:00.907 --> 25:03.690 [SPEAKER_01]: Either connect, then I will continue to tell it. 25:03.790 --> 25:12.338 [SPEAKER_01]: And for me storytelling is always like, I think that has to be like worked out in front of people. 25:12.689 --> 25:20.277 [SPEAKER_01]: There have been times where I've thought, oh, I have a funny, like, concept and premise and I'll be driving and all, like, tell it to all, like, speak it to myself. 25:20.357 --> 25:23.740 [SPEAKER_01]: But you never know, because there's no, there's no timing there. 25:23.760 --> 25:26.723 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no pause for audience reaction. 25:27.284 --> 25:32.829 [SPEAKER_01]: So really, everything I'm doing each night is is sort of the story that's growing. 25:33.630 --> 25:38.275 [SPEAKER_01]: And I always tend to, you know, not want to tell the same story to the same audience. 25:38.295 --> 25:41.498 [SPEAKER_01]: So I take notes after each show. 25:41.748 --> 25:45.554 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I have a notebook that I travel with, so then when I'm back in Boston again, I'll check. 25:46.075 --> 25:47.577 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, what did I do in Boston last time? 25:48.279 --> 25:48.659 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 25:48.960 --> 25:51.664 [SPEAKER_01]: But also to think to me, the stories have their cycles. 25:51.684 --> 25:54.369 [SPEAKER_01]: I tell them, you know, sort of, for a tour, and then I could semi-attire them. 25:55.851 --> 26:00.779 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, when you're dealing with something that's a story behind a song, that can be tricky. 26:01.340 --> 26:04.886 [SPEAKER_01]: I love our look after you, but, you know, I think I heard like the motorcycle. 26:04.926 --> 26:07.570 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know he has that, the motorcycle song. 26:08.275 --> 26:32.447 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't know, I don't want a pickle, just want a rat on the mood, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's a very silly song but he's sort of famously known for like expanding upon what that means and it's a really sort of funny story and but I think he's probably been telling it for 40 years or so and that's fine and it don't know what it seems to complain. 26:32.647 --> 26:37.894 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a lot harder on myself that I 26:38.313 --> 26:43.587 [SPEAKER_01]: Certain things though, if it's really important, then I will give a version of that. 26:43.687 --> 26:49.302 [SPEAKER_01]: But it would drive me crazy to tell like the same story each night, you know, for a day, I couldn't do it. 26:49.332 --> 27:18.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I find I end up retiring in between stories, both the regions that you're talking about, you know, you don't want to tell it to the same audience, but also I find, and maybe you have found a similar thing, I find if I have something that is funny and really working and it kind of reaches its final state, it then has like a shelf life for me of like three to six months where I can't tell it is good because I've become so confident in telling it that I kind of like 27:18.543 --> 27:23.389 [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of reaches a peak and then it all I can say is it's not ripe anymore after that. 27:23.429 --> 27:24.190 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what it is. 27:25.152 --> 27:26.333 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's definitely a sweet spot. 27:26.353 --> 27:31.880 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's those first couple of weeks when you're still getting it really nailing it and that and then. 27:32.882 --> 27:40.311 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's that sweet spot where it's fresh to you and you're in living it, you know, and you're telling it in that same way that you would be excited to tell your friend what happened yesterday. 27:40.752 --> 27:41.092 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 27:41.112 --> 27:48.482 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's that point and you'll see this with like, I don't want to knock anyone, but if you've ever been to like a professional storytellers, 27:48.682 --> 27:51.092 [SPEAKER_01]: convention or threshold storytellers event. 27:51.695 --> 27:57.460 [SPEAKER_01]: People who like have been telling the same story for like 10 years, it feels like a monologue, you know, it's something that they're. 27:57.760 --> 27:58.701 [SPEAKER_01]: like a playday we're in. 27:59.081 --> 27:59.622 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean? 27:59.982 --> 28:15.718 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, yeah, you know what I noticed about when people do that is when they have it down pat, they're telling it and then if the audience reacts in any way that they weren't expecting, they don't, they don't like internalize it and it doesn't change the rest of it because it's not a conversation. 28:15.758 --> 28:20.042 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like an annoyance so that they can get on with the rest of the monologue. 28:20.062 --> 28:20.702 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 28:20.722 --> 28:21.163 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 28:21.183 --> 28:26.468 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be like if you were doing, you know, 28:26.735 --> 28:28.677 [SPEAKER_01]: and somebody like, you know, booed at one part. 28:28.697 --> 28:31.960 [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, wait, that's the part of what's supposed to gas that or cheer that. 28:31.980 --> 28:34.082 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I never want to get to that moment. 28:34.342 --> 28:38.926 [SPEAKER_01]: And there, I think there are some times where I'll feel that. 28:38.986 --> 28:43.210 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just really always want to challenge myself. 28:43.511 --> 28:46.594 [SPEAKER_01]: And I always referenced this silly moment from when I was 17. 28:46.614 --> 28:55.662 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's embarrassing, but I saw third eye blind two nights in a row that came through Los Angeles and played like the 28:56.047 --> 29:24.400 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean my friend drove to Irvine the next night and saw them and I don't know what we were thinking it's sort of I blind it's not the vehicle dead but we get there and it was the exact same show like verbatim and he was doing some little like interlude between songs but it was you know worth of work and I and at the time it really disappointed me now look I read later that they had done like a 200 day like nonstop tour and they were probably just like 29:24.802 --> 29:50.522 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'd lost their mind and I don't want to knock them or anything, but it embedded in my head to like, if I ever became, you know, someone who played in front of crowds, I was aware how this playing that was, and I'm not the kind of artist where people are, you know, going from time to time, but it happened sometimes where someone will do three nights in a row or whatever, and I tease them all the time because they may have to hear a similar version of a story, but I always want to make sure that I'm not. 29:51.076 --> 29:52.490 [SPEAKER_01]: just like they're citing something. 29:52.530 --> 29:54.893 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to I'm here to tell these people what happens 29:55.379 --> 29:57.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really, I struggle with that. 29:58.102 --> 30:20.104 [SPEAKER_00]: When I'm willing on my game, the shows are very night tonight, but man, if it has been a longer tour or if I've just been busy with other aspects of life and I haven't been able to write anything else, like I can rip off 10 days in a row where the show, you could probably put it on a grid in a logic session and it would just line up like exactly the same. 30:20.124 --> 30:20.325 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 30:21.145 --> 30:22.787 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's you, I think, too, of how, like, 30:23.172 --> 30:35.788 [SPEAKER_01]: How sweet you're connecting with your audience when it's one of those nights and you're there with the audience you're adding things you're you're you're like when I tour with Like my base player or something show she will notice that she'll say oh tonight was great. 30:35.808 --> 30:41.175 [SPEAKER_01]: You really Were able to like stretch that that bit out a little bit because the crowd was good. 30:41.195 --> 30:49.927 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I was doing those jack Johnson shows again, no disrespect to those crowds, but when you're doing 18,000 people There's no way I'm going to be able to like buy off of them. 30:49.947 --> 30:51.829 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's an insane ocean 30:52.197 --> 30:52.919 [SPEAKER_01]: of energy. 30:52.959 --> 30:56.267 [SPEAKER_01]: And those shows I was definitely had to kind of go up there. 30:56.768 --> 31:04.266 [SPEAKER_01]: Also because it was sort of distracting, I had to focus and I was really delivering a lot more of like you were saying, those sort of like calculated stories with. 31:04.567 --> 31:09.738 [SPEAKER_01]: with no griff raft, just like tell the thing that happened, play the song, and let's get the hell out of here. 31:09.838 --> 31:23.706 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, you know, the thing I haven't done a ton of gigs that have been that big, but sometimes when I have, you know, gotten on like, some sort of tour where I'm going to be playing to a lot more people, a couple thousand people, and it's going to be outside, you know. 31:23.686 --> 31:52.281 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm playing maybe sometimes while the sun is still up I have to really remind myself like I'll get off stage and I'll be like damn I didn't really connect there, but if there's just like 5% of that audience that is listening That's still more people than would come to one of my shows anyway What I mean, yeah, it's you really do have to like focus in and just kind of do your show in that situation and just trust That it is reaching people because it is yeah, yeah, you're right. 31:52.301 --> 31:53.102 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean that's the thing that 31:53.605 --> 32:06.947 [SPEAKER_01]: that Jack said to me, you know, when he offered me the gorge, you know, I told him that he was out of his mind, you know, that, because he was he had really tapped into this live album of mine that's recorded here in Portland and Mississippi Studios to about 160 people or so. 32:07.688 --> 32:10.673 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, gorge is like 22,000 or something. 32:10.694 --> 32:14.320 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I said, you know, what do you, what would you expect me to do there? 32:14.440 --> 32:15.582 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, I want you to do your thing, man. 32:15.622 --> 32:17.605 [SPEAKER_01]: He tells you stories just like the live album. 32:18.007 --> 32:19.669 [SPEAKER_01]: And I told him, I said, that's to 160. 32:19.709 --> 32:21.612 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, well, just think of it this way. 32:21.632 --> 32:25.657 [SPEAKER_01]: If 1% of the Gorge audience is listening, that's still more than you're out there. 32:25.677 --> 32:29.081 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, well, thank you for that. 32:29.101 --> 32:29.542 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a big thing. 32:29.562 --> 32:34.568 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, that 1% might be scattered, you know, sprinkled like salt throughout the crowd. 32:34.609 --> 32:35.350 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're right. 32:35.390 --> 32:37.332 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to use a lot of trust. 32:37.352 --> 32:38.874 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, you know that's happening. 32:38.894 --> 32:42.719 [SPEAKER_01]: You find out later, because those people come up to you like your smaller shows and say, oh, I saw you at this thing. 32:42.759 --> 32:47.305 [SPEAKER_01]: But it just really made me realize that I never want to strive 32:47.656 --> 32:57.345 [SPEAKER_01]: for that world and to me, the best shows are when we're all together and I can really feel everyone in the crowd and I can have that conversation. 33:17.744 --> 33:26.618 [SPEAKER_00]: There's something about John and his spirit and attitude that reminds me in the best way of the American beat poets of the 1950s and 60s. 33:27.660 --> 33:37.035 [SPEAKER_00]: A willingness to hit the open road, a devil-made care attitude towards well-laid plans, a rise sensibility about the impermanence of life. 33:37.015 --> 33:49.658 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a wonderful passage by Kenneth Rex Roth, a forerunner to the beat poets that echoes the same sardonic take on existence from his poem, air and angels. 33:52.304 --> 34:07.326 [SPEAKER_00]: As I watch at the long window, crowds of travelers hurry behind me, rainy darkness blows before me, and the great plain circles taxes to the runway, waits, and then roars off into the thick night. 34:07.306 --> 34:11.735 [SPEAKER_00]: I follow it as it rises through the clouds and levels off under the stars. 34:12.677 --> 34:22.918 [SPEAKER_00]: Stars, darkness, a row of lights, moaning engines, throwing wings, a silver plane over a sea of starlit clouds and rain bound sea. 34:24.029 --> 34:46.662 [SPEAKER_00]: What I am following is a rosy, glowing coal shaped like the body of a woman, rushing southward, a meteor, a fire with the same fire that burns me unseen, here on the whirling earth, amongst bright, busy, incurious faces of hundreds of people who pass me, unaware of the blazing astrophysics of the end of a weekend. 35:01.475 --> 35:10.607 [SPEAKER_00]: When did you make it out of Santa Cruz you're important now, not just to your new home, but when did you start touring the nation more broadly? 35:12.169 --> 35:13.971 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was the first thing I ever did. 35:13.991 --> 35:15.153 [SPEAKER_01]: I was still in Santa Cruz. 35:15.313 --> 35:18.096 [SPEAKER_01]: I started teaching briefly after college. 35:18.176 --> 35:20.279 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a degree in mathematics in Santa Cruz. 35:20.299 --> 35:23.243 [SPEAKER_01]: So I taught math for about a year. 35:23.283 --> 35:26.247 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when I decided I hated that. 35:26.307 --> 35:31.093 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when I decided I got to go for this. 35:31.732 --> 35:49.218 [SPEAKER_01]: right around age 24, and then pretty quickly I couldn't have been in the 4th of 11th century, so I moved up to a town called Yukaya, if you know that, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a many, you know, county, just about two hours, and others, and it's just go very, very like rural and very cheap. 35:49.338 --> 36:00.355 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that helps me kind of, yeah, my rent low, and, and that was sort of those years I was talking about, it kind of, kind of 36:00.588 --> 36:05.514 [SPEAKER_01]: playing bars, coffee shops, and of course every now and then, you know, the house concert. 36:05.914 --> 36:08.317 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so you were at concerts, so you were at that. 36:08.457 --> 36:12.101 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so that part that you would just describe that was all over the place. 36:12.382 --> 36:12.722 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 36:12.762 --> 36:15.405 [SPEAKER_00]: And were you booking the stuff yourself that time? 36:15.545 --> 36:15.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 36:16.626 --> 36:26.798 [SPEAKER_01]: And this was back, you know, not the sound like I'm an old man, but it was back in the day when it was, I'm actually, I don't know how it is now, but, you know, it was just like, you would just call the 36:27.166 --> 36:37.361 [SPEAKER_01]: say can I play, and then they would say, well, you sound like, and you send them your website or your Facebook or whatever, and they'd listen to it, you have to call again to remind them. 36:37.582 --> 36:41.067 [SPEAKER_01]: I usually would, I would notice that if I just call them off, they'd eventually just let me play. 36:41.127 --> 36:43.370 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 36:43.591 --> 36:53.325 [SPEAKER_01]: But then those concerts series would usually come about because, yeah, somebody, the words start to getting around in a very small way, so, you know, someone 36:53.626 --> 36:57.671 [SPEAKER_01]: some sweet lady who did the 30 person thing at her place. 36:57.811 --> 37:00.354 [SPEAKER_01]: She'd find me somehow and do this. 37:00.374 --> 37:01.736 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, look, a whole tour. 37:02.657 --> 37:04.680 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say there's a house concert in Florida. 37:04.700 --> 37:07.263 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that's going to be good. 37:07.323 --> 37:09.085 [SPEAKER_01]: She says she always felt it out. 37:09.846 --> 37:12.049 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll book, I'll drive, what else am I doing? 37:12.069 --> 37:15.053 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would look a whole tour to there. 37:15.253 --> 37:17.476 [SPEAKER_01]: And that might be the most pain gig in the tour, but it might be the fun. 37:17.496 --> 37:19.499 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a long way by another thing. 37:19.519 --> 37:20.680 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I got to a point where 37:21.436 --> 37:29.271 [SPEAKER_01]: I could do a thing where if I was doing bar gigs, but I realized there was a group of people that were coming to the bar that wanted to hear the quietest thing. 37:29.351 --> 37:34.621 [SPEAKER_01]: We would set up a house concert with one of them and just do a $5 or $10 cover. 37:35.242 --> 37:37.446 [SPEAKER_01]: And then from there, keep doing that. 37:37.907 --> 37:39.129 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was very grassroots though. 37:39.149 --> 37:44.018 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was very much just from the help of my foundation from the day one was always there. 38:04.349 --> 38:10.478 [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, I've spent the last 12 years driving around the country in a rented mini van, you know, doing that thing. 38:10.558 --> 38:17.327 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've really found during this COVID time, what's been really cool is I'm like, wow, everyone's got my back. 38:17.447 --> 38:20.632 [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason everyone's got my back is listeners. 38:20.672 --> 38:27.962 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, is because I've probably shaken hands with every one of these freaking people over the course of the last 12 years, you know. 38:27.982 --> 38:29.664 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 38:30.305 --> 38:30.445 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:30.505 --> 38:31.126 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's crucial. 38:31.146 --> 38:31.707 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what. 38:32.041 --> 39:01.626 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that is really, I think in the modern day, that's job security, you know, I mean, whereas if you skyrocket in six months and, you know, you got a bunch of people that are excited that that one song they heard, if you're not, if you don't connect, if you don't deliver or if you disappear for six months, then they'll forget, you know, but if you are part of their, they have stories about the, you know, yeah, shaking your hand, meeting you, running into you, after the health food store, 39:01.673 --> 39:08.566 [SPEAKER_01]: whatever those things, you're part of their story, your story, their story, and your success of their success in a way. 39:08.607 --> 39:17.243 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that, you know, it felt like a rocky movie but in a very, very long drawn out thing. 39:18.185 --> 39:23.175 [SPEAKER_01]: I was joking with the friend about if they ever made a biopic about myself or, you know, some other friends. 39:23.493 --> 39:25.556 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it would be 12 hours longer than the first two hours. 39:25.616 --> 39:27.678 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, man, this guy's still playing coffee shops. 39:27.718 --> 39:31.863 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, whatever we're going to get to those, the gloves, like, oh, that'll happen about the six hour marks. 39:31.903 --> 39:35.788 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I think that, I think it's good, but I love that. 39:35.808 --> 39:45.400 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I wouldn't trade it for anything because, um, you know, for lack of a less cheesy statement, you know, it's really about the journey, you know. 39:45.953 --> 39:46.353 [SPEAKER_00]: it is. 39:47.374 --> 39:53.160 [SPEAKER_00]: You've also made records in a similar kind of organic way. 39:53.460 --> 40:02.709 [SPEAKER_00]: I noticed that you, from what I've read, you tend to work outside of a studio system, you like to make records sometimes in houses, in rooms. 40:02.969 --> 40:03.830 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I getting that right? 40:03.890 --> 40:05.751 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the way that you traditionally work? 40:06.532 --> 40:08.094 [SPEAKER_00]: So what's the reason behind that? 40:08.114 --> 40:12.838 [SPEAKER_00]: And what do you get out of that that you might not get out 40:14.253 --> 40:18.401 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, originally, for me, it was about affordability. 40:18.461 --> 40:21.908 [SPEAKER_01]: I could never afford a studio in the early day. 40:22.348 --> 40:25.294 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had friends who were down to make a record with me. 40:25.354 --> 40:30.724 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would find a guy who had the gear basically approach rules and some mics. 40:31.225 --> 40:36.295 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we would find a space, usually if someone's house that would let us set up. 40:36.747 --> 40:46.662 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the first few ones, they came out fine, but I think we were still kind of playing by studio rules, which is like 11 a.m. to 11 p.m. kind of thing. 40:47.483 --> 40:50.427 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was fine, but it wasn't until I got to meet Todd. 40:50.447 --> 40:53.091 [SPEAKER_01]: I did a couple of opening runs with Todd Snyder. 40:53.131 --> 40:58.399 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said something to me, just really simple, but very wide. 40:58.579 --> 40:59.581 [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about recording. 40:59.641 --> 41:03.987 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, yeah, isn't it weird how, in our career, all of our music is done. 41:04.490 --> 41:07.675 [SPEAKER_01]: at night, starting at 8 p.m., you know, till midnight or whatever. 41:08.416 --> 41:18.911 [SPEAKER_01]: And all of a sudden, now we're supposed to be able to, you know, harness this mojo at 11 a.m. and, and I don't know how to talk to the courts, but that made me realize, like, yeah, what the hell am I doing? 41:18.931 --> 41:33.872 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, from then on, I decided that, you know, the days would go more like, you know, three to three or six to six kind of thing, you know, started starting the afternoon, evening, knowing that things aren't going to really cook, 41:34.207 --> 41:38.632 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there was no studio that was going to be down with those hours. 41:38.652 --> 41:43.938 [SPEAKER_01]: So I needed to find an engineer and a house that was just sort of or time was kind of meaningless. 41:44.258 --> 41:48.042 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's been part of it also just because I wanted everyone to feel very comfortable. 41:49.003 --> 42:00.616 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my favorite musical moments always are those moments like at the after party, at the campfire when everyone's completely uninhibited and just playing together, singing together. 42:00.636 --> 42:03.960 [SPEAKER_01]: And the only way I could think that you could create that 42:04.328 --> 42:13.820 [SPEAKER_01]: would be to get those people together in a place where you could forget that they were microphones and I live you in preferably like they're all living them, you know. 42:14.521 --> 42:16.784 [SPEAKER_00]: Are musicians that you bring in for those sessions? 42:16.884 --> 42:19.868 [SPEAKER_00]: Are they surprised working at that way? 42:21.210 --> 42:25.115 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so, but I think they've seen to be very content with it. 42:25.716 --> 42:26.877 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, 42:27.194 --> 42:33.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm not a person who strives for perfection in those cases, I really want the rawness. 42:33.344 --> 42:36.008 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I never want to do more than six or seven takes. 42:37.130 --> 42:39.494 [SPEAKER_01]: If we get to that point, we just take a break and move on to another song. 42:40.315 --> 42:45.042 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I always tell the engineer, you know, just let it run. 42:45.844 --> 42:54.197 [SPEAKER_01]: If we need to know if it's running, we'll ask you, but we don't need to be like putting that pressure of like, okay, and we're wrote, you know, kind of thing. 42:54.802 --> 42:56.765 [SPEAKER_01]: That's something, and that's probably more for me. 42:56.805 --> 43:10.964 [SPEAKER_01]: I think if people are higher, a lot more professional than I am, and it could probably not get out either way, but for my own sanity and my own enjoyment of it, I need that, and I also, like, for me, the studios are so strange. 43:11.024 --> 43:13.608 [SPEAKER_01]: I love having an audience and live out and think more sense to me. 43:14.309 --> 43:22.480 [SPEAKER_01]: If I can gather enough people in that living room, it'll feel like, you know, a little show, a little house content, and that helps me a lot too. 43:23.017 --> 43:42.561 [SPEAKER_00]: I can get that the only time I made a record that kind of felt like that we didn't exactly work those hours but we did a deal where for cost reasons, me and the band slept at the studio, you know, had all our meals there, all that and I've just been going back over it because I've been thinking about doing like a B-size record or something like that and 43:42.541 --> 43:54.131 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been listening to the stuff from that session and I've been like, man, the stuff from this session is its own little environment in a way that other records have not been, you know, an environment like that. 43:54.552 --> 43:57.014 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, you build up the world, yeah. 43:57.995 --> 44:02.579 [SPEAKER_00]: It just feels like things are cut from the same cloth in a way. 44:02.599 --> 44:11.367 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that you can make records that aren't that that sound good, but there is something really unifying about recording in that way. 44:12.983 --> 44:42.568 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I think well, people have said this up about the record that I've done that way that it all sounds like it just happened in one night and in a way it did, I mean it was maybe stretched over five nights and probably the same for you though, but if you didn't leave that space, you know, if you slept there in eight there, it was really like one long night and you guys really were all, it was one long session as opposed to, you know, like you said, other records that would be stretched over the course a few months, you know, breaks come back, the mic, the mic's get moved, the drum set gets moved, you know, 44:42.785 --> 44:47.930 [SPEAKER_01]: There's only wrong with that, but it's going to lose that feeling of coldness. 44:47.950 --> 44:48.551 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 44:49.232 --> 44:49.812 [SPEAKER_01]: At the moment here. 44:49.973 --> 44:50.193 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 44:50.253 --> 44:52.515 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe it wasn't the same night, but it was the same case of beer. 44:53.456 --> 44:54.517 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 44:54.537 --> 44:55.218 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. 44:55.298 --> 44:55.819 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 44:56.499 --> 44:57.500 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's about it. 44:59.222 --> 45:07.491 [SPEAKER_00]: How has your songwriting process changed or evolved over the last 10 or 15 years, if it has it all? 45:07.891 --> 45:08.132 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 45:08.152 --> 45:09.293 [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose it has evolved. 45:10.314 --> 45:11.475 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a very good question that we think. 45:12.113 --> 45:26.049 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that, the more, yeah, the more comfortable you get with just the more, the more you trust your audience, that they will get you, and that's really liberating. 45:26.290 --> 45:39.505 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there would be moments I think maybe 10 years ago where I would say, I can't say it like that, and not not saying something like offensive, I just need something that maybe was too blunt or 45:40.092 --> 45:49.566 [SPEAKER_01]: to like non-toedic, I guess, and because I hadn't really like, I didn't know my audience and we didn't know me. 45:50.348 --> 46:01.725 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I have developed maybe a little bit more of a comfort in songwriting where now I say what I want to say and I just have that sort of trust that it will be understood. 46:02.646 --> 46:08.395 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's allowed me to be a little bit more blunt and a little bit more, I guess I kind of got over 46:09.218 --> 46:13.103 [SPEAKER_01]: poetry at some point, and I really wanted to be obvious, does that make sense? 46:13.657 --> 46:21.609 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it sounds like what you're describing there is just a voice, a voice whether it's poetic or not or funny or not, like it's a voice and it's so true. 46:21.649 --> 46:39.276 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's, I talked, I did an interview with this podcast with that guy Ian McIe from Minor Threat and Fugazi and I was talking to him about why, I was like, you know, why aren't you creating and releasing more and actually in the interim he has released a little something, but 46:39.256 --> 46:44.481 [SPEAKER_00]: He said to me, well, you know when I was in minor threatened when I was in Fugazi, I knew who I was writing for. 46:44.502 --> 46:48.205 [SPEAKER_00]: He was like, I was at a high school with the people that we were passing out these tapes too. 46:48.225 --> 46:50.628 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I literally knew the people that I was writing for. 46:51.068 --> 46:55.013 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, now I don't know who I'm writing for, so I can't write. 46:55.113 --> 46:56.514 [SPEAKER_00]: And that really hit home for me. 46:56.594 --> 46:59.317 [SPEAKER_00]: And that sounds like the opposite of what you have going on. 46:59.377 --> 47:06.505 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's, it's as if you know when you put out a record, it's almost like you know the people that are going to be there in Chicago for your gig. 47:06.525 --> 47:08.807 [SPEAKER_00]: You know the people that are going to be there in Atlanta, you know? 47:09.327 --> 47:12.150 [SPEAKER_01]: I should say this, what he said, that is actually very true. 47:12.250 --> 47:15.554 [SPEAKER_01]: In the beginning, you have your audience as your friend. 47:15.774 --> 47:20.819 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you can actually like, you can write a song about speed, and then everyone will get it. 47:21.099 --> 47:24.082 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's, that is a mistake that young songwriters make. 47:24.103 --> 47:29.889 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes when they leave their friend group, they're still singing about, they're putting too many inside things in there. 47:30.309 --> 47:33.092 [SPEAKER_01]: And then your new audience is kind of like, we don't know who's deep as we don't get this joke. 47:33.893 --> 47:37.917 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I misspoke a little bit in the sense that, 47:38.285 --> 47:44.774 [SPEAKER_01]: You're right, you then have to, you have to enter into a world where you don't know exactly who's going to be out there. 47:44.874 --> 47:53.887 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that what I meant is that I've been able to be, I think that they understand where I'm coming from more. 47:53.927 --> 47:57.553 [SPEAKER_01]: And so something that I would be worried would be taking the wrong way. 47:58.133 --> 48:01.839 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I feel like a much more confident in my bluntness. 48:01.859 --> 48:04.883 [SPEAKER_01]: But I still have to keep it understandable. 48:05.352 --> 48:08.295 [SPEAKER_01]: But there are also inside jokes that you can reference yourself. 48:08.315 --> 48:11.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can reference a story another time. 48:12.038 --> 48:13.539 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but that's very true. 48:13.699 --> 48:22.667 [SPEAKER_01]: But he said, and that's something I give a nice to younger musicians who talk to me is that, is that, yeah, there is that moment. 48:22.747 --> 48:27.011 [SPEAKER_01]: I joke about this, there's that moment when you're out of show and someone's in the audience that you don't know. 48:27.111 --> 48:30.815 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's weird, you're like, what are you doing here? 48:30.895 --> 48:32.276 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, oh, I just like your music. 48:32.296 --> 48:34.718 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, oh, that's strange. 48:34.985 --> 48:55.474 [SPEAKER_00]: you're just telling your friends to come and your friends come and you're kind of begging them to come and you're pushing them to come and then you need to moment where all of a sudden people are just coming on their own and it's kind of freaky I still remember I got my start playing in Chicago and there's a club there actually I think it was a jam ban club of all things it was called martyrs I don't know why I was playing there yeah yeah yeah but uh 48:55.454 --> 49:22.104 [SPEAKER_00]: So I got this gig and you know, yeah, my 10 or 15 friends who I would do like the open mic night would come out to the gig You know like that type of deal and I remember I was in I was getting like a I don't know a beer or sandwich in the takeout place next door before the gig And I met some people that I didn't know that were coming to the show to hear me and I still have yet to have my mind blown more than that. 49:22.124 --> 49:23.025 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know what I mean? 49:23.085 --> 49:25.107 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very strange 49:25.660 --> 49:33.441 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you realize that there is, um, uh, there's a medium getting your message out there at that point. 49:33.461 --> 49:38.775 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, at that point, I guess, I think they literally heard my songs on my space or something like that. 49:39.380 --> 49:42.684 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. 49:42.704 --> 49:47.469 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk to me a little bit about what it's like you're getting ready to release a new record now. 49:47.829 --> 49:52.995 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it like to release a new record in the age of coronavirus and how you're going about it? 49:53.075 --> 49:55.698 [SPEAKER_00]: And how are you feeling about the whole thing? 49:57.160 --> 49:58.982 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's very easy to do. 49:59.782 --> 50:08.492 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's still up for debate as to whether it's as efficient as being able to do the thing for me is that 50:08.793 --> 50:16.705 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so hard for me to quantify anything in these times because all of my life has always been based around non-stop touring. 50:17.146 --> 50:24.838 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, if anything that happened, that was good in my career, I would just sort of attribute it to the concert touring, whether or not that was actually true. 50:25.339 --> 50:31.488 [SPEAKER_01]: As you know, with music, the way it finds a new person's ears is completely random. 50:31.508 --> 50:36.336 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a million ways that this person hears your music 50:36.552 --> 50:41.880 [SPEAKER_01]: it has nothing to do with something you did, other times it has everything to do with what you did, you know, and all your artwork. 50:42.561 --> 50:52.836 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I was, when it was discussed as to whether or not I should delay the release of this, I was against that just because I hate to delay releases of music. 50:52.876 --> 50:56.902 [SPEAKER_01]: I want everything to be as fresh as it can be as far as just like my own emotions. 50:57.003 --> 51:02.050 [SPEAKER_01]: So ideally, I would love to record something that had to be out the next day, but we all know that doesn't work that way. 51:02.751 --> 51:05.395 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was already, you know, 51:06.168 --> 51:07.991 [SPEAKER_01]: 10 months from when I actually recorded it. 51:09.233 --> 51:11.096 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was happy to put it out. 51:11.757 --> 51:20.670 [SPEAKER_01]: But it does make me sad to not be able to go out there and see the songs and tell the stories behind them, which is really my favorite part of the album release tours. 51:21.632 --> 51:27.321 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's almost like, you know, if you watch a movie and you like a movie, then you go watch it with the audio, like DVD commentary. 51:27.902 --> 51:28.823 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 51:28.843 --> 51:33.370 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and that's kind of what I like, I feel like I'm doing, you know, like during the album tour. 51:33.390 --> 51:34.572 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, you've heard the album. 51:34.855 --> 51:38.123 [SPEAKER_01]: Now here is like what was going on and I have my anecdotes from it. 51:38.966 --> 51:44.480 [SPEAKER_01]: And I really want to give that to the crowd because some songs have some great stories behind them. 51:44.560 --> 51:51.598 [SPEAKER_01]: I think and I know I'll just have to do that later, but I wish I could do it now. 51:51.781 --> 51:56.268 [SPEAKER_00]: I know what you mean though about one, it not wanting to delay a release, it has less to do. 51:56.308 --> 52:15.477 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it has less to do with like the release itself for that album and it has more to do with like my current creative, my current creative desire, like if I'm still waiting on putting out a record and touring behind it, I'm not ready to start 52:15.457 --> 52:27.967 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, basically to start getting ready to make another baby, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not ready to start writing again until uh, the circle is kind of being closed on an earlier creative endeavor, you know? 52:28.588 --> 52:29.871 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's very well said, yeah. 52:30.863 --> 52:36.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, well, John, thanks so much for taking the time to sit down with our, uh, with our podcast. 52:36.310 --> 52:36.931 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate it. 52:36.951 --> 52:39.614 [SPEAKER_00]: Man, I've, I've been following you from afar. 52:39.775 --> 52:42.418 [SPEAKER_00]: We, we work a very similar circuit, uh, the two of us. 52:42.498 --> 52:43.279 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, we did. 52:43.319 --> 52:49.548 [SPEAKER_00]: We got turned on to your music, uh, years ago, and I hope we get to, to cross paths in real life one of these days, brother. 52:50.689 --> 52:51.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, man, you too. 52:51.330 --> 52:52.071 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always a pleasure. 52:52.111 --> 52:57.618 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, your name comes up all the time, uh, when I'm talking to, to my fans and I've always loved you, what you put out. 52:57.718 --> 52:59.841 [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, I hope you can meet some day. 53:00.057 --> 53:02.145 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay brother, good to talk to you. 53:02.566 --> 53:02.927 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 53:07.283 --> 53:10.776 [UNKNOWN]: Take care. 53:17.152 --> 53:19.936 [SPEAKER_00]: That's our show for this week, it was brought to you by Bandzougle. 53:20.477 --> 53:27.808 [SPEAKER_00]: Built by musicians and four musicians, Bandzougle is an all-in-one platform to build a beautiful website for your music. 53:28.409 --> 53:37.303 [SPEAKER_00]: Use promo code TWS, the initials of our podcast TWS to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. 53:37.283 --> 53:44.152 [SPEAKER_00]: John Craigie's latest album is entitled, Astrix The Universe, available everywhere music is sold or streamed. 53:45.093 --> 54:02.835 [SPEAKER_00]: If before we meet again, you sit down to write, please remember, an expensive drug habit is not a song, a compelling Instagram account is not a song, and most importantly, reverb is not a song, so let all that take care of itself, and for you, just keep your eye on the song.