WEBVTT 00:00.031 --> 00:01.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Can we talk 7-ounce? 00:01.133 --> 00:03.276 [SPEAKER_00]: Can we talk about 7-ounce? 00:03.296 --> 00:19.660 [SPEAKER_00]: Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:26.778 --> 00:34.766 [SPEAKER_00]: Brian James Dugin was born prematurely on September 23rd of 1956, though not in the traditional sense. 00:35.586 --> 00:41.692 [SPEAKER_00]: A nurse of the New Hampshire hospital that baby Dugin was attempting to come squalling into didn't want to deal with it. 00:42.493 --> 00:51.842 [SPEAKER_00]: The doctor was late, and because the attending nurse wasn't comfortable doing the delivery herself, she shoved Dugin's head back into the womb, then strapped his mother's legs together. 00:52.883 --> 00:56.346 [SPEAKER_00]: Some would later say that the nurse had the right idea. 00:56.579 --> 00:57.180 [SPEAKER_00]: put it back. 00:58.121 --> 00:59.683 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, it was the wrong idea. 01:00.184 --> 01:11.078 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, those first moments Brian Dugin spent trying to enter the world, using his baby brain as a battering ram, probably had a lot to do with what happened later. 01:11.899 --> 01:14.382 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Dark Topic on your host, Jack Luna. 01:15.244 --> 01:16.565 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a true crime happening. 01:18.067 --> 01:18.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin! 01:24.625 --> 01:30.572 [SPEAKER_00]: Brian Dugin, the second to five children, would be remembered as a major problem through his childhood. 01:31.453 --> 01:34.336 [SPEAKER_00]: As a toddler, he bang his head off of his crib constantly. 01:35.017 --> 01:39.021 [SPEAKER_00]: This being the way he'd learned to get out of an uncomfortable situation. 01:39.902 --> 01:44.708 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a bedwetter, a condition apparently shared by his father, a violent alcoholic. 01:45.649 --> 01:49.553 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin's mother drank too much as well, and was a strict disciplinary. 01:49.617 --> 01:54.994 [SPEAKER_00]: No doubt about it, Dugan took more than a few shots to the head growing up, maybe a thousand or more. 01:55.977 --> 02:01.635 [SPEAKER_00]: Dad was on the road as a traveling salesman most of the time, leaving Mom to care for five kids. 02:01.733 --> 02:08.763 [SPEAKER_00]: The bed-wetting pissed her off big-time, Dugum was forced to lay in his soaked, then eventually crusty sheets as punishment. 02:09.525 --> 02:18.939 [SPEAKER_00]: The McDonald triad, a controversial theory for predicting future serial killers, but more accurately suggests trauma in a person's childhood, is it work here? 02:19.559 --> 02:23.645 [SPEAKER_00]: We have bed-wetting, that's where it starts, especially if your parents shame you for it. 02:24.326 --> 02:26.710 [SPEAKER_00]: The angry boy soon developed a fascination with fire. 02:27.351 --> 02:31.437 [SPEAKER_00]: He was made to hold matches until he burned his fingers when caught playing with them. 02:31.417 --> 02:40.521 [SPEAKER_00]: Mom liked to mix things up, including Brian's head it seemed, and forced the boy to eat spoonfuls of hot sauce on the occasions where he was found, playing with matches. 02:41.484 --> 02:46.978 [SPEAKER_00]: Fingers and mouth on fire he'd head off to bed, to hit his head, before passing out in piss. 02:47.363 --> 02:50.908 [SPEAKER_00]: All of the punishments and humiliation didn't sway Dugin from misbehaving. 02:51.549 --> 02:53.872 [SPEAKER_00]: He and a younger brother set fire to the family garage. 02:54.433 --> 02:55.474 [SPEAKER_00]: This one Dugin was eight. 02:56.255 --> 03:00.702 [SPEAKER_00]: Mom and Dad did their best to beat some sense into their boy, but it seemed impossible to get through to him. 03:01.302 --> 03:04.206 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost as if he had brain damage or something. 03:04.226 --> 03:05.008 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you retarded? 03:05.208 --> 03:05.969 [SPEAKER_00]: His dad would ask. 03:06.690 --> 03:14.721 [SPEAKER_00]: This poor younger version of Brian James Dugin would probably say, yeah I think I actually am kind of retarded, but maybe he stopped kicking me in the head. 03:15.258 --> 03:23.800 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the TV set over here, and they're not from fuckin' wherever my accent's always from there, new julys a year, wherever the fuck I think it's from, and they're from Illinois. 03:24.202 --> 03:26.284 [SPEAKER_00]: The family relocated to Lyle and Illinois. 03:27.225 --> 03:35.993 [SPEAKER_00]: In 1967, when Dugum was 10 years old, this and DuPage County, he continued misbehaving and found himself in all kinds of strange situations along the way. 03:36.633 --> 03:39.136 [SPEAKER_00]: His parents wanted to marry the house and other hair. 03:39.936 --> 03:43.480 [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of hair at age 13, he complimented that of his friend's mother. 03:44.220 --> 03:46.783 [SPEAKER_00]: This led him to lose his virginity to the woman. 03:47.603 --> 03:52.808 [SPEAKER_00]: Also at age 13, he poured gasoline on the family cat and set it a blaze. 03:52.906 --> 03:57.410 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugum was seen laughing as the cat ran around screeching, eventually dying. 03:58.291 --> 04:08.000 [SPEAKER_00]: As a result, young Brian Dugum clearly fucked up, was evaluated by child specialists, but his kind of issues were not fully understood or sufficiently treated at the time. 04:08.721 --> 04:22.474 [SPEAKER_00]: siblings of Brian Dugum, whom we get most of this information from later, reported possible sexual abuse during a stay in a youth detention facility around 1972, after being arrested 04:22.454 --> 04:30.106 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan later spoke about his experience as being molested as an early teen, these revelations came to light while he was incarcerated as an adult. 04:30.747 --> 04:48.934 [SPEAKER_00]: Though some of it is hard to believe, considering one instance where Dugan claimed to have been coming out of a loud grocery store, when he was offered a job by a portley man and a car who then drove him to a secluded spot, requested Dugan dress and men's model briefs, then allowed Felaccio to be performed on him by the man. 04:49.285 --> 04:49.986 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the job. 04:50.607 --> 04:55.716 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, alright, and after being paid 20 bucks, Dugin, 15 years old, went on his way. 04:56.558 --> 04:57.760 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he had to give the briefs back. 04:58.421 --> 05:12.205 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I said it was hard to believe, none of that should be too hard to believe, considering what's been going on so far, until you learn that Dugin claimed the man who molested him was a mostly friendly fella named John Wayne Gacy. 05:12.404 --> 05:13.365 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe it's true. 05:13.886 --> 05:19.253 [SPEAKER_00]: We are in that time, and that place, Brian Dugan did fit Gacy's victim profile. 05:19.994 --> 05:26.242 [SPEAKER_00]: If so, an awful yet unlucky kid in Dugan finally catches a break by surviving the encounter with Gacy. 05:27.023 --> 05:28.004 [SPEAKER_00]: Annie made 20 bucks. 05:28.865 --> 05:29.326 [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty sweet. 05:29.947 --> 05:32.129 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm being facetious, of course, I should say. 05:32.470 --> 05:36.475 [SPEAKER_00]: But a guy like Dugan in a time like the 70's saw it as a score, said he did. 05:37.096 --> 05:41.922 [SPEAKER_00]: Getting blown by a legend like John Wayne Gacy when you're destined to become a serial 05:42.003 --> 05:45.528 [SPEAKER_00]: and I hate to use all my big words at once, but how serendipitous. 05:46.550 --> 05:57.987 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, since we're loosening up here a bit, I didn't want to say it earlier because people get upset these days about such things, man for good reason, but it goes with it saying how Dugan felt about being sexually molested by his friend's mother. 05:58.688 --> 06:00.571 [SPEAKER_00]: The kid was just getting lucky all over the place. 06:01.292 --> 06:05.318 [SPEAKER_00]: Though of course, and I must be clear, I think it was bad what was happening to the kid. 06:06.200 --> 06:07.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though he said it felt pretty good. 06:08.294 --> 06:12.465 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugans documented criminal activity began soon after his alleged interaction with Gacy. 06:13.086 --> 06:19.703 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, we only have Brian Dugans' word on that, and it came soon after Gacy was arrested in 78, which many say is convenient. 06:20.465 --> 06:23.974 [SPEAKER_00]: I say it's just the first time Dugans saw Gacy in the paper. 06:23.954 --> 06:27.839 [SPEAKER_00]: If I lean more and also have been the mother he banked, Dugum would be saying her name too. 06:28.600 --> 06:40.414 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, after researching the proximity to Gacy, Lyle and Oye, where Dugum claims to have been abducted, and Norwood Park, the Chicago suburb, where Gacy brought boys to bury them, are less than half an hour's drive apart. 06:41.174 --> 06:47.582 [SPEAKER_00]: To say it's a stretch, it is a stretch in and of itself, in my opinion, that he was molested by Gacy. 06:47.782 --> 07:01.218 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin after having been arrested and definitely enduring sexual assaults in Juvie came home and molested his younger brother Steve, telling the boy he'd be just a piece of meat in prison, and this wasn't close to his bad at what it was like for Dugin. 07:01.979 --> 07:08.968 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's nice, big brother teaching little bro a lesson, always nice to get a little breather in these kind of episodes, getting a tender moment. 07:09.408 --> 07:15.696 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin at 17 broke into a KFC with a buddy at night and robbed a safe of four grand. 07:15.676 --> 07:17.058 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't seem to help myself. 07:17.098 --> 07:18.940 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to stay out of these, but here I am. 07:19.420 --> 07:21.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Gacy ate a bucket of KFC as his last meal. 07:22.404 --> 07:26.609 [SPEAKER_00]: Gacy was also manager of three KFCs in Iowa back in the 60s. 07:27.169 --> 07:30.453 [SPEAKER_00]: No connection to the robbery here by Duke and in the 70s, none whatsoever. 07:30.854 --> 07:39.143 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just interesting to me that after this KFC robbery, Duke and ran away to Iowa, where Gacy was manager of KFCs back in Iowa in the 60s. 07:39.744 --> 07:44.029 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't let me lose you here, but to me, that stuff is just playing spooky. 07:44.009 --> 08:00.559 [SPEAKER_00]: Completely unrelated to anything of substance, but imagine teenage Dugan is molested in the early 70s by John Wayne Gacy, then Dugan is so thrown off by the Gacy encounter that it begins a life of crime now involving a sexual element, he's like a Gacy offshoot, bound in a twisted way to Gacy. 08:01.020 --> 08:06.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Psycho thinks somehow, maybe by shooting as low in Gacy's mouth, so there's coincidences here. 08:06.149 --> 08:15.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the KFC robbery, and then the subsequent runaway to Iowa, they began peppering into Dougan's life story after this eventy claims would happen with Gacy. 08:16.549 --> 08:26.267 [SPEAKER_00]: And these are seemingly inconsequential elements that make up Gacy's own story as well, the KFCs and Iowa, to be their markers, ingredients. 08:26.348 --> 08:29.878 [SPEAKER_00]: the secret recipe of all that we don't understand. 08:30.680 --> 08:42.332 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, Duke and ran away to Iowa that year of 73 with an accomplice in the KFC heist, but was eventually caught committing more thefts and brought home to pay the paper or the Colonel. 08:42.532 --> 08:51.404 [SPEAKER_00]: After his release in the summer of 74, now 18-year-old Dugin attempted to abduct a 10-year-old from the Lyle train station, fortunately for the girl. 08:51.825 --> 08:55.990 [SPEAKER_00]: It was broad daylight and her screams drew enough attention to spook Brian Dugin off. 08:56.491 --> 09:00.296 [SPEAKER_00]: The girl ran to a nearby liquor store run by her father and police recalled. 09:01.037 --> 09:04.081 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin, who was well-known in the community, soon was arrested. 09:04.682 --> 09:10.750 [SPEAKER_00]: But eventually released either on a technicality or as a result of the charges being dropped, 09:10.730 --> 09:18.782 [SPEAKER_00]: Either way, a big mistake was made here, Dugin had proven himself by this point to be a menace and had no business being loose in society. 09:19.743 --> 09:28.977 [SPEAKER_00]: Not long after the attempt to kidnapping, Dugin found himself in jail anyways, after having kicked in the headlights of his sister's car and threatening to chop up his two-year-old nephew. 09:29.638 --> 09:38.070 [SPEAKER_00]: The single mother had been nice enough to take Dugin in and this is how he repaid her after being told he couldn't use her car to transport some stolen goods. 09:38.219 --> 09:47.910 [SPEAKER_00]: In March of 76, the 20-year-old version of Dugin seemed to finally fuck up bad enough to be put away for years after setting an elementary school on fire for the hell of it. 09:48.611 --> 09:52.875 [SPEAKER_00]: He was sentenced to three years in prison, but was per rolled after seven months served. 09:53.596 --> 10:06.150 [SPEAKER_00]: He avoided another lengthy prison sentence in 1979, after attempting to abduct a store clerk, she got away, and in Dugin got away with it, as there wasn't enough evidence to charge the chronic offender. 10:06.333 --> 10:26.797 [SPEAKER_00]: Naturally, another opportunity came that same year of 79, when now 23-year-old Dugin was arrested for burglary at his new apartment, Dugin had a girl living with them, a 14-year-old runaway, who admitted she and Dugin were in a sexual relationship, Brian Dugin is sentenced to seven years for contributing to the sexual delinquency of a minor and burglary. 10:27.498 --> 10:33.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin served three years at Manard Correctional Center before once again being gifted 10:33.974 --> 10:38.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan, now 26 years old, was seen as immature and not much of a threat. 10:39.541 --> 10:46.850 [SPEAKER_00]: He was abused all through his prison stance, a mouse he long-haired mustache, gangly white boy, greasy looking with a lost look. 10:47.571 --> 10:59.425 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan fooled everyone into thinking him a victim, just to screwed up young man with a tough past, clearly mentally disabled in some way, poor impulse control, but useless when it came to serious crimes. 10:59.405 --> 11:04.372 [SPEAKER_00]: He attempted at least two kidnappings, but they've been so lame that charges hadn't been able to stick. 11:05.233 --> 11:11.282 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugum was a loser, and yeah, he'd probably be back, probably for stealing a washing machine or something. 11:11.763 --> 11:14.687 [SPEAKER_00]: He was always getting caught dragging crap away that was too heavy for him. 11:15.368 --> 11:20.595 [SPEAKER_00]: An imbacil, a sensation addicted neurotic is what prison psychologist dubbed him. 11:21.056 --> 11:26.804 [SPEAKER_00]: He drank, smoked a lot of weed, back then it was thought this could be enough for Dolph's like Dugum to do stupid shit. 11:27.485 --> 11:29.007 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he can grow out of it. 11:29.527 --> 11:35.460 [SPEAKER_00]: Less than a year after his latest present stint and late February of 1983, Dugan did the opposite. 11:36.041 --> 11:36.843 [SPEAKER_00]: He grew into it. 11:37.585 --> 11:38.206 [SPEAKER_00]: Makes a prize. 11:42.676 --> 11:46.945 [SPEAKER_00]: Wednesday, February 23rd, 1983. 11:47.127 --> 11:48.329 [SPEAKER_00]: Naperville, Illinois. 11:48.349 --> 11:53.580 [SPEAKER_00]: 26-year-old Brian Dugan has blown off work again to cruise around in smoke weed. 11:54.201 --> 12:01.575 [SPEAKER_00]: He gained employment as an ink mixer for an art and label shop, which had taken a gamble on the repeat offender and lost. 12:01.690 --> 12:04.853 [SPEAKER_00]: He's fucking it up, but that's not Dougan's main concern right now. 12:05.734 --> 12:07.355 [SPEAKER_00]: As of this morning, he has nowhere to live. 12:07.996 --> 12:16.424 [SPEAKER_00]: His girlfriend had broken up with him because he owed her and her father money, and now, I don't know where, her father had informed Dougan that he was no longer welcome to stay in his basement. 12:17.145 --> 12:24.412 [SPEAKER_00]: When a crock is shit, he'd be paying his fair share, as much as he could and his meteor salary made measly by all the skip days like today. 12:25.332 --> 12:28.035 [SPEAKER_00]: His feelings were hurt by the whole thing. 12:28.201 --> 12:36.397 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin, of course, couldn't get it through his thick, I'll be at compressed at the front and dent in all around skull, but he wasn't welcome anymore because of the breakup. 12:37.038 --> 12:43.932 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't stay in your girlfriend's dad's basement where his daughter still lives as well, if the daughter broke up with you, Dugin. 12:44.620 --> 12:46.282 [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever, it's still fucking bullshit. 12:46.843 --> 12:57.175 [SPEAKER_00]: His car, a green, plymoth, volare, with a missing hubcap on the back, allegedly breaks down at this point, while he's cruising around, little neighborhoods out there in a small town, Illinois. 12:57.916 --> 13:04.604 [SPEAKER_00]: As if things couldn't get any worse, it's 2.30 pm and Dugan realizes that this is a prime time for breaking into houses. 13:05.425 --> 13:07.727 [SPEAKER_00]: He looks around stone to check out where he's ended up. 13:08.368 --> 13:13.294 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a quaint little suburb with street signs that read book road and clover court. 13:13.679 --> 13:20.249 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugging instead of his old junker, claiming later he approached the nearest home only with the intent of boring a screw driver. 13:21.050 --> 13:29.423 [SPEAKER_00]: Why he creeps across the grass like a serpent before reaching the sunroom of the split level of house laid back there, mining its own business, we understand soon enough. 13:30.184 --> 13:33.009 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugging, as always, is up to no good. 13:33.950 --> 13:40.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Inside, 10-year-old Janine Nicarico responds to the sand of the front storm door screeching open. 13:40.477 --> 13:40.818 [SPEAKER_00]: Nan? 13:41.679 --> 13:48.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Janine, wearing only a snow-white night gown with the words, I'm sleepy on it, is home sick from school with the flu. 13:49.471 --> 13:59.447 [SPEAKER_00]: Her dad and engineers at Workin' Chicago, her mom, a secretary at Janine's school in the street, is keeping close tabs on the fifth grader who she signed at herself, first hand. 13:59.427 --> 14:04.714 [SPEAKER_00]: Mom had just gotten off the phone with her daughter, reminding her not to open the front door, shouldn't anyone knock. 14:05.455 --> 14:14.947 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugans gaunt, ratty, moustache face, long-haired dangling in front of it, like a fucking curtain, seems to hang in the window of that door, when Janine alerts to it. 14:15.568 --> 14:17.911 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, could I hear a screwdriver? 14:18.772 --> 14:19.653 [SPEAKER_00]: The girls shakes her head. 14:20.695 --> 14:28.725 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan unfortunately then has an idea, blood rushing to the wrong head as it comes to him. 14:29.431 --> 14:32.279 [SPEAKER_00]: The girl shakes her head again, her parents are not home. 14:33.141 --> 14:33.743 [SPEAKER_00]: Big mistake. 14:34.665 --> 14:40.521 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugu and with that another word, North thought, steps back, and begins kicking in the door. 14:40.838 --> 14:46.286 [SPEAKER_00]: Junine runs upstairs to her bedroom and hides, stifling sneezes and coughs no doubt, as she's quite ill. 14:47.067 --> 14:49.310 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't take long before the front door crashes open. 14:49.891 --> 14:51.773 [SPEAKER_00]: Two big boots, is all it needed. 14:52.634 --> 14:57.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Then heavy footfalls begin making the way through the house, up the stairs, slamming through Junine's door. 14:58.583 --> 15:01.767 [SPEAKER_00]: The 10-year-old is dragged kicking and screaming at a room. 15:01.747 --> 15:12.615 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan beats on the little girl, and manages to knock her senseless enough to get her bed blankets wrapped around her, then carries her downstairs, he finds some rope ties her up, and gags her. 15:13.336 --> 15:19.131 [SPEAKER_00]: Then Dugan goes out to his car, pulls it in the driveway, miraculously, it runs fine now. 15:19.111 --> 15:24.302 [SPEAKER_00]: Though probably, it always had, we are working off a Duke's recollection of events. 15:24.863 --> 15:32.238 [SPEAKER_00]: The only version, as he then drives Janine five miles away to a nature preserve where he rapes the little girl in every way possible. 15:32.879 --> 15:39.533 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he drags her from the vehicle and beats her to death with a tire iron, slamming her head first and to his car for good measure. 15:39.732 --> 15:52.425 [SPEAKER_00]: He then dumps the naked body of Janine in the bush by a river and a hiking path, and later tosses her blankets in a dumpster of a grocery store, incredibly dug and returns to his ex-girlfriend's father's basement where he hides the tire iron. 15:53.406 --> 16:02.995 [SPEAKER_00]: After having some time to think, then being kicked out again, dug and gets rid of his boots in a farm field, believing his prints could track him down somewhere along the line. 16:03.016 --> 16:06.499 [SPEAKER_00]: A line that he should have been hung from, in the end. 16:07.171 --> 16:12.819 [SPEAKER_00]: The little girl is quickly called into police as missing when her sisters come home to find the front door smashed open. 16:13.499 --> 16:15.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Their mother received the second call first. 16:16.403 --> 16:17.605 [SPEAKER_00]: She just spoke into Janine. 16:18.286 --> 16:18.566 [SPEAKER_00]: How? 16:19.427 --> 16:24.674 [SPEAKER_00]: The family dog, which likely met Dugan's boot, is shivering, scared in the laundry room. 16:25.536 --> 16:36.250 [SPEAKER_00]: Investigators soon arrive and eventually discover blankets missing from Janine's bedroom and scratch marks on the walls throughout the home. 16:36.871 --> 16:43.216 [SPEAKER_00]: Two days later, Hiker's fine Janine Nicarico's little body, her face is difficult to recognize but the night dress is not. 16:44.077 --> 16:44.698 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sleepy. 16:45.779 --> 16:50.243 [SPEAKER_00]: DNA, though in its infancy, is present with semen and collected. 16:51.123 --> 17:05.916 [SPEAKER_00]: A boot print is lifted from the door, and a lead about a green-forged granada, leaving the dump site is pursued, but becomes a red herring as Dugandrova Volare, and the investigation would prove to be run by mostly slackers and corrupt officials. 17:06.166 --> 17:12.696 [SPEAKER_00]: The public demands an arrest and they get three, when a $10,000 reward baits a few patties in to take the fall. 17:13.557 --> 17:18.865 [SPEAKER_00]: 19-year-old gangbanger crazy Alex Hernandez comes forward claiming to know who did it. 17:19.666 --> 17:32.545 [SPEAKER_00]: Alex isn't very bright, he thinks he can just throw a couple names out there, one being a phantom quote, white boy named Rick, and he'll make a quick 10 grand if they buy this shit. 17:32.525 --> 17:43.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Investigators can't possibly believe this kid, but because of the pressure on them, and their bosses, including to Paige County State's attorney, Michael Fitzsimmons, who was up for election, and arrest was announced. 17:44.584 --> 17:56.203 [SPEAKER_00]: A year into the investigation and only weeks away from election time, three young men with histories of misbehavior, Alex Hernandez, Orlando Cruz, and Stephen Buckley, where Announces being the culprits. 17:56.386 --> 18:03.585 [SPEAKER_00]: It was said that crews are confessed that are being routed up by crazy Alex, then crews are given details only known to police and the perpetrators. 18:04.267 --> 18:11.526 [SPEAKER_00]: In reality, crazy Alex had been pressed to give up a real name, not just white boy Rick, in order to get the reward money. 18:11.506 --> 18:17.472 [SPEAKER_00]: Under pressure he gave the name of Orlando Cruz, who was also a gangbanger, but of course, innocent. 18:17.973 --> 18:22.217 [SPEAKER_00]: Investigators manipulated Cruz into a confession by feeding him details of the crime. 18:22.838 --> 18:37.513 [SPEAKER_00]: This led to Cruz saying crazy ox was actually responsible, and now Steven Buckley and Associate of Cruz was dragged into the mix, and a blueprint impression from Buckley matched to the one lifted from the Nicarico front door was said to have matched. 18:37.932 --> 18:41.637 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, both crews and crazy ox are sentenced to death for the crime. 18:42.237 --> 18:51.509 [SPEAKER_00]: Stephen Buckley avoids death by the still suspected as being involved, it's found his footprint doesn't in fact match the one on the door, it's the same type of footwear, but the wrong size. 18:52.430 --> 19:00.700 [SPEAKER_00]: Just another clue that something was hinky here, but the wheels of injustice went grinding on, chewing up three innocent lives of the process. 19:00.680 --> 19:12.828 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you can imagine how these guys were treated in prison, their legit crime being the kidnapping gang rape torture and murder of a 10-year-old girl, home alone in sick, wearing a snow-white in the 7-jwarves night gown. 19:13.590 --> 19:15.955 [SPEAKER_00]: They were fucked, literally. 19:15.935 --> 19:33.034 [SPEAKER_00]: States Attorney Fitz Simmons loses the election despite his best efforts to steal it, though he and investigators are congratulated for at least getting two of the three who allegedly meant to burglarize the Nicarico home, but decided to destroy a little girl instead when the opportunity presented itself sentenced to death. 19:33.875 --> 19:39.681 [SPEAKER_00]: Orlando Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez will sweat on death row for 12 years. 19:39.931 --> 19:49.043 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Brian Dugin, laid relatively low, he was arrested for burglary again, and accused of trying to snatch a few more girls, unsuccessfully. 19:49.724 --> 19:55.972 [SPEAKER_00]: But no suspicion turned to him as the genie in the Caracol case had already been solved by questionable authorities. 19:56.754 --> 20:03.783 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to mention one detective named John Sam, who was released from the department after voicing his suspicions that the wrong men had been convicted. 20:04.384 --> 20:05.365 [SPEAKER_00]: He tried. 20:05.530 --> 20:13.507 [SPEAKER_00]: They would take nearly a decade and a half for the truth to come out, but by then many lives have been deeply affected by this crime and the blatant mishandling of it. 20:14.268 --> 20:22.425 [SPEAKER_00]: In the end, all officials involved in the botched investigation that a page county seven I believe they were called were clear of any wrongdoing. 20:22.405 --> 20:32.924 [SPEAKER_00]: A joke, though nothing was funny here, with a homicidal pedophile on the loose and Brian Dugin bolstered by the buffoonery in the botched book, Road Break in, it's just brutal. 20:33.705 --> 20:41.139 [SPEAKER_00]: And sorry I get stuck in a literation when I become bothered, let's take a break, back in a bit, a brief break. 20:43.603 --> 20:47.029 [SPEAKER_00]: The wee hours of July 15th, 1984. 20:47.093 --> 20:50.019 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been nearly a year and a half since his first known murder. 20:50.680 --> 20:56.432 [SPEAKER_00]: That of we, Janine, Nicarico, and Dougan's feeling pretty confident that he's free to strike again. 20:57.454 --> 21:09.017 [SPEAKER_00]: Donnish Nor, a 27-year-old nurse, is sitting in her car to desolate red light in Aurora, turns signal ticking away her final moments, a train may be drives by in the distance. 21:09.200 --> 21:13.324 [SPEAKER_00]: It's 3 am when Dugin, driving around smoking weed, spots her. 21:14.084 --> 21:19.109 [SPEAKER_00]: Donna has headed home at her a party, it's late, and she likely just wants to get to bed. 21:19.890 --> 21:32.121 [SPEAKER_00]: But when Dugin begins following her from her lonely stop at the intersection, then down a country road, Donna no doubt becomes alert, as Dugin speeds up beside her before forcing her over to the ditch. 21:32.821 --> 21:36.945 [SPEAKER_00]: Both vehicles screeched to a halt, dust swirling in the headlamps. 21:36.925 --> 21:42.293 [SPEAKER_00]: Engines muttering to one another, that nurse snore won't be doing so anytime soon. 21:43.334 --> 21:47.921 [SPEAKER_00]: Duting instead of his vehicle, it's dark and desolate, no one will hear her scream. 21:48.682 --> 21:55.632 [SPEAKER_00]: Though the woman doesn't stand a chance as when she rolls her window down to curse the slime ball stone or out, he punches her in the face. 21:56.293 --> 22:03.523 [SPEAKER_00]: Stunned, Donna is rieved from her car and shoved into Dugans' green plymoth where he ties her hands behind her back. 22:03.503 --> 22:09.110 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin then drives Donna Schnar to a nearby rock quarry and brutally rapes her in every imaginable way. 22:09.911 --> 22:11.433 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he drags her to a pond. 22:12.134 --> 22:17.060 [SPEAKER_00]: Her screams echoing off the rocks are a cut short when Dugin forces Donna's head into the water. 22:17.821 --> 22:19.283 [SPEAKER_00]: He holds it there until she drowns. 22:20.304 --> 22:23.808 [SPEAKER_00]: Then, looking up at the sky, sees the light. 22:25.390 --> 22:25.751 [SPEAKER_00]: Dawn. 22:27.333 --> 22:28.014 [SPEAKER_00]: Time flies. 22:28.935 --> 22:29.916 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're having fun. 22:30.824 --> 22:33.587 [SPEAKER_00]: As he's driving out of the quarry, a car passes him. 22:34.248 --> 22:35.930 [SPEAKER_00]: Fisherman headed to that same water. 22:36.611 --> 22:46.742 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan fearful his vehicle will eventually betray him, quickly heads home and makes plans that same day, to trade his green plymoth in for an old AMC Gremlin. 22:47.583 --> 22:54.351 [SPEAKER_00]: Blue, like the face of the poor woman, the fisherman eventually spot at the water's edge. 23:00.153 --> 23:05.099 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan lays low again, until another opportunity strikes on May 6th, 1985. 23:05.880 --> 23:10.166 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan spots a young woman minding her own business, sitting in her car, parked. 23:10.967 --> 23:13.209 [SPEAKER_00]: He's feeling like maybe something normal could happen. 23:13.830 --> 23:16.353 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan pulls up his coughing gremlin and gets out. 23:17.054 --> 23:19.958 [SPEAKER_00]: He walks up and asks the pretty lady if she'd like to go for a date. 23:20.639 --> 23:24.684 [SPEAKER_00]: When she politely declines, Dugan then offers her 80 bucks for sex. 23:25.485 --> 23:28.168 [SPEAKER_00]: This offer is also declined. 23:28.148 --> 23:29.532 [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus, what's it going to take? 23:30.515 --> 23:37.254 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you look around, sees their alone, that goes around to her pastor's side, gets in, and presents a hunting knife. 23:38.277 --> 23:40.082 [SPEAKER_00]: Do as I say, you won't get hurt. 23:40.585 --> 23:48.154 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan then escorts the girl to his car, where he ties her hands behind her back, blindfolds and gags her, lays her down, and drives off. 23:49.095 --> 23:51.538 [SPEAKER_00]: Once to a secluded spot, he raps his captive. 23:52.339 --> 23:56.804 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he decides to take her blindfold off, untire, and drive her back to her car. 23:57.585 --> 24:02.110 [SPEAKER_00]: All the while chatting away, sharing his name, Brian, and behaving as though everything's cool. 24:02.891 --> 24:10.440 [SPEAKER_00]: Though if she turned his way Dugan would demand she not, don't look at me bitch! 24:10.943 --> 24:17.474 [SPEAKER_00]: When he dropped her off, Dugin' first looked through her wallet, found photos of her family, and promised to kill them if she went to police. 24:18.375 --> 24:19.978 [SPEAKER_00]: Then, he let her go. 24:20.779 --> 24:29.133 [SPEAKER_00]: Driving away, he maybe lit a joint, switched on some tunes, rolled down the window to feel the breeze and his mustache, what an icy young lady. 24:29.915 --> 24:30.716 [SPEAKER_00]: That was a good time. 24:31.658 --> 24:33.120 [SPEAKER_00]: I should go on dates more often. 24:34.349 --> 24:40.197 [SPEAKER_00]: Three weeks later, on May 28th of 85, Dugan attempted to abduct a 19-year-old woman in Aurora. 24:40.738 --> 24:44.683 [SPEAKER_00]: She escaped and noted his license plate, authorities did not immediately act. 24:45.465 --> 24:55.058 [SPEAKER_00]: The next day Dugan abducted and raped a 16-year-old girl in Aurora, wrapping a belt around her neck and threatening to beat her to death with a tire iron if she didn't cooperate. 24:55.291 --> 24:59.258 [SPEAKER_00]: She did, and this scene ends much like the other so-called date. 24:59.979 --> 25:03.846 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan tells her his full name, and acts as though what happened was fine. 25:04.567 --> 25:08.775 [SPEAKER_00]: He drops her off near her house and drives off blasting meatloaf, probably. 25:09.737 --> 25:13.924 [SPEAKER_00]: The girl reported the crime and recalled Dugan's first name and last initial. 25:14.005 --> 25:23.082 [SPEAKER_00]: Police now had A, his license plate, B, his first name, and C, a description of him in his vehicle, but they track him down too late. 25:23.983 --> 25:35.625 [SPEAKER_00]: For their effort, I, like the 16-year-old victim here, would give them a D. The last initial of the strange sadistic serial data about to turn serial killer, Dugan. 25:38.643 --> 25:48.080 [SPEAKER_00]: Less than a week later on June 2nd, 1985, Doug and his smoking dope on the back roads of small town Illinois again, and his now dense and up and rusted blue gremlin. 25:48.641 --> 25:51.967 [SPEAKER_00]: A highly recognizable vehicle should police have been looking for it. 25:52.829 --> 26:00.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, two little girls playing on their bikes, alone on this dirt road, spotted slowly coming around the bend, then stopping in front of them. 26:01.255 --> 26:03.178 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan gets out asking for directions. 26:03.860 --> 26:11.954 [SPEAKER_00]: The girls, seven-year-old Melissa Acumen, and eight-year-old Opal tried to help, getting off their bikes when the most he man says he can't hear them. 26:12.876 --> 26:19.007 [SPEAKER_00]: Once close enough, Dugan grabs Opal, and throws her into the Gremlin's passenger side before slamming the door. 26:19.828 --> 26:25.238 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he goes chasing Melissa, who is running around the car, yelling for her friend Opal to get out. 26:25.471 --> 26:27.175 [SPEAKER_00]: Opel can't immediately. 26:27.837 --> 26:30.944 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin has removed the passenger door handle just for this purpose. 26:31.766 --> 26:36.577 [SPEAKER_00]: Outside Melissa continues to avoid Dugin running around the car, shedding instructions. 26:37.339 --> 26:38.923 [SPEAKER_00]: Go at the window, Opel! 26:39.106 --> 26:44.793 [SPEAKER_00]: Opal does, but then Melissa's caught, and as Opal exits, Melissa is shoved into replace her. 26:45.694 --> 26:50.921 [SPEAKER_00]: Opal takes off running into a field, then hides into the discarded truck tire, and a John Deerlot. 26:51.642 --> 26:54.185 [SPEAKER_00]: She hears the Gremlin mutter, then putter away. 26:55.066 --> 27:04.438 [SPEAKER_00]: Opal looks out from her hiding spot, it catches a glimpse of her friend Melissa's face, screaming from the passenger side window, now sealed, like the brave girl's fate. 27:05.583 --> 27:08.777 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugan managed to quiet the little girl by promising not to hurt her. 27:09.400 --> 27:15.407 [SPEAKER_00]: He drove 20 miles west to a secluded campsite by a creek and told to seven-year-old to get out. 27:15.623 --> 27:24.796 [SPEAKER_00]: There they talk for a bit, probably because Melissa was trying to buy time and when I'm over, Dugan later shared that the little girl showed him how good she was at cartwheels. 27:25.417 --> 27:36.012 [SPEAKER_00]: After having spoke about her love for gymnastics, Melissa acumen, wise well beyond her years, had saved her friend through distraction, and now is attempting to do it for herself. 27:35.992 --> 27:38.396 [SPEAKER_00]: but Dugan wouldn't bite, or maybe he did. 27:39.338 --> 27:47.472 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry and disgusted to say that he then beat, raped, then drowned the poor kid in the creek. 27:47.492 --> 27:49.475 [SPEAKER_00]: Her body was not recovered for several weeks. 27:50.116 --> 27:54.203 [SPEAKER_00]: The surviving girl, Opel, later testified against Brian Dugan. 27:54.959 --> 28:06.376 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugum was arrested on June 3rd, 1985, as a suspect in the Melissa Aquaman murder, and unrelated sex attacks after Opel's description of the vehicle matched one pulled over for an expired sticker. 28:07.177 --> 28:20.798 [SPEAKER_00]: On November 19th, 1985, Dugum pled guilty to the murders of Nurse Schnor and Young Melissa Aquaman, plus related charges, and exchanged for two life sentences, plus 215 years avoiding the death penalty. 28:20.778 --> 28:34.381 [SPEAKER_00]: During questioning, he informally confessed to the Nicarico murder, providing details only the perpetrator would know, including specifics later corroborated by forensics, prosecutors at that time dismissed portions as unreliable. 28:35.143 --> 28:46.482 [SPEAKER_00]: In 1987, while incarcerated, Dugum was stabbed multiple times, reports vary between 12 and 30 times in the arm in chest, but survived, which is a shame. 28:46.850 --> 28:51.078 [SPEAKER_00]: His mission to the Janine-Nicarico kidnapping in murder made a real mess. 28:51.779 --> 28:56.629 [SPEAKER_00]: The system wanted Rolando Cruz and Crazy Oxrananas and Stephen Buckley to be responsible. 28:57.290 --> 28:58.071 [SPEAKER_00]: And they fight this. 28:58.592 --> 29:06.327 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a big struggle, even with confession from Dugan and his DNA in the Carico case, they don't want to admit they could have been wrong. 29:06.307 --> 29:15.901 [SPEAKER_00]: DNA wasn't yet conclusive evidence, but it was on the scene and they said that, yeah, it's some of that could have been belonging to Orlando Cruz from our testing here. 29:16.501 --> 29:21.989 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of it definitely belongs to Brian Eugen, keep these guys in prison until we figure this out. 29:22.870 --> 29:27.317 [SPEAKER_00]: When Eugen says he kicked the front door in with two kicks, they think they have him lying. 29:27.837 --> 29:30.281 [SPEAKER_00]: There's only one kick on the front door, but they know of. 29:31.022 --> 29:35.368 [SPEAKER_00]: He lied about Gacy, they say, so maybe he's lying here too. 29:35.348 --> 29:46.605 [SPEAKER_00]: They pursue this, they look at the door again, which was removed from the Nicarico residence and kept his evidence and find that yes, there are two foot prints, super imposed on one another, he kicked in the same spot twice. 29:47.867 --> 30:00.546 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh fuck he did it, shit, let those poor buggers go and give them 3.5 million to split, and that's what happens, these guys get let go after being a death row for a dozen years and are paid off. 30:00.796 --> 30:12.070 [SPEAKER_00]: Dugin confessed to the New Carico murder as a way to stay off the death penalty, though it didn't matter, as it was eventually abolished in 2011, for Illinois, still there was a window of opportunity there. 30:12.511 --> 30:24.006 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember this wrapped up in the early 90s, where they could have gotten rid of him, though if the process were that speedy, two other innocent men, in a cruise in Hernandez, would have been executed too. 30:24.867 --> 30:27.310 [SPEAKER_00]: So, there's that to consider. 30:27.661 --> 30:32.309 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, do you can still alive, 69, and feel and fine. 30:34.100 --> 30:35.005 [SPEAKER_00]: What a piece of shit. 30:41.768 --> 30:57.525 [SPEAKER_00]: And that'll do it, thank you for listening, for exclusive content, try Dark Topic Plus, links in the show notes, got something nice to say, something not so nice, leave a review, that's just read of a few reviews for fun here at the end. 30:59.508 --> 31:03.872 [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, let's do two positives in a negative, like when you're given somebody feedback. 31:05.274 --> 31:09.919 [SPEAKER_00]: Five stars, oh man, to be Kelsky of podcasting. 31:10.118 --> 31:10.939 [SPEAKER_00]: How embarrassing. 31:11.981 --> 31:12.843 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Jim's Hems. 31:13.344 --> 31:14.686 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't sound like a five-star. 31:16.049 --> 31:22.140 [SPEAKER_00]: If I've ever acted like the Kowskir said I want to be like him, that isn't embarrassing, so I agreed with you. 31:22.801 --> 31:24.203 [SPEAKER_00]: I was probably drunk when I said that. 31:25.386 --> 31:27.049 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see get an actual positive review. 31:27.069 --> 31:27.930 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go down a bit here. 31:27.990 --> 31:30.034 [SPEAKER_00]: Immediately hooked. 31:30.571 --> 31:40.622 [SPEAKER_00]: Can't get enough, happy to pay extra for the treasure trove of back episodes of extra content, when Jack and Kent team up the chemitries fantastic, somehow in crying with laughter during the most horrific of stories. 31:41.423 --> 31:44.606 [SPEAKER_00]: Jack Luna and his solo episodes have such dry, razor sharp, well-kay. 31:45.807 --> 31:46.368 [SPEAKER_00]: Enough enough. 31:46.388 --> 31:47.109 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much. 31:47.169 --> 31:47.929 [SPEAKER_00]: A really unique style. 31:47.949 --> 31:48.170 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 31:48.230 --> 31:48.450 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 31:48.730 --> 31:49.391 [SPEAKER_00]: Storytelling. 31:50.072 --> 31:52.314 [SPEAKER_00]: That's keen and leaves one absolutely enthralled. 31:52.334 --> 31:52.895 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god. 31:52.995 --> 31:53.555 [SPEAKER_00]: That's okay. 31:53.595 --> 31:54.136 [SPEAKER_00]: Enough enough. 31:54.757 --> 31:55.437 [SPEAKER_00]: Another positive. 31:55.477 --> 31:56.038 [SPEAKER_00]: Why not? 31:56.879 --> 32:16.204 [SPEAKER_00]: Jack is real in refreshing five stars love the show long time listener can't believe it's been six years has it been six years I started in 2017 February so It's actually been nine years But it's been six years since I rebooted the show so maybe that's really some confusion is there 32:16.184 --> 32:17.405 [SPEAKER_00]: But thank you very much. 32:17.846 --> 32:18.206 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. 32:18.226 --> 32:18.947 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing podcast. 32:18.987 --> 32:19.607 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 32:19.687 --> 32:19.928 [SPEAKER_00]: Pink. 32:20.188 --> 32:20.909 [SPEAKER_00]: Jack's the goat. 32:21.329 --> 32:21.489 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 32:21.910 --> 32:30.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Jack Luna is one of my favorite hosts of all time with his combination of wit, humility, respect, and knowledge of each topic, including Miranda. 32:30.137 --> 32:33.901 [SPEAKER_00]: His ability to colorfully describe even the mundane keeps me listening. 32:33.921 --> 32:34.021 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 32:34.041 --> 32:34.862 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 32:35.983 --> 32:37.024 [SPEAKER_00]: Milk, boobay. 32:39.787 --> 32:40.447 [SPEAKER_00]: And a negative. 32:41.588 --> 32:43.170 [SPEAKER_00]: The character had a negative? 32:43.606 --> 32:46.350 [SPEAKER_00]: but there's one here, okay, waste of time and money, one star. 32:47.131 --> 32:48.673 [SPEAKER_00]: I tried to give this guy a chance. 32:49.234 --> 32:54.462 [SPEAKER_00]: He spends almost 10 minutes in the beginning of each episode rambling about nothing until he gets to the actual story. 32:55.062 --> 32:56.625 [SPEAKER_00]: The first episode, let's do. 32:57.045 --> 33:02.133 [SPEAKER_00]: He rambled about how he cheated on his girlfriends and then be hurt when they cheated on him. 33:02.733 --> 33:03.214 [SPEAKER_00]: Who cares? 33:03.955 --> 33:05.918 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't what I paid to listen to. 33:05.898 --> 33:11.390 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, paying to listen to a podcast and hearing the host smoking weed, I don't smoke weed by cigarettes. 33:11.410 --> 33:13.756 [SPEAKER_00]: And cracking up in beers is just trashy. 33:14.117 --> 33:14.537 [SPEAKER_00]: No thanks. 33:14.598 --> 33:17.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's find a... Ava-ooosh. 33:18.747 --> 33:20.611 [SPEAKER_00]: I was talking about what they're talking about there. 33:20.631 --> 33:22.776 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm one of the dark-topic plus episodes. 33:22.756 --> 33:49.860 [SPEAKER_00]: about a character I was writing for writing about in a story and how I could relate like he was getting cheated on and stuff and I had all this insight and then I started thinking about my past relationships and I was like oh shit yeah I haven't cheated on and almost every relationship and but then I was like but wait I cheated on almost every girl it was with like when I was younger right and all the way up and took like all through my life so I have a 33:50.532 --> 34:02.151 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, my girl doesn't listen to this podcast, but if she did one day look at the reviews and I was like, dad or something for being the Bikowski of True Crying, she'd be like, what, he was talking about me, him cheating on me? 34:03.112 --> 34:11.306 [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's that's disingenuous that feedback there and also you came over to my, my paid stuff probably came free and then heard something in a like and then left that review. 34:11.326 --> 34:13.890 [SPEAKER_00]: You must have liked the podcast before that, right? 34:13.988 --> 34:16.951 [SPEAKER_00]: But then you leave a one-star review and the first thing you hear that you don't like. 34:17.852 --> 34:28.142 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm reminded of a saying on all that, and it's familiarity breeds contempt, rarity wins, adoration, or admiration. 34:29.043 --> 34:32.025 [SPEAKER_00]: That's an old saying that I never really understood until I started doing this podcast. 34:32.106 --> 34:39.793 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm open, I make myself very familiar to the audience, especially on the dark topic plus and brutal and all that. 34:39.875 --> 34:49.903 [SPEAKER_00]: I try to pull back a bit when it comes to publicly as dark topic got more and more popular and I got weird feedback and messages and, and it's true, I mean familiarity breeds content. 34:49.964 --> 35:09.460 [SPEAKER_00]: People think that they know me because they hear what they hear in the podcast and then when they don't like me for some reason, if say I say something to them directly when they're being shitty to me or I say something on the podcast that pisses them off, then they'll take that familiarity and use it against me. 35:09.440 --> 35:28.883 [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever had your self improve yourself and then the people that you were around try to drag you back Like crabs crabs in the bucket they call it try to pull you back down So they're more familiar with with that version of you that was kind of shit You're like them and now you're trying to prove yourself and they're like hey, well, you think you're better than me And they try to pull you back down 35:28.863 --> 35:42.923 [SPEAKER_00]: So the familiarity with people that I've had here, it's, it's, it breeds some contempt and rarity breeds admiration because it's like they don't really know you, you're fresh, you're new and everything you do is fucking new and interesting and worth admiring. 35:43.510 --> 36:03.751 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I put myself out there, and this is what I get sometimes, and it comes with the territory, but that being said, I want to say that I really, really appreciate all the positive fucking feedback that comes through, and all the little negatives are worth it. 36:05.032 --> 36:09.957 [SPEAKER_00]: For being as open as I am, and for the relationship that I have with a lot of people in the audience and all that stuff. 36:10.291 --> 36:20.888 [SPEAKER_00]: Going forward, I think I am going to try to pull back a bit and kind of hang out behind the scenes on Dartmouth Plus with the extras about my life and all that because it has gotten a little weird as you can imagine. 36:21.829 --> 36:28.800 [SPEAKER_00]: So, anyways, I should listen to my own advice and keep those eyes cocked, those doors locked in state paranoid. 36:29.542 --> 36:31.084 [SPEAKER_00]: Big love everyone, I'll talk to you real soon. 36:31.465 --> 36:34.890 [SPEAKER_00]: Life is brutal, but we do our best to make it beautiful. 36:36.172 --> 36:37.935 [SPEAKER_00]: So, hang in there. 36:38.489 --> 36:43.443 [SPEAKER_00]: We just keep on fucking trucking. 36:43.463 --> 36:43.825 [SPEAKER_00]: There you go.