[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Created Parenting Podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey guys, today we are talking about discipline.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, that's a big word.
[SPEAKER_03]: Discipline specifically is an opportunity for discipleship.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times people think of discipline and discipleship as two separate things.
[SPEAKER_03]: We actually think discipline is part of discipleship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this is a hard topic for parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's relevant because all kids, sin, all humans, sin.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a hard one to stay on the biblical road.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of times families don't mean to, but they get in the harsh ditch or they get in the passive ditch, because what they've been doing, they try to be intentional, it has been working, they fall into the passive ditch.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to be on the biblical road of relational discipleship, while we're also following through on discipline and how they work together.
[SPEAKER_03]: So today's episode is actually inspired by a chapter in our newest book that is about to be coming out on June 2nd.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if you are interested in finding out about being on our launch team, we invite you to go check out the show notes at courageousparenting.com on this blog post episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's courageous parenting, biblical parenting on precedent times.
[SPEAKER_01]: The new book about 230 pages were so excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: Join us as we launch this, it's a signature part of the next phase of impacting 10 million legacies around the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So join us in that and enjoy the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've been parenting a long time, nine kids, three launched more soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And literally, when you look at the title of this episode, an opportunity, discipline is an opportunity for discipleship.
[SPEAKER_01]: That always didn't ring true for us in the early days and necessarily we had to learn this and it's hard in the moment to even see the opportunity because things can get very frustrating as a parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can get really frustrated by the continual disobedience in the same way of one of our children and that can be challenging.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there is an opportunity we want to talk to you about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really big deal in fact in Hebrews.
[SPEAKER_01]: 1211 it says for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a perfect verse for just describing that there is a raping from what you sow, which we're gonna talk a little bit more about in a few minutes.
[SPEAKER_03]: But understanding that there is responsibility on both the disciplinary and or the leader or the parent, whoever this applies to, because this is not necessarily a scripture for parents, although it does apply to parenting, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also relevant to the person that is being disciplined, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: because it's talking specifically about how in the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant regardless of if you're a child being disciplined right you have your privilege taken away or you're not allowed to go to a specific event or whatever the consequence is like children don't like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure that if you think back to your childhood or any time where you were reprimanded or even had a consequence, maybe you experienced something in work when you were a teenager, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Where you had to had a consequence for something and maybe you even experienced getting laid off or fired as a kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard so many different stories over the years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever it is, it's not pleasant in the moment, but most people learn from their mistakes when there's discipline.
[SPEAKER_03]: When there isn't discipline, I mean, some people will learn from their mistakes, but usually not, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We all know that, usually not.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not, here's the thing, is that there's a responsibility for the disciplinary into follow-through.
[SPEAKER_03]: We know what God calls us to his parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are, we are told by God that we need to train up a child in a way he should go.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're also told that we need to,
[SPEAKER_03]: parents, our children, and discipline them with the instruction of the Lord, the instruction and ammunition of the Lord.
[SPEAKER_03]: We know that in Colossians 321 we have a warning, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: A huge warning of fathers do not provoke your children to laugh, unless they become discouraged.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that speaks specifically to how to discipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's such an important point right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's really, you know, you can have a harsh home.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get compliance from your children.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could achieve that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that there's heart change happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that they're growing stronger with the Lord.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I would say it detracts from them growing stronger with the Lord because they're starting to view God as a harsh God.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're starting to look at God the wrong way.
[SPEAKER_01]: if you have a really harsh environment because you're not seeing the opportunity for discipleship while you're disciplining, it's ruining your agenda and it's frustrating and maybe you're doing an anger, maybe you're exasperated, maybe you're exasperating your kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: but you're getting compliance, so then it's validated because you're like, hey, look, that worked.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not working long-term parenting's a long game.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also the passive side, the other ditch in the road, which is we just don't follow through very often because we're tired.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're trying.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't seem to work anyways, and so we're just passive.
[SPEAKER_01]: The all kids are like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is kids will be kids the way it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the passive ditch.
[SPEAKER_01]: What we're talking about is the relational discipleship, biblical road where discipline is followed through on consistently with the right approach that the Bible actually talks about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a multiple, uh, uh, there's lots of scriptures that you're looking at to really understand the full flavor of disciplining your children.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you only look at the rod scriptures, you're really going to miss out on the full flavor of what discipline is.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's really an opportunity here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's interesting because when we realize that our role in second Corinthians chapter 5, it talks about our ministry of reconciliation.
[SPEAKER_03]: That God has, the old has gone, the new has come, your new creation in Christ.
[SPEAKER_03]: He calls us ambassadors for Christ and He literally is giving us the ministry of reconciliation, appealing.
[SPEAKER_03]: his message appealing through us for reconciliation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we know again from Matthew 28, we read about the Great Commission.
[SPEAKER_03]: We know that's a collective call for all Christians, and the Great Commission first and foremost starts in your home as you're discipling your children.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we know that we're all called to discipleship, but a lot of people look at discipline as a totally different thing, and then there's discipleship over here.
[SPEAKER_03]: But one of the things that we have realized is that discipline is actually one aspect of discipleship.
[SPEAKER_03]: Disciple ship is actually woven through the fabric of your whole lives.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's literally what you're doing all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Should be.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, but it is actually because disciple lane somebody is, help, they're the student and you're the teacher.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the Bible even says that you don't become better than the teacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love how you wrote about that in the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, the discipleship you're discipling no matter what it's just whether you're intentionally discipling in biblical truth or you're discipling something else right and so it's like years ago I remember when you first encouraged me to start writing a blog and it was called leaving a legacy
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[SPEAKER_03]: and the tagline underneath it was, we're all leaving a legacy whether we're being intentional or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: Boom, like that for me was my reminder of being intentional try to be biblical Angie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did I meet my flesh on a regular basis?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, do I still?
[SPEAKER_03]: wrestle with my flesh on certain things, yeah, because I'm human.
[SPEAKER_03]: We all struggle with being selfish at times.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I'm like getting all my bags together to go, spend my day in town and get as many errands done as possible, get the raw milk, all the things, and I'm headed out, and then all of a sudden there's like a squabble between two of the kids, and I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever done that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever just gone?
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, this is happening again.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought I'd just talk to you boys about not arguing or being a team and being selfless and sharing and not frustrating your brothers because they're helping right now or you know, like how many times have you had certain conversations that your response, the minute you know you have to deal with something again, you have to confront to situation, you just kind of go, again, this is inconvenient.
[SPEAKER_03]: I already dealt with this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever it is that triggers you as a parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: But here's the deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have to realize that in that moment, we got to check ourselves first.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talk about some of the 10 steps to biblical discipline in our new book that is coming out and I cannot encourage you enough to get it because as parents, we need these reminders.
[SPEAKER_03]: I needed these reminders.
[SPEAKER_03]: To check myself, do I need a mommy time out before I have the conversation?
[SPEAKER_03]: Did I do this well every time no, but when I did do it, it was so fruitful.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I stuck to biblical truth and direction in how I would discipline, there was more fruit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Was it always immediate?
[SPEAKER_03]: No!
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, it's a long game.
[SPEAKER_03]: But here's the deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that first verse that we were talking about, your children also have a responsibility in how they respond.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so as parents, we don't just discipline for the sake of, yep, check it off the box.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did what God told me to.
[SPEAKER_03]: I disciplined.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a good parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it doesn't end there.
[SPEAKER_03]: The goal is actually the ministry of reconciliation that God gave us.
[SPEAKER_03]: And He gave us this opportunity with our kids when they're in our home for 20% of their life.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So on the compliance side, it doesn't care about reconciliation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It cares more about just getting back to peace in the home and what I want to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when there's
[SPEAKER_01]: and a loving approach.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you're seeking truth and you're actually pointing them to Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because here's the real crux of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the opportunity of discipleship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did they disobey you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's more important than them disobeying you though?
[SPEAKER_01]: They are disobeying God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because God has told them to obey their parents in the Lord for this is right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ephesians.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's several scriptures about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they are literally sinning against God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you have not brought that to their attention in the process of reconciliation, they're only reconciling with you for a quick fix and back to normal.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's not, that's like half of the discipleship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's actually half of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you're missing the actual opportunity what God is called you to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jesus Christ died on the cross to reconcile us.
[SPEAKER_03]: back to God the Father, because our sin separates us from God.
[SPEAKER_03]: But our sin also separates us from our from fellow man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because when we sin, sometimes our sin is just between us and God, but usually it hurts other people too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so when Jesus died, he died to bring reconciliation between us and God and us and fellow man.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when we as parents recognize that that is actually what we're called to, that's our main calling in our parenting.
[SPEAKER_03]: is this ministry of reconciliation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then we view discipline differently.
[SPEAKER_03]: We go about it and our end goal is not to just check off the box of hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I disciplined my kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead, it's they are reconciled.
[SPEAKER_03]: They recognize their need to confess and repent to God and they prayed to God and they're learning what it means to be forgiven by him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we made a little bit more of a step towards truth today.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're understanding the gospel a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_03]: And every time you do it, it's like you're teaching a little bit more, and a little bit deeper as they get older, and that is discipleship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would say that there's two problems in parenting that I think I wrestled with.
[SPEAKER_03]: one because I would have never been around children very much.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I was a psychology major and sociology major in college and I had done, you know, top Sunday school and was a director of Christian education and turn all these things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought I was learning all this stuff and then I had my own children and it all went out the door.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, okay, boot camp, Angie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably good at went out the door, actually.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, some of it was helpful, but I will say that I look at my situation with my kids and I went, I have a lot of learning to do, because that's not working.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I had to just keep reading the Bible and keep learning, and I still even 25 years in, and nine kids later, I am still got his word as a live and active you guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even though I was grasping what I was looking for, my kids was remorse.
[SPEAKER_03]: not just that I had done what I was told to do by God, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But I wanted to see heart change in my kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted them to understand that like, God weeps when they sin, and that it breaks my heart when they fight with their sibling, just like it breaks God's heart, when we fight with each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: like it is something that breaks God's heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't want division.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look at all Paul's writings.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so like understanding that the family is the training ground for the family of God and that if we as parents don't do our job in the ministry of reconciliation, then people, then these kids, they grow up and they're older people in a church and they're literally like, oh, you hurt my feelings.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye, church hurt.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not God's way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Reconciliation being committed to one another, working things out and growing.
[SPEAKER_03]: because that's how sanctification works, like you don't just run away from something hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: You stay steadfast, you look at rebuking, you go, thank you for correcting me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we read this all through Proverbs, but yet do God's people actually do what Proverbs says to the, here's Proverbs 121, it says whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, brought out the stupid word.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: God, it's, I mean, but it's very clear.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very important that we understand like God has lit he wrote the word, he knows how we work.
[SPEAKER_03]: He knows this inside and out.
[SPEAKER_03]: He made us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is loving if parents are not disciplining their children and following through on that, it could actually, therefore, lead to them wondering if their parents love them.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, love isn't just the soft love and cuddly love and one love, it is that absolutely, but it's also loving someone so much that care about where they're going.
[SPEAKER_01]: They care about where their heart is.
[SPEAKER_01]: They care about the relationship with God.
[SPEAKER_01]: They care about what they're seeing.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, symptoms of, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: challenges in a child's heart come out as disobedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're thankful that you're seeing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the opportunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm seeing where they're at.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can discuss where they're at.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can have a strategy together.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can encourage you to stay the course on biblical discipline, but also continue to disciple them in those moments and point them to God and pray together and reconcile together and seeing their warm prayers towards
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so amazing when, over and over again, they understand the sin they have, and then they're repenting, and they're experiencing this growing up, and they're praying, and you're there with them praying, to God, they are really understanding that the sin nature of man, and therefore they can really comprehend the awesome nature of Jesus, because if there's no sin,
[SPEAKER_03]: or no need for it right like if they don't believe they send and what's what is the reason why they would need a savior from themselves from from their sin so that's the opportunity is wow how many times if you actually fall through on this are they being pointed to Jesus so they recognizing their sin are they repenting of their sin?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they praying?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're prayer life takes us.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're praying to God, forgive me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Lord for forgiving me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And going even farther like what is reconciliation, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that this is part of it?
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the first part.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then the freedom that comes from knowing that you are forgiven and that you are free.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's no condemnation in you.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not labeled as,
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the things you do, the bad choices you make, the sins that you commit, are not who you are, they're not your identity, your identity as in Christ.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so truly, when you experience discipline from a biblical perspective, all the way through, and it's discipleship, not just discipline.
[SPEAKER_03]: but it's discipline is an opportunity for discipleship.
[SPEAKER_03]: At the end of it, there should be a joy where your kids are like, thankful that Jesus is in their life because He's forgiven them and helps other people who also love Jesus to forgive them and have grace with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this isn't theories, this is biblical truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is 25 years of parenting, nine children.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is seeing, this is seeing fruit from our older kids and how respectful they are, how much they love the Lord and their individual relationship with God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are obedience to us in their teenage years, not perfectly nobody's perfect, but just overwhelmingly it's been awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want that, awesomeness for all of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: No matter what season you're in, we want, and it's nothing special that we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were just following the Bible, we studied it, we're being a marriage team together, but really not making sure we're not that harsh family, making sure we're not that passive approach, but making sure we're on a biblical road of following through a biblical discipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: But making sure we're incorporating the other scriptures that talk about how do we do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't exhaust bread or kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are we supposed to do to around me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Six night we're supposed to always be discipling our children.
[SPEAKER_01]: That includes indiscipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you weave that into your discipline process and yes, it takes a little more time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it actually doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the short-term it takes more time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about their relationship with God that matters, not time anyways.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's interesting because when you deal with character issues or the selfishness, for example, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: When you dig in with the sin versus sweeping it under the carpet, you take the rose tinted glasses off and you're willing to admit as a parent, my child sins.
[SPEAKER_03]: Huh, big shock, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then also admit, I sin that times.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, big shock.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, when you operate in reality, then you're not surprised, triggered, exasperated as often.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, okay, they're seven.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like you start to real, okay, therefore, why was I getting mad about this?
[SPEAKER_03]: I literally let the four-year-old get to me like that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm supposed to be more mature, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know if this is like encouraging to you, but these were the things that I literally had to say to myself, to coach myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: You even mentioned this like meta-thinking where you're able to coach yourself in your brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very few people do it according to the scientists who knows if they're right, I don't really trust them usually.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's this thing of where you actually can think about your thinking and not from a selfish standpoint, not from a right standpoint, but an objective standpoint of actually looking at the negative of your thinking, the positive, what is actually real, and then coaching yourself on how to do that better next time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, and it's interesting because parenting is sanctifying, and so I've definitely not done this perfectly forever, but it's been a learning process, like I said, it's sanctifying, sanctification is growth over a long period of time, but you have to submit to it as a parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where your responsibility is, is that we have a responsibility all men, all people have a responsibility, including your children to surrender to God in that kind of way where you want to learn, you want to grow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that if parents are prideful and they don't want to grow, then their kids are going to be prideful and they're not going to want to grow because they don't see humility.
[SPEAKER_03]: They see apologizing, they don't see owning your mistakes, and then they're less likely to actually own their mistakes and they'll be blame shifters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the term actually is metacognition, but what's interesting is I think what normally happens is we're self-protective naturally as humans.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what the natural thinking of is I was right
[SPEAKER_01]: I did the best I could and it's just not working what else can I do and it's all the self-protective mechanism that kicks in and that's the normal way and if you're in that realm you will start to think my children are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their children are
[SPEAKER_01]: different than mine mine are more rambunctious therefore it's not going to work make excuses for your family and remember someone once said the excuses you make are the excuses you get to keep so you get the fruit of your excuses in your future and so parenting is a long game and unfortunately too many because of everybody around is also embracing the excuses kids will be kids right
[SPEAKER_01]: Then what happens is a whole generation of children are growing up together in these groups, here, there at the church, at the sports, at the school, whatever it is, all these groups, and parents are getting together, and they're similar behavior amongst all the children, which is you know, nice kids, but disobedient often.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then what you have is, well, that's just normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is not normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is going to reap havoc in your legacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's going to be a lack of fruitfulness.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not going to understand in your home.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about this at
[SPEAKER_01]: How important is that they understand authority while they're growing up and submitting to authority?
[SPEAKER_01]: This can have wreak havoc in their relationship with God, their marriage relationship, their relationship with your grandkids and how they're being raised.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Isaac, let's talk about how a parent, a mom, or a dad, potentially destroys the opportunity for discipleship in the midst of discipline.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we've mentioned it a couple times, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: About fathers do not provoke your children less.
[SPEAKER_03]: They become discouraged, but we've got an entire podcast episode that we did a few years ago on ways that parents provoke their children.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's not like one main way, but there is Ephesians 64 that says fathers do not provoke your children to wrath, which is anger, but bring them up.
[SPEAKER_03]: in the instruction and admonition of the Lord.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, and that's right after children obey your parents and the Lord for this is right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there's this context of instruction for children, instruction for parents, but what it's interesting because God is literally commanding children to do something, obey your parents, and then he's warning parents, do not do this, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that is a huge
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, something counterintuitive comes to my mind is capacity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of times our capacity for what we can handle in life grows slowly over times and sometimes we have significant events where it causes it to grow sharply in a larger capacity or it actually depending on how we respond to the challenge.
[SPEAKER_01]: or decreases our capacity actually can go either way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we're on the growth mode in our approach to life and we're trusting God, then you're going to, your capacity is going to go faster and most people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, children, their capacity is back at a level you can't remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when they spill their water,
[SPEAKER_01]: or melch or melch and they cry or something like that that can seem ridiculous to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the reason is ridiculous to you is because you've already done that, you've broken glasses, you've done worse than that in your life because you have lifespan, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: You some of you even maybe through a plate, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've heard of those stories, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And not in our home, but I've heard of those, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But the kid has an experience much
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, having understanding for where their capacities at, not being forgetful, but still following through and instructing them and when it's warranted to discipline them as well, is important.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that we exacerbate because we forget that there's just a huge gap between where our capacities at and where their capacity for what they can handle is.
[SPEAKER_03]: So true, it's a good reminder that we need to bear our children's burdens in a sense, which Galatians chapter 6 1 and 2 and 3 talks about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You guys can go look at that later.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there's a proverb, proverb 15 verse 1 through 5 says, a soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so obviously a parent that is being harsh, you mentioned that before, is going to potentially exasperate or provoke their children.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you are angry, you're going to provoke them to anger.
[SPEAKER_03]: It continues.
[SPEAKER_03]: It says, the tongue of the wise commands knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
[SPEAKER_03]: The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil in the good.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously there's a difference between evil and good.
[SPEAKER_03]: A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.
[SPEAKER_03]: We want to be careful not to break our children's spirit in the midst of discipline.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have another podcast episode that's all on Does your child have a crushed spirit?
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to go listen to that if you think that that's potentially an issue that you've struggled with in your home.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the focus here is that when we are disciplining, a gentle tongue is a tree of life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our words matter whether we are saying things in our tongues.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not just what we say, it's how we say it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's important that we recognize that there is a power that parents have been given to encourage or break a spirit in a sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the whole point is that our kids would submit their will first and foremost to God that they would pursue righteousness, that they would want to be living in a way that is honoring to him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as they wrestle with the flesh, they're learning how to say no to sin.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yes, to fruitfulness, repent when they do sin, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But here's the next verse.
[SPEAKER_03]: It says, but a fool despises his father's instruction, but whoever he's reproof is prudent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I bring this up because this shows that there is an importance in the heart posture of the child.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they are despising your instruction, that's foolish.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Bible calls them a fool.
[SPEAKER_03]: A fool despises his father's instruction, but whoever he's
[SPEAKER_03]: Reproof that means like listens to it once it is like okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'll take that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's really hard But yeah, okay, they're humble enough to take it that person is prudent We want to raise our children to be prudent Not fools right and so this is an important scripture that we need to recognize that it's not it's not just on parents Like I see so many kids these days who they even in their older years if they haven't been disciplined and taught
[SPEAKER_03]: that they are responsible alone for their relationship with God and that includes their relationship with other people because sin between people actually creates separation between them and God and vice versa.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they understand that concept then they know that they have ownership that they have to take responsibility for in conflict in relationships and that if they don't and they're just blame shifting then that's not ever going to be reconciled which means they're
[SPEAKER_03]: problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a really, really big problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we need to teach our kids that they need to own their responsibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is taught to them when we also own our responsibility and relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I bring this up because sometimes when you discipline as a parent, it has nothing to do with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe your child send against somebody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or maybe they send
[SPEAKER_03]: But as a parent, let's just be honest, you deal with a lot of different emotions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're to play date and your kid fights with a totally different kid, there might be a sense of shame and embarrassment.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're sad because you're worried about the future of that friendship and if that parent's going to let their kid play with your kid again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so there's that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then there's also this like sadness for the reality of where your child's heart is at that led them to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Now let's step back and take a different scenario.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's say your child fights with one of their siblings.
[SPEAKER_03]: Your heart breaks for all the same reasons as before, but then there's also this this element of sadness that your kids are fighting against each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a different kind of brokenheartedness that's very personal.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very real.
[SPEAKER_03]: and it's hard because you don't want to take sides.
[SPEAKER_03]: You love your children equally, but you also are like there's an element of justice that needs to be there because we are representing God, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you need to take time to get to know the real situation so that you can mediate and all those things.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at the end of the day, I have to remind you that what is so important is that we are teaching our kids to take responsibility because if we don't, they're not going to grow and go through the training process and be sanctified when they're younger.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then when they're older and they're dealing with like real serious relationship issues, like maybe they land in divorce, maybe they are estranged from family members, different things like this that we see happening in like mask quantities everywhere in society,
[SPEAKER_03]: It stems back to pride, a lack of humility, an unwillingness to forgive, an inability to own their own mistakes, and a lot of blank shifting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we see that a lot, like there's a lot of teenagers and young adults that they'll literally, they won't take responsibility for how they hurt someone, but instead they'll point at their parents and say, I hurt you because they did this to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And while there may be that may be truth, there might be some kind of trauma or something that they've experienced.
[SPEAKER_03]: The reality is is when you grow up, if you are able to even acknowledge that, then you are also responsible for your healing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you're claiming to be a Christian, then you need to like, God calls us to go about the Matthew 18 approach with all people and pursue reconciliation, because that is the ministry he gave all of us as believers.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no, like, oh, no, it's not my thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm the kid in that relationship or no, like we all need responsibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that this is an important aspect of discipleship that needs to be taught.
[SPEAKER_03]: The minute kids know how to talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of times when you think about everybody wants to know the answer to how do you reach your children's hearts?
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I reach their hearts?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you can easily, I think we just recently said this, you can love you, but you could not have their hearts.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, most people in the middle school, definitely in the teenage years, kind of lose their children's hearts in a way of being able to teach them, being to guide them.
[SPEAKER_01]: To be the most in the children's eyes the most important authority in their lives other than the God, of course And the most important people to get wisdom from the parents are losing that in the middle school in teenage years when it's most important So you don't really have their hearts in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have their love, but not their hearts And so I think everybody wants to know how do you how do you reach their hearts?
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's lots of other ways other podcasts is in the book reader book
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll get those, but it's really important that it's also in the discipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the opportunity here to stack of this is when they are disobeying you, you are actually seeing where their hearts at, and if you can see where the hearts at, then you know how to tend to their hearts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only in the discipline, but afterwards.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, follow through on your discipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: point them to Jesus, pray with them and so forth afterwards.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in addition to that, now you are a team together to see what that challenge, that sin challenge they have in their life that we keep recurring and to pray about it, to teach biblical truth that now the husband goes, okay, I understand the challenges that exist in my home.
[SPEAKER_01]: because the wife is downloading to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also see them, but really wives are super helpful with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're with them more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to go to Scripture, the talks about selfishness, if that's the issue, or talks about obedience to parents, or obedience to God, or talks about how loving God is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what real love looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could go to all these wonderful Scriptures that are tending to their hearts!
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, yes, go on Saturday and have a breakfast with your daughter or you go to a ball game with your son.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not also as tender to the hearts, but if you only do those things, you're not really getting there.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's interesting, you and I were talking when we were preparing today's podcast episode about the importance of bringing up sewing and reaping.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we have this verse that we want to share with you in second Corinthians, nine, six.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Amela, Isaac read it in a second here.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I want to bring something up.
[SPEAKER_03]: This section is actually all about giving and being a cheerful giver.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there are many scriptures that we need to understand that there is also a spiritual,
[SPEAKER_03]: teaching or metaphor that is there for us to learn from in addition to what it is actually directly talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's talking about being a cheerful giver and sowing, you know, sparingly versus bound to the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: But as parents, we need to understand that if we are sparingly sowing with our kids, like meaning let's just say we're just checking off the box for discipline.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're not going through the process that's actually like,
[SPEAKER_03]: praying with them, helping them to understand that they're forgiven, and then that's not who they are.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not their identity.
[SPEAKER_03]: They can be a very kind person.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you start affirming them with the words that you're using because your words are a tree of life, like we just read, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And we don't want to break our child's spirit and be just all focused on the bad thing that they did, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because that would be just disappointing if we were just focusing so heavily on that one thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead, we need to point
[SPEAKER_03]: you're better than this, and you don't need to make that same decision again.
[SPEAKER_03]: If we so sparingly, and we stop at the discipline, then we're going to reap sparingly, and those kids are not going to have the depth of understanding of the actual gospel, because that's what discipleship is all about.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's about leading them in truth.
[SPEAKER_03]: to what the gospel is and why they need Jesus and helping them to actually experience what it's like to be in relationship with God through prayer and bringing things to Him and being honest about our heart issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that in my mind is like the foundation of a strong walk with God.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if you're just like sewing sparingly with discipline, then you're going to reap sparingly, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But then there's the, if you're willing to do the harder work, they'll, sometimes, longer work.
[SPEAKER_03]: The depth of conversation work, where there's true discipleship happening, then you're going to reap that.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's going to be a spiritual maturity to your kids, even at a young age that people are like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think would you read that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, second Corinthians 9-6, the point is this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whoever's so sparingly will also reap sparingly, whoever's so boundfully will also reap boundfully.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Angie just talked about the parenting side of sewing and reaping.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to your children, it's really important that your children experience sewing and reaping as they're being raised.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you largely are protecting them.
[SPEAKER_01]: from a lot of the challenges that could occur to them by their decisions, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So their provisions, taking care of the food, taking care of the shelter, all these things which you should do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they are not necessarily accurately experiencing sewing and reaping unless you were part of that process.
[SPEAKER_01]: So God is calling us to work on his behalf, to discipline our children, which are also his children.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's given us that jurisdiction and it consistently do what the Bible says, but to do it lovingly, to do it clearly, and to follow through always, and to disciple them, point them to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to do that, and if you do that, then they are experiencing repercussions from their poor decisions, and they need to experience that consistently and over a long period of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if parents don't do that, they give up, they only do it six out of ten times.
[SPEAKER_01]: The children often remember the four times you did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just the kind of the way a human nature is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they really need to experience sewing and reaping through your intentional parenting.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to just share a verse that I think is pretty powerful that might be a good unprecedented times to hear at the end of the podcast, and it's scripture memorization of verses that are going to teach your children the importance of having humble heart towards being disciplined.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's one, Proverbs 3 verses 11 and 12.
[SPEAKER_03]: It says, my son, do not despise the Lord's discipline or be weary of his reproof.
[SPEAKER_03]: for the Lord reproves him whom he loves as a father the son in whom he delights.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this is like a great verse to memorize, you know, another one that was at the very beginning of this, my son do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments for the length of days and years of life.
[SPEAKER_03]: and peace they will add to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is also giving you an opportunity to literally teach there is a sewing and a reaping.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is a spiritual law that none of us humans can ignore or like dodge in life and if we protect our kids like Isaac was saying from like the natural consequences in life all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, for example, friendships, being broken and we're constantly managing all the things and we're not letting them experience some of the hardships, then they may not learn those lessons and they may make even worse mistakes later that have bigger consequences that hurt even more people.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there is this need for us.
[SPEAKER_03]: God knows that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's why he is given us the job and duty to discipline our children.
[SPEAKER_03]: But again, it all goes back to don't get personally offended, mom's dads.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like your kid, they're human.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they said just like you did.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's just instead look at it as an opportunity for discipleship and for leading them to the Lord.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for joining us.