WEBVTT 00:07.085 --> 00:08.709 [SPEAKER_00]: and welcome to our show. 00:09.010 --> 00:11.335 [SPEAKER_00]: The shit no one tells you about writing. 00:12.077 --> 00:16.007 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by C.C. 00:16.067 --> 00:20.959 [SPEAKER_00]: Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary. 00:22.323 --> 00:23.064 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everyone. 00:23.345 --> 00:25.769 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to today's author's episode. 00:26.230 --> 00:29.776 [SPEAKER_00]: Today's guest is a research lawyer living in Toronto. 00:30.237 --> 00:32.281 [SPEAKER_00]: Venom Lake is her debut novel. 00:32.661 --> 00:35.286 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my pleasure to welcome Emma White. 00:35.306 --> 00:37.269 [SPEAKER_00]: Emma, welcome back to the show. 00:37.290 --> 00:39.213 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much Bianca. 00:39.373 --> 00:40.956 [SPEAKER_00]: I am so happy to be here. 00:41.577 --> 00:50.896 [SPEAKER_00]: it's so wonderful to have you here because it feels like a full circle moment and we will discuss that shortly for those of you who are not watching on YouTube. 00:51.317 --> 01:01.358 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm showing the cover of the book Venom Lake, very arresting cover and I'm going to read you the flat copy just that you have context for what we are talking about. 01:01.338 --> 01:09.449 [SPEAKER_00]: On a weekend get away for their true crime book club, four women retreat to the Soul Cottage on isolated snake-byte island. 01:09.830 --> 01:19.363 [SPEAKER_00]: But what was supposed to be a fun weekend of getting trashed on rosé and talking serial killers takes a dark turn when a member of the group is fan dead on the shore. 01:19.343 --> 01:21.846 [SPEAKER_00]: murdered by one of her supposed friends. 01:22.407 --> 01:27.333 [SPEAKER_00]: Under the surface there's turbulence in the group, blackmail, affairs and addiction. 01:27.814 --> 01:30.617 [SPEAKER_00]: Financial misconduct and missing husband. 01:31.158 --> 01:36.745 [SPEAKER_00]: All the women are hiding dangerous secrets, but how far are they willing to go to keep them? 01:37.226 --> 01:45.216 [SPEAKER_00]: The murder creates a dilemma for the three surviving book club members, report the death and have their own lives shredded by an 01:45.196 --> 01:49.503 [SPEAKER_00]: or use their true crime knowledge to stage their friends' disappearance on the lake. 01:49.944 --> 01:58.539 [SPEAKER_00]: The consequences of their decision will ripple backwards, creating new risks and threatening to unravel their entire net of lies. 01:58.579 --> 02:10.039 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay Emma, so you were one of the first querying authors that we had on-box 02:10.019 --> 02:21.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Please take us through your incredible journey to publication starting even before then if you need to because as writers We love some good backstory Sounds good. 02:21.334 --> 02:23.176 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can't believe it's been five years. 02:23.356 --> 02:24.958 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels impossible. 02:25.339 --> 02:32.428 [SPEAKER_01]: I started seriously writing back in 2020 very pandemic activity Taking it seriously. 02:32.508 --> 02:39.958 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been interested before and had this idea for a story but never had really spent the time 02:40.580 --> 02:48.231 [SPEAKER_01]: And so between 2020 and 2021, I wrote my first manuscript to is what I created on the shit no one tells you about writing. 02:48.672 --> 02:51.737 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we recorded an episode in June 2021. 02:52.277 --> 02:55.002 [SPEAKER_01]: And got a few full requests. 02:55.362 --> 03:02.973 [SPEAKER_01]: I got rejections for those full requests, which was devastating, because I didn't understand at the time, I thought you get a full request. 03:03.314 --> 03:04.556 [SPEAKER_01]: You've basically got an offer. 03:05.016 --> 03:05.437 [SPEAKER_01]: Not true. 03:05.677 --> 03:06.739 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was 03:07.124 --> 03:16.181 [SPEAKER_01]: That was an important learning curve, but what was really helpful was that the entire time that I was creating the first book I was working on the second manuscript. 03:16.201 --> 03:29.166 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wrote a second book, I would say 2022 to 2023, started creating in 2023 again, got a few full requests, got the same rejections back. 03:29.534 --> 03:32.557 [SPEAKER_01]: And in that same time, I've been working on my third. 03:32.577 --> 03:34.699 [SPEAKER_01]: So Vendon Lake is actually my third manuscript. 03:34.960 --> 03:38.143 [SPEAKER_01]: And I wrote that between 2023 to 2024. 03:38.243 --> 03:42.187 [SPEAKER_01]: I took a different approach with this one. 03:42.387 --> 03:44.750 [SPEAKER_01]: I went to conference in New York. 03:44.770 --> 03:45.691 [SPEAKER_01]: It's called thriller fast. 03:45.971 --> 03:54.580 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a huge conference for thriller writers, authors, readers, publishers, and they have an event called pitchfast, which I was very interested in. 03:55.015 --> 04:02.066 [SPEAKER_01]: because as anyone who's been in the query trenches knows, you feel like you're screaming into the void sometimes. 04:02.106 --> 04:04.750 [SPEAKER_01]: You're just sending things out, no response. 04:04.930 --> 04:07.614 [SPEAKER_01]: You almost just want that written rejection, so you know. 04:08.315 --> 04:19.993 [SPEAKER_01]: And so what pitchfast offered was an opportunity to face a face, do a pitch to literary agents, and to some editors with some of the smaller independent publishers. 04:20.277 --> 04:23.320 [SPEAKER_00]: But just before you proceed with that, take us through the mechanics. 04:23.501 --> 04:27.745 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you have to pay like per pitch per agent or editor? 04:28.026 --> 04:29.107 [SPEAKER_00]: Was it paid for? 04:29.127 --> 04:31.189 [SPEAKER_00]: Could you pitch to as many people as you liked? 04:31.329 --> 04:33.211 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you have to hand pick five? 04:33.351 --> 04:35.354 [SPEAKER_00]: What was their process like? 04:35.374 --> 04:35.954 [SPEAKER_01]: Great question. 04:36.175 --> 04:39.598 [SPEAKER_01]: So pitch first was an add on you paid for the conference. 04:40.039 --> 04:50.250 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I believe it was either a two or three hour period of time where all of these agents were set up at tables and you could pitch as many as you could in that time 04:50.737 --> 04:56.864 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I pitched non-stop and didn't take a break and I reached 12 people. 04:57.384 --> 04:58.305 [SPEAKER_01]: So that gives you an idea. 04:58.325 --> 04:59.967 [SPEAKER_01]: There are several hundred people there. 05:00.007 --> 05:06.775 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a good number of literary agents and editors there, but there were lineups at each desk. 05:07.095 --> 05:08.977 [SPEAKER_01]: Some agents had huge lines. 05:08.997 --> 05:10.299 [SPEAKER_01]: You kind of had to make a decision. 05:10.639 --> 05:13.082 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to spend 45 minutes, maybe pitching this 05:13.349 --> 05:16.493 [SPEAKER_01]: This person, or should I spread out my chances, picture more people? 05:16.653 --> 05:20.278 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a, I made a short list, a long list. 05:20.358 --> 05:22.121 [SPEAKER_01]: I had my, my people in mind. 05:22.221 --> 05:26.787 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to pivot on the day, some agents were there who I didn't know were gonna be there. 05:26.847 --> 05:29.430 [SPEAKER_01]: And some agents had long lines. 05:29.450 --> 05:31.153 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was kind of an in-the-moment decision. 05:31.353 --> 05:34.497 [SPEAKER_01]: And the idea was that you had, you were supposed to spend about three minutes. 05:34.730 --> 05:41.240 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so you had to have a really tight oral pitch and to leave enough time that they need to ask you some questions, express interest. 05:41.461 --> 05:50.735 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually that ended up being I would say about five minutes because it really was up to the agent or the editor to stop the person from talking and people get talking and want to keep talking about their book. 05:51.316 --> 05:57.666 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was it was a very intense time but it was so exciting to have real in-person 05:57.983 --> 06:00.026 [SPEAKER_01]: immediate feedback to a pitch. 06:00.688 --> 06:14.811 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I can talk a little bit about what that was like or well yeah I want to actually focus on that because I think a lot of people when they go into this face to face pictures kind of freeze up the nerves get the better of them. 06:14.791 --> 06:30.336 [SPEAKER_00]: think they think that they don't have to sort of put together a tight query like they're within writing because they're sitting face to face and so they tend to sort of ramble and go from tangents or perhaps fall over the agent or editor and be like oh god, I'd love you work whatever. 06:30.316 --> 06:40.286 [SPEAKER_00]: So, take us through preparing a folder to make sure that once you're sitting in front of them, you can just go go go go go go without the quilt. 06:40.466 --> 06:44.790 [SPEAKER_00]: There's always going to be noves, but I always say if you don't have noves, there's not much at stake. 06:44.890 --> 06:49.294 [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes you can harness your nerves to be your absolute best. 06:49.314 --> 06:53.258 [SPEAKER_00]: So, take us through how you prep for it and what you say. 06:54.099 --> 06:54.580 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 06:54.640 --> 06:56.261 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like to think of that as well. 06:56.301 --> 06:57.863 [SPEAKER_01]: Like nerves are exciting. 06:57.883 --> 07:00.205 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm trying to tell myself 07:00.370 --> 07:05.597 [SPEAKER_01]: So, absolutely, I got very good advice before the conference. 07:05.617 --> 07:14.048 [SPEAKER_01]: They did offer a preparation session, actually, anyone who was signed up for pitch fast, you could meet with a participating author who gave you some advice. 07:14.068 --> 07:21.778 [SPEAKER_01]: You could run your pitch by them and refine it a bit and I got good advice about being exactly what you said, very prepared. 07:21.958 --> 07:23.420 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a casual conversation. 07:23.760 --> 07:28.386 [SPEAKER_01]: You really do have a minute of their time to interest them with your pitch. 07:28.619 --> 07:30.844 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I treated it like I would a query letter. 07:31.084 --> 07:38.420 [SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, my oral pitch is not word-for-word, but almost word-for-word, what ended up being the jacket copy for gun and leg. 07:38.881 --> 07:48.602 [SPEAKER_01]: So I really wanted to have following the books with hooks formula, the title, the word count, the comps, a really tight plot. 07:49.072 --> 07:49.593 [SPEAKER_01]: summary. 07:49.833 --> 07:53.279 [SPEAKER_01]: And I practiced it until I could do it in my sleep. 07:53.499 --> 08:08.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Two years later, I don't know it off the top anymore, but I wanted, and I was timing myself, I wanted to get it to a minute, so I could comfortably deliver it, that I wouldn't be fumbling with my notes, that I went, oh, I meant to say this, I meant to say that it was there, and then that would leave room for discussion with agents. 08:09.153 --> 08:15.002 [SPEAKER_01]: which was ultimately really important because they did have questions, oh, you say it's multi-POV, what does that mean? 08:15.143 --> 08:20.211 [SPEAKER_01]: What, you know, there was interest based on questions we had after the pitch. 08:20.251 --> 08:22.815 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was really important to leave time for that discussion. 08:23.816 --> 08:27.262 [SPEAKER_00]: Incredible, okay, so can you take us through that pitch? 08:27.282 --> 08:28.023 [SPEAKER_00]: So we can hear it. 08:29.005 --> 08:35.515 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, it's going to be a bit repetitive from the jacket copy, but the difference is kind of in the intro. 08:36.170 --> 08:40.518 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've just sit down, agent, so nice to meet you, get right into it. 08:40.718 --> 08:46.368 [SPEAKER_01]: My debut novel, Venom Lake, is a multi-POV psychological thriller, complete at 75,000 words. 08:47.009 --> 08:56.406 [SPEAKER_01]: Venom Lake features a toxic friend group, reminiscent of May Cobb's The Hunting Lives, and contains a true crime podcast element, similar to Lisa Jules, none of this is true. 08:57.297 --> 09:02.304 [SPEAKER_01]: on a retreat for her true crime book club, Marda and her girlfriends are the only people on Snakebite Island. 09:02.905 --> 09:09.595 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're always supposed to be a fun weekend of getting trashed on Rosé and talking serial killers, takes a dark turn when Marda finds one of the women dead on the shore. 09:10.216 --> 09:12.319 [SPEAKER_01]: Murdered by one of her supposed friends. 09:13.060 --> 09:19.269 [SPEAKER_01]: Under the surface, those turbulence in the group, Blackmail, affairs, and addiction, financial misconduct, and missing husband. 09:19.870 --> 09:24.216 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone is hiding dangerous secrets, but how far are they willing to go to keep them? 09:24.955 --> 09:35.311 [SPEAKER_01]: The murdered creates a dilemma for the three surviving book club members, support the death, and have their own lives, shredder divine investigation, or use their true crime knowledge to stage their friends' disappearance on the lake. 09:35.992 --> 09:39.938 [SPEAKER_01]: Under Dures and against her better judgment, murder agrees to help conceal the crime. 09:40.538 --> 09:47.629 [SPEAKER_01]: But she comes to regret her decision as the effects of the cover-up ripple outwards, creating new risks and threatening to unravel their net of lies. 09:48.611 --> 09:49.512 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the pitch. 09:50.234 --> 09:59.247 [SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible and you know you've got a good pitch when most of it makes it way on to the left half of the list be honest because most times publishers completely rewrite that. 09:59.728 --> 10:06.378 [SPEAKER_00]: So okay, so who was the agent who expressed interest with in more than one, how did that happen? 10:07.660 --> 10:12.487 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a really successful and was very lucky at pitch fast. 10:12.507 --> 10:17.895 [SPEAKER_01]: I did get six full requests, three partial requests and then three requests for 10:18.398 --> 10:19.520 [SPEAKER_01]: letter in 10 pages. 10:19.941 --> 10:21.784 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was really encouraging. 10:21.984 --> 10:25.990 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, ultimately, it was kind of a nice story because I've gone all the way to New York. 10:26.071 --> 10:26.872 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm from Toronto. 10:26.912 --> 10:27.633 [SPEAKER_01]: I live in Toronto. 10:28.074 --> 10:32.281 [SPEAKER_01]: And the pitchfast hide actually lots of agents there in person. 10:32.301 --> 10:34.965 [SPEAKER_01]: They also had a zoo room for agents as a zoo room. 10:35.005 --> 10:38.150 [SPEAKER_01]: So, so agents who couldn't either in person would be on zoom. 10:38.170 --> 10:41.115 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was the same format put on the earphones, talked them for three minutes. 10:41.467 --> 10:46.948 [SPEAKER_01]: My agent, who I signed with, is Carolyn Ford from Transatlantic Agency, based in Toronto. 10:47.048 --> 10:52.911 [SPEAKER_01]: So I went all the way to New York to meet my Toronto base agent, Over Zoom, and we had a nice laugh about that. 10:53.245 --> 11:12.067 [SPEAKER_00]: That's hilarious, but again, you know, we now in our sub stack on Tuesdays have got a segment called Meet Your Dream Agent and a lot of them are saying where they get their clients from is it from pictures is it from conferences is it the slash file and it's so interesting to see each of them in terms of the breakdown. 11:12.688 --> 11:20.097 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it is possible to make more of an impression when you are sitting across from an agent and they can see your face and you have 11:20.077 --> 11:25.871 [SPEAKER_00]: rather than than just the slush pal, were the questions that Carolyn asked you afterwards? 11:26.493 --> 11:29.600 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I am she asked, I'm trying to recall now. 11:29.620 --> 11:35.976 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe she asked a little bit about the points of view, because I did pitch it as multi-POV, how many, 11:36.361 --> 11:40.285 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, first person, third person, I believe she asked me how that was structured. 11:40.565 --> 11:49.514 [SPEAKER_01]: And then she had some more personal questions about me and what I did for my day job and how I thought about writing as a career, you know, thrillers. 11:49.734 --> 11:55.120 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there is a very successful formula to do a book a year and was that something I was interested in. 11:55.160 --> 12:01.626 [SPEAKER_01]: So we actually had, she had a few questions about the pitch itself, but then also just a few personal questions from me of, 12:01.994 --> 12:06.878 [SPEAKER_01]: how I was thinking about writing as a career and kind of how seriously I was taking it. 12:07.859 --> 12:08.300 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. 12:08.340 --> 12:18.168 [SPEAKER_00]: So for those of you of our listeners who are going to do these pitch events, remember to have that in your back pocket, in case you get us that and then don't stumble on that. 12:18.509 --> 12:21.471 [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean that's four years, three manuscripts. 12:21.531 --> 12:23.553 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you said like 90 rejections. 12:24.174 --> 12:24.774 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 12:24.794 --> 12:29.959 [SPEAKER_00]: We were both of those other 12:30.209 --> 12:30.850 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 12:30.890 --> 12:36.560 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm psychological thrillers, all three of them, and it's the genre I am most passionate about. 12:37.121 --> 12:39.726 [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, at least can't imagine in writing any other genre. 12:39.886 --> 12:51.627 [SPEAKER_01]: It was playing with different formats, different, you know, is it multi-POV, single-POV, structure, linear, non-linear, before I kind of found my stride with this one. 12:52.400 --> 12:55.864 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you find that you learnt anything from the rejections? 12:55.964 --> 13:02.813 [SPEAKER_00]: Those 90s something rejections, because again, we're saying that agents do not have the time to give personalized feedback. 13:02.833 --> 13:16.770 [SPEAKER_00]: They most of the time, they just like, thank you, but no, was there anything that you got during those 90 rejections that helped you or was it just the case of, by book three, you'd learnt some things and you were a better writer or perhaps an amalgamation? 13:17.813 --> 13:29.484 [SPEAKER_01]: amalgamation I think is the best way to put it on I think a few of the full requests I received for the first and second manuscript because I actually didn't query the third manuscript traditionally. 13:29.685 --> 13:43.618 [SPEAKER_01]: I purely took a pitch fast and ended the oral pitch but the reductions I accumulated were on the first two manuscripts and the through line on which I think was helpful was pacing 13:43.919 --> 13:51.109 [SPEAKER_01]: in any kind of non-linear or dual timeline, everything needing to be equally compelling. 13:51.550 --> 13:54.875 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was something for me to really pay attention to with manuscript three. 13:54.975 --> 14:03.708 [SPEAKER_01]: Was in the first two manuscripts, pacing had been an issue, and not having equal interest in either both characters or in both timelines. 14:04.248 --> 14:12.340 [SPEAKER_01]: So trying to have a more even-handed approach, but I find pacing is very hard for keeping things even extremely challenging. 14:12.556 --> 14:13.938 [SPEAKER_01]: something I'm working on today. 14:15.319 --> 14:23.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah pacing and tension and a lot of people think it's just for thrillers it's not it's for for pretty much any kind of genre. 14:23.348 --> 14:28.054 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay so before I move on to next question we're just going to have a break for a word from our sponsor. 14:32.479 --> 14:40.808 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay so then after you signed with Carolyn how much editing did you do between the two of you before going 14:42.188 --> 14:45.654 [SPEAKER_01]: So we did one round of edits. 14:45.994 --> 14:48.719 [SPEAKER_01]: I signed with her in June of 2024. 14:49.340 --> 14:56.652 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, or early July, she came back to me with her notes. 14:56.992 --> 15:00.518 [SPEAKER_01]: So there were a few things that she thought could be strengthened before we went out. 15:01.179 --> 15:05.867 [SPEAKER_01]: I worked on those over the summer and we took it out in early September. 15:06.235 --> 15:24.193 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a one one one substant of round and then we wanted to wait till the beginning of fall when it was people are back from vacation and so then we went out on southern September and Very very fortunate sold it a few weeks later to Harper Collins Canada in October 2024. 15:25.220 --> 15:27.905 [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing, normally that weight is the worst. 15:28.065 --> 15:30.950 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know some authors who finally got a yes. 15:31.271 --> 15:35.699 [SPEAKER_00]: Something like seven or eight months after that went out to editors. 15:36.741 --> 15:38.384 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, that's always excruciating. 15:38.424 --> 15:40.868 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I'm glad you didn't have to go through that. 15:41.189 --> 15:47.059 [SPEAKER_00]: And then after that, with your hopper Collins editor, where they've further extensive edits, what happened there? 15:47.663 --> 15:50.828 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we did a few rounds of edits. 15:51.148 --> 15:54.854 [SPEAKER_01]: We had a couple of phone calls as well, which I found. 15:54.914 --> 16:01.884 [SPEAKER_01]: We did an introductory meeting to talk about her larger vision for the book in areas she thought needed work. 16:01.904 --> 16:06.551 [SPEAKER_01]: And then based on that, she sent me her editorial letter. 16:07.071 --> 16:10.937 [SPEAKER_01]: But then that was really nice to combo that with a phone call to talk through that. 16:11.407 --> 16:18.277 [SPEAKER_01]: Fortunately, I had a really excellent editorial experience where our visions really aligned, and I felt like her suggestions made everything stronger. 16:18.297 --> 16:28.432 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say we did one really big round of edits, and then a couple more rounds of smaller edits after those large ones went through. 16:28.472 --> 16:35.963 [SPEAKER_01]: And I will say as well, though, I was so lucky with the sale in Canada not to have to wait. 16:36.213 --> 16:38.776 [SPEAKER_01]: But I did get to experience that excruciating. 16:38.937 --> 16:42.862 [SPEAKER_01]: Why does anyone want to buy this on the US side of things? 16:42.962 --> 16:50.932 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we just kept getting reductions in the US and didn't sell it there until late 2025. 16:51.313 --> 16:55.538 [SPEAKER_01]: So at very different experiences selling it into different places. 16:55.940 --> 17:00.187 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what I love about the book is it's clearly based in Toronto, right? 17:00.267 --> 17:00.948 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Canada. 17:01.649 --> 17:07.759 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, were the Americans wanting the setting to be changed at all? 17:07.799 --> 17:08.160 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no. 17:09.202 --> 17:14.029 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get any setting feedback, but I can imagine that that may have been a part of it. 17:14.250 --> 17:20.119 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what's interesting as well is that it's going to be published under a different name in the UK and in the US. 17:20.320 --> 17:22.724 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's going to be published. 17:22.744 --> 17:23.044 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it? 17:23.648 --> 17:52.862 [SPEAKER_01]: they are calling it the wives of murder club and so to me i also read that as i think we have a big leak culture in Canada i think you know being an isolated island on a wild lake is a maybe a more familiar setting and so this was not something that was going to resonate with UK or american audiences as much perhaps i'm speculating this was never told to you explicitly but i think that could be tied to as well with it being a very 17:53.180 --> 18:06.141 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we've got so many amazing Canadian authors who are basing stories in Canada, which is wonderful, and so it's great to see more and more stories set here, as opposed to, you know, as being forced to sit them somewhere else. 18:06.662 --> 18:19.963 [SPEAKER_00]: So talking about the book itself, it's really, really tough to write multi-pv characters when the characters, for example, are similar, because here you've got 18:19.943 --> 18:28.535 [SPEAKER_00]: So, speak a bit about how you differentiate to them in the redest mind, because that's something that a lot of emerging authors struggle with. 18:28.555 --> 18:32.921 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there are, like you said, they're all women and it's mainly three. 18:32.941 --> 18:34.964 [SPEAKER_01]: We have three main characters. 18:35.205 --> 18:40.051 [SPEAKER_01]: One character gets one chapter of four, but we're largely in the hands of three of them. 18:40.332 --> 18:48.904 [SPEAKER_01]: And part of the fun for me and the big reason why I like writing psychological thrillers is because I think people are, 18:49.137 --> 18:51.800 [SPEAKER_01]: people are fascinating, character is fascinating. 18:52.421 --> 18:54.203 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm a pancer, I'm not a platter. 18:54.644 --> 19:00.951 [SPEAKER_01]: I write by trying to get into these characters minds and figuring out what they would do. 19:01.712 --> 19:04.456 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually didn't know I knew there was going to be four of them. 19:04.616 --> 19:06.198 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew one of them was going to be murdered. 19:06.658 --> 19:09.061 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't actually know who had killed her. 19:09.081 --> 19:13.627 [SPEAKER_01]: A while I was writing it up to a certain point because I wanted to give them each motive. 19:13.667 --> 19:18.773 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to make it possible that anyone could have done it. 19:19.411 --> 19:26.359 [SPEAKER_01]: what I had fun with when writing this was each character, I would just kind of play as her. 19:26.559 --> 19:28.942 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, how would she react in this situation? 19:29.443 --> 19:30.764 [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to this event. 19:30.784 --> 19:32.726 [SPEAKER_01]: They're interpreting this event very differently. 19:32.766 --> 19:34.128 [SPEAKER_01]: What's this one focus on? 19:34.228 --> 19:35.409 [SPEAKER_01]: What's that one focused on? 19:35.770 --> 19:42.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think that helped me develop what hopefully comes across as a unique voice for each character. 19:42.732 --> 19:44.656 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very, very much so. 19:44.876 --> 19:48.644 [SPEAKER_00]: And as a pencer, I'm like applauding you because that's hard. 19:48.664 --> 19:55.037 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not because as a, I was a, I didn't know who died, who killed them while they were killed and it works out. 19:55.358 --> 19:59.526 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not very efficient, but it does work out in terms of, 19:59.506 --> 20:09.438 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we sometimes think of the unreliable narrator being first term narrative, like a first person point of view, but each of these women has got secrets. 20:10.138 --> 20:27.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as you're writing them in the closed third person, you have got to be aware of those secrets and you can drop curiosity seeds for the readers so that the readers theorizing what they are, but you've really got to be in control of the 20:27.839 --> 20:36.187 [SPEAKER_00]: When was that something that you've found in the rewrites or was it something that even as a pencil you were able to figure out in first draft? 20:37.728 --> 20:46.297 [SPEAKER_01]: I think some of it was there in first draft but largely it's in the rewrites because I had to go back through and make things more consistent. 20:46.877 --> 20:54.184 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if I said everyone up to be the killer, you know, not everyone is the killer, so I had to maybe dial some of them back a little and then amp. 20:54.485 --> 20:57.709 [SPEAKER_01]: amp up the more murderous tendencies of others. 20:57.929 --> 21:00.032 [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of it, a lot of it is in the rewrite. 21:00.052 --> 21:01.574 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually love editing. 21:01.594 --> 21:07.281 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you're asking about the editing process with my agent and my editor, it is my favorite thing to do. 21:07.521 --> 21:10.345 [SPEAKER_01]: And being confronted with a blank page is very scary. 21:10.545 --> 21:12.267 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be fun once you get into the swing of it. 21:12.427 --> 21:14.210 [SPEAKER_01]: But I love editing. 21:14.230 --> 21:18.455 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say a lot of that recalibration came in the rewrite. 21:18.675 --> 21:22.500 [SPEAKER_01]: One site figured out what was actually happening and who was doing 21:23.088 --> 21:26.213 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I used to hate edits, used to despise them. 21:26.314 --> 21:27.997 [SPEAKER_00]: Like my first draft, that's what I loved. 21:28.077 --> 21:29.439 [SPEAKER_00]: And now I've trained myself. 21:30.140 --> 21:31.463 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it's the opposite way. 21:31.483 --> 21:34.288 [SPEAKER_00]: And I hate first drafts. 21:34.528 --> 21:36.011 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love the editing phase. 21:36.351 --> 21:48.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Something you do as well, that like a lot of people get cautioned against, but you did it really well, is that if you're gonna multiply the characters, don't have them discussing the same scene. 21:48.232 --> 21:56.604 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, have one scene told from one character's perspective and they move on to a second scene and that could be told from another character's perspective. 21:57.005 --> 22:04.677 [SPEAKER_00]: But you discuss like certain events from different characters perspectives while still making it interesting. 22:04.737 --> 22:07.120 [SPEAKER_00]: The read is not going, I really know this. 22:07.501 --> 22:08.542 [SPEAKER_00]: I already know this. 22:08.582 --> 22:14.391 [SPEAKER_00]: Why are we going over this ground? 22:14.624 --> 22:27.182 [SPEAKER_00]: Your approach to that to ensure that the reader was never bored, that even though it's the same event, they're getting completely different information in terms of plot motives characterisation. 22:27.533 --> 22:28.755 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good question. 22:28.795 --> 22:43.515 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that was something I had to work on, certainly with editing because I think when I wrote the first draft, it was very messy and I think that it was probably a bit too repetitive because I was feeling out how each character would have experienced different events. 22:43.736 --> 22:48.242 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that part of it was trying to 22:48.577 --> 22:50.080 [SPEAKER_01]: segment different event. 22:50.200 --> 22:58.274 [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes picking up in the same scene, but just like a minute later, then what we've already kind of experienced through a different character's eyes. 22:58.354 --> 23:02.822 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're still right with them in that scene, but we're, you know, we're moving it forward. 23:03.523 --> 23:07.129 [SPEAKER_01]: And then for the, I think it's the, especially the first three chapters. 23:07.149 --> 23:12.218 [SPEAKER_01]: We have all three women experience their first meeting of their, of their true crime book club. 23:12.458 --> 23:13.420 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is, 23:14.378 --> 23:26.573 [SPEAKER_01]: trying to not repeat any of the details I've given from the previous character's perspective and really dive into the interiority of the character who's experiencing it. 23:26.714 --> 23:29.457 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a great place I think to drop those curiosity seeds. 23:30.078 --> 23:32.821 [SPEAKER_01]: She's not thinking about actually what's happening at this book club meeting. 23:32.901 --> 23:35.244 [SPEAKER_01]: She's thinking about what she experienced that afternoon. 23:35.264 --> 23:42.073 [SPEAKER_01]: So while we're actually at the same event, we're getting completely different information from her because what's happening at the meeting is just kind of 23:42.509 --> 23:45.975 [SPEAKER_01]: a spark to make her think about the things she's actually worried about. 23:46.676 --> 23:48.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, excellent, excellent advice there. 23:49.220 --> 23:52.105 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the podcast sort of interstitials. 23:52.165 --> 23:59.657 [SPEAKER_00]: You have a transcripts from a podcast, was that they're all along the beginning, was that something they came with the rewrites? 24:00.835 --> 24:05.924 [SPEAKER_01]: The podcast was there from the beginning, but it appeared in a very different way. 24:06.104 --> 24:12.435 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I initially wrote it, I had the podcast starting in the latter half of the book. 24:12.635 --> 24:24.255 [SPEAKER_01]: So actually after they get back from the cottage and everything that happens there, then I picked up the podcast because I needed a way to kind of convey information a bit more objectively that wasn't coming from any of these three characters. 24:24.856 --> 24:26.218 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the great, 24:26.435 --> 24:39.336 [SPEAKER_01]: pieces of advice I got from my aunt, Maureen White, she's a brilliant writer as well, she's just fantastic, she's gives me great advice and she was like, why are we starting so late with this podcast? 24:39.817 --> 24:40.117 [SPEAKER_01]: Get it? 24:40.217 --> 24:49.152 [SPEAKER_01]: It's got a flow through the entire book and so that was one of the, that was a great note that I received on how to how to integrate that more into the story. 24:49.823 --> 25:04.001 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is so important, you know, if people are using newspaper headlines or podcast transcripts or, you know, it does need to flow throughout the book because if you suddenly get it in the second half, it does feel a bit weird. 25:04.341 --> 25:10.168 [SPEAKER_00]: Same goes for like mostly alternating characters because people are attached to the character they meet first. 25:10.348 --> 25:18.058 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you have a whole bunch of image and chapters and then suddenly we move on to somebody else that can feel disorientating. 25:18.038 --> 25:20.841 [SPEAKER_00]: it was great the way you balanced all of that. 25:21.342 --> 25:28.550 [SPEAKER_00]: Was there anything that surprised you as a debut author that you wish you'd known before the whole process? 25:28.770 --> 25:29.511 [SPEAKER_00]: I know the book. 25:29.691 --> 25:30.593 [SPEAKER_00]: When is the book up? 25:31.774 --> 25:33.396 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 25:33.416 --> 25:36.359 [SPEAKER_00]: So it hasn't come out yet fully while we're taping this. 25:36.519 --> 25:38.722 [SPEAKER_00]: For our listeners, we're quite far ahead. 25:38.742 --> 25:39.923 [SPEAKER_00]: We're taping this in April. 25:40.244 --> 25:41.445 [SPEAKER_00]: But where you are now? 25:41.565 --> 25:47.472 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything that has surprised you or that you wish you'd known or that you wish you could tell other debut authors? 25:48.835 --> 26:07.131 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I should have been surprised because the information is out there that publishing moves really slowly and yet I was still surprised at just how how extended the timelines were so you know selling the book in October 2024 it's coming out in 2026 I was with surprise that it would take that long. 26:07.499 --> 26:14.530 [SPEAKER_01]: and then just the multiple rounds of edits, I think it was interesting and if it's surprising to find out how many people are involved. 26:14.550 --> 26:23.625 [SPEAKER_01]: So suddenly it wasn't just with my editor anymore, but there's the copy editing team and there's multiple people there and then there's the cover and there's multiple people on those emails. 26:23.685 --> 26:30.756 [SPEAKER_01]: So really getting to people behind the curtain of, this is an industry and it's a business and there are lots of people involved in this. 26:31.090 --> 26:40.003 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was, even though I don't think I should have been surprised, I still was a bit, yeah, to find out how it really works was very interesting. 26:40.540 --> 26:42.843 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for me, the worst is the hurry up and wait. 26:42.863 --> 26:45.867 [SPEAKER_00]: So you'll wait for 10 months here, nothing from anybody. 26:45.887 --> 26:50.113 [SPEAKER_00]: And then suddenly, you'll get from three different people who need something within the next week. 26:50.173 --> 26:53.578 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that was the part that I struggled with. 26:53.778 --> 26:55.620 [SPEAKER_00]: Emma, it's been so lovely chatting with you. 26:55.720 --> 27:08.117 [SPEAKER_00]: I do want to give a shout out to Tara, so that's the Toronto area, woman authors, Lydia Laceby, runs that, and we get together every sort of two to three months. 27:08.097 --> 27:20.074 [SPEAKER_00]: And I saw Emma at one of those recently, and if you are near Toronto, it is a wonderful way to meet other emerging authors to meet published authors and to just find a sense of community. 27:20.474 --> 27:26.983 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can find tower on Instagram and I'm pretty sure there is a website as well. 27:26.963 --> 27:28.125 [SPEAKER_00]: So, take a look at that. 27:28.585 --> 27:30.609 [SPEAKER_00]: Emma, we wish you all the luck with the book. 27:30.669 --> 27:32.612 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm holding it up again, Venom Lake. 27:33.112 --> 27:36.437 [SPEAKER_00]: For those of you in Canada, remember it's going to be a different title in the US. 27:37.038 --> 27:39.843 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to link to it on a bookshop.org affiliate page. 27:39.903 --> 27:44.870 [SPEAKER_00]: If you get it there, you support the podcast and an independent bookstore at the same time. 27:45.231 --> 27:46.693 [SPEAKER_00]: Good luck with it, Emma. 27:46.825 --> 27:49.733 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much Bianca, and thank you for having me back on the podcast. 27:50.455 --> 27:52.320 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's it for today's episode. 27:52.721 --> 27:54.446 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show. 27:54.466 --> 27:56.211 [SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, keep at it. 27:56.552 --> 27:59.299 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, it just takes one yes.