[SPEAKER_03]: I was about to say I saw Lena Dunham in concert last night.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow did she play her big hits?
[SPEAKER_03]: She played all her biggest hits.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like self-effacing, confessional, spoken word.
[SPEAKER_03]: One could say.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she did an amazing job.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is not a concert.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just her doing a reading from her latest book, fame sick, a memoir, which I haven't read, but I got a free copy because the tickets to this thing were freaking expensive.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she read an excerpt from her memoir and it was genuinely so gripping.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, we were kind of like, LOL, I think I spotted a single person of color in the audience.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, every single girl moved to a variation of Lena Dunham.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, she's shaped a generation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and like me and my other half Indian friend Maya were both like over the token BOC of this audience.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, how does that feel like being in high school again?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I can see that.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it was genuinely incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's her reading and then she got interviewed by Alisha from girls.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna go with his name Andrew.
[SPEAKER_03]: Andrew Reynolds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Andrew Reynolds, who is a genius and saying his little Broadway song.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was very like um
[SPEAKER_03]: And they had these like emotional moments where they both kind of like cried and hug each other and he was like, I'm sorry, I wasn't there for you during all of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was just so touching, it felt like such a special experience and so intimate even though I was in an audience of like 2,000 people at BAM.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone was laughing the entire time like I was cackling.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's just such a magnetic person.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is so much like a neat talent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wish she had continued acting honestly because she was, and I'm because they acknowledge it yesterday because recently I've been like lean it on and was an amazing actor.
[SPEAKER_03]: And no one talks about that part of everything, but yesterday he was like she doesn't get her roses for being an incredible actor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did she ever win anything for girls?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I know she was nominated, but did she ever win?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was sure, hope so.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I don't think it would be for acting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it was probably for like production or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Directors Guild of America, outstanding directing, comedy series.
[SPEAKER_03]: She received several Emmy Award nominations, two dual golden globes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think watching too much as we've, I think we discussed on a previous episode, but like watching too much and realizing that every time she was on screen, we're the only times that I was compelled.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was when I realized that she's like a genuinely amazing actress because she can really deliver her dialogue in this really compelling way.
[SPEAKER_03]: But anyways, it was so special.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very jealous.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know she's doing I think a similar thing in London, but I did not get my shit
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like I would be so inspired.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm not gonna say where she lives in London I actually know almost exactly where she lives because someone I know Know someone else who has like seen her Don't put that in You have been doxed.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're just funny because she joked about how she was like one of the times that I accidentally put Jumaima Kirk's number on my story on Instagram and she was like it's still the same number So maybe this is like payback
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's karma, but what I was gonna say is someone saw her on the bus and the person telling the story was like, yeah, my friend's all Lena done him on the bus and I thought that she was saying that her friend thanked Lena Dunham and I was like, oh, me too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would do the same thing, but no, she was saying that Lena Dunham thanked the driver, which also loved that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, thank you both, Driver?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes!
[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just trend on Australian TikTok or whatever, where they would go, or maybe pre-tech talk honestly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was pre-tech talk, where they would go up to bus driver and be like, thank you for striving, but really obnoxiously.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes, she did that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Every time I think the bus driver, I say the same thing in my head.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were also kind of talking mad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, they were talking mad shit, but they were definitely a throwing shade at Adam Driver, which was fascinating and then Andrew Reynolds was like, yeah, I dated Andrew Cooper during the run of the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Dill was written to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, is this his older boyfriend?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like the new tanker.
[SPEAKER_00]: But wait, yeah, there's so much tea coming now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, one, she's sort of acknowledging the fact that maybe Jank, maybe Jack Antanoff and Lord, maybe had no fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, like Adam Driver went to Julliard, I'm sure he's insufferable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's not kid ourselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Julliard and then Julliard, the combo of Julliard and then maybe you're crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: My god, nightmare.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go say nightmare blood rotation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Guess just me an out of driver.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you see all Julia dance major.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh Jesus, guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I be completely honest with something?
[SPEAKER_03]: I've never cared about anything less than like Lord's romantic life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't care about Lord's be honest like I don't give a fuck about her as a celebrity.
[SPEAKER_03]: I liked
[SPEAKER_03]: Her album when I was in high school, but like since then every time she comes up I'm kind of like you don't know about the power point.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's such a thing What is the power point?
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jack-Antonov produced mellow drama Lord sophomore album.
[SPEAKER_00]: We came out when she was like 19 or they made it when she was 19 and they made it While she was basically staying at his and Lena's house in New York for like the summer
[SPEAKER_00]: and following that, Lena Dunham and Jackie Antonoff broke up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Lord, who had been like really involved in this like whole Taylor Swift, Lena Dunham, like friend group thing, suddenly like state parted ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously like that was also kind of consumed in this whole like weird squad era for Taylor Swift and like all these friendships that's like what was genuine and what wasn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: But people were always like, that's kind of weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was so close with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now they don't work together.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's not friends with Lena done a many more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so someone made this like viral PowerPoint.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was all this evidence compiled of like melodrama is actually an album that Lord made about her weird affair with Jack Antonov while she was having it with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: After she broke up with her adult boyfriend that she had when she was a teenager for six years.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was with this like grown man for like all of her teen years, it's really weird.
[SPEAKER_03]: None of it seems particularly shocking because she seems, it sounds like she's famous for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm kind of like...
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really know who else did she do this with?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember seeing all this constantly seeing stuff in which I, again, did not care about about Lord sleeping with people's boyfriends.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like, I just don't, I just don't, I just don't find her very interesting figure personally.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where's like, Lena done and like watching, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I usually don't care about memoirs very much and especially not celebrity memoirs, but this feels so like, we know how much she struggled during this time, but it's like actually crazy thinking about what this person went through
[SPEAKER_03]: The fact that she continued to put out really high-quality work in the midst of being so insanely scrutinized and like belittled.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she and Andrew Reynolds talk about how on the set of girls they just didn't talk about what was going on with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was kind of like a unspoken, just like let's not bring it up because we don't want to like ruin the vibe for anyone including her.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like she was just like going through all of this and still choosing to be like naked on screen and having sex and like
[SPEAKER_03]: embodying this character who was unlikable even though that's not really like what her actual personality is and it was just I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited to read it personally Well, I think also to be someone with such a singular voice and what is now like such an influential and iconic voice, but have that voice be so scrutinized and criticized and like just hated by the public and yet can trying to continue and make
[SPEAKER_00]: impactful work in that exact voice must have been such a struggle.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, how do I articulate this things in this like almost God-given gift that I have for articulating them all the while knowing that people are going to tear that apart and they hate it?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's just like she's kind of so singular and I'm so happy that she's finally getting to like embrace her qualities as a writer and as a storyteller again.
[SPEAKER_03]: She has such an act for storytelling, like the way that she was just speaking off the cuff last night was so profoundly funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: In a way that I was like, you're just able to string words together in such a funny way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's so culturally fluent.
[SPEAKER_03]: She can go high low so quickly and easily and it was kind of interesting also seeing the crowd because I felt like some of the girls got it and some of the girls did not get it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was like an interesting to kind of see the divide.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, interesting to be a girl that wouldn't get it and spend, you know, well, because it's so massive.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think girls are just so mainstream that it's like, everyone watches girls, especially if you live in New York, it's like kind of standard practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it feels like Lena Dunham comes from such a class of neurotic intellectuals that it's like, she's kind of in viewing her work with that, but not everyone's gonna pick up on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, it was interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I've experienced girls almost through the lens of the girls
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we have the experience of being like precocious 14, 15-year-olds watching this show and like not getting all the references and then getting them all now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so maybe that's, it's, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's family but it's also like, it is a bit of a you had to be there thing with girls sometimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, it feels similar to me with like people not picking up on like the inherent gainess of sex in the city.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you're just like a partner being just like a hag.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm showing up to bigs of apartment and being like dead.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's high and people like making that into a meme.
[SPEAKER_03]: People are like editing it as like a horror film or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, they're like she's so creepy.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of putting it within the realm of like heteronormative like dating culture bullshit, but
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you're similar to that, like girls sometimes, it's so easy to miss.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes the girls you gotta get it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, it's kind of like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the girls you don't, don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you hear that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And speaking of girls who get it, I'm Hannah, and I'm Mia.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is Rehash, a podcast about the social media phenomenon that strike and nerve in our culture only to be quickly forgotten.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we think are due for a revisiting.
[SPEAKER_00]: This season is part two of a loose, no pun intended, history of sex on the internet.
[SPEAKER_00]: This symbiosis of our two most basic instincts, innovation, and getting off.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like our show and want to hear more from us, you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash rehash podcast where we have monthly bonus episodes, weekly mini episodes, and early access to our regular programming.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't want to join the Patreon, feel free to rate and reveal us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts because that helps us out a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, since moving to the UK, I've been on the receiving end of a lot of, like, really bold comments about my accent.
[SPEAKER_00]: People feel very at liberty to say stuff like, oh, I would.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can't be attracted to someone with a North American accent, or people have told me that the way I say certain things like just sounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: trashier, but probably the craziest without a doubt came from a guy that I was actually seeing.
[SPEAKER_00]: He told me that my accent reminded him of porn, because everyone in porn is usually American.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I still don't really know what to make of that specific comment.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the moment I did find it quite fascinating, I guess because you don't really counter that many British people in porn, or at least like, I don't know, the more I thought about it was like, I guess there aren't a lot of British accents in porn, then I was like, we're North American and England has such a distinct cultural industry.
[SPEAKER_00]: for itself that surely maybe that would extend to porn, but I was like, I guess not, I guess there aren't any British porn stars, how fascinating, what does this say?
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, only a few weeks later, I found myself completely corrected as I was out of party and I walked in on a debate about Bonnie Blue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I out where you were aware of Bonnie Blue when I first suggested this episode?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, straight up, I had no idea what you were talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you were referring to Ashley Madison, which also came up, and I was like, surely there can't be two websites that are called two first names.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess blue isn't a first name.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_03]: But of, no, I had not heard of her, and I was quite shocked to find out who she was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I basically walked in on a debate about a stunt that she pulled that we will be talking about a bit more later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was shocked too, and she seemed to already at this point be a household
[SPEAKER_00]: I say here, while I record from Toronto, I've since come home for a trip, but I have to say like I'm really excited to potentially introduce her to North American listeners.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a fun cultural exchange, if you will.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me get into her background a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lay it on me, Mama.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bonnie Blue is a 27-year-old adult content creator and probably one of the most reviled women in the United Kingdom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's more reviled her or Camilla Parker Bulls?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think that Bonnie Blue might have honestly your welcome Camilla.
[SPEAKER_00]: She might have taken that honor from her.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's about time, I feel like.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think someone needs to take a load.
[SPEAKER_03]: Literally!
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and if there's someone who loves to take a load,
[SPEAKER_00]: So Bonnie's real name is Tia Billinger, which is like so English to be I just had to say that and she grew up middle class in Dreycott.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh god, I'm probably mispronouncing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: A village and nodding him shire.
[SPEAKER_00]: So English.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so she drops out of school during her A levels, which is like this weird two-year period at the end of secondary school that British people do in order to get into university.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're schooling system.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't fully understand it, it's though.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she drops out and she gets a job working as a recruiter for the NHS, the National Health Services.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is A levels kind of like say, Japan, Quebec?
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of it's like yeah two years it's like 16 to 18 and that's like you have to do it and based off of the grades you get in your A levels, that's how you get into school, but I think some kids then do something else instead, sorry England.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, she gets a job working as a recruiter for the NHS.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a decent paying job.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's got like a house.
[SPEAKER_00]: She marries her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Teenate boyfriend.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ollie.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she spends five years at this job.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stable life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she says she got bored.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she quit their job and she moved to Australia with her husband and while in Australia she joins only fans and then just like hits the ground running.
[SPEAKER_00]: She makes about 10k within her first month, apparently.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rodney makes 10k in your first month.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh well let me tell ya, so what are the few positive qualities that people are willing to attribute to Bonnie is her strong business acumen and you can see this from the beginning with her only fans so she joins a platform and she like quickly hatches a plan for success based off of two realizations.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first is that you know only fans is an oversaturated market and you have to stand out in order to succeed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, the first thing she ever shoots for the site was an Orgy, which she organized by just cold messaging other only fans creators and asking to collaborate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was like a five people Orgy, two girls, three guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she says she knew she wasn't interesting or famous enough to like just sell photos of her underwear and that she like had to kind of make this statement in order to gain traction.
[SPEAKER_00]: The second is that she isn't like the phoneness of porn, like she describes this first orgy with like fellow content creators as being essentially silent and weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: She isn't like the kind of artificial setup of it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for Bonnie, the ideal scene partner is someone who not only lacks a background in porn, but often someone with no sexual experience at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maya, when you hear the German barely legal, what does that conjure up for you?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, usually in a teen year old, like someone who has just crossed this threshold of like legal adulthood, but might still have the free frontal cortex is still very much cooking in that brain oven.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd have baked, let's say, and maybe the maturity levels are not necessarily there, but you are a
[SPEAKER_03]: legal adults by definition and I mean I know it's also like a porn category Usually with girls who are quite young looking and like don't have big-temts basically But barely legal like it's usually girls that you're thinking of right yeah Usually it's girls who come to mind who like look super young I don't necessarily think it inherently means they are that young but like usually it's girls who like look quite childlike
[SPEAKER_00]: or another one I was thinking a lot about was the girl's gone wild, which is fairly amateur and often like meets a genuine definition of barely legal, like co-eds who probably turned 18 in the last 12 months on spring break.
[SPEAKER_03]: College age girls, usually.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so one of the things that Bonnie does to really like get her only fans popping off is subvert those expectations of the college age girl by pursuing college age boys and while living in Australia in 2023 she realizes that schoolies which is their version of like
[SPEAKER_00]: Skuleys!
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, can you join an Australian accent?
[SPEAKER_00]: Skuleys!
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, you're quite good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Bonnie was living in a Hilton?
[SPEAKER_00]: She says, um, during schoolies.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she realized there were a lot of boys staying there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she posts a call out, basically on social media, looking for guys who are in town for schoolies to sleep with for a video.
[SPEAKER_00]: She only films one video on the first day, but then by this second day she's doing five in a day, and eventually like guys start lining up basically in order to shoot with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's shooting for free.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only payment is coming through people buying these videos, and these are all guys that are like new university age.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this proves to be so successful that she ends up repeating the formula in the state during spring break.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, what do you mean
[SPEAKER_00]: not for free like she's getting paid through only fans but she is basically saying to guys like hey come fuck me like whoever you are come have sex with me for free so she does this again in the state during spring break and she sleeps with a hundred and twenty two guys over that period and then again in the UK and she sleeps with a hundred and fifty eight
[SPEAKER_00]: It ain't easy!
[SPEAKER_00]: And she doesn't do background checks.
[SPEAKER_00]: She will literally just share her location, post on social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, Hi, boys!
[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to come.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does she have security detail?
[SPEAKER_00]: She does have security now because she got robbed earlier on in her career.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rob just like, they're really lucky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, because guys would come and then like she had some of them just like staying with her and then like someone took a bunch of her shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she has security now, she can't leave the house with that security these days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, really, I'm just, I said, set new a TikTok.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a vlog that she filmed in 2025 during schoolies where she's driving around the Bonnie Blue being bus.
[SPEAKER_00]: per take talks are funny because she'll be like, come with me for a day of work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she's suddenly taking much of Dildo's out of a purse, and then she'll show you the lunch she's eating.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's on the bang bus.
[SPEAKER_00]: She looks like for reference, if you people haven't google to her, I don't know her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She looks like she should be on the violin, and she looks like honestly like Alex Earl, basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she could be one of those girls.
[SPEAKER_03]: her little bus is so silly.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god the boys are so baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well Bonnie often calls herself a community worker and she says she's basically found a calling for herself in helping young sexually inexperienced men learn how to be with a woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like isn't it better they have their first time because okay I should add she loves to be like I want virgins to come and fuck me and I love taking guys virginities.
[SPEAKER_00]: and she's like, isn't it better that they have sex with someone like me who like does it for living?
[SPEAKER_00]: That she, I can teach them how to pleasure a woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they want to like, let's say a boys but growing up watching porn and anything, it's okay to like choke a girl or do something.
[SPEAKER_00]: The girl's going to get upset if you try to pull that the first time they have sex, but if he does it to me, it's fine because I'm me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's actually just training them to have porn sex, which so it's like a complete opposite of what she's reporting.
[SPEAKER_00]: But no, Maya, she's an educator.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sex educator was getting thrown around like so loosely back in the 2010s I remember like every random of what there was like, I'm a sex educator and you're like, okay, the thing is, we'll talk about this more later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, Bonnie is like not exactly a political person and she doesn't really put up much of a real facade of like being about sex positivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bonnie is about Bonnie's bank account.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the community worker thing is an example of her career defining rate to bat basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I find her choice to bring in barely legal scene partners really interesting because to me it's also just not really clear who these videos are for because traditionally like barely legal porn has been seen as this way of catering to some kind of like male pedophilic fantasy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously there can be a reversal of this, like there are women that are attracted to like younger men.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not really what's happening here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like Bonnie's audience is mostly men.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like what do you think the appeal of this content is from like a viewer's perspective?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like obviously we know why the 18 year olds are lining up to have sex with Bonnie Blue.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like why is someone on only fans consuming this?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's a lot of reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that what I mean, milk content, first of all, is kind of a thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there is a market for watching older women.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's like literally grandma porn.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like all over the place, truly grandma porn.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a hot 25 year old woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's not a milk.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, one is just like the spectacle of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think it's like, it's a little bit circus freak show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, how does she do it?
[SPEAKER_03]: One woman takes one bajillion penises and you're like, whoa, how did she do that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Little Guinness World Record vibes.
[SPEAKER_03]: but then also a little peachy-burner.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a little bit of good as record, a little bit of peachy-burner.
[SPEAKER_03]: I also think, I don't know, I mean, like, if she ever getting gangbang, there is, it's just like- Oh, does she ever get gangbang, of course?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's also a porn category, I think, like, I think you just kind of get one hook.
[SPEAKER_03]: Five trillion versions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look, one woman is just, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: the classifiers there are like visually striking I guess are like they're striking to the mind and so it's like I could see why there's this like freakish element that people would like to watch the mr. beastification of sex work is how I would describe potty blue
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Friggio, the internet taking things to such an extreme is just, yeah, classic, hyper saturated, like, it's just like, it's like slime content, you know, it's just, it's just hyper everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bonnie told the Australian site, Mamma Mia, her theory for the popularity of these videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says, usually people fake someone being 18 years old, like, in normal porn or pretend the guy's nervous.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when these people started to message, I was thinking,
[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't I make my content more relatable, more organic, you know, less edited?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was aware a lot of my subscribers and followers with the younger generation and I was thinking if they're watching my content with the professional point star, they're not going to be able to relate to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she thinks that the guys are like her audience are seeing themselves in these other inexperienced young men.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's also something kind of sacred, there is something famously, societally sacred of virginity.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think someone being let in to what is understood as a sacred experience is probably yeah intriguing to the viewer, I guess maybe it's such a fleeting moment that when it's over, that person will not be a virgin again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: It can people watching like, the heading videos or something or just like, this is, so you can take it back, you know, like it's like a miles down in someone's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my year, wow, times like you've thought about this a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to get inside the head of a male viewer, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as I'm sure you can imagine, there was like an intense media backlash the Bonnie, people have been calling her a predator for actively seeking out young men for her videos.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bonnie's response, she said, My hobby is 18 year old.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go and find yours.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's not great, is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: She feels like she'd be on Doctor Phil or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, she's like, what you were saying, like, the freak show is the perfect way to put it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think she's actually someone, we'll talk about this more later.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she's someone who's so almost apathetic to everything in the world around her that she's able to just like play into the freak show for what it arises.
[SPEAKER_03]: She possesses a proud depravity of someone who would go on like the Tyra Bank show or Dr. Phil or Oprah, you know, like 2000s sensational spectacle.
[SPEAKER_00]: She frustrates like every person who interviews her too because she has, she kind of has these talking points that she'll paint that are akin to that, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she continues to seek out non-professional partners for her videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't exclusive to co-eds.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's upset a lot of people by saying she wants to hook up with 18-year-olds and their dads.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although she says that once she did actually draw the line and was like, hmm, that's too insesty for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she likes to post these videos, which is like, okay boys, I'm here in your town, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Dads, boyfriends, virgins, whoever, I'm not doing your accent right, it's like way more at northern But she's way, she folks the kid and this is out at the same time She's not actually doing that, but basically when she's pulled up in a house It's like guys are just lining up to like get to come in the room and have sex with her She's kind of just like stationed in the room and she's like everyone come down She's said that like lectures for the university is that she's like coming around during you know their pressures or frostweek
[SPEAKER_00]: have common also had sex with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She woooots!
[SPEAKER_03]: I really for some reason have Jay from the in between her voice in my head.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just can't just keep being like, oh fuck you!
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh fuck you and you dad!
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was better than my Bonnie Blue impression.
[SPEAKER_03]: Should we put a trigger warning for bad British accents?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Australia in accents.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys can deal with that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: She also invites married men to come and cheat on their wives with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, she posts these, like, call out videos and she's, like, actively, like, saying, like, come cheat on your wives, cheat on your girlfriends with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the point is that, like, her niche of porn is based around this idea of ordinary guys getting to hook up with a porn star.
[SPEAKER_00]: and her co-ed sons and like their subsequent backlash proved to be very lucrative because eventually she's making as much as 2 million a month on only fans, according to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone loves a gimmick, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of gimmicks, then in 2025 she decides to set the unofficial world record for sleeping with the most men in 24 hours, a thousand into 57 to be exact.
[SPEAKER_00]: This would mean that every man technically would have like 41 seconds to have sex with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like they'd have to be like, kind of, sorry, this is really TMI, but like probably jerking it in line.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to be clear sheets at this record, and they did do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a little impressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said I've had this house in London and she shared the address and like posted on these promotional social media posts.
[SPEAKER_00]: In one of them, she's like, this message is for dads, husband, students, and of course barely legal 18 year olds.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love you to rearrange my insides this Saturday near Oxford Circus in London.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dude, the cues, she was like in this old mansion and the cues are going up and down these stairs out the door.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's literally just a puttin' in for like 30 seconds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's like you're just sticking it in one time, basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there was some gang banging going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, but no, but like technically, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: There's been like some people scrutinizing whether or not she successfully had sex with that many men, but like to be clear There was a lot of people that came through.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a documentary that was shot during this time and the floor was just Covered and used condoms.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the only barriers to entry were an ID, a consent form, and a condom There were no SCI tests in force her team prepared by ordering 20 tubes of KY jelly
[SPEAKER_00]: Men queued up, yeah, for hours like all day.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was going for a full 24 hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: In order to get to all of them in an efficient manner They did have to like get hard before entering the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: There might have been like a fluffer person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who is the fluffer person?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is the real story I want to hear about, you know, like
[SPEAKER_00]: If you watch videos in line, there are some men, pantsless in line, there are some men like fully cloth, some men in these body blue, ball of clavas, some men posting their faces on TikTok being like, I'm number whatever in the queue to fuck Bonnie Blue.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was wild.
[SPEAKER_03]: Every time I saw a video of this, it would just be like some kid in a shiny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna send you a TikTok, it's a mom coming to the queue and pulling her 19-year-old son out of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just sending it to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: It really is the circus.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the circus is coming to town literally, her little honk honk truck.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's literally filming this at Oxford Circus, which is just in central London.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Joseph Bernstein for the New York Times compared this stunt to Jubilee's popular surrounded series, which is where like online kind of figures and commentators are placed into a group of everyday people who disagree with them and kind of debate at them.
[SPEAKER_00]: He calls these stunts dramas that enact the complex interplay between creators and the nameless masses to whom they
[SPEAKER_00]: More than this, they are a new frontier in the parasocial, the traditionally one-sided exchanges between audience and star that defined modern digital culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what I'm talking about like those videos where it's like Candace Owens is surrounded by like 10 people who hate her and they're like arguing with her?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like Jubilee videos.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a Jubilee video?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's called Surrounded.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's this like Jubilee series.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay, I think Andrew Callahan did one recently.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like Andrew Callahan debates like a hundred conspiracy theorists.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the parasociality of it, like I think, I mean, I haven't seen any of these videos, but is Bonnie visible of face and then the man fucking hair is not visible of face?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they're not POVs, necessarily, I mean, sometimes the guys were ski masks, but sometimes their faces are fully in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for them, it's like the cred of like being, it's like, if you were like one of 100 people that got this limited edition thing, it's like you were one of the quantifiable like number of people who did get to fuck Bonnie Blue.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a weird like experience you got to have.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a new kind of hype beast.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a sex hype beast.
[SPEAKER_03]: For sure, you know, it's the new season line of the porn stars.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're going to sound complex with some hot girl to start like interviewing these guys in line up.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be a whole thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, sex is just it's just such a commodity.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like this is just sex as commodity to like the end degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's someone with line up to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting thinking about this as an extension of like boys and like I don't know that 19th century going and sleeping with sex workers You know what I mean to lose their virginities to them like I feel like that was like very common or like young soldiers doing this But then it's so hyper-mediated and so it's like carnivalesque I guess
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I even want to say like it speaks to like modern kind of meaningless of sex because I don't know like I don't know if teenage boys historically like have like the most sort of deep or meaningful relationships with sex generally to begin with.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think this idea of like treating your first sexual experience or like your virginity through this lens of like
[SPEAKER_00]: Contents and like what is like a shareable story and like it's like doing it for the bit doing it for the story or what's it called Doing it for the grab what's what do they say for the vine?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't know for the fall.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw a lot of such a chopped-unk
[SPEAKER_03]: No, but it's like you're doing it for the purpose of being able to like make content off of it or like share this story or whatever Yeah, it's not really the exact same as like doing it I remember when I was a virgin in high school like I feel like it was such a thing for me to do it that like It wasn't really about the act of doing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was more about doing it so I could tell my friends that I did it You know and like my friends had a code word I think it's on this podcast where we had a code word that we put in a group chat
[SPEAKER_03]: on Facebook that signaled to each other that we lost our virginity is, and it wasn't really about sex at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was about saying you did it, but then this is like taking that and taking the kind of private sphere of a friend group and actually turning it into, yeah, turning it into content.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is interesting thinking about like, I mean, we had done and talked about this yesterday too.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was like, we're all famed sick to some degree and like thinking about the demonic turn and the fact that
[SPEAKER_03]: Your entire following is kind of like your friend group in a way like this new friend group, and so you're doing it to let your following know that Even if you don't even have an actual following, but if you have like 500 Instagram followers, it's like, well, I have to let them know that I did this because everything needs to be publicized, you know
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's almost like nothing's worth it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know that whole idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, if you didn't take pictures and post an Instagram, it wasn't worth it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like that extending to virginity in a sense is bizarre.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bonnie definitely plays into the parasociality of it because she likes to position like we said earlier what she does as part of this fight against the male loneliness epidemic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that she truly in her heart necessarily sees that this way but she likes to talk about these things that she does as like her giving back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like hey these guys don't have to like watch porn they can live porn it's almost like VR it's like they can have the really experience of it by doing this with me and in that way I'm helping men by giving them sex because they're
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she had like a documentary crew from Channel 4 following her for the six month window that like this world records that fell under and she said she wanted to do the documentary so she could show to people that the men who watch her content or who are in her videos are normal nice guys and they're not freaks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although like if you watch documentary
[SPEAKER_00]: And this documentary like I would say is quite critical of both Bonnie and her antics.
[SPEAKER_00]: It begins with the filmmaker saying that she learned about Bonnie through her teenage daughter who had encountered her on social media and then the film ends in this kind of like it's kind of lame.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like trying to confront Bonnie and she's like, but think about my teenage daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like yeah, you're doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're making money, but think about
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, your teenage daughter is going to be exposed to a lot of crazy shit on Instagram, like, it's just not her problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the craziest thing is that this documentary that is like condemning Bonnie's stunt.
[SPEAKER_00]: is basically showing this stunt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't have to watch any content from the actual video.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw it on in this documentary.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to send you, I filmed my computer.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she films the 18-year-olds like having sex, like the documentary and films the 18-year-olds having sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to send you several clips that I had recorded, making sure I'm sending them to you and not someone else because that would be a sustained text accidentally sent to somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_03]: I keep going to be like, okay, if a man did this, there would be so much uproar.
[SPEAKER_03]: if a man was explicitly like I'm going to go find every 18 year old on the planet for views and money but then it's like porn is just so diffuse and mainstream anyways that it's like it doesn't even need to be a stunt that's just like most porn uh so it's funny to think about not that I'm like oh Bonnie should be getting away with this because like if men can do it women can but I'm just it's interesting that if you reverse it it's like well the reversal is just porn
[SPEAKER_00]: girl's gone wild was like a successful video series for years and it's basically these guys showing up at spring break with a video camera.
[SPEAKER_00]: At least the guys who ever having sex with Bonnie aren't being found at like two in the morning while they're drunk like walk around the streets.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like hey guys come here and they're like okay I want to.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fact that she's saying it out loud I think really freaks people out that she's like I'm explicitly seeking
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, I watched these videos now.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, can you see like she's like they're filming her while she's being... Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in the other video, it shows clips from her actual videos, and it's even crazier.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's like extremely full frontal.
[SPEAKER_00]: this is being filmed showed on television in a video that's like wouldn't it be terrible of a young girls and boys like came across this woman's videos that aren't her having sex it's just her on Instagram being like come up sex with me but they're like we will show this and that's fine yeah we'll show the like actual sex that's crazy also because we're worried about the 18 year old boys and then it's like what you're putting them on the documentary you're like you're like exacerbating the visibility of this content that you're freaking out
[SPEAKER_00]: And this whole thing just like really highlights to me the hypocrisy of like British sectional murals like especially with the media because we've watched British television we've seen love island like how would like you describe the difference between England and America in that sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was funny when you were talking about how your voice is so associated with porn like that's comment that this guy made and fucking for that first of all but
[SPEAKER_03]: like it's crazy because when you were saying that I was like that's so funny because the kind of pan British aesthetic is kind of a porn aesthetic like the way that I'm not saying every British person looks like that's by any means but you know this kind of like the most visible British aesthetic at the moment is this like kind of hypersext.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look like the girls in the violent will wear these bikinis that are just like intentionally five sizes She's small.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're the bottom of their boobs hang out of them like it's so funny like the bikinis just don't no ones bikinis is fitting them They're only wearing songs at this point like the bikini bottoms like the they all have these like super poofy filler lips like it's it's very Porny and like the false eyelashes
[SPEAKER_03]: So when you were saying that I was funny to me because I was like that is such a British look and yet you're being associated with porn.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bonnie Blue looks like she should be on the violin.
[SPEAKER_03]: She looks exactly like, I don't know, like, merely or something from season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like, she's indistinguishable from like the woman on that show.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like the first time I watched the violin, I was also like, oh, I didn't know that you could air people as they're having sex like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was kind of dumbfounded.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize that like you could show that kind of stuff on television.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I remember like when I was a teenager watching all this British media and there's like full frontal and all of it Like they're they're a lot looser with the nudity which is whatever but like on skins I remember in like the first or second episode Chris is teacher.
[SPEAKER_03]: He like sees her full frontal in The locker room and they just show everything and like they're like peanut I'm pretty sure penis is not show like a like you can see you see Michelle's boobs.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's just be a high school there
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you do and then in betweeners too, like you've seen Neil's penis, like it's yeah, you you see everything Uh, and they're a lot like more loose with that kind of stuff than the U.S. is so well, there's also like multiple naked Reality television shows.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know someone who was on dating naked.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's naked attraction There's dating naked, which is like love island, but their naked the whole time There's more and then on channel 4, which aired the Bonnie Blue documentary
[SPEAKER_00]: They have this really fucked up documentary series called Virgin Island where a bunch of adult versions are going through this weird sex therapy and the whole thing is aired and you watch this naked sex therapist teach that this guy like how to go to third base it's filmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They like record people masturbating like you're not watching it but you can you're hearing the audio.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a show that's like a documentary series, they have literal pin-up girls also in the newspaper.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they still do, but they did for years.
[SPEAKER_03]: No British culture is like it's it's fascinating combination of like Reservidness and like stiff upper lipidness, but then also extreme hornyness, like and it's like a very flirtatious culture, that's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy because I feel I've been told multiple times how direct I am, which I don't know if you know me I'm not like actually that direct of a person.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Vanna is probably the most indirect person that I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, but in the UK I've considered direct.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy!
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet like I feel like as an North American I have like a certain level of like, I don't know like I feel quite pretty compared to like some of the media at least, it's weird, it's such a weird place.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean the U.S. has its own weirdness with the contradictory aspects of sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's just, it's weird that there's so much like national uproar over like this specific woman in her antics.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like even this documentary that showed
[SPEAKER_00]: Bonnie Blue has received backlash for platforming her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like people are trading it like it's her personal vanity project There's no commercials on like all the ads were pulled basically from it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, okay times have also changed significantly I feel like in the past few years and I think that like the bar of what we consider children has risen like
[SPEAKER_03]: We are starting to refer to 18-year-olds as like straight up children a lot of the time and I think that there is a lot more concern about Young people I think in like this post euphoria world post me too like I think that there's a lot more and all the age gap discourse Like I think that the timing of it is probably what changes everything
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe Virgin Island aired this year.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, but maybe it's not having the same mainstream like like Bonnie Blue has reached across the pond at this point and so it's like I can see why it's like generating so much controversy because a lot of people were like you were molesting those young boys.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a pretty intense culture now around like people who were 18 to 21.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think it's like the fear of the internet and the fear of online where it's like okay if you're airing this stuff on television it's like there are still people who aren't very much in control of this but like they're scared of what clicking on a Bonnie blue video would lead to I suppose.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's that I also were also mentioned you know obscene files like everything is very heated and sensitive right now and I said I can see why this is culting so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: backlash in a way that it probably wouldn't have like 10 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: It probably would have been like a once again on daughter filler tyramanks, but like not anywhere else.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also like the, okay, so this whole thing has like made me think a lot about the differences between feminism in Britain and in North America, particularly the US.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you want to agree with me, but like do you think that Bonnie Blue would have been received at least a bit differently if she was American and like based in America?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think the media scrutiny, it's the same with when we talk about Love Island, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the scrutiny upon the Love Island, do you pay contestants as way greater than the scrutiny upon US ones?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because like, the UK is just so much smaller and confined and everyone watches it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's national media versus here.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know, I'm thinking of past porn.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm thinking of like Mia Khalifa and other porn stars who have been so, like, derided here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't tell, I can't tell if it would have had the same popularity.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what it would be think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like, to be clear, like, I don't think America is kinder to sex workers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that it's, like, some haven for that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not that I'm saying that Bonnie does mean, like, persecuted in the way me a Khalifa was, obviously.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're quite even saying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, but I think in the States, like, money talks louder.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that her financial success and her abilities as a business woman would have probably been taken wanting to consideration with our reaction to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think people would have been more of a debate around like, but you know, she is like kind of an entrepreneur.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's making her back.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like subverting something by targeting barely legally young boys instead of the reversal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also just think that like the mindset of like sex work is work feels really American to me because it's like they inherit value in something being work and being a source of income.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think is not maybe like uniquely American but like feels very much embedded in just that culture I guess or like in like American values
[SPEAKER_00]: And also the idea of the like choice feminism and like bodily autonomy as something that women fighting for the right to do whatever they want with their body is really North American because of like reproductive because of fights of a reproductive rights that aren't ongoing in the UK like the UK is really concerned about like defining what womanhood is and there's a lot of debates around that and like protecting women quote unquote but not so much about
[SPEAKER_00]: a woman's like personal agency in the same extent, at least like on the surface.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe these are generalizations, of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I wonder if Bonnie Blue had just fucked a thousand regular guys and didn't put out the call that it was barely legal.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do wonder if also that would have changed public perception because I think the barely legal thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Once again, I just think it's like an across the aisle thing where people are shaking hands whenever it comes to the kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can imagine Americans also getting freaked by that because of one skin like absene, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if she just liked a thousand men who were not barely legal, like, I think that that would have been received differently in America for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think that people would have been like, wow, wouldn't entrepreneurs.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think once you throw the 18 year old thing and it kind of loses steam.
[SPEAKER_03]: But...
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think that's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe because I first heard about her through the thousand men's done, that's like the thing I primarily associate with her, even though her brand was very much divergentizer before that for many years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't spell every time we say thousand men, I can't spell thinking about like a thousand and one night, like a radiant night.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is sure as hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to close off this episode with a bit of like a call back to the last time we covered sex on the internet, which is when Maya did an episode on the iconic porn star Sasha Gray.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I kind of see this episode as almost a spiritual sequel to that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sasha for those who don't remember was like this pioneer almost of internet pornography.
[SPEAKER_00]: she intentionally joined the industry at age 18, she had this really short but prolific career that span the late 2000s into, I think, like the very early 2010s.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as a result, she became a bit of an icon of the indie sleaze era as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was known as the intellectuals' porn star, she was then and small-chested, a bit outside of the norm of what you would imagine for a porn star of that era.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had long-bound hair, she talked about existential philosophy.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was very insightful about pornography, she talked about the performance of it, she was quite meta.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, her particular niche in porn was very hardcore.
[SPEAKER_00]: and there's like reason to assume that like her popularity pushed certain types of porn maybe into the mainstream in the episode we talked a lot about this complicated gray area we kept saying gray area and what's so embarrassing is that you thought that we were making a pun and I just was saying gray area and it took me until the end of the episode to realize
[SPEAKER_00]: that's what I do because I listened back to it and I was like oh I remember I didn't put two and two together until like the very end but we talked about the gray area she occupied as someone who entered sex work at a very young age but who did so in this like thoughtful manner where the narrative was very much about how she was in control it didn't matter that she was you know getting punched or like beat up by the guys that she's having sex with because a lot of the time
[SPEAKER_00]: defended in this idea of like, yes, but she's in control.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wants that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Bonnie, to me, she presents some similar traits to Sasha.
[SPEAKER_00]: She got into sex work on her own volition.
[SPEAKER_00]: She found success by carving out this niche for herself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her videos are shocking and boundary pushing and she chooses to do like extreme sex acts and she says she loves it And she's positioned as holding the power in these situations because she's the one instigating it She's the famous one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean in these situations
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet as like earn that power by Willfully subjugating herself being like hey guys I'm gonna basically be on all fours on this bed in London for 24 hours like come through and like fuck me And as she told an interviewer, she has taken control of her sexualizing herself in a society that was going to do it anyways But what are some differences between these two women like how would you relate body blue to Sasha Gray because we were having kind of a difficult conversation
[SPEAKER_00]: in that episode and trying to work out our feelings about Sasha, because we wanted to grant her her agency, but also work fully comfortable with what she'd done with set agency, I suppose.
[SPEAKER_03]: With Sasha Gray, well, yeah, what we felt was complicated about Sasha Gray was that she had this whole stance that she had kind of coming to porn with this plan, basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was
[SPEAKER_03]: And she executed it, and she had a good time, and then she left.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were like, okay, but that's not how it is for everyone.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the way you talk about porn, sometimes kind of all of you skates a lot of the more exploitative elements of the industry.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, she positioned the way that she was having sex as this kind of like artful thing that would, you know, instigate intellectual,
[SPEAKER_03]: philosophical thinking within the viewer, and we were like, I don't necessarily know Queen.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think people just wanted to see you have sex, and it was hard to actually really figure out if she had full agency because she was working within this institutional paradigm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where, unfortunately, she is a woman in a video getting fucked and beat up by a bunch of guys, which is perpetuating this kind of submissive pornographic image.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we were like, oh, I don't know if you actually have the agency that you do,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you have a visual agency because now that type of porn has really blown up and most women have to engage Like most like a lot of porn starts to have to engage now and these like hardcore acts that you're helping to popularize Where's Bonnie blue?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's kind of weaponizing like the word agency in a way that on her side of things all these gates like
[SPEAKER_03]: the fact that she's using her experience and age to kind of get the easy young impressionable men to have sex with her on camera.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's like, it feels like almost the inverse of each other where it's like, oh, you actually maybe have more like you have more agency.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're not really acknowledging the power dynamic maybe there that you're like a famous person.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is an anonymous version and there is like a little bit of an imbalance there regardless.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean there's an imbalance going both ways, but yeah, I could see them kind of being like an inverse of each other in a way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and inverse, that's a really interesting way to put it, cause I didn't really think about it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think, yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ever talking about in the immediate sense, like who has agency, I mean, Bonnie Blue is creating things as an independent creator with, yeah, non-professional, and like literally inexperienced participants.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, in that sense, she probably has like the most power that like any kind of woman working in porn has ever had.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the inherent power of taking someone's virginity is that like that moment will be a defining moment Like it doesn't have to be but like could be a defining moment of their life That's a moment that they will be able to revisit over and over again Well, they don't think want to and so a guy losing his virginity to Bonnie blue is like okay Maybe in five years he might regret that where his Bonnie blue.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's just another day in the life You know and so there isn't in balance just another like hour in the life That's another minute in the life Yeah, so if there is that in balance as well like this is not a milestone for her
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had this thing with Bonnie Blue where like I, and we'll get into this more like I do not like her as a person and I'm not necessarily going to try and I don't know I could see like a younger version of myself being like fuck this she's in control like she can do whatever the fuck she wants like maybe going more to bat to defend her yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: I, in theory, don't care that she had sex with a thousand men.
[SPEAKER_00]: When she first came into my life and I first learned about her, it was a debate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, at this party of people I don't know who were debating just that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, whether or not it was like fucked up and discussing and weird, like guys being like, it's really fucked up that she did this and girls trying to be like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but whatever, like trying to defend her, so that's how I first encountered her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not even through people talking about the barely legal aspect of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Through people talking about like, is it just discussing and messed up and bad for women that she fucked a thousand men?
[SPEAKER_00]: is it good for women that she fucked a thousand men?
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably not, but also as a woman, I don't personally feel like my personhood or the progress of women before me has been put at stake because she did this because she's just a very large drop in the bucket of, you know, media
[SPEAKER_00]: but she didn't invent the wheel.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's just kind of made a self-driving car out of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, she's a large drop in the comeback.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is all that ran through my mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just now, um, great one liner.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I never enjoy the argument like this is setting women back.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the only thing that's setting women back is like TikTok dummies to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, when there's like a sex thing going on, people like this is setting women back and kind of like, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like this is thinly veiled, and he sex like a little bit, a little bit sledge-shamey.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's hard when you're been in the front, but barely, we'll part, but like if we're just going off the metric of like off the basis of her fucking 1,000 men, like, oh my god, who gives it back, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's not what it does not bother me.
[SPEAKER_00]: crying, slut-shaming feels really old-fashioned to me at this point almost because I don't know, I haven't really accused someone of like slut-shaming someone in so long, but genuinely that feels at least like a part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much more going on, but also, I don't know, I just like don't care that she did that and like I keep trying to like challenge that feeling in myself and I keep coming to the same conclusion which is that I do not care that she did that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're really, like, catch me trying to give a fuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, like, I was, like, surely, I want, if so many women are upset by her doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm not thinking hard enough about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I watched the documentary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I read up about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the only thing that I don't like about it is that, and again, I don't think that this is Bonnie's singular doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's part of a problem, but she didn't create the problem as it is pushing porn into this, like I said, like almost Mr.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beast mode, Mr.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beast mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: But...
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, it's pushing it to this place where you really have to do extreme stunts in order to carve out any kind of name for yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's making things more extreme across the board in the industry.
[SPEAKER_00]: That being said, only fans was like, you're not allowed to do this type of shit and they took away her page.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she's not on only fans anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: After the 1000 men stun, they were like, no, you're done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, why?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: because they started enforcing these rules with her about using non-professional participants.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also just think it was too extreme and only fans keep trying to be like, we're not a place where you sell porn, even though they are a place that you sell porn.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was just like too big and glaring of an example of that for them to really be able to get away with them trying to
[SPEAKER_00]: re-brand themselves, and I'm word dignified manner.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's giving seeking arrangements.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also giving McDonald's Cafe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god McDonald's Cafe, we see right through you girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the case of Bonnie Blue also though the issue isn't just what she's doing, it's also what she's saying and who she's associating herself with, so she's gone on record to say things like men cheat on their wives with her because their wives are lazy and withholding the sex that they owe their husbands.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's also said that women cry rape when they regret a sexual encounter so it's better that guys sleep with her because she won't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's made strange bedfellows with some of the biggest names in the Manisfier, particularly Andrew Tate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this joint podcast interview, the Andrew and Bonnie did, which I felt like I was actually going through some part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt like torture sitting through that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did this interview following her like 1,000 manstunt, and he
[SPEAKER_00]: And Bonnie just sat there for two hours while he went on his crazy, like, classic rants about women.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said that she backed everything he was saying except for this one point he made when he suggested that all the men that are having sex with her are gay because of the amount of male DNA that has been inside of her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, that was the only thing she took issue with famously contestable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really, I think there's flaws in that perfect argument, but the rest of it, which honestly, I think I blocked a lot of it out because I know that people think these things, but to have someone like yelled them at me for an hour is like, truly mind boggling.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she was like, told the onboarder that and she's like, yeah, I am the result of liberal feminism.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am the culmination of what every woman has been fighting for for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you think that maybe like part of the hate towards Bonnie's stems from this idea that, you know, she is in a sense making a mockery out of the causes that women have been fighting for?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's valid criticism.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's one thing to be like okay, just making a bad name for a women because she's just like banging a bunch of men, but her, then I ironically embracing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like I don't think that feminism needs to be wrapped up in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like, think that we've swung into this era of, like, really hating the sex positivity era that came before this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, even just watching Lena Dunn on last night, I was like, there really hasn't been a woman since girls who's gone on screen.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been naked in, like, fucking with that body type since girls.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was 14 years ago, and that was supposed to be, like, the next thing that's happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now it's not happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also anyone with, like, a brain or self respect would watch the way she got treated for doing that and be, like, oh fuck that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm not about to do this, and so it's Bonnie Blue feels like a bit of a sigh-off when it comes to kind of like attempting to put liberal feminism in its grave a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, God, this paired with like, Lindi West and her polycule, I'm like, God, it's not looking good for liberal feminism, which I'm not like, you know, whatever, what do we even mean by liberal feminism here?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I entertain version of liberal feminism is not my version of liberal feminism, but it's not, it's mine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw the photos of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like standing there and she's on her knees with her
[SPEAKER_00]: The worst part is she kept being like yeah, I'd fuck Andrew and Andrew was like so disgusted by her in that sense Like he likes her because he likes that she proves this point for him, but like none of the man is fear men Respect her.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like really disparaging towards her as I'm sure you can imagine
[SPEAKER_03]: Well the right loves to see upon people who seem like they could be the downfall of.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a classic case, but to me she feels like the mirror world version of liberal feminism or like choice feminism, which is like what happens when you know what is a complicated and like flawed leaf system, whatever, what happens when like that gets perverted by this like free market capitalism of the internet, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there are merit to liberal feminism, and then there's a lot of drawbacks to it, and it's complicated, and working at the feminism of that era, the Lena Donomera that we've been talking about, Sasha Gray era, that's one thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is what happens when the wrong people learn that language, and abuse it, and turn it on a ton, basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think that debate around the feminism of Bonnie Blue is like quite misguided, because she's not a feminist, and I think her like vehement anti-feminism is a response to the feminist criticizing her to an extent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, I think she's going to continue to say and do outrageous things and align herself with outrageous people.
[SPEAKER_00]: The more and more she becomes ostracized from society.
[SPEAKER_00]: because we're else, so she's supposed to go, and like earlier this year, she faked a pregnancy and wore a prosthetic belly during spring break, like she's gonna keep doing her crazy shit, but in her extreme stunts and her gangbangs, she compares herself to an athlete pushing their body to the limits.
[SPEAKER_00]: which did remind me a bit of Gooners, what we were talking about there in that episode and this throughlines been drawn to me for like much of the seasons of far, which is that the central belief system at the heart of sex on the internet right now is nihilism, like it was there with
[SPEAKER_00]: Bonnie told Andrew Tate they're talking about like having kids and she was like the world's going to Shea anyway, whether we've got more kids in it or not, it's fucked regardless So just live your life the best you're going to be dead in however many years anyways Don't stress too much and I think that's really just the outlook that everyone's having
[SPEAKER_00]: it's meaningless.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so to ascribed meaning to her is almost feels hard to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and it feels like the logical outcome of the stripper hustler TikTok mindset, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to make as much money as I possibly can do the thing, and then leave, and this is similar to that in a way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just influence or culture.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like the attention economy culture.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a 15 minutes fame.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like five minutes fame at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: As we're recording this like, Clivicular just OD guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my friend was like, hey, this came a lot earlier than you guys predicted.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything's being accelerated in its own way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's just another version of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: The athlete thing is interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, getting fucked by 1000 men.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's got to be like, doing something to her body to be able to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: The part is that she reminds me of Caroline Callaway and that she's got all these like pre-land talking points that are on brand for her, but it's really hard to know how she's actually feeling.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's really insistent that like, it doesn't hurt, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she does talk about like pain from sex and like interviews, but like she's generally sort of like supplant off is like it was awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved every minute of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, my eyes are absolutely bloodshot because of the amount of calm that's been inside of them, but like, I love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah Oh my god, it isn't extreme.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't know it's the same thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a hunger test.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess sitting in a cage in the carnival Like it is just like a guess world thing
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's like someone sticking a bunch of pins in themselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you cool as she talked about what happens to your body when you do that, instead of this like person that she's putting on, because that would be way more interesting to be on, like from a scientific medical basis, I just want to know what's going on there, but she's not going to tell me, because she needs to get fucked by more men.
[SPEAKER_03]: She can't be like, oh, then my like vagina turned its light out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can't really say that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what's next?
[SPEAKER_03]: Someone's skydiving and getting fucked by a thousand men.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what do you think like how far can it's possibly go, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's gonna be the first woman to get fucked by a virgin in space.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: We saw the far side of the moon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you can see the far side of Bonnie Blue's moon.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard Poo.
[SPEAKER_03]: You, Hannah.