[SPEAKER_00]: The queer family bought gas Love is love is love on the queer family bought gas Love is love is love on the queer family bought gas Love is love is love on the queer family bought gas
[SPEAKER_04]: What's the transfers?
[SPEAKER_04]: You have to do STD testing.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have to do this sperm samples, all these things.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there was a couple of times that I had to go without Philip because like why you're coming with me for these medical tests you don't have to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I had to sit in this room and I literally faced time to Philip as it was like showing him the next round of women.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_04]: the first one didn't work out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we landed on someone else.
[SPEAKER_04]: And after she came in, the clinic literally said to us, they were like, we think she's the one, like she's been so incredible and also she's just beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like she was just so much more beautiful than her photos, like we like this is the one for you for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome y'all to the Clear Family Podcast, the show All About Family, but with game.
[SPEAKER_02]: The show that Highlight Celebrates, Upliffs and Normalizes, LGBTQIA plus families in all of our fabulous identities.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this one is a really good one.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a fabulous one as they all are.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're all my babies.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love them all the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this one is also a really good one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to sit down with Phil and Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're two dads.
[SPEAKER_02]: who had quite a journey.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just want to say, like lately, I feel like a lot of us are asking the same questions, like with the state of the US and the state of the world right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the regime we seem to find ourselves under that just keeps on keeping on at us all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been wondering,
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot recently, is this going to affect my family?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this going to affect my marriage?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this going to affect my children?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure a lot of you are having these thoughts too.
[SPEAKER_02]: These worries, these fears.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how can we not when you just hear constantly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, they're trying to take away gay marriage again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and we talk about it in this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, is it going
[SPEAKER_02]: us being able to create our families, the ways that we want to.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's intention, there's cost, there's heartbreak, and sometimes years of trying before anything works.
[SPEAKER_02]: And today's story is exactly that it's adoption that didn't happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a pandemic that changed everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a completely unexpected turn that led to the family that they were always meant to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, it's a reminder that no matter how much you plan this out, no matter how much the unexpected is always going to happen and it's not going to turn out the way you always dreamed it would.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're always going to get what you're meant to have and that's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really want to roll this tape with Phil and Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're beautiful guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love the conversation with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So much great stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: But before I do, I want to tell you all about the thing that's happening over on the Patreon.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're not on Patreon, which I understand if you're not, I'm always overwhelmed and never have enough time to actually put really great stuff up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now with Yani helping me out, we have some ideas.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to start something new on Patreon, which we talked about in the last episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be doing like a, a little behind the scenes, extra bonus content that only gets released on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really just kind of like a Jamie Spillin of the tea of a lot of the things that she doesn't always put into these, these here episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's not much, but there actually, there is, there is much because, you know, like, I have to be sensitive on this show of my guests.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have to be, of course, I'm always sensitive on my guests and I love them.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I have to be sensitive, I have to be sensitive of any, any sponsors I have.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't say everything I think on this here show, but on Patreon, I am going to be saying a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_02]: What you hear here, and I honestly, when Diani and I came up with this idea, I was thinking, oh my god, I don't know if I'm going to have enough to talk about, like, what am I going to, I don't know, maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I sat down just a little bit ago to jot down some ideas of topics we can cover and y'all, I got a long list real quickly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are things
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to get off my chest and I think y'all will appreciate them because I think we're mostly all of us on the same page.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're not on Patreon, head on over to Patreon at the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a free side to Patreon as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you don't have the money, I will try to release some of these things on the free side here and there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you have a little extra money and it's not much, you can do it as a little as $2 a month.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have a little extra money in your pocket books, I mean, who does right now?
[SPEAKER_02]: So this might all be a flop, but please head over to Patreon, support me there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to get some spilling the tea of Jamie getting shit off her chest that she has held inside.
[SPEAKER_02]: You might even hear me bitch about my wife here and they're don't tell her I said that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, M.G.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need you to have a nice night tonight.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, all right, let's.
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I getting myself into?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's roll the tape, head to Patreon, do the thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you're following on all the socials because some of the content might show up here and they're on the socials at the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everywhere you can find us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, like, subscribe to this here show and put comments in there and nice reviews for me, please.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that I've asked you to do everything you can possibly do, let's roll this tape and hopefully you get something beautiful out of it and hang in there folks.
[SPEAKER_02]: These times are trying and I hope this is a little bit of light in your day.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Helen, Bula, let's roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: Clear family, but good, slow, is love.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hello, how are you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Good, how are you?
[SPEAKER_05]: Good, good.
[SPEAKER_05]: Sounds like to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm excited too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait to hear your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait to hear all of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Without further ado, let's do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get into your 30-second elevator pitch.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a fun way to get to know who you are and why you're here talking to the queer fam squad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are we ready?
[SPEAKER_05]: All right, sounds good.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, get set.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Phil, an author of Career Books for Kids and Teens.
[SPEAKER_05]: My husband, Jonathan owns a luxury wedding planning company in New York.
[SPEAKER_05]: We've been together since 2010, and we spent a long time focusing on our careers before building our family.
[SPEAKER_05]: And now that journey was challenging, three-year stretch of adoption, pandemic delays, and honestly, we almost gave up a few times.
[SPEAKER_05]: We decided to explore Sarigase and everything kind of clicked when Jonathan's
[SPEAKER_05]: So, pass forward, and speaking quickly, because I have 30 seconds, our daughter Blake is three and a half.
[SPEAKER_05]: And she will correct you if you forget the half.
[SPEAKER_05]: She loves her pop and daddy.
[SPEAKER_05]: But she is starting to realize that she's living in a very, very mommy and daddy world.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we're here to talk about our journey and offer some visibility for anyone else navigating the same path.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so this is exciting.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about a couple of paths towards parenthood.
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, it seems like like trying out different things.
[SPEAKER_02]: How long ago did you meet?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you say that in your elevator pitch?
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, six.
[SPEAKER_04]: Two.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was twenty eight ten, the longest of twenty ten.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, sixteen years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you took some time before you started your family building journey.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I was 22.
[SPEAKER_05]: When we met, he was 23, I just moved to Washington, DC after college.
[SPEAKER_05]: He had been there for about a year.
[SPEAKER_05]: So let's say we weren't like ready.
[SPEAKER_05]: We weren't like a year to get started on that process.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we got married in 2013.
[SPEAKER_05]: The day that it was legalized in Hawaii was, I think, our
[SPEAKER_05]: Either of the day we got engaged or the day we got together.
[SPEAKER_05]: I can't remember, there was something where it was like on a Sunday, which, or Saturday, which nothing happens on Saturday, but we were like, let's fit that into one of our speeches.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and now they're trying to take it away again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Talker.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's talk here.
[SPEAKER_06]: Wow, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, let's not get into all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about family.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would love to know, when did the first conversation about family happen?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know you didn't start for quite some time, but when did you start talking about it?
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like it was always a part of the conversation like I personally knew I always wanted to have a family and kids and that was one of my like, I remember before I had come out, it was like the fear of not being able to have a family and thinking that I wasn't possible.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was definitely something that was always on the table and I would say a deal breaker for me specifically is like I wouldn't have dated somebody that that wasn't in the realm of possibility.
[SPEAKER_04]: So even though we weren't,
[SPEAKER_04]: actively tried to have a family because we were so young.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was definitely something we had always discussed and knew we would want to eventually.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I feel like it's probably something we discussed on the first or second day.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we usually do because not only do we have to like all couples, you do have to get on the same page on whether we want kids or not, like all couples have to do that, but we have we more things to talk through than just that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a commitment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we need to make sure we're on the same page about how we want to go about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you care about genetics?
[SPEAKER_02]: I care about genetics.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how are we going to do that?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like all these things that need to be hashed out.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like a conversation with a 22 and a 23 year old probably doesn't have any of those answers or know what the questions are.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's why we had iterations of that conversation that got more and more next year after year.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it got a bit intimidating.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, because there are so many decisions to make, and there's no rule book, there's no guidelines except podcasts like this and a few books here and there, there's more lately like more and more is coming out, but it's still like putting a puzzle together and trying to grasp and do what your your gay friends before you did and okay, let's take from that part and let's do, you know, like it's a mess, it's a mix up.
[SPEAKER_05]: state by state.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's very, it's very, really.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we, we, we, we read books and they'd be like, well, if you're in this state or if you're in this state or if you're in this state, it's like, okay, I'm already, again, overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you finally decided, okay, now's the time, what was the conversation and what did you think your path is going to be?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's, let's, let's walk down the path, let's go.
[SPEAKER_04]: We always wanted to adopt, or I personally always wanted to adopt.
[SPEAKER_04]: I felt pretty strongly about not bringing life into this world, actually.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just wanted to rather give a home to a child that needed it and already existed.
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't care so much about the genetics or passing on anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: So in my mind, it was always a adoption.
[SPEAKER_04]: And
[SPEAKER_04]: The conversation like seriously ramped up around the same time Phillips first book actually came out.
[SPEAKER_04]: We kind of put it on pause just a little bit because he wanted to really focus on the success of his first book and the launch and not feel too overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the conversation was like how long is adoption going to take?
[SPEAKER_04]: Should we have these be kind of getting the conversation started and the wheel's moving?
[SPEAKER_05]: We moved to New York City in 2015.
[SPEAKER_05]: after getting, we were in London and DC before that.
[SPEAKER_05]: We kind of moved everywhere, we had our fun.
[SPEAKER_05]: And when we were in New York for four or five years, we were like, okay, I think we were settled.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, Jonathan had opened his wedding planning company.
[SPEAKER_05]: I had gotten my book deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: I also had a job in publishing.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I was like, okay, I think we're settled.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like we're not 100% settled, but we're at least like on the right path.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's now's the time to answer the question.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_05]: Pressures of age.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, and then the pandemic hit.
[SPEAKER_04]: His book came out in February of 2020.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so the conversation was we're going to wait until after your book comes out and then a global pandemic happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, obviously through a runction to it, we did the whole adoption journey and that we, you know, did the home study we found in agency we were going to work with like interviewed with multiple agencies.
[SPEAKER_04]: We went with an agency that was based up in Buffalo, New York and we've had to fly up there for mandatory classes and did the home study in our apartment in New York and then we also moved to Westchester during the pandemic.
[SPEAKER_04]: we were in the adoption process for two full years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: As a waiting family, as they call it, and we just, we weren't getting any kind of traction at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was something where we started out kind of as selective as we wanted in terms of you can kind of, you know, there's a laundry list of things that you can say, are you open to this or you're not
[SPEAKER_04]: wanted to start more selective.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when we weren't getting any opportunity calls, we brought it literally as wide as you could go.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we, I think, got a total of four opportunity calls over two years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is not enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, did they give you any indications of why?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, no.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the explanation that was kind of given and there is validity to it is, during the pandemic, there were a lot less on it planned pregnancies because people were stuck at home and that's a terrible and sad thing to say but people weren't going out, there was.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, if you think about the people that are typically putting their children up for adoption, it's not a couple that's at home for the pandemic.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's people that are, you know, having these unfortunate circumstances or young people.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so when that component was taken away, I think there was less demand for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: We worked with an agency that specifically did work with LGBT families, but you know, there's always a component too of like the expectant mother has to be willing to work with a queer family.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, they're the first line of defense.
[SPEAKER_04]: They get to see the books first and choose whether or not we even Yeah, maybe the choice considered.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so right, this this stuff.
[SPEAKER_05]: back and talk about the process itself.
[SPEAKER_05]: We would get the call.
[SPEAKER_05]: They would have all the details that they knew, which often they didn't know about.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then if we said, yes, we want to be put forward to it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Our adoption book or like a lookbook.
[SPEAKER_05]: Our lookbook was sent to the mother.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then it would be one of 10 books sent over into her.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then she would narrow it down to like three or
[SPEAKER_05]: And then a decision is made and, of course, oftentimes during this process, they choose not to go down the adoption route.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are so many things that can happen.
[SPEAKER_05]: But even in the best case scenario, you have a very slim path.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was just about, I think, a higher demand than supply to put in those terms.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, unfortunately, also all the calls we got were just like less than ideal.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is something that we weren't really prepared for.
[SPEAKER_04]: Was the level of...
[SPEAKER_04]: drug use and with it from the mothers during the pregnancy and things like this and we just, you know, had to have a lot of very, you had like 24 hours to get back to them to say yes or no.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it just, it was going on three years.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's
[SPEAKER_04]: when we were like, okay, maybe this isn't the path and my parents actually were the ones that were just like, I know you didn't want to do serigacy for a multitude of reasons, financials being a massive one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Huge.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think if this is something that you guys are serious about, like it might be time to reevaluate, or revisit this conversation now that you're 34 years old, you know, like you're getting older and you want this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let's figure out how to make it happen for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But once you start the process, you want to tap in.
[SPEAKER_02]: right away, you know, so any waiting is painful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Definitely a pivot and obviously ultimately we did want the family and we were open to it, but, you know, it comes with its own hoops and challenges and the finances and just a lot of different obstacles.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's let's talk through it.
[SPEAKER_05]: queer people aren't able to like naturally have a child.
[SPEAKER_05]: It feels like every month we have a new conversation of do we want to do this?
[SPEAKER_05]: Do we?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are we sure we want to do this?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think a lot of parent that like are, you know, are the nonqueers we're like, I don't know what, we'll see what happens.
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe we'll have a second.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Or it's like there's no way to see it.
[SPEAKER_06]: But we're not even trying.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: But then it's like, it kicks into gear when they're like, oops, okay, I am actually pregnant.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're in it.
[SPEAKER_05]: but there was not going to ever be that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was a very, there's an intentional choice that has to be made as a queer family.
[SPEAKER_04]: No matter what, like this isn't a let's wait and see or maybe this will happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like I have to invest a lot of time, a lot of energy be subjected to a lot of critique, especially in the adoption world.
[SPEAKER_04]: We kind of felt like we were treated like criminals like with the home studies and the way that they like, like the things that we had to have in our
[SPEAKER_04]: have a baby without anyone watching and anyone can do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, oh, but make sure all of my fire detectors are working.
[SPEAKER_05]: We have to have a bed.
[SPEAKER_05]: So think of a think of that we did a pack and play, not a crib, think of.
[SPEAKER_05]: But think about having a pack and play in your closet for years.
[SPEAKER_05]: Who in a half years?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a reminder.
[SPEAKER_05]: Your visual reminder.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like that's so painful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so every day it's like you have to consciously make this decision, okay, we're going to keep doing this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though it's painful, even though we don't know where this is going to end up, we don't know what we're going to have to do to get where we want to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know and never goes the way you think it's going to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I love that you said that and because intentionality comes up so much in every single conversation I have on the show and you really put it into great perspective there like every day we had to make the decision to not stop either we're stopping or we're going.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we found, you know, as we got older and I think a lot of people in our generation, too, like as you get older, you get more set in your way of life and you've kind of been happy and you're okay with things.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's like, maybe we don't need this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, for straight people, then they can play the like, well, let's wait and see your kind of try, or whatever it might be.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that's not, you know, totally, you know, leave it in God's hands for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there was no accidental pregnancies happening over here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we had to really forge ahead and make that conscious effort and decision.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a commitment and it's not easy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's heartbreaking at times.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot of ups and downs.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so you're like, OK, mom, good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we'll switch to surrogacy, we ain't got no money, basically.
[SPEAKER_04]: Luckily, my parents do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: They very generously offered to help, because this was something that they knew was really important to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been, you know, I have worked since I'm 14 years old.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we obviously live in New York and lived in New York City.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's a very expensive place.
[SPEAKER_04]: And luckily, they were in a position to help.
[SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, you know, we were having conversations when we started
[SPEAKER_04]: of course could have been in debt and families to make a work, but luckily we had family that was able to help us.
[SPEAKER_04]: That made it just a much easier pill to swallow that I know a lot of queer people don't have, so we're obviously very grateful for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like because you had a friend, it wasn't like the full package that they described.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, she did save us a lot of money and we'll, you know, we'll get to that, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, that when we started the conversations and the explorations, we certainly were not expecting that.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was a kind of last minute pivot, which was incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, yes, that definitely helped with the costs.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the angel right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's there's there's the goddess.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there she is, there she is.
[SPEAKER_02]: There she is.
[SPEAKER_02]: So your parents say, okay, we'll help you out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you went and you've interviewed agencies.
[SPEAKER_02]: You found an agency you liked.
[SPEAKER_04]: We actually ended up not having to work with an agency because we didn't get a surrogate.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we've done all the research that we had agencies.
[SPEAKER_04]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_04]: So luckily my business partner and best friend that lives up here as well, she had gone through IVF to have her daughter.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so she worked with the incredible fertility clinic in New York City that also worked with LGBT families.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we kind of just went directly to them to discuss their egg donor program.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's how we went about finding an egg donor was through this fertility clinic.
[SPEAKER_04]: process.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was, you know, lamenting to my best friend who had also been my girlfriend of three years in high school, like we've known each other since 10th grade.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is like what everybody says, like, if I grow up and I don't have a, and I don't have a kid by the time I'm 40, I'm going to go back to this friend.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I was, you know, lamenting about just kind of the cost and the reason this had actually started is I'm very short I'm only five foot six and so she's actually quite tall and so I had texted her randomly being like how taller you and she's like why are you asking this and so I was like oh we're looking at egg donors now and I want to choose someone who's taller to try to offset my height and so then we had a conversation and she kind of
[SPEAKER_04]: off-handedly was like oh maybe this is something I could do for you and I was like are you being serious because like if you're being serious like let's talk about this because like this was like the dream scenario having my best friend carry our child and it would just like make it such a special experience and we you know still wanted to use an egg donor because we thought it would be weird for me to have a child with my best friend slash ex girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why we always say gestational carrier, not serrigate, which is like a distinction that most people that haven't gone through this process don't understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so when I say gestational carrier, they're like, what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what do you mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, so having her literally grow our child inside of her and birth her, and was just such a unique and special experience up was not on the table originally.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in a conversation about the choice you were making for the egg donor is when the surrogate conversation kind of sparked and correct and then came to fruition.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to go into the egg donor, but I also want to know, why do you prefer gestational carrier over surrogate?
[SPEAKER_04]: My understanding is surrogate means that it's actually the person's egg as well as carrier was the definition when you That was the legal definition.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, when I'm a maybe it's state by state.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, but that was that was what we were told.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and so legally we in our like Leo documents, I think, had to put in just a state.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, maybe that was state by state, but I now again has been over, you know, four years since we were in the
[SPEAKER_04]: station on Carrier.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my memory was that it is where this egg comes from.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then that's what you call her now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, and that's what you see.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like an old G. C. She's the G. She's the original G. She's the original G. C.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's why we use that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But again, like we could say Sarah good and people.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like we just have always been we've always wanted people to understand it is not her baby because people have such a hard time with that anyways with legacy and like how she's going to do this really do they think she's like even my closest friends of family would be like how is she going to give up this baby.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like because it's not hers.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not hers in any way.
[SPEAKER_04]: I understand she has.
[SPEAKER_04]: a hormonal connection and she grew this baby and there's no denying there will be a connection for life but it's not her baby.
[SPEAKER_04]: She entered into this with that understanding.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very different than adoption where somebody is, you're not supposed to use this terminology but like giving up their baby, that's now what's happening here and she was very, she was able to, she's very practical like she's very pregnant.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's very pregnant.
[SPEAKER_05]: She wanted this separation as well and she's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a home, like go a little further with this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, gestational carriers, I'm sure you did all of the things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, they're psychological testing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're, they take tests to make sure that this is going to be okay for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they go into this knowingly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure you did all that due diligence that has needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you make sure she's not going to be hurt in this relationship?
[SPEAKER_04]: And because it was our best friend, again, getting way into the weeds, but even on the legal contracts, in a way that I think a lot of people are, we wanted to make sure she was taken care of.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we were advocating on her behalf more than a normal couple would.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I was talking to her lawyer, is out of agenda to the point where they're like, you're not our client.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, we need to hear this from her because like, you're not the client.
[SPEAKER_04]: And even though we're required by a lot of pay for it, but like, so we were really making sure she felt comfortable taking care of in every aspect.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so this is like, this is like months of us, you know, thinking about the the vervage that we use explaining it to everyone and then still I would say like on a weekly basis, one of our parents or friends or someone would say, how should you go to give her up.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm like, did you not listen?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like we tried so hard to make it clear, but they just went there because they had a hard to say.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like they just like can't.
[SPEAKER_04]: They put themselves into her shoes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, our imagining as a straight woman having a baby and then giving it away.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like it's like not saying that's an easy, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's it's hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's the fourth trimester that happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no baby and of course,
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, she had a hard time.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's no denying, but it wasn't about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was the postpartum of what all and the being all of a sudden alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's a single woman that lives alone and so we just went to another all-air to it.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you do a lot of reassuring to our supporters and our lives that she would be okay, which is great that they're worried about us.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're worried about her.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're worried about the baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're worried about everyone, which is lovely, but then it's an added tax on us to make sure they know
[SPEAKER_05]: we're on it.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're all together.
[SPEAKER_05]: We are a unit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think what in all my conversations that I have surrounding justational carriers and services, what I want people to realize most of all is the relationship and the bond that is formed between
[SPEAKER_02]: these families, and I say these families because once you go into this surrogacy contract, you become like everybody I talked to became so close with their surrogates.
[SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of if they were best friends or not, any of the egg donors too, if they got to know the egg donor, because there are, there's not a mess, but right, which is whenever I wanna go next, but like what I want people to understand is like once again, the intentionality, this is not something light and frivolous people go into and like, oh yeah, she's just gonna carry the baby.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's just put her in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So well planned out.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lawyers and fees.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_02]: We trust all the teas.
[SPEAKER_02]: We dot all the eyes and we take care of everyone involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want people to understand that and it's just like a we need way more of these podcasts out there So people can start hearing we need TV shows about a couple who has a best friend who's a gestational carrier for them Like this is what we need why don't we see more of this?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't think you see it on media.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, it took the baby like they're that's the only one that's gonna get there
[SPEAKER_04]: even that she at the very last second wanted to keep one of the babies like every single thing and so like that's what people think and it was her brother's kids like wasn't even like a stranger's her brother's it's gotta be scandalous so we need more uplifting stories that like show the truth of this will be right back
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about your egg donor because I want to know how it sounds like you went through this IVF clinic that you're just a social carrier use.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what was the conversation about I hear heard the height thing?
[SPEAKER_02]: What else?
[SPEAKER_02]: I call this the search for the superhuman because sometimes we get, look, cook, cook, I got a look, cook, cook with my donor.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love to hear everybody's path.
[SPEAKER_05]: some context before.
[SPEAKER_05]: I decided that I didn't really want a genetic link.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have plysisic kidney disease, which is something that with a lot of genetic testing, we potentially could have like worked around, but it would have also just cut our chances.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, for in quarter and, you know, you're only getting so many exatives and we don't want to just keep throwing money out there and also my whole life since I figured out I had this, I was like, well, I don't want to have biological kids because, you know, it's been passed on through my family.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've seen many members of my family, like,
[SPEAKER_05]: have candy transplants pass away because of this.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not going to, I didn't want to pass it on.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, if I had the option.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that took me out of it completely, which was actually helpful.
[SPEAKER_05]: We never had that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it was easier because of that for sure.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like that side of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so you didn't have to argue about who's going to have the connection.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there was no question it was going to be mine.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so that had influenced a lot of our decisions with the egg donor we chose.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was definitely a weird experience, you know, you go into this room and they just have these little, you know, those little plastic slips that you put paper in inside of like a three ring binder and it's like the photos of the women like and there's like a handful of photos like one of them is a child one of them kind of like more recently and then they had a very brief kind of informational form on the back of just kind of like
[SPEAKER_04]: medical history, yeah, like drug use, background, education level, but like pretty minimal.
[SPEAKER_04]: Basic.
[SPEAKER_04]: And since Philip was not going to be a part of it, his family has like Eastern European descent.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we kind of had the back end of our mind that we wanted someone maybe like Eastern European and tall, because he's Eastern European and tall.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we could kind of pretend he was a part of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm 65.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if that shows.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm kind of hunting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you do have tall, but
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean jokes that I should get a booster seat for this conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, he's he's six five Hungarian his families from there and so that's where we were leaning was just kind of more people of you know that had the dark hair and the olive skin or whatever it might be but ultimately of course we were just going to choose whoever like what
[SPEAKER_04]: the best fit and then also once we choose them they then still have to come in and do like a lot of testing to make sure I'm now forgetting all the terminology but like there were certain levels that had to be a certain height because they want to make sure there is fertile as possible for their shevel and so there was like one or two that like just didn't work out where they didn't hit the markers or luckily the fertility clinic we worked with was just like incredible and there was one even that they were like
[SPEAKER_04]: listen this is a commitment for these women and we need to know that they're responsible and going to do what they need to do and this girl has kind of like flaked on a couple of appointments and we just think you should move on and so we were like okay thank you for that so we there was I had to go in multiple times for you know it's a transfers there's you have to do STD testing you have to do this sperm samples all these things so there was a couple of times
[SPEAKER_04]: without Philip, because like why you're coming with me for these medical tests you don't have to do, and I had to sit in this room, and I literally faced time to Philip, and it was like showing him the next round of women because the first one didn't work out, and so we landed on someone else, and after she came in, the clinic literally said to us, they were like, we think she's the one, like she's been so incredible, and also she's just,
[SPEAKER_04]: Beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like she was just so much more beautiful than her photos like we like this is the one for you for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it when like the sperm banked like when I was when I was choosing my sperm, we were between two at one point and I called them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I called them up and I was like, I don't know, can you give me any ideas and the one was like, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what.
[SPEAKER_02]: This one is a lot more attractive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you that right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like,
[SPEAKER_02]: He looks, I mean, he's a good looking guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, what about the other one?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is he not, but, you know, I love when they like... Yeah, they were really epic dating for us and like, and I loved that, you know, we worked with kind of the same.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a small fertility clinic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it wasn't one of these massive chains for lack of better words.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because again, in New York, there are some of these that are just like really big, like crank them out and this was a, you know, a tiny little place in Chelsea.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was nice to feel like we really had
[SPEAKER_05]: advocates and experience there the way we felt supported and advocated in that environment was just a total 180 from the experience with our adoption agency and so that also made it feel like we were in the right direction and you know maybe we didn't have all the answers right now or maybe there will be tons of bumps in the road but it's like okay there's hope better yeah finally there's like light at the end of the tunnel
[SPEAKER_02]: felt more aligned, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You felt good.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that really matters.
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk about that with my journey too, because I went through a lot of infertility.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was actually at a smaller clinic for the first two years, and my wife had conceived there as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we had been with them forever.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't feel right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Didn't feel right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I switched.
[SPEAKER_02]: I went to one of those big factory once.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it, but for me, that's what I needed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think it's totally person person person and what you need and for us, the vaccine is right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were hoping to because we knew we were going to be working with our best friend for the actual transfer and my best friend the other best friend my.
[SPEAKER_04]: Business partner had had such a wonderful experience with them in terms of her IVF and having her child.
[SPEAKER_04]: We felt good about being there kind of from start to finish because they would then also be able to do the transfer and monitor that side of it and not just be like a egg bank.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a really good point to bring like your instinct, your gut feeling really does matter on these journeys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you pick your beautiful gorgeous egg who's more beautiful than her pictures egg donor and she's anonymous, but anonymous, where where the child can contact at 18.
[SPEAKER_02]: Type deal are just completely anonymous.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: True anonymity doesn't really exist anymore because, you know, we got these genetic ones.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have one picture of her, and that's it, and now we weren't even to us to have, so.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that's truly it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you should be entitled to keep pictures.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, because you need to show your kid, you know, where she comes from.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, again, I think there was something about the anonymity of it all and like maybe down the road.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like this was, you know, just a, she was like 22 straight out of college, just trying to make some money, I think, and wanting to help a family, which is lovely.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's not the same as
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, a surrogate that wants to, like, the, that's the way I mean about an egg donor versus a surrogate of like this was just like here are my eggs by versus like I want to be a part of this family and be a part of the experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Both of them are gorgeous.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a, like, thank God for the helpers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for these people that are willing to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, I don't know why I'm saying God's will so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're being got people in this house.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but we're recording this when all this Jesus stuff is coming out with Trump and stuff So I think it's just on my mind.
[SPEAKER_05]: He was a doctor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, that he was red cross.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we talking about?
[SPEAKER_05]: It was Jesus.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, okay, I don't know why we just run out of pathway.
[SPEAKER_04]: We just can't you can't help yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's everywhere It's our lives that's terrible every day.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a new thing anyway, so the egg donor deposits are made by all and embryos are made
[SPEAKER_04]: So we only had, I want to say three that actually like fertilized out of like maybe 12 to 15 and then only so then we did the genetic testing by choice because again we just really wanted to maximize our I believe in science and I really wanted to you know
[SPEAKER_04]: Maximize our chances here because the expense didn't adjust for our best friend and for all of it, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So only one and a half were viable.
[SPEAKER_04]: One was negative.
[SPEAKER_04]: One was what's called a mosaic, where it's like something There's an abnormality, but it can correct itself in the womb.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you can transfer it and then one was like a plus and since we didn't care about gender like it was just like
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the one.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were choosing to only implant one at a time because of the possibility of splitting, like you really have to sign all this legal documents saying like, you're okay with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you implant two and you get triplets times two, you could have six kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, you know what I don't want that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we did the one and it took now we have our daughter so it was really like as truly you know minus the three years of getting there with the adoption and all these things once we got on this path and our best friend offered to be you know the carrier
[SPEAKER_04]: things really just kind of fell into place, considering how challenging of a process it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our best friend also lives in Virginia, so it's not like she lives locally, so that added another level of complexity for sure with where are we doing this, how are we doing this, as we mentioned earlier, the multiple states and their different laws, and so we had to have
[SPEAKER_04]: Do your lawyers, yeah, the lucky one too is a better for her in New York versus Virginia.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like what makes this the easiest all around and that was a big part of where she can deliver and where is this transfer happening?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where did you decide?
[SPEAKER_04]: Ultimately it was in Virginia.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it really wasn't actually that different between the two.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like, it was just easier because that's where she lives.
[SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, how do you plan this?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's like you're just going to come live with us for at least a month, kind of indefinitely as we wait around just in case.
[SPEAKER_04]: So once we found out there was no legal reason for us, you know, like if there are some states where like you can't get both names on the birth certificate and so Virginia was not one of those places.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it obviously was just easier for her.
[SPEAKER_04]: She still came up here for this fertility clinic for all the testing, for the transfer and that was
[SPEAKER_04]: definitely challenging because you go in.
[SPEAKER_04]: They do these tests.
[SPEAKER_04]: You want they want your lining to be a certain thickness and of course hers wasn't and we had returned flights book so we had to push so like we you know don't do things easily.
[SPEAKER_05]: No it's not easy to work so yeah all of the OGBI appointments were in Virginia everything was her doctor she was comfortable with her care team and
[SPEAKER_05]: and if it's an emergency like we wanted everyone to be close to her because we can always come.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's easy for us to come.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's less easy out in the later stages.
[SPEAKER_04]: She wanted a people to like, that we're delivering the child to be kind of people she had been working with throughout the pregnancy and not come up here just to deliver a child.
[SPEAKER_04]: around them doctor which is totally valid and I completely understand that and so you know she would face time us from the appointments we did go down for like the 20-week anatomy scan so we went down for like kind of the key appointments and then of course we were we went down for the delivery of course.
[SPEAKER_05]: She delivered at the UVA Hospital University of Virginia, that is where she and Jonathan went to college.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, just another full-circle moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the hospital is like right on, it's called the coroner, which is like where all the restaurants are, it's like literally on, we call it grounds, but on campus at UVA.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it was just like this very weird thing of like, she was in the hospital, we were waiting and waiting.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I would like go take these walks.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is like waiting, having these like flooded memories of this.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just like wasted dancing at these bars as she's like literally waiting for a baby to come out.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was so weird, full circle moments.
[SPEAKER_02]: Full circle.
[SPEAKER_02]: God's will.
[SPEAKER_04]: God's will.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, and the hospital, there were no issues with the hospital, they were all understood it.
[SPEAKER_04]: No issues, you know, there were a couple of hiccups.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, I'm just like, you know, A, we were in Virginia.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was like where New York would have been better for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we had to get a couple of exceptions that they did ultimately give us.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, technically, so we ended up having that, it wasn't an emergency section, but after trying for a while, you know, she was induced so that we could like be there and just for the people that don't know, typically when you're induced, labor just takes a lot longer because your body's not actually ready to give birth.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it was a very long couple of days of just like waiting.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then finally, when it was time to push, she did push for a couple of hours and
[SPEAKER_04]: preference was not tabussy section.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we, you know, we're willing to do whatever she wanted her body, like I don't care how this baby gets here.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it finally got to the point that the doctors were kind of like, you know, we'll do whatever you want, but like we're just not seeing progress.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we just don't like to see a woman like do this for this long and per her body through this when like we're not seeing any movement.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it ultimately was a sea section.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so traditionally only one, because why would every two, you know, the dad gets to go in for that sea section, but there was two of us, and they made an exception for us, both B and there, which was lovely and incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then there was like a little bit of a snafu of like, you know, that night staying over once we got moved to the actual manny ward as they called it versus like the maternity ward.
[SPEAKER_04]: We technically weren't supposed to have
[SPEAKER_04]: to people in there and so like I literally had to book a hotel room last minute for one of us to go stay somewhere else and of course after we booked it at like our baby our daughter was born a 11 15 p.m.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is all happening very late and they're like one of you's gotta go one of you's gotta
[SPEAKER_04]: So I've been to a hotel room.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had gone there to just be like, no, I'm gonna go take a shower, like fill up, sorry, you're sleeping there tonight.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's my best friend, like I gotta be here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then after we got put over there and we're like getting settled, they were like great news, like we got an exception.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you can all stay here and I was like, well, two late, we dropped hundreds of dollars on this hotel room.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he's gonna go, but thanks.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the second night did you ultimately say in the hotel room?
[SPEAKER_04]: And because there was one night where I slept in the chair and used left on the old outbed situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was like a hiccup.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there were just a couple of times where it's like you just obviously weren't well versed in the determinedology and and that stuff should have been taken care of ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like they should know.
[SPEAKER_05]: They did do a good job with some things they had at the top of her chart.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was a don't say mommy.
[SPEAKER_05]: really tried to get that privilege in there and like the two dads for a bitch like everything it seemed like they did their best for an environment that they are just just doesn't have much.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and so we felt like the trailblazers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah we certainly weren't like offended by anything like nothing bad happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: No one like treated us poorly.
[SPEAKER_04]: No one was like hey get out of here like what is this other man doing here but it wasn't there were there were a few hiccups that again just kind of
[SPEAKER_04]: Come with the territory, unfortunately, I think of being queer parents to be and in a place unlike New York City or LA, that's just like this is part of the course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Charlotte'sville Virginia is, I mean, a liberal city for Virginia, but it's still Virginia, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why more of us need to have kids so we can be the trailblazers in all the places.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So everybody get let's all get on board here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to need a room with my husband and if it makes you feel any better, I had an emergency section in my wife didn't make it in the room.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was, I was on my own.
[SPEAKER_04]: it was a rough experience in there so it was really good that I was in there because she was like throwing up you know as she strapped down and like they had a suction and out of her mouth so she wasn't choking as I'm like literally holding her head as she's like shaking violently like it was just oh my gosh it's an experience while remember for the rest of our lives and then not
[SPEAKER_04]: I would say not good way.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was with the baby.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was pretty traumatizing for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will say, oh my God.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're best friend, you know, literally getting cut open the amount of blood in all this and there's a lot of good.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's when it was like the level, that's where it was almost a detriment for it to be my best friend because I was so terrified of just like I wanted to be just fully present in this like joyous moment, but I was so hyper focused.
[SPEAKER_04]: on the well-being of my best friend who was just doing this out of the kindness of her heart.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why when that was happening, Philip went to the baby when she was born.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how it should be, too, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If it was your wife on the table, you'd be feeling the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it was Philip on the table, you'd be feeling the same way, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how it should be.
[SPEAKER_04]: Luckily, my wife wasn't there for it, so.
[SPEAKER_02]: She came in the right her to come in the room and after they had just pulled them out, she came in the room and she, I heard her holy shit, he's here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh God.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good times, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good memories, good
[SPEAKER_04]: That's something that we've been very intentional about from day one, you know, as we're talking about representation, you know, obviously Philip working in the publishing industry in the book world, like we really have gone out of our way to find queer children's books that have, you know, multiple dads and moms or families of different.
[SPEAKER_04]: make-ups and it's just one of those things that like you don't necessarily have the language to articulate and so these books even though they're meant for her, it's actually given us the language to communicate as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you know all families are different.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some people have one mom, some live with their grandparents and they surely aren't afraid to ask and their parents aren't necessarily around and so they'll be like, why doesn't like have a mommy?
[SPEAKER_05]: And so we have those lines prepped and ready because of these books.
[SPEAKER_05]: We use their language.
[SPEAKER_05]: We really think we're getting through them.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then they're like, did the mommy die?
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're not getting it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Lake doesn't know what that says yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not talking about this show.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, but that's the thing, like we're talking about it with our kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: get it and understand it and also they live it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're constantly reading these books to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're constantly giving them the language surrounding our family makeup.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have a dad.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a donor at who helped us make you and you have two moms.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so they hear it all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the other kids because they don't have to because the parents just get to be parents in the world are not having these conversations with their kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, the parents don't know how to answer either, is what I feel.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, they get to work, they get to work, they get to work.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're like, hey, and so like, it's earlier on, especially if the kids young enough, I, a lot of times will be like, you need to talk to your mom here to tell you about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, and kind of punch it, because like, I don't want to be, I don't, I don't know, I don't want any push back about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've even talked to some other parents, like, you should talk to your kid about how babies are made.
[SPEAKER_02]: on my kid knows my kids know since they were three like it's okay just it's just science y'all like you don't have to talk about private parts but you need to sperm and you need an egg and you need a body and you need a whore that's it and it's really easy for the kids to get especially when they're sitting there with their two daddies noticing that their two daddies don't have an egg oh my god so who gave you the egg like it's so easy
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Blake understands that Anne Katelyn was the one that like grew her and her belly and so she knows she has this special bond with her.
[SPEAKER_04]: We haven't like added it to the egg of it all, but like she others did because, you know, she's been very matter of fact about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I was actually speaking with my business partner about this yesterday.
[SPEAKER_04]: And
[SPEAKER_04]: It's never been like a upset about it or a question about it, but like she just will like randomly say to kids at the park or even to his Phillips mom the other day.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was just like, I don't have a mommy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we gotta like maybe start these conversations, especially now that she's in its preschool day care, whatever you wanna call it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's no other queer families in her family in her class.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so everyone's talking about mommy and daddy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so even in our imaginative play, she loves doing pretend.
[SPEAKER_04]: Someone's always mommy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not to play mommy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, or, you know, Elsa's mommy to land or whatever my be, but it's the way we're doing a lot of role playing with mommy for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: So things are spinning up there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and she's figuring it all out like my son because we're an all female household that our daughter and my son is the only boy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He also has the task of figuring out what it means to be a boy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So he plays with like boyhood and masculinity.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like in the same, like he's he's testing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's saying, well, I'm a boy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wear blue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you can ask where pink.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, let's go with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so he's trying to figure out where he fits in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's something our kids have that's uniquely special about them.
[SPEAKER_02]: figure out how they fit in a world that wasn't necessarily designed for the family that they came into.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it makes them, in my opinion, way more compassionate and way more loving individuals and empathetic to because they see, oh, oh, well, he's probably not like, doesn't feel the same as everybody, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do think.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when they get older, it's fun because my daughter's
[SPEAKER_02]: Now she, it's so fine because she should be like, she jokes about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: She should be like, so in her Spanish test, she has Spanish test and the question in Spanish was, what is your dad?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to get home from work?
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, she went up to the teacher and she's allowed because everybody knows she has two moms.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's like, I can't answer this question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a dad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course you do.
[SPEAKER_02]: You do have a dad.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't have a dad of two moms.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like she, and then she'll, like, if your friends are being quiet, she's like, mom, my new joke.
[SPEAKER_02]: You wanna hear my new joke?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was like, Lolo was being really quiet with me the other day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, she wasn't talking while we were walking.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, you remember, you remind me a lot of my dad right now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was like, you don't have it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, are you here?
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're equipping them with what they need to get along in this world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're smarter.
[SPEAKER_02]: My kid, my eight-year-old, he tells people kids all the time, no, you need a sperm and you need an egg.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, duh.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the kids are like, what does that mean, mom?
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, I had a mom say, oh, I haven't talked to him about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was like, well, you better start because Ryan's just going to keep telling your kids.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like y'all are doing a great intentional job with.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Human.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to try and.
[SPEAKER_04]: did you want to share about your books and or maybe the wedding planning anybody want to get Mary you do gay weddings I'm sure you know we do but less than you would think actually there are definitely wedding planners who just like really target themselves as kind of like an LGBT planner and we've had a handful this is an unusual thing but we actually work with a lot more lesbians and gay men and I like to say that
[SPEAKER_04]: like I think back to us like as a gay man like we all think we're the party planners we all think we can do it ourselves like why would I pay someone else to do this we're all so type a whatever it might be and so like the thought of maybe working with a wedding planner turns them off or maybe they want to work with a woman because a lot of us you know gravitate towards women and our best friends or women and so there's something about it but yeah we've had a handful of like gay men but we do
[SPEAKER_02]: for some reason attract more lesbian but I have a theory I have a theory because we're like I don't know what the hell to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know about flowers.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to find a game man to help us.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're not wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: The vibe is very different and there usually a lot more chill than our street couples to say the least.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and then your books.
[SPEAKER_02]: How many books do we have here?
[SPEAKER_05]: So I am at eight times published author, which is wild.
[SPEAKER_05]: My name became out in 2020.
[SPEAKER_05]: I started with young adult fiction, all queer, everything's good.
[SPEAKER_05]: So queer, YA fiction in the kind of contemporary space, I always think real world type situations are often more dramatic and also like, help teens kind of process what's going on with their own.
[SPEAKER_05]: kind of identity and also like helps non-beer readers understand what's going on and what they might not be seeing also I just love on stories so they're fun.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not I'm not going to teach.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I also write middle-grade stories.
[SPEAKER_05]: I
[SPEAKER_05]: wanted to kind of go down, get down the ladder a little bit into middle grade because it's just such a fun age range, especially in that library world where you're like looking for anything on the library that's queer, that looks like you a story about a kid throwing their small towns first pride festival, that was, you know, what's something that was really special to me.
[SPEAKER_05]: I write a lot of rural stories as well.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I have six novels, and then my other two books, the most ones that are most recent, are actually little golden books.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'll remember little golden book, the thousands of them that exist.
[SPEAKER_05]: They started doing a lot of autobiograph, or sorry, not autobiographies of famous people.
[SPEAKER_05]: Billy Porter.
[SPEAKER_05]: I got to write a really beautiful kind of tribute to Billy Porter's legacy even though I know he's still doing a lot of work out there.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's all right.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's done so much and it was able I was able to like get you know Amanda and address on a little golden book like it just it was so impactful and I was like this but
[SPEAKER_05]: you know, and this is for the four to eight range.
[SPEAKER_05]: So like this is what kids need to see.
[SPEAKER_05]: They need to see people who are subverting these kind of things, uh, to kind of gender expectations and just be themselves.
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, and then my most recent one, Do they aren't gay?
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Judy Garland and Liza Manelli have, I mean, gay and I think they like, they're in the club.
[SPEAKER_05]: to like biggest gay icons at all time.
[SPEAKER_05]: And was able to really just talk about their incredible story and make it, you know, there's been a lot of ups and downs and a lot of challenges and especially Judy's life.
[SPEAKER_05]: But to like write a book that was all about joy and really introduces kids, 48-year-olds, like this person really existed and she did so much to have the life she
[SPEAKER_05]: and gosh, the arts just so beautiful on these little golden books earlier.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I didn't do the art.
[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't do the art.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have some amazing illustrators that were partnered for those books.
[SPEAKER_05]: I published under the name Phil Stanford, anyone's interested.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you got pretty much anything for anyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody go out and get the books and if you're getting married, yeah, contact Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything will be in this show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this has been such a great conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Queer family but ghost.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whew!
[SPEAKER_02]: Well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: There really is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.