[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to feeding them out of the bite tube.
[SPEAKER_00]: A weekly podcast guide on parenting teens and launching them into the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Cynthia Gannoff, and as always, I'm joined by psychologists and author, Dr. Ken Wilgus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, hey, Dr. Ken, how are you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Cynthia, is this your first, did you just wake up and now you're doing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: You haven't done anything today?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't do anything all day.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just kind of hang out, wait for these things.
[SPEAKER_02]: What have you done today?
[SPEAKER_02]: A couple, couple, couple, couple, couple, couple, couple podcasts and man, you're a busy girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, here's the thing though, here's what I'd like to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about self-esteem today.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just cited, well first of all, I think you and I probably both have a fine self-esteem, because we both think we're right on any given topic.
[SPEAKER_00]: If given this one, which we're going to laugh about in a minute, but did you grow up, like if you look back on your life, would you say you grew up with a healthy self-esteem or not so much?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I grew up with an average self-esteem, which included, and we'll talk about this, which included periods of time that I felt horrible, horrible, seventh grade, really should be erased from most everyone's life, I mean, just, there are points, no, but in essence, I had insecurity about different things, almost a moving target really, what is he feeling incredibly insecure about now, but five years ago, I wasn't, you know, so it's a moving
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about that for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, same.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say probably an average self esteem in some areas.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was higher and in some areas, it's lower.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was never athletic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it always had like a little bit of a...
[SPEAKER_02]: Wilkins is in the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't do athletic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, now it's terrible because I married someone very athletic and our kids are athletic and then they're just mean about it, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, they would miss a ball like in a game or something like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, mom's jeans kicked in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, hey, thanks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm sitting here everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can hear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm excited to talk about this because and you and I were already starting to argue even before the podcast started.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're barely friends now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk in front of the children instead of alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what he said as we are arguing about he's like we should be taping this argument.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we're not really arguing, but we were discussing this whole idea around self esteem and my guess would be that Dr. Ken would say having.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know this yet, everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm guessing, but that he is going to say and self esteem overrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was already cutting him off and saying, listen, I'm reading all the studies out there and by studies, I'm Googling.
[SPEAKER_02]: chat to VT you're doing yes you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm pop cultureing it and how important self-esteem is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you and I were starting to squabble on this and I was like you cannot tell me it doesn't matter and you're like, well, hit record.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're causing everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's important because now and I think that's an important thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was everything we talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't know about you, but as an old guy, I use AI, which is actually large-language models.
[SPEAKER_02]: I use AI just as a fancy Google search.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like just answer my questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you do that or a Google search, you'll get what feels like confident summaries about these things that
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not wrong, but they're not right, either.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to really sell itself a steam, for example.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've read quite a bit about the research, both the research has done, the research design that was done, because you've got to ask yourself, okay, we don't have an x-ray for self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do you define it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And when people are talking about my teenager's self-esteem, which is what we'll be talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are we all talking about the same thing?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then how do you measure it above all that stuff?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so let's talk about that because when I'm thinking of self-esteem without having read anything or chat GPT my way into this, I just I think naturally is a lay person I think it's just how my child fills about themselves what do they think about themselves and that's what I go to is that is that are working definitions so to speak.
[SPEAKER_02]: pretty much and it you know it started to get big when I was in training not that long before I know you know James Thompson talked about self esteem and and it was you know based on the not surprising discovery that if you berate a child and and they are really feel terrible about their own ability to do a thing they'll actually underperform you know
[SPEAKER_02]: back in the day when you could moderately harm a little kid self esteem just for research you know they were right when that was just okay and yeah yeah we got all the kids become the good kids and those things that were horrified like can't believe you did that
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, just a little injury, but but we know that when you tell children that, you know, for example, you're terrible at math, then it does have a certain degree of effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's no question that kids that were berated and underrate their own ability, it can affect them negatively because they are overcritical of their own performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so at the end of the day is self-esteem, the goal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a good self-esteem, is that the goal?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't mean the ultimate.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the very only thing we care about.
[SPEAKER_00]: But is the goal when it comes to self-esteem?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we working towards that as a parent?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that really critically important?
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to us with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's probably what I would surprise you about is that no, I wouldn't make it a large goal and critically important.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's important, but not critical.
[SPEAKER_02]: So to put that, and this is the thing that I wanted to make sure you and I argue about, is that if a parent is putting that at the top,
[SPEAKER_02]: like above all, I want my children to come away with high self esteem, just meaning not based on their actual performance or relationships or whatever, just a general almost medication-induced good self image.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just feel good about me.
[SPEAKER_02]: That can be a dangerous thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a matter of fact, when we did some research really meta studies, like that's when you look at dozens of studies on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find an inner city drug dealer that's a PIMP who feels pretty good about himself.
[SPEAKER_02]: And well, he's got a high self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_02]: What else can you say?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can say a lot more about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your self-image, your self-assessment, when we take it as a free-floating, almost force.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we did.
[SPEAKER_02]: We went from seeing that really low-negative self-esteem can under, can cause children to underperform.
[SPEAKER_02]: We then went the other way too hard, and we're saying, you know, if we can crank up your self-esteem, that will not only give you confidence to perform your best, but it will also, and this is the biggest part, it will translate into a kind of benevolent character toward everyone else.
[SPEAKER_02]: That has definitely not turned out to be true, and having a very strong image of yourself, not based on your own performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: is essentially narcissism.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the only point I want to make.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm definitely and you're helpful to me because I can overdo it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I like because I hear so much about self-esteem that I can end up sounding like I'm saying, well, self-esteem is nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that bad, but I definitely would calm parents down that are worried above everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: My seventh grade daughter does not have high self-esteem about herself.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's pretty standard.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be crippling, but it's also important to tell that would be my first jumping ahead.
[SPEAKER_02]: First recommendation is that I think as a parent, you shouldn't flip out, especially in early adolescence.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that our teenagers who are more and more isolated don't know is,
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone felt terrible about their body in that awkward stage between childhood and adulthood and you know, it's kind of an awkward stage anyway But none of us looking at these kids think you look terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: They do they feel terrible about how they look and you know very commonly So that would be one thing is to help
[SPEAKER_02]: yourself as well as your teenager to normalize that there is a certain amount to be expected of assuming that you are, you know, basically to be overly critical of yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and even a step further, I would say in that too, is that not only is that normal, but I think that does create empathy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is one of the tips of it is that it does create a sense of empathy, it allows you, I don't know, some humility, some of those things, I look back on some of the places not even as as young as junior high, although then as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But some of the places that I have felt these insecurities or, you know, it's been a lower self-esteem area for me and I think, wow, I really appreciate it when someone can do it well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it's not going well for someone, I want to be like, hey, I'm here with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I do think there's that empathy component that is hard to teach without having a few of the hard knocks along the way of realizing I'm not all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say that's number two.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if point number one is to help your teenager to put it in perspective, that this is common in different stages of life, that then leads to your point, which is it's also important to know that every other teenager that your teenager knows, struggles with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's very common is that a teenager will
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... underestimate the suffering of those around them uh... as and kind of assumed this i think happens a lot now is that you assume that you are being ignored or undervalued or mistreated by a bunch of other people who just go off whistling and they feel great no they do not you are not understanding the human condition so that would be the the second part is that yeah you don't like you but guess what that guy that was really mean to you today he doesn't like him either he doesn't like himself
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and so I always think of it as the American Idol parent situation because, you know, Mike and I still have all the time when we'd watch American Idol back in its heyday about, you know, you'd have, I mean, incredible talent come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just to have some just dog performances.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the parents are being interviewed on the side.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, from the day they were born and we knew they were going to be a singer, you know, that just,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, seeing like a large and you're like, no, they stink and no one's told it and now they're on the American idle stage and so Mike and I would always joke and say we are not going to raise an American idle kid now we probably have gone the other extreme at times and haven't been as rude as to be like your terrible math but been like
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, maybe you should think of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that that is good, but I think- What's a little line?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think there are parents listening that if we pull the video of some of the way you interacted with you these older two particularly, I think you'd have some people go, you shouldn't do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, your kids are gonna be fine, and I think that's important that you're realistic.
[SPEAKER_02]: So number three is that you establish a steam, self-esteem based on what?
[SPEAKER_02]: things that they're good at.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so really the stage of just automatic love no matter what, that's obviously good for toddlers.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then by even elementary school, you can tell you're three-year-old who just traced his hand and made a turkey that it's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: but by seven and say oh this is amazing you're seven year old will go no it's not amazing Audrey's amazing my stuff is they're already beginning to evaluate that and finding that patronizing sort of good for you things already fading so instead you know teenagers really do need to be assessing they have been for a few years even before adolescents.
[SPEAKER_02]: assessing what they really are good at and what they're not good at.
[SPEAKER_02]: By this point though, I think you can begin, and this is point number three, is assessing yourself not just based on what you can do and not do, but your character overall and how you see yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's part of the kind of cognitive development of beginning to really see yourself as an eye separate from everyone else, able to think the way other people are thinking, but also beginning to recognize the value
[SPEAKER_02]: of what you can do and how you handle what you can't do and your compassion to others.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's proper self-esteem, so that not being good at everything that your friend is good at is not as important as other things that young adults can begin to think about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you a loving person, are you a kind person, are you
[SPEAKER_02]: trustworthy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are larger things than just, you know, can I play the piano as good as my best friend?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we air towards wanting our kids to have confidence at the expense of feeding into the competence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of what you're staying there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that's the American auto one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But are they actually good at that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just going to give us some like give us some like wording some language around that because I think our tendency and we're in a culture that's going to be like you just tell them that great everything you're great at math and science.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember with one of mine, one of mine was looking at a degree plan like for college because apparently now when you go to college at a whopping 17 or so, 18 when you're applying, you have to know what you want to be, what school of whatever you want to be in, all these things, I'm like, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this kid can barely get out the door on time and, you know, eat something for breakfast and you want them to decide their major, but I remember one of our kids said, you know, I really think I'd like to, it wasn't engineering but something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be like, bro,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, I mean, as you see your SAT score and the math such and I did, and why do you think pretty, but I didn't say that I said, well, let's really think about what you enjoy and what you're good at.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what should the language be?
[SPEAKER_00]: Should we be calling it out if they don't see it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the first things is when they say terrible things about themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am the dumbest, whatever, that's often a landmine for parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: For a teenager, I would definitely not say, no, you're very good at that, that's just not helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's very much more helpful to use language like, I figured, I thought you'd say that, why is that?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it about you that you in this area?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it you expected from you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you know, you basically why are you assessing yourself that way?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the reason that you gave yourself this score?
[SPEAKER_02]: And a teenager that is just kind of sulking doesn't want to go into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you know, you don't like me either.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's almost like, I don't know, like manipulatively pulling for empty support.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would actually not be afraid to ask them, why do you think that you're no good at that?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that you keep saying that about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are kids with higher self-esteem?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they more resilient kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on what they're dealing themselves on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the kid that has has very high sense of themselves because their mommy and daddy always told them they were great is very much not resilient.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's research for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: that they need to establish like everything we talk about in this podcast with adolescence.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is important for adolescence now to establish and will they will be resilient or fragile based on how they see themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Simply cranking up your, oh, your fine boy parent voice will not help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless it'll help as long as that adult never really leaves a tight little tethering around their mommy and daddy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I worry that that happens rather a lot that people are, they feel very smart about themselves because that's what they were told at home.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when they go out in the world, they find out that they're not.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they kind of trickle back home, rather than deal with, how do you see you?
[SPEAKER_02]: And certainly reward.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That thing that you don't feel good about, I gotta be honest, I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not gonna be your thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what about this thing and help them
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember hearing someone say a parenting expert in the day talking about and I agree with it talking about you don't want your kids to peak in high school like you really If that's the top we're in trouble like let them get to college and young adulthood, but let's not have our finest hour be our junior in high school and I remember laughing at that, but thinking it's true because we've seen that you know that kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of us know that kid that was, it doesn't have to be this type of kid, but, you know, the quarterback or the varsity cheerleader or whatever and had, you know, homecoming queen and all these things, and then they take the college and they're kind of like one of the crowd, and they just don't have to deal with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just wonder if that's some encouragement, too, because of course, we want self-esteem, but at what cost?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we still want them, we still want them to have their best days ahead of them outside of our home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just encouragement on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do think we're still talking about step one in the way you respond is to be patient with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would not panic over hearing comments that are very self-deprecating, that's not something to really panic about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would ask about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't do an automatic cheer them on and then really kind of assess if it is continual and is basically affecting their ability to do anything to take anything on.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_02]: That self-esteem is now a moderate symptom or a partial symptom of probably major depression.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you really have an issue,
[SPEAKER_02]: Then self-esteem is just a little piece of it if it's all about just self-esteem and everything else goes Okay, well, you're making too big a deal out of self-esteem But it can be an earlier Sign of basically Constant negative thoughts that are almost a kind of Obsessive negativity that is actually a symptom of depression
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, is there a tipping point for parents where it goes from encouragement and building them up to actually putting unnecessary pressure on our kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, I think a lot of times that's most active in childhood before adolescence, because by adolescence, if you are really pressuring them hard, by mid-adolescence, most all teenagers will let you know that it's pressuring them by pushing back, giving up a star career or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's one of the things I like about teenagers is that it is harder to completely overwhelm them with your own goals and so forth as a parent because you're a smaller part of their life than when they were children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was in college, Dr. Ken, there was this kid that I would to high school with, but he was then in college with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he, nice looking kid, big weight lift, or all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And kind of a jock type.
[SPEAKER_00]: But every time we'd want to go to dinner or do something, he'd be like, I need to text my mom and see if that's OK. Now, this is not a kid that had financial constraints on any level.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I remember being like, now, this is the weirdest thing ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happening?
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't think that was cute.
[SPEAKER_00]: it was no longer attractive.
[SPEAKER_00]: What started off did not say, but talk to us a little bit about, just that you, I mean, this is what you're all about, is transferring responsibility, hand it back to them, but that does build self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wonder if this kid who seems so confident, I mean, does it ding yourself a steam when you have to, you have to check him with mom before you make a dinner plan?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it reflects a significant lack of self-confidence and independence.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, as we say, the hardest part about parenting teenagers is that you are training your teenagers to not need you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that, you know, so I say this all the time, you know, when a
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've got a less than two-year-old granddaughter who needs to be given affection and warmth and whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's easy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm sure her mom will tell you is not always easy, but you want to give her that thing she wants.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then by elementary, you know, kind of level and by childhood,
[SPEAKER_02]: they really need to know what am i good at what things can i learn and there's often some of us that uh... yeah i'd love to teach you that because i'm i like that there's people that will line up because they and then in other words there's people who want to give what they need
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you've arrived at a stage in life where they need to not need you and you need to be able to give them what is, you know, feeding them out is like giving them the training in how to not need me and that's really hard and it's really hard for moms and we'll talk about that another time, but
[SPEAKER_02]: But self-esteem then has to include, like I said, not, well, no, we think you're great.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, why do you say that?
[SPEAKER_02]: You've always said that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you really think that that's a problem for you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we don't, but it doesn't matter what we think.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems to really be your view of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think that is?
[SPEAKER_02]: And really encourage them, even if it's not pleasant.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't just keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're wrong about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You do want to kind of guide them through what about their view, and their view may not be as unrealistic as you think.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there is look up the Dunning Kruger effect was one of my favorite studies, which is when you give people tests and things like math or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: rated their ability higher than those who knew more, which is exactly my experiencing graduate school.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I got into my masters in psychology, I was like, this is the bomb.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna learn everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I finish going, whoa.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know as much, and then I go, okay, it's the University of Texas psychology program.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm a doctor, and I'm going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot I do not know, but kids that are given this constant good for you run a risk of thinking that they're quite the genius at stuff because they don't even know that they don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I remember when our middle son took the PSAT like a ninth grade and he came home He's like, I don't know what the big deal is like that was not hard nailed it And then we got his score and he was like, oh my gosh And I was like sometimes when you feel like you know it That's the first sign of like, oh gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: I missed the whole concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she's calling we might want to edit that little story out of it's up to him
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he would laugh about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I bet he would.
[SPEAKER_02]: He would.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a TL over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, no, really.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's become a meme in your family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we do in that again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be the PSAT kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: What about our kids that their self-esteem is propped up on something?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, being the cheerleader, or being the drama, or the whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know that's the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we also know, because we're adults, like, real-life adults that have lived some life, that if that thing goes away, that's going to sting.
[SPEAKER_00]: do we have concerns when we see it really or even on a boyfriend or a girlfriend you know there's this place is where you sit you're like man we've got all eggs and the basket that is probably not going to be there forever.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that brings up a really important aspect of all that I heard a psychologist say that I agree with said the reason the thing that we put our children and sports for is mainly so they can learn how to lose.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, the idea that no, no, no, my third grader is going to be a professional baseball player.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's a little unlikely, and it's not really our goal, but there is a huge amount of character building.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when it is completely dependent on their excellence in that thing, I cannot tell you how many teenagers I've had that what triggered their depression was an injury.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, she was the volleyball scouted all that and her ankle rolled and she's out and and does not really have connections and friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was all not about the sport, the good part learning about camaraderie team losing, you know, it was about her as an individual.
[SPEAKER_02]: excellent athlete so i would be particularly careful with that that it's great for your kid to be all about a thing uh but be careful about what it is that they're all about i don't like uh bring up my own stuff but i think i've told you i played french horn and high school
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I'm telling you and it made up for a lot of other things and I was an all state and had an offer for scholarship to college and a friend of mine was at Juilliard and was telling me about the how the ballerinas were just the bomb and.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just knew early on, and my parents were very clear about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were following this.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a thing that I would really want to spend my whole life doing, even though I had ability in it, because number one, there was always just a handful, and that's all there is in the country.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a handful of French-owned players that were really better than me.
[SPEAKER_02]: and that will always be there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't that good.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think keeping in mind both the great experience of it, the confidence that it gave me, but also keeping it in perspective that that's a high school avocation that I set aside and it did it really accomplished everything, but being a professional musician was nothing that that's not what it accomplished.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, you lost me at French horn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still trying to picture that picture.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm telling you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually had that big round horn.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're having a hard time because I'm such a small person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, since you throughout your bragging, I went everyone to know that I was first chair all state clarinet.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, okay, that's hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are case and point for two people that have a pretty high self esteem considering our backgrounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You end up doing weird little podcast rather than the movie stars or genius that we're in supposed to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's wrap up with this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want our kids to do hard things, but we also know in hard things, like the French horn people.
[SPEAKER_00]: It may not end well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's this juxtaposition that I've always felt of like, yes, you should totally try out for that, because I want them to have the experience, even though I'm like you're terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just help us with that,
[SPEAKER_00]: going for hard things like especially in our family that's something we've always said we're just going to do hard things that kind of people we're going to be But we're also going to realize that when you do hard things that you will fail some and we just trust at the end of it that there's all kinds of lessons in fact I had my daughter on my podcast recently
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were talking about parents as said, what's one like thing you take away from our house and she said character counts twice and she keeps saying that character counts twice.
[SPEAKER_00]: You figure out character counts twice when you fail because your character shows up when you fail not necessarily when you succeed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just wonder on that, is someone's listening to this and are like, yeah, I'm struggling because I want to protect them from going after certain things because I know it's going to put a ding on their self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you just have words for that around that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the way you put it is right that when your kid is having what might you might think is self-esteem problems.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've kind of been abandoned by their friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: They failed at this
[SPEAKER_02]: thrown over by a boyfriend, things like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Within reason, as long as it doesn't sink them completely, it is probably a necessary aspect and a period that they go through where they really do esteem themselves lowly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's part of what is what you said.
[SPEAKER_02]: The larger frame here is developing your character, how to be part of other people's lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what the goal of our lives are, not some odd kind of maybe you can be the first,
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what, you know, to win this award, to gain this fame, that is never been as highly gone after as it is now in our culture and I think it's a kind of deprivation.
[SPEAKER_02]: We really are kids need to learn how to go through hardship and assess how are you assessing yourself, why are you saying that you are ugly or not smart or whatever?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is your criterion for that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is helpful because I think if anything, we can walk away saying we don't have to, you know, we don't have to put them, um, pad them up and all the things in order to make sure they don't fall and hurt their self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know what, that it's not the end all be all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's places where we, um, are all we've all felt in securities.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's a good word in that we don't want to be American Idol parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I guess more than anything, I'm just thankful you and our still friends because man pre-taping there was there's some moment in there where like, are you, which way are you going with this start to can you can tell everybody?
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Since they're still like, she stood up and leaned into the microphone, it was fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was always furious.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, listen, we're gonna end there, but I want the all to know that next week's show, we're gonna start with a French horn solo.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have a whole story on that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we will not, and I'll tell you why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, tune in for the next one, and you'll get the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Goodbye.
[UNKNOWN]: Bye.