[SPEAKER_01]: There's two major things we need to talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: One, the final exchange between Wilson and Matt, but two, the crazy lack of awareness from that doctor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, this is folks from work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to another episode of Friends From Work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I podcast about all things in the Marvel Cinematic Universe hosted by myself, Kyle Skonewil, and my longtime friend from work, Robbie Earl.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not really kidding.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe that doctor.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all,
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we're talking about Daredevil born again, season two episode six today, the doctor in the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, the weirdest doctor, I'm sitting with my wife who's a physical therapist.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, is this normal and on a cause like, I've never heard a doctor talk like this ever in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, the fact that he would like go in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I almost couldn't tell if it was satire, like were they trying to make him so goofy?
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like the beautiful,
[SPEAKER_01]: darkness and it's been my sad honor to be a part of her death with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like first of all no doctor would ever talk about that but in second of all the crazy lack of self-awareness to say that to Fisk like you just watch this dude kill a guy essentially publicly televised in the boxing ring with two punches and now you're going to go say you're happy to be a part of his wife's death and then trying to go for a hug?
[SPEAKER_01]: What the actual.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I can't
[SPEAKER_05]: I was, uh, I was watching with Candace and one, you know, they, they made a point to introduce that doctor last episode and to be like, Oh, he's the best and I'm optimistic and, yeah, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, no reason to be optimistic.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it was like, well, this is clearly not going to end well.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then when he walked back in,
[SPEAKER_05]: And Fisk was just sitting by the bed.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't can't.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like no, yeah, this isn't going to work.
[SPEAKER_05]: This guy's dead for sure and it's going to be horrific in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the thing about the last week, how about me last week, by the way, on our podcast clip.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said he might not actually be safe at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, like, call that like that doctor's probably not going to make it before this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, like, yeah, that's going to still change.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's still going to kill.
[SPEAKER_05]: I.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think one thing this episode did, well, was make you really feel for Fisk, because, you know, again, they've shown how important that relationship is to him and to us like Vanessa and Fisk has been, I mean, what's the episode one that's been like a piece of the Daredevil show.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so you you feel that, but at the same time,
[SPEAKER_05]: you have to keep stepping back and saying like yeah but he has killed so many people including now like one of the best surgeons I guess in the state so however many people that surgeon can't now say so they like it's this tension of like Denoprio does such a great job making you feel
[SPEAKER_05]: like actually sympathize with him and feel that loss to the point where when people get to city hall and they're like, no, like, you know, she's part of the problem, like we're not going to mourn for now.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you're like, how, like, that feels dark, but then again, like she's the reason that foggy died, you know, and like she and Wilson never shut a tear over all the people that they killed.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's a complicated thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, even that scene, but to go back to your comment, it's, it is absolutely wild.
[SPEAKER_05]: But that doctor thought that that exchange was going to go any different.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, the lack of self awareness.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's our first impressions.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
[SPEAKER_04]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's great, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was everything for everyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I think it works.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're kind of actually getting at this already.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about the very last exchange with Matthew and Fisk, where Fisk goes down into like the dungeon or whatever, and he's staring at the painting, he's so defeated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved so much about everything, everything about this scene I loved.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love there are a couple of visual cues, which I saw some people post online, straight from comics, straight from comics, the shadow of the Daredevil horns, highlighting Fisk's face, and then the need to his head is the devil's reign cover, which our friend Tanner posted in 10%.
[SPEAKER_01]: um, I also loved so much that they just started by talking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a second, my life and I were almost giddy and this is going to sound so backwards because it's an action show.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were almost giddy about them actually just solving it right then and there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I thought for a second, they might actually work this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought it was really high level, good dialogue about we're both a poison.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you we clearly both see this can't work, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I want to get at though.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about this so much on the show that last line from Wilson, which is, what are you going to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: You won't, you can't imprison me and you won't kill me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, it's literally the Joker and Batman, like we're just destined to do this forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what, that's the whole point of Daredevil.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt the same way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of agreed with Wilson.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, what is the point of this, I guess?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we can keep punching each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the point of it?
[SPEAKER_01]: The only point of it, I guess, is that Wilson actually finishes the job and kills Daredevil.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's never going to go the other way around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, obviously that this whole debate comes to a head with Karen this episode where she's kind of losing it because of what you were joking about how many people have died because of this right and so that's also how I feel about the show in general going forward we talked about this
[SPEAKER_01]: how long can they make this be the focal point?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there isn't an end because neither person can budge.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how long can you make this dramatically interesting?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they did again here, but I'm just saying, are we gonna do this for four more years?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we doing this for one more year?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we doing this for two more episodes?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like at some point, there has to be another plotline.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as of now, it's a perfect encapsulation of how I feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're trapped and there's nothing, there's no solution to this story, which makes the end of this season incredibly intriguing because I have no idea where they're going to go with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, I even thought maybe they were going to talk them off a ledge for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what I mean, that line that Wilson summed up the whole thing for me.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, and it was a nice, I mean, I think the last time we've really saw them engage.
[SPEAKER_05]: was that first diner scene in season one.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like I know they saw each other at the at the ball and everything.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the last time they really talked plainly to each other was when they were both agreeing, you know, Fisk is going to keep everything above board.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if he does like Daredevil doesn't come back.
[SPEAKER_05]: and then they both cross those lines and now they're kind of back here again in a way that feels so reminiscent of the end of season one and the end of season three.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so yeah, I thought the way that they handled it both as the culmination of all these other confrontations
[SPEAKER_05]: journeys and like losses where you see them both kind of it's like neither of them are really happy or not they'll be happy but neither of them are excited or super motivated or passionate about fighting each other in that moment like yeah they're almost kind of like
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, even I loved whenever the fight starts, and this is coming after him, and that's just dodging it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not really fighting back.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's sort of this effort was, like, it actually reminded me of that, of like, the moment in Quantumania at the very end, when they just watched, oh nice, when Scott punches.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Kang and he kind of has the, like,
[SPEAKER_05]: the like condescending smile and then he like comes back where there was this kind of like okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: And obviously Fisk and Daredevil, that's not the dynamic because they are kind of evenly matched.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I it was interesting seeing like normally by the time Matt finally gets to Fisk, he's so mad at him and he's so frustrated with the corruption and that nobody else sees it that
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I was so cool to have them have the conversation too.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it was, and even even Fisk, like, you know, he gets triggered.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think by Matt mentioning Vanessa, but after his kind of initial outburst, yeah, like you're talking, you're right, like the line there where he's just kind of recognizing the futility of it, especially now that Vanessa's gone.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think because I think that was the only
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, what is his purpose?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's his goal?
[SPEAKER_01]: Fisk at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I know Matt wants to stop him from doing these things but the city can be more peaceful and people can live their lives and not be interfered with.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Fisk at this point, having lost Vanessa, I feel like there was most of him that wanted to conquer these worlds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: for her or with her like so that's someone else recognized it as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've really only known him in that like through that lens essentially for a long time now.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a few episodes for sure before she jumped on board.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I actually was surprised and I guess pleasantly surprised.
[SPEAKER_01]: with how the handled Wilson in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I thought once she died at the end of episode five, this episode was gonna be just him snapping.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like now he goes out and kills everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not anticipate we were gonna get a defeated Wilson.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's looking out the window realizing all these people are mad about him as a mayor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like what I'm doing didn't work.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's riots and like there's more vigilantes than ever because of this and instead of like going out and just like killing everyone he just retreats like out of depression
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't see that coming, and I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So him to sit down, Sarah's being like, I don't, and then Matt's saying, this isn't about New York, is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and he says, no, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, wow, that I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was, yeah, it was such a better story be.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because it does, if that feels right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you still see, again, you see the moments of rage
[SPEAKER_05]: but not what I was thinking though right no and it feels like I'm sure at some point you know if he comes if he's confronted with bullseye again then I'm sure we'll see him go all out but you know even Matt you know Matt had that line where he said I think it was last episode
[SPEAKER_05]: like I was there and you know for Fisk that's enough for him to want to kill me just because of the proximity.
[SPEAKER_05]: And even that you didn't really feel in the scene.
[SPEAKER_05]: And
[SPEAKER_05]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like it, it was, it really was, uh, it was the kind of conversation that I often wish you would get in these kinds of shows where it's just the stuff that's going unsaid and you never have just, you never have the time for the protagonist in
[SPEAKER_05]: But like, even Matt promising to leave New York, I think is interesting.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, like, because, like, do you think just had even offered that?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, like, do you think he would, he would even really do that?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, is it really just fisc that keeps him
[SPEAKER_05]: wanting to go like, you know, it was a muse that kind of brought him back out on the first place because he wanted to...
[SPEAKER_01]: not like he was seeing people get killed and I think he just knows it's so bad that this is the most important contribution he can make at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Matt's an interesting character to be looking at as well because it feels like in a lot of ways his character is an inverse of season three of Netflix, Daredevil, in that
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in that season, Matt was the jaded one and ready to cross the line deciding that this wasn't worth it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We probably should just kill Fisk until the final moment and then he kind of has this breakthrough and decides he's not going to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But throughout this entire season, he has been the one that is reserved, like Karen, what has happened to you, even the way he approached Fisk here with so much calm and offering
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a different map than we've had.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a super, like he's not on like a revenge kick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I know he likes the fighting in the Daredevil outfit, which by the way, he's been in the Daredevil costume for most of the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's been so glorious.
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, his black costume is fading, and it's showing the red.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's just remarkable to me that he hasn't basically lost his cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the one that keeps being like, no, this is the plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Karen, what has happened to you, Wilson, we got to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought that was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: We really haven't seen him like this.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, I mean, it does feel like the first time he's been in an actual leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the difference.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, even the very end with the Daredevil masks showing up at the city hall protests,
[SPEAKER_05]: that is straight from the Zarski run when Daredevil kind of becomes the symbol and around the same time that you're kind of having the devil's rain stuff.
[SPEAKER_05]: But for slightly, for slightly different reasons, but yeah, it's like this is a whole, this is a piece of or a side of Daredevil that we've never seen and we've never
[SPEAKER_05]: want to embrace.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now gets me intrigued for the future.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I kind of want to see him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see him embrace it with like you're laying up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, which I think we should talk about that we we will actually have an interesting just following up segment today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have a great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I'm panicking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's my phone because I had a great question for from a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's let's get into friendly feedback brought to you by our friends at panelbound comics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll do our back.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm very happy right now.
[SPEAKER_04]: One more word.
[SPEAKER_04]: Please give me one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Woo!
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm over God.
[SPEAKER_04]: Go into the complex of the disposal.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, found my phone for the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Robby, what worked and what didn't work?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of what worked.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just some small notes here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to start with something outside of the major and first impressions we just did?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is, by the way, my main takeaway.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's always been 15 minutes on that, just stuff.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, you know, I would say one thing that that worked really well for me was the Daniel B.B.
[SPEAKER_05]: stuff and the episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm totally great and I yeah, I which I haven't I haven't disliked that stuff for the rest of the show, but I feel like it hadn't really materialized into anything substantial.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like a highlight yet of the show.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but yeah, I thought that was like a lot of subtle to you from both of those actors.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like the scene with her walking around his room and they're again, there's just a, that was done really artfully because there's a world where they kind of hit us over the head with.
[SPEAKER_05]: with her feeling guilty for a specific reason and there's too much dialogue and it could kind of be like a show and or a talent not show, but I think that they communicated so much just with looks from both of those actors like the way he's looking, before he blows out the birthday cake candles.
[SPEAKER_05]: And,
[SPEAKER_05]: Also, just on that note, the, that one transition from Daniel, where he's doing the same, he like has the exact same pose as Fisk when it cuts to Fisk, and they were just continuing to kind of highlight some similarities, which is intriguing.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I thought that to me was something that worked well this time around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also love that it felt really appropriate, timely and culturally appropriate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you, yeah, on paper, you have two people that are like see the world very differently and because of their life decisions, BB choosing to leak these anti-fist stories and because
[SPEAKER_01]: Daniel is now working for Fisk like Daniel is also aware that Fisk and Buck are a problem with certain things like he's traumatized about what he just had to do and like I don't think Daniel likes that part of himself yet either now maybe his loyalty can eventually trump that and you know he can like kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: push it down and ignore it, but he's uncomfortable with certain things, but he's in a role now where he's kind of stuck and BB's uncomfortable with certain things like when she actually gets to know him and and meet his mother and see that he has like a child's room with pictures of himself, she grows an empathy for him to the point where they almost kiss, but also realizing like what are we doing because
[SPEAKER_01]: We're totally on opposite sides working against this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're both in trouble if something doesn't happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it just feels like very not that a lot of people in culture are going to kill if they don't do something.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's like what it feels like to disagree and see the world from two totally different perspectives, but both feel stuck in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're never going to be able to change the other person's perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was active well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also just felt like it was timely kind of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which by the way, the holes, we haven't talked about that very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole season is definitely like, I think hitting the audience right where they are for the most part.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're an average American watching this show, like, I'm not saying that Donald Trump is Wilson Fisk.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not trying to get political.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying there's like a heightened awareness of
[SPEAKER_01]: people that have less than and a 30 figures and power and politics and scandal and yeah feeling afraid and riots and violence and you know just it feels like in general you're not watching you know this is that like you know something super unrelatable is all trussed yeah you know I mean kind of pointy it
[SPEAKER_05]: some interesting questions about kind of what it looks like to resist and to fight against corruption and and and power that's wielded unjustly.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's where a lot of the Matt Karen debates come in and bulls
[SPEAKER_01]: the trial with the swordsman like there are some and now these two wrestling with their own like purpose, I guess, by the end of the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what are we doing here?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_05]: It has it's something where
[SPEAKER_05]: sometimes I see things one that are trying too hard to be timely and it's really difficult to do that because by the time you you make the thing you're responding to is yeah it's moved on but also it just feels it doesn't it feels manufactured and I think this show has never felt like that which I really appreciate but I think
[SPEAKER_05]: The part of that is because it's doing something that is both timely and also kind of universal.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think again, that takes a lot of careful balancing.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think the way that they have done that throughout the whole season to kind of like reiterate your point.
[SPEAKER_05]: it's not just that it is timely, I think that the way that they have done something timely is really impressive.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the way that they have not kind of given into the, like, the instinct that I think a lot of these, these shows or movies can have to just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: do the most on the nose thing even though you know I think I'm again I'm sure some people think this is on the nose and so far as there is well it's not as on the nose or it's not as forced I guess because it's from the source material like these are right these are the interactions at the care like this is a very accurate depiction of how a picture will
[SPEAKER_01]: they're doing the characters like they're doing them justice they're telling the right story it just so happened that culture started reflecting this story which it's not the other way around I guess it doesn't feel to me like they were like oh this is what's happening let's tell a story this could work for Fisk you know or whatever yeah or Daredevil um it feels like it was kind of the inverse like no we got to tell the story it's from Devil's Rain and you know there's one
[SPEAKER_05]: and echo, you know, came out in what January, 2024, so it's not as though any of that was a reaction to, but yeah, I think that that has been handled with a lot of sensitivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, fun to see Jessica Jones again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, wow.
[SPEAKER_05]: We not talked about Jessica Jones yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has a child and did we know that she has a child from her show?
[SPEAKER_01]: So like by season three of her show, did she have a child or was that news to people?
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's news.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I never watched season three of that show.
[SPEAKER_05]: I watched the first two seasons and the second season was broke me.
[SPEAKER_05]: But
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought that I thought you had said from the episode you and Neil did that well she had a kid in the third season or maybe he was hinted at in the third season.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was telling me so he was recapping season two and three and by the very end I can't remember I have to listen to it again if he was saying that they do have a kid or he was saying it's hinted at because she has a kid in the comics.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so that is that is true.
[SPEAKER_05]: And in the comics, the I think it's Danielle is the name that we got in the show right for her daughter.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that is the name of her daughter in the comics that she has with Luke Cage.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Danielle Cage.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it does seem like they're.
[SPEAKER_05]: doing that?
[SPEAKER_05]: No, I don't know if we're supposed to get a mic culture or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it definitely, again, not, not to be crass here, but the child was also mixed race.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think they were, I don't think you choose that unless you're trying to be like, yeah, it was with Luke Cage.
[SPEAKER_01]: right so yeah so that's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'd have to again I didn't see those the third season and I haven't read those comics as to like does that become anything plot line wise like is that a key point or is it just hey she says you know she's a mom now which I thought I don't know if this is unique but they introduced this idea that she can lose her powers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I lost Spider-Man 3 because she's a mom like ever since
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, I said, Monica, I had to double take that punch on Powell for a second because I didn't know if, okay, let me, let me tell you two funny stories real quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: For a second, I thought that Powell just resisted the punch and then I thought for a second are they smuggling in like tombstone, you know what, remember that Spider-Man?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the video game there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a side mission of tombstone where he has like the gas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's those people basically invulnerable to punches and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I know Luke Cage, you know, his whole thing is that his skin is impenetrable.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for a second, I was like, wait a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they trying to hint at?
[SPEAKER_01]: like this is a connection to brand new day with tombstone because he's going to be in that movie and this is like they're not only just bringing in weapons they're also bringing in like chemical weapons and how has already used it and become like somewhat of a super soldier and not super soldier but like, you know, the impenetrable skin and then after all that thought process I went back and I think all it is is that she lost her power I guess for a punch but even that
[SPEAKER_01]: is weird because when Daredevil knocks him out, first of all, he hits him on the head, it makes a weird sound.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes a sound as if it's like metal on metal, as if I'm right about tombstone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go back and listen, it's like a big, when he hits him, which I just thought was interesting, I thought it would be more of like a thud.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh oh, I just figured it was like, the hit, the sponsor made some contact with his helmet or something as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that, that is what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying at first, I was like, oh, yeah, but then yeah, the second thing is I thought that, okay, when she said she lost her powers, I thought that meant like on a day to day basis.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that not like a minute to minute basis.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, I have strength.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have strength.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know that does create some real risks right in the moment, which is the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it adds some stakes, but right, she could be in serious
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, a couple of things.
[SPEAKER_05]: One, you obviously miss Spider-Man 2, not Spider-Man 3, as we've said before, there is no Spider-Man 3.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are just two Sam-Rammy Spider-Man movies and they're both really perfect.
[SPEAKER_05]: And those are the only ones, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: Thanks, Keith.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my bad.
[SPEAKER_05]: Second, it is like her having a daughter
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't, I'm sure I haven't read these comics if they exist.
[SPEAKER_05]: At some point, if it hasn't already happened, she is going to kind of be a young Avenger type hero in her own right, but Danielle, all the comics I've read, she's still staying as a baby and I think it's more interesting that way because it is more about the way it changes
[SPEAKER_05]: Jessica and Luke's relationship and their role as roles as superheroes and it kind of changes the way that Jessica wants to engage with the world and how much she wants to go and be out there on the front lines.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you see a lot of that with Luke too.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, and I think a lot of the
[SPEAKER_05]: this push to not it like he doesn't want to just be the strong guy superhero anymore.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think it is an important comic plot beat and that it changes both of those characters a lot for the better and I think add some good layers.
[SPEAKER_05]: I am always a fan of real life.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, and I always like when that can be enough when you don't have to then create something where like every baby doesn't have to be Franklin Richards.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do hope that they, yeah, I do hope that they do something more with that, but lastly, it's also in denial, by the way, that every, like this is the phasorin, every MC in legend is now having kids on screen, I mean, so we're clearly setting up kind of like the next generation of what it looks like for these characters to get old age out and then have, in some
[SPEAKER_05]: Which does make sense because I mean, I was in high school when I heard me and came out, you know, and now I have I have a baby and I'm like one of the last people in my yeah, don't make me yeah, you know, we're getting a group.
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, so I think the only I like I like the hiccup with her power is dropping out.
[SPEAKER_05]: There is a part of me though.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's comics, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And you just can't go down this road.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I was just trying to figure out the mechanics of that a little bit, like there's something about with Spider-Man, they call it mental and psychosomatic, and it's him not being able to shoot the webs.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think the idea is that it's still in there, he's just kind of wrestling with whether he really wants the powers.
[SPEAKER_05]: And maybe that's something that they're doing here, but it doesn't really feel like that's what they're exploring thematically as much.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I'm just thinking how physiologically what is happening that allows her to in one moment, like punch through steel, and then the next moment not.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just curious how her powers are supposed to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's as Stanley would sign it, the power cosmic, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, this is the, the power Jessica.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, just how it, it's how it happens, okay?
[SPEAKER_05]: there's like there's even a edit you're right and it's all sci-fi and whatever but there's something mentally to me that that would make it easier for me to imagine like loop cages power is dropping in and out like I can imagine something where like his skin now becomes like porous like if they inject him with something but I guess it's just already a strange thing where
[SPEAKER_05]: that don't have any kind of sign of being a super strong person, like the super soldiers in Falcon Winter Soldier, where you don't have them bulk up, and it's just like they look the exact same, but now they're crazy strong.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because of that, there's some times like a disconnect for me, where like
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, Steve Rogers is probably still stronger, obviously.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's still stronger than Chris Evans is bulked up like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So they're not saying that all of that just comes from the muscle, but at least makes it, or like with Fisk.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you can, even though he is doing things beyond what a person even that big would probably be able to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's still probably, like it, it, you know, connects the dots a little bit.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that that's one thing that,
[SPEAKER_05]: it was not that's not a what what didn't work.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was just a it's the the first time I've ever gone down the power level type like rabbit hole that you have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I've two thoughts on this because in the Jessica Jones episode, Neil pointed that out specifically that it always looks a little wonky, just because she's a very like thin framed, you know, whatever she's what five six small girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's hard to when she doesn't bulk up, you know, she all even gets away with it right because she gets huge and gets strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but like if yeah, if she punches somebody, it's a lot of her going like, uh, and then the guy going,
[SPEAKER_01]: when flying back and there's just something about that looks a little weird because it's like hard to believe you didn't see any change yet her appearance that being said
[SPEAKER_01]: They handled it so much better here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was looking for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like one thing they can do first of all is they gave her props.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, the Netflix show is a lot of her just punching people and it looks really weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go back and watch it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like guys, she goes like this and the guy goes like, oh, you know, like, you know, he does it himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I could be this stunt man there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, right away, she comes in and she grabs a box throws it at a guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then she grabs a giant like board and she's smack and people with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I thought it looked so much better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, then the Netflix show with her powers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the simultaneous kick and punch that that shot of both of the same time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I also just want to say this is the best action.
[SPEAKER_01]: Daredevil's ever had I and I need you not just because it's like not in not in like the writing of it all that stuff, but just how it actually looks Go back and watch please.
[SPEAKER_01]: I dare you right now even go watch right now the famous hall fight hall fight in season one
[SPEAKER_01]: If you watch it now, was it executed awesome?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, is it an awesome one or yes?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it cool to see Matt finally like engaging in this kind of activity?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not saying that, but punches are fake.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like punches are pulled.
[SPEAKER_01]: It clearly looks like set up and I still love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And um, there are times where I felt like in the showdown even in season three between Fisk and Daredevil, same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something like, uh, and then it's not really landing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like in general, this show has kind of cracked the code on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of ways to handle it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed when I was watching Agent Carter, I think I said this.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just always like shake the camera and pan it away.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you really never can tell.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, every time someone goes for a punch, it's like, we have budget to pull this off.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we just go, and then you can't tell what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remarkably, I actually think that the rules so is our incredible at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you go back and watch the whole way fight, somehow,
[SPEAKER_01]: the elevator fight somehow the punches all feel like they're actually hitting the actors there like yeah if like you feel the weight of it I'm not how they're doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do a lot of that's you know shaky steady cam like chasing somebody
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I just had shaky and steady, but the cam chasing somebody.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But however they pull it off, it looks really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I'm not sure this is on that level, but this is the best Daredevil action.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was my quick tangent to say shout out to the guy choreographing these fights and making them feel believable and that the punches are actually landing.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Netflix series.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't I guess season one.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if if they had the same choreographer every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's been the same guy every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, that's maybe where I was wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, oh, oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then Heather and Buck.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's a what doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really weird part of the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, last night on Discord, just tons of sexual jokes from our audience about, you know, Buck enjoying being choked out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: No comment, as someone just finished DTF St. Louis, no comment on this stuff, but then if it wasn't a sexual thing,
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a really weird way for her to process her trauma.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were trying to actually help her, was strange?
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole scene was strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess what didn't work?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still left growing up with what I want.
[SPEAKER_05]: I can't tell what they're doing with Heather.
[SPEAKER_05]: But they're definitely doing something.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because they're, I mean, they've stuck with it.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's been building towards something.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the takeaway from that?
[SPEAKER_01]: She was sad about Vanessa, she took the earring.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then I mean, part of processing her trauma, she read, does it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're setting up that she's gonna be a serial killer.
[SPEAKER_01]: a serial killer.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they're setting up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And apparently at some point Heather was muse in the comics or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do.
[SPEAKER_01]: That like she kept the mask.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's wrestling with it and it's eventually like that's why I thought at the beginning of the I didn't think sexual.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking like the choking was like, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, can you feel what it feels like to kill somebody again, and you'll become more and more numb to it, and then eventually you can do it easier, and I feel like that's the direction they're heading, but I could be so off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just trying to, like, I'm trying to think where that
[SPEAKER_05]: Where that would be in the comics maybe some comic thing It I'm sorry that well, it's it's hard because I Do think I do think I do think that there's like a little Yeah, there is another muse This is live research, by the way
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so and then I'm so I'm looking at it because I was thinking it must be this there was a There was a Daredevil series that ran I think last year Kind of around the time born against season one came out that featured a new muse That was a woman, but it wasn't the Daredevil is kind of a mini and it was focused on like Electra Daredevil not Daredevil Daredevil so I haven't I've read all of the issues of the actual main Daredevil comic
[SPEAKER_05]: But this is the one I haven't read and I do know what involves me is I don't know if Heather Glenn is the new muse there, but the fact that that was introduced and then now we have this going on, why would she keep the mask, just practically speaking, it's meaning, yeah, yeah, but then that's.
[SPEAKER_01]: just prepare yourself.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, maybe she maybe it's something it's like the reverse where she she like uses her roles at therapist to like get people and vulnerable positions and then.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, I will say that was one interesting thing about her mourning here in Vanessa's room is she was talking about, you know, if she was becoming a serial killer, I thought it was going to be a little more of like a, I don't know why I like this about myself or something, but instead when she had chance to double down, she was like really traumatized that she had to kill a patient.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe you're right, like it's maybe the other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, somehow like really just the regret of that and that doesn't maybe, maybe the end of that road is not her big muse, but
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot going on in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I took a note that everyone's kind of losing their mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is an episode where like it's coming to head for everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, fist to pressed, that's the only steady presence here.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Karen, we've never seen Karen like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like Karen's going ballistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's literally going to shoot bulls eye in the head.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like I think she was going to shoot him because Matt hit her gun out although and she so she says right away what the hell is wrong with you to Matt yeah and I'm like what is wrong with you girl but but you still had that moment where she's she's picturing foggy and you can't tell if she's going to shoot him because she's picturing foggy or if she's not going to shoot him because he wouldn't do that right.
[SPEAKER_01]: right, but he lost it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Charles is kind of getting to the end of his role.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about that in one second as my guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, uh, the obviously the BB and Daniel thing coming to ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the Heather scene was so strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking, man, everyone's becoming a psychopath.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and then Powell, just freaking murdering Saunders.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like
[SPEAKER_01]: feeling like that was like a line that he felt like he could cross now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's another one back, you know, at the end of that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and by the way, yeah, I think finally we're seeing how Cole North gets his turn.
[SPEAKER_05]: because I remember thinking, oh, the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why are they saying, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I, and I thought early on, like, okay, it seems like they're having this, like, Saunders, this other guy kind of play the cool noise role, and so then I wasn't sure if they were supposed to be working together or if there was some kind of other layer to it, but now I love that one line from him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Didn't you, that's, that's a good little hint.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I just refresh you know that not everyone is fully bought in a hundred percent to this right because he straight up saw Powell shoot him right yeah yeah so I I think man yeah I I'm glad to see that they and I knew that they did but like to see the long game with north pan out because I just always felt like it was going to be such a weird Call if they use that character without Using him for anything that the character actually represents
[SPEAKER_05]: But the other piece of that, which again is a what worked.
[SPEAKER_05]: Man, they have really made Powell just the most hateable guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: The worst.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, shooting sawters was dark.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the like the whole,
[SPEAKER_05]: It's almost like you haven't watched Game of Thrones, but there are a couple of Game of Thrones villains that are just famously like they really make you hate these guys for how sadistic and cruel they are, but they keep getting away with it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And yep.
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like we haven't actually had that many of those in the MCU, like we've had really good villains, but often it's the flip side of that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Often it's like you understand them so much.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like what we've talked about with like Thanos and Kilmonger and Vulture, like you don't.
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't hate Michael Keaton.
[SPEAKER_05]: You kind of understand him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so this is,
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a, it's a, it's a really great little mini villain that has paired like to the point where I hate him way more than I hate.
[SPEAKER_05]: Fisk in the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so do I.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's get into the last thing here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're thinking the same thing just following up after a quick word from these sponsors.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, by the way, this is a friend of mine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am rude!
[SPEAKER_00]: You saved the good stuff for special occasions?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, did I catch this right, Mr. Charles and his role here?
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a unique line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, Jessica is telling the story that he came to her or to some people quote, like them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I told him to f off.
[SPEAKER_01]: But not everybody like us did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said something to that nature, which makes me think, how does this affect the greater MCU?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well,
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there more there?
[SPEAKER_01]: So is he working with Val and is this a tie in a little bit to like what the Thunderbolts have going like century or like could they be referring to something like that or Maybe somebody even like Luke Cage or something joins him instead of
[SPEAKER_01]: telling him that off according to Jessica.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there more there?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's an interesting potential tie to and and is Mr. Charles who's so frustrated with fist now is he going to form his own kind of army of I guess like government funded like John Walker's of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think you're right, it has to be a reference to Val and what we find out she's been doing.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, even prior to century, the fact that she has recruited, yeah, John Walker years and ghost and you know, like just people with different levels of power sets.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like I never from the stuff that I saw it was essentially characters that we've seen show up in the Defenders universe So but she's aware of the big the big ones like she's a reference to Captain America in the Hulk Yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but in this world, the Avengers are celebrities all of them, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's not new.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, the way she says not everyone I know, and, you know, maybe she does know some of the characters that that are in Thunderbolts, I do wonder if that's a
[SPEAKER_05]: Either way, I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, are they together?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like are they married and living together?
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause if he does something like that, that's almost like he's an ex husband or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like a boyfriend that she doesn't see anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: A strange.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it doesn't.
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like it doesn't seem like they are.
[SPEAKER_05]: But maybe they just, I guess they've been silent on it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's Luke Cage.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I do think it's.
[SPEAKER_05]: And maybe that's all we get, but I think confirmation that Mr. Turtles is connected to Val beyond just the formal CIA stuff.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wonder in terms of where we're going next to kind of go back to your very first comment about life after Fisk.
[SPEAKER_05]: The, the, the, the, the, the Zedarsky run, the midpoint of that run is Devil's Rain.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that's not the conclusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so it actually kind of goes on beyond that and really like ramps up a lot afterwards.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's when it kind of becomes even more focused on Matt as leader and and like what that looks like you get a lot of stuff with like the hand at that point for better or worse and in terms of TV adaptations, but
[SPEAKER_01]: One piece seems like the hand is coming again, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, at least in Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I mean.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the, like one piece of that that we've talked about some here is the, like the powers that are above Fisk, where you realize in the comics that Fisk as mayor, he is not, like he still now has people that he has to answer to, kind of in a way that he never does as King Pen.
[SPEAKER_05]: and they've done a really good job in this season of showing that tension with him in Charles.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I do wonder if the more Charles gets frustrated.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like we have this kind of confrontation with Daredevil and Fisk and it looks like that's going to have to end one way or the other, like maybe Fisk does step away for a while or something.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there's going to have to be kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, sorry, do you think he's going to step down?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that's what we're heading?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the false information that Daniel was leaking?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that's what's actually going to happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because something's going to happen, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be there by the end.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, aren't they sort of setting up the governor kind of forcing his hand?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I thought back to, when we, you know, with the brand new day trailer, like seeing who I think, so he's going to get rid of his powers.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's at least what she's trying to do, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, now like they've got, they have this video out where they're saying that he's just been arresting random people.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you would think that at some point, like the governor already doesn't like him, even before that, she's already said that without the Nessa there, she doesn't trust him and office.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you would think that now she would.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what she's saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's encouraging other guy to kill her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you catch that line?
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is that a last ditch effort to be like, make sure this government gets out of here because she's anti my boss?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but then even if even if that pans out now, Charles has gone straight to her, you know, ostensibly to get rid of Fisk.
[SPEAKER_05]: So even if they get rid of the governor and replace him or replace her with the lieutenant governor,
[SPEAKER_05]: I still think Charles would probably have something in the works to try to, like there's gonna be some sort of power struggle.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I just wonder if it's gonna wind up with Daredevil actually taking on like the power is behind Fisk when this is all sudden done, which would be interesting because it would be kind of like we've never really seen him
[SPEAKER_05]: do that, like Fisk has kind of always been at the top of the food chain when it comes to Daredevil stuff, but it has to go somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: One question for our audience to think about this week, his name is Mr. Charles, but that's not actually his real name because
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, when we're introduced to him, Fisk has Fisk says, just call him Mr. Charles.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed on a call last night kept saying Charles and like you are now as if it's almost like his first name.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they're saying Mr. Charles.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Either way, could be his first name's last name, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there a comic book character?
[SPEAKER_01]: that he could be playing that they could reveal at the very end like maybe the next week like he's actually my name's not Mr. Charles it's
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Nick Fury, he's not in a career, but like something like that where Comic-Cant fans are like, oh, that makes sense, like, that's why they want to say his name.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know that, but just be thinking on that all week.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to look up right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was gonna pose it to our, to our.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, that's a really, that's a good question, though.
[SPEAKER_05]: I bet you're right, because I mean, it doesn't intentionally not reveal his name thus far.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they've, you know, they've kept him, like, we know very little about him.
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought at first that that scene that you're referring to with Jessica talking to Matt, I actually thought that there was an implication that Charles was himself somehow like a powered person, like on like a low key level.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I realized afterwards that's not what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're just saying that he's involved in what Val does.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think I think so too.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it would be fun, uh, I can't think of who he would be as a Daredevil character, but again, there's so many might not have to be a Daredevil character.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, because the thing he could be the glue to the next to Spider-Man or something else, the Thunderbolt and the Avengers.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's, that's one more thing I wanted to raise that was not on, uh,
[SPEAKER_05]: It didn't come out of this, although maybe it did a little bit with the connections to Val and the updates that we got that might allow the basically set the scene for brand new day.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was listening to the amazing spider talk guys reaction to the brand new day trailer.
[SPEAKER_05]: OK. And I Dan made a comment that I thought
[SPEAKER_05]: interesting and I'm curious how much like this is just purely his read versus like if there's evidence to back it up, but he is convinced that Daredevil shows up in brand new day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean I think I mean it's not like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I mean, I mean not like it would be impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because we like we know the Punisher is so that's there already making that kind of move from There's a huge online theory that the shot of Spider-Man going against the hand that Daredevil is edited out of the bottom of that shot Just like they did with the the three Spider-Man being edited out because
[SPEAKER_01]: We got the shot of like lizard kind of like moving in an unnatural way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because he was getting punched.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and that's not the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a theory and like we said on this podcast so many times it's coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're already working on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's already happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm with Dan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if like specifically he is in that movie, but I think that this is the endgame of all this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and they're working it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I, like I said, I think they've worked most of it out, but this show was filmed a year ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now they're kind of like, you're just getting to the edges that work.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're catching up.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I think.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I, I am happy regardless of what, all the connectivity that we're already getting just based on the trailer.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think is enough for me.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would be delighted if we actually get, I mean, again, we've had Daredevil in a spider
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of crazy on the inverse more than anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want Spider-Man on the show.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, which also seems like a bigger lift and really expensive for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: For sure, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll never happen, but yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I mean, it would also be, it would be such a, like, a boon to Daredevil season three to have a brand day appearance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guarantee you, Disney, we get a lot of subscribers.
[SPEAKER_05]: I, regardless, I am really happy even with just where we are now, like knowing what we do about brand new day, but also like this episode did a little bit more work, the kind of stuff that you and I have been looking for in so many projects post and game.
[SPEAKER_05]: they were more clearly connected.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then it felt like there were so many new opportunities that opened up after in-game.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it seems like you and I have been saying over and over again since like 2022, like there's an opportunity for a connection that was weirdly missed.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like there's one and there's one and there's one.
[SPEAKER_05]: And most recently, it has been, wow, yeah, it seems like what they're doing in born again should be kind of connecting on some level with what's going on in Thunderbolts.
[SPEAKER_05]: So seeing that happen here does feel like we're finally starting to, like, tie some things together that have needed to tie together for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get back home.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels comfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah, let's hear from a friend.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, hey, we know each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a friend from work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our friend, Yobel, why OBEL, Yobel?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Says, Hi Kyle, do you feel like the marketing push around Jessica Jones being an episode six was an intentional misdirection from the showrunners to throw the audience off of the events of the episode, or an effort to further tie the Netflix defenders
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, what did you think about our cameo?
[SPEAKER_01]: I love Jessica Jones and the whole Defender saga, but the character's role was so brief in this episode that I couldn't help but wonder what the intention was to bring her in this late in the season, especially right after Vanessa's death, unless they had bigger plans for her later in season two or three.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess season three, so she'll love the podcast, can't wait to hear the next episode, keep it the good work.
[SPEAKER_01]: My reaction to that question is,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, um, we talked about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the marketing has been a little bit off.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit weird to have or be a part of the marketing to have our only show up in episode six for 15 lines, you know, and a fight and a fight that kind of felt.
[SPEAKER_01]: a little bit peripheral like it was fun to see her and I love it but a little bit like it was kind of like hey here's Jessica she's going to beat up this warehouse and then leave like what was yeah they're now they're deviled not have done that by himself why this exact second didn't have to happen
[SPEAKER_01]: that's my first reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: My second reaction, though, is that I don't think she's gone yet, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she's going to be in the final two episodes because there was definitely some shots of her in the trailer, unless that's intentional misdirection that we're not in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, she's helping him up from the church?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, she says like, he's going to, can you walk or do I have to carry a home or whatever?
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... because i'm not carrying a home yet so i think there's more coming um... if there's not more coming then yet feels like that was a little bit peripheral my only other pushback to that would be but we did get the explanation of the mister trial stuff that we just talked about you maybe it is a hint at the the greater mcu connections i guess uh... but i think i did like singer yeah yeah i think that i have i think we're on the same page i i like
[SPEAKER_05]: I liked all the scenes with Jessica.
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought the introduction, like her house and hearing, like the fight happening kind of outside in the guys, like getting the windows and all that was a fun intro or re-intro.
[SPEAKER_05]: I do think that's an interesting point though.
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe this is the beginning of a build towards something and we need to have Jessica here for that, in which case, I think I'm totally fine with her coming in as kind of this transition episode of like a change in Fisk, the loss of Vanessa, and now we're sort of bringing in the component for the last arc.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like that feels right and natural.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like if it's something where this was the big Jessica appearance, and then maybe we only have kind of one other later one, it does feel kind of stitched on.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like it, it doesn't, like I'm not totally sure, yeah, what happened here that needed Jessica in a way she wasn't needed, like when they were breaking people out of the cells.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that, 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there has to be more, I think, otherwise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, okay, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the file, let's rank it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went first last week.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're turning to go first this week.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was mine's rice to watch it already?
[SPEAKER_04]: I know what, I'm going to give it to, I'll give it four out of five, I'll call it a score.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was raised by a photographer.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God, just kill me now.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: I, that's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think this is to be plus for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where I'm at, too, be plus.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was B-minus last week, yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think episode four for me is still an A-minus, just because, again, this is where the preference thing, Rob.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I talked about this on the rankings.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, just seeing Jack having a tie into Hawkeye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that fight was also really awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just the sauce to put into the minus category for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the only one I've given in a minus.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought this was really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like this as a pretty for me, significant jump over last week.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it'll be nice to be plus.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know that I go on the same, I didn't have the same feeling as my wife corn, like, but like Jack breaking people out and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So be plus.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think.
[SPEAKER_05]: it's close for me like that because if only because of that fisk fight at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the talking, I love the talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like that that scene was so great, but yeah, I think there's just something like that if I'm going by my own kind of emotional like visceral reaction to it, which is on some level, all I can do whenever I'm trying to assign this a grade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: I still think like the way I felt after episode four where I was like, this is, like, I'm jazzed.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I think this episode I came away being like, wow, that was really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was really good, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've gone B minus B.
[SPEAKER_01]: B plus A minus B minus B plus so like I know growth a little dip and then we're back and I've heard nothing but unbelievable things about the final two so yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be it'll be interesting when we're all said and done to look back at this because I do feel like this is going to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: one of the three best shows they've ever made.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I say that as someone who just finished Loki season one, then I'm watching Quantumania and now I'm about to start Loki season two, my recollection of Loki season two is that it's an A, like it's a top tier thing that they've made.
[SPEAKER_01]: That remains to be seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to rewatch it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't ever rewatched it, so we'll see.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I rewatched Lucky Season 1.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think clearly Loki Season 1 is not in that category.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love Loki Season 1.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the first episode of Loki Season 1 and the sixth episode of Loki Season 1 are absolutely special.
[SPEAKER_01]: The three in the middle are kind of just like, okay, episodes of television.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wouldn't say that about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my point is, dare to have all I think is better.
[SPEAKER_01]: than Loki's season one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you're in the conversation for me of one division and we'll see Loki's season two.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think it'll be, I mean, it would be great if we never have to, if we never have to do this, but I think in some ways is the hard show for us to introduce a grading scale on because
[SPEAKER_05]: I just think every episode has been so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like local season one, if we had the grading system, I probably would have given out some lower grades.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think it will be interesting to see if we have to do that with other shows, but right now, I mean, it's a good problem to have, but I think that's, again, that's what the preference thing comes in the play because I think that this show has been more consistent and the end of episode four of this show got really close, but the science fiction talk,
[SPEAKER_01]: in the Loki finale is just always gonna be more my preference.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an A to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I could watch it for an hour where they're just talking and Loki's having a process, what he's hearing.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the Hiddleston, Jonathan majors.
[SPEAKER_01]: But because it's also just like so out there they're talking about like meta physical stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's more my scene where is this going time travel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like that's a true A.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I'm saying like A minus, I guess for episode four,
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we got to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to watch the Punisher Special Presentation trailer and then record a friend's homework plus episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you want to hear our reaction to that, go check out friends from work plus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rob, anything else in life as we close here?
[SPEAKER_01]: how should I wrap us up?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's new?
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you the know about?
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I think there's just a lot of, a lot of, uh, doomsday buzz these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: The, the cinnamon con fallout has been magnificent to witness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, they're going to be a haulage, uh, at SDCC again, which is fun and probably going to generate some more buzz.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the end game re release is
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we'll definitely be covering.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you and I probably go to it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, I mean, there's apparently it's going to now have new footage that ties in to do state.
[SPEAKER_05]: Did you see it?
[SPEAKER_01]: But apparently only after the credits, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they're like changing the movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's post-cred scene because endgame didn't have one.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, this is, here's, here's, here's the reality, here's the reality, here's the reality, it's been, I said this last week, it's been so long since I felt the way I did pre Avengers Endgame because that was literally seven years ago and like as far as
[SPEAKER_01]: I love all of the MCU, but counting the experiences that I'll never forget, some of the most foundational movie experiences in my life include like the Infinity War thing and proud civil war towards the end, the first time I saw Iron Man and the end game.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, in theory, I've been excited about Doom's Day, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I say that because I'm excited about an Avengers movie and what it could mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: something I shifted in me this last week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I saw, Robbie, I saw just the 10 second, the last 10 seconds of the trailer, which is just the doomsday logo with Alan Sylvester's music.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna send it to you full blown, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: My point is, I am now not just like theoretically excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm certain to feel what I felt like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like seeing Robert Dungeon, your Chris Evans on stage, hearing that song, then the reaction to it, like every outlet being like, it brought the house down to like everybody was like, oh,
[SPEAKER_01]: This even like non-marval people are like, oh, but they're still king.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is why.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because like here's all of our trailers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look how fun this is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Toy Story Five, Tom Anxon, you know, they're all here and it's so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the real big boys are coming up right here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's that's Marvel.
[SPEAKER_01]: That feeling I have children right now is growing in me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it hasn't in like seven or eight years.
[SPEAKER_01]: the music rally.
[SPEAKER_01]: He changes the second to last chord.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we always talk about so it's and then this chord is like a minor chord.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like it's really dark.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to send it to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I heard that chord, I was like, this is what I've always talked about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a bigger version of it, a little more scinty.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then this dark minor chord over the last part of the melody that and then just says, Doom is coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom, boom, boom, with the music.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, holy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_05]: I can't wait to see that trailer.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I have avoided the.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the description either.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've avoided that stuff just because I, it sounds like such a fun thing to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you hear the music, you're going to lose your mind because as a musician, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Holy crap.
[SPEAKER_04]: We, uh, man, we've, we've got, we've got to get Sylvester on the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's got to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't really offered it that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to make that happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, anyways, that's a long tangent to say, do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's a real juist now for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Real.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, agreed.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think a lot of like, I think that that's, that's going to show up for a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think people have forgotten how fun that is, like I've said before, as, like, there have been some great great movies over the last six years, seven years.
[SPEAKER_05]: We had a big event like this, like a big installment of a series, like we have had moments, but nothing like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's what's so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: CinemaCon, Ravi, is for movie theater people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you know this?
[SPEAKER_01]: CinemaCon is not fans.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not this is not Comic-Con.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like people who run movie theaters Basically go and hear the presentations of like here's what you can expect for your movie there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my point is these are not people who are predisposed to having to like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you understand what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, and like as they lost their mind so much that they said, yeah, play the trailer again.
[SPEAKER_01]: They like demanded a second viewing of it right then and there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are, so my point is, I think what happened was you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people, even casuals have forgotten how fun it is like that you literally had a movie that was making people stand up in a plot or cheer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like people would cheer when meal
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think even the the most casual or like even the Marvel hater has to admit like that is fun when theaters are totally full and we all are going through this shared moment together And I think as trailers are a reminder of like yeah, like this is why it is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good for everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to cry.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm so happy.
[SPEAKER_05]: these narratives evolved so quickly.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think people now look back at 2018 as this, like, oh, you know, everyone loved Marvel and it could do no wrong when Infinity War came out.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I, you know, part of that, I think is Black Panther doing what it did and obviously the
[SPEAKER_05]: going and seeing infinity war and being so excited about it and still feeling like a lot of people were like, oh, like the Avengers movie, you know, like Marvel, like this sort of like, uh, and then end game happened.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it was such a big deal that it now kind of recolored all of it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And now all of these non nerds in my life suddenly cared and wanted to rewatch and and listen to our podcast and then it was the big thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: But my point is it took the right moment like what you're talking about to transform either like casual fans or like not even fans into people that suddenly got it and cared about it so much so that they were willing to go back and watch 18 movies or whatever.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and so I think that there's this idea that like, oh, they've got a real uphill battle to win back all this trust.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm just not sure that that's as much the case as people make it out to be because I just they make it seem as though like in game was inevitable like it was just gonna be a huge hit.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that they just kind of like, it was a softball or something.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the whole reason this podcast exists is because we felt like it was such an achievement to land the plan the way that they did.
[SPEAKER_05]: But that's why I've always felt that
[SPEAKER_05]: Like as much as I think that yeah, you should get new voices involved and new creators and do interesting things like we're getting with Thunderbolts now kind of leading to a team to make X man like I think that's great and and we need that moving forward, but there is just you cannot deny
[SPEAKER_05]: the unique abilities that the Rusos have when it comes to these big team-up event movies like they can do something and balance stuff in a way that I've just never seen other filmmakers nail.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think to get those folks back together and these actors that get it and love it
[SPEAKER_05]: they know how to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we know how to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next week here on Friends From Work.