WEBVTT 00:05.836 --> 00:08.264 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 00:09.147 --> 00:14.867 [SPEAKER_00]: The show that explores the background of tokens amazing world from the very beginning. 00:23.960 --> 00:27.685 [SPEAKER_01]: It really is interesting to me, the more I study J.R.R. 00:27.745 --> 00:43.686 [SPEAKER_01]: Tolkien and the common perceptions people have of his writings and his world and how everything works, how distinctly different and sometimes incorrect the common perceptions are. 00:43.987 --> 00:48.012 [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe a better way to say that is how often the take away. 00:48.032 --> 00:50.355 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the things people take away from 00:50.335 --> 00:57.743 [SPEAKER_01]: a first read or general perception of, say, the Lord of the Rings books is incorrect. 00:58.224 --> 01:01.347 [SPEAKER_01]: The assumptions they walk around with, I guess you could say. 01:02.088 --> 01:05.672 [SPEAKER_01]: And this isn't me being, you know, putting on my glasses and being well actually. 01:06.132 --> 01:09.736 [SPEAKER_01]: This is me being one of those people who had those same misconceptions. 01:09.897 --> 01:20.308 [SPEAKER_01]: And somehow they, I don't know if it's a social construct that we all just walk around with and we hear somebody else say, and we go, yeah, that sounds right. 01:20.288 --> 01:28.102 [SPEAKER_01]: or if we all just walk away from the writings for the first time with misunderstandings because of assumptions that we make in our own minds. 01:28.382 --> 01:29.163 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's an example. 01:29.845 --> 01:31.608 [SPEAKER_01]: And we talk about magic all the time. 01:31.668 --> 01:40.423 [SPEAKER_01]: So much of what we perceive of magic in fantasy comes from these works. 01:40.403 --> 02:04.403 [SPEAKER_01]: And the works that were directly inspired by these works, things like Dungeons and Dragons, the use of magic and Dungeons and Dragons is actually more influential in our modern day understanding of the way magic works in fantasy, which now is in all sorts of things, like other types of literature and video games and movies and that kind of stuff. 02:04.383 --> 02:12.573 [SPEAKER_01]: But when we go back, like we've discussed so many times, and actually look at the way magic is used in these books, it's not like that at all. 02:13.374 --> 02:17.379 [SPEAKER_01]: Gandalf doesn't just summon fireballs from nothing and toss them at his enemies. 02:17.879 --> 02:23.326 [SPEAKER_01]: He wills reality to bend to his influence, but he only has so much control over it. 02:23.586 --> 02:26.530 [SPEAKER_01]: Similarly, Sao Ron does the same thing. 02:26.590 --> 02:29.774 [SPEAKER_01]: He bends his will towards a goal. 02:29.934 --> 02:32.297 [SPEAKER_01]: He wills things into 02:32.277 --> 02:41.247 [SPEAKER_01]: Not exactly existence, but to become more accurate, to become more true than they previously were. 02:41.308 --> 02:47.535 [SPEAKER_01]: He wants the ring to return to him, so he bends his will in order to get the ring to return to him. 02:47.895 --> 02:52.080 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes through actual physical actions, like sending his minions out to go find it. 02:52.441 --> 02:57.947 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, just from the sense of forcing his will into the world, 02:57.927 --> 03:14.738 [SPEAKER_01]: To will it into existence and existence is still not the right word there, but you get where I'm going We're going to discuss some of that in today's episode, but there are other details that people walk around with this idea that Tolkien describes trees for three 03:14.718 --> 03:24.401 [SPEAKER_01]: pages of a book and then finally gets back to the details and I've made jokes about that as well, but it isn't as accurate as we would assume. 03:24.421 --> 03:26.947 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not as bad as people make it out to be. 03:27.007 --> 03:33.182 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it's actually very limited the amount of times he spends describing the environment. 03:33.162 --> 03:38.150 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're one of the Patrons, I will be addressing that in our bonus episode this week, so I'll go more into detail there. 03:38.591 --> 03:45.963 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's one other thing I want to point out, and it has to do with the very beginning of the section that we're discussing this week. 03:45.983 --> 03:52.553 [SPEAKER_01]: And it has to do with pity and staying your hand in the facts that Bilbo did not kill gallum. 03:53.014 --> 03:55.558 [SPEAKER_01]: And it has to do with violence, 03:55.538 --> 03:57.722 [SPEAKER_01]: and warfare and all of that. 03:58.183 --> 04:01.470 [SPEAKER_01]: And this seems to be another one of those things that people walk around with. 04:01.870 --> 04:10.027 [SPEAKER_01]: This idea that this is a medieval fantasy and in a medieval setting people are more barbaric and violent. 04:10.387 --> 04:11.670 [SPEAKER_01]: And sure, there's a lot of violence. 04:11.770 --> 04:13.974 [SPEAKER_01]: Even in the Hobbit, there's a lot of violence. 04:14.175 --> 04:17.361 [SPEAKER_01]: But most of the time, the violence is 04:17.341 --> 04:33.088 [SPEAKER_01]: either perpetuated by dark and terrible evil people or in defense of the protagonist, a for example, a Bilbo fighting off the spiders or something like that against creatures that are 04:33.068 --> 04:35.491 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not exactly other people. 04:35.731 --> 04:37.232 [SPEAKER_01]: They're more animal than they are. 04:37.312 --> 04:41.657 [SPEAKER_01]: Person, although they do seem to have internal monologues and awareness of themselves. 04:42.097 --> 04:45.921 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would argue that the violence is not gratuitous. 04:46.142 --> 04:58.114 [SPEAKER_01]: The violence especially when it comes to the peoples of Middle Earth, the men and the elves and the dwarves, is a last-ditch effort to save themselves. 04:58.094 --> 05:06.688 [SPEAKER_01]: How many times do we actually see a hero go out of their way to attack anyone, rather than defend themselves? 05:07.009 --> 05:18.027 [SPEAKER_01]: The choice of violence to the civilized peoples of this world is a last choice, and most of the people of Middle Earth will have never killed anyone ever. 05:18.007 --> 05:25.337 [SPEAKER_01]: Many of them are farmers and may have killed livestock in order to feed themselves their families in their communities, but that's not the same thing. 05:25.577 --> 05:29.883 [SPEAKER_01]: So when we look at the question of, well, why didn't Bilbo just kill Gallum? 05:30.003 --> 05:40.437 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, Gallum seems like a monster, but Bilbo just interacted with him in a way where, yes, he was afraid for his life, this thing seemed like it wanted to eat him. 05:40.417 --> 05:49.729 [SPEAKER_01]: But he also recognized something very similar inside this creature, the remnants of another person very much like himself. 05:50.610 --> 05:56.137 [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody who could actually do riddles and had similar memories in a similar cultural heritage. 05:56.397 --> 06:04.187 [SPEAKER_01]: So keep that in mind when we discuss this because the question of why didn't he kill Gaulim really isn't a question. 06:04.848 --> 06:06.390 [SPEAKER_01]: Question is more like... 06:06.370 --> 06:09.576 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you have been able to take somebody else's life? 06:10.157 --> 06:11.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Defend yourself, yes. 06:11.941 --> 06:19.937 [SPEAKER_01]: But actually, murder and cold blood while sneaking up invisibly behind him, most of us wouldn't have been able to do that. 06:20.257 --> 06:22.742 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, genuinely consider it. 06:22.722 --> 06:24.625 [SPEAKER_01]: would you have been able to do that? 06:24.805 --> 06:32.695 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's so easy to think about something abstract and it not actually happening right now, not actually being in the real situation. 06:33.516 --> 06:39.504 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you were really there and that the doorway was ahead of you, you were invisible. 06:40.025 --> 06:42.148 [SPEAKER_01]: You knew you could jump over him. 06:42.128 --> 06:48.876 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you have killed Golem or would you simply have avoided him and run away? 06:49.497 --> 06:54.804 [SPEAKER_01]: Time and time again, the people Tolkien writes about, make very human decisions. 06:55.525 --> 07:00.811 [SPEAKER_01]: And the world isn't some generic medieval fantasy where people are more barbaric. 07:01.252 --> 07:05.657 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, if you study history, yes, there are terrible things that happen historically. 07:06.038 --> 07:11.224 [SPEAKER_01]: Kings get assassinated in murder, and sure there's all sorts of court intrigue. 07:11.204 --> 07:23.238 [SPEAKER_01]: But the average person, their life was not that different than it is today, in regard to personal safety and willing to do violence, people are people, and Tolkien understands that. 07:23.578 --> 07:34.731 [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll get into a few more of these things in more detail in this episode, but keep those in mind. 07:42.524 --> 07:44.567 [SPEAKER_01]: a heavy silence fell in the room. 07:44.607 --> 07:47.110 [SPEAKER_01]: Frodo could hear his heart beating. 07:47.571 --> 07:49.714 [SPEAKER_01]: Even outside, everything seems still. 07:50.254 --> 07:53.138 [SPEAKER_01]: No sound of Sam's shears could now be heard. 07:53.178 --> 07:56.823 [SPEAKER_01]: Now we know why the sound of Sam's shears has gone away. 07:56.883 --> 07:58.185 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not because he's left. 07:58.265 --> 07:59.967 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not because he's finished gardening. 08:00.007 --> 08:07.958 [SPEAKER_01]: It's because he's deeply interested in what is going on and he's been spying on them, but we're not going to quite get to that part yet. 08:08.782 --> 08:10.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Gandalf says, yes, to Mordor. 08:11.066 --> 08:18.380 [SPEAKER_01]: Alas, Mordor draws all wicked things, and the dark power was bending all its will to gather them there. 08:18.961 --> 08:22.528 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is one of those details I kind of hinted at in the intro. 08:23.209 --> 08:24.291 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let me read that again. 08:24.712 --> 08:27.617 [SPEAKER_01]: Mordor draws all wicked things. 08:27.597 --> 08:48.846 [SPEAKER_01]: Mordor didn't create all the wicked things, the wicked things are now in the world and have been for a very long time, and are continued to be corrupted by Sauron's will, the evil peoples of parts of this world, or orcs, or other terrible things, ring-raiths, things like that. 08:48.826 --> 08:55.833 [SPEAKER_01]: And sure, I'm sure he's putting out a call among the groups of Orcs or whoever to gather to him. 08:56.354 --> 09:02.259 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's physically a message going out, but this wouldn't have been written this way. 09:02.340 --> 09:18.816 [SPEAKER_01]: If it wasn't also him simply using his force of will as if he's casting a spell, but still not 09:18.796 --> 09:24.537 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is going to play into another dark and evil thing, gallum that gets drawn towards him. 09:25.175 --> 09:29.301 [SPEAKER_01]: The ring of the enemy would leave its mark too, leave him open to the summons. 09:29.942 --> 09:35.511 [SPEAKER_01]: So Gandalf right here specifically says that Gallum would feel the summons. 09:35.611 --> 09:43.283 [SPEAKER_01]: He would feel that magnetic attraction to head to Mordor because of the mark of the ring. 09:43.624 --> 09:52.077 [SPEAKER_01]: This also implies that Gallum himself, although he did something terrible in order to get the ring he murdered his friend, was also not 09:52.057 --> 09:54.019 [SPEAKER_01]: fundamentally flawed. 09:54.520 --> 09:57.043 [SPEAKER_01]: He was a person who was corrupted. 09:57.103 --> 10:05.453 [SPEAKER_01]: He was a person who had maybe some dark tendencies, but was not evil until the ring made him that way. 10:05.734 --> 10:14.925 [SPEAKER_01]: And while this is going to be another one of those episodes where I almost have to quote every single sentence because there's something detailed in every single one, but that's just the way these books are. 10:14.905 --> 10:26.084 [SPEAKER_01]: Next sentence, and all folk were whispering then of the new shadow in the south, capitalized shadow in the south, the force, the power in the south, the evil power. 10:26.565 --> 10:28.788 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's hatred of the West. 10:29.329 --> 10:30.391 [SPEAKER_01]: What is the West here? 10:30.852 --> 10:37.723 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the West isn't just Gondor or Rohan or Hobbits or the Elves. 10:38.505 --> 10:41.149 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the West capitalized. 10:41.129 --> 10:43.713 [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron hates the Valar. 10:44.014 --> 10:50.263 [SPEAKER_01]: He hates the fact that he was summoned back in order to repent for his evil deeds. 10:50.684 --> 10:52.567 [SPEAKER_01]: And why would they have the controller over that? 10:52.607 --> 10:53.829 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would they have the power? 10:53.929 --> 10:58.176 [SPEAKER_01]: Who gave them the right to make those rules and those decisions? 10:58.156 --> 11:11.218 [SPEAKER_01]: And everyone who is connected with the West, the remnants of the West, the Elves, and the new Minorians who became the Gondorians, all of that, that is who Sauron hates. 11:11.499 --> 11:18.831 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the next sentence, Gandalf says, and this is about Gollum's perspective, there were his fine new friends who would help him in his revenge. 11:19.071 --> 11:23.539 [SPEAKER_01]: Gollum's a revenge of Bilbo, Baggins, who stole his precious. 11:23.519 --> 11:40.870 [SPEAKER_01]: And we might look at this and go, well, why would Sauron ally himself with Gollum in order to help him get revenge, but I think this shows how much Gollum was both under the influence of Sauron's summoning, but also naive. 11:40.850 --> 11:46.220 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he'd lived hundreds of years, but he didn't really know who Sauron was. 11:46.581 --> 11:49.246 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't really know what's going on in this world. 11:49.867 --> 11:59.685 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Gandalf, in the very next paragraph, next sentence says, 11:59.665 --> 12:02.027 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he would no longer be naive. 12:02.187 --> 12:12.718 [SPEAKER_01]: He would learn that there is a more powerful enemy out there, and that enemy is the enemy of everyone, including those who work for him. 12:12.998 --> 12:15.720 [SPEAKER_01]: He cares only for himself and his own goals. 12:16.001 --> 12:28.693 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, off points out that column would lurk around and try to figure out how to get into Mordor or spy on them, but eventually he would be caught and taken 12:28.673 --> 12:30.115 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of course he would. 12:30.576 --> 12:32.239 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's a sneaky guy. 12:32.279 --> 12:37.627 [SPEAKER_01]: He's real good at not being seen, but that doesn't mean that eventually they would find him. 12:37.868 --> 12:42.836 [SPEAKER_01]: And he confirms that this is exactly what happens and yet now he's been released. 12:43.697 --> 12:47.663 [SPEAKER_01]: On some errand of mischief, but that does not matter much now. 12:47.864 --> 12:50.648 [SPEAKER_01]: His worst mischief was done. 12:50.628 --> 12:51.670 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is interesting. 12:52.111 --> 12:54.034 [SPEAKER_01]: What was his worst mischief? 12:54.394 --> 12:57.320 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, Gollum isn't the problem here. 12:57.860 --> 13:01.587 [SPEAKER_01]: The information he has getting to Sauron is the problem. 13:02.068 --> 13:13.868 [SPEAKER_01]: And once Sauron has captured Gollum and tortured him and gotten any amount of information out of him, then Sauron now knows more than he knew before, even if that wasn't Gollum's intent. 13:13.848 --> 13:17.956 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tolkien writes it in this next paragraph so very clearly. 13:17.996 --> 13:19.239 [SPEAKER_01]: He spells it all out. 13:19.680 --> 13:24.670 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Alas, through him the enemy has learned that the one has been found again. 13:24.690 --> 13:27.135 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows where Isildir fell. 13:27.676 --> 13:30.121 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows where Golem found the ring. 13:30.161 --> 13:34.911 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that it is a great ring for it gave along life. 13:34.891 --> 13:40.422 [SPEAKER_01]: Now notice how so far, and I'll continue reading the rest of this, he's piecing it all together. 13:40.903 --> 13:50.301 [SPEAKER_01]: He has all of these little clues, these little hints, and by stringing them all together, like on a, I don't know, a big board, like a Charlie Day. 13:50.281 --> 13:56.531 [SPEAKER_01]: He's able to piece together what is actually happening here because it removes all doubt. 13:56.792 --> 14:01.480 [SPEAKER_01]: All of these things could not have existed at the same time without it being the one ring. 14:02.121 --> 14:08.351 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that it is not one of the three for they have never been lost and they endure no evil. 14:08.952 --> 14:12.458 [SPEAKER_01]: They wouldn't have been able to do what this ring did. 14:12.438 --> 14:17.504 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that it is not one of the seven or the nine for they are accounted for. 14:17.544 --> 14:20.728 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, he has all nine. 14:21.089 --> 14:28.297 [SPEAKER_01]: Those were the rings he used to corrupt the human lords and magicians and whatever into the ring rates. 14:28.918 --> 14:31.842 [SPEAKER_01]: And he knows what happened to all the seven. 14:31.962 --> 14:38.530 [SPEAKER_01]: Either he used them to corrupt the dwarves and got them back or they were lost. 14:38.510 --> 14:42.480 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody else knows exactly where all of those are, but Sauron does. 14:42.861 --> 14:48.355 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows it is the one and he has that last herd, I think, of Hobbits and the Shire. 14:49.037 --> 14:53.548 [SPEAKER_01]: So not only does he know that the thing that will give him 14:53.528 --> 14:55.592 [SPEAKER_01]: 100% chance at victory. 14:56.052 --> 15:02.343 [SPEAKER_01]: The thing that will bring middle-earth to its knees exists still. 15:02.684 --> 15:04.647 [SPEAKER_01]: And here's something I don't think about too often. 15:04.928 --> 15:09.896 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that he created the ring by depositing parts of himself into it. 15:10.257 --> 15:13.883 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, getting the ring back would give him even more power. 15:14.251 --> 15:18.835 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, it would be like recombining parts of his soul. 15:19.476 --> 15:29.225 [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't get talked about very often, and I'm not sure that's really a thing that Tolkien thinks about very much, but it makes me wonder, does he feel broken? 15:29.485 --> 15:30.926 [SPEAKER_01]: Does he feel divided? 15:31.447 --> 15:34.149 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's a piece of him missing, probably. 15:34.690 --> 15:43.498 [SPEAKER_01]: But more importantly, for Frodo's concern, he knows about the hobbits, he knows about the shire, and he knows about baggins. 15:43.478 --> 15:44.801 [SPEAKER_01]: Very next paragraph. 15:44.941 --> 15:52.295 [SPEAKER_01]: The next paragraph, Gandalf explains that he is, in fact, seeking for the Shire now and may have already found it. 15:52.375 --> 15:54.299 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that may sound a little bit weird. 15:54.359 --> 15:56.122 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would he not know where the Shire is? 15:56.182 --> 15:57.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't he have a map? 15:57.865 --> 16:01.352 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, this part of history, this time in the world, 16:01.332 --> 16:03.295 [SPEAKER_01]: Maps weren't complete. 16:03.355 --> 16:08.344 [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't have every single people group every single settlement that people were at on them. 16:08.725 --> 16:17.299 [SPEAKER_01]: They had major locations and the maps were designed by people from different locations with the places that they deemed important enough to put on the map. 16:17.279 --> 16:21.425 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, the Shire doesn't really go out into the greater world. 16:22.066 --> 16:31.219 [SPEAKER_01]: The Shire trades with other people who then trade with other people, and there is a network there, but also a lot of those people don't need maps. 16:31.379 --> 16:34.984 [SPEAKER_01]: They just follow the road from one town to the next and they go where they're going to go. 16:35.505 --> 16:40.872 [SPEAKER_01]: So, this isn't like there's a Google map you can just look up and be like, oh, there's Shire's over here. 16:40.953 --> 16:42.194 [SPEAKER_01]: I just searched for the word. 16:42.715 --> 16:44.097 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it doesn't work that way. 16:44.077 --> 16:52.611 [SPEAKER_01]: Now at this point, Frenno who's been worried, but generally containing himself, I think he finally finally clicks. 16:52.631 --> 16:54.233 [SPEAKER_01]: He finally starts to lose it. 16:54.414 --> 16:56.577 [SPEAKER_01]: And this goes right into what we were talking about before. 16:56.637 --> 17:02.607 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, but this is terrible, far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. 17:02.727 --> 17:05.371 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? 17:05.752 --> 17:07.755 [SPEAKER_01]: For now, I'm really afraid. 17:07.735 --> 17:08.577 [SPEAKER_01]: What am I to do? 17:08.637 --> 17:13.909 [SPEAKER_01]: What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature when he had a chance. 17:14.710 --> 17:23.730 [SPEAKER_01]: And notice the kind of emotional situation that he's in here when he suggests that Bilbo had stabbed that vile creature. 17:24.191 --> 17:25.474 [SPEAKER_01]: He is panicking. 17:25.454 --> 17:38.798 [SPEAKER_01]: and he was wishing that Bilbo had done the thing that would rid him of the problem that he now is in, but he also is seeing golem as a vile creature as a monster, not as a person. 17:39.058 --> 17:41.903 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where we get the pity speech from Gandalf. 17:42.324 --> 17:42.625 [SPEAKER_01]: Pity. 17:43.085 --> 17:44.668 [SPEAKER_01]: It was pity that state is hand. 17:45.029 --> 17:49.116 [SPEAKER_01]: Pity and mercy not to strike without need. 17:49.096 --> 18:01.495 [SPEAKER_01]: and he has been well-rewarded Frodo, be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil and escaped in the end because he began his ownership of the ring so with pity. 18:02.377 --> 18:05.181 [SPEAKER_01]: Now this is interesting. 18:05.448 --> 18:07.070 [SPEAKER_01]: There are a few different layers here. 18:07.231 --> 18:11.838 [SPEAKER_01]: First and foremost, he had no need to kill Gullum. 18:12.198 --> 18:14.722 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no need to defend himself. 18:15.383 --> 18:21.893 [SPEAKER_01]: And on top of it, he saw the creature and he saw the tortured individual inside. 18:22.314 --> 18:25.238 [SPEAKER_01]: He pitted him and he had mercy for him. 18:25.819 --> 18:28.924 [SPEAKER_01]: Now remember, Tolkien was a Catholic. 18:28.904 --> 18:36.298 [SPEAKER_01]: Mercy is a very important word, it's a very important concept to him in his world view. 18:36.859 --> 18:47.098 [SPEAKER_01]: Mercy is something that comes from God, and it's something that when humans display mercy, that they are imitating the divine. 18:47.078 --> 18:53.954 [SPEAKER_01]: that is one of the most good with the capital G things a human being can do is to show mercy. 18:54.255 --> 19:00.009 [SPEAKER_01]: So by being merciful, he was in Tolkien's mind, being like God. 19:00.089 --> 19:03.838 [SPEAKER_01]: He was living like God in this world. 19:03.818 --> 19:17.333 [SPEAKER_01]: and by firmly placing himself in such divine inspired kinds of actions and perspectives, the evil of the ring could not take root as firmly. 19:17.413 --> 19:27.625 [SPEAKER_01]: This is Gandalf's justification without actually saying it for why Bilbo was able to give up the ring and nobody else would have been able to do so. 19:27.985 --> 19:30.568 [SPEAKER_01]: It says if Bilbo is a saint, 19:30.548 --> 19:42.326 [SPEAKER_01]: He is doing and being good in a very real sort of way in a way in which even the evil of the ring had a hard time penetrating. 19:42.606 --> 19:45.951 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope I'm describing that clearly because it is kind of an odd concept. 19:46.432 --> 19:49.837 [SPEAKER_01]: So Frodo understands he kind of stepped too far. 19:49.857 --> 19:54.885 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, I'm sorry, I was frightened, but I do not feel any pity for gallum. 19:55.321 --> 19:57.726 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Gandalf explains why that is. 19:58.027 --> 19:59.630 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, you have not seen him. 19:59.690 --> 20:03.538 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Fredo response will know, I don't want to. 20:03.579 --> 20:06.866 [SPEAKER_01]: And flat out says, I can't understand you. 20:07.086 --> 20:08.108 [SPEAKER_01]: He's being honest here. 20:08.349 --> 20:10.393 [SPEAKER_01]: He is not of, 20:10.373 --> 20:11.174 [SPEAKER_01]: the perspective. 20:11.194 --> 20:14.580 [SPEAKER_01]: He's not in the situation in order to understand what is actually going on. 20:15.021 --> 20:20.149 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, he's not sure why they would decide to let go of him live. 20:20.189 --> 20:26.820 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, do you mean to say that you and the elves have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? 20:27.361 --> 20:30.766 [SPEAKER_01]: Now at any rate, he is as bad as in the work or just an enemy. 20:30.846 --> 20:32.449 [SPEAKER_01]: He deserves death. 20:32.429 --> 20:39.918 [SPEAKER_01]: Frodo is trying to justify that they have the wrong perspective, that mercy on Golum is the wrong thing to do. 20:39.978 --> 20:40.999 [SPEAKER_01]: He's dangerous. 20:41.039 --> 20:43.762 [SPEAKER_01]: He's thinking from a self-defense of standpoint. 20:44.002 --> 20:54.654 [SPEAKER_01]: He's also assuming that Gandalf or the elves being that they are wise and great would have the authority to choose the life or death of another individual. 20:54.955 --> 20:57.237 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's not assuming this because he's evil. 20:57.478 --> 20:58.639 [SPEAKER_01]: Frodo's not evil. 20:58.619 --> 21:09.810 [SPEAKER_01]: He's naive, much like gallumb was about Sauron, he doesn't fully understand the morality of the things he's discussing here, because he's never been tested yet. 21:10.432 --> 21:12.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Gandalf responds, deserve it. 21:12.234 --> 21:13.635 [SPEAKER_01]: I dare say he does. 21:14.056 --> 21:18.220 [SPEAKER_01]: Many that live deserved death and some that die deserve life. 21:18.481 --> 21:22.205 [SPEAKER_01]: So Gandalf's like, it's not a matter of if somebody deserves it. 21:22.225 --> 21:28.892 [SPEAKER_01]: If they did something bad and therefore deserve some sort of punishment because they're being bad, that's not the point. 21:29.853 --> 21:32.636 [SPEAKER_01]: His next line is, can you give it to them? 21:33.077 --> 21:38.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, do you or 21:39.220 --> 21:46.756 [SPEAKER_01]: Follow through with that, you might be a hundred percent sure that death is the thing that that individual deserves. 21:47.798 --> 21:52.268 [SPEAKER_01]: What gives you the right to take someone's life is basically what he's saying here. 21:52.670 --> 21:56.154 [SPEAKER_01]: then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. 21:56.455 --> 21:59.318 [SPEAKER_01]: For even the very wise cannot see all ends. 22:00.039 --> 22:05.766 [SPEAKER_01]: I have not much hope that gallum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. 22:06.527 --> 22:10.151 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always a chance and a chance is worth it in Gandalf's mind. 22:10.631 --> 22:12.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And he is bound up with the fate of the ring. 22:13.134 --> 22:20.263 [SPEAKER_01]: My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet for good or ill before the end. 22:20.243 --> 22:22.286 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this might be confusing to you. 22:22.386 --> 22:47.618 [SPEAKER_01]: You might think, well, if Gandalf thinks that he's tied up with the events of the ring and will do more bad, even if there's a chance he might do more bad, which could lead to the destruction of all Middle-earth by Sauron, then wouldn't it be worth taking the risk of just eliminating Gaulum in order to make sure that that bad version of things doesn't actually play out. 22:47.598 --> 22:52.965 [SPEAKER_01]: But remember, Gandalf believes in Eru in Luvitar. 22:53.245 --> 23:12.070 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't bring it up here, but he and many of the Valar and the Mayar understand the way the world was constructed, the song of creation, the ways that Eru Luvitar changed the melody in order to compensate for the evils. 23:12.539 --> 23:18.287 [SPEAKER_01]: In Gandalf's mind, it's not a matter of, is Gullum going to live on to do bad things? 23:18.908 --> 23:23.495 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, does Gullum still have a part to play in the song? 23:24.016 --> 23:31.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Because regardless of if he has good things to do or bad things to do, Gandalf knows. 23:31.405 --> 23:36.320 [SPEAKER_01]: that the song, the story of creation, works out in the end. 23:36.620 --> 23:46.309 [SPEAKER_01]: He has faith that by doing good, by being who he's supposed to be, and allowing everyone else to play their role. 23:46.424 --> 23:48.086 [SPEAKER_01]: The story will work out in the end. 23:48.407 --> 23:56.358 [SPEAKER_01]: And we know that at the end of the story, the ring wouldn't have fallen into the fires of Mountain Doom if it wasn't for Gaulim. 23:56.799 --> 23:58.922 [SPEAKER_01]: Still there, still wanting to get it back. 23:59.723 --> 24:01.646 [SPEAKER_01]: And Gandalf points this out already. 24:01.766 --> 24:04.991 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, and he is bound up with the fate of the ring. 24:05.592 --> 24:09.377 [SPEAKER_01]: My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet. 24:09.357 --> 24:21.468 [SPEAKER_01]: or good, or ill, and isn't that exactly what happens, and when that comes, the end, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many, yours not least. 24:22.751 --> 24:25.999 [SPEAKER_01]: Gandalf is revealing the end of the story before we're even there. 24:26.519 --> 24:28.603 [SPEAKER_01]: In any case, we did not kill him. 24:28.943 --> 24:30.826 [SPEAKER_01]: He is very old and very wretched. 24:31.267 --> 24:37.457 [SPEAKER_01]: The wood elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts. 24:37.738 --> 24:38.699 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is a funny comment. 24:39.140 --> 24:45.651 [SPEAKER_01]: Gandalf realizes that the elves don't always make the wisest decisions, but for the most part they're doing okay and they haven't killed him yet. 24:45.932 --> 24:48.035 [SPEAKER_01]: So, they're still on the side of good here. 24:48.716 --> 24:52.122 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, also, we know that he escapes that the wood elves 24:52.102 --> 24:53.886 [SPEAKER_01]: have him as prisoner, but he gets out. 24:54.668 --> 25:02.886 [SPEAKER_01]: But then Frodo responds, and he starts to take this in, it starts to make a little bit of sense, or at least he's willing to move on and says, all the same. 25:03.066 --> 25:07.657 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if Bilbo could not kill Gollum, I wish he had not kept the ring, I wish he had never found it. 25:07.917 --> 25:09.621 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I had not got it. 25:09.601 --> 25:11.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you let me keep it? 25:11.503 --> 25:14.727 [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you make me throw it away or destroy it? 25:15.027 --> 25:20.033 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tolkien is smart here because he's making Frodo do the thing that any of us would have done. 25:20.093 --> 25:22.876 [SPEAKER_01]: All of us would have thought through these things in those steps. 25:23.177 --> 25:24.338 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, why didn't he do this? 25:24.478 --> 25:25.479 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, why didn't he do this? 25:25.559 --> 25:28.302 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, since he did that, why don't we do this? 25:28.703 --> 25:33.969 [SPEAKER_01]: He's thinking through all the steps in order, which is part of processing this type of thing. 25:34.069 --> 25:34.770 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes sense. 25:35.671 --> 25:36.672 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, 25:36.652 --> 25:45.843 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, off response, it says, let you make you, haven't you been listening at all to that, I have said, you are not thinking of what you are saying. 25:45.883 --> 25:58.457 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, I've given you all my justifications, and I'm not going to make you do it, to don't you realize that taking someone's life is making them do thing, is choosing for them, and I'm not choosing for other people, I'm allowing them to make their decisions. 25:58.437 --> 26:00.660 [SPEAKER_01]: but okay, you're gonna get this eventually. 26:01.081 --> 26:05.027 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he describes that like throwing it away obviously is not going to work. 26:05.047 --> 26:07.050 [SPEAKER_01]: He says these rings have a way of being found. 26:07.230 --> 26:09.373 [SPEAKER_01]: In evil hands, it might have done great evil. 26:09.794 --> 26:12.638 [SPEAKER_01]: Worst of all, it might have fallen into the hands of the enemy. 26:12.998 --> 26:20.129 [SPEAKER_01]: Indeed, it certainly would for this is the one and he is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself. 26:20.669 --> 26:24.495 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's not just Orcs walking around looking for stuff. 26:24.475 --> 26:41.134 [SPEAKER_01]: this is power, this is his will to draw it, this explains some of the feelings that Frodo has on occasion where it feels like the ring is calling to him to put it on, that is all going back to the source, the sauron exerting his will. 26:41.114 --> 26:46.525 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Gandalf explains, yes, I understand it was dangerous for you, and that has troubled me deeply as what he says. 26:47.247 --> 26:50.373 [SPEAKER_01]: But there was so much at stake, and I had to take some risk. 26:50.393 --> 26:56.366 [SPEAKER_01]: Though even when I was far away, there has never been a day that the Shire has not been guarded by watchful eyes. 26:56.987 --> 27:01.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Another hint about Heragorn and the Rangers. 27:01.617 --> 27:10.109 [SPEAKER_01]: As long as you never used it, I did not think that the ring would have any lasting effect on you, not for evil, not at any rate for a very long time. 27:11.351 --> 27:18.742 [SPEAKER_01]: Gandalf is trusting of Frodo here, and knows that Frodo will do his best to do what he's instructed to do. 27:18.782 --> 27:30.679 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that he respects Gandalf, and is doing his best to understand Gandalf's perspective, but he's not quite there yet, but this is also interesting from the perspective of the ring. 27:30.811 --> 27:40.867 [SPEAKER_01]: Without putting it on, it will have no lasting evil effect on you, even being in proximity to it is not enough for it to fully corrupt somebody. 27:41.227 --> 27:42.549 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Gandalf defends himself. 27:42.609 --> 27:48.338 [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like some of this is from criticism from readers who are going to say, well, that's a plot hole. 27:48.378 --> 27:49.300 [SPEAKER_01]: Why didn't Gandalf do this? 27:49.841 --> 27:57.112 [SPEAKER_01]: But then he also explains that he says here, you have to remember, nine years ago, when I last saw you, I still knew little for certain. 27:57.613 --> 27:58.995 [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't sure yet. 28:00.055 --> 28:05.323 [SPEAKER_01]: But why not destroy it, as you say, should have been done long ago, cried Frodo again. 28:05.724 --> 28:10.411 [SPEAKER_01]: If you had warned me or even sent me a message, I would have done away with it. 28:10.692 --> 28:13.035 [SPEAKER_01]: And we all know how impossible that idea is, right? 28:14.057 --> 28:14.417 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you? 28:14.437 --> 28:16.060 [SPEAKER_01]: How would you do that? 28:16.701 --> 28:17.602 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever tried? 28:17.642 --> 28:22.150 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but I suppose one could hammer it or melt it. 28:22.590 --> 28:24.133 [SPEAKER_01]: Try, said Gandalf. 28:24.974 --> 28:25.675 [SPEAKER_01]: Try now. 28:29.755 --> 28:32.290 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 28:39.796 --> 28:44.861 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for being here, and thanks again to all of our patrons, everyone who helped support the show and keep this going. 28:45.282 --> 28:51.429 [SPEAKER_01]: Shoutouts to our newest patrons, Fox 345, and Big Tasty, welcome to the Patreon. 28:51.849 --> 28:57.495 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I know I'd only bring up other things every so often, but we've been having a lot of fun with Retro Recall. 28:57.535 --> 29:01.239 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are into Retro Video Games, go check out Retro Recall. 29:01.299 --> 29:06.765 [SPEAKER_01]: We've been talking about some really fun games, and also some really terrible ones. 29:06.745 --> 29:08.589 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that game doesn't hold up very good. 29:08.890 --> 29:09.531 [SPEAKER_01]: Go check it out. 29:09.651 --> 29:12.738 [SPEAKER_01]: Retro recall on whatever pod catch you're listening to this on. 29:12.758 --> 29:14.121 [SPEAKER_01]: We'd love to have you come join us over there. 29:14.141 --> 29:14.723 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of fun. 29:15.384 --> 29:17.870 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, thanks to our VIP Patrons. 29:17.910 --> 29:23.642 [SPEAKER_01]: Patreon.com slash L-O-T-R-Lork has to help support the show and you can get shoutouts every week like our VIP Patrons. 29:24.043 --> 29:24.805 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, 29:24.785 --> 29:31.560 [SPEAKER_01]: you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts or leave a nice comment on Spotify or join us on the Discord. 29:31.580 --> 29:32.983 [SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of ways to get involved. 29:33.364 --> 29:34.727 [SPEAKER_01]: Here, let's get through the list real quick. 29:34.747 --> 29:35.669 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to wrap this up. 29:36.070 --> 29:41.221 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to Fulcrum, David S, Daniel Knight, Weaver, Capena, Richard J. TJT, A.K. 29:41.241 --> 29:44.548 [SPEAKER_01]: Music Lover, Barney D, Asyl Razzle, Blade of Anderil, 29:44.528 --> 29:51.496 [SPEAKER_01]: Lori B. Norwegian Myart, Mason Weathertop, Jezor, Gimliya Break, Divine Madman, Rosie Rosé, the Bestesboy Ginger Fury. 29:51.557 --> 29:52.478 [SPEAKER_01]: Who on is my hero? 29:52.798 --> 29:56.803 [SPEAKER_01]: Aldarian was right, a very old party snacks, single-ent looking friendwise. 29:56.863 --> 30:08.858 [SPEAKER_01]: Norway Genius, Bruce W. Chris H. Artemis, Kira C. Doss S. Hunter, Terrumbar, Silverstar, and my name is August West. 30:08.998 --> 30:10.840 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for all of your support. 30:10.820 --> 30:12.285 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. 30:12.425 --> 30:14.412 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go talk about trees and things. 30:15.355 --> 30:17.001 [SPEAKER_01]: This will be fun on the bonus episode. 30:17.021 --> 30:17.422 [SPEAKER_01]: I promise. 30:17.703 --> 30:19.930 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you over there if you are one of our patrons. 30:20.011 --> 30:22.880 [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise have a great week and stay safe out there. 30:23.061 --> 30:23.783 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you next time. 30:27.172 --> 30:29.335 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 30:29.935 --> 30:33.900 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to learn more about other fantasy worlds, check out my other podcasts. 30:33.920 --> 30:38.225 [SPEAKER_01]: The Elder Scrolls lorecast, the Witcher lorecast, and more, have robotsradio.net. 30:38.686 --> 30:40.508 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. 30:41.028 --> 30:47.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Send me a note on Twitter at robots under score radio, or join our amazing community on the robots' radio discord. 30:48.037 --> 30:53.744 [SPEAKER_01]: There are links in the show notes, or just search robots' radio discord, or find the link on robotsradio.net. 30:54.004 --> 30:54.985 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you next time.