WEBVTT 00:07.085 --> 00:08.667 [SPEAKER_02]: and welcome to our show. 00:09.007 --> 00:11.290 [SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing. 00:12.071 --> 00:15.996 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling order Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by C.C. 00:16.036 --> 00:20.883 [SPEAKER_02]: Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary. 00:23.326 --> 00:26.770 [SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone, welcome back to another box with Hox segment. 00:27.131 --> 00:34.560 [SPEAKER_02]: As per usual, we're diving straight in. 00:35.536 --> 00:47.991 [SPEAKER_03]: Dear CC, I am delighted to submit to you my satirical body-horror debut, Mouth Peace, complete at 65,000 words based on your interest in acquiring fiction with morally ambiguous protagonists. 00:48.852 --> 00:58.403 [SPEAKER_03]: Mouth Peace is like the weird girl lit thick love child of RF quanks, yellow face, and Rachel Yauder's nitpitch. 00:58.423 --> 01:02.488 [SPEAKER_03]: But with Sheena Patels, I'm a fan, as an older sister. 01:02.789 --> 01:12.001 [SPEAKER_03]: Blanca Moore, quickly nearing 30 and stuck in a soul-sucking job, to afford her even more soul-crushing debt, wants to be an influencer. 01:12.501 --> 01:19.750 [SPEAKER_03]: When her long-term boyfriend dumps her for not paying enough attention to him, I guess the male loneliness epidemic is real. 01:20.391 --> 01:23.195 [SPEAKER_03]: She's determined to enter her 30s as a new woman. 01:23.735 --> 01:30.484 [SPEAKER_03]: Being a hashtag certified corporate girlie, she creates a detailed plan to achieve all of her goals. 01:30.464 --> 01:35.753 [SPEAKER_03]: Start dating again, get an Ozenbeck, and hold the party of the year, a funeral for her 20s. 01:36.535 --> 01:46.212 [SPEAKER_03]: But when a mysteriously gifted skin care product shows up on her doorstep that promises to transform her life, she jumps at the opportunity. 01:46.192 --> 02:06.698 [SPEAKER_03]: Desperate for beauty, validation, and digital relevance, she applies it with little suspicion, only to discover that it causes a small, insatiable mouth to grow on her stomach, as her online infamy grows, so does her hunger, and the only thing that will solve it and complete her transformation, the flesh of a man. 02:07.285 --> 02:12.773 [SPEAKER_03]: with her lavishly-themed birthday party looming, which she swears will go viral. 02:12.793 --> 02:15.397 [SPEAKER_03]: Blanca must confront the monstrous version of herself. 02:15.457 --> 02:18.801 [SPEAKER_03]: She's created before it consumes everything she has left. 02:18.821 --> 02:28.315 [SPEAKER_03]: I earned the Bachelor of Arts in English and a Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing, which taught me how to turn my weird ideas into electrical stories. 02:28.430 --> 02:39.144 [SPEAKER_03]: I may nearly 30-year-old Latina woman by navigating spaces entirely made for men while trying to balance the unobtainable beauty standards that society continues to impose. 02:40.125 --> 02:48.516 [SPEAKER_03]: I wrote mouthpiece as a way to give voice to the perils of aging and a desire to understand where the line between validation and value diverges. 02:49.237 --> 02:53.963 [SPEAKER_03]: My internalized rage, mainly at the patriarchy, lives on these pages. 02:54.623 --> 02:58.268 [SPEAKER_03]: I look forward to hearing from you. 02:59.733 --> 03:00.737 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, CC. 03:00.917 --> 03:03.306 [SPEAKER_02]: I continue to hear horror as whole. 03:03.868 --> 03:08.103 [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a bit, but I'm more in time to pick up the book if I hear whole than horror. 03:08.143 --> 03:09.247 [SPEAKER_02]: So there we are, you know. 03:09.709 --> 03:11.937 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, some marketing strategy. 03:13.418 --> 03:14.039 [SPEAKER_02]: I dig it. 03:14.520 --> 03:19.306 [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to ask you both because I don't know if this is a generational thing and because I'm 50. 03:19.707 --> 03:23.372 [SPEAKER_02]: But and I know it's on Instagram the girly thing. 03:23.432 --> 03:28.880 [SPEAKER_02]: The hashtag girly or people gang high girly, but it drives me insane. 03:29.160 --> 03:34.208 [SPEAKER_02]: Being called a girly, like actually makes me not want to buy any product pick up anything. 03:34.588 --> 03:38.093 [SPEAKER_02]: Is this because I'm old and grumpy, 03:39.743 --> 03:50.671 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's the infantilization of women to make them think that they need the thing even though they don't need the thing and it's like, well, if you want to be young then you're a girly so it's like you're just not being tracked. 03:50.711 --> 03:51.653 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is a good thing. 03:52.515 --> 03:55.643 [SPEAKER_03]: Bianca will not be tracked. 03:55.859 --> 04:00.089 [SPEAKER_02]: Is it that or are we taking back the word to empower ourselves like bitch? 04:00.149 --> 04:04.138 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I call all my, I'll sit down and have lines with all my friends be like hello bitches. 04:04.639 --> 04:08.067 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if it's that or if it is the infantillization. 04:08.087 --> 04:10.072 [SPEAKER_02]: So I need younger woman to explain it to me. 04:10.894 --> 04:12.337 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends on the audience. 04:12.939 --> 04:13.480 [SPEAKER_03]: Like her. 04:14.202 --> 04:23.955 [SPEAKER_03]: I definitely think that the evil powers that we are trying to infantilize women, but I also believe that like anything, language is a fluid thing, living thing. 04:24.135 --> 04:29.763 [SPEAKER_03]: And there are situations where you can do it to empower yourself, but it doesn't work on every audience and nor should it. 04:30.143 --> 04:32.346 [SPEAKER_03]: And nothing that is interesting is universally light. 04:32.927 --> 04:39.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's marketing doesn't mean you just blanket market to have the population also, like it is a subset, which you will not be fooled. 04:40.257 --> 04:46.184 [SPEAKER_02]: I will not be filled people, so CC, what did you think of the query, how many words were in they? 04:46.204 --> 04:47.966 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go. 04:47.986 --> 04:54.675 [SPEAKER_03]: So, 360 words started off really strong, you know, because we got Comps, we have a strong title. 04:54.735 --> 05:02.184 [SPEAKER_03]: The workout is on the shorter side, but at the same time, people have declining attention spans, and I quite like a pacing novel. 05:02.244 --> 05:03.806 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm okay with that. 05:03.826 --> 05:07.210 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I understand why she would submit this to me. 05:07.190 --> 05:08.031 [SPEAKER_03]: it's really great. 05:08.832 --> 05:13.779 [SPEAKER_03]: I also really like the first plot paragraph because it establishes the protagonist's place in the world. 05:14.040 --> 05:16.543 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I know what belong come more is up against. 05:16.683 --> 05:21.290 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm it's very important in a query letter to establish your protagonist's place in the world at the beginning of the story. 05:21.711 --> 05:25.155 [SPEAKER_03]: Not the place in the planet Earth's world, their world, right? 05:25.195 --> 05:30.984 [SPEAKER_03]: So I understand like her her grievances has her socio-emotional framework based on that paragraph alone. 05:31.044 --> 05:31.965 [SPEAKER_03]: So great job. 05:33.059 --> 05:36.904 [SPEAKER_03]: Then we get to like the change and storytelling is about change, right? 05:36.924 --> 05:38.005 [SPEAKER_03]: We get to like, what pull it up? 05:38.025 --> 05:40.048 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I understand the Insighting Incident very well. 05:40.108 --> 05:45.094 [SPEAKER_03]: She gets gifted this mysterious skincare product and the product transforms her. 05:45.254 --> 05:49.339 [SPEAKER_03]: What I'm not clear on and I really want to be is what this transformation entails. 05:49.560 --> 05:51.702 [SPEAKER_03]: A mouth to grow on her stomach. 05:51.722 --> 05:56.588 [SPEAKER_03]: Does this mean like there's a mouth where her belly button supposed to be like a mouth that is visible? 05:56.628 --> 06:02.796 [SPEAKER_03]: Or does this mean like a mouth inside the stomach? 06:02.776 --> 06:14.828 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm picturing like what do the suppersor like if she was bikini we're seeing about this what I fix yeah okay that's what I thought to it she does say on but like I'm not entirely sure and then like 06:14.943 --> 06:17.126 [SPEAKER_03]: what's the upside of that? 06:17.146 --> 06:23.115 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it is kind of weird and gross on which I know is the point here to have a mouth on your stomach. 06:23.335 --> 06:24.997 [SPEAKER_03]: My question is like what's the upside? 06:25.017 --> 06:30.926 [SPEAKER_03]: Because I know she says desperate for beauty, validation, digital relevance, but I'm not getting like what she's getting out of this. 06:31.286 --> 06:33.249 [SPEAKER_03]: This makes me think of the substance with demeanour. 06:33.309 --> 06:35.152 [SPEAKER_03]: I think everyone's going to think of the substance, right? 06:35.172 --> 06:36.834 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I think that's the natural association. 06:37.295 --> 06:37.575 [SPEAKER_03]: And 06:38.315 --> 06:42.761 [SPEAKER_03]: I have issues with that movie because of the major plot hole that no one talks about. 06:42.882 --> 06:44.304 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm the only one who cares. 06:44.324 --> 06:48.890 [SPEAKER_03]: On the trailer for that movie, trailer, the promise is clear. 06:49.030 --> 06:51.975 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, she gets to spend one week as a younger woman. 06:51.995 --> 06:53.557 [SPEAKER_03]: What is a trade off here? 06:53.797 --> 06:57.683 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I get that her online infamy grows, but it's infamy. 06:57.703 --> 07:03.811 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's a reference to the only thing that will complete her transformation is the flesh of a man. 07:03.831 --> 07:05.574 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, complete her transformation into what? 07:05.594 --> 07:07.697 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, is it to get rid of the visible mouth? 07:07.677 --> 07:23.087 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it to become, I guess, more attractive, but I just want a lot of specificity with the transformation because this is a story that hinges on me understanding why someone would pay a cost, a very specific cost to achieve a very specific gain. 07:23.337 --> 07:43.253 [SPEAKER_03]: And I suspect that the storyteller is holding back on telling us the specifics, because she doesn't want spoilers, and I am precise, but at the same time, everything before the climax is very game, and I'm just urging to be more specific because, remember, agents review queries and batches, we're looking at 50 queries at the same time, or more, and. 07:43.233 --> 07:48.239 [SPEAKER_03]: We get a lot of stories where it's like, oh, there's this transformation that's going to take place, but the cost is really high. 07:48.799 --> 07:51.762 [SPEAKER_03]: What about your story makes it unique and special? 07:52.003 --> 07:55.046 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's your job to highlight that in the query letter. 07:55.246 --> 07:58.250 [SPEAKER_03]: I will say that the idea of a funeral for your 20s is very cool. 07:59.231 --> 08:01.393 [SPEAKER_03]: I wish I had no one about that, because I totally would have thrown one. 08:01.974 --> 08:02.735 [SPEAKER_03]: That sounds awesome. 08:02.855 --> 08:04.677 [SPEAKER_03]: It's dark and weird, and I like that. 08:04.897 --> 08:08.021 [SPEAKER_03]: I also really like the author bio. 08:08.401 --> 08:11.164 [SPEAKER_03]: She has internalized rage and so do I. 08:11.296 --> 08:15.928 [SPEAKER_03]: of all the seven sins wrapped for sure my number one, even more than gluttony and I eat a lot. 08:16.550 --> 08:21.643 [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, I feel you author, I also have rage and I appreciate you mentioning that in the query letter. 08:23.294 --> 08:24.115 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, CC. 08:24.575 --> 08:26.117 [SPEAKER_02]: I too love weird parties. 08:26.177 --> 08:33.263 [SPEAKER_02]: A friend of mine, when she called of her engagement in her 20s, had a what the fuck was I thinking party? 08:33.283 --> 08:35.745 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, that was amazing. 08:35.765 --> 08:44.573 [SPEAKER_02]: The only problem was they were like 15 women there and I chose that night to introduce Steven to all of these really angry women. 08:44.974 --> 08:47.076 [SPEAKER_02]: But it was a good test because he posted it if you could. 08:47.096 --> 08:50.719 [SPEAKER_01]: He could have already, but you know, everyone's well- So, yeah, it's interesting. 08:50.699 --> 08:56.265 [SPEAKER_02]: Man-hating, man-bashing, and he walked out of their bruise, but he was fine, so that's, so that's good. 08:56.285 --> 08:59.148 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Kali, handing it across to you. 08:59.168 --> 08:59.769 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here we go. 09:00.089 --> 09:00.770 [SPEAKER_01]: A couple things. 09:01.151 --> 09:09.780 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think I actually have something kind of controversial to say, and we don't actually usually have a lot of overlap between shooting the shit and this podcast. 09:09.840 --> 09:13.504 [SPEAKER_01]: Our books with hoax podcast, but I want to kind of bridge the gap a little bit here. 09:14.085 --> 09:20.352 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I have and feel free to disagree with me, but I posit a theory that 09:20.652 --> 09:23.546 [SPEAKER_01]: queer letters are going to get better and better and better over time. 09:23.767 --> 09:27.928 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of the thing we talk about on shooting the shit all the time which is AI. 09:28.263 --> 09:32.089 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you guys think that we are going to make ourselves obsolete? 09:32.189 --> 09:35.674 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we've been giving so much advice about query letters over the years. 09:36.175 --> 09:38.778 [SPEAKER_01]: So much information is out there about how to write a great query letter. 09:38.839 --> 09:41.182 [SPEAKER_01]: The query letters we have today are quite strong. 09:41.302 --> 09:42.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, we always have notes. 09:42.624 --> 09:46.550 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, do you guys think we have like outsmarted ourselves into obsolescence? 09:47.111 --> 09:49.674 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you guys think we're still gonna have a podcast or job? 09:49.935 --> 09:52.819 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think our role is gonna be in query letters? 09:54.740 --> 09:58.045 [SPEAKER_03]: I think if all query letters are great, first and foremost, I'll be very happy. 09:58.445 --> 10:00.268 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it'll mean we will be out of a job. 10:00.448 --> 10:05.735 [SPEAKER_03]: But can you imagine going through this lush file and having all the query letters to be like absolutely fantastic? 10:05.816 --> 10:06.436 [SPEAKER_03]: I want that life. 10:06.637 --> 10:09.260 [SPEAKER_03]: So yay, if that happens, do I think it's going to happen? 10:09.401 --> 10:10.682 [SPEAKER_03]: No, we don't. 10:10.903 --> 10:11.283 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. 10:11.303 --> 10:17.612 [SPEAKER_03]: Because again, I am not someone with a lot of AI proficiency, so perhaps this is coming from a place of ignorance. 10:18.313 --> 10:19.735 [SPEAKER_03]: But I, 10:19.715 --> 10:29.910 [SPEAKER_03]: personally feel that what AI does is it regurgitates generic language in a way that it gives out what I call empty impact lines. 10:30.397 --> 10:30.837 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 10:30.858 --> 10:34.141 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, like a lot like a dramatic panic and then you're like, what is this even? 10:34.181 --> 10:34.421 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 10:34.862 --> 10:35.102 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 10:35.122 --> 10:35.282 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 10:35.302 --> 10:36.003 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 10:36.103 --> 10:37.185 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't have it. 10:37.205 --> 10:39.407 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no meat that's big exactly. 10:39.467 --> 10:44.893 [SPEAKER_03]: And for two seconds if you're reading it, you go, oh, impactful, but then you go actually not really. 10:45.273 --> 10:48.397 [SPEAKER_03]: And an A agents have a really good BS, rather. 10:48.417 --> 10:48.737 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 10:48.757 --> 10:53.923 [SPEAKER_03]: We we can spot him to impact lines better than the average person, but also be like, 10:53.903 --> 10:58.433 [SPEAKER_03]: when you're reading 50 query letters, the impact lines just lose their, do you know what I'm saying? 10:58.453 --> 11:01.519 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, meet and substance is the most important thing in a query letter. 11:02.101 --> 11:07.352 [SPEAKER_03]: It can't be smoking mirrors and I think AI does smoking mirrors, but hey, I could be wrong, you know. 11:08.354 --> 11:12.182 [SPEAKER_02]: Meet is important in your query letter because of the 11:12.567 --> 11:14.209 [SPEAKER_02]: stomach mouth thing. 11:14.249 --> 11:14.770 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not fake. 11:14.790 --> 11:15.451 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to be fed. 11:16.071 --> 11:17.834 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to be fed right queer letters. 11:18.895 --> 11:22.760 [SPEAKER_01]: So okay, so I think I'm not advocating. 11:22.840 --> 11:23.781 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be very clear. 11:23.941 --> 11:28.607 [SPEAKER_01]: I am not advocating for people to be writing their queer letters with AI. 11:28.848 --> 11:36.457 [SPEAKER_01]: I would be hard pressed to know for sure whether there are people that listen to this that are not doing that, you know, either way. 11:36.617 --> 11:41.764 [SPEAKER_01]: So 11:42.740 --> 11:54.741 [SPEAKER_01]: know that the empty impact statements are what is going to suit you because you could be thinking, oh, I asked AI to write me a query letter like, you know, this best selling novel, but 11:55.244 --> 12:01.515 [SPEAKER_01]: what it's going to do is regurgitate things, be unclear, and sound great and not actually get to the heart of your project. 12:01.535 --> 12:04.280 [SPEAKER_01]: So do not put your material into AI. 12:04.300 --> 12:12.535 [SPEAKER_01]: All of you that are rolling your eyes at me while you're driving your car, eyes on the road, because we need you to write the best grade letter that you can. 12:12.595 --> 12:17.083 [SPEAKER_01]: And we will still be here to help you guys with your query letters because that is our job. 12:17.063 --> 12:18.686 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, back to the square letter at hand. 12:18.886 --> 12:30.103 [SPEAKER_01]: In the second line, you say, based on your interest in acquiring fiction, just to remind to that agents don't acquire, like we sign clients and acquiring is a very specific word. 12:30.744 --> 12:35.211 [SPEAKER_01]: Acquiring is what editors do when they buy the book for the publisher. 12:35.251 --> 12:37.996 [SPEAKER_01]: So just FYI acquiring is a really tricky word here. 12:38.016 --> 12:38.877 [SPEAKER_01]: So don't use it. 12:38.897 --> 12:40.219 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, okay, I just need to interrupt. 12:40.199 --> 12:42.722 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of agents put it up put on their wish list. 12:43.002 --> 12:44.644 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm looking to acquire blah, blah, blah. 12:44.704 --> 12:48.288 [SPEAKER_03]: Like she's probably just copying what like a billion agents do. 12:48.468 --> 12:48.768 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 12:48.788 --> 12:50.169 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just say just okay. 12:50.350 --> 12:51.951 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, we're disagreeing. 12:52.051 --> 12:53.413 [SPEAKER_01]: We're disagreeing on this. 12:58.398 --> 13:05.886 [SPEAKER_03]: But see, here's the thing, when I first heard it, when I started agenting, I was like, you just don't acquire and then I noticed everyone doing it and I'm like, you know what, the choir for the list. 13:05.866 --> 13:14.014 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I just got over it because everyone doesn't, and I'm just saying that the author is probably like imitating or emulating what she sees. 13:14.034 --> 13:14.134 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 13:14.154 --> 13:20.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Another reason why this podcast will never die is because we have so many opinions, and we do not speak for everybody. 13:20.981 --> 13:22.763 [SPEAKER_01]: I will just flag that as a yellow flag. 13:22.783 --> 13:25.846 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go with a yellow flag there for the term acquiring fiction. 13:26.406 --> 13:28.528 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, there are way too many cops. 13:28.728 --> 13:30.090 [SPEAKER_01]: For cops is a lot of cops. 13:30.210 --> 13:30.991 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot of cops. 13:31.011 --> 13:33.493 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we need to kind of narrow that down a little bit. 13:33.676 --> 13:37.680 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the substance, like CC talked about is an obvious omission here. 13:38.461 --> 13:41.824 [SPEAKER_02]: Colin, can I just jump in without making you lose your train of thought? 13:42.204 --> 14:00.983 [SPEAKER_02]: Something that I'm finding fascinating, now that we've started the mutual dream agent segment in our Tuesday sub stack where we interview different agents so that our listeners can get to know them better is how many of them say that when they tap out of a query letter is because of bad cops. 14:00.963 --> 14:03.806 [SPEAKER_02]: comes that don't fit with the genre, et cetera. 14:04.246 --> 14:08.030 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was honestly thinking it would be something else like the plot paragraph. 14:08.150 --> 14:11.493 [SPEAKER_02]: And so many of them are saying, these comps don't make any sense. 14:11.694 --> 14:12.634 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm tapping out. 14:12.695 --> 14:14.817 [SPEAKER_02]: So shows you how important the comps are. 14:14.837 --> 14:15.197 [SPEAKER_02]: All right. 14:15.217 --> 14:16.999 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that's the thing that we have. 14:17.159 --> 14:21.043 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a lot of things we're like trying to like hammer home with their audience over the years. 14:21.783 --> 14:27.409 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope our long-term listeners know how strong we feel about comps 14:27.592 --> 14:35.962 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so important in your understanding of your place within the larger marketplace where you want to go, what your goals are, how you see things. 14:36.002 --> 14:39.046 [SPEAKER_01]: CC, why are you relying your eyes at me? 14:39.066 --> 14:39.807 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not at you. 14:39.907 --> 14:41.369 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking something really bad. 14:41.409 --> 14:42.891 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to say, but I'm like, don't say. 14:42.911 --> 14:47.637 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, when we're all recording, when we're done recording, we can gossip. 14:47.677 --> 14:48.858 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm going to say it. 14:48.878 --> 14:49.719 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know what I think? 14:49.739 --> 14:54.084 [SPEAKER_03]: Whenever an agent says that, whenever an agent says, oh, I tap out because of the comms, I go do it. 14:54.145 --> 14:56.147 [SPEAKER_03]: So I can take the project from me. 14:56.465 --> 14:58.989 [SPEAKER_03]: because I have signed people with terrible comps. 14:59.289 --> 15:00.491 [SPEAKER_03]: So what story was great? 15:00.631 --> 15:01.973 [SPEAKER_03]: I will find the damn comps. 15:02.454 --> 15:03.596 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I will do it. 15:03.716 --> 15:06.139 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not, again, is it smarter for the author to find it? 15:06.179 --> 15:10.486 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but I'm sorry agents who are doing this, you're missing out. 15:10.666 --> 15:13.971 [SPEAKER_03]: You're missing out, you are, I get it, you time is limited. 15:14.071 --> 15:19.880 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm busy too, but you know, finding comps is really hard and as long as the story is great, I will find them. 15:20.080 --> 15:20.821 [SPEAKER_03]: I know how to search. 15:21.282 --> 15:24.126 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think this is also a classic case 15:24.562 --> 15:28.331 [SPEAKER_01]: different agents at different point in their careers are going to pay attention to different things. 15:28.351 --> 15:28.711 [SPEAKER_01]: Very true. 15:28.732 --> 15:38.694 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you are building your list, you're more likely to overlook things like that because you have the brain power and the time and the energy to be like, you know, I can sort of through this to figure it out. 15:38.875 --> 15:42.503 [SPEAKER_01]: And the more established an agent is, the more likely they are to skip, especially. 15:43.580 --> 15:44.601 [SPEAKER_01]: So, all good points. 15:44.641 --> 15:47.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, can I please make it to the second paragraph please? 15:48.245 --> 15:49.727 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, colleagues, getting pissy. 15:49.967 --> 15:51.609 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay, go, colleague. 15:52.270 --> 15:56.935 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, one thing we haven't talked about with this submission is this idea of satire. 15:57.837 --> 16:02.982 [SPEAKER_01]: Because like I am a bit confused on what specifically is satirical about it. 16:03.083 --> 16:06.887 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very obvious, I think, what this metaphor is. 16:07.120 --> 16:15.809 [SPEAKER_01]: for female ambition, for female rage, for the ways that our bodies are police, the way that our bodies are put on show. 16:15.849 --> 16:19.052 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it is very clear to me what we're kind of working with. 16:19.352 --> 16:21.814 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what the satire is. 16:21.834 --> 16:24.037 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe I'm being a bit dense here. 16:24.457 --> 16:26.419 [SPEAKER_01]: But what is the theoretical about this? 16:26.479 --> 16:34.647 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's so straight on that you, like this, I don't know this allegory, I don't know what to call it, like the body horror part, right of the mouth on the stomach. 16:34.627 --> 16:37.111 [SPEAKER_01]: So what about it is satire? 16:37.331 --> 16:38.232 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it literary? 16:38.273 --> 16:39.895 [SPEAKER_01]: The cops are very literary. 16:39.915 --> 16:44.101 [SPEAKER_01]: The tone is very playful, influence or language that feels more commercial. 16:44.141 --> 16:48.749 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really sure that it is satire to be perfectly honest with you. 16:49.149 --> 16:51.893 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I need to be convinced that this is satire. 16:51.953 --> 16:55.459 [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel very strongly like that's the piece of this that's missing for me. 16:55.939 --> 17:00.246 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the author bio is great and thank you for letting me make it to the end of the query letter. 17:03.550 --> 17:05.694 [SPEAKER_02]: Say something else, Kali, so I can interrupt you. 17:08.819 --> 17:11.884 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, oh, she just fleshed us the big guns. 17:11.904 --> 17:17.413 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not watching, if you're not watching on YouTube, this is the moment you need to go and watch what she did. 17:19.938 --> 17:24.225 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, CC, I'm handing it across to you now, tell us what's in the pages. 17:24.965 --> 17:26.368 [SPEAKER_03]: We drive silly tea today. 17:26.909 --> 17:29.133 [SPEAKER_03]: All of us, we all cut a special delivery. 17:29.153 --> 17:36.849 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so we have chapter one, and then we have a stamp 30 days, didn't do. 17:36.869 --> 17:42.400 [SPEAKER_03]: We began with interiority, the protagonist is in her 30s with nearly $100,000 in debt. 17:42.380 --> 18:11.290 [SPEAKER_03]: And she's thinking about how, you know, her boyfriend does everything around the house and the domestic stuff and that means they're modern couple that he likes doing it she doesn't and that he's very needy like he's very frustrating and needy in her boyfriend's like hey can we talk and she's like not now and he's like can we talk about us and she's like oh my gosh, this is so annoying she keeps trying to post and edit a video that so she can post and have views but we know that you know she's not doing a really good job with her views and her boyfriend keeps talking and she's not paying attention to him. 18:11.658 --> 18:13.481 [SPEAKER_03]: And then she does start paying attention to him. 18:13.521 --> 18:17.727 [SPEAKER_03]: And he says, yeah, well, I think we need to save money. 18:17.747 --> 18:19.109 [SPEAKER_03]: We've been spending too much money. 18:19.269 --> 18:20.071 [SPEAKER_03]: It's, you know, I do it. 18:20.091 --> 18:20.491 [SPEAKER_03]: You do it. 18:20.531 --> 18:21.373 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about it. 18:21.633 --> 18:24.217 [SPEAKER_03]: And she's thinking to herself, oh my god, not this again. 18:24.337 --> 18:26.440 [SPEAKER_03]: Like they've had this conversation again a million times. 18:26.801 --> 18:29.966 [SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, look, I don't want to do that. 18:29.986 --> 18:31.067 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to live a small life. 18:31.247 --> 18:32.970 [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, maybe one day we'll start a family. 18:33.050 --> 18:34.132 [SPEAKER_03]: Kids are good content. 18:34.252 --> 18:38.378 [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, I really want a big thriving fun life. 18:38.398 --> 18:40.281 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's essentially what happens. 18:41.628 --> 18:46.035 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so take us through your thoughts on that. 18:46.055 --> 18:48.399 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'll start with a big picture thought. 18:48.599 --> 18:49.721 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's starting the right place. 18:50.362 --> 18:58.175 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that this author is falling prey to a very common mistake, which is, my job is to give a before a snapshot. 18:59.016 --> 19:02.502 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, before the Insighting Incident, what does my protagonist's life look like? 19:02.522 --> 19:04.345 [SPEAKER_03]: And so she picked a typical day. 19:06.383 --> 19:27.733 [SPEAKER_03]: I understand the impulse and it is true that we need to know what your protagonist's life looks like before the big change, this is true, but that doesn't mean that any scene before the change fits the bill and delivers the promise that we need and in this case it in my opinion doesn't because it's a little too mundane, a little too on the nose. 19:28.523 --> 19:34.832 [SPEAKER_03]: Literally the first two pair of graphs and you guys know I'm a fan of interior already, but it's essentially her going through her situation. 19:34.992 --> 19:38.998 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like she's in debt She has nothing to show for her life. 19:39.199 --> 19:44.627 [SPEAKER_03]: Jordan is her stable boyfriend She makes a lot more money than than he does. 19:44.727 --> 19:48.813 [SPEAKER_03]: She loves to say that whenever they fight He doesn't work things around the house. 19:49.253 --> 19:50.235 [SPEAKER_03]: They are modern couple. 19:50.595 --> 19:55.122 [SPEAKER_03]: She needs time to post on TikTok She aims to post three times a day even though her 19:55.102 --> 19:57.585 [SPEAKER_03]: views aren't getting, like, this is all like two paragraphs. 19:57.746 --> 19:59.888 [SPEAKER_01]: But CC, do you actually think this is interiority? 19:59.929 --> 20:01.631 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you just call this interiority. 20:01.991 --> 20:04.234 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually don't think this is very interior. 20:05.836 --> 20:13.667 [SPEAKER_03]: So my definition of interiority, and this is where it depends on the jargon you use, is access to your protagonist's psyche as the process information in an interesting way. 20:14.238 --> 20:20.604 [SPEAKER_03]: So anything that's not neutral, like you walk into a room and you go, there is a green couch, that's not interiority, a CCTV camera could capture that. 20:20.984 --> 20:23.266 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you say it's an ugly green couch, that's an opinion. 20:23.486 --> 20:24.607 [SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, it's interiority. 20:24.667 --> 20:29.672 [SPEAKER_03]: So I agree with you that a lot of people would consider this, it's like a CCTV thing. 20:30.272 --> 20:34.116 [SPEAKER_03]: It's exposition, but interiority can be exposition, interiority can also not be. 20:34.336 --> 20:35.937 [SPEAKER_03]: Does that answer your question? 20:35.957 --> 20:42.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just, like, I don't know if you answered my question, do you think this is doing the job of what you consider interiority? 20:42.790 --> 20:43.792 [SPEAKER_03]: The interesting part, no. 20:44.172 --> 20:46.576 [SPEAKER_03]: It is access to her Zeki as she processes information. 20:47.277 --> 20:47.377 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 20:47.397 --> 20:48.799 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's not doing the interesting part. 20:49.100 --> 20:56.591 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, no, in that sense, but yes, in the sense of what she's trying to do, because I believe that the storyteller thinks this is interesting, right? 20:56.631 --> 20:59.295 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm, I think I'm addressing her intent and her effort. 20:59.475 --> 21:10.452 [SPEAKER_03]: She, and again, I know that if you're writing a story where the whole plot hinges on a woman, being unhappy in her life, 21:10.955 --> 21:19.764 [SPEAKER_03]: sucked in by the internet world of social media and attention and views and likes and wanting to get influencer because that's her only chance of a better life. 21:20.905 --> 21:29.794 [SPEAKER_03]: And then she goes really far to get that I understand that it might be tempting to be like I'm going to start with the paragraph about her life needs to improve but it's too on the nose for my taste. 21:30.455 --> 21:33.078 [SPEAKER_03]: There are people who like this more a little bit more on the nose fiction. 21:33.258 --> 21:34.379 [SPEAKER_03]: It is not for me. 21:34.519 --> 21:35.460 [SPEAKER_03]: Like the 21:36.470 --> 21:39.174 [SPEAKER_03]: As soon as I wrote the first few paragraphs, I was like, okay, the writing isn't for me. 21:39.194 --> 21:45.965 [SPEAKER_03]: It's one of the reasons why all we really need to see is a few pages to know whether we might be or might not be a good fit for a client. 21:46.165 --> 21:47.127 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all the writing, right? 21:47.788 --> 21:53.136 [SPEAKER_03]: So I did think that there were some really clever things, like, for example, instead of having her think about what she looks like. 21:53.256 --> 21:55.099 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, help the color of her hair, her eyes. 21:55.159 --> 22:01.549 [SPEAKER_03]: She is looking at herself through the video that she just filmed, but she uses filters. 22:01.529 --> 22:17.009 [SPEAKER_03]: and she talks about how the filters make her look so much better that instead of her mouse-y hair, her hair looks xy-z and that is a very clever way to not only weave in the stories themes in a way that's more subtle but also to give the description of the protagonist. 22:17.029 --> 22:21.074 [SPEAKER_03]: So I actually think that the author here has a lot of potential. 22:21.695 --> 22:23.698 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it's a type of story that's for me. 22:24.098 --> 22:26.421 [SPEAKER_03]: Like again, it's just like just the kind of writing that it is. 22:26.461 --> 22:27.823 [SPEAKER_03]: It isn't a 22:27.803 --> 22:29.045 [SPEAKER_03]: but that's like a personal thing. 22:29.686 --> 22:31.708 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it's not starting in the right place. 22:32.009 --> 22:34.773 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would encourage you to find more interesting scene. 22:35.053 --> 22:45.848 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it needs to be a scene where the disruption is very juicy and there's a shift in power dynamics, a shift in, in, in, in, expects, a story forward expectations. 22:45.988 --> 22:47.550 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not seeing that here. 22:48.526 --> 22:49.407 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, CC. 22:49.548 --> 22:51.851 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's just a few pages later. 22:51.931 --> 23:08.998 [SPEAKER_02]: So for authors a lot of the time, you know, I know I start somewhere with that I think is the beginning and it's not it's generally further along or way before, but yeah, read the rest of your pages and see if there is a scene that'll take all those boxes for CC. 23:09.338 --> 23:11.481 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't necessarily mean a rewrite. 23:11.902 --> 23:13.825 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Carly moving on to you. 23:14.783 --> 23:20.649 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, a long time listeners of this show know my feelings around influencer characters. 23:22.270 --> 23:26.695 [SPEAKER_01]: This is an example of something that I feel is just going to date itself. 23:26.715 --> 23:33.621 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where I really struggle as an agent because I have to think, okay, of course, when I would sign a project, I would hope to sell it quickly. 23:33.641 --> 23:35.683 [SPEAKER_01]: There's times where I don't sell it but quickly. 23:35.763 --> 23:44.672 [SPEAKER_01]: I just made it a real not too long ago talking about how I signed a book in 2017 23:44.855 --> 24:09.765 [SPEAKER_01]: There are projects that just take a lot of time to sell and that is one of the reasons why I can't take on many if any influencer projects because yes, I do believe that this version of the internet where there is social media is going to be around for a very long time it changes constantly like I think we can argue quarterly that the algorithm changes in ways that is unrecognizable. 24:09.931 --> 24:18.543 [SPEAKER_01]: And we spend so many words in these opening pages talking about, I have to post within this window, because this is when my audience is online. 24:19.504 --> 24:24.011 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we really say in two years that the algorithm is going to be used in that way? 24:24.171 --> 24:25.272 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that we can. 24:25.333 --> 24:29.178 [SPEAKER_01]: And this could just be an example of this book is not starting in the right place. 24:29.338 --> 24:31.982 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm picking on something specific to this character. 24:32.082 --> 24:34.145 [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, you can fault me for that. 24:34.205 --> 24:35.787 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's my job. 24:36.008 --> 24:39.212 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the way that I'm going to read this. 24:39.462 --> 24:42.001 [SPEAKER_01]: And I definitely definitely struggle with that. 24:42.384 --> 24:44.359 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I struggle with is 24:45.048 --> 24:49.714 [SPEAKER_01]: If she is trying to take her job really seriously, then why is this in an 11th hour project? 24:49.854 --> 24:55.822 [SPEAKER_01]: When her partner is trying to talk to her, she's like, I have to do this before my audience is no longer online. 24:56.103 --> 25:01.830 [SPEAKER_01]: If you were a real kind of committed influence, you'd be like, I've played my content calendar for the next three weeks. 25:01.850 --> 25:03.953 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, I know what I'm doing at any given point. 25:04.253 --> 25:07.678 [SPEAKER_01]: So why would we be doing an 11th hour creative project? 25:07.698 --> 25:08.739 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand that. 25:09.280 --> 25:12.304 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm still not sure where the satire is. 25:13.060 --> 25:15.284 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not see it on the page. 25:15.304 --> 25:17.687 [SPEAKER_01]: And it could be that, again, it's coming. 25:17.787 --> 25:19.630 [SPEAKER_01]: It's something like, again, it's horror. 25:19.690 --> 25:22.455 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we're like building to this satire as we build to the horror. 25:22.855 --> 25:24.057 [SPEAKER_01]: All of that could be true. 25:24.077 --> 25:29.165 [SPEAKER_01]: In my mind, that is something that sets this apart and really sets this project apart. 25:29.246 --> 25:36.537 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if that is really specific to your project as promised in the query letter, I would really try to find a way to layer in this satire much earlier. 25:37.360 --> 25:38.121 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Kali. 25:38.181 --> 25:46.314 [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to give a shout out to one of my favorite influence books and it's a Canadian author, Lee Ann Zang, who wrote Julie Chan is dead. 25:46.615 --> 25:52.224 [SPEAKER_02]: So for this author to maybe check it out or anybody who's writing about influences that was a really great book. 25:52.725 --> 25:58.354 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, before we move on to Kali's query, first note from our sponsors. 26:01.339 --> 26:03.402 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kali handing it across to you. 26:04.563 --> 26:21.003 [SPEAKER_01]: Dear Carly, based on your interest in stories about motherhood, family, and ambition, I'm thrilled to share with you nothing close to perfect, a 95,000 word, multi-pu-v, contemporary fiction, but what happens when a long, running affair unravels the finally orchestrated lives of an ascending political family. 26:21.023 --> 26:30.334 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the escalating impact of family secrets and lies, as Andrew Dunlopps women are the fiercest creature, meets the challenges of midlife marriage and motherhood and clear the maridows same as it ever was. 26:31.006 --> 26:35.357 [SPEAKER_01]: Melody Sullivan has spent the past 25 years trying to build something close to a perfect life. 26:35.597 --> 26:43.176 [SPEAKER_01]: She's married to Billy, her college sweetheart, and a U.S. senator planning the wedding of the year for her daughter and trying to keep her son focused on college net of trouble. 26:44.455 --> 26:53.708 [SPEAKER_01]: But when a new story meant to soft launch Billy's presidential campaign instead reveals his long-term affair with Iris, a struggling, diner waitress, the perfect family facade is shattered beyond repair. 26:54.429 --> 27:02.481 [SPEAKER_01]: As Melody and her adult children flee to the Family Beach House on an exclusive island, Iris deals with the follow, trapped with Billy's newborn daughter and her DC apartment. 27:03.136 --> 27:15.595 [SPEAKER_01]: In the months that follow, as Melody considers a future without the man, she's depended on and develops complicated feelings for the handyman working next door, her daughter's struggles with giving up her own ambitions for fiancees, while her son drops out of his elite college to work at a bar. 27:15.655 --> 27:22.866 [SPEAKER_01]: As Billy tries to make a men's to save his floundering campaign in his family while also continuing this relationship with Iris, a second new story breaks. 27:22.846 --> 27:26.477 [SPEAKER_01]: The life melody that has created has been built on an unforgettable why. 27:26.517 --> 27:35.826 [SPEAKER_01]: The consequences will both be devastating and ultimately freeing as melody, her children, and Iris must decide what and who they're willing to give up for something better than her life. 27:37.358 --> 27:45.008 [SPEAKER_01]: I work in higher education in North Carolina where the story is set in where Senator John Edwards torpedoed his political career and his family over in a fair. 27:45.669 --> 27:58.125 [SPEAKER_01]: Well not a retelling, nothing close to perfect is inspired by those events, plus the many other stories of powerful men behaving poorly and would be my debut novel, Living Close, the first five pages below and look forward to your feedback since the early Allison McWilliams. 27:59.426 --> 28:03.872 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, some colleague, okay, how many words was that and what would you take on it? 28:04.578 --> 28:11.306 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a post script sharing their love for the pod, and also letting me know that it was 381 words. 28:12.748 --> 28:14.310 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so here we go. 28:14.330 --> 28:16.092 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't love this title. 28:16.333 --> 28:17.814 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a little bit forgettable. 28:18.015 --> 28:20.518 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to see what your other options are. 28:20.858 --> 28:32.813 [SPEAKER_01]: When I request full manuscripts as part of my querying process, I always ask for a list of alternate titles, because it makes me so curious about other ways that authors see their own work, other title ideas that they have. 28:33.113 --> 28:34.935 [SPEAKER_01]: Almost always picking one off the list. 28:35.176 --> 28:36.838 [SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't there, the lead title. 28:37.518 --> 28:39.040 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I find this a little bit forgettable. 28:39.861 --> 28:41.343 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would look at this one again. 28:41.684 --> 28:43.165 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, back now to the cops here. 28:43.266 --> 28:46.770 [SPEAKER_01]: So as much as I love that you're picking women of the fiercest creatures. 28:46.830 --> 28:50.414 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that it's necessarily the wrong cop here. 28:50.875 --> 28:54.159 [SPEAKER_01]: Cops that I think are a bit more fine-tuned. 28:54.219 --> 28:56.382 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say, it would be scandal. 28:56.522 --> 28:58.124 [SPEAKER_01]: Why, why would we cop to scandal? 28:58.244 --> 29:03.070 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not the most up-to-date show, but everybody loves scandal. 29:03.050 --> 29:13.141 [SPEAKER_01]: Another one, I was trying to think, I've read so many Ellen Hill to Graham books and I was trying to figure out before we became online, like what was the Ellen Hill to Graham book about a torpedoed political career? 29:13.161 --> 29:15.204 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty sure it's 28 summers. 29:15.344 --> 29:18.968 [SPEAKER_01]: Fact check me on that because I get I did a really quick Google before we came online. 29:19.328 --> 29:21.210 [SPEAKER_01]: But the Ellen Hill to Graham book 28 summers. 29:21.250 --> 29:24.074 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm pretty sure that CCDGB that one, 28 summers. 29:24.254 --> 29:25.395 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I'm talking about? 29:26.084 --> 29:32.631 [SPEAKER_03]: I do, yeah, I don't remember if it's that one though, because the thing about Ellen's books is that I remember the story, but I never remember the title. 29:32.791 --> 29:33.952 [SPEAKER_03]: I just go Ellen's book. 29:34.973 --> 29:35.774 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 29:35.794 --> 29:37.115 [SPEAKER_03]: It's what happens with name linkage. 29:37.135 --> 29:37.976 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I'm a really Henry. 29:37.996 --> 29:39.758 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't remember which one it was that I read. 29:40.058 --> 29:40.598 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know. 29:40.618 --> 29:41.960 [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose with that bread it would be year. 29:42.440 --> 29:45.083 [SPEAKER_03]: One where we see the same time next year. 29:45.143 --> 29:49.667 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's the same time next year with the, and then he rides a political campaign. 29:49.707 --> 29:50.668 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she stays on the island. 29:50.688 --> 29:51.349 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes. 29:51.369 --> 29:52.010 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I'm really excited. 29:52.090 --> 29:54.252 [SPEAKER_01]: In that case, in that case, it's a great book. 29:54.687 --> 29:57.072 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, this, this is really thing, it's okay. 29:57.092 --> 29:59.277 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, you know, I'm pretty sure that one. 29:59.317 --> 29:59.517 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 29:59.537 --> 30:02.303 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would do scandal meets 28 summers. 30:02.524 --> 30:05.430 [SPEAKER_01]: If it was me as an example, I'm not saying you have to do that. 30:05.530 --> 30:06.672 [SPEAKER_01]: You can, again, pick another book. 30:06.732 --> 30:10.681 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a red clear libardo's latest, so I can't speak to that one, and that could be a great comp. 30:10.701 --> 30:11.923 [SPEAKER_01]: Y'all, can you red clear libardo's? 30:12.364 --> 30:15.531 [SPEAKER_02]: It's such a, like, everyone should read KL and Bob. 30:15.511 --> 30:22.804 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the first book, even Reese with this being chose her first book, I think, like three years off the camera. 30:22.824 --> 30:25.108 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, yeah, second one, right? 30:25.148 --> 30:26.450 [SPEAKER_01]: Same as it ever was. 30:26.510 --> 30:28.674 [SPEAKER_01]: Same as it ever was, yeah, second one. 30:28.694 --> 30:30.177 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I haven't read the second book. 30:30.197 --> 30:38.512 [SPEAKER_01]: All this to say, I think the comps could use a teensy bit of work, but obviously, thank you for choosing a great client book when we're in the fiercest creatures as a great book about men being taken down. 30:38.592 --> 30:39.814 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, for that. 30:40.503 --> 30:43.647 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is a juicy plot, like I love this. 30:43.748 --> 30:48.034 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very, I'm very interested in this book and I wouldn't, you know, we'll get to the pages later. 30:48.154 --> 30:49.816 [SPEAKER_01]: I totally would request this. 30:50.076 --> 30:55.124 [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't, it would definitely be something that would be on my radar to get to my kiddo as fast as I could and read it. 30:55.584 --> 31:04.417 [SPEAKER_01]: The thing that I think where it breaks down, you know, if there's some room for improvement here was the life melody had created, had been built on an unforgivable life. 31:04.437 --> 31:06.139 [SPEAKER_01]: That's too vague. 31:06.372 --> 31:13.834 [SPEAKER_01]: This could be anything from her upbringing as it is blue, but as they thought to, she had an affair, one of the children isn't. 31:14.641 --> 31:17.344 [SPEAKER_01]: Billy's like for our minds just going in so many places. 31:17.424 --> 31:27.156 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to nail this out especially because you are so good at telling us all the juicy stuff earlier on like the daughter struggling to give up her ambitions for fiancee, the son dropping out of college. 31:27.176 --> 31:33.123 [SPEAKER_01]: So the fact that you drop all of that information, you don't tell us what Melodies big lies. 31:33.443 --> 31:34.485 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a little bit confused by that. 31:34.625 --> 31:37.408 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, it probably something to do with the climax and you're trying to save us. 31:38.401 --> 31:49.881 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, wonder, and this is an example, I always say this, but I love when authors around the show because I get to ask them what the thing is, some because I do want to know what this thing is, but other than that, it's really strong, I would totally request the page. 31:49.901 --> 31:51.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Some calling, so that's a good sign. 31:51.665 --> 31:53.127 [SPEAKER_02]: It's doing its job. 31:53.147 --> 31:55.131 [SPEAKER_02]: CC, would you request the pages? 31:55.211 --> 31:56.393 [SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts? 31:56.795 --> 31:57.576 [SPEAKER_03]: I would. 31:57.596 --> 31:59.458 [SPEAKER_03]: I really liked the career letter. 31:59.679 --> 32:00.520 [SPEAKER_03]: It was really strong. 32:00.760 --> 32:06.307 [SPEAKER_03]: The author didn't an amazing job by putting the hook really off top. 32:06.327 --> 32:11.654 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what happens when a long running affair unravels the finally orchestrated lives of an ascending political family. 32:11.875 --> 32:16.761 [SPEAKER_03]: It gives you that ensemble cast feel that a multi-POV novel needs. 32:17.112 --> 32:19.214 [SPEAKER_03]: is really, really smart. 32:19.234 --> 32:20.515 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's an excellent query layer. 32:21.035 --> 32:21.356 [SPEAKER_02]: Excellent. 32:21.616 --> 32:22.136 [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful. 32:22.397 --> 32:24.218 [SPEAKER_02]: OK, well, we don't have more to say on that. 32:24.258 --> 32:25.800 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to move on to the pages. 32:26.020 --> 32:27.061 [SPEAKER_02]: Kali, what's in them? 32:28.342 --> 32:28.742 [SPEAKER_01]: All right. 32:28.822 --> 32:32.085 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a prologue that is not a prologue, but we know it's a prologue. 32:32.145 --> 32:35.188 [SPEAKER_01]: We start with Iris, who is the other woman. 32:35.408 --> 32:40.713 [SPEAKER_01]: It starts in her point of view where there's a line that says, Iris Milton knew she was the villain of the story. 32:41.153 --> 32:45.297 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just explains how her and the male character 32:46.019 --> 32:48.883 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he came into the diner that she served him. 32:48.924 --> 32:50.326 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not super clear. 32:50.386 --> 32:57.697 [SPEAKER_01]: This probably can be argued, but it sounds like he paid for an apartment for her a car. 32:57.998 --> 33:02.064 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it seems like they meet, he continues to hang out with her. 33:02.084 --> 33:06.471 [SPEAKER_01]: We know from the query letter, there's a baby on the way, but it sounds like he bought her an apartment. 33:06.491 --> 33:09.576 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's just a one page, kind of let's call it a first chapter or a prologue. 33:10.217 --> 33:14.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, then we move to Melody, who is the wife. 33:14.774 --> 33:28.574 [SPEAKER_01]: And we have a time stamp on that, which is May, and we are getting ready for them to do a photo shoot for the Washington Post to kind of, you know, set their family up for the next stage in the husband's political career. 33:28.614 --> 33:31.418 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody is there. 33:31.478 --> 33:43.836 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not really getting along. 33:44.120 --> 33:47.124 [SPEAKER_01]: they get the picture done and then they kind of move on. 33:47.184 --> 33:52.811 [SPEAKER_01]: Then the husband goes into his office with one of their young assistants. 33:52.831 --> 33:59.299 [SPEAKER_01]: The wife then looks at her text messages and she has messages from the same unknown number, the same message. 33:59.359 --> 34:00.340 [SPEAKER_01]: She deleted three times. 34:00.400 --> 34:01.141 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to talk. 34:01.181 --> 34:02.122 [SPEAKER_01]: I know what Billy did. 34:02.723 --> 34:11.114 [SPEAKER_01]: And she's kind of like, we have security issues all the time, but like this message keeps getting through and then she starts to think about the message. 34:11.134 --> 34:13.857 [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting. 34:14.495 --> 34:15.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, right. 34:15.459 --> 34:18.551 [SPEAKER_01]: So I, I really like the sneaky prologue. 34:18.571 --> 34:20.639 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is the second time I've said that recently. 34:20.659 --> 34:22.908 [SPEAKER_01]: The sneaky prologues are going to be over. 34:23.109 --> 34:24.876 [SPEAKER_01]: I like it because 34:25.531 --> 34:26.572 [SPEAKER_01]: I like the balance. 34:26.752 --> 34:29.515 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Iris Milton knew she was the villain of the story. 34:30.216 --> 34:34.400 [SPEAKER_01]: She kind of explains a little bit, but it's not in that info dive dumpy kind of way. 34:34.460 --> 34:37.002 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, he wore an expensive suit, even she could tell that. 34:37.362 --> 34:40.365 [SPEAKER_01]: His weight, shirt was still crisp despite the late hour. 34:40.466 --> 34:43.589 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't belong there in mostly empty dining or the wrong part of town. 34:43.969 --> 34:47.072 [SPEAKER_01]: He belonged in Georgetown, DuPont, Gu White House. 34:47.092 --> 34:48.533 [SPEAKER_01]: What great line there, right? 34:48.553 --> 34:55.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I love a long sentence, then like a punchy like staccato, like Georgetown, DuPont, the White House. 34:56.041 --> 34:57.282 [SPEAKER_01]: so I thought that was really well done. 34:57.603 --> 35:00.666 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just very self-aware, and I just really enjoyed that. 35:01.107 --> 35:08.815 [SPEAKER_01]: It really set me up for, and I think the thing that this does really well is the sympathy for the other woman that does this really, really well, right? 35:08.855 --> 35:10.657 [SPEAKER_01]: Right away, we're introduced to her first. 35:10.837 --> 35:20.428 [SPEAKER_01]: The other woman first, clearly of lesser means, he comes in, you know, she maybe doesn't ask for whatever, he inserts himself upon her and her, 35:20.864 --> 35:34.876 [SPEAKER_01]: workplace comes to visit her at work right like so we understand he's pursuing her so the sympathy for the other woman here is incredible then we go to malady the wife and this is the part where It's just completely robotic. 35:35.097 --> 35:40.088 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the very much the like step for wife thing where she's just going through the motions of like 35:40.270 --> 35:51.806 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the banisters are all wiped out and the cleaners came and everything's perfect and the frames are with the family pictures are all lined up, you know, just that very classic step-fruity things, very robotic. 35:51.826 --> 35:53.829 [SPEAKER_01]: We are not on her side, right? 35:53.889 --> 36:03.183 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the prologue with the kind of loose, you know, these two just stumbled into each other's lives makes you think, okay, well, maybe those two are meant to be. 36:03.203 --> 36:06.467 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you meet the wife where it's like, it's all buttoned up, did, did, did, did. 36:06.507 --> 36:09.872 [SPEAKER_01]: She's clearly the one keeping the wheels on the bus 36:10.443 --> 36:20.892 [SPEAKER_01]: countless millions of women do across the globe to just keep a family economy running in terms of like getting everybody where they need to go the labor that she puts in. 36:21.260 --> 36:23.724 [SPEAKER_01]: for creating this public image for the family. 36:24.125 --> 36:25.226 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're not on her side. 36:25.287 --> 36:32.619 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not very sympathetic to her forcing her children and her family into this political picture, which, again, is for the husband. 36:33.179 --> 36:38.027 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes it really like, you know, she is so second-final to him, right? 36:38.047 --> 36:40.872 [SPEAKER_01]: Where we know, she's clearly trying to do everything behind the scenes too. 36:40.852 --> 36:43.335 [SPEAKER_01]: make this a sentient possible. 36:43.935 --> 36:44.916 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's all very smart. 36:45.077 --> 36:49.041 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very smart, you know, obviously I'm pointing out things that I could see, but it's done very well. 36:49.261 --> 36:57.070 [SPEAKER_01]: And the only thing that I struggled with a little bit is we don't have a super clear timestamp on all of this. 36:57.610 --> 37:00.954 [SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to know it's contemporary per the query letter. 37:00.994 --> 37:06.640 [SPEAKER_01]: It was called contemporary fiction. 37:06.923 --> 37:26.704 [SPEAKER_01]: the positionality of this within the larger framework of politics and, you know, there's just so much going on in the world, then obviously this is fiction, but this is to imagine to be, you know, in North Carolina, like we know where this is meant to be in the United States and yet, you know, would they mention things like Clinton, would they mention things like 37:26.954 --> 37:31.219 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this power dynamic within the political system. 37:31.239 --> 37:42.772 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wondering how self-aware the novel is going to be a little bit, because I found the piece where there's a paragraph that says, once that was cleared out, she felt the emptiness acutely, even though Mark was upstairs and Billy was in an office, Mark is the son. 37:42.792 --> 37:43.493 [SPEAKER_01]: There, but not there. 37:43.553 --> 37:47.538 [SPEAKER_01]: The story of their marriage recently, she knew the part she was expected to play. 37:47.578 --> 37:51.122 [SPEAKER_01]: The part she signed up for all those years ago, Billy's own mother sat her down. 37:51.355 --> 37:53.099 [SPEAKER_01]: and told her exactly what she was going to do. 37:53.179 --> 37:57.007 [SPEAKER_01]: Doning, mother, beautiful wife, devoted volunteer for now her kids were grown and out of the house. 37:57.388 --> 38:00.856 [SPEAKER_01]: Her husband spent more time in DC than he did there at home. 38:00.936 --> 38:03.361 [SPEAKER_01]: When he was there, he spent most of his time holding up in his office. 38:03.402 --> 38:05.466 [SPEAKER_01]: This is left in the same bed, but they barely touched. 38:05.513 --> 38:07.197 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't feel unique. 38:07.598 --> 38:08.741 [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, it's very sad. 38:08.961 --> 38:11.166 [SPEAKER_01]: It also makes me think about American wife, right? 38:11.186 --> 38:23.094 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the Curtis Sittenfeld novel, American wife, which when I'm talking about CC's nodding, this makes me think about American wife, which that novel probably came out 20 years ago, 15 to 20 years ago, it is not a new novel by any means. 38:23.616 --> 38:24.197 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 38:24.869 --> 38:35.580 [SPEAKER_01]: that felt super dated to me, but I was just wondering how commercial is this going to be in the sense of how much is is there going to be commentary on our contemporary political system? 38:35.860 --> 38:38.187 [SPEAKER_01]: The answer could be nothing, but I just curious. 38:39.668 --> 38:42.551 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like they didn't date it on purpose because let's be honest. 38:42.571 --> 38:46.914 [SPEAKER_02]: From date to day, current political, I mean, you know what I'm saying? 38:46.954 --> 38:54.701 [SPEAKER_02]: Half the time you come make this shut up and if people are trying to write this for TV 10 years ago or 15 years ago, yeah, people are going as totally implausible. 38:54.741 --> 39:00.546 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, yeah, this person's staying away from this on purpose because of because of that. 39:00.687 --> 39:01.207 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 39:01.427 --> 39:09.034 [SPEAKER_01]: And that makes me think of scandal, like this like slightly romanticized version of what politics was in the Obama era, right? 39:09.368 --> 39:14.262 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we don't have to go down that deep deep rabbit hole, but those were some thoughts I have. 39:14.282 --> 39:15.406 [SPEAKER_02]: I miss that brand suit. 39:15.767 --> 39:16.429 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, CC. 39:16.649 --> 39:16.910 [SPEAKER_02]: Go. 39:18.434 --> 39:21.162 [SPEAKER_03]: I loved the sneaky prologue. 39:21.363 --> 39:22.787 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm angry at the sneaky prologue. 39:23.425 --> 39:26.310 [SPEAKER_03]: The first line is a finger, like it's so good. 39:26.771 --> 39:32.481 [SPEAKER_03]: And the way the author moves between show and tell is brilliant. 39:33.322 --> 39:39.493 [SPEAKER_03]: The way the author compresses time zooming in and zooming out is genius. 39:39.473 --> 39:46.102 [SPEAKER_03]: I need all our sub-stacks of words if you subscribe to our sub-stack and you do not look at this query letter and study. 39:46.543 --> 39:50.569 [SPEAKER_03]: This prologue, meticulously you are wasting your money, just saying. 39:50.589 --> 39:52.331 [SPEAKER_03]: It is absolutely genius. 39:52.391 --> 39:55.495 [SPEAKER_03]: She does so much with such a tight word count. 39:55.575 --> 39:56.677 [SPEAKER_03]: What is the word count? 39:56.697 --> 39:57.638 [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, hold on. 39:57.698 --> 40:00.342 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to look this up. 40:00.362 --> 40:01.684 [SPEAKER_03]: 322 words. 40:02.710 --> 40:03.691 [SPEAKER_03]: just for the prologue. 40:03.871 --> 40:06.154 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's that's so short, right? 40:06.174 --> 40:13.063 [SPEAKER_03]: 322 words and she, she goes through their love story and the bomb that dropped in their lives. 40:13.083 --> 40:19.852 [SPEAKER_03]: Of course she's inspecified with the bomb but we know, you know, and it has a opinion, it has a point of view, it has perspective. 40:19.892 --> 40:22.716 [SPEAKER_03]: It is incredibly well written like all the plus. 40:22.936 --> 40:23.897 [SPEAKER_03]: Chapter one's not working. 40:24.118 --> 40:25.459 [SPEAKER_03]: The melody chapter's not working. 40:25.479 --> 40:26.040 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm here's a deal. 40:26.621 --> 40:27.742 [SPEAKER_03]: There's two possibilities for this. 40:27.802 --> 40:29.605 [SPEAKER_03]: Possibility number one, CC problem. 40:29.865 --> 40:32.228 [SPEAKER_03]: CC needs messy, CC needs more depth, 40:32.208 --> 40:35.372 [SPEAKER_03]: CC needs psychological acuity, CC talks about a cell in the third person. 40:35.832 --> 40:37.294 [SPEAKER_03]: Fine, if that's it, ignore me. 40:37.854 --> 40:54.553 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you are vision for this, is something that's a bit more upmarket, something with more teeth, a story that will, you know, have potential for book clubs and start conversations that I think the melody chapter, I wonder if this is something that happens in dual POV novels. 40:55.310 --> 41:00.879 [SPEAKER_03]: The author wants us to sympathize with one character more, like one character more, in print on one character more. 41:00.999 --> 41:02.481 [SPEAKER_03]: So she holds back on the other one. 41:03.363 --> 41:05.686 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll think, yay, that doesn't work. 41:05.706 --> 41:08.711 [SPEAKER_03]: I need to be fascinated by both POVs. 41:09.232 --> 41:11.716 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I will probably root for one more than the other. 41:11.756 --> 41:12.677 [SPEAKER_03]: This is normal. 41:13.163 --> 41:14.686 [SPEAKER_03]: but I ain't we fascinated by both. 41:14.886 --> 41:17.670 [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think you're holding back on the Melody Chapter. 41:17.911 --> 41:24.041 [SPEAKER_03]: There are so many instances where there's opportunity for depth, opportunity for messiness, opportunity for curiosity seeds. 41:24.081 --> 41:25.343 [SPEAKER_03]: There are no curiosity seeds. 41:25.363 --> 41:27.166 [SPEAKER_03]: Like the text message, it's not working. 41:27.487 --> 41:32.455 [SPEAKER_03]: I also don't like the fact that she decides for reasons she cannot explain. 41:32.435 --> 41:34.218 [SPEAKER_03]: to keep the message this time. 41:34.818 --> 41:35.960 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it feels forced. 41:36.160 --> 41:40.326 [SPEAKER_03]: There's the scene where the husband, the scene, but there's a couple of lines. 41:40.527 --> 41:41.027 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to read it. 41:41.047 --> 41:45.594 [SPEAKER_03]: The girl glanced up at Billy with a smile and a blush, Mell's lips tightened into a flat line. 41:45.694 --> 41:47.777 [SPEAKER_03]: She was no longer surprised, but it's still hurt. 41:48.558 --> 41:56.029 [SPEAKER_03]: If you go deeper in that moment, you could potentially uncover messiness and power dynamics. 41:56.347 --> 42:02.271 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to understand her better and I want to be fascinated by her and I'm not. 42:02.432 --> 42:02.914 [SPEAKER_03]: So, 42:03.839 --> 42:11.788 [SPEAKER_03]: If I had gotten this as a submission, I probably still would have requested the full to see if all the iris chapters are really, really strong. 42:11.848 --> 42:16.272 [SPEAKER_03]: And if the melody chapters get better, because maybe there would be like a vision that I could talk to the author about. 42:17.153 --> 42:25.362 [SPEAKER_03]: But if all of the book or melody, I'd be like not not interested at all, which is a shame, because clearly you have the writing chops to do it. 42:25.422 --> 42:29.847 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think the lesson here for anyone listening is, you cannot hold back. 42:29.827 --> 42:34.573 [SPEAKER_03]: like holding back is just not something you can do, like not in this economy, you know? 42:34.893 --> 42:35.854 [SPEAKER_01]: Not in this industry. 42:35.874 --> 42:40.760 [SPEAKER_01]: We get at with that idea of like what is, what are we trying to say with this book? 42:40.780 --> 42:43.523 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I agree with you, like it has such a market more potential. 42:43.543 --> 42:47.849 [SPEAKER_01]: And if we don't maximize that with melody, that's the problem. 42:47.869 --> 42:59.142 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it has to be for the both points of you, unless the single POV story, right, unless it's just irises, but that won't work in terms of us seeing the inside of the family. 42:59.358 --> 43:12.234 [SPEAKER_03]: Emily Giffin has a novel called Heart of the Matter, I believe, in which you do get three points of you, the wife, the husband, and the other woman, and it's so messy and you feel sympathy for everyone. 43:12.294 --> 43:16.179 [SPEAKER_03]: Not so much the man, but probably most people still did. 43:16.379 --> 43:21.606 [SPEAKER_03]: I read this and yes, I feel for Iris, but it's not that I don't feel, it's not that I am against Melody or not really for Melody. 43:21.646 --> 43:23.188 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not interested in Melody. 43:23.590 --> 43:28.097 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I, I want to love both of these women and be really might of this guy. 43:28.278 --> 43:28.919 [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I want. 43:28.939 --> 43:33.105 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what women all across the world are going to want when they've been to this book, right? 43:33.526 --> 43:34.548 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's blame them in. 43:34.688 --> 43:39.135 [SPEAKER_03]: But right now you're just holding back on Melody and please don't, that's my request. 43:39.908 --> 43:40.409 [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful. 43:40.629 --> 43:43.773 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Colin and CC for your excellent insights. 43:44.054 --> 43:47.579 [SPEAKER_02]: As ever, we'll be back in two weeks with another books for talks. 43:47.739 --> 43:54.929 [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to submit, go to the show about writing, go to the books for talks page and you can submit your work there. 43:55.871 --> 43:56.511 [SPEAKER_02]: Have a good week. 43:56.852 --> 43:57.613 [SPEAKER_02]: Bye everyone. 44:00.479 --> 44:04.807 [SPEAKER_02]: CC Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. 44:05.268 --> 44:13.003 [SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com. 44:13.664 --> 44:18.032 [SPEAKER_02]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency. 44:18.012 --> 44:35.987 [SPEAKER_02]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Kali on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.