[SPEAKER_00]: All the things I owned, weren't just not making me happy, but all the things I owned, were actually taking me away from the very thing that did bring me happiness in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And not just happiness, but meeting and joy and purpose and significance.
[SPEAKER_00]: and fulfillment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Marriage of the God podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today's episode, I am speaking with Joshua Becker, the author of Uncluttered Faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is a well-known minimalist.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a believer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love's God and his desires that more people would understand the beauty and the power of owning less and enjoying more of the things that make you happy, like family your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: getting out of debt.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of these things that I totally agree with and believe in, it was very convicting conversation for me in my life, just I want to downsize a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're one of those people that you have a lot of stuff in your life, you just feel like it's constantly taking your energy time, resources, and you're just trying to find a way to unclutter, to get focus, which is his whole point in this conversation is
[SPEAKER_01]: that getting rid of things that we don't need.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or things that someone else can use and do it does need, it helps us have that energy and time and resources back to refocus on what's most important in our life.
[SPEAKER_01]: The things that actually makes us happy, the things that draws us closer to Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this conversation is really important, really encouraging, and I hope you enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get into the conversation, I just want to invite you as usual, hit that like button, subscribe to our show, so you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you'd like to support this show and also support your marriage, if it's shopped on marriage after god.com, pick up one of our resources, our prayer books, our devotionals, we wrote those books for you to bless you in your marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy this conversation with Joshua Becker, the author of Uncluttered Faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: Joshua Becker, welcome to the marriage after god podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm super happy to have you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you are very kind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love doing interviews.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get an awesome opportunity to, that not many people have to meet lots of really cool people are doing really cool things and encouraging people in very different ways than me and my wife and courage people, but being able to come together and have these conversations with this technology is just incredible to be able to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited to chat with you about your new book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uncoded faith and how it can be a blessing to us and our marriages and our families But I'd love for you to first just start with sharing with my audience who you are What you do about your family marriage children all the things by a graphical
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you ever feel like the older you get the harder it gets to answer that question in a in a short way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like Don't be short when I was 20.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went to high school here, and now I'm in college here, and 51 and gosh lived a lot of life between now and then yeah real quick so
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm 51 married 26 years of living in Yoria, Arizona.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just outside Phoenix.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have two kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: My son Salem is 23.
[SPEAKER_00]: My daughter Alexa is 19.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm originally from the Upper Midwest, South Dakota, is where I grew up in the high school in North Dakota and college in Nebraska.
[SPEAKER_00]: After graduating college, I was a pastor for 15 years in the Christian and missionary alliance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was introduced to minimalism by my neighbor 17 years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started a blog.
[SPEAKER_00]: called becomingminimalist.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's same weekend, the blog grew and grew and grew.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to the point where I couldn't both pastor and run the website and the speaking that came with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so 13 years ago, began full-time writing, speaking.
[SPEAKER_00]: I say my passion is to inspire people to own less so that they can live more.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome, but very different though from the current world view of you're going to own nothing and be happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a biblical view that you're trying to encourage people with is choice that we're that we're looking at our lives in a very spiritual way and looking at the things in our lives and you come to, you come to it from a very biblical point of view which I love
[SPEAKER_01]: So you've been married 26 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two kids all there.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was your youngest 17?
[SPEAKER_01]: 17.
[SPEAKER_01]: 19.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now all adults.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: My oldest is just turned 13.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I barely just got into the teen years with my six kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've got a journey ahead of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm earlier in my story like you said you've done so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm just getting started, but we've also done.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is your wife just as she's got to be into minimalism just as much as you are, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kinda hard to have halfway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's what certainly makes it a lot more difficult, um, if, if halfway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, um, Yeah, she is on board with owning less.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I, I was introduced to it, told her about it and she was on board.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always say if I wanted to get rid of 80% of our stuff, she wanted to get rid of 50% of our stuff and so.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: like the first 50% went really well and then after that it became about compromise and learning how to navigate that but I always think that's probably what all marriages like you can be on the same page but the very
[SPEAKER_00]: practical ways that it that it plays out, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we both want to be involved in church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, someone wants to be there three times a week and someone wants to be there once a week or twice a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to raise our kids in a certain way, but still when do we discipline and when do we not?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm the same page, but the, you know, specifics take conversation and learning from one another and humility, I hope.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm sure it's a journey, you know, you start at one place and it's a process and I'm sure there's some people that just go all in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have like when it comes to like minimalism that I feel like a lot of people especially nowadays with social media and with movies and everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have everything in our fingertips too much actually just in these little devices in our pockets.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've been conditioned and trained to buy the next thing, you know, specifically with iPhones and devices.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they have planned up lessons that, you know, you need to upgrade the 16 and then this 17 is going to be like 200th, you know, we're going to keep getting the next one and next one.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like our generation is we're feeling the effects of it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in some ways and a lot of us, and I'm sure you've seen this,
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a bit of this like desire to have less to do less to consume less.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm seeing it all over social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just people wanting to get the ranch, you know, have their little hobby farm, and get out and have no TVs and have no...
[SPEAKER_01]: things like what is what do you feel because like I've on one point you're talking about this in a in a very spiritual aspect of like trying to grow closer in our relationship to God by looking at our things in a better way and in more honest way in a more real way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what do you think's pushing some of this that you were seeing in just the general consensus of society and the younger generations of people trying to get out of Consumerism and move away from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's what's what's animating that and people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know if there's any historical track record that it will continue necessarily if I put it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so a few things come to mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number one, I forget where the phrase came from.
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone coined the phrase, peak consumerism.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was one of the folks that Ikea actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've reached a point of peak consumerism in the world today.
[SPEAKER_00]: where I mean when you think about it is much stuff as we own today like never in human history have human beings owned as much stuff as we do as we do today and the the scale of increase has been astronomical.
[SPEAKER_00]: American homes today are three times as big as they were 50 years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: We still over 11% of us rents off-site storage, average American home as 300,000 items inside of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to become more accessible and more affordable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of this really since, like, the end of World War II is really when consumers have started to take off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Industrial Revolution and the...
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're going to work with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And doing come homes and the way marketing happened and the way the US economy was built.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's certainly a point where we just have more stuff than we've ever had before.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at some point, you would hope that we're going to start to realize it's not making us any happier and push back against it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think technology makes minimalism easier than it ever has before.
[SPEAKER_00]: for all the the evils of technology and cell phones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I was thinking my cell phone is like a little Mary Poppins handbag.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can have movies and music and phones and credit cards and gift cards and phones.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everything can be inside this one little square box and so I think that makes it a little bit easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: The birth of the sharing economy, sharing cars and sharing homes.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: sharing things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's been push for environmental concern over the years, what is, which is driven some people in that direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that in American's own $1.1 trillion in credit card debt, just passed $1 trillion for the first time ever last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's majority is not a consumer debt.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not even.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, that's just yeah, that's just credit card debt.
[SPEAKER_00]: One hand on trillion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think a lot of those factors into the growth of minimalism and renewed interest in it for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a part of, like I said, I'm gonna just be honest, I'm far from minimalist, I look at my life all the time and I'm like, I have too much stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a friend in my garage this morning and he's like, this is what people use three car grudges for.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, yes, it's got junk in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to clear it out so I can put my card in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I get that, but there's a part of me that's,
[SPEAKER_01]: very much so like I look around and I'm I'm like I just need to get rid of this stuff like where can I donate it who can I give it to you because I have the stuff just sitting around it's not being used ever but there's something deep inside of me that's like there's a fear of needing it at some point.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do I have that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is it so hard for me to
[SPEAKER_01]: Just get a trash bag or get a truck and just fill it and drop it off at the goodwill You know what what makes it so difficult to do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think it is?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know it's a weird thing because I do like sometimes I can do it and then sometimes I'm just like I'll I'll I'll deal with it later Yeah, maybe at the timing thing or just not a prioritization.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe so in so in
[SPEAKER_00]: John, Luke chapter 3 is this amazing story, go look it up, John the Baptist, his job is to prepare the nation of Israel for Jesus, like the Messiah's coming, like get ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: In Luke chapter 3, the people, the people finally believe him as kind of what I picture this moment and Luke 3 verse 10, they go out into the desert and they find John the Baptist and they say, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: What should we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we have to do to get ready for the Messiah?
[SPEAKER_00]: We believe you something amazing is going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And John says to them, anyone who has two tunics should give away one, anyone who has extra food, away their extra food.
[SPEAKER_00]: The tax collectors come and they say, what do we need to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, don't collect any more taxes than you need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the soldiers come and the soldiers come and they say, what do we have to do to get ready for Jesus?
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, don't extort money, don't accuse people falsely, be content with what you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: the end of the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that is the end of his instructions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking to myself, if I was John the Baptist and I had this one moment in time to fulfill my purpose, prepare Israel for Jesus.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're asking me, what do we do to get ready for Jesus?
[SPEAKER_00]: What would I tell them?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would probably have said,
[SPEAKER_00]: go study the Old Testament prophecies, go pray, go spend time in the temple, write these spiritual things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But no, John says, get rid of the physical possessions that you don't need.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would that be his instruction?
[SPEAKER_00]: We found minimalism 17 years ago and started taking vanloads of things to goodwill.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got rid of about 60, 70% of our stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I took a vanload of thing to goodwill.
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt great.
[SPEAKER_00]: A second vanload of stuff to goodwill.
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: By about the third vanload of things that I started taking to goodwill.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started to ask myself some really difficult questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Starting with why in the world did I have three van loads of things in my house that I didn't need to have?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, really, when you ask the question, why do we keep stuff that we don't need?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or even why do we buy stuff we don't need in the first place?
[SPEAKER_01]: And is most likely garbage because the nothing's made well anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, man, I think once you start wrestling with that question, which is why I legitimately ask you, like, when you start wrestling with that question,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we like what we find.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that we find that we're a little more selfish than we thought, a little more greedy than we thought, we're trying to impress people with the things that we have, or a little more worried about the future, then we should be, we're trying to prove our success by the things that we own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we really are looking for happiness in the things that we buy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think John's story
[SPEAKER_00]: is, hey, as you own less, as you take these steps, you will discover that you are probably a little more attached to the world than you ever thought you were than the only way you can learn those things about yourself is to begin taking these steps to actually live out,
[SPEAKER_00]: what Jesus called us to do concerning money and possessions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that's a long answer to your question, and I think it looks different for everybody, but I think one of the spiritual benefits that comes into our lives as we intentionally own less is we start coming face to face with some of the unhealthy motivation that can tell us to collect and accumulate more and more of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well tell me about your journey 17 years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said you had a neighbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was that?
[SPEAKER_01]: What happened there?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what turned you onto this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that you said in your book you talked about some of the pithinies you had and where these pithinies you had back then and 17 years go with your neighbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure that beginning of that journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so we live in Arizona now, but we are living in Vermont at the time, which could not be any more different Vermont and Arizona.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always think whether it's like the least of the differences between the two states.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so my son stay almost five.
[SPEAKER_00]: My daughter, Lexus, was two.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a pastor at the time, it was going to be this spring Memorial weekend actually in May.
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife and I woke up on Saturday to do our spring cleaning for the after the winter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I offered to clean out the garage, thought for sure my five-year-old son would enjoy the project with his dad, but that lasted about 30 seconds until he saw his wiffle ball and wiffle ball that and he runs in the backyard to play asking me to come pitch to him and I said I can't I need to clean out the garage.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm in the garage pulling everything out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to hose it all down hours later.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm working on the same garage.
[SPEAKER_00]: My son's running up about every 20 minutes asking if I'll come play catch if I'm ready if I'm done and just typical parent like one more minute one more minute and almost done let me finish up what I'm doing here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, my neighbor, June, she's in her 80s, and she's noticing what was happening on my side of the hedge.
[SPEAKER_00]: At one point, we walk past each other and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I complain a little bit about how much had gone into my project.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she says, you know, that's why my daughter is a minimalist.
[SPEAKER_00]: She keeps telling me I don't need to own all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I stood speechless for a moment as if,
[SPEAKER_00]: I had never heard of the idea before, which I had never, I hadn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I remember looking at my driveway, and here's this pile of dirty dusty stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would have said, just like anyone else, that my possessions aren't making me happy, I'm not looking for happiness and the things that I buy.
[SPEAKER_00]: But out of the corner of my eye, I saw my five-year-old son swinging alone on the swing set in the backyard where he had been all morning long.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I suddenly realized that all the things I owned weren't just not making me happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: but all the things I own were actually taking me away from the very thing that did bring me happiness in life and not just happiness but meeting and joy and purpose and significance and fulfillment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one thing to say, our possessions aren't making us happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something very different the moment we realize they might actually be distracting us from the very things that you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is what started our journey and that's what started the process for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a that's a huge epiphany and it's it's convicting me because it's exactly true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's things that I think all of us We we recognize it like you said like yeah, that doesn't make me happy and I wish I didn't have to deal with that And think of my truck At some points gonna need work and money and time and it's all the things, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm the things that are just sitting on the shelf in the shop a garage things that get in the way
[SPEAKER_01]: I tend to avoid dealing with them anyway, to make sure I'm focusing on things that make me happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then it's just, they're messy, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what was the next step in your journey, you realize this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of people are going to realize truths.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a, this is a big deal in everyone's lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: We, I heard something a long time ago about,
[SPEAKER_01]: People not changing, because if you look at a chair that has four legs, the change takes place when that chair is solid and it's got four legs, but often we get one leg to, you know, we hear this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a really good point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we just move on with our life and that one leg doesn't hold up and so no change actually ever happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: What were the other legs in the stool?
[SPEAKER_01]: of this, you know, was it that very moment that all four legs are boom and you're like, this is a solid foundation I'm doing this direction or where there are other things that came up to help solidify this, this change in your, the way you perceived your things and actually taking steps towards changing that in your own life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, good question, there were not any other conversations or things that I read or noticed or saw.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was literally I was convinced in that moment and starting that evening, I cleaned everything out of our cars that didn't need to be there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it started right away in that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I can look back and I can see,
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say streams of discontent, they say discontent is the greatest seat of change in our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I can look back and I can say, hey, there were some things that I knew wasn't quite right in the way that life was going.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just couldn't see the way out of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number one, I was always a little discontented with our finances.
[SPEAKER_00]: which over 70% of Americans have financial related stress, so I wasn't alone in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it had been 10 plus years of marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had had three pretty significant pay increases.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet for some reason, we were never able to get ahead financially.
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have a lot of consumer debt, but it just seemed like every pay increase.
[SPEAKER_00]: we should have been able to get ahead financially, but it's just like the more money came in, the more money went out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was a little discontented with that, but more than that, even with my money, not just how much we were spending, but how much,
[SPEAKER_00]: where we were spending our money or who I was spending my money on, I should say, like we were tithing, we were giving 10%, but, man, I would read what the Bible has to say about taking care of the poor, about being generous, about giving away the things that we had, and I knew I wasn't living up to what I read, God was calling us to, and
[SPEAKER_00]: I just couldn't figure out a way to get there, like given away 10%, or barely getting by every single month.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that even look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I go about living that out?
[SPEAKER_00]: So certainly the financial related discontent led up to that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then the other one just like the focus on my life's energy is the way I say it and uh, I wouldn't have been able to say it had not been for that conversation with my neighbor and I'm like I can't believe I just wasted a whole morning clean out my garage at the expensive spending time with my son.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was things already in your life that were building up inside of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Questions you had that you didn't necessarily have vocalized, but no or have answers to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when you hear this statement about the things that are keeping you from playing catch with your son in the backyard or pushing him on the swing or with your wife on the swing, like just time you could have spent,
[SPEAKER_01]: with them going for a walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the the last leg of the stool that just convinced you if like this is this is the direction I'm going to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you there's a lot of
[SPEAKER_01]: I should have said this, as a man, there's a lot of things that were shown on social media in life about what it takes to be successful, what it takes to be like, you know, getting up exercise, health, finances, business, marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's all of these things that we need to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's this checklist that almost no one can accomplish ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we look at this as not just another one of those things of like here's how you can, you know, crush life and here's a, here's another weight to put on your shoulder of, you know, not having too much things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just saying this out of an honest question of, I already struggle as a man with all of the things that I feel are expectations on my own life and being able to accomplish all of them and.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that's not your intent.
[SPEAKER_01]: how can we position this in our hearts in our minds and just take evaluation of our own life and see this as something is not an extra weight or another thing that needs to be accomplished or you know, so that I can have a status as a man, you know, as a leader of my home.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't make sense, I'm not, I don't feel like I'm explaining it very well, but well, you know, if I understand the question
[SPEAKER_00]: The answer is that owning less isn't a burden that we add to our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is the freeing of a weight from our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is about owning less so that I can free up.
[SPEAKER_00]: money, and time, and energy, and mental capacity, and my decision making, and so that I can begin directing my life towards
[SPEAKER_00]: towards health, towards making a difference in the world, towards being a better husband, being a better father, being a better follower of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit like when you go for a hike, like carrying a heavy backpack, means you can only go so far because you're carrying so much weight.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the less you're carrying, the further you can go, the more you enjoy the more you enjoy the journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: the freer you feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I've never thought of minimalism as another thing that I need to do instead I've always seen it as clearing the burden from my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that I can go be the best version of myself and go accomplish those things that actually bring meaning and fulfillment and joy.
[SPEAKER_00]: If that, you know, that's, if I understood your question, yeah, that's how I would answer it.
[SPEAKER_01]: removing burdens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, there's these things that's already there that adds a weight, takes time, energy finances, resources, thought-cali, you know, brain calories, because there's only things that are always sitting back there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a removal of things, it's a clearing out, it's a cleaning essentially.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in many ways, it's about redefining what success looks like.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, because the world will tell you success looks like the bigger house and the nicer car and more tools and more money in your bank out, whatever it would be about the version of success that the world tells us and not just tells us, but very subtly convinces us to
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is about redefining what success even looks like and saying no, it's not about all of those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Success is becoming who Jesus wants me to become accomplishing the good work that he prepared in advance for me to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Overcoming the pursuit of the world so that I can find success where I can actually be found.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the biblical direction that you found that have helped define this for you so that we can look at this also.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because you're just seeing a bunch of the scriptures that you use in there, often we explain them away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we look at them differently and we say, oh, well, that doesn't mean this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it shares some of the biblical background
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll even, the story goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like I said, I've passed it for 15 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: It took my non-believing neighbor to introduce me to minimalism.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm blogging.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm journaling every time I notice a benefit in my life of owning less.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would write a short article about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And very easy, like, easier to clean.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, I was saving money.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was,
[SPEAKER_00]: discovering contentment and gratitude and generosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even things like the less I owned, the higher quality things, I could own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if I didn't have to have 20 pairs of pants in my closet, I could just own three or four that fit me well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if it lasts longer than unbelievable, comparing myself less with other people, I'd become a better example for my kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, a few months into this, my wife and I are going through like one of the bathrooms and decluttering another space, and I remember starting this question to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, this has been so life-giving and life-freeing to own less stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where has this been my whole life?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how come no one told me about minimalism before?
[SPEAKER_00]: And while I hadn't heard the word before, like I caught myself mid-sentence because this isn't new.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like Jesus was saying the same thing, thousands of years ago, he was telling the rich young ruler, so your possessions give to the poor, come follow me, you'll have treasures in heaven.
[SPEAKER_00]: Life is not found in the abundance of possessions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So everything you have, he tells the disciples, give your boats and your nets, and not make you fish as a men.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have this example, and we have this teaching from Jesus, but for some reason, I always saw it as, like, I would have, I would give up everything I had and live this really boring sacrificial life today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, munker.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would get rewards in heaven, but life would be really, the poor would benefit, but my life would be really sucky, is basically the way I read all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, until I started actually doing it and started realizing, hey, like we don't do that with anything else that Jesus said, like Jesus invites us to sexual morality.
[SPEAKER_00]: How come?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's how we enjoy sex the most is in marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: He called us not to lie and cheat and steal and hate people because that's a pretty crummy way to live life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the same is true that when he invites us to give what we have and to focus our life on his kingdom rather than building our own and so it's really interesting when you think about it and like even starting with that John the Baptist chapter like that whole things about possessions like some of the most well known versus and teachings are all about money and possessions seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added
[SPEAKER_00]: of the things you know about money and possessions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's about money and possessions in the finding contentment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just goes on and on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Parable of the four soils.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all about money and possessions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Story of the rich young ruler.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just.
[SPEAKER_00]: It goes on and on, so anyway, we can get it in some of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one of the, I was just googling it, because I did not top my head, I should, but I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul tells Timothy, just as he's encouraging him as a young, you know, person setting up churches and putting out the reason he says verse 6 through chapter 6, verse 6 through 11.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Godliness with contentment is great gain for we brought nothing into this world and we can take nothing out of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we have food clothing with this, we'll be content, you know, so he, this is a, a common theme throughout scripture, and even it, it ultimately, it's not, it's not about, you know, just owning less like that, that's, that's a function of this, these truths like, oh,
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we it's it's more of a it's a relationship to things it's how do we relate to the possessions in our life money We just did a podcast a few weeks ago God's economy and I know you talk about that in your book and now it's just the opposite of what we what the the world economy is and how it works
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the more you give, the more you receive.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, not necessarily in, in light kind, but the Lord, I was no man anything, you know, when you, when you lend to the Lord, you're lending, when you lend to the poor, you're lending to God, it says.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is what you're talking about from my understanding, from what the Scripture says.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's our relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: to the things in our lives, the relationship to money, you know, as the words as it's not money, that's the root of all kinds of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the love of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the root of all kinds of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's how we relate to these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going through this journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: How come I've never heard this before?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then God's like, well, you have.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've shown you this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you start implementing this in your life, you're going room to room over, I'm assuming over seasons, over time, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, in one day, you just throw everything out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And God's revealed to you the reality of this, as it's taken place, what are some of the steps that we can take?
[SPEAKER_01]: Our listeners, because it is not, I know it's not going to look the same for everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure there's people listening to you and they're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have enough money in the bank account.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll have, you know, I'll have his debt.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some steps that we can all take to start implementing this in our lives?
[SPEAKER_01]: Two, two experience the blessing of less of contentment, which is the ultimate thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone wants to be content, but we're going to how to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you brought up first Timothy six, which is great for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil and I We think it's funny because no one no one loves money.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one ever says that they they love money everyone
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no one loves money.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone just wants more of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Paul says a differently elsewhere in his letter to Timothy, he says, those who desire to be rich fall into a temptation and a trap that leads men into destruction and despair.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I find that voice to be a lot more convicting to a lot more people because none of us would say that we love money, but most of us would like the idea of being rich.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing about a trap is we don't know we're in it until it's too late.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the parable of the four soils,
[SPEAKER_00]: which is one of the key verses, key things in my own life.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have, you know, the seed falls on four different soils, the rose on, lands on the path, nothing happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: The birds take it away, see the grows on the shallow and no roots grow, and so the sun comes and it's withers away.
[SPEAKER_00]: The third soil, it grows roots, but it's choked out the fruitfulness is choked out the weeds.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the fourth soil bear fruit, 30, 60, 100 folds.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the only parables that Jesus explains.
[SPEAKER_00]: When he gets to the third soil, he describes exactly what weeds and thorns choke out the fruitfulness of God's Word in our life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, it is pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It pleasures, worries, riches, and pleasures.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are the three weeds that choke out God's fruitfulness in our life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was telling this to a friend of mine and he goes, isn't it the love of riches that chokes out the fruitfulness of the seed?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I make, oh, yeah, that must be right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I looked it up and it doesn't say the love of money, the love of riches, the love of pleasures.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's worries, pleasures and riches.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them says the deceitfulness of riches, which chokes out the fruitfulness of the seed, the word of God in our life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I am,
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to read that passage and be so thankful that I was the fourth soil.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I got to tell you, I think the American Church is the third soil.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've accepted the word.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've grown in faith.
[SPEAKER_00]: But everything around us, all the things we're pursuing and accumulating are keeping us from being as fruitful as we can be in the kingdom of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what does this look like in terms of beginning to play it out?
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it was very much a light bulb moment of, hey, all of this stuff is keeping me from something bigger and better and more important in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't about becoming less of a man.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't becoming less accomplished.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't about working less or doing less.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was about, I want to own less so that I can become an even better version of myself, accomplish even more that I can in the kingdom.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it needs to start there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second of all, then we just begin the process, like John the Baptist said, if you have two shirts.
[SPEAKER_00]: give away the one that you don't need, like just start in your closet, start in your car.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not to start by getting rid of the hardest thing, your baseball card collection from when you're a kid, like, yeah, there's more that you love the most of these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, start just start with all the things in your house that you know you don't need anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: free up that space, notice what's happening in your life as you start giving things away, you'll start noticing other people's needs, you'll think about money differently, you'll think about success differently, you'll have to wrestle with questions of like, what do I want to keep, what is important, what is God calling me to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, this always looks different from one person to another and
[SPEAKER_00]: I even think the biblical example of that is, you know, the forefisherman, Jesus says, give up your boats and your nets and come follow me and I'll make you fishers of men a little bit later in the book of Mark, they heal a demon-possessed man and he comes out to the disciples getting on the boat and he's like, I'm ready where are we going?
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus says, no, no, no, stay here, you go home.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go live in your house, you be my witness in your town, in your community, and in your city.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so God calls us to different things and different passions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And He calls some people to give up everything and move into the inner city.
[SPEAKER_00]: He calls other people to be architects and teachers and pastors and CEOs and politicians.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like He puts different calls on our lives and we have to own different things in order to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you're a successful CEO, I, like, you should be doing that as well as you possibly can and you need to own what you need to own in order to do that, but I think some of the other teachings and scripture should call us to question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that mean I really have to buy the biggest house in the city that I can passively afford or might God be calling me to do something bigger and better and more important with my money in life?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you said CS and I was, while you're talking, I was thinking of Elon Musk, who, I don't even think he owns a home.
[SPEAKER_01]: He stays at his office and works and he literally invests all of his time into his passion And I thought I was thinking also about I think it was Steve Jobs like forever had the same car You know and when that one would die he would buy the same car crawler's I'm like that And you see people that have seen this way of thinking And when they would describe these things it's like I don't have time to think about those things and so I'm gonna put my energies to these other things but
[SPEAKER_01]: If you take that on a bigger level, when we have, when we're doing so much, and we have so much in my life, we only have so much capacity, just in general, and our energy and our strength and our mind, you know, the capacity and how we can think and feel and deal with things, and
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I definitely see the value and the beauty and simplicity.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we protect against, this is, it's not going to just be minimalism, the success in our businesses, success in our own inner life, skills that we have, all the things that we can be prideful over.
[SPEAKER_01]: and say, oh, look, I'm more holy because I, you know, I have less or I look what I do over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I give so much over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I serve so much over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we protect our hearts against?
[SPEAKER_01]: seeing this way of, you know, these changes that we would desire to make and doing this and not see it as something that makes us, you know, above others, or better than others, or more holy, than others, but actually see it as, like this is actually a good tool in my life for discipline, for pursuing the Lord, for knowing Him better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, yeah, like you said, that's a question certainly about more than minimalism, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's about any, about any change that that got us trying to do in our life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah, when we
[SPEAKER_00]: discipline ourselves and try to make those changes and train ourselves and godliness, you know, how do we overcome pride?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that we do it at least I think what I've discovered in my life is that the closer I get to God, the further I understand I am from him.
[SPEAKER_00]: If that makes sense, like the more the more I
[SPEAKER_00]: fight to overcome once in, I realize, oh man, there's a dozen others that are going on in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And God brings certain people into our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's certain times.
[SPEAKER_00]: He reveals certain truths to us at certain times very specifically in this area.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I felt God was calling me in this direction and it's what I need to be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: this works great inside a marriage relationship, like, hey, God's calling me to minimize.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why my wife doesn't see it or the wife who doesn't understand why the husband doesn't see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say like we got to do that with humility, like just because God is doing this work in your heart right now through his spirit doesn't mean that he isn't doing a different work
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 years from now, you're going to discover that you need to fight that same battle and you're just fighting a different one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that it's all about being in tune with a spirit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about being connected with him and allowing him to do the specific work that he wants to be doing right now, realizing that we've never fully arrived, and I was going to
[SPEAKER_01]: major benefits, blessings that you've seen from this way of life in your marriage and in your children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that the the best thing is that it has brought
[SPEAKER_00]: intentionality into my life, in areas that I want to have expected, that as we began intentionally owning less, a part of that reality was just like, why do we have all this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I keep buying things?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I accumulate so much?
[SPEAKER_00]: And at some point you realize, I just wasn't being
[SPEAKER_00]: Paul tells us to make the most of every opportunity and I wasn't doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was spending my money on stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was filling up my space with things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was wanting more things even when I had enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so really taking back control of that area of my life in physical possessions, then sparks me to think differently about.
[SPEAKER_00]: my schedule and my habits and what I'm eating and the relationships I have in my life and how I view my work and how I view money and so it brought like these thoughts about all these different areas into my life and I think it helped me be a more intentional and engaged husband and father.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that it
[SPEAKER_00]: helped me accomplish more in those areas than if I had spent another Saturday morning cleaning out the garage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like next Saturday, the next spring, I was able to teach my son how to write a bike rather than cleaning out the garage with my stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so helped me in that way just live my life better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's certainly set a powerful example.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think both my wife and I for our kids
[SPEAKER_00]: where we're going to spend our money and what we're pursuing in life and what's important to us and what isn't important to us, I think it helped me live a life that was less envious of others, more purposeful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so much of the envy we have in life is around physical possessions and what other people have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: the way we overcome that is we spend our money where we believe God calls us to spend it and everyone else can buy whatever they want.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing with my money and time and I think that brings a certain joy into our life as well and
[SPEAKER_00]: certainly they could see a more generous parents than they ever thought parents who find their security and in Christ and I think people who I don't know even go to work every day not because it brings a lot of money into my life but I go to work because it allows me to serve others and help others show love in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: You feel like your kids have adopted, you know, these patterns and we have been in one of ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do, but I don't think, you know, for sure, until their first big paycheck comes in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I still don't like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I graduated in spring from ASU, my daughter's a sophomore in college, and so it's really easy to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe all this stuff when you don't have the extra income to spend it, but once the money starts coming in and they can buy a lot of things that they don't need and constantly upgrade the house and car, then they'll have to decide again.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of what I talked to college students about.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to decide now if you have to decide again when the money starts coming in if you actually believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and you're mentioning like, you know, going to work and coming home and what you're working for and I think a big tragedy in our society is like what the consumer does.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people are working just to support the things that are in their life rather than support your life or support your family or to, you know, enjoy your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think about, you know, it's thing in my Christmas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Christmas is, this is going to be gone out probably after Christmas, so, but everyone that has just gone through Christmas.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think like, man, I'd rather spend money on like an experience, like can we go do something, you know, rather than just things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so over the years we've been reevaluating how we do these sorts of holidays, because we've been convinced, you know, it's supposed to be a certain way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't want to live that way, so we still got gifts for our kids, but definitely moving towards less and less on that front.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's something that I think we should all consider as believers.
[SPEAKER_01]: If anything is, it's going to help us get out of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to give us more time with our families, but most importantly, it's going to give us a new relationship with our money and our possessions and realizing like,
[SPEAKER_01]: We always tell people on this podcast and in our books that everything we have is where we're stewards of, that we're not owners of anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're stewards of, and you know, over things and his pulse will tell you like, we're not taking anything with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we might want to make sure we're thinking about these things differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really appreciate what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really important for us to
[SPEAKER_01]: Consider his Christians and a major major way so I appreciate your time and coming on the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, before we go, share about your book, work and they get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, what's the title of the book again?
[SPEAKER_00]: the book is called Uncluttered Faith by Joshua Becker.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's available anywhere in everywhere that books are sold and Amazon, I think sells over 90% of the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think they're that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any local bookstore will be thrilled that you chose to buy it from them, but it can be found anywhere in everywhere available.
[SPEAKER_00]: February 10th.
[SPEAKER_01]: awesome February 10th it is and we'll put links on the show notes to your website to the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Joshua, thank you so much for giving me your time and I pray that everyone just was encouraged by this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so glad to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.