[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi everybody, welcome to another episode with Carly and CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're watching us on YouTube, you can see that CC is not in her own office today.
[SPEAKER_03]: CC, tell us where you are.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not in my home office.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am, well, maybe you guys can see the background if you're on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in New York.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're central park behind me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, kind of a tiny glimpse of central park behind me, but it counts.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Carly and I are shooting this on a Monday, which is not our typical day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually we record on Wednesdays.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so our week has barely begun because it's 10 a.m. And so it'll be fun to chat next week to be like, how was the week?
[SPEAKER_02]: How about you, Carly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where are you headed?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you're traveling, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm traveling this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So today, I'm home.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's my day tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to Toronto.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll have my Cleodang launch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tomorrow night.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I've just kind of just stayed one night.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'll be back at my desk for Thursday Friday.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, one of those weeks kind of on the go, which is, which is fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I kind of, I'm going to throw this out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't prepared CC for this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually kind of like recording on a Monday.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, there's nothing like a nice way to start the week, just like, talk even though nothing's happened yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, like the pros and cons, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because when we record midweek news is broken, you know, news letters have been released.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there is stuff to talk about.
[SPEAKER_03]: So would we just be reflecting on the last week?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, in our kind of Google Doc today of what we're going to talk about is a bit more reflective.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know, I feel like the tone of the day of what we report actually affects the way we talk about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that being said?
[SPEAKER_02]: it does because we're human beings, we're not robots and so mood affects everything, you know, like I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually really like recording on Mondays too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that, you know, the disadvantage is if we record on a Wednesday and the episode comes out on the following Monday, things are a bit more topical.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: but like in terms of mood and like a great way to start the week.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I quite like it.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, well, we've been up to play around with it, but often we do really try to stick to Wednesdays, but we, obviously, you know, we travel and we've all the reason that we're recording today is because of me because I'm going to be interested.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so wait, let me ask, are you going to be, are you going to take the train or a plane?
[SPEAKER_03]: to try I'm gonna fly fly okay yeah I found last time I took the train I used to train all the time which you know I I'm very pro public transit of all kinds last time I just the train I was in business class and on the way back somebody zoomed the entire time like in a business class like it's not like business class of silent so you like is like a silent car it's kind of a silent like it's kind of assumed that business class is a silent car
[SPEAKER_03]: That would drive me insane.
[SPEAKER_03]: Zoom, the entire internet on the train last time I took me a real, wasn't fantastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like a cut-safe, usually at a couple spots where you're kind of at the middle of nowhere, doing Toronto and Ottawa.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, so somebody's doing the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, I don't know if I was like, I can't do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we have a couple of things we wanted to chat about today.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to do a bit of a day in the life, as I said, we don't have, you know, a lot of topical newsy acts that's Monday morning, but I wanted to talk about some kind of examples of days in the life for CC and I, as you guys, to listen to the show, no, often we're traveling or we're kind of in the middle of different things, so I wanted to give you guys a couple of different examples of days in the life.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a message from a listener that we want to run through with you guys, which was gave us some interesting fodder.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we have some sales updates from the first quarter of 20, 26 in terms of a book sales.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, where should we start, CC?
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you feel like?
[SPEAKER_02]: What should we start?
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to start asking a question because I just look this up and I'm curious now.
[SPEAKER_02]: How many unred queries do you have in your query box?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have a number?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll just let you know what we do look.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to look.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just looked in line.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, OK. Yeah, because I didn't look at queries all weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, huh, I wonder a lot of them arrived over the weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: In your boss specifically, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know this like the agency box too.
[SPEAKER_03]: The way that I have the organized, I'm not sure if it is, I mean, I can't, I don't have, I can give it number.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't go back and delete and it doesn't have unread what's that
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have unred?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, let me see.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would drive me crazy that you don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to know on number.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know Google, Google's being a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: My channel's being a bad guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the folder has a hole, there's 10,000, 44, like 10.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, zero.
[SPEAKER_02]: Never mind this question that this is going to impress people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Never mind, guys, ignore my question, guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're listening, Carly does not actually have 10,000 queries that she has to get through today.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, I don't want anyone feeling depressed right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do have a really great manuscript in my inbox.
[SPEAKER_03]: I even go to drop everything and read it because I got an email, like late last week being like, I have two offers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to give it, you know, another week to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't need bits on the query and I was running the pitch.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, ah, I want to see this.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have the manuscript on my Kindle right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have got a few contracts work through today.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk about her day in the life actually.
[SPEAKER_03]: This probably just segues in today in the life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she would just get in the day in the life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, how many queries you have is a day in a life, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it is like at a first.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the heart of this question is of why I thought of the entry to bring to shooting the shit is,
[SPEAKER_03]: It is so fluid.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we have to react on an hourly basis.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it isn't, and I know a lot of jobs are like this where there is certain structure of weekly team calls or certain things we know in advance.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it is a very fluid job.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think maybe that's sometimes hard for people to understand where like when a great query comes into my inbox, I read it for five minutes before we help on this zoom.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I know how I have to rearrange my afternoon to be able to fit in everything I need to do and read.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 100% 100%.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'll just kind of start with my day of the life.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I went to the gym.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this isn't a vlog.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I haven't done a full video, but went to the gym, worked out.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually, you know, I ran into it.
[SPEAKER_03]: The gym was my friend that I am doing the in conversation with in Ottawa for the Ottawa Raiders Festival events will plug for our event.
[SPEAKER_03]: May 13th, Ottawa writer's festival panel, we're having two authors and my co-host Mary Tegert and we're going to talk about book clubs, what makes a good book club pick, what makes a good book club book and obviously have that great conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're actually halfway sold out.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if anybody is thinking about buying a ticket, please go do that now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we only have 60 spots in the party.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazon publishing summit that day in in New York.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so I'm going to go to that boo.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not boo to the summit or to the blue to the fact that there's a conflict.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we can't do everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know it does.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and and that's that's a great point that we we can't do everything right.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can't get every client's book launch and every single thing because we can get invited to tons of stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get invited to different like awards ceremonies that Yeah, we are kind of I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: by national, I guess, in terms of both of us travel quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love the invitations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please keep them coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not possible to do it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what I like actually a lot about our jobs is that it's both a job where you can have a routine.
[SPEAKER_02]: that familiarity, that really comforting familiarity that comes with doing something that you do often enjoy that you do well.
[SPEAKER_02]: We get a lot of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like that part of my brain gets stimulated in a nice way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's also the novelty aspect.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also the urgency, excitement, buzz, so whether you're like,
[SPEAKER_02]: whether it's an auction that unexpectedly took off and you have more parties bidding that you thought you would have or whether it's a manuscript that makes your way into your kindle and you're like, I have to read this in a week because there's another offer on the table and I'm really excited about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of like that it's like, it just gives me both, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it really is a perfect, perfect job if you're a kind of person who enjoys having a nice mix.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally, but I think that's where it gets out of control a little bit because if you don't have kind of boundaries around your time or you don't know how to kind of triage your workload, you feel like you're on all the time and that's one of the things that I feel like is just like a weak spot of this job and it's just my personality is like I want to be all things to all people all the time right like when I sign a client, you know, I want to be there for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to be able to get back to your most quickly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to read your manuscripts quickly like that's part of the job and
[SPEAKER_03]: that eventual kind of learning how to triage things like what is actually emergency, you know, what does need to be dealt with quickly and I've talked about this before, but I have like a triage pyramid, you know, and that really dictates a lot of my day, which is, you know, what is the most important things?
[SPEAKER_03]: And just as a reminder, what my kind of triage pyramid looks like is the top thing is a CC said, right, the deals, the options to deal with memos, like that type of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: contracts.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of the top of the list.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then it's really a lot of the second bucket is correspondence.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot of like getting back to editors, getting back to clients, to that piece.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then there's the next bucket is a kind of admin and reading.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the next bucket, a kind of the bottom of the triage pile is like a lot of the actual logging and admin stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of under that bucket for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's kind of what my day-to-day looks like.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I use a time-blocking system.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my calendar, looking at it right now, everything's blocked.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, you know, I know what I'm doing for any given time period.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know how long things take me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know if I'm trying to block a bunch of stuff into one moment, you know, I know I'm not actually going to get all that stuff done.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have to kind of spread that out.
[SPEAKER_03]: beginning of the week is a lot of organization.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I tend to organize my calendar my week and I kind of keep my days open generally for.
[SPEAKER_03]: organizing my week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm working on like larger projects that's, you know, I've tried out to do as many calls so that I can kind of get into things, organize my inbox for the day or the whole week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I kind of understand what I'm going to be working through for the week Tuesday Wednesday, Thursday is when I try to bank all of my calls on my Zoom, like all that intensive stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then Fridays, I try not to do calls again, things, of course, pop up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And
[SPEAKER_03]: and I will do them, but I try to wrap everything up for the week that was on my to-do list, get back to everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, so I'm the middle of working on two deal memos, two contracts, and they're kind of in various states of back and forth.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to look at this manuscript, as I said, that came in that was exciting to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a call with my assistant.
[SPEAKER_03]: I usually always talk to them for about an hour, early in the week, once a week.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a call about said deal memo, one of the deal memos that I'm working on with the other nerve and then I have some kind of agency calls.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's that's my day.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is your day?
[SPEAKER_03]: Look like a near-day little very, very different from mine because you're in trouble today.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have this week, it's like what I call meeting week where I'm just meeting with people all day and it's really fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: We do breakfast meetings, we do lunch meetings, even to drinks.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a lot of walking around the city and I always try to schedule my day so that I have my
[SPEAKER_02]: PRH, SNS, high-shet meetings, you know, close to each other because they are geographically closed and then I do McMillan and Harper Collins on another day, but that's not always possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's like, oh, just one editor, I really want to see, and then we try to meet halfway, and add an editor who's coming, coming to me so that we can do drinks and that's fun too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really like the
[SPEAKER_02]: the portion of our job that is talking to editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is like a hugely important for us because of relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like one of the things that makes our job such a human job is that it's all about knowing a person's taste and taste to something that is those very personal, like hyper personal.
[SPEAKER_02]: something like, I studied abroad in Spain and I would love a novel set in a very, very personal, but also very universal because you know, a good agent and a good acquiring editor has that kind of mainstream taste.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mainstream and whatever like bucket you are obviously, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, you'll know that something is really good and that other people will have that reaction to other people will also love.
[SPEAKER_02]: it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I really enjoy that part of the job, the part about this talking about books, talking about the industry, talking about the market.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I love doing zooms.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm very grateful we have zooms.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's just something about an in-person meeting, the energy that gets transferred.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also the fact that sometimes people do feel a little bit more comfortable saying things that they wouldn't necessarily in a zoom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not like the secret to the nuclear
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then in between at all, like I can't turn off, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm still finding ways to check my email to look at contracts to review what needs to get reviewed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Last night I actually finished a net at letter to a client.
[SPEAKER_02]: She finished.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to say 56% of her new project and she wanted me to read it to get a check in, which is something I'm open to doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it works, if it works for the client and for me end this with this client it works really well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And but it is torture.
[SPEAKER_02]: like it is actual torture.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I stepping to 60% mark or 50% mark.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want spoilers.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to share what my theories are where I think the story is going.
[SPEAKER_02]: but I was finishing up an edit letter on Sunday evening yesterday.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just thinking about how, in one mode, I'm like hyper focusing on this edit letter and I forget about everything that's around me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just like in this world, in the weeds, giving big picture notes, but in order to give big picture notes, you have to,
[SPEAKER_02]: substantiated with with for example on chapter x this is happening and I feel like if we know if you did this like you have to zoom in in order to zoom out But then afterwards I'm like in another different kind of hyper focus mode and like doing meeting so like that kind of yeah That kind of energy I really like and I think I think it works for people with certain kind of brain But like a hundred percent what you said about boundaries like
[SPEAKER_02]: absolutely like learning how to say no and learning when to say yes and when to say no is like an essential part of being an agent because no matter and this is your line currently you once said this and I and I quote you all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Quiring as in Quiring writers and some clients too close.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll always want more from us like no matter how much we give it does not matter like I
[SPEAKER_02]: over delivering like in my previous career.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was someone who always over delivered that that was my that I love doing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I loved going above and beyond always there is no over doing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: The positive reinforcement and the job you don't get positive reinforcement always when you're just because you can't give 110 to every person.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if I did get it like because sometimes we do get positive reinforcement like that's not that's not the reason why it's not possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not possible because the target will always move.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not possible because even if you do more than what someone expected, all of a sudden, they're like, what about this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's unconscious.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not something that, you know, writers, writers aren't mean about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, clients aren't mean about it, but no matter how much we give in this job, there's always a way to give more.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we as humans, because agents or humans, we are made up of finite resources, whether it's our energy, our headspace, our cognitive ability.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really important, I think, to be the kind of person who's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this a part of my job?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this within the scope of what I have to do for this person?
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's a no, then that answer tree ends right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's a yes, like, is this the time to do it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there's that too, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you might be able to deliver something, just not in the timeline that people are expecting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a whole answer tree that comes after that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so couple things that came to mind when you were talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things you're talking about with editors and in person meetings that I think is really interesting is and I'm sure you Totally think about this even though you didn't say it is there's a whole different psychology of an in person meeting.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's the whole like Who gets their first who shakes the hand you hug
[SPEAKER_03]: what's your familiarity with each other and then you clocked like oh what are they wearing or what are they bring and everything about them and forms who they are like you can't subtract their mind from how editors present themselves in the same with me right I don't expect editors to separate how they think about my mind from the way that I present myself right and so there's I find that dance of like the psychology of getting to know each other
[SPEAKER_03]: from that perspective really interesting because there's some editors where we both would, you know, and they might be different people, but people you get really overly familiar with because give a lot of common person, or you have great kind of chemistry, or, you know, bantering, or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I find that piece really interesting of an in-person meeting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like
[SPEAKER_03]: Once you, you know, when you're a newbie agent, you're just like, I just got to get to the meeting on time and write down the notes, but once you're more established, you're like, okay, I can take in a lot more about the psychology of like this interaction and how that infuses the way that I think about this person, you and I both, you're going to know exactly what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: You and I were both at a agent editor drinks one time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there was an editor who was talking about their job in a very kind of unflattering way kind of just being like you know what they're like kind of overwhelmed kind of just talking how they're managing up and they're also managing down.
[SPEAKER_03]: I totally appreciate that that person said that, but you and I as agents, we clocked that and we go, oh, that's an editor that's really overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I actually want to pitch that person right now because they seem like they've worked much on their plate.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I actually didn't like.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're like whiskey and burnout.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember saying that we were like, I would not be surprised.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like sometimes editors leave the biz and we both go, we're not surprised, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and sometimes we are surprised, it depends.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, you know what I mean, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like we take in all of these other social cues, status symbols, psychology in these meetings, which I and just wanted I know that you know all those things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just kind of wanted to hammer that home.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it's not true.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's food too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if you're eating.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's that.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is that for?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like they have dietary restrictions.
[SPEAKER_02]: like how how you eat how fast you eat who eats fast like drinks what do you order like obviously these days like not every one drinks alcohol yeah by the way a wonderful thing about our society but then like mocktail cocktail like it's just so interesting how you talk they have food in their like food in their teeth or whatever right you know like it's so good way I have a really good way of telling people that actually have a line for that yeah so I
[SPEAKER_02]: I always like obviously it has to be private.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can't be like in front of other people right like you find a way If it's just the two two people then it's a move point and I always say okay, so Girl code because I would want someone to tell me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: You have food on your teeth
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's fine, like it's always fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I would rather people tell me, like I would always rather someone tell me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if you have lipstick in my teeth, whatever it is, just tell me, we would check each other's teeth for me, send London to you remember this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, because you're eating on the go all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just like eating, I get to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was so funny and it's like before every meeting in London, I think it'd be good on London.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it 2024?
[SPEAKER_01]: Was 2024.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say summer 24.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and when I eat, I was what I've made where five lips are gone and I eat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I always end up like getting lipstick like smeared around my face.
[SPEAKER_03]: So just, you know, note to me to where let's make up maybe and those anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted to go off on that tangent.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, the other thing I wanted to talk about was in terms of what you were saying is the amount of code switching.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I don't actually think people understand how much code switching we actually do in any given day it's constant I think I've talked with this before not that long ago, but you know for for me today right I'm going from talking to you to talking to my assistant to working on a contract having a really serious conversation with an editor like I'm constantly code switching and even you in New York right you're going to be like okay I need this type of tone for this meeting this type of tone for this meeting it's that's exhausting the code switching and obviously gets easier over time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, especially because, like, after a while, you, you still meet with new editors, but a lot of the meetings are people you know really well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like one of the editors, I'm meeting this week is someone who bid on an auction and lost and she was really heartbroken.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, really heartbroken.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was so surprised.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was not expecting to lose.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that, and again, it's not the only thing we're going to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we'll probably talk about way more things.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, that is a different energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's all, yeah, it's all really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, like, I think one of my favorite parts about
[SPEAKER_02]: in person meetings might be when we click over a book.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be a project on pitching, but it could also just be a book that neither of us have any association with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Something like, oh my God, did you really love that, too?
[SPEAKER_02]: I really loved that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: The origin story, I think, of so many agents, is the same, which is like, we love books.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love books, and that kind of connection is really special.
[SPEAKER_03]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, and not that long ago and editor reach out to me and they kind of wanted to, you know, I haven't found a job with you in a while, like, let's set up a Zoom and then she just called it like, let's talk about books.
[SPEAKER_03]: You didn't to say, like, let's go for a wish list because, like, we're both pretty established.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our wish lists are pretty clear if you've, like, been on publishes my place, like, you know what we work on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it wasn't like, let's talk about her.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nothing's changed in 15 years really for either of us, but she's like, let's just talk about books.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, I just want to talk about this book, this book, this book, this book, this book, one thing I want to say that's come up in so many meetings in the past kind of two months has been strangers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's wanted to talk about strangers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know we've already talked about that on the show, but that's something that everybody is still talking about and packing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why did that work?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't remember why I don't work.
[SPEAKER_03]: We think about that all the time as industry people, because all of us work on so many books, and not every book is going to be a huge hit, and we sometimes just don't know why.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're always always working on those.
[SPEAKER_03]: And anyway, yeah, I think all of this is just a reminder of these things like why we love our jobs.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, you know, we get to,
[SPEAKER_03]: We get to solve problem solving for me actually.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of what my joys and my clients bring me like a problem and I'm using air quotes here, like a problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm always like, it's not a problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll solve it, we'll figure it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's one of my joys is something complicated.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's always really fun for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Was there any other days in the life we didn't really talk about?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think we kind of run through like meeting days in the life.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just it changes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's hear a word from our sponsors and when we come back, we're going to get into a very juicy question that a listener sent us.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to tell us the question that we got that we both thought was quite juicy?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we had a question about how agents feel when they receive a query letter from someone who has been previously agented.
[SPEAKER_02]: When is it neutral?
[SPEAKER_02]: When is it positive?
[SPEAKER_02]: When is it negative?
[SPEAKER_02]: This person said it seems the standard is to say it was amicable, but has that word lost its meaning?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what if it wasn't amicable?
[SPEAKER_02]: This person also asked if a man author has ever turned us down.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when we offered representation, but then come back saying, hey, I made a mistake for saying whatever, you know, saying, I'm back.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would love to work together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Have we signed clients who are previously represented by, you know, another agent has that ever happened to us and just generally like, why do agents and clients part ways?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a really big topic, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: And an important one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's so many layers to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm actually, I was,
[SPEAKER_03]: talking about that was I was trying to find an email from somebody who queried me after being with somebody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just kind of wanted to pull that for reference.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to, you know, do any spoilers or anything, but I just kind of wanted to have it handy because there's different ways of doing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where do you want to start with this one?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I think, you know, maybe we could take turns talking about the various elements.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many elements.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I think
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very common for people to think that like one of two things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one is because I was previously represented.
[SPEAKER_02]: Agents are gonna be really excited because it means that someone else believed in my story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's necessarily a positive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's one interpretation that's really common.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's necessarily a positive because someone else has believed in me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Meaning I have the talent, I have what it takes to be agented.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that it's not that that's not true, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just that that's so actually really complicated because taste is so subjective and the fact that someone else has like your work doesn't indicate to me that I will.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't see it as a positive.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also don't see it as a negative.
[SPEAKER_02]: This to me is more neutral and it might be a positive for an agent who's starting out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if an agent is just starting out, they might see this as someone else has given a stamp of approval to this person, especially if it's an agent they respect.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as an agent develops their career, I find that it's more common for you to go, you know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's positive or negative.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying it's either.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying like it is a thing that needs to be discussed for practical reasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other very common direction that people go is, oh my god, that means that no one's going to ever want to sign me again because if we part it ways, something must have like they'll have to do something,
[SPEAKER_02]: but that's kind of like a kiss of death.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's definitely not that either, because again, there's nuance to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many things with human relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is really, really complex, and there's so many variables.
[SPEAKER_02]: how we approach it really depends on, I mean, first of all, help someone frames it in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're definitely like red flag, it's ways to frame it, and there's also like really awesome ways to frame it, which I think is a little bit more sparse and neutral.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're right, everyone does use that word and I'm a couple of a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say this to this person who asked the question.
[SPEAKER_02]: The most,
[SPEAKER_02]: clear cut obvious and not even obvious but like the easiest scenario i think would be like my agent retired you know like my agent left the business like that that is just you know i i know it's not you i know it's not her or them you know i know i know i know it's i need a new agent for reason yeah i wasn't like strong i'm didn't do a choice either way yeah exactly and it wasn't like they want to leave me or i want to leave them it was like they left this industry for whatever reason yeah yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that I think is one of the easy reasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we could talk about various reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are various reasons why I made a bunch of, I mean, a bunch of no tier.
[SPEAKER_03]: One thing I think that's kind of missing from this question, which would potentially affect the read on this is or that they've been published or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: This just says, have they been represented.
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't similar that they've been published.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's actually quite a different scenario.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have been
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sold.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's actually not red flag not yellow.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just like my antennas go up as I always say right because I have to really think about how many people saw this manuscript.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you trying to clear me with the same manuscript that this is that is the big question like that is the biggest question and how is the same manuscript and has a balance of yes and.
[SPEAKER_03]: How much information do you have?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because a lot of people might leave their agent because they weren't very communicative.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he'd think, if this person comes to me and says, I want you to go back out on some of this man's grips.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know when people have seen it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will have to reject you because I actually, like I can't do my job to the best of my ability if I have that information.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a rejection.
[SPEAKER_03]: And pretty much flat out in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just can imagine a world where I would take that on, knowing the amount of just labor and situation that would put me in with my relationships with editors, like I just I couldn't do something like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you've been published and you're seeking a new agent, I also have a lot of questions about that, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: How successfully did it go?
[SPEAKER_03]: What did the deal look like, you know, after
[SPEAKER_03]: going through various steps of confidentiality.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd want to see the contract, you know, you're, I just want to, I need a lot of information about how it went, how did you feel about how it went, what was the outcome of that situation?
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, you can't give that inquiry letter, which is why people say, amicable.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those are some of my thoughts about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we'll definitely get into that type of stuff in a call.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I wouldn't be mailing back and forth with somebody about this necessarily.
[SPEAKER_03]: It would be more.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would ask what I always ask point blank is, what did you like about that agent relationship and what did you dislike about that agent relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what for you and what did it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it is so subjective.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we need to know both sides.
[SPEAKER_03]: There could be a lot of things that really worked.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then something else that didn't and that was kind of the deal breaker.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I have to think as an agent,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, can I work within what they are looking for?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if they're seeking a new agent, there's very specific things that they're looking for.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, they can.
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I that person?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: The next thing is whether it's referral or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people, you know, by the time that they have, again, been in the business a little bit, maybe publish some books and then they're looking for a new agent, they will often come to me through referral through a client.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they will say, you know, or they'll say in the query letter, you know, I know you represent so, and so, and they have great things to say about you, which is why I'm querying you, and I've part of ways with my agent said to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a very simple way to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you get a referral, they're kind of talking about why, you know, stumbled across me.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of important.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at the end of the day, like the psychological piece of this, to me it is very neutral.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it is a business decision, ultimately for them, and for me about whether knowing what they know and knowing what I know, whether it would be a great fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that I've really come to understand about doing this for so many years is when I was younger and starting out put a lot of pressure on myself to be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, need to just fix everything, you know, I've talked about like I love to solve these problems and if a relationship isn't working out or
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, they publish one book and maybe they don't want to work on another book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like these, there's like the concept of like the season of life and the season of career and the moment that that client is in what they want from themselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's not every author that comes across my desk is going to want to publish books for the next 30 years, but I guess what?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm doing this as my full-time gig, this isn't like career, this is it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there are clients that come across our debts that are just going to be for a certain season of life.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I know this person isn't asking about my feelings, about parting ways with clients, but there's so much that it was into this about what makes sense for a certain amount of time in somebody's life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's okay, and that's why it's a new show.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of what CC's getting at.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just it's all information, and that we all just got to go make a business decision.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that for the query letter, it's best to leave it pretty standard almost like simple,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that we need to know, you know, I have been previously represented before you don't have to say the agent's name though you're very welcome to, but I don't expect it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's essential to say this manuscript has not been unsubmission before it has.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's two things that need to be in the query letter for the conversation and keep in mind that no one is having a conversation with you unless they're really into your story right because we don't like our time is about people it is literally money for us and so we're not hopping on zoom calls to be like oh I don't know if I've read this yet or if I'll like it like that doesn't happen so for that conversation I mean first of all I would go into it really confidently because the person like your story or else it wouldn't be talking to you
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I would also, as an agent, I do ask like I need to know what happened and it's not because I want to pry but because I need to know like to your point-carly like if you tell me that you left your agent, your previous agent because of a reason that I will also that will also happen with me then I'm going to be honest with you and I'm going to say probably we're not the best fit, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you tell me it's something like I don't know actually something that's really common or reason that it's really common that I know
[SPEAKER_02]: people part ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if it's communication as in agent wouldn't email you back, you know, within a reasonable amount of time, then I'm not worried because I'm I'm, you know, this is something that I, this is a strength.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had problems in the past, like I'm human.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, I make mistakes, but it is a strength of mine.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm fine with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that
[SPEAKER_02]: Just as not every book is for everyone, not every agent is for everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's okay, we don't have to be universally liked.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stories don't have to be universally liked.
[SPEAKER_02]: We grow apart.
[SPEAKER_02]: Agents and clients sometimes go apart.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is, it is sad as an agent anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, there's, of course, there's that element of sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: But ultimately, at the end of the day, it is a part of the business.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we all have to be really strong and get through it and not.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, those are minds over it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So growing apart happens, it could be something like the editorial styles didn't match, it could be communication styles, as I've said before, it could even be something like personality.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like personality is a part of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I recently heard from a client that she thought that she needed an agent with a lot of chill.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are her words.
[SPEAKER_02]: because she has no chill.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how she refers to herself.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, I need somewhere with a lot of chill.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then she found out that actually she quite enjoys having an agent who also an occasion doesn't, because it's almost like, if you match my energy, you feel sane.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, oh, actually, I can calm down now, because it's also a big deal for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So much of it, what you're saying energy, and I think that that's a huge part of every job, but especially our job.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also think that you asked about our personal experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I have clients who have been previously represented, and I'm sure that every agent feels this way actually, there is actually an advantage to someone who knows the industry more than someone who's never had an agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is an advantage to that because they typically know the industry a little bit better.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, I'm also not going to say it's all ponies and rainbows because I've also been on calls and I know if agents who have been on calls with people who have had previous representation and there were a little bit of red flags, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like something that you should I feel not do is like badmouth someone else in a disrespectful way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay to say hey, this thing didn't work for me, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's totally fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a professional setting so there's there's that too, but I think I think approach it is something neutral Like that's what I would say to this person approach it is something neutral Be really polite and professional about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I let the strength of your stories speak for itself and you know If it is a situation where the manuscript has not been out on submission yet Please make sure that is very clear in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I may have to make sure either way But know that it is an advantage if something hasn't been submitted before our lives are way easier
[SPEAKER_02]: It is not that an agent won't take on something that has been submitted before, but it is way more rare, and for good reason, there's very little we can do once people have already seen something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and another thing just to like throw a wrench in this whole conversation, which is like if an agent loves your work like there's been people that have come into my inbox being like seeking new representation I'm like I am such a huge fan of yours even if you're in a bit of a sticky situation like if I'm on board I'll get you out of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like so there is the thing it's kind of just that, you know, if they wanted to they would right later people talk about that relationship like he wanted to he would they just like if they wanted to they would you know, like you want somebody that really wants to work with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: you will 100% want that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the number one criteria.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's why the concept of dream agents is so tricky.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that you can't have dream agents or dream editors, but
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dream partner is the partner who's obsessed with your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you want someone who's like, oh my god, this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to tell you about this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's energy rating eating off them.
[SPEAKER_02]: You want that so much so important.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't predict who that'll be.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can make informed decisions when you're creating your submissions, like agents do too.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that person, the person who has the excitement and the passion, that person is the person you want.
[SPEAKER_03]: totally yeah well I feel like we a lot more to unpack there so we have to move some of that more of that conversation next week because I enjoyed that I just wanted to do a quick highlight of what's going on with the sales as I promised so US book sales update first quarter of twenty twenty six some of this comes from publishers weekly some of this comes from publishers lunch some of this comes from the bottom line which is Jane Friedman's newsletter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, compared to the first three months of 2025, so we're doing a year on your combo here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Prince sales this year, I'd down by 3.1% according to book's game.
[SPEAKER_03]: In a bright spot of news, children's sales saw some growth, which was the only category to do, so which is really interesting after we've talked about all the shatterings.
[SPEAKER_03]: The lay-ups, and the lay-ups, very, very interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: What?
[SPEAKER_03]: The only two adult nonfiction categories to see growth were crafts hobbies and games, which is one category and religion.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, through with that, what you will, meanwhile publishers lunch reports that deal making is, quote, looking more fractured at both this year.
[SPEAKER_03]: Adult fiction continues to drive the marketplace.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nonfiction deals are flat, total deals in the children's market were down 18%.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, not the most uplifting of market updates when I definitely wanted to make sure that we set that your way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just not happy with the fact that so many children's imprints were closed and there were layouts and all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we see the news about children's sales being up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then at the same time, the deal's going down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, come on, publishing, let's get our all together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Blockbuster model, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody knows how we feel about our blockbuster model, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's it for today, everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, she's going to run after her meetings.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to get back to my contracts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we will see you again next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.