[SPEAKER_00]: But since the second season of Daredevil Born Again launched, we've heard from critics that every episode is a linear step up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you why today that maybe wasn't quite the case for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shocked.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, teaser.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to another episode of Friends From Work.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a podcast about all things in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and it's a podcast that's hosted by myself, Kyle Scunnewell, and my longtime friend, from work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Robbie Earl, Robbie, we were just talking off air.
[SPEAKER_00]: This has been a crazy era for things, just because of my travel schedule and whatnot I've watched.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, Gonja, I've watched all of DTF St. Louis.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've watched the Daredevil stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually watching stuff right now, and not just playing video games or watching sports.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all these different projects have got my mind and a blender.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've seen the go-in, you know what I'm talking about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that shut off, and I was like, I need to tell somebody about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: DTF St. Louis just finished, and I literally texted you, I don't, I have this overwhelming sense of, I need to process what I just witnessed, but I don't have anyone watching this, except for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like emergency.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, text me back, like, I feel so alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do I talk to about this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, I mean, and Candice and I just finished it to the timing was great because we were just like, oh, wow, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no spoil.
[SPEAKER_03]: The nice thing is is we,
[SPEAKER_03]: We have been watching rooster, which is the Steve Correll HBO show for an uphill.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but, but it's funny you say that because it is Bill Lawrence, so it's the same team that's made like Ted Lazo and shrinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, maybe that's what I'm thinking of.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it, you know, I don't, we probably haven't talked about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, I have always, you know, or crew up as a big scrubs guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that kind of humor.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a little bit of like the heart on your sleeve thing that I've always liked and it's kind of like got the,
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, it's like humor with a little wholesome stuff thrown in and I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Richard, we're a little bit different that way by the way, by the way, just barely.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not totally my scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that sort of goes all the way back to like the the very origins of of the like Iron Man Captain America.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I, you know, I think that's actually representative of other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Rooster has been this really nice kind of like, just feel good, Steve Corel doing like, just a very Steve Corel character.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, he's actually pulling a little bit, it's not at all a Michael Scott character, but there are certain mannerisms that are kind of the most Michael Scott I've seen him be since the office.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like we had to, it's nice because the HBO schedule has that come on after the details.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a little pick me up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's just a nice palette cleanser.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I am, I'm curious if anyone else is watching that show because we've,
[SPEAKER_03]: We've actually been we've been liking it a lot and I'm you know, it's kind of just to it's your Like life-hearted comedy sort of thing, but I feel like stick that show I watch on Apple TV was kind of like that just with golf Yeah, we'll just own Wilson one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not like a watch that not like a great show or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's like palette cleanser like feel good kind of story like yeah Little wholesome not wholesome, but sincere, maybe is the word
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've been trying to explain DTF St. Louis to people that's probably what are at least one of the most confusing shows to explain to somebody what it is because
[SPEAKER_00]: It's truly hilarious to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that is my humor.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I had said, both of us thought it's like some of the funniest writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not gonna spoil anything, but the older detective being exposed to things and like when he's taking notes, the notes make me laugh so hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just writing like a three letters or you know, like... And like the line like, is that for the...
[SPEAKER_03]: for a kicker or the nutman.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no spoilers.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he, he, uh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He makes, so it is my humor like, and it, but then it's also really,
[SPEAKER_00]: weird and zany in that like in the middle of this show that's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like an actual musical number.
[SPEAKER_00]: As an example.
[SPEAKER_00]: David Harbra's gymnastics routine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's also like the harbor that that that whole show was like a real standout performance from David Harbra in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and David.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah for sure, but I just it's like I I really like I really like I really like seeing Harbor in that mode because I've kind of only ever seen him in sort of the serious stranger things mode or like when he's in the MCU It's like such a kind of you know, he's got the accent and it can be like cartoonish and I love that character, but I don't even really like
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like kind of emerging of those two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, because he's still funny, but he's like sincere.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's almost like, he's so sweet, I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the timing of some of that stuff, like, like he's the opposite of Regardian's narcissist kind of is a selfish, yeah, and like Candace and I would just quote things all week, like, I want to be on the cool side of the curtains with Carol.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so they were just, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny, it's weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: the acting performances are great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a good set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then it's a murder mystery.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there essentially, it's not a thriller, but like you're trying to figure out what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, it's not a spoiler.
[SPEAKER_00]: It happens in the first episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's super heavy and depressing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, and it's hypersexual.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hypersexual, but in a weird way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not a romantic way.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was surprised that it ended on as heavy of a note as it did.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then the more I thought about it, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that was appropriate.
[SPEAKER_03]: But because the tone of the show was so often funny and kind of goofy, even whenever it was dealing with heavy stuff, I expected that final note to not be quite so grim.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, again, I think that, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, uh, so we're talking about Daredevil.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, let's talk about Daredevil.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's talk about Daredevil.
[SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of Graham, born again episode five are first impressions.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?
[SPEAKER_03]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, it's great, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was everything for everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rob, kick us off.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are your first impressions?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea what to expect to this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: We ended the last one with that cliffhanger of Vanessa, maybe being dead or being on the verge of death.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, I mean, this one was a real like, I liked, I think I liked the whip blash and the kind of fake out of,
[SPEAKER_03]: of you going through all of that and, and it's seeming like she's recovering, but then like the way they did the pineapple juice thing, you know, some things kind of off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I thought that there was some subtle things there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think like my, my like big first impressions before getting into the nitty gritty of it, one really, really great stuff from to not for you in this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I thought it was great primarily because, you know, if we went straight from, we needed some kind of episode like this, whether it was him sitting by her hospital bed and going through that process with her there or whether it was some kind of flashback episode, like with a funeral, we needed some kind of moment of him being a little bit more tender before he goes into like rage mode.
[SPEAKER_03]: just because they have like more than maybe any other relationship and the entire Daredevil TV history have really built up the significance of that relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I thought that it was like that all felt earned.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's my one big takeaway.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can get into the specifics of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other one for me, I I really did like
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, I mean, again, getting back to the kind of like wholesome thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm kind of a sucker for the good guy like choosing to do the right hard thing in the moment, like when it's tough and so I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a little bull's eye, he made?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I really, I thought that that moment of like him remembering what fog he did with that guy right at the time when he's like thinking of abandoning bull's eye and the fact that both like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I really like the way that that all kind of came to a head because it really like there was some emotional way to that like the fact that this is the guy that murdered foggy and it's making him think of how foggy himself like
[SPEAKER_03]: gave all of his money away to this guy that had bullied him, just to give him another shot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so now it's like he's sitting here thinking that, like, as much as he hates the guy for killing foggy, he knows that it's forgiven him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and I like, I really thought, like,
[SPEAKER_03]: all of the stuff between matte and point texture like that all felt really great and believable like it wasn't something where like matte is all of a sudden.
[SPEAKER_03]: like totally fine with Bulls Eye and forgetting all that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you can feel the tension and the kind of like violence that he's holding back.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I just like, it was some of the best acting from Wilson Bethel that we've gotten like, I think period like I really loved the last episode and kind of a different more like,
[SPEAKER_03]: unhinged way, but I thought that some of the scenes he had with Charlie Cox here felt like he brought kind of a different sort of nuance to it, but again still in character.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those were like my big, yeah, my big takeaways in terms of the things that I
[SPEAKER_03]: that I loved the things that I kind of came away thinking of.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, well, I think today, the segments don't work quite as well for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's what I want to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get into the work to what didn't work the friendly feedback right away, just because if I say all my generic thoughts here, it is broken into categories basically of like what did I love and what did I question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with everything you just said, and so I'm going to go into more detail here on our friendly feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you what.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you what.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you what.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you a few days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just a reminder, if you're just finding this podcast, check out panelboundcomics.com and use our promo code friends from work to get these comics that we've been talking about over these last few weeks, like the one Robby's holding right here, which one is that?
[SPEAKER_03]: If you got the video here, I'll just look at that book, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the first volume of the Bendus Run, who, by the way, is a creative consultant
[SPEAKER_03]: born again season two series.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if he was on season one as well, but that's incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a look.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this it's like a beautiful book and also this is just if you are if you're looking to get into modern Daredevil comics, I think the best entry points are either the Bendis run.
[SPEAKER_03]: just moving forward because it's like bend us and brew baker and wait and uh soul and then Zadarski or just jump to the Zadarski run, which is another good entry point, but
[SPEAKER_03]: This is so much the the source for the Netflix Daredevil stuff and a lot of what we've gotten here that I would highly highly highly recommend it and it reads almost more like a again more like a crime drama at times than it does a superhero story which I think works well for for Daredevil so love that panel about comics is right promo code friends from work save some money.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I think what doesn't work for me is in general, like I talked about last week of the ranking system with Neopolitan style pizza or inland golf courses, in general flashback clip episodes are not my favorite genre, so you know
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it's appropriate and we needed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm with you that the biggest what worked to me is getting Vincent's an Afrio acting is butt off, but also getting a little bit of a breath of him having a process that if we didn't have this episode, he just has the shocking thing and immediately turns into kill mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a little bit more impressive to see him turn into caring for another human mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you remember like even into the spider verse, you know, Kingpin is driven crazy because he lost his family.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the triggering gun was a cannon event.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think if you just rushed over that real fast, like yes, he was sad at the end of episode four, but to not have this would have been a miss.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in general, I just think I have a bias toward the flashback style episodes feel always like detours to me feels a little bit like lamentest, it's not but like
[SPEAKER_00]: Right away, I'm like, oh, okay, we're going to do like a slow down and make sure we understand these characters and where they came from episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that that makes sense in the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just not totally my preference.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not even really a critique.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like I'm never going to like this style of episode as much as like episode four.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it like it by design halts the momentum.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what it wrote.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote halt or grinding to a halt.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I wrote.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, I think that that they would say that's a feature.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, so I don't I think that it's okay to just like a golf course that's not on the ocean.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it can be the best version of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to be my preference.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the big takeaways.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love, I mean, I don't know that we've seen Vincent and Afrio act like this, specifically.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was struck by how much they leaned into, like he was almost like never at the doctors or anything did he like snap into Kingpin mode where I thought he was going to like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kill the nurse or, you know, like bringing a doctor and then go like, you failed me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna murder you.
[SPEAKER_00]: He still may do that by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like in this episode, he was tender and watching him process the pain was so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought he did it really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: How he handled the Vanessa stuff was perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like seeing him almost like cry.
[SPEAKER_00]: call her baby and talk to her sweet and get the pineapple juice anyways, but still be very firm like no, I want the pineapple juice first.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's still running the show and in charge, just totally a dimension of the character and the actor that I personally haven't seen.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when I think of Vincent Navarro, this is not fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have as a think of the Daredevil stuff, but my brain goes to like the Jurassic Park stuff where he's still just kind of like the
[SPEAKER_03]: I just don't see this side of him ever really in what I've seen and so I really appreciated that and that was by far the best part of the episode to me and and I liked that Vanessa had several lines kind of recognizing how out of character he was being they right like and you yeah I I thought I mean there was so much
[SPEAKER_03]: in that performance like so many layers to it where I think you can really see on his face what's like there's the there's the him kind of trying to put on a face for her to some level like then beneath that you have this real like desperation and and kind of fear and then there's this kind of hope that he's through it and he's still trying to control the
[SPEAKER_03]: lead it to some degree so it's like there's a lot like you can see a lot of warring stuff and even the way that that he's kind of doing these little winces and and like smiles and and trying to like anticipate what she needs.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can see that he is still the kingpin and that he's feeling the situation like get out of his control and that that's not something he's comfortable with.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's something where he doesn't want to exert control over her.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wants to exert control over the situation, the situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, it really was like, it's one of those things where I think that, like the episode to me, it needed to exist for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do, I think one question I had was,
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, getting into the flashback piece.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really liked seeing, you know, I liked the matte and foggy stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was in character.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought it worked.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if it was a little, yeah, forced to make all of that in one, you know, to like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the positive side of it like he said is the special like truly special take away was the whole mercy conversation and getting to see it go back and forth in time of Matt like you're saying wrestling with this guy killed foggy.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's awful
[SPEAKER_00]: But then there's this like, remember how foggy it is like foggy wouldn't have even liked me to leave him or walk away like he deserves a second chance your Bible talks about mercy, which another positive back in the church having the conversation with Dex about can he free his mind up, you know, like can it even turn and does he deserve to die should not let him die and then bouncing that all off the the memory of foggy.
[SPEAKER_00]: and and I do think that this is a weird thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what worked to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Foggy felt really in character to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that felt like foggy that I remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would argue a little bit kind of what you're maybe getting at is like Matt felt it felt a little force from the Matt perspective to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I understand like the the conversation about like finding the loophole in the warrants.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand what they're doing but something about that to me felt a little like you're saying for a store
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, the way you felt when B.B.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Karen talked in the first episode, something that kept it from being in A minus or in D.B.U, there was a little bit of that in the flash back with me where I'm like, this is a little bit not exactly hitting like you wanted to, and then another what didn't work, part of it might be the practical hurdle, like the deaging, or like not deaging, like I never am a fan of deaging in general, like it's always hard to pull off.
[SPEAKER_00]: if you don't pull it off though, like with some of the characters, like we know like Wesley, this is not a knock.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like clearly looks older than he did, you know, then.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I mean, he was 11 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're doing a flashback.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Matt, like his facial structure is clearly older and like more grizzled, which, again, well, and like his stubble has gray in it in the flashback scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so like if they don't de-age it, then I'm making
[SPEAKER_00]: Like aging, you know, it looks more or that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say, I'm totally with you on the de-aging stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I track to that, and then, you know, like,
[SPEAKER_03]: the way that I like to deal with that stuff as I'm watching is like I clock it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It distracts me a little bit and then I'm going to I'm going to try to kind of just like set it over here right I got it because it's so not a big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, I have a podcast breaking it down, but this is not a like mismarvel episode, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, that's not what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a return that's just like little things that I'm like, okay, maybe not a step or no, I mean,
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, talking about like last what I said last week like it's it's so great watching an episode where I don't
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't feel like I'm gonna have to explain anything away.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't feel that at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I thought it was very much like on pace.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I came away just as invested in the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, the highs, like the highs here were very high.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that for me, I'm okay, even with the Mac characterization, I do think that there's some, there's maybe a little bit of a,
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and again, it's been a long time since I watched season one, my recollection of season one was that it was a little bit the reverse that Matt was kind of the more like, let's.
[SPEAKER_03]: like, let's go out of our way to defend these people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, foggy was like, we need the money, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, just take the cases.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it did feel a little bit like they were kind of swapping roles there, especially since they're, they're going back to that era.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could they not have gone back to like season two era or something?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or they had this conversation or.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or yeah, which they, and then they would also not have to like de-ages much, but I also like I get that they would maybe say yeah, well, this is before that like this is the period immediately proceeding Nelson and Murdoch
[SPEAKER_03]: when they're still at this big law firm.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you guys see, he's doing one is a lot of mapping.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we have to defend this person because it's the right thing to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And foggy being like, we don't have any money.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can't take these cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, I mean, that's kind of how I remember it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, Matt's the sort of holy warrior and foggy is like the nice guy, but he's like, yeah, but let's be realistic to some degree.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I, you know, but I, again, I think that like I liked the focus on foggy's heart and that does feel consistent with who he is and I, I, I, I think kind of, I said shred.
[SPEAKER_00]: I screwed by the way, not screwed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would never use that word for foggy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, no, I mean, but, but I think like you can kind of wreck on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I can no prize it and say that, okay, you look at Matt's upbringing.
[SPEAKER_03]: He has this really in-sensituation with his parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: He loses this dad and this really kind of horrific way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he's essentially raised by stick who is very much a
[SPEAKER_03]: like no mercy kind of a guy like and that's the whole clash that they have is, you know, they're being moments where sticks like we got to kill this person and Matt struggles with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But whenever we see that version of Matt that really struggles with that, that is more like older, you know, Nelson and Murdoch forward Matt.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think you could argue that like
[SPEAKER_03]: as he's coming into that period, he would have a little bit of a, like,
[SPEAKER_03]: like heart or take on criminals based on his time with stick and based on what happened to his dad and based on like just the kind of wreckage of his life and what like organized crime has done to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I kind of like again, it feels like a wreck on, but I'll take it because I think that it elevates foggy a bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I see what they're doing there to say that like foggy's the one, even if later we see foggy
[SPEAKER_03]: like taking that stance as boldly as Matt will.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I like the idea that foggy was kind of instrumental in giving Matt that piece of his world view and even kind of anchoring it in his faith like which we know is important but foggy saying like hey look like this is what you're supposed to believe right you know like
[SPEAKER_03]: So it still is consistent with what we know about Matt, but it kind of adds this little, you know, insert bracket.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the thing that I wonder about it's really clever of the way that they interweave this stuff and I think that from a writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the television writing of it all, I think it's pretty impressive.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like they make it feel fairly natural for the most part, like the way that you're telling the story of Fisk and Vanessa, at the same time you're telling the story of this kind of meaningful interaction with Matt and foggy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that there were just a few moments where I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I, I like that this is all together and packaged and I think I would rather have one big flashback episode than like multiple.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a little like convenient that these that like fish and and that are both dealing with these real life situations that are causing them to both remember like the exact same night.
[SPEAKER_03]: in their lives, where they didn't come into contact, but they were both having these formative experiences.
[SPEAKER_03]: It felt like an excuse to flash back to this very particular time, and in that sense felt like it was
[SPEAKER_00]: Like maybe version on like a fan service thing where it's like, like we have it Wesley in the episode right and how did you feel about buck being inserted into that story?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like again, I liked the little bit of buck background, but I guess I'm just wondering, like, I think my take is I'm pretty okay with all of the flashback stuff in a vacuum.
[SPEAKER_03]: There were just times where it felt like
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we are, we've decided to do a flashback episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're now going to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, there's a part of me that surprised we didn't get like a binura, like flashier, just because it felt a little bit like, let's just like really like go back and like play the hits.
[SPEAKER_00]: not gonna be anything you said, but how would you not feel like this isn't a little bit fancy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this sure feels like what I said when we kick this whole thing off, which is like, they're gonna make an ode to Netflix.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was like, look, you didn't like born again season one because it was too Disney-ified here.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna give you like the Netflix show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, is there positive, like are there positives that come from that?
[SPEAKER_00]: 100% like we thought about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But first, sure, come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, when I said, like, you were brought back here, mainly said that people were like, oh, foggy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love foggy, which is great, like, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, and the Wesley thing, you know, it's a very small part.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think they would say, it immediately tells you what era we're in.
[SPEAKER_03]: without them having to say, you know, like early 2015 or 2014 or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think in and it's fun and like, you know, everyone loves to watch the camera painting again back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so it's like, but again, I think there's a part of me that thinks like maybe that piece of the like that piece of the flashback.
[SPEAKER_03]: feels really relevant to the Wilson story and then like the other flashback obviously feels really relevant to the Daredevil Bulls I stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just, there were parts where I'm like the fact that like
[SPEAKER_03]: It's one of those things that happens a lot in comics and it's like as the continuity grows and you see people try to go back and insert certain things in where it's like, yeah, but okay, sure, here's amazing fantasy 15, like the origin of Spider-Man, but here's this story that you didn't quite see that takes place between like page 10 and 11 of that issue and he actually met Norman Osborne in this whole period and they had this thing and you're
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's people saying, um, Tom Holland claiming that that little kid and Iron Man too is actually spider-man meeting Iron Man?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where it's like.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, maybe they didn't meet.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like, it's, like, it's, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like that very clearly was not the intention when the review was made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: When it doesn't ruin it, but you, I mean, you can believe whatever you want to believe.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't change.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, like, the fact that, yeah, like they had this one night that was very important to all of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it also is the first time buck kind of cut, introduced into the mix.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also like does it really feel necessary and that like buck doesn't even end up killing the guy right he just right and maybe that's part of the point like he kind of fails.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had a mallet.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, to show, you know, different air to show.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's aged.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, or that like yeah that fog he got one up on him kind of, but I think the point of that was just to be like, look, he's been around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he knew Wesley, you know, Fisk has been hiring him for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's old point.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, he didn't actually do anything in it necessarily because
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know if it was I didn't know if it was building towards this like he let fish down and fish for gave him and he was kind of like like that I thought it was maybe heading somewhere like that with Daniel where he was going to be like.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like this is your shot like you messed up, but you have a shot to like make it right and then you can like me, you know, keep moving up the ranks, but this is the like do or die moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he maybe kind of, I don't know, like I couldn't tell if that was me reading into the narrative there or.
[SPEAKER_00]: because to your point, I'm just not quite sure what the inclusion of buck in the flash pack was actually meant to accomplish other than just like rooting him in the history of you mean like was that night also important to buck in now Daniel like a free fold you're asking yeah I didn't think of it a ton through that lens I was thinking through it just thinking okay they're they're showing you that he's been around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, on that on that note, I think that is a thing that worked for me, Daniel and Buck this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Partially because I don't fully understand what's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: How much does Buck know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does Buck think that Daniel is leaking or does Buck think that, like his Daniel, the one reporting this stuff or his Daniel telling BB does he know it's BB?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does Daniel,
[SPEAKER_00]: So like that was kind of an interesting thing that didn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as they were driving, like I was also wondering, is buck taking
[SPEAKER_00]: Daniel, to kill Daniel is buck taking Daniel to force him to kill BB.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is for me thought, like, buck has BB captured somewhere, because he knows it's her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it, like, as your growth to prove your trust loyalty, you must kill BB.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was going to happen there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then it wasn't that either.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I kind of like trying to guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's a body in
[SPEAKER_00]: the other sailor right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they're first mate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then is he just meaning by the way that you can either chop him up or you can bury him like dig the hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was clearly, I think I were like discussing the like why do you need a chop him up if you're going to bury him is just that he's unrecognizable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we were like, yeah, we would both like, we haven't killed a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess you don't need to, you don't need as big of a hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: That way, I think, yes, we don't, we don't, we don't know a lot of Jenga.
[SPEAKER_00]: My gosh, that's dark.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think, but that was intriguing to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and I, you know, you could tell that it was going to be some kind of bait and switch because
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, like he wouldn't, he wouldn't forecast it that clearly if his intention was actually to kill Daniel, but I, you know, so I think it was an intentional like, he knows, I feel like he knows that Daniel has been sloppy and he knows that the league probably came from him, but I think he maybe doesn't think it was intentional, so I think it was
[SPEAKER_03]: threaten.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you know, yeah, I am curious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, do you, I mean, he tells BB exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's in critical condition.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then that's the, that's the story that gets out.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I kind of,
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't necessarily think that BB would have leaked that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think BB immediately left the hospital and called the news and said, she's at this hospital and critical condition.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like, she's not dumb.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that doesn't like I just don't think that that really helps her like her whole thing is kind of the underground gorilla like right so I don't like why would it help her to leak this stuff to the media Especially because like she needs the access for more important stories.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she knows she would be kind of burning her Yeah, I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same read.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think that maybe maybe somebody else or I think she did it
[SPEAKER_00]: I do also know the what works I really enjoy in this season, the aspect ratio changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're using them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the right amount.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more than I've ever remembered, like I can't remember another show kind of like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where they're using it for all different effects.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this case, they were kind of zooming it in to the more full screen aspect ratio to kind of show when someone was dreaming obviously also when they're flashing back because the old Netflix show was that aspect ratio the full screen.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they've used it in this show for Daredevil's powers, his hearing ability.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've used it when someone's dying or foggy is fading away like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of shrinks like it's getting more distant and then they've used kind of a similar thing with
[SPEAKER_00]: dream sequences.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's kind of fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I also want to give a shout out to they really nailed the coloring of the original Netflix.
[SPEAKER_00]: True.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a very clear difference in how it's colored.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a real bad greenish you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is greenish you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought almost too much, but then I went back and saw some clips from the original seasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the hue for some reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the coloring they went with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, that's, that's a good shout.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not quite the level of like, I always remember that courtroom scene in the Daredevil movie that like everyone just looks like sick.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's like they're in like the fluorescent lights are just like, it's horrible to look at.
[SPEAKER_03]: And at least the Daredevil Netflix like courtroom scenes, they put them in like the fancy, nice what you expect from a courtroom, but in the movie they're like, no,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember that, but trust me, I'll have to off to find it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Send me a picture of all the stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you're right.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was like, I thought, you know, in the hair, the Matt hair was was dead on.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like again, for me, the episode was.
[SPEAKER_03]: very much a net positive, like I really like to all the character work for the reasons we've discussed.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really love, like, I think it's important.
[SPEAKER_03]: and shows like this or movies like in superhero projects to get consistent looks into the minds of the of the heroes because I think sometimes you can fall into this trap where you're focusing so much on the villain or these new side characters that are evident inevitably introduced.
[SPEAKER_03]: that the hero himself or herself can kind of become one note, like I think this is an issue that I see a lot in make.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great call out too.
[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it, especially in long running things, which Daredevil has now become one of the more long running.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... like project's period with that's why we we talk about this with all the Avengers to that either we want this or the actors at some point go hey i don't want to just do right here's ironman with another problem and now i'm solving it like at some point you got to do something different aka fathor hulk uh... right you know smart hulk all this different stuff so i think for matt you know like we've seen him go through all this stuff and
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, well, like what we've talked about, I think sometimes the default can be how much can you take away from these characters and then bounce back, and they've done that a lot with Daredevil.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, that's fair to the comics.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people view that character as the, like a challenge to how much can we torture Matt Murdock.
[SPEAKER_03]: But,
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's nice to do more than that like to show what he's thinking about and what's driving him and a great, especially like with the kind of building tension with him and Karen and that was another like I really liked kind of ending the episode there because I'm genuinely curious to see what you know what the next part of that conversation is because obviously Karen is not
[SPEAKER_03]: thrilled that he's broke.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she doesn't have as much mercy for this situation, you know, she's a little more team Frank with with let's just let him die.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I love like a great setup.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great to have a three of them in the same room and for him to have the like have gone through that process of like, well, this is what foggy would want, though.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so like you can see why he like if we didn't
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think this is real.
[SPEAKER_03]: If we didn't have all that and that just showed back up with bulls eye and is like, no, but Karen like we can't kill him.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can't just let him die.
[SPEAKER_03]: There would be this part of me that's like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Ah, come on man, like I don't, but I think they're all because of this, I would buy that take.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I see why he's really torn and I loved the line from that, by the way, that like about the rooftop.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, when he's like, he's like, you killed me now, you're trying to save me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, and he's like, no, I'm trying to save you because I tried to kill you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you, like, that's consistent with Matt.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think like, there are a couple of, for me, big picture, there are a couple of
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think all of the, like the bones of it, like the character work, I'm really grateful for.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the pacing of it is gonna pay off as we start like ramping up speed again, getting to the end of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also probably the first episode where I felt like if you binge it, it will work better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I like that much to have to be a carrier.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say one of their positive my other thing I like this is obvious I'm thankful they let Vanessa die you know when the episode's picked picked up yeah started off.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh Man, they're gonna they're gonna not have her die and that was just like a traumatic event and I feel like
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as we often talk about in these comic book movies like we need consequences that are long lasting and not just that she can come back and if you actually go back through the Netflix stuff She's had a few times where like she had to go away to a different country.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so she's kind of already been in and out and I thought to now again kind of like bring her away But then bring her back again Yeah, to life and back in the fold was just a missed opportunity and
[SPEAKER_00]: this I'm thankful for because we got the best of both worlds we got the character development we talked about so many times already yeah we talked about the acting performance we got because of it but I think she needs to be gone for stuff to really get rolling so I'm thankful that that's how it ended because literally when it first started I said oh they're not killing her don't I go that was like out of my mouth I don't know yeah but then it made it more of a gut punch when they did you know so we got
[SPEAKER_00]: That was my last thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, my I think my my well one of these I'll say for our next segment.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess my last thing here is to your point.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is I would just say pure preference for me and and I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Especially if you look back at the Netflix series is a model.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it was such a slow burn that I think this episode is nowhere near what like episode episodes of the Netflix stuff was in terms of just like simmering.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that I have, I've so enjoyed.
[SPEAKER_03]: the kind of fast-paced, the kind of building crime drama procedural mixed with like really fun action sequences.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: That there is a part of me that just like missed not having any any action sequences here.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: But again, that's a preference thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that there are probably a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I could like
[SPEAKER_03]: I could see why this would be a high point of the series for certain people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I know we've talked about this Greg, who writes our newsletter.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he said this is his favorite episode of season two and it's one of those things we're like.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that's like, I can absolutely see why that would be the case because it's so like it has kind of some of that stuff in like Moonlight episode five that we talk about where it's just this like you're really digging in and you're getting some great performances and it's like emotionally like complex, but I think that for me, like that
[SPEAKER_03]: it it contextualizes other parts of the series that I think I will then like even more, but I think this in and of itself would not because of my own preference be like my personal high point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it would help to lead to more highs down the line and maybe even retroactively you know like because I do like the additional clumps of stuff we've gotten.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's just get to ranking it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have three segments remaining, but after a quick word from our sponsors, I'm gonna tell you why it's a little bit unique today.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be right back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You save the good stuff for special occasions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for just following up, like we normally would do, were there any larger MCU discussions or I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: But this is, I was going to make just two quick points.
[SPEAKER_03]: One, do you think we are getting a clear, like, Rosario Dawson appearance?
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, yes, and that was the nurse comment, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, we fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not here then in season three, for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and I like, so I wonder if I like to clear.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: If that could lead to a, uh, the cage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know where the things left off between clear and Luke, but, uh, I wonder if that's, and intro there.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's my other comment, uh, on just following up, not MCU per se.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said last time.
[SPEAKER_03]: I kind of love that we haven't gotten a hint at just like an actual appearance Jessica yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the first episode where, and I want to be careful here, it's not that I'm like, oh, we need Jessica Jones because this season is weak and we need more cameos.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think if you told me that Jessica Jones was never going to show up in the season, it wouldn't really alter my feelings on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'd be like, okay, that's, you know, we haven't heard anything about Jessica Jones for like 10 years, so that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because part of the marketing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that there's a little bit like even the episode today, like the little trailer that they play beforehand, it leans so much into the Jessica Jones stuff that I'm like, okay, we're now over halfway through this season and like we didn't even like into this episode with a cliffhanger and I think that's more of a marketing quibble for me where I don't I don't know if it feels a little bit like they're dangling this thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: and having us like wait and see which like when it when it pays off.
[SPEAKER_03]: And but that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: But practically speaking, when would she have been needed?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like one or the process would dare to have been like, I'm dragging bulls eye out of here.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to call Jessica.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm with you there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that it's just kind of more like what we've talked about before with trailers where I'm like, I don't
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're going to not introduce this until the back, like yeah, I am 35% of the show or whatever, like don't lead with that in the initial marketing and keep hammering it as though like because then you're just going to wind up frustrating people and yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: like I'm not like I'm not not allowing it with it as a fan.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just a sure but it had to be noted.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's the hard balance a little bit with all trailers for me in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think in a perfect world if I knew a Christopher Nolan movie is coming out the summer I actually don't need to see anything like I'm going to go right and I'm going to be a 10 out of 10 excitement regardless.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so how much of that do you lean into with fans, versus we have to reveal this thing to market it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about like, why in the world was red Hulk ever marketed in Captain America?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I feel like if I literally knew nothing about that, it would have been a huge cool moment that, oh my goodness, Ross is also turning into Hulk.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they were worried that people weren't gonna go watch the movie if you didn't see that there was another element to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they put it in the trailer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, yeah, if you were going to wait for Kristen Ritter to show up till episode six, maybe you don't put her in the marketing at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what she shows up next week, we'd be like, holy crap, Jessica Jones is in this show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, everyone's been like, oh, that makes so much sense of the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, that's what he was referring to when he said Jess earlier, oh, it is Jessica Jones.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: They pulled that off.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think about, but they're also thinking if we market her, maybe people will watch the show that watched the Netflix stuff and, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's that's probably fair and maybe there are, I'd be curious to see what the breakdown is and how much that has moved the needle for people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I always tend to prefer trailers that give me a sense of like the vibe more than they do give me plot elements like inception, but a trailer of like dreams and like a city's collapsing and you're like, I have no idea what we're talking about, but we're like interstellar like the trailers just like him driving the truck through the cornfield crying and then the music in the background and the countdown.
[SPEAKER_03]: which has like nothing to do with it's not nothing to do with nothing about what it just gives you a sense of and you kind of are like this is what it's going to feel like which is you know true but anyway this right not like not a complaint with this episode specifically but it is a thought I had when the credits rolled
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can't think of any of their larger MCU ties.
[SPEAKER_00]: Listeners, please chime in.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have one, because of the nature of the flashback, we spent a lot of time reflecting on earlier years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember missing other than Clare, that's a good one.
[SPEAKER_03]: And finding out, I guess the Fisk used to leg.
[SPEAKER_03]: that when they were at their old firm, we now know that Fisk was basically paying their bills sort of like, uh, uh, but that does out, yes, yes, but does that really, that doesn't have greater MCU ties?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, it just kind of like flushes out the general, the universe, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, from a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, we know each other, he's a friend from work
[SPEAKER_00]: This is another weird segment because I started recording if you saw me earlier, I was looking at my phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I realized I did not prepare any kind of question from somebody, but then I realized this is why I didn't prepare a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because this week, I'm just going to say this, I was going to use our chat with the Newton brothers as our from a friend segment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just going to tell our audience, we literally got sniped by Disney and Confying team.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had an interview schedule.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not actually Kevin.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of being funny, but we had an interview scheduled and Disney like found out about the interview and said they're not wanting any interviews to come out until After May 5, I think the finale.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the problem is, or it's too powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have such a large platform and we move so many things when we speak.
[SPEAKER_03]: that they were like, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well,
[SPEAKER_03]: The, They got that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an anti-Disney comment for all the people who think we're Disney Shills.
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, and I do appreciate the, every interaction we've had with the new brothers has been so great and I look forward to speaking with them again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like in the way that they handled that, I thought was really great, where they very much made it clear that They want to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're still looking forward to coming on the show and stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited, but it was, it was funny that we had called.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does make me wonder a tiny bit on this from from a friend and the greater MCU discussion just following up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does make me wonder if something must be happening in the last few episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I think why would Disney shut these down?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would Disney not want anyone possible talking about the show?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the only reason I can think of is that there's some big stuff that's going to happen and they don't want any hint of like The new brothers, either even talking about like a Luke Cage theme or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had to grab up with.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't want anything Oh, that one shout out to Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't want, you know, we had to come up with a little, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my own guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise why wouldn't you want people talking about your episode every week.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is interesting because I mean, we've had other we've had plenty of interviews with
[SPEAKER_03]: like with with people midway through the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and Natalie Holt when we had her on during Loki season two, he kind of hinted at some of the musical stuff she was doing in the the final episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless he has just changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Kristoff Beck, I think we talked to during the middle of the.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I I mean, if so, I'm I'm cool with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they're like, I would rather than that shows me that they are, uh,
[SPEAKER_03]: that they're invested in kind of creating a moment, which I think is always better for everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do like, I am mostly joking, but like 10% serious, that, you know, they do have this, this is the first time there has been an official Marvel Studios podcast that's accompanying a show and I just, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to imagine they're not limiting their access to the talent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, little, little bitter and jaded.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's rank this bad boy for the file.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people will understand where I'm coming from at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like this is the safe space, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna say a B minus.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I said B or B minus for the first episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I like the first episode, oh, I know I like the first episode better.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is my least favorite episode of The Show so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is really fascinating when you bring up Greg and how much he loved this episode and like had been hyping it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, because it kind of goes back to what we were talking about the very beginning of the episode and off air.
[SPEAKER_00]: It different things for different audiences.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like different storylines are always going to resonate with people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I say, I just want all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really difficult for me to watch the first five minutes of Thor Love and Thunder.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like, oh, okay, cool, good start.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I'm sad, like to me, it like wrecks me.
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife and I finished that movie not too long ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were crying at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's something about the way that's executed that's really speaking to my core.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny, like this episode spoke to Greg.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't speak to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched it as a fan of Daredevil, but this is not
[SPEAKER_00]: If every episode somehow was like this, your devil would not be one of my favorite shows.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think there's a little bit of a casualty here because that was the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, tying back everything we talked about, it just so happened that this week, I was incredibly stunned and flabbergasted by the ending of Bagania and the T.F.
[SPEAKER_00]: St. Louis.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my headspace was very occupied.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched Bagania on Sunday,
[SPEAKER_00]: And uh, no, on Saturday and DTF on Sunday.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is now Tuesday watching this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a little bit of it didn't live up to those two, which to be fair is a best picture nominee.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like a very well-received HBO show right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just that moment didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I would say the rest of their novel has.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my head was a little bit occupied.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm a little bit lower because of preference of a clip show because it feels like a little bit of momentum came to a halt because of a few of the like de-aging things and character questions that you're asking me to kind of buy into the time period.
[SPEAKER_00]: And because I think my head was a little bit preoccupied with these other things that were so amazing, be minus.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, see, I'm torn here, but I think my, my, my gut says be plus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need different times.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, which I think is good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm, I'm torn between B and B plus because I'm with you and that I'm looking back at some of the other episodes earlier in the series.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like to me, I would, I would,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's clear that I do not feel this week, the same I felt last week in terms of just like,
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, everything really hitting, but I do think that like comparing this to some of the earlier episodes, I think that they are both doing different things very well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, I do think that like certain moments here landed so well for me, that I think it be plus as warranted, but I think it's a step down in part, which is because of the things that
[SPEAKER_03]: But I am curious to see kind of what the hardcore Netflix, like diehard reaction is.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a good episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good call out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually haven't done the ton of
[SPEAKER_00]: like Twitter digging, I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw our discord people loved it, which is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd be curious if there was some Netflix viewers that were on the fence, if this tiptoe, one way or the other, like, oh, you're trying to, not my senior or, oh, my gosh, Daredevil's back, you know, peak.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, Wesley, you might do, I do, I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw.
[SPEAKER_03]: As my parting comment, I meant to say this earlier because this is yet another episode that in a very different way felt so much like a comic book to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you have that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you've probably been noticed this in some of the books that you've read in the winter soldier comic.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of kind of playing with time and doing these flashbacks this other era and you can do that really easily in comics because
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to worry about actors aging or anything like yeah sure like you're all me younger yeah you can do whatever you want but there were things like that where it really did feel like even the pacing of it where you have this moment and then it's like the page turned within leads you back to this flashback or vice versa so I should say in general I like that it's kind of continuing that that feel where it it still feels like I'm picking
[SPEAKER_00]: agreed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's how I'm going to close us today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to briefly say that this is a big week.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always a little bit weird when you're listening to this, but it's sin McCon happening right now in Las Vegas.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you saw yesterday or Monday, no Monday night, so Monday that was the Sony panel.
[SPEAKER_00]: and there were two new posters for brand new day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you see it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, very much leaning into the like the rainy aesthetic, which I'm totally here for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no like crazy news, but they did talk about how excited they are for the film and that this is the best work Tom Holland's ever done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we got some updates on the third into the spider of her film, which is next summer officially now June something next summer, which I'm so stoked on them obsessed with those movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: And apparently they did show a clip to those people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then yesterday Tuesday night was the what is it Warner Warner's panel.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then the first seven minutes of Dune part three were shown to the people and apparently that looked amazing literally somebody said Dune is going to be our Lord the ring like this generations for the ring trilogy which that's maybe a little bit I mean Lord of the Rings is up there with awards, but but anyways, yeah, yeah, I think I agree with the sentiment
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I could see it like quality, like from a quality perspective being right what you're trying to hear.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think cultural relevance is going to be really hard to ever top like they were like like when I was in seventh grade.
[SPEAKER_03]: there were girls in my class that had like legalist folders.
[SPEAKER_00]: I totally agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to get to that level.
[SPEAKER_00]: But no, and that trick this was perfectly into tomorrow night.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thursday night is Disney's turn.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are rumors that Disney's going to go big.
[SPEAKER_00]: That some of Avengers doomsday might be shown.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe there's an announcement for another movie that we don't even know or something, you know, like something could be happening on Thursday, so by the time you're listening to this depending on when you get the episode
[SPEAKER_00]: be able to look out for that because there might be some news there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't have you saw that I share with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I don't know much stock is put into these kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a very large verified, what would you call it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Leaker, rumor, mill generator, but like like one of the main accounts said that they've been showing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Avengers do's day to certain people and that it's testing really well, it's testing on the level of Avengers infinity war and some people saying it's testing as the best movie they've ever made and you said that was like the pre-reshutes version that was before they added some stuff apparently Um, so that that's what that that's what the one tweets said yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: But then on top of that, what you said about the Dune Cultural Moment, there's also there's these audience tests about the excitement level of upcoming projects and like box office forecast and multiple sources have verified that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like variety, I don't know, a bunch of people have said like, okay, one, doomsday is gonna be by far the largest box office this year, like they know it, like even do knows it, apparently that like it's just because they do these polls and like it was something like even comparing to doon part three, audience interest for doomsday was like 53% and for doon it was like 29% and like overall awareness,
[SPEAKER_00]: was like double for Avengers doomsday, then it is for Doompar 3.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not trying to make it arrive really because I'm going to love both of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not making it wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying to the per the cultural moment thing, like, even with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's going to be more of a thing that there's an Avengers movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and to that to that point, I think I am kind of grateful that, like as much as I thought the marketing was a little bit mangled when it came to the Thunderbolts, new Avengers stuff, like where they kind of started using new Avengers halfway through the dashboard run.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think you need people to be thinking, oh, a new Avengers movie and it be all characters that are, that are like to them be level characters.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think that it's, there is going to be a real force to like, hey, there is a new Avengers movie out with Robert Downey Jr and Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth like, where I just think people are gonna be curious if nothing else.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and let's just say this.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it is infinity war,
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't tell you how badly I'm craving that kind of feeling again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like my whole cinematic life, not my life, but like when I'm watching movies, it's constantly just looking for the next new thing that I don't know what's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And can I get that same feeling?
[SPEAKER_03]: Chase in that rush, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Chase in that rush.
[SPEAKER_00]: But think about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine if we get to sit in a theater and watch Infinity War without knowing what's going to happen?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, if it is that good, yeah, I think this whole time I've been operating on the principle of I'm so excited, but there's no way it gets hot like in game, which again, is probably true.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if it actually does, I mean, and it's also worth noting, like, I think there are a lot of people a lot of people with a listen to our podcast that have said things like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think Infinity War and Endgame were weirdly the catalyst for a lot of people like to dive deeper.
[SPEAKER_03]: There had been people that had been following along loosely had maybe seen like a quarter of the Marvel movies and then saw the acts of a big event saw those and then kind of dug back in or like us connecting even yeah like it like there's a spectrum there but I do think that there's a world where.
[SPEAKER_03]: some of the projects that we've talked about that were really under appreciated of the last few years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think can suddenly get a new, uh, uh, a new lease on life if, doomsday, hits the right way.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great point.
[SPEAKER_00]: How many people had watched like the first Avengers and Iron Man and maybe they saw like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Winter soldier or something, and then all of a sudden their friends asked them to go to Infinity War, her end game, and they washed Infinity War, and then went, oh my gosh, I'm going to go watch, I'm going to go watch every movie though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to start over.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't fully understand where this is, could that happen again?
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever happens in Secret Wars, will there be a generation of people going, wow, that was unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go back to one division.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And by the way, on that note, and this is the last thing that I have to go, but I do think we will have up.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been working on this on the on the site, a, a page that will kind of help to walk through some different watch order things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of them, I think, will be designed at like a
[SPEAKER_03]: like if you want to either after watching Boons Day or prior to that, really watch the things that are like the essential components to kind of get you there from what we can tell.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, here's a way to do that that I think would make that a lot easier of a of a watch and I think a lot easier to track and just kind of a fun way to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so busy, which I totally understand, so my favorite thing in the world is when I am somehow surprised that you've been behind the scenes working on something Like my dream is that one day I got a text like hey, I finished a book about damn CEO here it is What you've been doing at this whole time Thanks for listening guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait to see how Daredevil closes will be back here next week talking about episode six right here on friends for more