[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Culture Matters, a podcast exploring the intersection of faith and culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys, welcome to the episode I'm excited for today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got my friend Marcus here.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm letting you.
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good to see you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know twice in one week, even.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we talking about today?
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my favorite things, creating activity.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of those things that can often feel, in the church world, we love, we love a creative, especially in the worship team.
[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes outside of that, we're like, what do we, what do we even do with all that, that created?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like, you're saying that people don't have a lot of creativity for what creativity can look like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, that was well said.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do feel that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the way I've always thought about when someone says, like, oh, you're creative.
[SPEAKER_00]: I immediately am like, oh, you mean I must be able to make music, make art, something in that genre.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there aren't a way to end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like, under a 3000.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe, or I look artsy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I look like I could be in the band, whether or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have any musical skill whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when I hear creativity, I just think artistic creativity, but I do think maybe to kick this off, there is a lot of room to open that box of creativity, like that what can fit in the box of creativity is maybe more creative than we are willing to be sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was kind of, as I was preparing this, I was reading some different passages and trying to find, like, okay, it was a Bible say about what we're made to do and all these things, and I did like this part, so Moses and in Exodus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exit is 35.
[SPEAKER_00]: Moses is talking, his first 30 and he's talking to his real life.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's given instructions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, and so we're getting into a big creative project here, a big group project.
[SPEAKER_00]: To build the tabernacle and so he's like, hey, look, the Lord has chosen us.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's filled us with the spirit with wisdom and understanding.
[SPEAKER_00]: knowledge and all kinds of skills.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's listing all these things, artistic designs and gold and silver bronze, cutting and setting stones, working with wood, engaging in all kinds of artistic crafts that he has given to do this work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, yeah, it stuck out to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: One that there was like some specifics, you know, but he's also saying there's all all of them
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I don't have time to list everything in detail, but there is a lot here, and we're about to do this thing, and the Lord has given it to us, and so a couple things, it's like, I heard this kind of recently, the gift is given by God, and so the gift doesn't really tell me anything about the person that has the gift, it tells me more about the God that gave it to him, and so if God created this beautiful world, so we'll take it back to Genesis 1,
[SPEAKER_00]: He made a beautiful world, he made it very intricately.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, literally, there's still people in space right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're looking at the earth and all the ways that the sky changes and the earth is rotating around the sun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's really cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nature is cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you should just watch any nature documentary and be in awe and wonder for the things that God has made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so anyway, that's my plug.
[SPEAKER_00]: If God is creative, and then he made us, and then he gave us dominion over the world to be creative with it, then it's like, okay, so what is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we supposed to do with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's my question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: How about that to start?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to, I want to go back to the passage you mentioned in Exodus for a second, because I think there's, there's something that begs us to kind of dig into as we consider.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what we're, what we're supposed to do with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he, he says in verse 31, maybe what I would expect him to say is like, I've given this person, you know, great skill to do X, Y, Z.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he then, he says a number of things before he gets to the skill part.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says in verse 31, he has filled him with God's spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: with wisdom, understanding and ability and every kind of craft to design artistic works in gold, silver bronze.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's obviously like, there is their skill and there's knowledge in the craft, but it's like the gift to be rooted in like God's given of his spirit, that there is a, there is, there is, there is indeed a spiritual component to what God has enabled him.
[SPEAKER_01]: to do in the purposes that he's allowed him to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I think that's important is we consider what to do with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, as we joked in the intro of, we have a uncreative definition of what creativity is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we also don't have a very creative understanding of what it's for.
[SPEAKER_01]: and where it comes from to the point of the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like if it is, as those who have been created by God, who is himself creative, you know, we've talked about this before on the show, but I just, you know, I always think of, you know, DK Chesterton talks about like the world doesn't have to be
[SPEAKER_01]: the way that it, like, I didn't have to make roses smell good.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't have to look beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, food didn't have to, it could have just been, like, you know, you eat the slot, your body's filled, it operates, but it's like, you know, there's joy in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's something about, you know, when we cook a fine meal, that's reflective of the creator who made us to enjoy the food, you know, and there's levels to that and all sorts of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: damaging and discouraging lies our culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's kind of given us to think about this whole world of creativity and whatever it might be.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that important if you can't monetize it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not worth you investing time and effort in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not going to monetize it, if you're not going to go viral, then it's a waste of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if we, if we step back and look at some of the stuff, you just, we just gleaning in the, in the scriptures, like I think there's, there's just more, more measures to what makes it valuable and what makes the worth our time and effort than how famous will it make us and how much money will it make us?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's, there's ways in which, what is it, what is, what is, what is being communicated about God, what is being communicated
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, just human condition and then also how is it how is it forming us when we participate in it or when we enjoy these I mean you sit down and you enjoy a good meal with good friends and then the you know what come what happens around the table or what happens when you someone writes a beautiful song or creates a beautiful piece of art or somebody develops a nice piece of architecture or designs of room a certain what you know you go down the
[SPEAKER_01]: can be expressed in creativity.
[SPEAKER_01]: The way a mother can form a, you know, experience for their children, or activity, like there's so many ways we can, we can exercise the gift God has given us for the betterment of those around us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that being something that comes with God's Spirit and comes with wisdom from Him.
[SPEAKER_01]: That God foresaw, like, hey, we're gonna need X, Y, and Z out of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then it becomes a stewardship that I actually get to exercise and invest in and enjoy the gifts God has given us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, two anecdotes that I got when you were talking came to mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a, I have a few people in my life that are my sourdough dealers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't make sourdough.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love to cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you know this about me, I love to cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love a good meal.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people are like, wow, you get like really chefy in the kitchen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, for me, it is a creative outlet cooking.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is not a creative outlet is baking.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not like to bake.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I just I don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have like one cookie recipe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I make every three years and I don't touch the oven unless I'm roasting vegetables or reverse searing a steak.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyways, but I have some friends who really enjoy the process and there's something really it's fun to me to get to receive a loaf of bread that was made by someone I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: They, you know, they're not trying to go open a bakery.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not trying to go and monetize this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you know anything about Sarato, you kind of, you're, if you have a really healthy starter, you can have, it's like you have to make bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those things you like make bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you kind of have to keep making bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times they're like, oh, no, this is so much better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm baking two loaves anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: I give my second loaf to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I gladly receive it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know who you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not, like I said, it's not something that's like they're trying to sell to me or trying to like monetize.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're just doing it out of a joy of like enjoying that process.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other one, and I don't think you'll mind me naming him.
[SPEAKER_00]: But Mark Sandu is a guide or church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's a very good engineer.
[SPEAKER_00]: He works on he has a he.
[SPEAKER_00]: runs his father's company now after his father passed and he took that over and he works on some huge like I don't even really I'm like you huge engineering projects I mean huge deals big highways in the area we live in a metroplex you know and he is an incredible piano player yes
[SPEAKER_00]: and no one's paying him to play piano but he does it so beautifully he played last Easter couple days ago and I just thought like what a gift and talent and it's not it's not just like oh god gave you this beautiful gift and you get to use it he also works at it like I know this about him because I'll
[SPEAKER_00]: When he's scheduled, he's like, hey, I just try to new patch on my piano sound and sends it to me and he's like, what do you think of this?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, you're spending a lot of time doing this thing and using your creativity to get better.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like an act of discipline and practice and care and doing something as excellently as you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like, there's a sense of excellence to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not your job and you're just doing it because it's fun and you like it and yeah, you're good at it and you work hard at it and I think those are just two examples of what you're saying it's like not everything is a monetized situation and not everything is like oh, this could be the rest of my life I get to just do this one thing like sometimes it's just nice to have things in your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: that are enjoyable for just the sake of what they are, you know, like gardening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, creating projects for your kids to learn something, you know, finding ways to creatively like redesign your home.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have some friends who are so good at that and their homes are just immaculate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like,
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be an interior director, decorator, and it's like, why, I'm just like doing it for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think our culture recognizes that at all anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's a place that we can be a little more disruptive as Christians to be like, hey, I know culture says that I need to like, take this and make a million dollars at it and be on TikTok, but
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually just doing it for the betterment of the people around me and my neighbor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like that's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a number of like I say thinking about the formation piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a number of things that, you know, I'm a my wife will call me a serial hobbies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the hobby and I'm not a shame
[SPEAKER_01]: But I used to be, and part of the reason why is because, like I say that, that stigma of like, oh, like, that's such a waste of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you, it'd be like to think, you start telling somebody like, oh, you know, I picked up the base and I'm trying to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, you know, it was be nice wish I had time to play the base and do, and granted, it's there like a balance of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, to share your responsibilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am convinced, not everybody, but a lot of our culture because we are so driven to consume, we're so driven to monetize, we're so driven towards busyness, we're so driven towards overextending ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have a lot of disciplines and a lot of categories for what it looks like to be a part from being productive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And not just when all of the work is done, because we all know the work is never all done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when do you ever, when do you ever Sabbath, when do you ever, when do you ever rest, when do you get to, you know, so much from me, you know, I like to make music and it's like so much of making music came about of like, man, I, I consume so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I want to, I want to outlet where I get to produce something, I get to make something and offer something and I like to say not to monetize, but just one for myself and then even if it's just for, you know, I think we lose sight of what, of just, yeah, of like little wins.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will call them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get to, you know, at my church, I get to help similar, when I was at citizens, we do memory verses, and so I get to make memory verse songs that accompany our verse each week.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there's, I mean, the other day, I'm doing, you know, bath time with my daughter, and I'm walking by and she's, I'm getting this, her clothes, whatever, and she's in the shower.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's singing one of the memory verse songs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just like, man, that's a win.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a huge win.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the Grammy to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like here in my five-year-old daughter rehearsed scripture in a heart just on my own because it's in a brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think there are moments like that that we get we underestimate stuff and it's impact on those around us.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second thing is I think we underestimate what we learn.
[SPEAKER_01]: in those moments and how they how they shape the way we experience and see God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I another one of my hobbies is drawing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what's the latest?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the latest hobby?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've kind of lately been sticking to music and drawing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those have been the music and drawing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You draw.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a lot of like lessons and things come up for me when I'm when I'm drawing and I'm not getting into it trying to like figure it is like I'm just trying to learn how to draw face or whatever the case made.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember realizing like, oh, you know, when people draw,
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a, people who really good at it, they have a sense of like where they're, where the drawing is gonna go, and they know that it's gonna look ugly for a long time before it looks better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they'll just draw lines that don't even seem like it makes sense, and then it'll come together.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the other person who doesn't know where they're going as much, we really wanted to look pretty fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you start trying to draw details too fast, and you know, you get,
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, what if like, God is so much in the business of like he knows where he's going in the final product of our lives and in our sanctification?
[SPEAKER_01]: And at a moment in our lives, where it's like, man, things don't, it ain't lining up, it doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't have put a line right there, God, like, why did you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just like, oh, like, I am, like, I'm weaving together this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I know where it's going and like this, I know this line doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, and in just a little bit, when I, you know, I'm going to push the darks and the lights a little bit and get everything structured, then all of a sudden you start to see where things are accommodating.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a thing, but in my mind, it's like, oh, that helps like that visual because of just the way God is wired me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just helps me like move on to certain things or ideas in a way that it's just like, oh, I didn't, I never would have thought of it in this way, had I not in, and I think that a right, that are, those kinds of moments arise a lot in play.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it does it a lot for kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we think we grow out of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, I don't know if we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we lose appreciation for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think adults are just big kids who still, we still need that, like, explosive curiosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for saying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, I think that's actually a really huge piece is the aspect of work and play.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is, I probably talk about the show every other episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on for culture management, but I'm always feel like I'm like, I love that they put this part in the chosen.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they show Jesus playing games with his friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, that's not in the Bible and some people will probably make that argument and be like, well, it's not written down and you're like, yeah, no, there's a lot of things are written down.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's actually like parts of the Bible where, you know, Paul and John are like, we couldn't write it all down.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we did, it would take forever, you know, and so this is what we've written down and this is what you get.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, yeah, it's one of my favorite things when they show Jesus just like,
[SPEAKER_00]: playing kicking a ball around and doing little games because I'm sure he did because he was human and to be fully human means you're going to play.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love that detail.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing I really love about that show is like the way that they, you know, kind of flesh out the characters of like Matthew Mark, well Matthew, Matthew, John, I guess we haven't met John yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, but they kind of flesh out these people that you know from the Bible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when you read the Gospels, they read differently, even though there's different facts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you read like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and you're like, these are all, they're telling the same story, but there is, there is like nuances to them, because they're different people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Matthew writes differently than John writes, and John writes differently than Paul writes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even that is like a picture of what it could look like to be created, like to express the same thing in a slightly different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes there's passages that I prefer the John version because it just reads easier to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like just a total preference, but maybe there's something else where I'm like, what I like the genealogy and Matthew, like that's all full for different reasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, I think it's like there's not an explicit thing that says people need to be creative but there are a lot of things that point to how creative humans are throughout Scripture, implicitly and explicitly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I think that that's worth noting, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it's, I would, I would go so far as to say,
[SPEAKER_01]: There is, I mean, you can at least make the case if not like a need to be creative.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like by the design, we are creative.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you go back to Genesis, the call to cultivate the earth and subdue it is a participating in creating with God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where you got to like,
[SPEAKER_01]: definition behind just kind of the, I don't know, the arts, so to speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so different ways that people can express it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think part of the emphasis that you've been, you know, we've been kind of outlined in here is
[SPEAKER_01]: broadening that thought of what we typically want to put it in a box of just a person who can do X, Y, and Z, and can do it at a level that, you know, will bring them, you know, famous wealth.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the pieces I know we talked about before I would love to circle to is being able to do something like not just because you're the best at it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something to, there's something to be said about being given a gift and, you know, you know, new testament.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_01]: About we've all been given, we're going to get various kinds of gifts, but we also been given gifts to various degrees, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not everybody is going to be, you know, a,
[SPEAKER_01]: Grammy award winning, you know, piano, whatever, but that doesn't mean you can't play the piano well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it also doesn't mean that you shouldn't invest time in it because yeah, you know, you're not going to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think there's like, I think sometimes we don't have a lot of perseverance to see what discipline can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we kind of, I mean, we, I think you said this earlier, it's like we will start something, but I'm not good at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we kind of quit.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just, we're kind of quitters in nature.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm guilty of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've totally been like, I'm just not good at this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't know, but there is something to be said for like,
[SPEAKER_00]: giving something enough time to like, to go somewhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this applies to a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you, we have a really robust training department.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks to one and only Terran Maysett, Citizen Church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she's really good about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's, there's a longevity to like, we want you to come and take Bible class, and it's going to be kind of hard and you're like, this home works a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to answer these questions, and you're supposed to just push through that, because after a semester or two semesters or three semesters, you start to see you're like, wait, I remember reading this in the class two, two years ago, and in the years starting to like pick up your Bible and it's a way of taking a slow route to knowing your scripture and to like getting to know God more, and you
[SPEAKER_00]: in the process of the class, you learn something about God.
[SPEAKER_00]: You learn about the character of God through the work of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that can that can be applied to just about maybe everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like in the process of your job, even if your job is not spiritual at all, which we had an episode
[SPEAKER_00]: A couple of episodes ago with Jonathan Pennington, I'm going to point back to that because they have a really good conversation about how do we think about work and as Christians, how do we think about work and they do address like okay so if I'm not invocational ministry does my work matter and
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the points is that sometimes it's just doing something as excellently as you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even that is glorifying to God.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a way of thinking about that even with what I'm being creative with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you're working in a job where you work with spreadsheets all day.
[SPEAKER_00]: but you're really creative with Excel and you can you can plug some some great little macros in there and some equations and stuff in a way that nobody else can and so that's how you're creative and then you know someone else could be like like me I'll use me for example I love cooking in the kitchen I get really creative in there I love I love like I do like a pantry
[SPEAKER_00]: my call it pantry pasta and it's just kind of like, what do I have in my pantry and can I make something yummy and I, you know, yeah, I'm usually pretty pleased with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I'm sometimes I'm like, okay, less garlic, you know, got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But even that, I've kind of learned enough to go, okay, how do I fix it if I made it too spicy?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I need to add?
[SPEAKER_00]: If I made it too salty, what do I need to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: So even that is like another way to be creative and it's just, it's just me exercising that like learning muscle and I think that's important to do in little things that I'm going to say air quotes don't matter, you know, what I'm eating for dinner is not a huge thing in the scheme of kingdom work, but what it's doing is exercising the muscle of how
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I move forward?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then at my job, when I do something and I like, oh, no, I did something bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I how do I correct it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've I've learned how to be creative in the kitchen with how I make my lunch and that creativity is helping me now at my job or it's helping me in a relationship when I'm talking to somebody and I'm like, oh, man, I know I need to apologize to you and I need to work through some conflict and how can I be creative and working through that conflict?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's a
[SPEAKER_00]: there's something to be learned from a human standpoint in all activities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: 100% now, that's where I was going to pick up where you read just left off because I think you hit on something that's really good, especially as we're thinking about like the formation piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead we're like, we aren't souls that like drag around a body.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not a body that's like stuff with like some spirit to stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are, we are in embodied soul.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, it is in what inner woven, that is what it means to be human, it's to be a in embodied soul that has been given a gift of life for God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And all of that is intertwined in how we operate.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's often why, in your most people, rather it's
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear a lot when people are, you know, do fitness stuff, that it's like, man, I find that when I'm like, in lock and step with my fitness routine, like, I eat better, my sleep schedule is better.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more productive at work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel more energized.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more consistent in my devotions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more, and it's like, it's not because there's some secret magic and working out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for them, there is a level of like, this is something that like, when I'm disciplined in this area of my life, it bleeds into discipline in other areas of my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I almost can track when I start to see these other things fold, it's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I also haven't, like I haven't been in the gym in a couple weeks, and what's I actually just recently did a training with some, some other pastors.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really cool, but we basically just assessed like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, kind of our mental well-being, physical well-being, spiritual well-being.
[SPEAKER_01]: When those things are in a good space, like, what kinds of things are we doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: How much time are we spending with family?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, are we reading?
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's being outside, maybe you're, I don't know, a gamer, whatever the thing is, but it's like, you know, what these things in my life are going this way, and I'm in my word, and I'm the tin and tin, etc, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: Across the board though,
[SPEAKER_01]: I find myself in this healthier space.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I'm not in the gym, if I'm not getting time, I've got this, you know, have a mentor and like, we're missing that time or when I'm not doing this, I start to notice these different things also get out of whack.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we just made no to that of like, okay, so how do we intentionally make sure the things that keep us in a healthy spot?
[SPEAKER_01]: Across the board, drinking enough water.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I know we're talking about creating a drink in a water.
[SPEAKER_01]: They get creative, you need, for me, I know I'm like, I don't really even enjoy drinking water.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the the clip that a o-wala makes when you press the button on the front is it's satisfying to me I drink more water when I have my o-wala you have to open that bottle yeah so it's like I got to know while and I drink more and that's good yeah so it's you know there's it's what are what are things that that help me clean and then the other thing is that that then becomes
[SPEAKER_01]: Where, you know, when we talk about the need for these different things is, it's not just a matter of, you know, oh, this is something that I'm just naturally capable of or good at, but it's like, man, it becomes worth the investment because,
[SPEAKER_01]: your spiritual well-being and what you're able to offer to those around you is worth the investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is why I say, like, I think as a culture that's so, so caught on me and productive.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've, I've got to see this kind of be a reality in some people's lives, what they're like, man, I, you know, I took you up on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I tried to, you know, they, something that they enjoyed, that they kind of walked away from and they, they came back to and they just were kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: make time for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, man, I, I was so much more productive when it was time to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and after, you know, doing X, Y, and I was like, yeah, because you're, you're only going to get so much productivity out of your brain here, but like we're fine night creatures.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: With your only, your output is only so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at some point,
[SPEAKER_01]: sometimes we could.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like those those moments of figuring out what that thing is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's not a matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you don't need a quit and get a new job.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just need it, like you need a solid day off, and you need to hang out with your friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to use that PTO, that's just sadness, and you need to go and have some fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go play.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's real like it's like sometimes too, you know, we can swing far into the thing where maybe we were chasing and it's like, oh, I'm, I'm,
[SPEAKER_00]: What you don't need to do is stay up till 4 a.m. doing that thing you really love to do too, you know, because it's like there is just there is always given take.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a way there's a way of over.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make a board come out of fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mayor may not be a word.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our gifts and talents and things in a way that we've been talking about like you've monetized it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've turned into a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You made it this thing that's like I have to do this in order for me to have this type of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's a way that you can under commodify it and sort of forget like your limitations, you know, like, hey, maybe you don't have time to spend 12 hours a week on that hobby, even if you love it, maybe you really only have that, you know, maybe you've got things in your life, you really do need to like focus on so.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's like an obvious answer here is, how do we find discernment for all of this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what are some practical ways, because that passage that we pointed out in Exodus, that he filled them with the Spirit God, filled them with the Spirit of God, with wisdom and understanding and knowledge with all kinds of skills before they went and made creative, the creative temple.
[SPEAKER_00]: They built the terminal, but it's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what kind of baseline discernment do we need to try and find?
[SPEAKER_00]: And how do we build that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a couple things.
[SPEAKER_01]: to discern.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first one that honestly comes to mind, you know, going back to the exit of this passage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think about this, particularly when it comes to the monetizing of whatever the gift is or, and when I speak of monetizing, I want to, like, I keep coupling
[SPEAKER_01]: like a platform, that's the word I'm looking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meeting a platform for the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, Oliab, you know, and those guys, like they're shot it out in Exodus, it's like they're the best, bring them to build the tabernacle.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were other people in Israel who also like to cut stones and cut claws, and they didn't get invited to build
[SPEAKER_01]: He picked certain people, got more of it, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember the days when I was like, maybe you know what, I'm gonna go to the NBA.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my plan A, it's my plan B.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I came back after one Sunday, and I was still 15 and a bunch of other guys with six, five and could dump and I was like, God gave them more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay, more height, he gave them more height.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gave, yeah, more height, more speed, more strength.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had more.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to gym, I was working out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love, I've been playing for a long.
[SPEAKER_01]: You worked out, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got more to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that I wasn't going to monetize that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I could still enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still do, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said it jokingly, but I think it's important in having it, having right expectations and discernment
[SPEAKER_01]: if you're not the professional at the thing it is it is perfectly fine to enjoy a thing yeah and not like I say not be the best at it and not have to have a platform for it there are other ways to enjoy it and to navigate that where it's still be a blessing to you and to those around you that's one thing I think the other discerning piece to your point of like the
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like storing, storing it accordingly with the various seasons that you're in, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there might be, there might be a season of life where it's like, yeah, you're working full time, you've got, you're in school, you're doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm a perfect example.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, started school a few months ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's your hobby.
[SPEAKER_01]: Had this right, had this great ambition of like, man, I'm a draw portrait every day for the whole year, and it was going great, and then school started, and then that stopped.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I got other priorities.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm working.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got family, all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, obviously you want that to be in, you're not going to be able to do the thing the same way somebody who does it as a career is going to do the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a part of it is having realistic expectations.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, I'm like, you know what, I probably realistically have.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, an hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I give you a great example.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember because my son loves golf.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was listening to this podcast because I'm, you know, trying to be a good dad and helping with things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know as much about.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm listening to this golf podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's guy gave this great point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it could be it should be applied to all sorts of things in this vein.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he trains people in playing golf.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, you know, one of the
[SPEAKER_01]: that I often will sit down with somebody before we get into any session is like, you know, what are they?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the hours like for work?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a family?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's that schedule?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are your kids schedule?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are they in extra curriculars?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you in school?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you like the first thing I want to really get them to understand is based on how much time you have to give to this?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, when I say how much time you have, it's not like, how much you want to give, but like, what can you give?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can give.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they based on what you can give.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you, well, in this amount of time, you can expect to be this kind of golfer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, I think there's a principle in that across the board of like, all right, hey, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to take up playing, I don't know, playing the saxophone.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, you got this much time to give to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're probably going to be this kind of,
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to probably maybe probably not that's okay have good expectations said those parameters and it's like and then and then stick to that and then I think always having community that can help you rise wisdom to be able to point out like hey you slipping over here I think you're doing too much of that like that's it you're ready for that
[SPEAKER_01]: or you might have the inverse, and I've seen that in several people where it's like, hey, you're actually underutilizing this thing that God has given you, and people be called up to the more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's where
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I always haven't had a wise count people who are able to look into as speaking to your life is really really helpful in that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you said that because I was going to add that if you didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think if you're if you're trying to do it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're operating from your, you're operating from an unhealthy heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are trying to do it alone, you're operating from an unhealthy heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, I think adding to an already busy schedule doesn't make sense and not inviting people into what you're wanting to do or hoping to do is just, it's, it's a recipe for burnout, you know, because I think you can, I think you can burnout
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going on like almost a decade ago, but I did this bike across Iowa thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called Ride Bride and I did it with a friend and we decided to do it in January.
[SPEAKER_00]: The ride is in July.
[SPEAKER_00]: At that point in time, I probably could ride five miles.
[SPEAKER_00]: before my butt hurt and on a bicycle, before my butt hurt and I was tired and I was hungry.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we started this cycling plan to get up too because you need to be able to ride like 70 to 80 miles a day for seven days straight to ride across Iowa.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the plan started where it was like twice a week, 10 mile ride, and then it would incrementally get more and then on Saturday.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think at the last point it was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like training for a marathon or something, but just we were on a bike.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so at the last point, it was like, I was riding probably two, 30 mile rides on Tuesday and Thursday and then riding 40 miles on Saturday, 50 on Sunday or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's the math?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like 100 something miles in a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was hours of my time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we did it and it was great and it was so fun and I thought like I'm going to come home and I'm going to be such a cyclist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do this forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reality was it was like I just didn't have that kind of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had it for those like six months, but I couldn't maintain the like 15 hours a week of cycling that I was doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it just became very it was like
[SPEAKER_00]: you know and that that's okay and of course I didn't stay in the same shape and I could write as far but that was just sort of a hobby and it's one that I still enjoy occasionally going on a bike ride but yeah just to reiterate the point to kind of drive in even more with like an example is just to say that worked for a time but it didn't work sustainably for me in my life you know
[SPEAKER_01]: seasons, seasons change and you can change with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like I remember before having kids that days of going and sitting in a coffee shop and just reading the book all day and I was going through my book list, left and right and it was oh and the reality is like I'll have a whole lot of time to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I used to do it and so you know before I was a scoffed at the audio book but now
[SPEAKER_01]: audiobooks have become my favorite thing it's like I'll see that you know I'll do this there's some books I'll do this yeah I'm like I'm doing this you doing household chores I'm cutting the grass I'm listening to you know a couple but I've already made it through like three full books you know this year from audio books alone and I'm like
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, like that's a super, super helpful thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think someone who's listening and they're trying it, cause I know there is a, there is a luxury sometimes depending on what someone has to do for work, or even what that schedule looks like of how they're, you know, my wife, for example, works nights.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what heard,
[SPEAKER_01]: What her leisure looks like, or what she does, you know, to express creativity here or for for enjoyment and rest looks different in the dust for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that kind of, that kind of thing goes to like a reimagining.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say the, the emphasis that I would, I would stand on is we are, we are finite.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't, like I say, there's only so much productivity you can give or it before it becomes you know unhealthy and I think having part of what any of this, I mean, does in our person and I being, it gives us give us a means and a way to slow down.
[SPEAKER_01]: and to observe and consider and like I think all of you know I think back all this stuff we're talking about lessons learned and you know nuggets we walked away with or even just enjoyment and memories that we have it's like it was those things were made possible because we were in a space to receive and consider you know it wasn't until I started trying to paint a landscape that I realized like
[SPEAKER_01]: man, God like refreshes the sky every day in like new grandways.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like it just, it became this moment of worship and that could feel small, but it's like, man, I think that I think that pays dividends.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was an until, you know, I started, you know, talking to,
[SPEAKER_01]: I was talking to a friend about, you know, how do you start when you're sitting down to to paint a landscape or whatever the case may be, shut out to Dom Baker's, Dom Baker Waters, it's been on the show before.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she made mention, she was like, you know, you always start, always try to find the darkest dark in the lightest light.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that gives me my eyes, an anchor,
[SPEAKER_01]: and then as I kind of figure that out and I get those main pieces in, then I can get into the more detailed, more kind of like daunting pieces.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember it didn't think in like, man, like, that's such a great picture for thinking about when we're approaching life and we had these moments.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an application there, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, where it's like things are so confusing and overwhelming and it's like, I'm going on and it's like, okay, where can I just like anchor myself in what's
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Light is like and and work my way from their bite side and you know, it's just I go on and on But like these these random moments I know in my life and then other people's like it's like you you missed that if we're moving too fast Always going from the next test to the other and we never take time to stop In here like what is what has got trying to say what has got doing how's my heart?
[SPEAKER_01]: I am my anxious.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like all of those questions, I saw this video like all of those things our body only has space to think about when we're in a place of boredom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where our imagination is able to to open up and be listed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you learned something important for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's like a lot of us, I would argue, some of it, like you said, some of us is like, we look too, we look too bored.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need some
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of us, most people that I encounter in our culture is like we have a problem with productivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know how we don't know how to put it down.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know how to contemplate and wrestle with what's going on in our thoughts and in our heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And these kinds of things
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you've been like, I kind of want to start that thing, but I'm not going to be as good as so and so my encouragement would be maybe go try and start it and give it I'm saying give it a year I'm not saying give it a couple weeks I'm give it give it some time try it because you'd be surprised what you can do with some time and then the other thing I would say if you're just like
[SPEAKER_00]: feeling kind of burnt out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I'd say, hey, invite your community into that, talk about that, talk to a friend, a good trusted someone, someone who can speak into your life, not just someone who's going to tell you what you want to hear, and sort of reassess, am I doing too much?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, do I need to let something go to make room?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because what's true is you cannot do everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: well, you know, you can be, you can try and do a lot of things, not very well, or you could try trying to do a few things well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where God actually wants us to be is recognizing our limitations.
[SPEAKER_00]: And get creative with all of that because it doesn't mean you have to go and paint.
[SPEAKER_00]: It means you could, you could do a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many things you could
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes and watches YouTube videos and then figures out how to fix it and that's creative.
[SPEAKER_00]: When his dishwasher breaks, he spends weeks fixing it and that's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's showing creativity for something very practical.
[SPEAKER_00]: And save money, you know, but he just enjoys the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: can't claim I didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love having these conversations with you and I love seeing the drawings that you do and the music you make in those creative ways to appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys for listening this episode is produced by Chelsea Conway that's me with editing and support from the good podcast company and as always check the show notes or resources in ways