[SPEAKER_00]: Morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: This episode contains details that some listeners may find disturbing.
[SPEAKER_00]: February 13th, 1891.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's 2 in the morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: A police constable Ernest Thompson is walking his beat, lantern swinging, boots clicking on the stone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He nears a railway arch that he passed about 30 minutes prior.
[SPEAKER_00]: This time, he hears footsteps moving quickly away from him in the dark.
[SPEAKER_00]: He shines his light under the arch and there he sees a woman on the ground in a pool of blood, her throat cut.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, she is alive, barely.
[SPEAKER_00]: and P.C.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thompson following the protocol drilled into him by the ripper murders of 1888.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nose, he cannot leave her to chase the man of running into the night.
[SPEAKER_00]: He blows his whistle, he stays, watches her die.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her name was Francis Coles, she was 31 years old and she may, or may not, have been the last woman ever killed by Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a study of
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am Michael your host.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a special guest today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rebecca Stevens.
[SPEAKER_00]: How you doing, Rebecca?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Rebecca's husband, Norm, was on my very first episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, and I've been trying to think of an episode for you for a while, so I'm glad you responded to me when I asked questions about Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Rebecca, I met as an actor, but you're now a, tell me again, that you're a therapist.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so I'm going to associate marriage and family therapist, and I work mostly with prenatal and postnatal women and couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I asked like, hey, do I have any friends that know about Jack the Ripper that may want to be on the show?
[SPEAKER_00]: You responded with some interesting comments that I totally agree with and I was like, over Becca's going to be great on this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am going to ask you about some of those thoughts, but I want to wait until I get through.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to give sort of a synopsis of Jack the Ripper just for the few people out there that may not know the whole story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Before I
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: People, I think almost everybody was like, oh, so you'll cover like Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, no, because everybody covers Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's nothing I can really add, but I couldn't help myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to focus on potential other victims of Jack the Ripper, because they don't really get their story told.
[SPEAKER_00]: Often, and when they do, it's always in like a sensational, hey, maybe Jack the Ripper killed more people, and they focus on the potential killer and not so much the victims.
[SPEAKER_00]: and so I thought it would be interesting to look at some of those women outside of the canonical five as it's called which are the victims that everybody says check the river killed so today we're asking did check the river kill more than five women and yeah so what do you think we're back uh you're on the hot seat now no if I just say no then do we stop the podcast
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, pretty much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, hey, I've got other stuff I can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think he totally did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's always been odd to me that like these murders started and they ended, I think it's only like three months or so that the whole Jack the Ripper saga happened and then it just ends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are theories behind that some people suspect that it's the killer himself like was locked up in an asylum.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's all these various theories that I won't go into today.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it still seems weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems weird that they just started and they just abruptly ended.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do think there's a possibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lem, I'm going to give a little background to Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the autumn of 1888, someone began brutally murdering women in the east end of London, specifically in and around White Chapel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the most overcrowded, impoverished, and crime ridden streets in the world at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: The victims were women who worked as sex workers who slept in lodging houses when they could afford the few pennies that took to pay for a bed, and who wandered the streets at night when they couldn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: The killer's method was consistent.
[SPEAKER_00]: He approached these women in the dark, kept their throats from left to right, with remarkable speed and skill and then mutilated their bodies, focusing on the abdomen revoot, removing organs with what many contemporary doctors described as surgical.
[SPEAKER_00]: level and an anatomical knowledge that's hard to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was never caught, he was never conclusively identified, and the name he became known by, Jack the Ripper, is undoubtedly the most famous serial killer in history.
[SPEAKER_00]: Five murders are now generally accepted as his doing Mary Nichols in August of 1888, Annie Chapman in September, Elizabeth Stride, and Catherine Edo's on the
[SPEAKER_00]: Mary Kelly's murder was the most savage at all because it was indoors, where she lived, where he had time and privacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if you've ever seen the crime scene photograph of that backpack, but it literally haunts me, like it's awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I heard it described, and then I was like, I don't need that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of my hides and that's enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: So after Mary Kelly's killings, as far as we know, all the murders stopped, but did they?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the official White Chapel murders investigation remained open until 1892, and encompassed 11 deaths, not five, and that is where our story will start.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now I wanna ask you Rebecca, you had some general sort of comments and feelings about Jack the Ripper and some things that you,
[SPEAKER_00]: You would like to say, or at least I don't know if you want to say I want you to say them, but I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, well, I mean, Jack, you know, terrible guy, got to love him, got to hate him, mostly hate him.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like there's so much talk about him that they don't talk about the women as much.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, when I did my deep dive a while ago into the women, like they were all...
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it was such sad stories of like women that had been kicked out by their husbands or they had left their families or their husbands had died And they really were just trying to survive and they were all sex workers, but they didn't have any choice And a lot of them were hoping that like oh, I'll get better But what also was going on for all of them is they were all alcoholics
[SPEAKER_02]: they all had a drinking problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I know that one of the victims she went out.
[SPEAKER_02]: She didn't have money for a bed so she went out to make her money and be a sex worker and then her friend saw her and then she was drunk.
[SPEAKER_02]: She had made the money and that she spent it on alcohol and then she got murdered.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that we have to take a moment and be like, yeah, okay, check the river.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, not fascinating.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a terrible person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I've got my own theories of who he is.
[SPEAKER_02]: But these women had a whole life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they had families.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even I think that some of them were identified.
[SPEAKER_02]: Their fathers came to find them or identify their bodies.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I kind of just, you know, I'm like, if Jack didn't have the balls to come forward, then like, at him, let's talk about these women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, they matter.
[SPEAKER_00]: they do and honestly part of the most interesting aspect of this story just historically speaking is how awful like the lower class of London was at the time like it's I would rather live in the middle ages than London in the 1880s and have no money like it was horrendously bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was super violent.
[SPEAKER_00]: So not only do you have these murders going on, and remember there's 11 just within white chapel and like a few years of their investigating, not all Jack the Ripper, but they're called the white chapel murders, but there's robbery, there's assault, like aggression and violence against women was just common.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was everyday practice in these places in white chapel, especially, and yeah, a lot of the victims, if not all of them were alcoholics,
[SPEAKER_00]: but also they were so desperate even when they knew like there's a potential serial killer out there they would still go out on the streets at night because they had to like they had no way to pay for a bed if they didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they had to do it like it's really really terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but you're right about like the living conditions like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, like it sounds terrible, and then you've got like a little shit head orphans being like, please, that's the most awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, no, no, you can't be more out of enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: It always for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, like the smells, like it was not great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you know, also these women being sex workers.
[SPEAKER_02]: People didn't care that they died.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they were like, oh, well, well, they looked down on them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: These were mothers and daughters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they were trying so hard to survive at a time that was like unservivable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll check the river come around like, yeah, you're going to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will give a little bit of credit of how and it was probably due to the press because Jack's a Ripper became famous because the press really focused on it because it was selling.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could make great headlines and they could sell papers and I'm not sure if the police would have paid as much attention to the case if it wasn't getting that sort of press.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I will say they did investigate this as best they could at the time because they did not have
[SPEAKER_00]: to solve cases like this like they would today.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but I mean, you have so I have to think like how hard were they able to try.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like obviously they didn't have DNA like testing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, if you look at like crime scene photos from like the early 80s, there's like cops with like long cigarettes has been like, oh.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they did learn this.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that Jack the Ripper actually had an influence on crime scene science because they didn't always photograph crime scenes and they started to with Mary Kelly on this she's sometimes people say she's the first crime scene photo.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's not like hurt they did use it before that and crime scenes just not often.
[SPEAKER_00]: and so they started doing it with murders after her and also the police learns to not mess up the crime scene before other investigators showed up because at the beginning of this they would they would touch everything that moved stuff about the end that were like oh wait let's wait let's wait so more people are here before I before I do anything so it jacks a ripper had honestly it kind of a positive influence on crime scene investigation in a weird way thank you jack-off
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the title of the episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so I'm going to dive into some of these potential other victims, and I'm going to start with a woman named Martha Tabram.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was murdered on August 7, 1888.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is before the canonical five.
[SPEAKER_00]: Martha Tabrum, aka Martha Turner, was found in the early hours of Tuesday morning on the first floor landing of a building called George Yard Buildings in one of the darkest, most dangerous alleyways of White Chapel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dark also meant a private for sex workers, which is why she was back there.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was found with 39 stab wounds from her throat to her abdomen,
[SPEAKER_00]: Martha had lived a hard life, like we've been talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was born in 1849.
[SPEAKER_00]: She married a man named Henry Tabrum in 1869.
[SPEAKER_00]: The marriage fell apart because of her heavy drinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Henry eventually reduced his alimony or I think the British were calling it at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: maintenance, so her maintenance fee from her ex-husband was originally 12 shillings a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: He discovered she'd taken up prostitution, so he was I'll pay you less and he paid her less than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he stopped paying her completely because she was living with a dude named William Turner.
[SPEAKER_00]: By 1888, this couple would alternate from rented rooms to lodging houses, and they were also an on again, off again, couple, and mostly they would fight and break up for a period of time because she drank so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was sort of the common issue in this relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the night of August 6th, Martha was drinking with a woman known as Mary Ann Connelly, also known as Perley Paul, with her nickname.
[SPEAKER_00]: Perley Paul, yeah, with later say, it's so like Victorian British, I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Perley Paul, with later say that she knew Martha as Emma and not Martha, which is a really interesting detail.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Perley Poll would give conflicting information throughout this investigation, whether because she couldn't be trusted or because she was a heavy drinker, we will never know why her details were always so all over the place.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that night.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mary and Connelly, Perley Bowl, and Martha picked up two soldiers in a pub on White Chapel High Street around midnight.
[SPEAKER_00]: The group split into two couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pull went with one of the soldiers and Martha went with another down into George Yard.
[SPEAKER_00]: George Yard is basically an alley.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that dark.
[SPEAKER_00]: dangerous alley, and a police constable encountered one of the soldiers loitering at the entrance to George Yard around 2am, still waiting for his companion to finish his business inside.
[SPEAKER_00]: The officer thought nothing of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: and moved on, and at 1.40 a.m., a couple returned home to George Ard buildings, but they didn't see Martha at the location her body would later be found.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be because it was so dark, like there's no electricity in that building, so it's very dark at night.
[SPEAKER_00]: At 3.30 a.m., a resident of the building, a cab driver returned home and saw a woman laying on the ground, but didn't consider anything of it because she could have been homeless or drunk, which was very common in my chapel.
[SPEAKER_00]: At 4.50 in the morning, a man named John Sonder's Reeves came down the stairs of George Ard buildings and found Marcia lying on her back in a pool of blood.
[SPEAKER_00]: The examining doctor on the scene Dr. Timothy Colleen made two findings that are somewhat debated today first is the majority of the 39 wounds have been inflicted with an ordinary pin knife sort of like a pocket knife size knife, but one wound the considered death wound
[SPEAKER_00]: was a deep gash to the sternum which was made by something larger and he suggested a dagger and I think later on they started suggesting maybe a bayonet.
[SPEAKER_00]: So remember she was seen with a soldier so it sort of connects this idea of the soldier is would be the prime suspect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second thing that Dr. Clean made was that there was no evidence of recent sexual intercourse.
[SPEAKER_00]: and the police investigation went nowhere very fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Perley Poll was brought in on two separate line-ups to try to identify the soldiers that they were with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want you to actually read something.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't mind pulling up that email, I sent you Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a quote from an article in the Sunday People News Paper from August 19th, 1888.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you must do it in the next set.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a requirement.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, I should warm up with, hello, Gapana.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pelepul can spot him, except to read a company a wait, I want to be so dramatic.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, Pelepul can spot him, except to read a company by a woman known as Pelepul, who was in the company of the murdered woman, went to the tower where she was confronted with every non-commissioned officer and private who had leave of absence at the time of the outrage.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pelepul was asked,
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you see it all of these men you saw with the woman now dead?
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably Paul, Peter Arm, a Kimbo, a Kimbo, glass that the men with the air of an inspecting officer and shook her head.
[SPEAKER_02]: Perley Paul exclaimed with a good deal of feminine emphasis.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I ain't here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You went into a little bit Southern there at the end, but that was perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: It had to be feminine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do love one of the reasons I pulled this quote is it's the importance of she couldn't identify the soldiers that were with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but I just loved the line with a good deal of feminine emphasis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just love her arms a kimbo.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like her arms a kimbo.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it could be like, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like she's an emoji, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to break down each person each victim I talk about today and sort of the case of why it could be Jack the Ripper and in the case against Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what could be Jack the Ripper about this case is Inspector Walter do who worked on all the Jack the Ripper cases and this one wrote in his memoirs that he had no doubt this murder was the work of the Ripper because the similarities were hard to ignore.
[SPEAKER_00]: a female street worker killed in the dark in white chapel or near white chapel with wounds concentrated on the throat and lower abdomen the same areas the river would obsessively target in subsequent killings and the body was found lying in her back with her skirts raised also similar to river victims additionally there was no sign of sexual intercourse which it's hard to confirm with the river victims but a lot of people claim that there is no there was no sexual intercourse with the
[SPEAKER_00]: with the Ripper canonical five.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that might line up and some Ripper scholars and many Reddit users, I wrote that because Reddit users think they're experts.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do that have argued that Martha Tabroom fits naturally into the sequence of the murders and that she may represent the Ripper's very first kill.
[SPEAKER_00]: before he refined his methods of sort of throat cutting and then evisceration.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the case against the Ripper is that the method is different.
[SPEAKER_00]: As much as we're like, hey, there's some similarities.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is different.
[SPEAKER_00]: And M.O.
[SPEAKER_00]: is really integral and sort of serial killer.
[SPEAKER_00]: science and psychology and trying to catch them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the 39 stab wounds with a pin knife is not how Jack the Ripper would end up killing people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it also shows basically almost like a different emotional motivation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people have argued that it shows like rage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she, it could have been somebody that was turned away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, no, I'm not going to have sex with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they could have just been mad and like, yeah, and gone for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just very different in that in that approach than
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any thoughts Rebecca?
[SPEAKER_02]: I do because I could definitely, well first of all, soldiers, thank you for your service.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to put that out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like this could be the beginning because from a therapist standpoint, he could have been holding on to all this rage and it came out the first time with her, and then he just learned to do it better.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so I think that there is a chance that he might have done this murder, especially when they didn't find it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if there was no soldier, I mean, if they couldn't capture him, then I think there is a really good chance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do too, and it's the reason I picked this one because there is a victim or two that happened right before this that some people claim could be the beginning of the river and to me they just weren't the same like one of them to me seems like a robbery and the reason this stood out to me is because there was this focus on the throat and the abdomen and you know you got to start somewhere it's kind of weird to say but like he's got to start and learn how he's going to do these things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought you think you had to start somewhere on a body.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the profilers that have said to Jack the Ripper have claimed that he would work solo.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was like a very personal event and experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you wouldn't do that with like a buddy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You wouldn't be like, hey, hang out at the end of the alley and wait for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that to me kind of is like, if it was the soldier, because I do think it could have been the soldier, that points away from Jack the Ripper in my mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I don't think it was a soldier either because I think the soul, I mean, again, the soldier wanted to get laid.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, I feel like he'd been like, well, I'm going to have sex with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe kill her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are your options.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I mean, he.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then did he get scared away like who like what is that story or did she get did Martha get turned off by him like and the thing is I I know that you might be you just said like it's weird to like talk about this hundred years later, but like these names need to be said like they're up you know heaven or or hell will jack the river's definitely in hell.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like the these names need to be remembered so I think it's okay that we are talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's important to share these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Martha Tabrum unfortunately shares a lot of similarities with all the other river victims and the the other ladies that we're going to talk about today, which is that it was just it was tough out there, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they were so desperate and and it was so hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to talk now about Alice McKinsey, who was murdered on July 17, 1889.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is eight months after Mary Kelly, the last canonical victim of Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Police presence had intensified in white chapel, but everybody was still completely terrified almost a year later.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at 1250 on the morning on July 17th, 1889, police constable Walter Andrews found a woman's body in Castle Alley just off a white chapel high street.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was laying near a lamp post her skirt had been pulled up.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was blood across her thigh and abdomen coming from a wound that ran in a zigzag pattern from below her left breast to her navel and her throat had been cut.
[SPEAKER_00]: her name was Alice McKinsey.
[SPEAKER_00]: I already said that.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was about 40 years old and was known in the neighborhood as clay pipe Alice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this on account that she was always smoking a clay pipe and a clay pipe was found on her body.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was definitely her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, so then if we go back to to pearly poll, what was she smoking then?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's these questions
[SPEAKER_00]: I just love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so British.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she was a sex worker just to confirm that that is the other common feature here.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had been living for several years with a man named John McCormick who came forward to identify the body.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was very upset with her death very sincerely upset.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also mentioned that she had gone out the previous evening after a slight quarrel between them and that she had to
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was not seriously considered a suspect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say that because people will naturally be like, ah, this John McCormick, that I who's he, but he was not seriously considered.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there were plenty of things that proved he was not the killer.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also said that they thought the reason they thought is because she was drinking heavily, and he's been trying to get her to cut down on her drink.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened next?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sort of showed that there was a bit of a fracture in Scotland Yard, the investigators, because people believed different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: The police commissioner James Monroe came to the scene himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: He examined the body and later that day, he sent a report stating that he was personally inclined to believe that this was Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Thomas Bond, who had examined Mary Kelly's remains back in November, also examined Alex McKenzie, and he agreed with Monroe that this was Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, Dr. George Baxter Phillips, a police surgeon who had also been present for some of the murders in 1888, examined the body, and reached the complete opposite conclusion.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said the wounds were not severe enough, and that the mutilation was superficial compared to previous victims.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Robert Anderson, who was head of C.I.D., who he suspected, I think it was Cosminsky, one of the famous suspects in Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: He thought Cosminsky was the killer, and Cosminsky was a locked up at this point, so he's like, it's not Jack the Ripper, because it's that guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know who Jack the Ripper is, it's not him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he didn't believe it was Jack the Ripper either.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sort of the case for this being Jack the Ripper is that the throat was cut, abdomen was attacked, body found outdoors at night in these sort of neighborhoods that he was a frequent user of and found in the same position as some of the other victims.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course some of the high ranking investigators believed that it was Jack the Ripper, the case against.
[SPEAKER_00]: is that this fairly superficial zigzag pattern slash was just not like the ripper at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: The ripper would focus on the abdomen and specifically like reproductive organs where this did not it did not do that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of people have talked about how serial killers progress, like you see that with the zipper case, like each victim kind of gets a little worsening in you, you have this climax with Mary Kelly, whereas this almost goes back, this retreats in sort of style and substance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so that is kind of a knock against the ripper and there's also a timeline because Mary Kelly was killed in November and then it stopped and here it is almost a year later.
[SPEAKER_00]: So why, why so much time, why was it this big gap when he was so frequent in 1888?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it almost sounds like it could be a copycat killer, like someone that got off by learning about Jack the ripper and seeing it
[SPEAKER_02]: It also sounds like everyone investigated it was a little bit lazy that they were like, I don't really, I mean, I'm tired guys, what does, I mean, what month was it again?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is in, uh, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that is a very astute observation, because I get that feeling with a lot of, even more, outside of victims that we're not even gonna talk about today.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does seem like people just wanna like lump them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I say people, I mean, investors, investigators at the time, but also modern investigators that go back and read about this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does seem like it's, ah, it's Jack the Ripper, because it's a fascinating story to say that, but also with investigators, it is a bit of a lazy thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: have a nice little box to put these things in to explain them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of dealing with the hard fact of like, no, there could be multiple murderers out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then that's terrifying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like not only is it one person, what if there's another person and it's like, I mean, everyone would have their clay pipes and what did she smoke again?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah,
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that leads us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how that transition us from a clay pipe to the next victim, but we're going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: On February 13th, 1891, a woman named Francis Coles was murdered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Francis Coles was 31 years old, and like everybody else, she was struggling to live, to support herself, and would often stay in the common lodging houses of white chapel.
[SPEAKER_00]: on February 11th, two days previous, she met a merchant scene and named James Sadler in the Princess Alice Pub.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were old acquaintances.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was a former client of his or wait or is he a former client of hers, however, you know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, hey.
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they spent the night together and then they spent most a February 12th on a pub crawl drinking very heavily all day long.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by evening, they started arguing and according to some versions of the story, Sadler was robbed in beaten by a group of strangers while Francis just apparently stood and watched.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I think I saw this on the episode of The Valley or The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like an episode in a reality show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, that is what makes this, I mean, that's like shows human nature doesn't change right like we're all it does not change these kind of things are all It does not change exactly so these kind of things have always happened so he was Bleeding and humiliated and very mad with Francis for probably just standing there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe even yelling at him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see her like a reality show
[SPEAKER_00]: exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they fought in their parted ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Francis had no money for a bed that night.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she was wandering the streets and at 145 in the morning on the 13th February, she ran into another street worker named Ellen Kalana on commercial street.
[SPEAKER_00]: And while they're standing together,
[SPEAKER_00]: a man described as wearing a cheese cutter hat which is like the newsy's hat kind of I had I had to look it up because I wasn't sure the Wisconsin like cheese had there that she said I'm gonna change this it was a it's a gentleman in Victorian London wearing a cheese cheese head hat No, I would love that would be amazing but now it's like a newsy hat and he approached the women and he Proposition Colana but she was like nah not right now so he punched her in the face and
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, that's terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I didn't see that one coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no one would.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, it's pretty crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he punched her in the face.
[SPEAKER_00]: He turned to Francis.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, hey, baby, what about you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And Francis was like, yeah, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you just punched my friend in the face.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see him like a nice guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, here's why I think this is so important because it just stresses again this desperation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like she needs money.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has nowhere to stay that night.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, well, hey, if I can get some pins from this dude and pay for a bed, there we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's just it's terrifying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like where's the loyalty?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where's the fucking loyalty to your buddy?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she needs a new nose.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you gonna do about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go on, because I assume the friend lives and this is okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: as actually is a good point because the friend as far as I know does does live so 25 minutes later PC Ernest Thompson heard footsteps moving away from him under the swallow garden's railway arch on Chambers Street.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, you can edit that out, but no, no, we're going to keep that in Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he shown his lantern into this dark corner where he heard these footsteps running away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although I guess I should say a torch.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the British people called a torch.
[SPEAKER_00]: They he showed his torch into the dark corner.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Francis Coles was on the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her throat cut ear to ear bleeding out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then here's the craziest part of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was still alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so he blows his is like police whistle to notify other police to come and unfortunately, by the time other officers arrived, she had passed away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, where was he with like, oh, let me like give, like take my jacket off and make a turn a kit around your neck and like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, no, I actually don't know those details.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he did try to savor in some fashion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Slow in your whistle and get in other men isn't going to help.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just put Rebecca, it's the 1880s.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Men have men are the only way to solve anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to have men around.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, I was mispoke.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm so sorry, everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: I won't have Rebecca on again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm using my feminine, what's my feminine um oh yeah I'm using my feminine emphasis
[SPEAKER_00]: After the police turned immediately after they started investigating this, they turned their sights to Thomas Sadler, the man that she had been with the night before, which I would have done too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was found the next morning in a pub, he was arrested and charged, and then there was this intense period where it seemed like everybody in London thought that he was Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is because all the local papers were like, we caught Jack, like they all had lines,
[SPEAKER_00]: and he was almost lynched because of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the problem is, is that he, his case fell apart, like he most likely is not Jack the Ripper, and then he had many reasons why he couldn't have been.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them was that he actually had proof that he had been robbed.
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't get injured because he and Francis like fought.
[SPEAKER_00]: He literally was robbed.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also had a scalp wound that corroborated a story of his that he had a violent altercation at the altercation at the dox he worked at.
[SPEAKER_00]: during I think when she was supposedly alone, so they were separated and stay with her at night.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was asking her twice that night.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it sounds like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he did.
[SPEAKER_02]: He did that.
[SPEAKER_02]: What were we at?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Poor guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also had been at sea on a ship during some of the Jack the Ripper murders.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he could not have a Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was at sea during the night.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, what are these people doing at night?
[SPEAKER_00]: And oh, he also had a knife on him, and so they thought, and because they had had some marks on it, they thought we're dried blood, it turned out to be rust, and also it was too dull to actually like cut a cut a person's throat, I should say.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for all those reasons, he was rolled out as the suspect.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting because I have read, I've seen every documentary about Jack the Ripper like I'm fascinated with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've read a lot of books and I do see his name still come up as a potential suspect this Jack the Ripper, but it's like guys, I don't, I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's too many, too many things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he was drinking his wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, he has asked hand into him twice in one night.
[SPEAKER_02]: That guy is not getting revenge.
[SPEAKER_02]: That night.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the case for Jack the Ripper is that against circumstances, outdoor, nighttime, white, chapel, sex worker, desperate woman's throat cut.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say for people that are like, oh, but there was no like abdominal craziness like Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the constable was coming by.
[SPEAKER_00]: He heard footsteps going away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was interrupted.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one reason to think of like, hey, it could have been him because the throat was cut.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it could have been a Ripper connection there.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, the case against Ripper is that the police, the police surgeon, Dr. Baxter Phillips examined the body and concluded that the nature of the wound and the posture of the body did not connect to any previous victim in the series of Ripper victims.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also in the case of Elizabeth Stride, who was the victim that he killed, and then he was interrupted and Jack the Ripper
[SPEAKER_00]: He sought out somebody else.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't able to fulfill his fantasy or whatever he's trying to do, so he had to continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had to do it that night, whereas that didn't happen in this case.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that kind of points against Jack the Ripper if you're keeping points here.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not a point for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jack is losing.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also the guy that Elana calana, like I said, that assaulted her and then left with Francis, that to me is like the most likely suspect and I don't think if you're this massive serial killer like Jack the Ripper, I don't think you're going to be such an obvious.
[SPEAKER_00]: like suspect by punching a lady and then grabbing another one to go kill like it just seems a little too on the nose because the woman that you punched saw you so I don't I don't know that to me just doesn't seem right on your fist your fist his fist saw her nose so like yeah definitely yeah I wouldn't think so it seems
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously, this guy is a shithead, doesn't respect women, but yeah, I don't, and also the cheese hat, I feel like, who's wearing Swiss cheese on their head?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like Jack the Ripper has always been known to have like, um, Abraham Lincoln hat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I'm wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I thought that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's top hat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Top hat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the way they depict them, but no one knows because no one knows who Jack the Ripper is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, that's just kind of a great artistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: license to take.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's worked because that's what I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I do too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are all the women I was going to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't going to go into more.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, there's 11 in the white chapel murders themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also other victims that people that.
[SPEAKER_00]: research Jack the Ripper brought up.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's people that talk about killings in America and Scotland and you know there's all these sensational stories that I think mostly come about because it helps sell books and TV shows and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reason I liked these three is because they were there at the time the right circumstances, the same kind of women and the same desperate situations.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so to me, there is a there is a chance that the same killer killed these women.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I really believe it was him, but I do think there's a chance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I wouldn't be shocked if one day we were able to get DNA evidence and blah, blah, blah, and connect the dots.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I begin leaning mostly towards the first one, Martha.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, because I do have my belief on who he is also, but I'm opening up my mind to other people, but I feel like Martha may be, but it's also just like, it was such a short time that he was a serial killer, so it would make sense that it might have been longer if there was more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: because it's also fascinating that nobody came forward and the people that like, they say that the murders ended because they went to, they were locked up and nobody ever really could fest it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know, it just, it seems like their could have definitely been more and the person that did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: died before they could ever like confess or or when they're obviously they're on stable.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, I'm definitely leaning towards Martha as maybe like I do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think out of the three of them that I shared today, Martha to me is the most likely because it shows a bit of a progression in how he killed women and you know, sort of, again, it sort of climaxes in the Mary
[SPEAKER_00]: no one really sort of saw things and no one had admitted to anything and blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually want you to read something else.
[SPEAKER_00]: So on that famous mail, yeah, this is for that there's a case called the Pinchin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it Pinchin?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to pull up my notes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say it wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Pinchin Street, Torso.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is one of the famous murders.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was probably part of another series of murders that I want to cover on my
[SPEAKER_00]: that there was a woman who would it was basically just like part of a body found underneath this archway.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was on September 10th, 1889, so it's almost a year after the Jack the Ripper cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I gave you a quote from a newspaper only because there were so many people that thought they saw Jack the Ripper.
[SPEAKER_00]: or like so many and they're you can look and old newspapers and people are like oh it's that guy he's a fat guy and I don't like him and he's checked the river because he doesn't like men and like there's a ton of stuff like that a lot of it anti-semitic and it's even where like a lot of our famous suspects for today actually started with anti-semitism back then and we've just sort of lost touch with that over the years like Kazman skis one of them he's one of the famous suspects well
[SPEAKER_00]: Rightly or wrongly, like maybe he really was Jack the Ripper I'm not saying, but the reason they started targeting people like him is because of juice like they were They were like, oh, it's got to be a Jew and there's even police saying that in newspapers or like this is obviously one of these immigrant Jews and they just it's it's it's just so soaked and like racism.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, long story short is I want you to read this story after the pension street tour so it was found from the newspaper the Sunday people which this article is from September 22nd 1889 After warm up
[SPEAKER_02]: The supposed assassin lived with a friend of Dr. Forbes, Winslow, and his gentleman and this gentleman himself told the doctor that he had noticed the man's strange behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: He would at times sit down and write 50 or 60 sheets of manuscript about low women for whom he professed to have a great hatred.
[SPEAKER_02]: Shortly before the body was found in Pinchin Street last week, the man disappeared, leaving behind him the articles already mentioned, together with the manuscript, which the doctor said was the exact, in exactly the same handwriting as Jack the Ripper letters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Emphasis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Emphasis.
[SPEAKER_02]: Emphasis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that quote from that newspaper article.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, there were a lot of people being like, I know who Jack the Ripper is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of which, I have to ask you now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do you think Jack the Ripper is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you have this theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's Montague, John, Durrit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Druid?
[SPEAKER_00]: Druid.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's Druid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Druid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Druid?
[SPEAKER_00]: Druid?
[UNKNOWN]: Druid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Only because mental illness ran in his family, his mother had to be locked up when he was like young.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that could start as a therapist.
[SPEAKER_02]: That starts with abandonment issues that could also start with a hatred of women because he's not there.
[SPEAKER_02]: His father was a surgeon.
[SPEAKER_02]: so there's also the chance that he watched from his father and learned how to take out body parts.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think he committed suicide shortly afterwards.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's why that was like my like, and also he was kind of handsome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, great people like he's kind of he had like that butt chin like who doesn't like a question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um and like I feel like he could easily have charmed women a little before, you know, like the the handsome serial killers that are that now I can't remember his name.
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 Sunday.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um yeah, like Ted Bundy, who was attractive and like people overlooked that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's my theory.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what's your theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't have one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been I've been following this for so long and I I love reading about them and even researching just this episode where I was focusing on these victims and I'm like just reading about these women and the stories about them and watching videos about them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't paying attention to like theories about who Jack the Ripper is, but then I would find myself being like, oh, here's a tab for for suspects that I would go and like click on that and go through them again, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've always floated around the Cosminsky guy I mentioned earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: drew it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are two of the big ones that always come up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always kind of bounce around.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you ever saw this, but there's a documentary for television.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like a one-part documentary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they made two parts.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was about the author who's name.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm now blanking on who writes these like crime novels and she believes it is, um, I can't remember his name.
[SPEAKER_00]: Walter's sicker.
[SPEAKER_00]: Walter's, she believes Walter's sicker is the, is the, is the
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe he's Jack the Ripper at all, but I loved that documentary so much, and I thought it found it fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to me, it's a lot of confirmation bias.
[SPEAKER_00]: She really believes it's him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like she's only seeing what kind of fits that, but it's still a fascinating theory that I just love to sort of read about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Michael, I have some good news.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have Jack the Ripper with me right here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Come on out,
[SPEAKER_00]: This is big.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is big for the show Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stop it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We solved it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also think it'd be like, interested if like you ever went to a psychic or at a or like a past life's person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, oh, oh, by the way, you would check the river.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'd be like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Jesus.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Jesus, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
[SPEAKER_00]: So, well, that being said, I still feel like we didn't talk about the victims enough for back home.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you're just never going to succeed in that, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like... Well, but I feel like so they just, they have a musical right now about Henry VIII's wives called The Six, and it's all about them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we need a musical called The Five.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some others.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they could just like sing and dance and, you know, drink and sex work and then get murdered, but at least it would bring their their names out into like pop your culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_00]: There should be a musical.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also I think that sort of takes, you know, it's nice to take a kind of light parted approach to these older, very nasty murders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's important to share the stories, but we also have to be able to digest it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So being turning it into a musical is a, I think, it's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we can also make fun of Jack the Ripper that awful douchebag.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and the reason why you didn't have sex with any of the women is because his penis didn't work and it was really tiny.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is actually a very good theory, by the way, that is a very valid theory, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in terms of like, obviously, there's a lot of hatred for women, not just because of the killings themselves, but also the way he would target the reproductive organs, like that to me is so specific.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, because that's the ultimate, I mean, you're you're murdering them, but then you're really like disrespecting them by taking away like the one thing that makes women different than men, you know, like the one thing that we have that you guys should that touch.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very hard while to bear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I only read about this researching this episode, but apparently there's a term I should have written and down is now, I don't remember, for sexual gratification for like cutting into something and so some people with theorized like because he,
[SPEAKER_00]: we think he may not have had sex with these women that there was still sexual gratification that came across in the murders themselves from the act of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it is not as not pretty.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not pretty.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not pretty.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not pretty.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you for trying to do some accents.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get to do terrible accents myself on this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm saying mine would have been terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Years were fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had feminine essence, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had feminine fur sauce.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much for doing this for Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to take up too much else of your time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do want to share one quick story about you though, if I can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Rebecca lives in my neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one day, I don't, you may not even remember this, but to me it's so funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't have my glasses on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you were walking by sort of past my backyard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you said, like, hey, Michael, or whatever I heard my name, I look out and I asked, like, who is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, like, I don't, I obviously didn't know who you were.
[SPEAKER_02]: your friend wasn't that long ago, by the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that was in my last year.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me, probably.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was blocking one of my kids to school.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, I just, I just wanted some attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was taking care of two little kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted someone to notice me, to see me for who I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I saw you, I was like, yeah, when you're like, who
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, it's really sad because I don't have the worst eyes, but you were not far.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you were far away, but I still couldn't figure out who you were right away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm so sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: I forgot about it till now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and now, to remember, I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about it and I get goals.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much for doing this Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love your point of views on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was glad I had somebody to join me on this story of Jack the Ripper, because this would not have been a fun one to do by myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, is there, do you want people to find you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything you want to like promote?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they can follow me on tiktok or Instagram at at hot pants world if they're interested in therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can find me at ourlifeafterbirth.com or they can email me at Rebecca at ourlifeafterbirth.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: So comedy or therapy, I do both.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you get some sort of client from her patient.
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you not patient's patients?
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you get a client from a Jack the Ripper podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: You never know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you, Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will talk to you soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to a study of strange.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have any other of the potential victims of Jack the Ripper, that you would like to hear me talk about, send me an email at a study of strange at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Additionally, if you have experienced something paranormal, something frightening, an interesting story that deals with strange scary things, email me as well, a study of strange at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am starting to compile some ideas for a Halloween episode
[SPEAKER_00]: where you might be able to be on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you again for listening and good night.