[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody you got Carly and CC here today with lots of juicy stuff to talk about, you know, we should have placed a wager on if we could ever go a week without talking about AI it was kind of a running joke for a while there now it is very clear very clear that we will not ever be going week without talking about it unless we are not recording and it is that simple.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think anyone would have taken that, but though, late.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or they would have been like, what are these agents even talking about in terms of the modern publishing landscape?
[SPEAKER_01]: But we've got some fun things to talk about today.
[SPEAKER_01]: This kind, I'm not sure if this looked into people's radar or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the New York Times has made some changes to their bestseller list, which I think we have to alert everybody too.
[SPEAKER_01]: A kind of what, as I said, I'm not sure if it went a little bit out of notice, I think the news went live the week before Easter, so I think it slipped into the radar a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we got, I know I got a lot of DMs about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you got a lot of DMs about this, which is the editors using AI internally to assess main new scripts, bookseller article.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've got lots of, lots of things going on, and then we have a really interesting breakdown.
[SPEAKER_01]: On Substack, 60 debut authors were involved in a survey about the breakdown of the revances and things like that, which is really juicy and interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you want to pay attention through the whole episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got lots of good stuff going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: But CC, I know you are making your monthly pilgrimage to New York next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you have on top for that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Gosh, I have a really fun book launch on Tuesday.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to plug it in because it's sold out or else I totally would.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I also have meetings, just meetings, meetings, meetings, lunches, drinks, you know how it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as an introvert, it's both really challenging for me, but at the same time like really fun because I discovered I've said this before that
[SPEAKER_02]: Talking to book people does not drain me in the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Talking to regular people does.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's actually quite energizing and lovely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm still tired by the end, but it's like one of those worth it tired.
[SPEAKER_02]: I imagine it feels like it's what you're equivalent of going to the gym for healthy people.
[SPEAKER_02]: where you're like, you know, feeling good about yourself at the end, I wouldn't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I have lots of fun meetings and, yeah, I'm really excited to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you do it next week?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you will be in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will be in Toronto because my client, my book is coming out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay!
[SPEAKER_01]: Cleo, Dan, would rather be that, can we talk about what a great cover that is?
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a great cover.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the green and the yellow and it's like, and I know what it's about.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's the wedding people vibes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're the wedding people everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of like going under in the water and then has her champagne glass and up in the air.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that like
[SPEAKER_01]: This character on Cleodang cover is horizontal.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're like, is she sleeping?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is she okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is she just laying there?
[SPEAKER_01]: But kind of also is these bright yellow socks on and the colors are so bright and vibrant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, they nailed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what, like, as an agent, sometimes the covers come in and you're like, this is not the cover, but this one, they just nailed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did such a great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: So was it from the first try?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it like first round?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, publishers usually have things going on behind the scenes that we don't see, but this was the first one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first one you saw.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's exciting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go my, go my, I'm proud of her and I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't go.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so the event, the actual launch event, is Tuesday for everybody that's listening when this comes out live, which is Monday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Tuesday tomorrow, the 14th, it is an open launch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anybody can come.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anybody who isn't downtown Toronto that wants to come, Simon and Tuesday, Canada is asking that people RSPP, but you can go to my Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: at the YM-A-I-N-G-U-Y-E-N, which is like 5-min win.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go to her Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see all the information.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will be there and it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also made a note of what I'm reading because I feel like we don't talk enough about what we're reading just for fun right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I grabbed evening and weekends.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had read that one that came out a couple years ago, said in the UK, I'm really excited to dive into that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my copy of American Fantasy M.A.
[SPEAKER_01]: Strabs novel just arrived.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of what's on my bedside TBR.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you reading right now?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just started yesterday, which I'm really excited about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had yesterday actually a client, we were on Zoom.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a shared client that I have with Wendy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And our client was like, hey, so I have a new project.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I have two.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, one's dystopian, one's romance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was like, which one should I send first?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, just send it home.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I want to read both of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: She made both of them so, so good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, not every author can pitch their own book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally pitch their own work, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially like in a casual call, I can prefer anything, but she was like she nailed the pictures and I'm like really excited to read them both so I have both of them on my Kindle.
[SPEAKER_02]: So coin toss, I don't know which one I'm going to start.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm going to probably do the women's fiction with romantic elements first, because I actually said that wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's women's fiction with romantic elements and the stupidity.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I'm going to do good.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice and sunny out, you know, we're trying to make spring happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm going to start with that one first.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love reading on my Kindle.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really good for the readability aspect of it, which does matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I like the feel of a book because I read on ebook so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so I read, and I do mean, sorry, what I say, Kindle, I mean my Kindle app.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kindle app on the iPad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, because I have an iPad.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I read so many ebooks that to me, honestly, for like over 15 years now, most of the books I read are ebooks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the feel of a book that
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, for modern C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: has become an ebook and so when I'm reading on my Kindle app, I I really love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like so great.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm excited about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always read in the evenings.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always like watching TV with my husband for like an hour in the evenings and then I tell him you have to go to bed early for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm worried about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I have a lot of reading to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then I go to bed and I read it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the best.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then you're never sleep because you're always reading.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't read on an iPad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've done the iPad thing before, but I just find the the technology piece sucks me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, this app and then you can switch to this and I love the candle, the physical candle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have the scribe, which has a pen, so I can annotate.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes me feel like I'm in work mode, so that wouldn't do other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps to immortalize it for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I wrote in our notes today.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're pretty organized today.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, I've been a chemist on the back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, our notes today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have some top secret news that we do draw roles for top secret news.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, number one top secret news is I have a client.
[SPEAKER_01]: book that is in adaptation for television and it's like been humming along, coming along, coming along.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to find out in November if it's going to be green lip.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know this is still a while away and we have to wait for a lot of good vibes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just one, you know, all the good things and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everybody's going to be lots of good vibes because I know you all want to see my clients work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pratt to life on the silver screen, yeah, finger crossed everybody for that to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we never know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have been lucky enough to have works turned into television and movies and you just never know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think I talked before about the percentage of books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've done like 25 options and just like I've seen two things made.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like the odds are not great in terms of getting things done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're at the the home stretch here and the hard thing is so much work could go into this in terms of like the vision and everything and then you can get to like the 11 hour and then I'm like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope, we're not picking this up.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, okay, great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we just, you know, tons of tons of work into this, but um, but yeah, anyway, so everybody keep your fingers crossed for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second piece of top secret news that I have is that I am going to get my second client billboard in Times Square.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, yeah, those have been listening for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Know that my client Jane Healey had a billboard in Times Square for Women of Arlington Hall, which was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so exciting to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to see it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was so cool, because I...
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you shared a picture.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you shared a picture on stories, but it wasn't you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha got
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to go see the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as the agent, I'm like my proxy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really want to see you that the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I might have to go see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, so my client, my second time to wear a billboard, is going to be happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so that's all my top secret news.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you find fun fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't tell us who yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's top secret news and top secret curiosity seeds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, why don't we start with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as I said, I think this flew under the radar a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you know, there's I it's not only that I want to talk about the announcement.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to talk about why the announcement was what, you know, made and how we can give you some context and some behind the scenes potentially about what is going to be featured more than others now and how that.
[SPEAKER_01]: communicate some of the different trends that are happening within the industry at the consumer marketplace.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to read from the New York Times website.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think updates to our best other lists.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're introducing some new lists and they're quote, better positioning others to reflect shifts in the book selling industry and quote.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're basically like going to be cutting some of the lists.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is what I went live on March 30th.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's been with audiobooks, making up a larger share of how people consume books.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are broadening our audio offerings by adding to new lists, audio children's top 15, and audio advice how to a miscellaneous top 10.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of thoughts about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: These additions round out our coverage of the audiobook segment, which currently includes audio fiction and audio non-fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: and reflect the time's goal to publish lists that cover different formats through which readers and increasing listeners purchase books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second paragraph, to better align with current market trends.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will cease publication of our monthly mass market lists, and the weekly paperback nonfiction lists will shift to monthly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mass market and nonfiction paperback books will continue to be eligible to appear and the combined print and ebook lists overall lists.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I mean, I feel like that is kind of bombshell news, and we can get into all the layers of all of this, like what was kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: promoted above other things, what's getting canceled or to mode it obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do you want to start, which one jumped out to you?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot of thoughts like you said.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my first thought was little late to the game with the audio.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad they did it now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really am like adding things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, audiobooks have been kind of kind of a thing for a while and kind of a massive thing for a while, so I would have hoped to see it and I'm glad they did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing about the lip, the thing about the New York Times List is that it's so, like it's so shrouded in secrecy.
[SPEAKER_02]: like it's it is not a situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's every author's dream.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone I talked to ago is yes and my dream is to become a New York Times best selling author.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet people don't quite understand how the chances of getting in are very, very, very, small.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I forget what the actual statistic is, but there was one time an article agreed article that broke it down and it was something like depressing like point zero or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it was gonna say it's like point something something something something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lots of zeros and then a number, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, but you know, more to the point though, it's not just the numbers game is in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like if you qualify for the Olympics, yeah, chances of you running that fast is 0.001.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, if you do or if you don't, because you either run that fast or you don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: In this case, it's also like, there are certain books.
[SPEAKER_02]: They will consider it in certain books.
[SPEAKER_02]: They won't.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's curate, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they don't hide that fact.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, you know, something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: People didn't hire anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think people realize that that much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it is not simply XYZ in sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you'll need the list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also it depends on the week and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm how to be interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: What were you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, lots of thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of what you said is obviously true.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a long time listener to our show or our socials, you know what that information about how the time sources vary, you have it, you curate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I think is super interesting about the audio piece, a couple things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know where to start my brain's just buzzing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's talk about the fact that they are creating the audio advice how to a miscellaneous.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is essentially gonna be the podcaster celebrity category, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't gonna be
[SPEAKER_01]: for the kind of average person, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because this is going to be audio of people who have done an advice how to a miscellaneous, which is always the kind of influencer type of category, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's obviously very important to think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're really just promoting things that maybe don't necessarily are didn't you promoting.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing this makes me think about is, where are they getting all this audio data?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we know that most people have a subscription to audible, have a subscription to... Libro.
[SPEAKER_01]: Libro is supporting Indies, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Audible is obviously supporting Amazon.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm wondering, again, where they're gonna pull all this data from, if it's just Libro FM,
[SPEAKER_01]: that puts a lot of pressure on that system to, you know, if you're an author listening to this and I, and you're hearing this, I would be promoting my audiobook through Librarow FM like nobody's business because if you have that opportunity, especially obviously if you're in the how to a miscellaneous advice section, but anyway, so yeah, I think about what kind of data they're actually going to pull from.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a little bit the same issue we see with books can, like I'm a big fan of books can because I love having a database where I can go in and nerd out about statistics and figures, but
[SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to the audio numbers because they don't capture from audible in terms of credits, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like who's using what credit for what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just so wildly inaccurate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: At least I assume it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously it would need to see every reality statement to compare it against every, and I can't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's tricky.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so let's pivot to the second paragraph there, which is ceasing publication of the monthly mass market list and the weekly paperback non-fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, there's a couple things that I'm clocking here, which is less nonfiction is being turned into paperback.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of nonfiction is published in hardcover and sometimes never goes into a second print run, where it was used to always be that, you know, the hardcover print run would go and then they would do the paperback print run.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not guaranteed that everything is going to be turned into paperback these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, they're assuming you're either buying it in hardcover or you're buying it in audio, which is kind of weathered.
[SPEAKER_01]: popping up those audio lists and making that more central.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is that's market.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the mass market.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ray, let's say I'm sad about mass market.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for a long time and we reported on this, I don't know if you can call the show reporting.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have commented on this show about just the lack of support for mass market and how that is declined over the years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that's about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I will not pretend to understand the reasons behind their decision, but mass market is tied to mass readership, and I can't help but think, and I know that it's in decline.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was another New York Times article from February that talked about the decline of mass market after back readership, and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And can we please have a world where we have lots of mass market?
[SPEAKER_02]: I, one of my favorite things to do is to talk to people who have been doing this for a lot longer than I have, like they've been in aging tank for for many decades.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the stories of days where agents would get to sell paperback rights for millions of dollars, like, that's so great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why wasn't I alive then?
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to get a time machine, this is what I would do, this is what I would do if I had a time machine situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would go back in the beginning in the era of the 90s.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it was that people were paying lines of dollars for like all the rich.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they used to be so separate, and there was more competition.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if we're going to go down the rabbit hole of going into the past, then it is like, I mean, having more competition to be able to sell these books to would be great, to be able to sell paperback rates, I mean, oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I want.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I want.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just get in our time machine.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a fiction thought, guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a not fiction thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we are ranked on fiction on sub stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's hear a word from our sponsors and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about all the juicy stuff about our editors actually putting manuscripts into AI.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody, welcome back as promised.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get into the bookseller article.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it came out on April 2nd.
[SPEAKER_01]: It said some editors uploading confidential manuscripts to chat GPT to read quickly agent claims written by Eloise Wood and published in the bookseller.
[SPEAKER_01]: The book seller is, you know, for those of you that don't know, the kind of official word of U.K. publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in article kind of, this is like an equivalent of something coming out in publishers weekly or Quill and Clire, if you're in Canada.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is, you know, that considered a series publication for book people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a very serious accusation.
[SPEAKER_01]: C.C.
[SPEAKER_01]: did you get a chance to look at this one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to give out some on what it said?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, so, you know, the article started with Gordon Wise, who's an agent at Curtis Brown, voicing concerns that some editors might be allegedly using chatGPT to assess the quality of manuscripts before reading them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they would feed the manuscripts into OpenAI to essentially like through a quality check.
[SPEAKER_02]: It also flagged how some parties, including some agents, might be feeding
[SPEAKER_02]: manuscripts into apps and software such as speechify to listen to these admission as opposed to by justing it with their eyes ahead of reading it with their eyes, which is a little concerning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I want to clarify what I just said because I'm happy article in front of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said some people including agents, that's not true.
[SPEAKER_02]: The article said that editors do the
[SPEAKER_02]: which is where I got that from.
[SPEAKER_02]: So because I have heard from a few agents that I know many that I love and was fact and who are great, that they have fed it, fed the manuscript.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they viewed some type of app.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually don't know that it's speech by, but they used some type of app.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like a text to speech.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, to listen to my music.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've never done it and this is I wish I could say it was because of principle moral stamps isn't I never thought about the implications I should have I never did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like the text to speech I don't it doesn't work for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like reading with my eyes when it comes to submissions.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's important to me But yeah, I anyway so the article kind of takes us through it and I will say it does have a very interesting point about how
[SPEAKER_02]: A.I.
[SPEAKER_02]: language in their contracts should agencies have authors and disclose whether they used AI or not.
[SPEAKER_02]: One could argue that because so many of these contracts likely have language saying the work is original that that is implied, but you know in an age where everyone's been using AI, that's a little bit tricky.
[SPEAKER_02]: As well, there are some titles that you really just can't have a blanket AI clause, like you really miss this
[SPEAKER_02]: The article talks about an example of, for example, scientists who are writing about AI and have actually done tests in AI to write the book, right, like they talk about how AI functions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, of course, they could never say that no part of that book has been used, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that would not be reasonable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like, you know, this is where our nuance comes in and critical thinking, and that's what's important.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's really the article.
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate it reading it a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't tell if just my corner of the internet or what things get sent to me are people who are just, I don't know how to say like in the discourse, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just like, hey, they're so online that they're just taking in so much of this content.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of this stuff, while I do not support, condone, or endorse, is things that I assumed that were going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think on this show before, I've said that I know that there are editors who used closed AI systems, like their internal AI software, to write tag lines.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've known for a while that editors are using in-house tools.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is different though, to use in-house versus open.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, exactly, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's a key piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, as I said, I can't tell if it's just like, what corner of the internet is kind of up in arms about things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to quote, Agent Gordon Wise from the article.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said,
[SPEAKER_01]: In the same way we ask our clients to tell us if any AI was used in the course of writing their work, we expect transparency from publishers too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Editors uploading confidential manuscripts and to chat to BT or other open AI platforms in order to help them quote read and quote books quickly is not responsible behavior given the security risks involved in handing over such property to a third party.
[SPEAKER_01]: But disturbingly, conversations over the course of London book fair have indicated that this seems to have become a widely adopted practice and quote.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really surprising to me to be honest.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what's most open?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was because I felt that people would be afraid of their jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I'm an editor working, again, I'm thinking of meaning about it from a selfish perspective, not like a moral perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm an editor working at a publisher, I don't want to put my job in jeopardy and open up myself and the publisher to liability.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would not want to feed it to opening it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, it is different if it's a closed,
[SPEAKER_02]: program.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that's always okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying that it's just such a different category, that's the same conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it would be scared of losing my job, the liability wouldn't you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think everyone would.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I'm paranoid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's one of those things where it's like the erosion of our sensibilities in our anger towards this software.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just technology general has changed over time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because
[SPEAKER_01]: We've just accepted so much of it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's, we know that, you know, that things are tracking us on our computers all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I forget the word, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh God, it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a word for this, but you know, it has followers around wherever we go with the internet.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be saying something and then an ad shows up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how it's gonna be moving.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to everyone I know, like we talk about things and things show up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this footprint follows us around the internet, right, we know this, this is like confirmed information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think over time, we've just become less angry about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know why we just continue to accept how software and technology in general has just taken over our lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people are just, and because there's such a blend of our work life, quote, unquote balance these days, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We use a lot of people use the same,
[SPEAKER_01]: software for home as they do for work right like people used to have like oh your work computer was at work and it wasn't laptop You didn't take it home a lot of people right you're taking your software and hardware back and forth with you because you have to do work at home You know people are in hybrid work environments with this this blur between the work and the home and the work and the self is really just non-existent
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, people such as you and me right we use our social media for both things.
[SPEAKER_01]: We use all of our computers for all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think people have just unfortunately become less angry about this and and it's just it's really unfortunate that we're just accepting how technology is just taking over our lives and people think well if I could read faster if I can review manuscripts faster than is that just a net benefit and I'm going to way that moral difference in my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's it's it's really sad and I agree with you at the same time it's very unsurprising that people aren't more angry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think because
[SPEAKER_02]: We are addicted to the technology and addicts, addicts tend to just accept new realities as long as they can keep getting the dopamine hit that comes with the thing they're addicted to.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is an addiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've been trying to do this thing where I leave my phone in another room and I literally feel it withdrawal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it is, oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I did not like that and it's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, I can't associate myself from my phone entirely because so much of my work life.
[SPEAKER_02]: is on my phone, like, try to do anything with another two-factor authentication system that's usually tied to your phone, try to, you know, live without apps.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's just really hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is, yes, a convenience, you know, need for work, but there's also, again, the addiction piece, which is, yeah, even sadder.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know, yeah, it's something that we're just going to have to continue to wrestle with in different ways and yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, obviously we talked about the kind of AI book cancellation scandal last week, but you know, if there is an editor using AI to review submission scandal, like, are we really going to hear about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it just going to be somebody's fire and or they're just recommended or depending on the level that they're at within the publishing house.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the consequences, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what this agent is mad about or not mad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm obviously totally speaking for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think why the agent is raising concerns about this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, as agents, how do we know what editors are doing with our client's work?
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, I wonder what their contracts say, you know, like their employment contracts, like I wonder if there's language, preventing them from, I'm sure there's, there's a confidential language, et cetera, but like I wonder if there are specific preferences to use of AI and on authorized platforms.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also wonder what it's going to be like for the younger generation, like one of the things that does keep publishing going and that is so important is hiring new talent, younger people who know what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and also, like, who understand what people want to read?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, you know, this, like, one of the best things about getting like a reader's report from, like, an intern or an assistant who's younger is, I'm not only getting my millennial perspective, but I'm getting their agency perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really just going to be like, gen Alpha, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because, like, gen Alpha is getting old enough to pretty soon be a part of the workforce.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just feel like it's interesting because what I've observed is that more and more, so here's what I'm trying to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember when the internet became a thing, I was really young, but I remember, and I sort of remember a world without it, but I can't live without it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, this is going to happen with AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's going to be a whole generation that's like, yeah, I remember life before AI, but I don't, not for the purposes of knowing how to live without it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, what's going to happen then?
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just integrated into everything and I think this was what, so, you know, I wrote on my sub stack about all this happening obviously we see your comments on YouTube and all this I think one of the issues that kept coming up and all the comments and captions and things that you guys were responding to was this idea of,
[SPEAKER_01]: AI is integrated into everything like you can't you don't there's no app that's like we're not using Yeah, it's like here's how to AI a five You know, and literally every app that we use and so how can we actually say So I'm talking with editors right in their work life like how can we actually say that and no part of any workflow of anything that they touch Is you being used by these things right in a lot of the AI author Contracts have the claw and AI claws in them
[SPEAKER_01]: which set like it in the publishers negotiate for them to protect themselves for their be able to their employees to be able to use some sort of internal system.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not that you can write in an author contract that nothing will be ever touched by AI because that is just not a reality and that's not what the contract is like.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so complicated.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just be getting more and more confident.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was a really good podcast episode by money fields and they had a really good episode about how to reduce your screen time that came out in early April.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like an hour and a half long episode and so many things about like how can we just make technology a little bit harder right like how do we just resist a little bit more and so I don't have threads on my phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go to my computer for threads.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have sub stack on my phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go to my computer for sub stack.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anything like that, which is not directly tied to work, but kind of tied to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't have it on my own.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any notifications on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever read dopamine nation?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually really interesting because the author talks about multiple types of addiction, especially like addiction, because what happens in the world when you're addicted to it with like the thing The thing is so readily available, which is the world, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And she actually became curious about it from a personal perspective like her experience with addiction because of weight for it Books she became addicted to romance novels and I remember being like
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a real addiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: My first shameful reaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, no, she actually did.
[SPEAKER_02]: She went through her process and I'm 1,000 percent convinced and I feel so embarrassed that I had that reaction, but I did and I want to come up to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: She did become addicted to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things she talks about is how one of the ways to combat or the plentiful supply of all the things we could ever possibly want in our world.
[SPEAKER_02]: and how we become addicted to dopamine, I don't think that's actually medically accurate.
[SPEAKER_02]: But whatever, is to make things harder, is to do what you're saying, like keep the thread.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's making it a little bit inconvenient because the fact that the supply, like if you are addicted, for example, to romance novels, the fact that you have a condol, and you can buy books anytime, you don't actually have to go to the bookstore.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, makes it makes it harder to not fall prey to the addiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even as I say, this is a good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: giant voice inside my mind going, stop telling people to not buy books.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that people please buy all the books, but you don't have to read them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Feed the authors, paint chicks, but then you don't have to read them if you have a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: But still buy all the books, please buy them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, there's so many ways to get them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Buy them as artwork.
[SPEAKER_01]: for your bookshelf.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Home decor.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's home decor.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's anything you want it to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's kind of all we can say on on that topic for today, but I'm sure there'll be next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: There'll be another article making the rounds and we always have our eye out for that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, the last thing on our list today was a sub-stack post.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know how this came across my desk, but there is a sub-stack from an author named Emily Zipz, with a Zed, Zed IPBS Emily Zipz, who did some surveying of 2025 debut authors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what they did was they did a survey of 60 people, so we're totally, you know, acknowledging it's not a massive sample size, but there's a lot of interesting information here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So 60 people who had their debut book traditionally published in the year 2025.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a part one to this data and a part two to the data.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we are doing part two of the data in this subset came out on January 28th.
[SPEAKER_01]: So CCC said you, you had came across this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you think when I posted it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You sent it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You sent it to me and I thought it was so well written.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like Emily Zips, I am not familiar with you, but now I'm going to look you up and become a fan.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, this was very good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything was broken down in a very clear way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that she started right away with the number one question everyone has.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you surveyed 60 debut authors, you know, people who debuted in 2025.
[SPEAKER_02]: the first question was like how much money did it make?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so one of the figures showed the like a pie chart with the levels of advances.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, and I encourage everyone to look at the subsdeck, I'm not going to read out all of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: You should look at this pie chart, but for example, no advance, meaning an advance of zero dollars, came out to 20% of those 60 people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: Also known as like a good deal in publishing came to 15%
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, this is where it gets interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a second pie chart in which Emily says, okay, but that's not super accurate because some books are two book deals, three book deals, four book deals.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you actually have to look at the advance per book, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the number changes significantly.
[SPEAKER_02]: No advance is still 20%, but the second number I read, so a hundred thousand to two hundred and fifty thousand in advance goes from
[SPEAKER_02]: 15% to 8%.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, it does, it does matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: The per book does matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really just highlighting this one detail in the article, because there's so much more data to say how thoughtful and how interesting this analysis was.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like 100% 60 people is not a large sample size or you consider the millions of books that were published in 2025.
[SPEAKER_02]: But hey, it's someone crunching data in a really interesting smart way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_02]: I personally loved it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to subscribe to this and start reading the subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, yeah, no, I thought it was a excellent, excellent breakdown.
[SPEAKER_01]: A couple things I wanted to highlight, which you guys might have questions about, which is where these people from.
[SPEAKER_01]: So 60% of these respondents were from the United States and 17% was from the UK.
[SPEAKER_01]: That matters because American advances are much larger than UK advances, just based on population size and market size.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is something to pay attention to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're probably
[SPEAKER_01]: 42% of these debuts were with big fives, a large subset were with, I think they called them just like smaller presses, which is why you're seeing that zero dollar number, kind of, you know, hold down that to that 20% of people were zero dollars, small presses, people don't offer advances, sometimes just royalties.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: This, you know, sample size of 60 people is obviously varied.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she said in this, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but there were no kind of like mid-range, like mid-sized publishers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was either small independence or big five, it's just based on the people that did the survey.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, lots of, lots of interesting, and I'm sure people are wondering, you know, the big advances, how many people got big advances?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was essentially one person, of the 60, if you do the breakdown of the math.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a multi-book deal
[SPEAKER_01]: two percent of the 60, which is essentially one percent.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just fun facts for everybody there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the fact that the only houses offering the zero dollar advance were big five or small indies, says a lot to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like this is getting indies.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yes and no, because if you think about the digital first imprints of some big five, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: They sometimes offer, they sometimes do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like,
[SPEAKER_02]: because that's a big five.
[SPEAKER_02]: Technically, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like is that how it counts?
[SPEAKER_02]: So then yes, it would be like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be a share of the track that I assume.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I assume.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, so that would be a $0 advanced situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it would be not a small indie press.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although, again, digital, it just, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is traditional, it is technically big five, but it's not, it's digital first.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, loopholes and things that we won't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you guys will really, really like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So definitely go check it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to know more about data, she breaks down like race of the characters, are there queer characters, all of the diversity, representation is also in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're curious about that breakdown, head over to Emily's sub stack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's everything we have for today guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we look forward to hearing what you think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You obviously know where to find us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love hearing from you on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know where to drop things in the comments below.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for hanging it with us for another week.
[SPEAKER_00]: CC Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshermon.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Colle on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.