[SPEAKER_03]: This episode is proudly brought to you by Bee Parent Services, head to BeeParentServiceie.com to learn more.
[SPEAKER_00]: love is love.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are able to be out of the authentic, that is a radical democratic action.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think being able to raise authentic children and giving your kids space to be it is absolutely radical.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this moment where everyone is telling you to get in a box, I think parents that are giving kids their space that especially those parents that are fighting in Idaho in Texas,
[SPEAKER_00]: Every moment of every day that they say it tells their kids that they love them, but they're great is radical.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, welcome, welcome, y'all to the queer family podcast to show all about family, about with gay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Jamie, and this is the show that highlights, celebrates uplifts and normalizes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lige Petiqua, families and all of our fabulous,
[SPEAKER_02]: I then to tease and I think we need stories like this more than ever right now am I right we are finding ourselves in some crazy crazy times that's why I'm so excited to
[SPEAKER_02]: Introduce this episode to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to sit down with a fabulous person, Robin Merrill, law professor, former human rights campaign attorney, author, and a person who somehow manages to be both wildly brilliant and an expert on all things that are happening in this country, and deeply relatable.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about her journey to motherhood through IVF, with her wife.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about raising her neurospicy children, as she says.
[SPEAKER_02]: and how queer families navigate identity, biology, and all the weird questions that come with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: All the things we always talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, y'all, we get into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's actually happening in our country right now, what we should be paying attention to, and why queer folks might just be the ones to save democracy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hold onto that idea, hold onto it, because we need the helpers right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the queer people might be the ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: So before I roll the tape, I do want to say, we recorded this right after they made a decision to basically legalize completely conversion therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's when we recorded this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Since then, more crazy stuff has gone, like the mad king saying that he's gonna demolish an entire civilization of people and then backtracking on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: like I'm recording this intro about three days before the episode goes live.
[SPEAKER_02]: So who knows what has happened since then.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if we don't touch on that in this episode, it's only because we recorded a headed time and things are happening so rapidly at this point as you all know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just take that with a great of salt and I hope nothing crazy has happened since then.
[SPEAKER_02]: But
[SPEAKER_02]: In these times, you can never be too sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I hope you enjoy this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: My biggest takeaway with this conversation is it is more important than ever now to speak up and speak out if you can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if you feel like a squeaky wheel like I do all the time, continue talking about these things, continue bringing up the ludicrousy of everything that is happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: in the hopes that those who are on the other side who haven't realized it yet will finally have the courage to change their minds and see reality for what it is in it's a hope and also give folks the space to change their minds and lead with compassion which is so hard right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I know y'all are out there doing the good work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to do the good work and I'm trying to stay sane.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really, it's a great conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, Helen, Bula, come here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Clear family, but good, love is love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: No thanks, thanks for being here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to chat, and you're like buttoned up and together, and you're like in a true like sound recording studio, which is fabulous.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know why I am looking enough to teach at Will Amit outside of Portland and our art school has a studio that I'm able to use.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so jealous because you see my studio is just a bedroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's it's it's really great if I will say the last interview I did I have a little thing that says like don't come in I'm interviewing and a group of and some arts schools so it's like a group of super cool queer looking high schoolers like shuffled in and stood right there and the tour guide was talking and I had to tell the first and I was interviewing I was like I really care about this and I also want to be really welcoming
[SPEAKER_00]: and wave at these children that are clearly super excited to see this nerdy law professor doing this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it gives the illusion that I that it's that it's real.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're just like me, we get interrupted by my dog regularly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's also why I don't do it at home because my 11-year-old is homeschooling this year, and so he's always home, and he's nervous, spicy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've never actually heard Neural Spicy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that term.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good, I feel like it's like queer.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a good umbrella term, because I have two of them that are so different and yet they're both very narrow-spacey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, let's get into it, because I want everybody at home to know who you are and why you're here to, I feel like we were getting a good, a good,
[SPEAKER_02]: teaser of who you are, but let's just do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get into your 30 second elevator pitch.
[SPEAKER_02]: So tell us who, oh, you have a book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I, oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: You wrote down.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't, I told I'm an over-prepared.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't just have a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, I'm such a nerd for my birthday last year.
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife got me.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, remade notebooks that look like, um, Virginia wool snow books.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are that level.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are that level for
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you ready?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get set.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so ready.
[SPEAKER_02]: And go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey there, I'm Robin Merrill.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a law professor and a writer and I host the podcast, a queer guy to saving democracy.
[SPEAKER_00]: My book is coming out this fall just in time for the midterms, which is a queer guy to saving American democracy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm lucky enough to live in beautiful Portland, Oregon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Before teaching, I worked for nearly a decade in DC, queer, and trans policy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a lawyer at the Human Rights Campaign.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I saw his lawyer through marriage of quality in the first four years of Trump.
[SPEAKER_00]: Children and a wonderful life.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And wow, we're going to get into this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to, you know, a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're an actual expert, whereas I just felt things that I'm not sure are true.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're an expert.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get into things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because these are some scary times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, but a real one.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are some scary times we find ourselves in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really excited for our conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gotten so real so fast and I think it's one of those I thought that it was really bad in 2017.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's like a meme going around where it's like there's a person talking Animatedly to another person and the other person's like this like like Like 20 26 is talking to 2020 like you don't believe you can't believe this shit You can't believe it and we thought it was so bad is that funny?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like how is it the George W Bush?
[SPEAKER_00]: is who I want to be president right now like I would take him also I think I like him more than I know that he's taken up painting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you know this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've heard that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but he's taken up painting like in his retirement which does make me like a more.
[SPEAKER_02]: All of a sudden he seems like a dream.
[SPEAKER_02]: Seriously like I like bring him back.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will take him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will take him out as dad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's bring him back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bring him back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into all the the shit show that America has become and the and the democracy and all the stuff let's have like a little overview of of your family building journey because you are a clear mom
[SPEAKER_02]: I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to hear you and your wife's journey to Perry Hood if I may.
[SPEAKER_02]: How long have you two been together?
[SPEAKER_00]: We got married in 2010.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been together.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just celebrated celebrate our 16th earlier this month, March 9th, which was actually the day, the first day that you could get married in DC is when we got married.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we actually got married at the courthouse and then when you could which was exciting we had our first in fall of 2014 ended up doing IVF because I feel like
[SPEAKER_00]: like everyone fertility is crazy fertility is a crazy journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I want to dig in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like yeah, it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're also like because we did IVF and so we only need to do one round of agriculture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Both of my children are actually technically twins, which is I'm sure is the story for a lot of people, which is really fun because it means that my eight-year-old was frozen for three years, which blows his mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so fun for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, he loves it.
[SPEAKER_00]: My older one, everyone's probably supposed to just be thinking, we'll say things like, I mean, that explains a lot, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, don't be mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: That tracks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our kids are pretty much the same age.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have it minus 12, and my little one is eight, eight, and I know that scene so well.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm catching which it thrown.
[SPEAKER_02]: But wait, I want to backtrack.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what was the conversation surrounding?
[SPEAKER_02]: family building between you and your wife.
[SPEAKER_02]: When did you start that conversation?
[SPEAKER_02]: In your relationship, was it early?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm imagining it was because we have to figure out a lot of stuff and then what was the conversation?
[SPEAKER_02]: What was your plan for how you were going to build the family and did it work out that way?
[SPEAKER_00]: we had the conversation really early because my wife is older than I am.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have an age difference and she hadn't had kids, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she had had relationships before that she had not had children.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I knew that I wanted to have
[SPEAKER_00]: hits and so it's a very early conversation of is this something that you have avoided and don't want to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a really interesting thing because I wanted to be with her even if she had chosen not to have children, which I think is a really sort of earth-shattering to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like why I choose you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this moment of like even if this is not what you want to do, I still want you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still want you, which was, which was amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her response was exactly what you were, which is I just had never met someone that I wanted to have children with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 other 10 would recommend that answer to anyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm from Oklahoma, and so we like to get married.
[SPEAKER_00]: My wife jokes early and often, but so far, just early.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've just got married.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that's young.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I forgot how, when you know you know, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, it is actually interesting because I have a lot of students who are getting married in law school, I like my career students that are getting married at like 25 and 26 in law school, and that's like what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting, but marriage equality can do for a group of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: who thought I got married when I was 26.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my life again is older.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was in her 40s when we got married actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we knew we wanted to have kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we started fertility when I was 29.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thought that it would be quick and easy because I was 29.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, things I never, but you think they're going to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we ended up doing
[SPEAKER_00]: IVF and my first was like textbook, pretty easy IVF.
[SPEAKER_00]: IVF is crazy and I feel like we don't talk enough about how crazy the experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you do IVF?
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you don't we don't talk enough about like the stabbing with the needles.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you mean yourself all of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The needles and then the the thing where they the big shot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the trigger shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not, yes, we don't talk enough about this, like as a society, but how I think crazy that aside from like the trauma of like how gross it is to have the needles and then the agriculture, all of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got pregnant with my first on the first transfer and froze everybody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: What was the donor situation?
[SPEAKER_02]: What, what was your reasoning behind the path you went?
[SPEAKER_02]: All those things, those are very important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we looked at on the decision because my wife did not have a uterus by the time we were having children.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, I probably wanted to carry anyway, although pregnancy is also terrifying, and I feel like we don't talk enough about health.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, sci-fi.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy pregnancy and delivery is, but we knew what was going to be me.
[SPEAKER_00]: We did a anonymous donor because we are both lawyers and I was in queer civil rights Slop and no a lot of bat basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know all the bad stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've heard a lot of the stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bad ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: we basically try to match the anonymous donor with my wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny because then also in addition to that, in DC at the time you had, I don't know if you did that, so you didn't have to go to like this counseling session.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had to go to this social worker and basically talk about that Nancy was going to be okay that she was not biologically related to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: embryo and that which was crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was a pretty weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't I think pay for it, which sucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was annoying.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say that having spoken with as many people as I have who make this decision and and do face this um on bio connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of us do kind of freak out over that and some of us don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: The therapy, the social work that they do surrounding this this decision is
[SPEAKER_02]: You to your point really is geared towards heterosexual couples who haven't dealt with the grief knowing that they are not going to be a bio one of them will not be a bio parent whereas we've done that reef like we don't need your help we've done that grief we just have to get through it sometimes you know like it's it's a nuanced difference and it's not set up for families like ours I agree with you there 100% and and you have to pay for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, and I think that that was the issue was I think that there is something to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: This strange woman that we paid $125 to clearly had like a form basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was not was not doing much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she actually asked like the same question of like, how did you decide on the donor?
[SPEAKER_00]: German and Welsh and Irish historically, and you know, so that's what we did.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then she asked all of these awkward follow-up questions like, is your German heritage important to you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, what is the right answer in the air?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, for my first first birth that we made it an October fest theme because he was an October baby to celebrate her German heritage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have like, do your stines and consult as a joke because like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I guess it's, I guess you're dreaming.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess you're dreaming.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess you're dreaming here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess you're dreaming here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess you're dreaming here.
[UNKNOWN]: I guess you're dreaming here
[SPEAKER_00]: I think has been able to, even without any genetic connections, somehow make my children pretty aggressive east coast, even though the knowledge and Portland and there's like no genetic connection and like my little one was like two and he was like standing on their radiator looking at the window and we're in DC he was like pounding on the window and like dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he turned around and he goes, they're parking in front of my house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, I just looked at my wife and walked away and I was like, That's all you babe.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've done this.
[SPEAKER_02]: They do take our traits.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's something with nurture.
[SPEAKER_02]: over nature and and then there's also nature and but I see it too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see my kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see my wife in both of my children, even though she doesn't share a genetic tie to one of them and they both have a smart ass corpse that my wife has they have become that you know and I love it and it's great and it's super sweet and
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we could be biological connected and at the same time, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, and I think, and every once in a while, I will joke that whenever they are just because they are nervous, it's both nervous, but I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whenever they are just like a hot mess, and yeah, I'm my own clearly brand that was like crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So whenever they do something, I'll actually look at me and say, I'm going to be like, I made you that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_02]: I made this for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did that for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I love about it to you is like, like if somebody gives my daughter a compliment like if somebody's like, oh my God, she's gorgeous.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can say I know, because I got no skin in the game, I didn't make her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not like I'm like saying anything about my, I'm like, yeah, I know she is.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's so pretty, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not from me, it's not from me, so I can say, I can say it humbly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't, you know, so you can take the compliments.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just the thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a nuanced thing between, that we all share this bio slash non bio connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because most of the time, one of us doesn't have biological connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: something that needs to be talked about more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think also my wife was raised by her grandmother, primarily because her parents had her when they were super young.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she, her childhood was with what she would say, was a lot of people that weren't necessarily all biologically connected to her, but definitely she felt very parented.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that really, I don't know if it helped it, but I think it helped her sort of navigate it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I hear that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So did IVF, same donor for both because it was the same batch of IVF, and you have a lovely happy family.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do very, very funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just a funny, that's the only way that I could do, we are a funny little family.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, we're just, we're very lucky.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're very lucky.
[SPEAKER_02]: One more question I have for you before we dive into the shit storm that is the United States right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, how do you approach talking to your kids about their origin story and when did you start talking to them about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what's your just how do y'all talk about it in your house?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been really organic, which I've been really grateful for.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was not something that we were not concerned about because we did do the anonymous donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: science is amazing and the basics of how they came to be even my little one that I think I anticipated him that he would be a little more like what about the
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is it a dad and what is this?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't, I didn't want to like color his experience with it by like my own sort of like I don't want to be dominating and be like it's not a spot because it's like biologically, this is what this is and he was very sweet.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, well, I mean clearly you need that material and you need this material and that is clearly basically that is clearly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another parent, but I mean not really because you and mom are the parents, but this is just how we need it to do it and it was like this very like back away situation like it was like
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's exactly you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I'm gonna not, I think I'm not gonna, so I think it's been less fraught than I thought it would be.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I really, and it might, you know, going forward it might be fraught and I would assume that they would wanna do those sibling registries, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like that would make sense to me if they wanted to do that and I would definitely support them and doing that if they wanted to, but it has not been the difficult thing that I thought it would be.
[SPEAKER_02]: That sounds to me like you've been open and honest with them from the start about where they came from, like most of us do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, it was with books.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we started with children's books that we just read at the bedtime.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they, oh, that would have been a good idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very nice and intense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, but you do your professional, I don't know about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but I think the main thing is that we're open and honest and our kids know that they can come to us and talk to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the truth is they're going to notice, even if we don't talk about it, our kids are going to notice, oh, my moms don't have the parts that, right, my friends, parents have.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're had to be some kind of intervention.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're going to ask questions eventually.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the best thing to do is just bring it up as much as you can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Take it down to the science, like strip it away from all the stigmas that go along with baby making and just take it down so that you need a uterus, you need sperm.
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't have it, so we got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it is super cool!
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think that's a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like both of my kids are really like science-brained people and really like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just basically was like it's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And art, we lucky that we live in this time that we're able to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: It is science.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Science is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank God for science.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and it's also cute because he has my little one has one of spirit centers and he were talking and I think it was probably a couple days after the can you believe he were frozen for three years conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I walked in and she was like, I was frozen too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like 16 and she was like, I was like this super sweet interaction between the two of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've she was like, oh my god, I was I have you know, it's frozen and it's like that's what you guys get along.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: My daughter, my 12 year old has started because she knows she knows and now and we joke about it in our family.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were jokers.
[SPEAKER_02]: We joke about everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she has started doing this thing where if somebody's like being silent, like it's somebody being like whatever friends is not really talking.
[SPEAKER_02]: She'll be like she did touch.
[SPEAKER_02]: She said to her friend the other day, you're reminding me of my dad right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you why am I reminding of you about your dad because you're being so quiet like she just like makes stupid jokes about the fact that she doesn't have a dad No, I don't have a dad.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a donor, you know, like she thinks that's funny Yeah, I think that's funny our kids are all right is the point
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's take away.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the takeaway.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into this year and expert on the law and policy and the shit storm we find ourselves in can we get into this and I kind of want you to take it away and tell me what are your concerns as an expert who's watching this stuff and in policy for so long.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are your concerns?
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, what can we do?
[SPEAKER_02]: What can we do to protect ourselves?
[SPEAKER_02]: What should we do?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what should we actually be worried about?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do we not have to worry about?
[SPEAKER_02]: That was so I said, I wanted you to take it away and I just gave you like eight questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So go, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with what I'm concerned about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm concerned about 1,000 things, but to break it down a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, I think the thing that is most in your face at the moment is who is in the White House and who is controlling the legislature.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what we currently have is a president who is not facing reelection, who either doesn't understand the Constitution or doesn't care or bulls perhaps, and is supported by
[SPEAKER_00]: politics and policy making that is sort of blossoming in our Supreme Court right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everything that is happening in the Supreme Court right now has been a plan since
[SPEAKER_02]: 19 e to the project 2025 the the the fat the makers the 25 the makers of that the heritage foundation this is really doing Gloom so feel free to edit this I just it's just it's all so bad this is but this is all I can't stop I'm glued I'm plugged in 24 seven this is not normal this is not a normal way to live for us But every single day we are bombarded with something
[SPEAKER_02]: terrifying and terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I can't turn away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just this morning, the Supreme Court issued a ruling upholding, I don't know if he saw the Colorado Colorado currently banned conversion therapy for LGBTQ minors.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Supreme Court has knocked that lot down, which means that in Colorado now, you can force your kid to go to conversion therapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what concerns me is that we are living out, basically the dream agenda of the Heritage Foundation that they have been working on since 1982.
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been a really concerted, targeted effort.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've had a plan and then they found him, the mad team, they found him, they put him in that because in the place.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just policy and politics as usual.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what is deeply concerning is that because in the 80s and 90s, it was conservative politics.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was bigoted.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think of 80s and early 90s, HIV response, it was clearly a bigoted situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: What we have now is actually an anti-democratic situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what's different
[SPEAKER_00]: is I think most concerning to me is that all of these creepy, conservative policies are being used by people that want to be authoritarians.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people that don't care about democracy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the problem, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that, you know, Heritage Foundation has existed since 1980.
[SPEAKER_00]: One, 1980, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: None of that is new.
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is we now have this horrible
[SPEAKER_00]: sort of collision of romp because Trump doesn't care about Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: Trump doesn't care about no babies like what are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have this horrible collision of people that I do think are genuinely conservative for ideological reasons and care about abortion and care about all of these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That have effectively used policy to put someone in place who's now going
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be right back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Love.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, Joe.
[SPEAKER_02]: This feels like maybe a good time to drop in and talk about our sponsor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Love is love.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is also concerning we have basically no checks anymore, because the whole thing but the constitution is that you're supposed to check each other, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That like it's the
[SPEAKER_00]: push back on Congress, et cetera, and everybody is in the pocket of really, really radical folks, and they're using those radical policies to push an authoritarian agenda, which involves effing invading other countries and kidnapping other people's presence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think that's the thing is like, it seems like it's really disconnected.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like conversion therapy for minors, kidnapping the president of Venezuela, those seem really different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're all, it feeds into this like really horrible, I think strategic undermining of democracy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's by legal opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's their plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't help think of Hemades Tale.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not not that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the back of my mind, these scenes, there are scenes from the Handmaids Tale that
[SPEAKER_02]: play repeatedly for me in the back of my mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: That scare the shit out of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking of this scene at the airport where the two moms with the kid and they're like, you don't get to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't get to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not the bio parent.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't get to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember that scene?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was going to say that my wife, her thing is when the ATM cards start work in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: That one too, who at that in the very beginning in the cafe, when they're like, sorry, this doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't, you don't, you have to ask your husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were just out on a run.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, that scene chilled me to the bone and it keeps running through my head.
[SPEAKER_02]: That scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm waiting for it to happen here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm so we're living in such fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this goes to like how rapidly
[SPEAKER_00]: gone off the rails because when the hand made so when the show came out, I remember being like as is clearly sci-fi, it's clearly crazy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a wonderful commentary, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not this is not something we need to necessarily be afraid of, but then the house has to the save act, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which the save act basically has it passed the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, the house, but not the Senate, not the Senate and the same act basically says you have to have either a passport or a driver or a birth certificate with the name that's on your driver's license, which the majority of married women of a certain age who changed their name just don't have and not everybody has a passports and I've been travels internationally.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what it's going to, in effect, if it passed the Senate, what it would do is basically make it so that married women can't vote.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the been their plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's been their plan all along.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I listened to a podcast a long time ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember what it was that followed this evangelical preacher and his group.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of their things that they had been working on for 20 plus years is taking away a woman's right to vote because
[SPEAKER_02]: it negates the vote in the house if both people vote, if they vote, if they don't vote, vote the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the woman should step back and let the husband make the decision and do the voting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also the people advising J.D.
[SPEAKER_00]: Vance right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, period.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a whole white house.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one thing to have like,
[SPEAKER_00]: conservative politics and ideology impacting your politics and all of that right and it's another when it is being used by an agenda that is designed to undermine our democracy and our system of government, which is currently what's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you had asked me even five years ago, if I would have said that statement, I would have absolutely denied it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I could not have believed that I would be saying it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's where we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if we don't start saying it, if we don't start talking about how all of this is undermining civic engagement and democratic engagement and
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just screwed and I think it's one of those like it might be too late already, but we should at least try you know what I mean like yeah we also don't want this to be happening as a whole and as a people and I think that's what's also really
[SPEAKER_00]: And they don't care about the Constitution, what drives me crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything that this country's founded on, and it's funny because when I read the handmade sale in college, it was such a dystopian.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I imagined that it was on another planet.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I didn't even, and then now it's like, oh my God, everything is coming true in that novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I mean, I know we're not, we're not there yet, we're not there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully we don't get there.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of the things that are in the hands, my handmade stale that are so deeply disturbing are the lack of autonomy, the lack of control over your destiny and your body and the ability to make decisions about your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we're not putting people in those creepy robes and making them
[SPEAKER_00]: have baby babies because of environmental degradation, but we have allowed states to ban almost all forms of abortion.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are requiring and criminalizing people to have children that they can't carry or don't want to carry.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think in a lot of ways we're moving
[SPEAKER_00]: Trump administration is like blatantly the pro-natalism.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you follow that this at all, but they like really are pushing a certain type of people to reproduce and have babies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In a way that's pretty gross and also pretty consistent in West.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mussolini and Hitler, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not to draw to sort of find a point, but a lot of the language that we see out of the Trump administration sounds a lot like Mussolini as far as trying to get people to have babies for the country and it's like, It's just, it's like, it's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: there's some woman who's a very big conservative voice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know her name, but she was just speaking at something big.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then there's a video going around where she said, you know, I encourage, we have to start encouraging our young girls to have the courage to get married young and to start having babies, lots of them, even if they can't afford them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's to your point, like this rhetoric,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet they took away all the funding for those welfare moms, those mothers of color, who, well, that's what I was going to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the proper message is racist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're telling all the white women to go have all the babies and not be able to afford them.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you took away all the social services to help people do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you'll give it back if the white people do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're living through some crazy times.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not normal.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not healthy.
[SPEAKER_02]: You said, speak up like we need to say it more, we need to say it louder, we need to have these conversations and what else can we do?
[SPEAKER_02]: What can we do for our well-being?
[SPEAKER_02]: How are we going to get through this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was talking to a friend maybe a month ago now and I said like well maybe it's going to be okay and she goes you know what maybe it's not but we're still going to be here right and it was this powerful moment of like okay like we are still going to persist and I think
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a couple of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is absolutely talking about it, being sort of open to saying things out loud that seem really far-fetched.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that's the other thing is that nobody wants to be the crazy person standing on the fire scape yelling, this is fascism.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the reasons why I can actually say, I know a lot about fascism.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a lot like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think holding people accountable that are in office and saying, This is the impact of what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Empowering people to speak up and protest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the no-kings protest is really beautiful and amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think pro-democracy protest like no-kings give people a space that wouldn't necessarily be political, like big people, political, and give some space to actually go out and say, this is what I care about, and I'm not for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a really important piece because I think that what the right is banking on is
[SPEAKER_00]: This idea that well, this is just politics is usual, this is just basically how the game is played, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think really ringing the alarm bell that this is not politics is usual.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not normal and that your voice absolutely matters giving space to have conversations and let people come to the table and change.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last week, got to speak to the person who runs Brandi Carlos looking out foundation about all of the work that they have done in Minnesota and one of the things that Brandi Carlos said on stage in Minnesota was basically trump voters you've been scammed and it's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: to admit that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's okay to come to the table.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that giving space for people to change and not counting people out is really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, of my own parents, both of them are pretty conservative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Both of them, I think voted for Trump twice.
[SPEAKER_00]: My dad actually sent me this little text that he sent his congressman who because he got like he gets those like Republican text about like, look at this bill that I just did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he wrote,
[SPEAKER_00]: back in the little text.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like this credit card bill.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to dismantle the ice agency.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are doing the wrong thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like so powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when people stand up, my poor dad probably hopefully, I mean, he doesn't listen to any of this hopefully, but
[SPEAKER_00]: He's wonderful, but he is definitely not a political person, and he is starting to feel like this can't be in his name.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think giving people space and educating people about what's at stake and what is happening, and also telling people with what they can do, like you can
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely join your protest.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can text your member of Congress.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can write to your member of Congress.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also start working in your own community.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the things that's most beautiful that came out of Minneapolis is how much the community came together to get food, for example, to people that couldn't leave their house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think so much of sort of
[SPEAKER_00]: being in this sort of moment of democratic fracture is, well, how are we going to stay sane and safe?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've got to sort of lean into our mutual aid networks and start really caring for each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also,
[SPEAKER_00]: Things that seem small, I think really allow you to maintain your humanity, and I think that is a big piece of this is what the other side is trying to do is make us as not human as possible, trying to retain our own humanity through exercising compassion to ourselves and to other people is huge, and I think, you know, if you are able to be out of the authentic, that is a radical democratic action.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think being able to raise authentic children and giving your kids space to be it is absolutely radical in this moment where everyone is telling you to get in a box.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think parents that are giving kids their space that especially those parents that are fighting in Idaho in Texas every moment of every day that they say it tells their kids that they love some
[SPEAKER_02]: is radical right here that and what they want us to do and the compassion piece is is something that actually has been really coming up for me a lot lately but my last one of my most recent interviews same thing he was explaining like you know how he was judging the other side and then he finally came to a realization that we were all humans together and and they have they have the capacity to have compassion as well and but what they want
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's where we lose our power when we give into this two sides fight and it's really really hard to exercise compassion when we're hearing all this other stuff right and so I think my work right now is.
[SPEAKER_02]: to try in any instance that I can to try to exercise compassion and just see the other side and to see maybe where I can communicate together, where we can come together and it's so hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is so hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so hard, especially when, you know, basically what we're saying is you need to have compassion for people that don't have compassion for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to come to the table for people that say that you shouldn't have children, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Not everybody can do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And not everybody should do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the people that have the privilege and have the bandwidth should do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a big thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that like, it is a lot to ask.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is also what we need to do, you know, I think it's also a moment of really hard conversations with our kids, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I took my little one to my big one does not like crowds because he's very nervous by sea, but by a little one who's nervous by sea does like crowds and loves Godzilla.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it was an opportunity because I live in Portland for him to wear his Godzilla outfit to the No King's protest.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he wore his Godzilla outfit to the No King's protest.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Harriet is a little sign and it was this great moment of him being able to see what engagement looks like and what politics look like and it's Portland and so the Portland police actually were there giving out stickers and actually got down on the ground, you know, got down on his levels and thank you for being here like this is what we needed to do and it was really lovely and
[SPEAKER_00]: I was talking about Rene Good and from the back seat, he's like, people get shot protesting and it was like, they shouldn't and, you know, as a, and then you'd click into this parent mode of like, as your parent, I'm going to keep you safe and I'm going to keep you safe like, and I'm like, but also these are real conversations and
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what is that balance between this terror that we live in, and, you know, I started teaching my, I get to teach all of these first year students, Con Law 1, and my first class was like the weekend after Renee Goodwoods murdered.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was this moment of like, how am I going to get up in front of all of these, like, bright eyed, 23, 24 year olds and say, like, America is wonderful, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because I believe that it is, and we're just doing it wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is the thing is to keep believing that we are doing the right thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we just need to hold the people accountable that are doing it the wrong way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should not be in airports.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should not be in hospitals.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should not be in schools.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, carry it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are certain markers of things like that fascism and authoritarianism that we should be able to say, this is not the United States.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and right now it's all blurred, blurred lines.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm thinking of like, we have to be like, if you remember the carabers?
[SPEAKER_02]: I do, the carabers stare where they stand and align together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, like this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then their bellies protrude the love power.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they put their superpowers of love out into the world and they soften the bad guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that is really unlocked like a nice and even six memory for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, I'm here for you, Gen X, Gen X right here.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we have to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to be the care bears with the care bear stare right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what's going to combat the evil that is overtaken our country.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm getting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So care bear, be a care bear in a world of villains.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what I think that's the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like be a care bear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Understand that and invite other people to join you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we have a lot more in common than we don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: People are supporting and joining this right-wing movement because to be completely honest, they're also suffering, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They also can't pay for healthcare.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also don't have child care.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also have lost their jobs.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also are paying something and say like $6 at the pump.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the people that they think are cool that are on Fox News are giving them a really easy,
[SPEAKER_00]: group of people that they can blame.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, it is not Trump.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is that trends, 7th grade lacrosse player.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, is the reason you're paying $6 at the pump.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot easier than saying our entire system of government is sort of out of kilter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet, I think that is the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's one of the reasons why you're mutually and responding to suffering is so important and so democratic because you have to go toward that suffering and sort of figure out where you can actually connect with people and move from there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also remember that, you know, those who can be the care bears, there's who can be the helpers, be the helpers.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got to step up more so right now because there are those who cannot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so bleak.
[SPEAKER_00]: I talk about fascism all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay, but that's, this is what's on all of our minds.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not on your mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not paying attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you are not heated right now, I don't know who you are and you're clearly not my people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's bleak.
[SPEAKER_02]: And these conversations need to be had.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're not having these conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not fired up, put some fire under your ass and start paying attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: mainstream politics have done a really good job of telling people that politics and understanding government and all of this stuff is super complex.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you couldn't possibly understand like the history of like Iran and all of it and it's like, you know what, I just want people to know that you were absolutely smart enough to understand this.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other side really capitalizes on people either.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not even, I think, being episodic, but I think being bullied into thinking that politics either don't matter or they're not smart enough to do them or they're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've other things to worry about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's just really important that people know that they can totally care about things and learn about things and grasp it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go on to your library.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and raise good kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that's a big thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's good kids, which the queer community is really good at, I'll tell you that much.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's because we know, we know how to raise good kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we know how to raise kids that are fighters.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know how to raise kids that stand up for what's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that, raise good kids, keep doing what you're doing with the raising of the good kids and be a care bear in, and we're going to, we're going to get through this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, and I think, again, the act of just being authentic and being yourself and allowing your kids to be and giving space and fighting for your kids to be who they are is the most radical thing you can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so it's not all doom and terror, although it is, but it's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not because we can do it together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what I'm taking away is the queer people.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're already doing the good stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're already fighting the good fight.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just keep doing what you do in queer folks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, and we've done this before, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is my thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have this whole book that's coming out in the fall.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just that we're going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were made for this moment, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we know what it is like to have things against us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know what it's like to lean on community and to fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're a really powerful force.
[SPEAKER_00]: work together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we are going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that absolutely queer is going to save democracy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we are.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're working on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one queer person at a time and our kids and our lawyers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the queer agenda right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So tell everybody where they can find you, where they can find your book, all the things.
[SPEAKER_00]: My book is a queer guy to saving American democracy, which is going to be available for pre-order hopefully in the next couple of months.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can join a mailing list and find my podcast at queerguide to democracy.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, everybody go check it out and that'll all be linked in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wish you all the best with your book and everything that you're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And stay safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Take care.
[SPEAKER_02]: A huge thank you to our sponsors of this here episode, be parent, surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Learn more about them, find the links to their websites in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're really useful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.