WEBVTT 00:03.102 --> 00:08.892 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey friends, and welcome to a very special, best-of-series here on the Christian Parenting podcast. 00:08.912 --> 00:13.720 [SPEAKER_00]: Over the next several weeks, we're going to revisit some of the conversations that have meant the most to our community. 00:14.101 --> 00:20.352 [SPEAKER_00]: The ones that have helped us think more deeply, love our kids more intentionally and root our family is more firmly in Jesus. 00:20.686 --> 00:35.747 [SPEAKER_00]: So throughout the series, we're going to get really practical about what it means to disciple your kids in everyday moments, investing in their faith at home, letting God's character shape your parenting, building emotional health and strong boundaries, informing character and challenging culture. 00:36.408 --> 00:50.187 [SPEAKER_00]: So whether you're brand new to the podcast or if you've been with us for years, we believe these conversations are worth hearing or hearing again, because parenting with faith, wisdom, and courage is a lifelong calling and none of us are meant to do it alone. 00:50.167 --> 00:57.426 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're so grateful you're here, let's dive into today's best of episode, discipling the next generation with Jen Wilkins and J.T. 00:57.527 --> 00:57.949 [SPEAKER_00]: English. 01:04.190 --> 01:08.217 [SPEAKER_00]: We are tasked with an amazing role of discipling our kids in the Christian faith. 01:08.277 --> 01:15.789 [SPEAKER_00]: And we talk about that a lot on this podcast, because it's really important to me, and I'm really passionate about it, and I'm always trying to learn how to do that better. 01:15.929 --> 01:19.996 [SPEAKER_00]: And I assume that since you're listening and with me every week, you're probably trying to do the same. 01:20.456 --> 01:25.725 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just so glad that we get to be on this journey of learning and growing and parenting together. 01:26.178 --> 01:33.276 [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I do know is that in order to do this well, in order to disciple our kids well, we have to understand what we believe in why. 01:33.316 --> 01:35.743 [SPEAKER_00]: And we also need to be familiar with God's word. 01:36.244 --> 01:43.242 [SPEAKER_00]: And my guests today are here to talk about Bible study, theology, and why they are both important and discipling the next generation. 01:43.222 --> 01:44.604 [SPEAKER_00]: Jen Wilkin and J.T. 01:44.665 --> 01:58.690 [SPEAKER_00]: English co-authored the book, EUR Theologian, and this book addresses theological questions so that readers understand theology and become contributors to the conversation and grow and faithfulness to the great commissions call to make disciples. 01:59.171 --> 02:02.817 [SPEAKER_00]: Today, we are talking about doing that at home with our own kids. 02:02.797 --> 02:09.685 [SPEAKER_00]: JT and Jen help us understand the difference between Bible study and theology, how they work together and why both are important. 02:10.125 --> 02:13.349 [SPEAKER_00]: We also cover a lot of things about discipling the next generation. 02:13.850 --> 02:21.218 [SPEAKER_00]: Jen and JT are in different seasons of parenting kids, so their shared perspective in wisdom is encouraging and practical no matter what age your kids are. 02:21.699 --> 02:25.243 [SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy! 02:25.595 --> 02:26.897 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so fun. 02:26.917 --> 02:29.220 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm so glad to have both of you here. 02:29.280 --> 02:34.328 [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to just jump right in and start by getting to know you guys a little bit. 02:34.688 --> 02:39.175 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would love for you each to just, I don't know whoever wants to go first, is totally fine by me. 02:39.475 --> 02:45.544 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you could tell us a little bit about who you are and your families and then give us that one word or phrase to describe your family. 02:46.452 --> 03:14.383 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my I'll go first because I've got all the grown kids, but my kids have been married to Jeff for we just celebrated our 30th anniversary at the end of June and we have five children for biological and one bonus and they are all raising an age from 28 down to 23 right no 28 to 24 and so, um, 03:14.617 --> 03:20.272 [SPEAKER_03]: They're all big and though we all kind of live close to each other except for one of them. 03:20.433 --> 03:24.523 [SPEAKER_03]: And so the word that I would use to describe our family is tight knit. 03:26.288 --> 03:26.709 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 03:27.532 --> 03:28.474 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that a word? 03:29.011 --> 03:31.176 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like that we're going to get into my cheated. 03:31.276 --> 03:31.677 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 03:31.697 --> 03:31.877 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 03:31.897 --> 03:32.318 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll take it. 03:32.378 --> 03:33.260 [SPEAKER_01]: That's good count. 03:33.280 --> 03:35.325 [SPEAKER_00]: I say a word or Okay. 03:36.187 --> 03:38.051 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would get to subscribe to Wilkins Family that way. 03:38.071 --> 03:41.658 [SPEAKER_01]: They are definitely tightening it and I love the Wilkins family and all those kiddos. 03:41.679 --> 03:42.380 [SPEAKER_01]: I miss them, Jen. 03:42.420 --> 03:43.703 [SPEAKER_01]: I miss getting to hang out with him. 03:43.763 --> 03:45.627 [SPEAKER_01]: There's some of the best people on the planet in Jeff. 03:45.647 --> 03:48.353 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's killing me seeing how big your kids are getting. 03:48.535 --> 03:52.399 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh my gosh, maybe that could be the word for my family and has big like they're just growing. 03:53.060 --> 03:54.161 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's to give you a quick. 03:54.281 --> 03:58.466 [SPEAKER_01]: So my family, I've been married to Macy for 16 years as of just a few weeks ago, mid July. 03:58.506 --> 04:01.149 [SPEAKER_01]: Macy's one of the first Christians that I met. 04:01.229 --> 04:02.370 [SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't grow up in the faith. 04:02.811 --> 04:05.093 [SPEAKER_01]: She grew up a pastor's kid and she came to faith before I did. 04:05.133 --> 04:08.377 [SPEAKER_01]: And after I came to faith, she was one of the first people that helped me disciple. 04:08.397 --> 04:11.900 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk a little bit today about conversion to discipleship and she showed me. 04:12.401 --> 04:13.362 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what a Bible is. 04:13.342 --> 04:22.775 [SPEAKER_01]: And here's how to read it, and we read it together, and so I often say it, and I don't mean to continue to say it as a cliche, but my wife has taught me more about following Jesus than anybody else has. 04:23.255 --> 04:26.780 [SPEAKER_01]: Not just through writing commentaries or writing books or curriculum, because she's done none of that. 04:26.940 --> 04:29.844 [SPEAKER_01]: She just walks with joy in all of life circumstances. 04:29.884 --> 04:31.126 [SPEAKER_01]: She seeks to follow Jesus. 04:31.226 --> 04:40.238 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, so thankful for her, my wife may see, and I've got two kiddos, Thomas, John Thomas to English the fourth, so he is, we're starting a little dynasty over here in the English home. 04:40.278 --> 04:41.880 [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to raise up a monarch. 04:41.860 --> 04:44.405 [SPEAKER_03]: I love it for him to be called Quattro, but J.T. 04:44.425 --> 04:45.147 [SPEAKER_03]: never went for it. 04:45.908 --> 04:46.710 [SPEAKER_01]: I could get a quad. 04:46.730 --> 04:47.592 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to call him the quad. 04:47.692 --> 04:49.555 [SPEAKER_01]: So we got John Thomas English of fourth. 04:49.616 --> 05:00.257 [SPEAKER_01]: He just turned to eight this summer and then my little girl named Bailey she's six and we just have a dump maybe it's much of the word that describes our family, but I'll say the season we're in right now is fun. 05:00.237 --> 05:01.840 [SPEAKER_01]: like we're a fun family. 05:01.860 --> 05:27.460 [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to embrace the days that we have together, we're doing slip-and-slides and trampolines, and whiffle ball in the backyard at night, and eating pizza, and we just are really trying to embrace the season that we have knowing that these years are short, and so I think right now that we're going on lots of vacations together, we love traveling, so maybe adventurous feels like more of a not lame word like fun, but we're trying to embrace the adventure and the fun 05:28.537 --> 05:29.300 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, love that. 05:29.360 --> 05:32.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so between the two of you is just six to 28. 05:32.451 --> 05:35.220 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot of parenting experience. 05:35.501 --> 05:39.154 [SPEAKER_00]: So then I wanna know what is one thing that you want every parent to know. 05:40.417 --> 05:54.415 [SPEAKER_03]: My big parenting aha moment was when this is going to sound elementary, but when I realized that children were people, and it's not that I didn't think that it's just that I didn't necessarily think through all the implications of it. 05:54.836 --> 06:02.205 [SPEAKER_03]: And so thinking of my children not just as a responsibility, but as my neighbors and that all of the one and other commandments. 06:02.489 --> 06:06.777 [SPEAKER_03]: that are given to us regarding our neighbor, our incumbent on us toward our children. 06:06.797 --> 06:23.687 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, obviously, they're not our peers, but it does mean that we would give them the kind of sacrificial love that treats them the way that we would want to be treated, even when we're correcting or directing or any of the mundane tasks of life. 06:25.388 --> 06:26.249 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. 06:26.269 --> 06:26.450 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 06:26.470 --> 06:27.191 [SPEAKER_01]: My name is J.T. 06:27.571 --> 06:28.653 [SPEAKER_01]: Jen, that didn't sound elementary. 06:28.673 --> 06:29.374 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounded profound. 06:29.515 --> 06:31.398 [SPEAKER_01]: I really feel like mine is going to sound elementary. 06:31.418 --> 06:34.643 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think one of the things humans desire the most is faithful presence. 06:35.204 --> 06:36.105 [SPEAKER_01]: We desire that from God. 06:36.145 --> 06:38.489 [SPEAKER_01]: We desire from friendships and spouses and families. 06:39.070 --> 06:41.153 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think all of the technique. 06:41.133 --> 06:42.134 [SPEAKER_01]: you should read about it. 06:42.154 --> 06:43.957 [SPEAKER_01]: You should listen to podcasts. 06:44.057 --> 06:45.018 [SPEAKER_01]: Those things are important. 06:45.098 --> 06:49.564 [SPEAKER_01]: We want to get better and have the techniques down, but the best thing that you can do is give your kids yourself. 06:49.644 --> 06:53.249 [SPEAKER_01]: So put the phone down, put work away, and be present with them. 06:53.449 --> 07:00.578 [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing better than the presence of a dad or the presence of a mom and the presence of siblings of just being a room together and sometimes being very bored. 07:00.819 --> 07:01.099 [SPEAKER_01]: Just be 07:01.079 --> 07:24.201 [SPEAKER_01]: there with each other is something that I would say I think in the early years I tend to be very technique oriented and very programmatic and how do I do it the right way and how do I get better and again I'm not trying to diminish those things but as I've learned and I'm still a very, I don't know if I'm a young parent but in parenting I'm still young it feels like it's just man I just feel as my kids just want to be with me they want to be with me seeing and so we're trying to be with them as much as we can 07:25.632 --> 07:26.713 [SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like you're doing that. 07:26.753 --> 07:28.615 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can grow into a super tightness. 07:29.116 --> 07:30.378 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like just family. 07:30.418 --> 07:31.879 [SPEAKER_01]: We want to be the real things when we grow up. 07:31.939 --> 07:32.941 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no doubt about it. 07:32.961 --> 07:34.763 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to be the real things when I grow up, too. 07:34.843 --> 07:36.044 [SPEAKER_00]: That's definitely our goal. 07:36.244 --> 07:36.785 [SPEAKER_03]: Not going to lie. 07:36.805 --> 07:38.006 [SPEAKER_03]: We're enjoying being the real things. 07:38.087 --> 07:38.647 [SPEAKER_03]: It's been great. 07:38.847 --> 07:42.452 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, people say that they raise their best friends. 07:42.652 --> 07:44.114 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm really feeling that. 07:44.174 --> 07:46.116 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the joy of adult parenting. 07:46.216 --> 07:51.182 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, parenting or having adult children is just, and I really like those people. 07:51.442 --> 07:52.163 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah. 07:52.818 --> 07:56.407 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all the work that you put in, all the intentionality pays off. 07:57.389 --> 08:01.098 [SPEAKER_00]: Even when it's hard and also boring, like Jason's. 08:01.118 --> 08:02.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Because there are boring times or yes. 08:02.862 --> 08:03.745 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no doubt. 08:03.765 --> 08:03.925 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. 08:04.377 --> 08:07.741 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, so we are talking theology today. 08:07.781 --> 08:11.906 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we could talk just significantly about parenting, but we're in talk about theology. 08:12.326 --> 08:22.699 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and it's one of my favorite things to talk about, and not so much like the nitty gritty of theology, but just the importance of theology and the accessibility of theology. 08:22.819 --> 08:30.688 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think one thing that people get confused about is what is the difference between a Bible study and theology? 08:32.423 --> 08:48.087 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I feel like Jen and I, this is kind of us bringing two different skill sets and gifts to each other, which has been so fun to kind of partner with Jen and different projects is that Jen will die on the Bible study hill like this is the hill that she is taking. 08:48.067 --> 09:04.253 [SPEAKER_01]: Is Bible legacy and I'm so thankful for that because man, we we can't claim to know God if we don't know the secret text that he's given us and that means a study of his word intentional reading, meditation, contemplation, understanding of just the Bible and so I think 09:04.233 --> 09:21.915 [SPEAKER_01]: Jen, I've never said this in a front of you before, so you might tell me I'm wrong or them, but going on on a limb, I mean a Bible study is really kind of just, I'm not even sure what your exact definition would be like an intentional study of books of the Bible, paying specific attention to both the human, divine authors, and how the original audience would have understood it. 09:21.935 --> 09:24.098 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that a better definition? 09:24.854 --> 09:27.057 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, maybe I should start writing to Bible Studies. 09:27.077 --> 09:28.379 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never written a Bible study before. 09:29.080 --> 09:31.464 [SPEAKER_01]: My background has been more and kind of theology set of things. 09:31.504 --> 09:34.949 [SPEAKER_01]: And theology really is not to say that Bible studies doesn't do this that it does. 09:35.149 --> 09:40.657 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's beginning to draw conclusions about what the Bible says about broader categories. 09:41.078 --> 09:46.626 [SPEAKER_01]: And so as we prep study the book of Romans or Ephesians or Ruth or whatever the book might be. 09:46.606 --> 09:51.473 [SPEAKER_01]: Those books are drawing us into broader conclusions that we try to highlight in the book. 09:51.933 --> 09:55.739 [SPEAKER_01]: Because systematic theology, I think, can feel really intimidating to people, maybe distant. 09:55.779 --> 09:57.421 [SPEAKER_01]: And what is that word even mean? 09:57.501 --> 09:58.502 [SPEAKER_01]: I can do Bible study. 09:58.923 --> 10:00.385 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure I can do theology. 10:00.725 --> 10:02.528 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we're trying to diminish that. 10:02.588 --> 10:04.991 [SPEAKER_01]: And say, they're two sides of the same coin. 10:05.752 --> 10:06.994 [SPEAKER_01]: Because theology is really... 10:06.974 --> 10:12.642 [SPEAKER_01]: If you break it down, it's just answering through the lens of the Bible, life's most important questions. 10:13.403 --> 10:14.064 [SPEAKER_01]: Who is God? 10:14.665 --> 10:15.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Who are we? 10:15.606 --> 10:16.487 [SPEAKER_01]: What has God like? 10:16.688 --> 10:17.989 [SPEAKER_01]: What has gone wrong in the world? 10:18.390 --> 10:20.012 [SPEAKER_01]: How has God making things right? 10:20.853 --> 10:25.280 [SPEAKER_01]: Each of those are a doctrine, whether that's the doctrine of God, the doctrine of humanity, the doctrine of sin. 10:25.340 --> 10:27.422 [SPEAKER_01]: How has God making things right? 10:27.623 --> 10:28.784 [SPEAKER_01]: The doctrine of salvation? 10:29.205 --> 10:30.066 [SPEAKER_01]: Who do we belong to? 10:30.226 --> 10:31.268 [SPEAKER_01]: The doctrine of the church? 10:31.628 --> 10:32.830 [SPEAKER_01]: And where is everything going? 10:32.810 --> 10:33.874 [SPEAKER_01]: reduction in times. 10:33.934 --> 10:41.181 [SPEAKER_01]: And so really, you can't do good theology without good Bible study and all good Bible study really should lead to doing theology and doing well. 10:41.744 --> 10:42.145 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 10:42.428 --> 10:43.370 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the way I would say it. 10:43.410 --> 11:03.610 [SPEAKER_03]: I would sum it up to is that like most of my ministry experience has been using Bible study to point people toward the illogical truths and I would say probably JT's experiences been taking the illogical truths to point people to the Bible that's an over simplification, but that's a way to think about those two categories interacting with each other. 11:05.328 --> 11:07.291 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's really, I think it's very clear. 11:07.351 --> 11:09.094 [SPEAKER_00]: That's good, I like thank you. 11:09.575 --> 11:11.658 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Jen, you're a Bible study author. 11:12.059 --> 11:19.210 [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna live and die on the Bible study, how, apparently, so I think in general, it's easy to go find a Bible study. 11:19.530 --> 11:22.014 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can find your local church and you can join your Bible study. 11:22.795 --> 11:27.843 [SPEAKER_00]: Getting there every week and doing the homework is a whole nother situation, but finding the Bible study is easy, right? 11:28.364 --> 11:31.489 [SPEAKER_00]: But how do we study theology? 11:31.529 --> 11:32.871 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think we're, 11:32.851 --> 11:36.777 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, no matter which side you're on, you're saying they kind of go together, right? 11:36.797 --> 11:38.599 [SPEAKER_00]: But we really talk about Bible studies. 11:38.619 --> 11:40.162 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do we study theology? 11:40.242 --> 11:42.946 [SPEAKER_00]: And how do we support other people as we study theology? 11:43.106 --> 11:44.868 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, this is something that J.T. 11:44.889 --> 11:46.291 [SPEAKER_03]: and I are both really committed to. 11:46.471 --> 11:57.627 [SPEAKER_03]: And I will just point out that you can find a Bible study at your church, but if you haven't had good exposure to theological instruction, you may not know whether the Bible study you've opted into as a good one or a bad one. 11:57.607 --> 12:08.730 [SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of things that are called Bible studies that are something that's almost or not quite or is not building literacy but is giving you a big shot of emotions. 12:09.149 --> 12:19.398 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, the work of learning theology can help you to have better discernment about the ways that you are studying the Bible when you do get together with other Christians to study it. 12:19.859 --> 12:28.506 [SPEAKER_03]: Similarly to the Bible study impulse which is to gather and go through scriptures together, we want theology to happen in that way as well as should happen in community. 12:29.007 --> 12:39.156 [SPEAKER_03]: But it is absolutely true that in many churches there are not spaces where theology is being discussed in community in the way that we might gather around 12:39.136 --> 12:40.881 [SPEAKER_03]: a portion of the Bible. 12:40.941 --> 12:43.027 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's one of the things that J.T. 12:43.047 --> 12:47.900 [SPEAKER_03]: and I are committed to helping restore to the local church and so far as possible. 12:47.940 --> 12:50.407 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a big motivator for why we wrote the book. 12:50.467 --> 12:51.269 [SPEAKER_03]: You are theologian. 12:51.771 --> 12:54.799 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think churches can do better at that? 12:55.370 --> 12:59.336 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the main thing in Jen and I've talked about this in some other spaces too. 12:59.496 --> 13:11.053 [SPEAKER_01]: So my town of Walshok, into people who haven't heard us talk about it there, is we've to realize sometimes that preaching, even good Bible, Gospel Center, Docsional preaching, isn't going to form your people enough the way you want it to. 13:11.173 --> 13:13.356 [SPEAKER_01]: And Jen and I both have a very high view of preaching. 13:13.817 --> 13:14.678 [SPEAKER_01]: I spend. 13:14.658 --> 13:19.967 [SPEAKER_01]: 40 to 45 weeks of my year preaching and studying and trying to deliver God's word and a faithful way. 13:20.488 --> 13:25.456 [SPEAKER_01]: We have to realize that that moment in the life of the church, though it incredibly important isn't enough. 13:26.017 --> 13:30.044 [SPEAKER_01]: And so in some sense we're saying the Bible is a thwartative, not just preaching. 13:30.104 --> 13:35.653 [SPEAKER_01]: We want the Bible to be available and accessible in other environments, specifically active learning environments, whether it's 13:35.633 --> 13:42.523 [SPEAKER_01]: I look like a Sunday school class or kind of space like a home group or a small group community where learning is the highest stated value. 13:43.264 --> 13:50.734 [SPEAKER_01]: If you look at like Jen offers a Bible quiz sometimes to kind of highlight some of the male formation that we have run the Bible. 13:51.215 --> 13:58.485 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the same way there are organizations like the ligandier lifeway that are doing kind of theological formation and specifically as I think about parents. 13:58.465 --> 14:08.931 [SPEAKER_01]: And they think about me and I want to shape and form a biblical imagination for my kids and some theological grounding around some truths is you can't give what you don't have. 14:09.113 --> 14:18.268 [SPEAKER_01]: And so one of the things that we're hoping this book does is it gives a good biblical and theological foundation to parents who want to then go on to give that to the next generation. 14:18.288 --> 14:22.334 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the ways that we open the book is we say, you know, what a generation forgot. 14:22.354 --> 14:32.490 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're realizing there is this generational gap between some really deep theological formation from generations prior to a lack of biblical and theological formation that the current generations have. 14:32.971 --> 14:34.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we're hoping to kind of, this book 14:35.084 --> 14:50.427 [SPEAKER_01]: really just begins the conversation for people and saying, I am a theologian, and not only am I so or my kids, if my kid is a person, the way that Jen just highlighted, my kid is going to have thoughts about God, about what went wrong in the world, about who God is and what he's like, about how God is making things right. 14:50.467 --> 14:55.735 [SPEAKER_01]: And so Christian parents want to see themselves as theologians, not just because they are, but also because their kids are. 14:55.835 --> 14:59.100 [SPEAKER_01]: And they want to help their kids become thoughtful, Christian theologians as well. 14:59.350 --> 15:08.440 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk a little bit about the great commission, because you mentioned that in your book and how it's go therefore and make disciples of all nations. 15:08.840 --> 15:18.110 [SPEAKER_00]: And we always talk about discipling kids, but you really say Jesus's final command is not to make converts, but to make disciples. 15:18.150 --> 15:22.875 [SPEAKER_00]: So I want to talk about discipling kids, but first, what is the difference between a convert and a disciple? 15:22.975 --> 15:24.858 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a convert is made in an instant. 15:24.918 --> 15:27.180 [SPEAKER_03]: A disciple is made across a lifetime. 15:27.160 --> 15:39.243 [SPEAKER_03]: Not only that though, I mean, you know, that language is really important for Christian parents because so much of what I hear in Christian parenting conversations is how do I make a convert, not how do I make a disciple. 15:39.824 --> 15:49.523 [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I think there's even a little bit of a misunderstanding that we ought not to try to disciple our kids into Christian belief until we know that they are a convert. 15:50.026 --> 15:57.579 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and I would argue that Christian parents are charged with doing the work of discipleship whether or not a child ever becomes a convert or not. 15:58.040 --> 16:00.885 [SPEAKER_03]: That's what we will stand before God and give an account for. 16:00.905 --> 16:05.493 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, when you look at Deuteronomy chapter six, it says that we're about to, we're to talk about these things. 16:05.533 --> 16:09.259 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't say once your child is in, you should talk about these things. 16:09.339 --> 16:14.548 [SPEAKER_03]: It says talk about these things when you're rising up and lying down and in the wayside. 16:14.528 --> 16:21.997 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we can't, as JTA said, we cannot pass along at a good deposit to our children if we have not first received it. 16:22.237 --> 16:39.017 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we have received the gift of salvation, but some of us have never received the inheritance that goes with that, which is all of these basic truths foundational truths that Christians have agreed are the basis for Orthodox belief for centuries. 16:38.997 --> 17:02.507 [SPEAKER_03]: based on what the Bible teaches, and so when we think about discipling our children, we're talking about teaching them how to live God's way in God's world, whether or not they convert down the road, that's the kindling that we place around them, praying that's a Holy Spirit will light, and so it's not just simply telling them Jesus died for your sins. 17:02.487 --> 17:06.588 [SPEAKER_03]: It's look how fantastic God's way in God's world is. 17:06.709 --> 17:09.865 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a better choice than the other choices that are open to you. 17:10.216 --> 17:24.530 [SPEAKER_03]: And, and so watch us live it, you know, as was this JT pointed to earlier, like it's it's seeing you live it is such a is this being with them and having them want to be like you follow you as you follow Christ and passing along something that you have. 17:24.550 --> 17:36.021 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's why it matters to us that the parents in particular be equipped with theological instruction because they will be the first and the most important place that children hear this and see this in their lives. 17:38.903 --> 17:43.408 [SPEAKER_00]: I would be curious because you guys are in two different parenting stages. 17:43.448 --> 17:50.275 [SPEAKER_00]: What is discipling your kids and talking about theology it look like for each of you in your current stages? 17:51.076 --> 17:51.477 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man. 17:51.937 --> 17:54.720 [SPEAKER_01]: I hate answering these questions first, especially when Jen is here. 17:56.682 --> 17:58.444 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like she's gonna say, What are you? 17:58.524 --> 17:59.906 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm afraid you. 17:59.926 --> 18:00.026 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:00.046 --> 18:00.146 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:00.166 --> 18:01.568 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never been a dreamer. 18:01.588 --> 18:01.728 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:02.429 --> 18:06.413 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I again, this kind of even goes back to my answer earlier, 18:06.393 --> 18:34.857 [SPEAKER_01]: He's always wanted to follow technique before I wanted to just be present with my kids and I'm trying to learn that So like when my kid was when Thomas was three or four it was like I had the new city catacus map on my phone And I'm grilling him and they I'm more interested in the fact that he's like forming the word through his mouth and comprehending and I think did it like he got through like 30 of them or so and he cuz he's just a bright kid So proud of him and then we've kind of like and I still believe in the new city catacus and more utter cat Other catacus and tiny theater. 18:34.877 --> 18:35.978 [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many good 18:35.958 --> 18:38.424 [SPEAKER_01]: resources out there for parents and for young kids. 18:38.544 --> 18:39.646 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still a big believer in them. 18:39.666 --> 18:52.195 [SPEAKER_01]: We actually just wrote a story line at my past literature called storytelling wrote a storyline cataclysm for families and kids So so that's that's good, but for me this type of ship right now for my kids that might kind of take on an intellectual form in the future 18:52.175 --> 19:00.943 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it answering questions right now, like I feel like the discipleship for my kids isn't so much giving them answers to the questions I'm asking them, but asking questions. 19:01.083 --> 19:03.125 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they're just asking me questions. 19:04.786 --> 19:09.871 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a song, I can't think of them so bad with like contemporary Christian music, but there's a song out right now. 19:09.891 --> 19:11.172 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys probably know this. 19:11.312 --> 19:13.274 [SPEAKER_01]: You've already won, is a lyric. 19:13.314 --> 19:14.635 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it might be a Phil Wickham song. 19:14.655 --> 19:15.776 [SPEAKER_01]: I might be in this remembering this. 19:15.796 --> 19:17.017 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a him. 19:17.137 --> 19:22.182 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a new song that we sang at church and Thomas heard it and he said, 19:22.162 --> 19:29.392 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, Dad, that there's that song, I don't know the name of it, that says Jesus, you've already won. 19:30.376 --> 19:32.003 [SPEAKER_01]: Why is there still sin in the world? 19:33.080 --> 19:53.113 [SPEAKER_01]: If Jesus is already one, and in that moment, I realized this moment is infinitely more important than the hundred cataclysm moments that I had, because he's demonstrating curiosity, he's demonstrating inquisitiveness, he's taking the categories that I've given him, or something he heard at church, whether somebody preach it or sing it, and he's saying, but I'm not seeing that match with the world. 19:53.093 --> 19:54.375 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you help me understand that? 19:54.815 --> 19:57.459 [SPEAKER_01]: And I probably didn't take more than 15 or 20 seconds. 19:57.499 --> 20:00.824 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like a, I'm answering this question longer than I answered this question. 20:00.864 --> 20:05.731 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, you know, the good news of the gospel isn't just that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and finish it. 20:06.131 --> 20:09.216 [SPEAKER_01]: We also have hope that one day he's going to completely vanquish it when he comes again. 20:09.256 --> 20:12.100 [SPEAKER_01]: Are we so eager for him to come back and make all things right? 20:12.721 --> 20:13.802 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, yeah. 20:13.782 --> 20:14.483 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dad. 20:14.663 --> 20:18.388 [SPEAKER_01]: I want that to happen, you know, so I'm not sure if that's the right thing. 20:18.428 --> 20:21.633 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, but right now my life isn't hypercaticism at night. 20:21.713 --> 20:27.120 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just seeing them interact with God's world and ask questions about it and trying to provide answers for them when I can. 20:28.062 --> 20:28.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 20:28.442 --> 20:30.044 [SPEAKER_00]: Did he ask that question at bedtime? 20:30.064 --> 20:30.205 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 20:30.665 --> 20:31.486 [SPEAKER_00]: That's for me, okay. 20:31.546 --> 20:31.647 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 20:31.667 --> 20:32.888 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the one that was question. 20:32.928 --> 20:34.150 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, my name is Michael. 20:34.250 --> 20:34.711 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do this. 20:34.771 --> 20:35.772 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like it's a question? 20:35.792 --> 20:38.476 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, everyone has an existential crisis at 7 p.m. 20:38.496 --> 20:38.696 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 20:39.477 --> 20:39.878 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. 20:39.898 --> 20:41.180 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, of course. 20:41.420 --> 20:42.962 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 20:42.942 --> 20:55.301 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think I thought on the front end of parenting that my main job was to be ready to hold forth articulately on the most important conversations, right? 20:55.341 --> 20:59.247 [SPEAKER_03]: And this idea that there were these big conversations I was going to need to have. 20:59.227 --> 21:17.751 [SPEAKER_03]: with my kids, um, uh, specifically around faith and, and then I learned it's kind of like what JT is describing that you don't actually want big conversations, you want a thousand tiny conversations, you want to have a climate of conversation in your home about everything, including faith. 21:17.991 --> 21:29.065 [SPEAKER_03]: So that your child maybe doesn't even distinguish between the things that are not discussions of faith and the things that are, which is because, you know, the punchline would be that every 21:29.045 --> 21:35.734 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what it looks like now for us is the adult expression of what it was like their whole lives. 21:36.014 --> 21:50.833 [SPEAKER_03]: We are just always in dialogue about what we're learning, or what we're seeing, or about how a life circumstance is reshaping or impacting a belief that we held for a long time, or maybe how a belief that we started with has... 21:50.813 --> 21:55.305 [SPEAKER_03]: has grown or has changed as a result of something we read or personally met. 21:56.207 --> 21:59.515 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, it's discussing theology in community. 21:59.535 --> 22:07.135 [SPEAKER_03]: I like to say that the first home group or community group that we are ever invited into is our families. 22:07.115 --> 22:09.699 [SPEAKER_03]: And that assumes a lot about your family. 22:09.719 --> 22:11.943 [SPEAKER_03]: It assumes that it is a healthy place for dialogue. 22:12.023 --> 22:16.550 [SPEAKER_03]: But we have this concept embedded in the local church around community groups. 22:16.610 --> 22:21.498 [SPEAKER_03]: And at my church, they were called home groups, which forced me to ask the question, why is it called a home group? 22:21.638 --> 22:25.364 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, maybe because my home is supposed to be valuing community. 22:25.905 --> 22:30.372 [SPEAKER_03]: And these discussions in that space. 22:30.638 --> 22:33.726 [SPEAKER_03]: the way that they are in in my local church. 22:34.247 --> 22:41.425 [SPEAKER_03]: So when we think about home as the ultimate small group, then it changes the way that we think about the discussions that we're going to have. 22:41.793 --> 22:52.970 [SPEAKER_03]: the first place that they learned to be vulnerable, explore ideas, express doubts, talk about things that are afraid of or things that they find to be beautiful about God. 22:54.112 --> 23:03.126 [SPEAKER_03]: Those are all things that we want to encourage and to, here's the key as they get older because this is the face of JT's getting into. 23:03.578 --> 23:04.639 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not explaining. 23:04.700 --> 23:06.903 [SPEAKER_03]: You're drawing out with further questions. 23:06.923 --> 23:18.098 [SPEAKER_03]: I always call it asked don't tell and so that's what happens is they get older as you begin when they when they ask the initial question, you don't follow up with a statement, you follow up with a question to draw out what they're really asking. 23:19.781 --> 23:22.144 [SPEAKER_00]: That's so hard because I get really excited. 23:22.164 --> 23:23.406 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, let me preach. 23:23.426 --> 23:24.427 [SPEAKER_00]: I got a sermon in here. 23:24.467 --> 23:24.668 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 23:26.190 --> 23:28.874 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let me tell you that that's so good questions. 23:28.934 --> 23:31.257 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that you guys focus on questions because 23:31.844 --> 23:33.627 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was really important. 23:33.787 --> 23:36.370 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that, and I did love you and did your book. 23:36.571 --> 23:46.305 [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot, one of those things that you said at the end of your book was something along the lines of a good theologian finishes a book like this with more questions. 23:47.446 --> 23:48.868 [SPEAKER_00]: And I loved that. 23:48.888 --> 23:53.094 [SPEAKER_00]: It gives a lot of freedom to anyone reading the book, like they're not supposed to finish it. 23:53.194 --> 23:58.121 [SPEAKER_00]: And now they know everything and can explain everything perfectly to their kids. 23:58.222 --> 23:59.944 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's an invitation. 24:00.110 --> 24:01.673 [SPEAKER_00]: to ask more, to learn more. 24:02.033 --> 24:08.524 [SPEAKER_00]: And I also think it's the perfect quote for parents because parenting is listening to a million questions all day long sometimes. 24:09.085 --> 24:17.499 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we also as parents panic when our kids ask questions, because sometimes we associate questions without. 24:18.300 --> 24:21.685 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about that kind of to end our time. 24:21.705 --> 24:26.353 [SPEAKER_00]: Like why is it important to lean into asking questions when it comes to our faith? 24:27.363 --> 24:37.395 [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things we wanted to try to highlight in the book and ending the book that way is most people when it comes to theology, if they have a concept of what it is, is they're afraid to do it because they're afraid to be wrong. 24:38.036 --> 24:50.010 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they'll never begin the dialogue and then ever begin the process and they therefore won't ask questions, they'll be found out to not know or they'll be exposed as not being as the learned it as we thought they were. 24:50.050 --> 24:53.134 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we really wanted to frame this not as a 24:53.452 --> 24:56.799 [SPEAKER_01]: Theology is not unending questions. 24:57.159 --> 24:58.322 [SPEAKER_01]: Eventually the questions are answered. 24:58.342 --> 25:05.456 [SPEAKER_01]: This is why we have a high view of scripture, high view of the church community, and eventually drawing conclusions about who that is, and what he's like, and what he's doing in the world. 25:05.876 --> 25:13.772 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not unending questions, but it is to say theology really begins with questions, and it really begins with asking some of the most important questions in the world. 25:13.752 --> 25:17.740 [SPEAKER_01]: because if we were afraid to get theology wrong, we'll never start. 25:18.160 --> 25:30.624 [SPEAKER_01]: But if we can find a community where we can say this is actually a conversation and dialogue that is leading towards and leading us towards answers and towards definitive truth, then I think all people would want to begin that dialogue. 25:30.664 --> 25:35.473 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we really thought, I mean, if we just begin with, we've got answers for you, 25:35.453 --> 25:40.081 [SPEAKER_01]: come to the conversation, and then we probably would have kind of blown the listeners away, that's not what theology is. 25:40.561 --> 25:42.665 [SPEAKER_01]: But when we say, hey, join the conversation with us. 25:42.785 --> 25:44.828 [SPEAKER_01]: Be a Christian theologian, be a good theologian. 25:44.848 --> 25:50.357 [SPEAKER_01]: We're hoping that's a invitation to a lifelong dialogue and ultimately a lifelong process of learning the follow Jesus. 25:51.179 --> 25:52.000 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really good. 25:52.040 --> 25:54.344 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, do you guys before we go? 25:54.364 --> 26:01.275 [SPEAKER_00]: I want everyone to be able to connect with you, but before we do that, do you have any other words of encouragement that you want to give to parents who are listening today? 26:01.492 --> 26:04.652 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I think JT and I would both say you can absolutely do this. 26:04.914 --> 26:07.047 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to be 26:07.162 --> 26:11.148 [SPEAKER_03]: an expert in theology to begin discipling your children. 26:11.168 --> 26:15.976 [SPEAKER_03]: I jokingly will use the analogy and the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. 26:16.257 --> 26:18.640 [SPEAKER_03]: And as the parent, you are the one-eyed man. 26:18.781 --> 26:21.084 [SPEAKER_03]: And so you don't have to know everything. 26:21.104 --> 26:22.747 [SPEAKER_03]: You just need to know more than your kids. 26:22.967 --> 26:26.473 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a low bar to get started with. 26:27.234 --> 26:28.657 [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, and, but not only that. 26:28.677 --> 26:30.520 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to tell me about the welcome family, Jen. 26:30.540 --> 26:33.304 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like they're going to listen to this. 26:33.284 --> 26:46.105 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, that is what's so funny now is now like some of the kids are like, they're, they're out ahead of me on stuff and you're like, Oh, yeah, you get to find out that mom is not as sharp as you thought she was when you were six. 26:46.125 --> 26:49.150 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's actually a gratifying thing to see too. 26:49.130 --> 26:52.935 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, we want our kids to, to outrun us on, on these things. 26:53.335 --> 26:55.998 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so yeah, I would say make a start at it. 26:56.379 --> 27:07.412 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and recognize, you know, as you touched on earlier stuff, this is nothing less than a great commission calling that, um, one generation is called to tell the next of the, the glorious deeds of the Lord. 27:07.452 --> 27:09.434 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what we're, that's what we're doing. 27:09.514 --> 27:11.296 [SPEAKER_03]: We're passing on what was given to us. 27:11.416 --> 27:11.897 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, 27:11.877 --> 27:13.219 [SPEAKER_03]: Make a start. 27:13.540 --> 27:17.606 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no embarrassment or shame necessary for what you haven't learned yet. 27:17.646 --> 27:19.749 [SPEAKER_03]: You are in the majority with that. 27:19.790 --> 27:26.560 [SPEAKER_03]: You are not in the minority and the Lord welcomes those who take small steps. 27:26.640 --> 27:28.483 [SPEAKER_03]: He gives those who are faithful and little. 27:28.684 --> 27:29.565 [SPEAKER_03]: He gives them much. 27:32.127 --> 28:00.868 [SPEAKER_01]: one of the pieces of advice that I got when I was a Thomas with just, I think he used to be six seven months old and I was already thinking about like college and thinking about all of the steps to get there and one of my friends said to me, you are not the parent of an 18 year old, you're the parent of an eight month old and that really freed me to realize, okay, God is going to grow me to be the kind of parent that Thomas needs in different seasons of life and so I think that's what Jen's getting out and she says, you can do this because you're the parent of an eight month 28:00.848 --> 28:11.808 [SPEAKER_01]: And eventually we the parent of an eight-year-old and stuff as we were talking about, you know, now the parent of somebody who's almost a teenager kind of entering into some of those teenagers, here in just a few years, and God gives grace for where you're at. 28:12.088 --> 28:16.596 [SPEAKER_01]: Not as a as a like a Christian cliche bumper sticker, but as real grace, he's 28:16.576 --> 28:22.766 [SPEAKER_01]: If I could not do what I'm doing now to parent an eight and six year old, as I was doing then, and the same is true with theology. 28:22.806 --> 28:24.930 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not expecting you to be an expert on day one. 28:25.451 --> 28:28.276 [SPEAKER_01]: We're all expecting us to be amateurs when we begin. 28:28.316 --> 28:29.578 [SPEAKER_01]: And so don't let that stop you. 28:29.598 --> 28:31.341 [SPEAKER_01]: The same way, didn't stop you from becoming a parent. 28:31.761 --> 28:33.985 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't let the stop you from beginning the theological journey. 28:34.266 --> 28:36.189 [SPEAKER_01]: Journey, you're invited to be at the illusion. 28:36.229 --> 28:42.820 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's grow together in conversation, dialogue, and home groups, and churches, and families, so that we can know and love God well. 28:44.588 --> 28:45.329 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really good. 28:45.349 --> 28:45.770 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 28:45.950 --> 28:47.192 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys both so much. 28:47.773 --> 28:51.618 [SPEAKER_00]: How can everyone, how can we all connect with you and get a copy of your book? 28:52.900 --> 28:53.942 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're pretty easy to find. 28:53.962 --> 29:05.719 [SPEAKER_03]: You can find us on our podcast, Knowing Faith, or you can find me at genwilkin.net or on most social media platforms that I can have stomach using on occasion, JT. 29:06.509 --> 29:09.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Our favorite thing that we do together, at least for me is knowing faith. 29:09.052 --> 29:11.055 [SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't listened to knowing faith, it's jump on there. 29:11.075 --> 29:15.942 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a great colleague and friend where actually on a text-red called hashtag friends with Kyle Warley. 29:16.322 --> 29:19.146 [SPEAKER_01]: We're really just friends who get to talk with the Bible and theology together. 29:19.206 --> 29:25.114 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's really the place that we're trying to cultivate family of people who want to do these kinds of things together. 29:25.134 --> 29:25.875 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yep. 29:27.437 --> 29:31.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll link that on the show notes that people can find you because it's a great resource, so thank you. 29:31.342 --> 29:31.943 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Josh. 29:32.513 --> 29:34.015 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for being on you guys. 29:34.035 --> 29:37.018 [SPEAKER_00]: This was really delightful and I think it'll be really helpful for parents. 29:37.038 --> 29:37.799 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you. 29:37.819 --> 29:39.660 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for having us all on stuff. 29:40.421 --> 29:45.266 [SPEAKER_00]: I have links in the show notes to connect you a gen in JT and to get a copy of you are theologian. 29:45.727 --> 29:50.992 [SPEAKER_00]: I really loved our conversation today, but I particularly loved their emphasis on questions at the end. 29:51.813 --> 29:58.020 [SPEAKER_00]: Ask kids questions, lean in to questions, and don't feel like you need to give a super long and complete answer to every question they have. 29:58.500 --> 30:02.284 [SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm really guilty of that and so I loved which JT had to share about it. 30:02.264 --> 30:04.028 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining me today. 30:04.068 --> 30:11.185 [SPEAKER_00]: May God bless you this week and may you draw closer and closer to Christ as you study his word and learn about his heart. 30:11.205 --> 30:16.898 [SPEAKER_00]: May your home reflect his kingdom as you disciple the kids that God has entrusted you with and bless you with.