[SPEAKER_00]: I would say it is taking a total of six years for me to be on a musician's schedule.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just in 2025 where my circadian rhythm adjusted.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now for the first time in my life, I'm sleeping past 10 a.m. Whoa.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an identity crisis.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: We often define artists by their output, their records, books, movies, and the times they're on stage.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the art is made in the quiet, the struggle, and the mundane, the hours that no one sees.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm McKinna Ann.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Aaron Kramer-Hase.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the other 22 hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: An exploration of the creative life lived in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today we're featuring our conversation with singer and songwriter SG Goodman, who's critically acclaimed blend of kind of punk ethos and deep songwriting has earned her award nominations as well as opportunities to work in tour with the likes of Tyler Childers, Jason Isbull, James James of my morning jacket, countless others at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think currently upcoming she'll be touring with Jesse Wells.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this conversation is heavy on the physical and mental requirements of sustaining a heavy touring career as well as the tough realities, the complex realities of running a bona fide business off of your creative work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here is our conversation with SG Goodman.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for taking time in your busy life and spending this hour with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I've been trying to get you wrangle me wrangle you for a while about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's totally fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, just let me know if I'm bothering you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we've known each other for several years now.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was it like probably 2018?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's probably when we first cross paths.
[SPEAKER_02]: you and I were singing harmony in a backyard, I remember, and that was like, well, you put out your first record, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: So life has changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Had my house in Kentucky and moved on a whim.
[SPEAKER_00]: and to a cocoa rallies, and I had just enough money to make that work for a month, and I was like, you know what, I've never lived outside of Western Kentucky, and this opportunity came up, and I was like, alright, you know, it'll be a good experience, got down there, and that was my first year owning a house, and my property taxes, and my insurance that I do not have looped in to my mortgage came up, and I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, I can't get a job very quickly in the town I live in.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a job at Moss Talkos and was able to scramble and make my house insurance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And anyway, don't take any of financial advice for me anywhere before 2021.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you were living in Nashville renting a room and working to pay for the house that you owned back in Kentucky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because I was floating as far as like I was trying to gig out as much as I could.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mortgage, Western Kentucky, very different.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really affordable even when you're a couch surfer playing gigs for 150 bucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was able to stay afloat, you know, but when I went to Nashville and had a little bit of a
[SPEAKER_00]: and I stay there for like six and a half months actually in Nashville and you still live in that house right and Kentucky yes I can Murray can turkey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing but now you're just on the road all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I don't live anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: I live with my band and in a van and when I'm off the road and back
[SPEAKER_00]: and the acupuncturist.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's quite a cycle of, you know, always being out and being on the grind and on the hustle and then having to spend the downtime to recover.
[SPEAKER_01]: Refill the tank to then be able to leave again.
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah if it is refilled you know that's a truth but yeah like around the time we met you're right I had made demos of what would be old time feeling my kind of first major debut record and you know I really went to Nashville I like hit up a bunch of people to co-ripe I was really I think for pretty much all of my 20s I really was so hardheaded about
[SPEAKER_00]: know I want to quote unquote make it from my small town.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really want to interact with Nashville so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I say I was hardheaded because the truth is that even though I really cut my teeth and so many ways in Western Kentucky and very small amount of places regionally there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people go to Nashville to see people wanting to do what they want to do and level up what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I met so many people that would have just pivotal rows of my career and I don't regret it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I know all of Mastocos recipes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it doesn't really matter, you know, come over first and pass ol' like, yeah, can you make me that chicken tortilla soup?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause that's like, go to easy any day.
[SPEAKER_02]: So since then, from the outside looking in, you've had a career trajectory of the last few years where things have been seemingly going really well, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, been gaining attention, audience, all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk about I guess the reality of what that life has been and because I feel like you obviously have an incredible sense of humor and the way you share on social media is often sharing with a lot of laughter of like it's not all roses doing this like these incredible things are happening and also I'm operating on like two hours asleep or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you kind of share like what
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have a lot of shame around it because of how much I feel like just personality was in so many ways and, you know, mental health and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really kind of not cut out to do this completely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a homebody.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say it is taking a total of six years for me to
[SPEAKER_00]: one beyond a musician schedule.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just in 2025, where my, I guess, circadian rhythm adjusted only because I think I went to Australia and I never recovered really.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now for the first time in my life, I'm sleeping past 10 a.m. Whoa.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we don't know about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an identity crisis, is what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have fought it tooth and nail, but as you all know, when you get out of the gig and you're trying to protect your gear and not stay in a city, sometimes that means that you're not rolling in to a hotel until,
[SPEAKER_00]: One, and the morning or later, and so I've tried to accept the fact that certain parts of who I've always thought were who I am or just not, you know, I don't have a garden at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't keep a house plant alive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a girl among food or really getting to like nest or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really fall against that.
[SPEAKER_00]: All that to say certain aspects of the reality of saying yes has been really hard, but I think because I saw my first record deal, what I considered late, people are like, how long have you been doing this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I might my first record at 18, and I didn't
[SPEAKER_00]: or have an agent or any of those things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I felt like I was just so behind that I have very willingly worked myself to death.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I have my tour schedule last year was a little bit less, but I have
[SPEAKER_00]: kept on the road from pretty much the moment the pandemic lifted, you know, enough to tour.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that has been like a crazy grown experience because so much of that has stemmed from living out of scarcity.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, having friends that do this to like our friend Courtney or whatever and just being like You're going way too hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've crashed out a few times and because of that a lot of
[SPEAKER_00]: These moments that I mean of course I'm grateful for the shame comes from how is there in the physical body But maybe not the spirit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's really how it's been for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can certainly understand that especially I didn't grow up in the country, but I grew up in a rural part of Maine Which is saying a lot because Maine is pretty rural part of this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in a city But there was 10,000 people in my hometown, but I was like a city boy
[SPEAKER_01]: But all the people I grew up around, you know, are farmers and carpenters and trades people for the most part and that kind of work ethic that then translates into getting an opportunity to have a record deal or have an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like there's this really intense kind of subliminal pressure of like this is the opportunity you don't say now you do it and whatever it takes and I'll catch up later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you still feel like you're just on a flat out sprint trying to get your feet under you or do you feel more like are you driving the lawnmower or is a lawnmower driving you I guess is the Well, I'm proud to say that I'm at the state in my life where I have a little high score that mows my yard now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So really it's a
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hate it, and I took a lot out of me, and I hate it, and I like to bust his ass from time to time too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I ran a lawn care business with my brothers since I was probably 14, and then after college I actually worked for a company in my town of Murray running a weed eater 12 hours a day, so that was another identity crisis paying someone to mow my own yard.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know I mean my first mother's day when Georgia was born Aaron was like what do you want to do for your mother's day?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want me to like get you a date the spa and I was like sure, but also what I really want to do is Mo the lawn and drink a beer in the shower
[SPEAKER_03]: and Aaron was like, yes, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So poor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, you talk about your cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you talk about being on the road all the time and like, you know, the little times you're home, there's something to be said about like, coming home and mowing your yard, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to do like little house projects.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm not going to tear out a wall, but I like fixing things.
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad was a contractor growing up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I like using a saw on Hammer and getting into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, that grounds me, that makes me feel at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes me feel chill.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and so I can imagine, like, Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Getting home from tour and seeing that your lawn was just cut or, you know, know that they're coming to the next side.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's, I can imagine they might be a little person to get under your breath.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also am a big fan of house projects and I'm currently like a family member's house taking care of things, but before I left, I needed to reattach my dryer hose.
[SPEAKER_00]: It had broke under my house in my crawl space.
[SPEAKER_00]: Luckily, I'm never home to do laundry or it could have been a lot worse, but you know, it was blowing hot moisture under my house.
[SPEAKER_00]: So had to fix that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was harder than you would think, because I don't have like a basement.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I couldn't sit up on my knees or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was just lifting
[SPEAKER_00]: things to my subfloor and what I also kind of love about doing house projects is it be easier if you had all the tools which I don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a proud new owner of my first hammer drill and for those of you don't know what that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a drill that you can drill into concrete.
[SPEAKER_00]: but I didn't know how to turn on the hammer part and just drilled four holes in my center blocks for about an hour.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, well, this doesn't really make this, I mean, I got it done, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, Phil's empowering.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think just like I'm a farmer's kid so much of the work I've done all my life is really In some ways instant gratification and on that what you were Looting to about coming from that top of background that was another identity crisis when it came to music
[SPEAKER_00]: and doing all the things in artists in 2026 that doesn't blow up and get to be mysterious, such as being on social media, doing a lot of emails, all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't raised where that was looked at as work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's taken a really long time for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: to, I guess, see that, like, at least telling myself, you've worked hard today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that's taken a while to get to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can understand that, especially coming from a background farmers' yard work, where you can physically feel the work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You laid out in bed and I knew, like, I worked today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like you said, if you're sending emails all day, it's like, I mean, I would hope your fingers don't ache.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was just gonna ask you've mentioned shame a couple times do you feel that in this relationship in the relationship of like what has turned into your career now writing songs playing shows touring making records sending emails in the office work that's you know inherent in all of that just like that difference in type of work contribute to that shame at all
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say there's been some evolving acceptance of it along with that a lot of heartache because in 2020, when everybody was at home, I started working for an older gentleman out in my county on his farm, you know, I was outside so I could say away or whatever and he was like pretty recently widowed and anyway, it just felt so great to be outside and I actually
[SPEAKER_00]: three years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anytime I would come off the road, I would go straight to working back at Mr. Bob's and I think it would have been like in 2023 where my schedules just got to the point where I had to tell Mr. Bob I couldn't do that anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll still go and like work for him periodically, but having to admit to myself that I absolutely cannot sustain doing that really sucked, which has not happened this break.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually on a break right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll go back on tour and little less than two weeks because of stepping in and helping like a family member during an illness I haven't been able like fixing the vent under my house was my grounding me time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if I would consider it shame but just an acceptance.
[SPEAKER_00]: that all goes into also, it took me a really long time to not feel like an imposter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm like, nope, I'm just a touring artist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was gonna ask if part of that evolution has been also as you've built a real business.
[SPEAKER_02]: so that there's that aspect like so much of musician life can sometimes be questioning like if our work is real work because is anyone asking for it and are like they're still listening you're striving or trying in it versus if you can see on paper the bottom line that you have built you are running a real business that is pain people
[SPEAKER_02]: the other people depend on it, that kind of shift you have to start from somewhere, but I'm curious if you can speak to that as it's evolved into illegitimate business.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I still sometimes, I'm like, but we have these discussions all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that we have two kids of different shows and tours that in the past, it's like, you lose money on the road sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just how you do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the willingness to do that shifts as life changes and priorities change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then comes that other element of, is this real work?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, if it's not equating to profitability.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I understand that really deeply back to working for Mr. Bob, one of the reasons I did that was because, and this is common, I feel very fortunate that the real need to do that isn't there anymore, but for the first couple of years of touring, I didn't pay myself, essentially.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I was very fortunate to have my house in Western Kentucky, but any money that was coming to me honestly just went right back in to get in my van ready for the next tour.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm inspired to get out of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: position, and I did, but it took me a really long time to realize that I was safe enough and had built something that I could at least try to convince myself was sustainable enough to where I didn't need to hustle when I was off the road.
[SPEAKER_00]: because that's kind of when I met you, I would consider that I was hustling.
[SPEAKER_00]: I took odd jobs, I did yard work, I was always looking, you're like, oh, I can make 50 bucks doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel obviously really fortunate about that, but I also love the business side of everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: a total door with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I love having been able to create a business out of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was basically forced nearly for my mental health to get a tour manager.
[SPEAKER_00]: because that to me seemed like a very unnecessary expense.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was fine for my bandmates to make more money than me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was not fine for someone to make more money than me when I have been doing what they've done for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was killing me, having someone to come in and help in that way allows me to actually be a band mate, instead of, you know, the person who's like, no, we're not going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, you have to get up at this time and why are you late for a, you know, lobby call and actually know you took too long in the bathroom, like we have to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: all these things create very unhealthy dynamics on the road.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's tired took a really long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm still evolving as like a leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was another role I really didn't want.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that was something where, I mean, y'all know this, like tour managers, they're a big expense.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
[SPEAKER_00]: One reason why I have zero tolerance one that is not making my life easier.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you know, because it's also like the brain power that is used when you're TMing yourself and then handling all the logistics, the schedules, the booking of hotels, the checking into hotels and then there's no turning off.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're on 24-7 basically and then you're also supposed to go on stage and be able to spend all this energy like giving to an audience and then you don't turn off when you get off-stage.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no rest time when you're doing both of those jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think sometimes you cannot even realize that it's to your detriment, yes, until like long after.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I remember the last super long tour that we did as a band was before the pandemic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was several weeks and like down through Texas all up the west coast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was the first time that I was like really selling tickets.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I was running on a adrenaline of like, oh, I'm not playing to empty rooms.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is fucking awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, there's people here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we were TMing together.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were TMing together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Aaron was driving a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were doing crazy long drives.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was selling my own merch.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then late night drives.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just remember being like, this is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm so great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the pandemic hit crashing out in isolation in our house and me being like, wait.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that was healthy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, we did that one more time with a two-year-old with us and a pen and foot and I had a broken foot and that's uh, you're a member of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, just a quick pause from this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other 22 hours is an independent production built entirely on the idea that he's quiet on his conversations matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: The best way to support our work is simply to share it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you can think of one person who would appreciate this show, please pass it along.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't yet, please follow our show on your listening platform of choice or subscribe to our channel on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a small action that makes a massive difference for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get back to our conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever had bammates where you were like, I'm a pretty blunt person to my detriment?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I could call in a few that would give the real like their experience of me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think that I'm not oblivious to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: One, I'm diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have toured for six weeks straight, raw dog and life, not on medication.
[SPEAKER_00]: for a couple of years, because during the pandemic, you know, I actually had a relatively easy time when my medication ran out and I wasn't going to the doctor, whatever, my brain told me I didn't need it anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think I've been on back on medication for like two years now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But during a lot of the early stuff, teeth marks and old-time feeling, I was raw dog in it and I'm very open and honest with people who work with me about what that can look like and that even though you might not think what I'm thinking is logical, what it feels like in my body is really real for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And because of that, when you collide scarcity with mental illness that had so much to do with why I couldn't let go of the reins and I was hyper vigilant about all the details even after I had tour managers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know this sounds a little bit psychotic when I'm hiring someone, I tell them, I don't expect perfection at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the way my brain works is if you give me a reason to fear something, I'm gonna have a very hard time not always looking for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we talk about it and whatever, then I'm less likely to spend hours checking
[SPEAKER_00]: demanding that I have the point of show contact because I don't think we have all the information we need.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those things can be tough, or like my first ever North American tour, we were opening for Madison Cunningham.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd five people in my van.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd crowd funded.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was
[SPEAKER_00]: and we were allowed to tour, but a lot of shows were mask and you had to show your vaccine card.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was stressful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes when I'm under a lot of stress and unhealthy, you know, germs are an issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: So luckily, I was so fortunate my fans, people allowed us to stay in a hotel and it was one room with five people, we all got sick, they were all dudes, no offense, but you're disgusting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my OCD was like, the symptoms were very, very prominent.
[SPEAKER_00]: This comes back locally, my band for the most part, every single one of them I've known for years and years.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've dealt with me and I had to say like, you cannot take a shower before me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: like you can't, and you absolutely cannot shit in this bathroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a hotel lobby.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we're in the bathroom, I cannot come in here and water be all over the floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what y'all do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking at you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what y'all do.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like spray the water outside of the shower.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is very clean.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, listen, my current ban, their angels, but all of that back to the business with the money thing, you know, for me, I will just eat the food around or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: There were a lot of years where I was always trying to become profitable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: which meant even though it was degrading my mental health.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'd sleep four deep in a room.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though I'm psychotic about, you know, I can get that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, okay, now I have a tour manager and they want their own room.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now they can stay in my room, even though that's not healthy for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was kind of again, like, you know, the numbers were put down and you need to have your own room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I was crashing out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear it like so much self-awareness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm in therapy and one day, one day, all of my sofa awareness is going to collide with how I interact with others in real life and people are just going to, they're going to be like, damn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, what an evolved human.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm sitting here thinking that right here, which leads to my question of, did you have?
[SPEAKER_01]: help coming to this conclusion of like, no, I need to make this expense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have help from management?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have help from somebody in your band from another friend that maybe had a tour manager?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or was it just a realization?
[SPEAKER_01]: Since you are such an out of light and baking.
[SPEAKER_00]: My manager is the one who would lay down the law about I don't want you going on that cruise We were all on Kayama without a tour manager And I was like we're on a boat.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can get from one point.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know all these things like no I'm not paying someone like a cruise vacation to come here and literally walk me from this end of the you know, but guess what
[SPEAKER_00]: came in handy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but yeah, my manager and I are very close.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're very honest with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so once again, that's a team member of Mon who I've had to be really honest with about my mental state and all that type of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, he was really big into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I've been in therapy with the same therapist since 2018.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I keep that up on the road remotely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it just all comes down to being honest and even having to tell my therapist, you know, like, yeah, I actually am not on medication, you know, and when I came off the road in 2024 at the end of that year, I had like a two month break, which was the longest break I had taken in three years or more, and I got on medication again anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's been a lot of people that have encouraged me to do this, but it was hard because I felt guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt, you know, I'm not at the point in my career where I can even the majority of the time afford to get all my bandmates their own room.
[SPEAKER_00]: We try to mix it up every once in a while we can, but that like kills me because I was paranoid
[SPEAKER_00]: it would hurt my heart so bad for them to think that I was getting special treatment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm reflecting on a couple different things of one just to state the obvious of like what a fucking weird job this is because yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: What other job are you having to at your co-workers like, have all slept in the same bed with each other and like having to have conversations about like using the bathroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're so enmeshed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if you're on a bus, you're still in such close quarters sleeping literally on top of each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's just that element of even on the higher levels, depending on what your role is, you're personally so intertwined that these types of things are hard to navigate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always say there's no HR, there's nobody helping all of us navigate the social personal issues on being a touring musician.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's been the hardest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That has been the biggest point of growth and owning my own shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is the other thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: The owning your shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, we've talked about shame a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, the point isn't necessarily to like carry yourself of your complexes, your challenges, your issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: But to be able to own them.
[SPEAKER_02]: and share that and say, hey, I really struggle with this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to tell you about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Will you help me by doing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you like work with me here versus if you are just silently losing it and saving or whatever because you walk in the bathroom and it's covered in water and then you're just like, then it explodes in a different dirt.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've all been on those tours where everyone's quietly like hating each other for something.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had a base player one time that was like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I just assume that I'm annoying somebody in the van just by my existence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm turning the page of my book too loudly or chewing too loudly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a difference between like putting your boundaries on people and being like, I'm making my issue your problem and setting and communicating healthy boundaries, especially as the boss.
[SPEAKER_02]: but it's interesting because like overcoming that discomfort of being honest is uncomfortable, but I feel like on the other side it leads to so much more comfort than when we sweep things under the rug and it creates just a covertly tense experience for everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had to let people go because what I need to sustain myself, it makes you feel so selfish, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what I need to be able to actually keep doing this job, which gives everybody this opportunity.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I figure out that I cannot
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of use therapy to get my like OCD symptoms under control enough to still be working with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I've got to do the hard thing and say thank you for your time, you know, that has been a growing experience to be able to identify early.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that has been interesting about owning my mental health, I had another epiphany this year of a hard thing to accept, you know, back to being very protective of my band and their experience of me, I really hate how much I've struggled with codependency when it comes to my
[SPEAKER_00]: a really long time to think of myself as a leader in a boss, that's what you are back to like the work.
[SPEAKER_00]: This last two years has been, and it's always a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always have anxiety about it, but this has been the first time in my career where I have flown ahead of the band or flown off of the tour.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a case of bursitis in the knee.
[SPEAKER_00]: My van is named bursa after my medical condition and I have, you know, had to sometimes realize, yeah, sitting in this van out west for three weeks has taken a toll on me and know I actually don't need to take the trip back from Denver to Nashville.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to spend my money to fly me back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I have issues with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I really do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel very guilty to where it ruins my trip, you know, just this last year.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were out west and I had planned on flying back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew that I was going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was under the impression my tour manager was going to be with my band riding back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And because she wasn't, I flipped out because it made me feel more guilty to put that responsibility on my band.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really flipped out over that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But because it made the anxiety of
[SPEAKER_00]: even more loud.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is the reality is though as a front woman, my job is different.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I go to a festival, I've played Newport, PopeFest, and for an artist, especially in an album cycle, it's a whirlwind, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: One time I got to the festival at like 10 in the morning and I was like, all right, I'll see you all at about 11.30 for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last set, you know, because you're impressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all that stuff, it took me a really long time to think that no, my job description is different and that it is okay to say, I'm going to fly out of here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, or yes, I'll let you do this for me for whatever and I'm talking in circles, but I will say this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is I'm proud of myself for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This last tour out west.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, I am medicated, but I realized that my experience in the mountains.
[SPEAKER_00]: have nothing to do with being medicated or not because I've done it both ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually am incapable of not having night tears in a van with a band going down interstate five.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, through California to Oregon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I freak out, it just lodges me so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am crawling under my van every stop
[SPEAKER_00]: Being a controlling passenger, having fears of us all, the brakes going out and us all shooting off the mountain.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm about to go out on tour with Jesse Wells.
[SPEAKER_00]: It already was like, I mean, as far as what my guarantee is for pay, not a really profitable venture at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's even less now because, guess who's flying?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going down those mountains.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll never do it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will never be in a van unless I'm on vacation going 20 miles per hour.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will not do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I am proud of myself for admitting that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And guess what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I refuse to go out with this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: My headlining tour was supposed to be flipped, and I was supposed to be out with during kind of more the winter months.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been caught in an
[SPEAKER_00]: right outside of what is it San Diego, which you shouldn't really be getting a nice storm an hour out of San Diego, I'll never do it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Harry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know what is it grants pass.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what's on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Grants pass, Stevens pass.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Harry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, that's again, hence the name of the other 22 hours is like there's so many other things to consider like the real life of doing this career besides just getting to play music and people liking your music like the actual physical risk that you are taking every time you go on tour like we've driven through so many horrific storms and mountain switchbacks and we've almost crashed into moose like elk.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like terrifying.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've driven through a blizzard in September and Wyoming, and I like hurricane and Arkansas, like times where I'm like, we might die like it's been so So this is it.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, you go finally like one exit too far.
[SPEAKER_03]: And those are the moments you're like, I'm doing this to go play 90 minutes of music.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like right now, this tour would just see it's going to be an intense one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's five or six weeks through the whole United States and open a Canada.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's very different.
[SPEAKER_00]: One, I owe my van.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had to get a trailer this year, which I never have wanted to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's brought on a whole new level of paranoia, internet orders of booby traps for theft and all
[SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, it's true that people wouldn't imagine this because they're like, man, that must be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, actually, because I've done this so much and done so many different types of tours, there are things that I absolutely dread and give me up at night.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one is the fear of someone getting hurt while playing music with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was Marigoshe.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was talking to her and Jamie Harris and we have talked about this with so many people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Laurie McKenna also of like, oh, yeah, touring in Europe and like playing that festival in Denmark.
[SPEAKER_02]: So dreamy and then like the actual lived experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, can be very dreamy, but also there's like the hours on a flight.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the hours of a drive and the schlepping of gear and the paint like the dress of your guitar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they gonna?
[SPEAKER_02]: for ask your guitar.
[SPEAKER_02]: They get a lot of you fly with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so much that you're just like, wait, am I sure that this is worth it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you talk about being a band leader on the road, just simply being on tour, you're a travel agent, you're a hospitality company, you're a travel company, you're a logistics and trucking company.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a mover.
[SPEAKER_02]: Traveling sales person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're a mover.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have a retail business that you're setting up and packing up
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all the while you might be getting up on stage and your band mate, who you let drive, who, you know, get your RPMs to, to high, and they are so tired of you being like, treat it like a manual transmission.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want, we don't need to get to the four.
[SPEAKER_00]: You hear the, you listen into the engine.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I got you listening.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have a best.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's constantly driving.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Luckily for me, I've always asked the universe of called in the people who are meant to help.
[SPEAKER_00]: And luckily, my most current outfit, I have a great group of people that I love that are good drivers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to do that as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for years, I nearly drove every mile.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've was in a lot of car wrecks, none of my fault.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like, all right, we're going to take control here.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a specific art to gently and subtly having the conversation with the bandmate that's the worst driver that always wants to drive after the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's also, and you're like, I'm going to drive.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should never drive.
[SPEAKER_01]: but I don't want this to be awkward.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to hurt your feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have another four weeks out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say like, oh no, you know, the way you navigate that conversation, there's there's an attack to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where my therapy, we're still catching up to that, the tact part, a struggle with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just let a person know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen, you're going to have, you know, your scaring me, I'm so proud this last year was the first year that I have on multiple occasions laid down in the back seat of my van.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: That says a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: With a trust and being comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, you need like what I'm holding earplugs too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can just be like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not touring habits as far as creature comforts.
[SPEAKER_00]: I spare no expense.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like worth it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, lost another pair of air pods.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, that's my long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't survive without that, you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I know we're at the end of our hour, but I want it to ask we never actually got an answer because we got sidetracked about mowing lawns With your that scarcity of especially when things start going well of like you can't say no because you got to say yes to everything Are you feeling that you're currently as Aaron asks are you handling that better now or are you feeling more
[SPEAKER_02]: able to make decisions less from a place of scarcity and more from a place of kind of holistic approach.
[SPEAKER_02]: How is that presenting for you these days?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that it's an issue I have to revisit all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like with my manager and everything when it is obvious that I'm in a state of hyper-vigilance, worried about money, no I don't want to do something that like last year,
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew when I went to Europe with my full band.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was gonna be coming back in the red a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where can I make that up?
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I get back on track?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I feel like because of my relationship with my team, they'll just break it down for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: be like, you are okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're doing okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're we're well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's necessarily from a place of scarcity, but I'm a workaholic.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I really don't like to be not working.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel great about working.
[SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes yeah, the underlying thought is still from a scarcity mindset for sure and sometimes it's just because I'm just excited about what I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that answers your question definitely does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like McKinley mentioned, we'd like to be respectful of people's time, and so we wrap up our conversations the same way, which is, and you can pick which question or how you would like to answer the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's either some nugget of wisdom that somebody was shared with you along your journey that still resonates with you and keeps your cup full or something you would tell younger you that was just stepping into this as a career built on your creativity.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'll go with quote and something my manager says a lot, which is imagine what can get done if nobody is worried about who gets the credit and one, I think it will be so easy to fall into the mindset of when dealing with people on the road, your bandmates.
[SPEAKER_00]: your fans, even all this, which is, you know, you could get into like an ego place of thinking that well, this wouldn't be happening without me, you know, and what I've sacrificed and what I do for the work I put into it, but really,
[SPEAKER_00]: your BAM mates, the fans, the people willing to support you or be curious enough to give you a shot to listen and support your art when you're in the arts in a way like sure yes the songs come for me but at the same time the whole ecosystem of being able to I guess try to make a living at art really everybody has to get the credit if you keep that in mind you're not looking at who's not
[SPEAKER_00]: pull in the weight or whatever, or hold and grudges and I guess it just allows you to be just more grateful in general to everybody who has their little role and you being able to share your art.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's gonna resonate in my head for a while too for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, SG.
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you all and I don't see you in real life.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we know your time is valuable and we're greatly chose to spend this hour with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: If this conversation resonated with you, know that it is just one of many.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This shows produced by me, Mary Chaffer-based, with help from the Kalaan.
[SPEAKER_01]: And all the music he hears written, performed and produced by me as well.
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